From BBC online and relevant to a lot of discussion on here:
QuoteGAA must 'reach out' to unionism
Fermanagh GAA player and journalist Colm Bradley has said further steps should be taken to encourage unionists to play gaelic games.
The Ulster GAA Council started an initiative two years ago to entice more unionist participation in the sport but Bradley believes more can be done.
"I don't believe those documents go far enough," Bradley told the BBC.
Bradley added that "certain political language" within the GAA's rulebook should be removed.
"There are good things in the documents but more can be done," said Bradley, who is currently taking a break from intercounty football.
"First of all to educate unionists that they can be involved in the GAA and two, we have to look at some aspects of our own rules, which may need to be changed to become more accommodating.
"I should also point out that you don't have to dilute the Irishness or to dilute the gaelic culture. Some rules can be changed quite simply."
Bradley believes that the GAA should consider changing the text of its Rule 2, to the wording used prior to 1971.
"Rule Two states:'The association is a national organisation which has a basic aim of the strengthening of the national identity of a 32-county Ireland through the presentation of gaelic games and pastimes'.
"That phrase 'through the strengthening of the national identity of a 32-county Ireland' does rankle with unionism. That came in in 1971.
"Before that, the Rule (merely) talked about the 'preservation of Ireland's games and pastimes'.
"That is a lot less political but it is the exact same thing (in practical terms). You are preserving the games and pastimes which are indigenous to this island.
"I don't see how any unionist could have a problem with that - nor could anybody who has the GAA at heart could say they have a problem with that."
Bradley acknowledged that certain members of the unionist community "will never accept the GAA".
"You are never going to convert them no matter what you do.
"But I do believe (more can be done to entice others) and I'm talking about people who I know, who are of my age, who would call themselves unionist, who would also call themselves Irish.
"That is the way society is going and I think the GAA could do a little bit more to entice these people to play our games."
A regular unionist criticism of the GAA is the fact that a number of clubs and grounds have been named after former members of the IRA and other republican and nationalist figures.
There is a gaelic culture in the GAA and you don't want to remove that
Trevor Ringland
Bradley believes that clubs "shouldn't be forced" to change their names.
"Part of the problem is that people can pick an isolated case and use it as a rod to beat the GAA's back.
"Conversely, the GAA can take an isolated case of cross-community work and say:'We're doing enough'.
"Instead, there needs to be a much bigger picture looked at here."
Former Ireland rugby international Trevor Ringland said that he "welcomed" Bradley's contribution to the "ongoing debate" within the GAA.
Ringland, who has been a strong proponent of cross-community ventures in Northern Ireland for many years, said that the GAA has changed for the better in recent years.
"The opening up of Croke Park, the removal of Rule 21...those changes have had an impact and have resonated in the unionist community as well.
"There is a gaelic culture in the GAA and you don't want to remove that from the sport because that's very much at the heart of it.
"But what you maybe don't want is to have to buy into a political philosophy or a religious philosophy."
Yes but how do we do it?
Well the club I play for is Roger Casements, and to be honest if it were asked that we changed the name to something else I wouldn't mind at all. I love Gaelic games and but don't really see the point or even the good it does naming clubs after people with contentious backgrounds.
I would object to any hint of the removal of the Irish language however
They'll be looking to fly the Union Jack at our grounds next !
Whenever the protestant schools start to play gaelic, perhaps we could take these comments more seriously - at the minute the unionists are having a good laugh at our expense ?
How many policemen joined clubs after the change in rule ?
"That phrase 'through the strengthening of the national identity of a 32-county Ireland' does rankle with unionism
How has the constitution been amended now the articles 1 and 2 have been removed? Any useful wording?
Quote from: orangeman on April 01, 2008, 05:36:47 PM
They'll be looking to fly the Union Jack at our grounds next !
Why so? Or you could ask the question - Why fly any flags? Or why not just fly a GAA flag and the flags of the counties/clubs playing?
Quote from: orangeman on April 01, 2008, 05:36:47 PM
Whenever the protestant schools start to play gaelic, perhaps we could take these comments more seriously - at the minute the unionists are having a good laugh at our expense ?
How many policemen joined clubs after the change in rule ?
Who's having a laugh and why? Surely if the GAA made the first move, then schools might follow.
Have a read here also - some are willing: http://www.tribune.ie/article.tvt?_scope=TribuneFTF&id=102839&SUBCAT=&SUBCATNAME=&DT=09/09/2007%2000:00:00&keywords=logo&FC= (http://www.tribune.ie/article.tvt?_scope=TribuneFTF&id=102839&SUBCAT=&SUBCATNAME=&DT=09/09/2007%2000:00:00&keywords=logo&FC=)
Also, i'm not sure how many policemen joined clubs after the change in rule - can you let us know? I do know that they established a team of their own - did that not justify the rule change for you?
There was a whole discussion about this over on the non-GAA discussion section previously with some of our friends from OWC, and I think the upshot was that a lot of the preamble to the rule book would have to be altered in order for unionists not to take offence, which I think a lot of people didn't really mind? This point :
QuoteWhenever the protestant schools start to play gaelic, perhaps we could take these comments more seriously
has a lot of validity, as during one of those discussions it was proven that to play GAA sports at school you don't need to be a member of the GAA, as it comes under the control of the Cumann na mBúnscoil, so there was no perceived impediment, other than a distaste for Gaelic culture of course. As came up in that debate, there's a better chance of kids in Warwickshire playing GAA then most schools in the six counties.
Quote from: Mentalman on April 01, 2008, 05:48:32 PM
There was a whole discussion about this over on the non-GAA discussion section previously with some of our friends from OWC, and I think the upshot was that a lot of the preamble to the rule book would have to be altered in order for unionists not to take offence, which I think a lot of people didn't really mind? This point :
QuoteWhenever the protestant schools start to play gaelic, perhaps we could take these comments more seriously
has a lot of validity, as during one of those discussions it was proven that to play GAA sports at school you don't need to be a member of the GAA, as it comes under the control of the Cumann na mBúnscoil, so there was no perceived impediment, other than a distaste for Gaelic culture of course. As came up in that debate, there's a better chance of kids in Warwickshire playing GAA then most schools in the six counties.
Your spot on Metalman - there is nothing to stop GAA being coached in controlled schools in the North? Does anyone know if GAA coaching is currently taking place in any of these schools?
The schools thing is extremely valid.
It would prove whether there actually are large numbers of Unionists out there who would play our games.
If this happens, then lets look at changing the language of the rulebook.
Let the Unionist community who regularly claim to be excluded prove that they have an interest, through the schools, where theres no politics involved.
If the do, then lets talk.
My big suspicion is that most would never join either way, so this is their chance to prove themselves.
I don't think we need to appeal to any 'huge numbers' of people from any background to justify changes to, or to depoliticise, our sport.
Also, if you think there's no politics involved where GAA can be played in schools, you're having a laugh - you can't separate schools GAA from the organisation as a whole (and all the trappings entailed).
The European Court of human rights has today ruled in favour of a DUP amendment to protocol EU.105.112.E/B.4(N.I. 2008) that teams shall not be allowed to participate in and/or take rewards from sporting events under a different country unless those participants are resident of that area governed by the particular sporting body. This amendment is related to those sporting teams and sporting personal from the 6 counties of Ulster that fall under the jurisdiction of the flag of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
In making his judgement the esteemed Mr Iveto Drincalot has insisted that the finding of the judgement are binding and are to be made public but more importantly to be back dated to January 1st 1960 when the case was first taken to the European court by the then young Rev Ian Paisley.
The implications of this ruling are immense in that sporting results involving these team will be voided and the results amended. This will effect the Gaelic Athletic Association in particular who are expected to mount a rigorous appeal, but the road bowls, tractor reversing and pipe smoking associations are also expected to be effected and they have called a joint press conference later today to state their views and grounds for appeal.
When the ruling takes effect from April 1st 2008, the GAA sporting achievements of Armagh, Antrim, Down, Derry, Tyrone and Fermanagh will be scratched from the history books and all winning medals and memorabilia are to be returned to Croke Park. Also any photographic evidence of such successes are to be decommissioned. This will be monitored by a select committee. This committee will also enforce the removal of nicknames for particular players who have been labelled God, The Great One or simply the Great.
In effect the All Ireland Senior Roll of Honour table will be amended as follows.
1960 Kerry
1961 Offaly
1968 Kerry
1991 Meath
1993 Cork Its the only way they will win one
1994 Dublin But voided due to excess flag waving in 1901
2002 Kerry
2003 Voided due to lack of alternative champion
2005 Kerry
It will only effect Football as hurling has yet to be established successfully in the region.
There will also be a similar knock on effect for other grades like minor, U21, Ladies, and club results, meaning teams like Crossmaglen will be stripped of their 4 titles.
Tis a great day for the Kingdom bringing our title haul to 39 now.... :P
This should probably be over in the relevant thread in the general discussion board. By far the least believeable of any of today's stories.
Quote2003 Voided due to lack of alternative champion
They should give it to Donegal, who at least provided a decent game in the semi-final.
If they want to play they can, if they don't who really gives a flying f**k.
This sort of shite sickens my hole!
Quote from: orangeman on April 01, 2008, 05:36:47 PM
They'll be looking to fly the Union Jack at our grounds next !
was there not one flying in Croke Park last spring ???
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 01, 2008, 09:39:40 PM
This sort of shite sickens my hole!
Totally agree, why should we reach out? There must be some sort of Lottery/European funding involved.
How about unionism reaching out to the GAA?
An apology from Loyalists who were responsible for killing members of the Association for no other reason than they were members would be nice, for a start.
This suggestion is puerile, infantile nonsense, not worthy of serious discussion
Quote from: thejuice on April 01, 2008, 05:32:52 PM
Well the club I play for is Roger Casements, and to be honest if it were asked that we changed the name to something else I wouldn't mind at all. I love Gaelic games and but don't really see the point or even the good it does naming clubs after people with contentious backgrounds.
I would object to any hint of the removal of the Irish language however
What would you want to change it for?? Wasn't he a Knight of the realm? Sure what would unionism find objectionable about that? ;)
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on April 01, 2008, 10:07:06 PM
How about unionism reaching out to the GAA?
An apology from Loyalists who were responsible for killing members of the Association for no other reason than they were members would be nice, for a start.
To be fair, i don't think anyone is looking to reach out to hardcore loyalists - rather those who would be more moderate and more open to the idea of playing gaelic games - take Darren Graham in Fermanagah, as an example.
Also, such people (i.e. 'moderate unionists') don't have to apologise to those GAA families bereaved by loyalists, no more than 'moderate nationalists' would be expected to apologise for those killed, say in Omagh or Enniskillen. There's no logic in that argument.
I've no problems with the GAA being more welcoming to the Unionist community.
A bit of rewording would do no-one any harm. However I would be worried that there could be too many changes and would erode the 'Irishness' away too much.
Anything that gets a budding journalist column inches and the name into the mainstream. ( And to the BBC as well, as if they had'nt a big enough stick already )
What will be next for Mr Bradley, the GAAs inability provide the immigrant population with tickets for the All Ireland final ?
Total, complete and utter waste of time when you are dealing with 900.000 odd people who's very existance is based on being anti-Gaelic, the siege mentality and false principles on a tiny patch of earth on a tiny island - its a culture based on fear
They have no respect for Irish culture, people nor their national games nor music - nothing, (despite living here) and its a very very sad state of affairs
I hear people talking about how things will change in future generations of unionism - no chance - the poison is passed on like a virus, Most unionist children born today will never play any Gaelic sports as mummy or daddy will tell them not to do so, just as they were told not to do so, but there'll be the odd gutsy one - used to be one fella kicked about with me - "fenian lover" was the response from his "friends" (ironically one of those lads is now married to a "fenian"... an enlightened unionist, a rare breed indeed)
Reach out? too right - about time unionism reached out and apologised to their neighbours
When the blind hatred for ireland dies - so does Unionism - so why waste our time - it won't happen, these people are quite happy to live their 3 score years and 10 like this, too afraid to stick their heads up......... so let them - their loss
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 01, 2008, 06:47:59 PM
Also, if you think there's no politics involved where GAA can be played in schools, you're having a laugh - you can't separate schools GAA from the organisation as a whole (and all the trappings entailed).
I think your missing the point. The main reason given by those unionists who formulate a cojunt reason for not joining the GAA is preamble in the rule book mentioning an aspiration for national self determination. As such it's not a rule, but to play for a GAA club they argue, whether you like it or not, or are aware or not, you are a member, therefore you "sign on" for the organisation's aims. I think most of us were blissfully unaware of this as kids, but that's by the way side. The competitions run in the primary schools fall under the Cumann na Bunscoil, and as such there is no concept of supporting Irish national self determination, knowingly or not - it's strictly just another sport taught as part of the P.E. section of the ciriculum, if the kids are indeed allowed P.E., but that's a whole other matter - so there can be no objection to the sport in of itself. Of course naturally there is a massive cross blending of members with the GAA, but there doesn't have to be - I myself played hurling for along time for my school before I ever got involved with a club. Like I said I'm in favour of reform of the rule book, and I think irrespective of Unionists intentions to take our sports onboard - I think the vast vast majority have none, and if I were a Unionist I probably wouldn't either - we should make the change, if only for our own sake. Now culturally, that's another matter, but to trying to make Gaelic football and hurling, well, non-Gaelic...that's just a contradiction in terms.
Bradley's piece seems very reasonable to me.
Quote from: Mentalman on April 01, 2008, 11:55:47 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 01, 2008, 06:47:59 PM
Also, if you think there's no politics involved where GAA can be played in schools, you're having a laugh - you can't separate schools GAA from the organisation as a whole (and all the trappings entailed).
I think your missing the point. The main reason given by those unionists who formulate a cojunt reason for not joining the GAA is preamble in the rule book mentioning an aspiration for national self determination. As such it's not a rule, but to play for a GAA club they argue, whether you like it or not, or are aware or not, you are a member, therefore you "sign on" for the organisation's aims. I think most of us were blissfully unaware of this as kids, but that's by the way side. The competitions run in the primary schools fall under the Cumann na Bunscoil, and as such there is no concept of supporting Irish national self determination, knowingly or not - it's strictly just another sport taught as part of the P.E. section of the ciriculum, if the kids are indeed allowed P.E., but that's a whole other matter - so there can be no objection to the sport in of itself. Of course naturally there is a massive cross blending of members with the GAA, but there doesn't have to be - I myself played hurling for along time for my school before I ever got involved with a club. Like I said I'm in favour of reform of the rule book, and I think irrespective of Unionists intentions to take our sports onboard - I think the vast vast majority have none, and if I were a Unionist I probably wouldn't either - we should make the change, if only for our own sake. Now culturally, that's another matter, but to trying to make Gaelic football and hurling, well, non-Gaelic...that's just a contradiction in terms.
I'm not missing the point at all. I fully understand the difference in the organisation's structures. It's perception that matters - as far as most are concerned, the GAA is the GAA, whether it's being organised and played through schools, clubs or counties. Therefore, if there are obstacles at any level, there are obstacles at all levels, percieved or actual.
Quote from: Bensars on April 01, 2008, 11:01:03 PM
Anything that gets a budding journalist column inches and the name into the mainstream. ( And to the BBC as well, as if they had'nt a big enough stick already )
What will be next for Mr Bradley, the GAAs inability provide the immigrant population with tickets for the All Ireland final ?
Agreed Bensars and as someone said earlier this sort of shite really sickens my hole ! ( I think that was Pints )
Quote from: orangeman on April 02, 2008, 09:46:03 AM
Quote from: Bensars on April 01, 2008, 11:01:03 PM
Anything that gets a budding journalist column inches and the name into the mainstream. ( And to the BBC as well, as if they had'nt a big enough stick already )
What will be next for Mr Bradley, the GAAs inability provide the immigrant population with tickets for the All Ireland final ?
Agreed Bensars and as someone said earlier this sort of shite really sickens my hole ! ( I think that was Pints )
To be fair he wrote an article in the GPA magazine which was carried in the Irish Independent on Monday. I haven't read it though. Anyone able to give a link to the full article?
This old peach again .Don't people know that both side's are as bad as each other and the majority have a never,never ,never attitude. Waste of time bringing it up or discussing it. ::)
I was surprised to see Bradley had an article in the GPA magazine with the indo on monday. He has been staunchly anti gpa. I suppose as someone intimated previously young journalists can be mor mercenary than most when they're trying to sell their wares. The GPA magazine wasvery good by the way.
I beg to differ Gnevin. Is it just me or are we sitting back whilst our whole organisation is beginning to bend over backwards for everyone except the actual people that matter ie their own members. The GAA was established as we all know to promote national self determination and culture within our society. This was fully inclusive of all society and involved Unionism. It was never stated that Unionists were to be excluded from anything. I am well aware that the political situation has changed, I could also see why some sections of Unionism are highly interested in the GAA. But i also would have some Unionist friends that go regularly to GAA games and feel as much a part of the organisation as myself. Any issues or obtacles that Unionism have ( bearing in mind it ain't actually unionism that is raising this issue) they have created themselves. The GAA has always kept the same rules for the organisation and by nature is a conservative organistion. A change to the term national self determination would be an absolute farce asthe issue of National self determination is crucial to the GAA. If the GAA were to get into financial trouble in the morning it would be the members that would be ask to bail it out. These members should therefore always be at the centre of every major decision made within the GAA. I don't think this is happening at the moment, the fat cats are rulling undemocratically and it is just possible they would ammend the issue at hand and disguise it as pressure from the peace process.
Unionism is a completely different ideology compared to Nationalism. Within it there exists different beliefs and traditions so it could be discribed as an umbrella movement. I don't expect to walk into anyones house and start telling them how to arrange their furniture. It is possible to live within our own boundaries, Unionists are as welcome as the next fella to play gaelic games and to become a member of the organistion. But they must respect the rules of the institution that has stood for many years. To be honest any unionists that are involved in Gaelic do respect these. It is the attention seekers within our organsition and those ignorant to the principles of the GAA that usually challenge them. To even suggest amendments to the GAA for this reason is an insult to the men that have given their lives for their culture and to presserve the identity that exists today.
The naming of the clubs has risen to the top of the pile again i see. Gaelic clubs are predominantly named after people that were influential in Irish history. This is again a part of our culture and to suggest that we turn our backs on this is once again an insult to these men. Wolfe Tone ( a protestant) was very nationalsitic in his aims and actions, Michael Davitt and others were higly influential figures in the formation of the GAA and were very much so nationalistic. These people should have teams named after them, but to suggest that these names are to get one up on the enemy is a complete misinterpretation. They are what they are, names given in honour of Irish heroes that have been influential in the past . We need to unite as a organistion and make it clear that our values are not there to surpress anyone but to ensure what we have remains fore front to our families and society in general.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 10:41:06 AM
I beg to differ Gnevin. Is it just me or are we sitting back whilst our whole organisation is beginning to bend over backwards for everyone except the actual people that matter ie their own members. The GAA was established as we all know to promote national self determination and culture within our society. This was fully inclusive of all society and involved Unionism. It was never stated that Unionists were to be excluded from anything. I am well aware that the political situation has changed, I could also see why some sections of Unionism are highly interested in the GAA. But i also would have some Unionist friends that go regularly to GAA games and feel as much a part of the organisation as myself. Any issues or obtacles that Unionism have ( bearing in mind it ain't actually unionism that is raising this issue) they have created themselves. The GAA has always kept the same rules for the organisation and by nature is a conservative organistion. A change to the term national self determination would be an absolute farce asthe issue of National self determination is crucial to the GAA. If the GAA were to get into financial trouble in the morning it would be the members that would be ask to bail it out. These members should therefore always be at the centre of every major decision made within the GAA. I don't think this is happening at the moment, the fat cats are rulling undemocratically and it is just possible they would ammend the issue at hand and disguise it as pressure from the peace process.
Unionism is a completely different ideology compared to Nationalism. Within it there exists different beliefs and traditions so it could be discribed as an umbrella movement. I don't expect to walk into anyones house and start telling them how to arrange their furniture. It is possible to live within our own boundaries, Unionists are as welcome as the next fella to play gaelic games and to become a member of the organistion. But they must respect the rules of the institution that has stood for many years. To be honest any unionists that are involved in Gaelic do respect these. It is the attention seekers within our organsition and those ignorant to the principles of the GAA that usually challenge them. To even suggest amendments to the GAA for this reason is an insult to the men that have given their lives for their culture and to presserve the identity that exists today.
The naming of the clubs has risen to the top of the pile again i see. Gaelic clubs are predominantly named after people that were influential in Irish history. This is again a part of our culture and to suggest that we turn our backs on this is once again an insult to these men. Wolfe Tone ( a protestant) was very nationalsitic in his aims and actions, Michael Davitt and others were higly influential figures in the formation of the GAA and were very much so nationalistic. These people should have teams named after them, but to suggest that these names are to get one up on the enemy is a complete misinterpretation. They are what they are, names given in honour of Irish heroes that have been influential in the past . We need to unite as a organistion and make it clear that our values are not there to surpress anyone but to ensure what we have remains fore front to our families and society in general.
Original aim of the GAA , don't see any nationalist baggage their.
1. To foster and promote native Irish pastimes
2. To open athletics to all social classes
3. To aid in the establishment of hurling and football clubs which would organise matches between counties
current aim
A National organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity of a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic games and pastimes.
See the difference
Quote from: Gnevin on April 02, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
Original aim of the GAA , don't see any nationalist baggage their.
1. To foster and promote native Irish pastimes
2. To open athletics to all social classes
3. To aid in the establishment of hurling and football clubs which would organise matches between counties
current aim
A National organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity of a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic games and pastimes.
See the difference
GNevin,
thanks for pointing that out.
Do any of you naysayers think that the GAA, or any GAA member became more Iriish, more Nationalist, or more Gaelic when the aims were changed as a knee jerk reaction to the troubles in 1971?
If the original wording was good enough for 90 years, and is seen as non divisive, why not revert to it?
Imho, it would be
One less imaginary stick to beat us with.
One more example of the GAA doing the right thing in contributing to a lessening of the divide in our society.
One less excuse for bigots on the Unionist side who are resisting efforts by some in their community to allow gaelic games into NI's state schools.
A theme among a few here is to see gaelic games as belonging to nationalist only, as "our games", etc.
Why shouldn't Unionists be encouraged to see them as their games as well?
What Bradley doesn't seem to be able to grasp is the fact that most Unionists hate all things Irish or perceived to be Irish, including the language (look at their strident opposition to an Irish Language act for example), GAA, etc.
Therefore no amount of tinkering to the GAA's constitution will make a blind bit of difference to their attitude.
I know a fair few protestant/unionists (of the liberal variety) and they happily watch GAA games.
Let the status quo prevail. The GAA has already done more than enough to make itself more acceptable.
Quote from: T Fearon on April 02, 2008, 11:22:58 AM
What Bradley doesn't seem to be able to grasp is the fact that most Unionists hate all things Irish or perceived to be Irish, including the language (look at their strident opposition to an Irish Language act for example), GAA, etc.
Therefore no amount of tinkering to the GAA's constitution will make a blind bit of difference to their attitude.
I know a fair few protestant/unionists (of the liberal variety) and they happily watch GAA games.
Let the status quo prevail. The GAA has already done more than enough to make itself more acceptable.
Are you lost Mr Fearon, just follow this link and you'll be back where you belong
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=5300.0 ;)
Lads most of what Bradley says makes sense to me and I feel that the GAA should focus on Irish/Gaelic culture and leave the politics aside. We can't afford to ignore any section of society in Ireland. I'd have a fear that as we move towards a normalisation in the north that nationalists will start to play more Rugby and soccer at the expense of the GAA, while the GAA will not attract those of a Unionist perspective and so the organisation will contract. Maybe this will not happen, but being honest the GAA is too important to be burdened by political baggage.
Promote Gaelic culture, the language, the games etc but we can I think leave the politics aside.
Quote from: snatter on April 02, 2008, 11:11:12 AM
Quote from: Gnevin on April 02, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
Original aim of the GAA , don't see any nationalist baggage their.
1. To foster and promote native Irish pastimes (which can include unionists)
2. To open athletics to all social classes All inclusive of society
3. To aid in the establishment of hurling and football clubs which would organise matches between counties Currently done
current aim
A National organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity of a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic games and pastimes. ( I have no issues with this statement. If you look at Rugby Union which is endorsed by unionism it also recognises the 32 county aspect.See the difference
[/b]
For someone who said it wasn't worth discussing Gnevin you are taking a keen interest now ;) We could all go in and dig up technical terms and the actuall officiall speeches but then again we could just have an opinion on it. The GAA was based on nationalism and the promotion of nationals identity and culture. Obviously the wording changed over the years with the partition of Ireland and the other influential issues but the main goal still remains the same. To preserve national passtimes, status and culture. I fail to see how this infringes on the rights of Unionists. Unionists are quiet welcome into the GAA where they will experience no sectarianism and i will certainly never attempt to put anyone down. However they cannot expect to have an input into the running of an organisation which they have no intention of being part of simply because it goes against the ideology of Unionism. But like it or not the GAA is linked to the ideology of nationalism. So common ground between this and Unionism is going to be difficult to find. So in my eyes it is not a major issue because there is no massive demand for it to happen. Even if there was it shouldn't be changed because there is nothing wrong with the current setup regarding the issue at hand.
Quote from: scalder on April 02, 2008, 12:08:22 PM
Lads most of what Bradley says makes sense to me and I feel that the GAA should focus on Irish/Gaelic culture and leave the politics aside. We can't afford to ignore any section of society in Ireland. I'd have a fear that as we move towards a normalisation in the north that nationalists will start to play more Rugby and soccer at the expense of the GAA, while the GAA will not attract those of a Unionist perspective and so the organisation will contract. Maybe this will not happen, but being honest the GAA is too important to be burdened by political baggage.
Promote Gaelic culture, the language, the games etc but we can I think leave the politics aside.
well said scalder.
Assuming peace holds, the reality is that we'll be increasingly in competition to get players.
Tony Fearon - you shouldn't inpterpret a miniscule token percentage number of unionists who currently attend/participate in gaelic games as anything other than a failure on the part of the GAA to market itself to Unionists.
Yes, a sizeable percentage of Unionists will always reject gaelic games becasue they are Irish.
But many will not.
Once convinced that the GAA is not a cold house, and that nothing in its rules could be construed as conflicting with their Unionist political viewpoint, they, or their children, might be more pre-disposed to taking an involvement.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 12:15:06 PM
Quote from: snatter on April 02, 2008, 11:11:12 AM
Quote from: Gnevin on April 02, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
Original aim of the GAA , don't see any nationalist baggage their.
1. To foster and promote native Irish pastimes (which can include unionists)
2. To open athletics to all social classes All inclusive of society
3. To aid in the establishment of hurling and football clubs which would organise matches between counties Currently done
current aim
A National organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity of a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic games and pastimes. ( I have no issues with this statement. If you look at Rugby Union which is endorsed by unionism it also recognises the 32 county aspect.See the difference
[/b]
For someone who said it wasn't worth discussing Gnevin you are taking a keen interest now ;) We could all go in and dig up technical terms and the actuall officiall speeches but then again we could just have an opinion on it. The GAA was based on nationalism and the promotion of nationals identity and culture. Obviously the wording changed over the years with the partition of Ireland and the other influential issues but the main goal still remains the same. To preserve national passtimes, status and culture. I fail to see how this infringes on the rights of Unionists. Unionists are quiet welcome into the GAA where they will experience no sectarianism and i will certainly never attempt to put anyone down. However they cannot expect to have an input into the running of an organisation which they have no intention of being part of simply because it goes against the ideology of Unionism. But like it or not the GAA is linked to the ideology of nationalism. So common ground between this and Unionism is going to be difficult to find. So in my eyes it is not a major issue because there is no massive demand for it to happen. Even if there was it shouldn't be changed because there is nothing wrong with the current setup regarding the issue at hand.
So its more important to you that gaelic games are played by nationalists only?
To me, the survival and properity of games depends oon as many people as possible playing/supporting them.
I don't give a stuff if gaelic games' followers are nationalist/unionist/revolutionary communist, whatever.
Obviously you do.
Any other groups of people out there that you'd like to exclude?
Would you exclude the Alliance party's Ards representative, Kieran McCarthy for example.
The Alliance party are unionist, so under your rationale, he shouldn't be anywhere near galeic games.
QuoteAssuming peace holds, the reality is that we'll be increasingly in competition to get players
with the greatest of respect, what a load of bollocks !
Local Soccer ( the Fermanagh and western ) is a more glorified pub league. Very poor standard.
Rugby has only ever attracted a few, And if anything they should be trying to attract more nationalists
Many gaelic players have played these in the past and it has had little or no impact on our games. If you look at clubs around tyrone and armagh ( only highlighting these based on recent successes) on a saturday morning you could have 100+ kids from 6 to 12 all playing away.
Peace process is not the reason they are playing.
Quote from: Bensars on April 02, 2008, 12:36:53 PM
QuoteAssuming peace holds, the reality is that we'll be increasingly in competition to get players
with the greatest of respect, what a load of bollocks !
Local Soccer ( the Fermanagh and western ) is a more glorified pub league. Very poor standard.
Rugby has only ever attracted a few, And if anything they should be trying to attract more nationalists
Many gaelic players have played these in the past and it has had little or no impact on our games. If you look at clubs around tyrone and armagh ( only highlighting these based on recent successes) on a saturday morning you could have 100+ kids from 6 to 12 all playing away.
Peace process is not the reason they are playing.
OK, now move the focus to our towns and cities, where there is more choice.
The GAA are failing miserably already.
How much worse will it become when the divides are broken down further.
As things stand, the numbers of Nationalists playing organised rugby/soccer for the first time will dwarf the reverse flow of unionists playing gaelic games.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 01, 2008, 10:49:53 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on April 01, 2008, 10:07:06 PM
How about unionism reaching out to the GAA?
An apology from Loyalists who were responsible for killing members of the Association for no other reason than they were members would be nice, for a start.
To be fair, i don't think anyone is looking to reach out to hardcore loyalists - rather those who would be more moderate and more open to the idea of playing gaelic games - take Darren Graham in Fermanagah, as an example.
Also, such people (i.e. 'moderate unionists') don't have to apologise to those GAA families bereaved by loyalists, no more than 'moderate nationalists' would be expected to apologise for those killed, say in Omagh or Enniskillen. There's no logic in that argument.
Couldn't agree more - Mr. Graham is a fine example alright ! ;)
Lads with all due respect, complacency about soccer and rugby is dangerous. This side of the border they are getting more organised and I'm sure this will happen up north too.
Im from a town and played both. First love was gaelic.
The option was always there. Never had an impact.
I get the point the your trying to make, however the continuing success of the GAA will not depend on the number of Unionists prepared to play Gaelic games.
The inner city has never been the stronghold of the GAA. probably never will, however there is life outside of cities whereby the GAA is the fabric of the community.
Why all the crying about getting unionists involved? What about those who in their thousands will be looking for Ulster final tickets or all ireland tickets.
what about getting them involved.
IMO there is far too much political correctness about. Change all these rules at the slightest hint that someone may be offended ( who by the way , most likely will find something else to be offended by ) and it still wont make a blind bit of difference.
As i said earlier, an oppurtunist piece by Mr Bradley
Quote from: Bensars on April 02, 2008, 12:58:46 PM
Im from a town and played both. First love was gaelic.
The option was always there. Never had an impact.
I get the point the your trying to make, however the continuing success of the GAA will not depend on the number of Unionists prepared to play Gaelic games.
The inner city has never been the stronghold of the GAA. probably never will, however there is life outside of cities whereby the GAA is the fabric of the community.
Why all the crying about getting unionists involved? What about those who in their thousands will be looking for Ulster final tickets or all ireland tickets.
what about getting them involved.
IMO there is far too much political correctness about. Change all these rules at the slightest hint that someone may be offended ( who by the way , most likely will find something else to be offended by ) and it still wont make a blind bit of difference.
As i said earlier, an oppurtunist piece by Mr Bradley
We have changed enough - what more is wanted / needed and as Bensar rightly says, it won't make any difference. We've got rid of the sticks by virtue of the rule changes - we don't need further change - membership is open to everyone - so join if you want to - don't join if you don't want -
But if Protestants / Unionists are serious about it, start playing Gaelic ganmes in their schools as a sign of their desire / commitment to join up with us - Catholic schools have been playing soccer and rugby for years now - when are Protestant schools going to start playing Gaelic games ????
Why does Bradley write an article on this subject ?? It mighn't receive the right response and it might be politically incorrect !
I don't think anyone is advocating "changing all the rules" but I think focusing on Gaelic culture would be positive. Irish dancing I believe (from the media) has made big inroads in unionist areas and shows that they can look past something's "Irishness" and get involved. Why should we bother, well 1 million reasons, you just can't ignore or alienate that many people and hope to be a healthy organisation. Just like the GAA has invested heavily in games promotion in Dublin a similar effort is required with the Unionist community. We need to atleast have a debate about how to achieve this. Lack of true cross community involvement weakens the GAA and is a strength of Rugby in Ireland. Another point is that soccer looks like moving to an All Ireland league and maybe an All Ireland team, when this happens again the game will become more popular within the nationalist community.
Lets look at what the obstacles are, lets be honest and lets have a mature debate.
Quote from: scalder on April 02, 2008, 01:11:55 PM
I don't think anyone is advocating "changing all the rules" but I think focusing on Gaelic culture would be positive. Irish dancing I believe (from the media) has made big inroads in unionist areas and shows that they can look past something's "Irishness" and get involved. Why should we bother, well 1 million reasons, you just can't ignore or alienate that many people and hope to be a healthy organisation. Just like the GAA has invested heavily in games promotion in Dublin a similar effort is required with the Unionist community. We need to atleast have a debate about how to achieve this. Lack of true cross community involvement weakens the GAA and is a strength of Rugby in Ireland. Another point is that soccer looks like moving to an All Ireland league and maybe an All Ireland team, when this happens again the game will become more popular within the nationalist community.
Lets look at what the obstacles are, lets be honest and lets have a mature debate.
Are we not a healthy organisation at the minute ?
Are soccer and rugby engaged in the same mature debate ??
From what I saw at the weekend invloving soccer fans in Belfast, I don't think we'll lose too many to soccer !
I know the GAA make some fundamental flaws, but we're a better organisation than we're given credit for !
I would love to find away to get greater numbers of unionists involved if only to increase our playing talent and resources.
This is a difficult debate to fathom. A lot of contributers are nationalist minded people trying to 2nd guess their unionist neighbour's minds (a conflict most likely to lead to misinterpretation).
I tried to look outside football for other models where unionist were attracted to something Irish. Irish dance came immediately to mind. Here you have the case of the 'festival' dance movement catering for great numbers of unionist kids who's parents it seems had little difficulty allowing them joining in something Irish.
Its wrong to assume all unionists are blinkered bigots. I agree there are plenty hard noses who never will acknowledge the good done by the GAA, but I believe there exists a greater number who, given the right opportunities, could become interested. In my own experience, and I played with and against several unionists in my time, such players come under great pressure from with their own political community not to be associated with the GAA particularly if they are any good.
Quote from: In the Onion Bag on April 02, 2008, 01:30:33 PM
I would love to find away to get greater numbers of unionists involved if only to increase our playing talent and resources.
This is a difficult debate to fathom. A lot of contributers are nationalist minded people trying to 2nd guess their unionist neighbour's minds (a conflict most likely to lead to misinterpretation).
I tried to look outside football for other models where unionist were attracted to something Irish. Irish dance came immediately to mind. Here you have the case of the 'festival' dance movement catering for great numbers of unionist kids who's parents it seems had little difficulty allowing them joining in something Irish.
Its wrong to assume all unionists are blinkered bigots. I agree there are plenty hard noses who never will acknowledge the good done by the GAA, but I believe there exists a greater number who, given the right opportunities, could become interested. In my own experience, and I played with and against several unionists in my time, such players come under great pressure from with their own political community not to be associated with the GAA particularly if they are any good.
Forgwt about them then ! If they don't want to join us fine ! Let's not go runnig after them - we don't need them !
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 12:15:06 PM
Unionists are quiet welcome into the GAA where they will experience no sectarianism
Have you been living under a rock?
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 12:15:06 PM
So in my eyes it is not a major issue because there is no massive demand for it to happen. Even if there was it shouldn't be changed because there is nothing wrong with the current setup regarding the issue at hand.
You can
create demand. In order to survive, you have to plan ahead. I wouldn't be too happy if i thought the top brass at HQ were sitting back, blindly content that things will float along fine without change. It doesn't work in business and it sure as hell won't work in an organisation as big as the GAA.
Yes, the GAA is traditionally a conservative organistion - indeed conservation is a fundamental element of its objectives - yet it also has to be progressive, forward-looking and not be content that the status quo is sufficient to ensure growth, survival even, in the future. The thought that there is 'nothing wrong with the current setup' is seriously flawed, in my opinion.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 02, 2008, 01:42:22 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 12:15:06 PM
Unionists are quiet welcome into the GAA where they will experience no sectarianism
Have you been living under a rock?
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 12:15:06 PM
So in my eyes it is not a major issue because there is no massive demand for it to happen. Even if there was it shouldn't be changed because there is nothing wrong with the current setup regarding the issue at hand.
You can create demand. In order to survive, you have to plan ahead. I wouldn't be too happy if i thought the top brass at HQ were sitting back, blindly content that things will float along fine without change. It doesn't work in business and it sure as hell won't work in an organisation as big as the GAA.
Yes, the GAA is traditionally a conservative organistion - indeed conservation is a fundamental element of its objectives - yet it also has to be progressive, forward-looking and not be content that the status quo is sufficient to ensure growth, survival even, in the future. The thought that there is 'nothing wrong with the current setup' is seriously flawed, in my opinion.
Where ARE you living ? Where is the sectarianism in GAA ?
That's a load of balls Maguire 01 - Did you see the TV at the weekend and that handling with Linfield and Cliftonville ??
We don't want any of that shite that goes hand and hand with soccer ! Were you not listening to Nolan y'day morning ?
Quote from: orangeman on April 02, 2008, 01:47:48 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 02, 2008, 01:42:22 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 12:15:06 PM
Unionists are quiet welcome into the GAA where they will experience no sectarianism
Have you been living under a rock?
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 12:15:06 PM
So in my eyes it is not a major issue because there is no massive demand for it to happen. Even if there was it shouldn't be changed because there is nothing wrong with the current setup regarding the issue at hand.
You can create demand. In order to survive, you have to plan ahead. I wouldn't be too happy if i thought the top brass at HQ were sitting back, blindly content that things will float along fine without change. It doesn't work in business and it sure as hell won't work in an organisation as big as the GAA.
Yes, the GAA is traditionally a conservative organistion - indeed conservation is a fundamental element of its objectives - yet it also has to be progressive, forward-looking and not be content that the status quo is sufficient to ensure growth, survival even, in the future. The thought that there is 'nothing wrong with the current setup' is seriously flawed, in my opinion.
Where ARE you living ? Where is the sectarianism in GAA ?
That's a load of balls Maguire 01 - Did you see the TV at the weekend and that handling with Linfield and Cliftonville ??
We don't want any of that shite that goes hand and hand with soccer ! Were you not listening to Nolan y'day morning ?
The sectarianism i was referring to was the Darren Graham affair - discussed to death here and in the media and particularly relevant to this subject. The idea that there is no sectarianism is therefore not accurate, nor can winsamsoon guarantee that unionists "will experience no sectarianism" - hence my comment.
Why the comparison to local soccer? Surely we in the GAA should set our standards a lot higher than that! If you're making that comparison, are you saying that the GAA would be Linfield and Cliftonville, the outsiders, would be the Loyalists? If you are, i wouldn't be very happy with such a comparison. If you're not, accept my apologies and please explain what you mean.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 02, 2008, 01:59:12 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 02, 2008, 01:47:48 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 02, 2008, 01:42:22 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 12:15:06 PM
Unionists are quiet welcome into the GAA where they will experience no sectarianism
Have you been living under a rock?
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 12:15:06 PM
So in my eyes it is not a major issue because there is no massive demand for it to happen. Even if there was it shouldn't be changed because there is nothing wrong with the current setup regarding the issue at hand.
You can create demand. In order to survive, you have to plan ahead. I wouldn't be too happy if i thought the top brass at HQ were sitting back, blindly content that things will float along fine without change. It doesn't work in business and it sure as hell won't work in an organisation as big as the GAA.
Yes, the GAA is traditionally a conservative organistion - indeed conservation is a fundamental element of its objectives - yet it also has to be progressive, forward-looking and not be content that the status quo is sufficient to ensure growth, survival even, in the future. The thought that there is 'nothing wrong with the current setup' is seriously flawed, in my opinion.
Where ARE you living ? Where is the sectarianism in GAA ?
That's a load of balls Maguire 01 - Did you see the TV at the weekend and that handling with Linfield and Cliftonville ??
We don't want any of that shite that goes hand and hand with soccer ! Were you not listening to Nolan y'day morning ?
The sectarianism i was referring to was the Darren Graham affair - discussed to death here and in the media and particularly relevant to this subject. The idea that there is no sectarianism is therefore not accurate, nor can winsamsoon guarantee that unionists "will experience no sectarianism" - hence my comment.
Why the comparison to local soccer? Surely we in the GAA should set our standards a lot higher than that! If you're making that comparison, are you saying that the GAA would be Linfield and Cliftonville, the outsiders, would be the Loyalists? If you are, i wouldn't be very happy with such a comparison. If you're not, accept my apologies and please explain what you mean.
There was more to that story than was told in the papers !
I don't want to be lifiting a paper every Sunday and the GAA getting bad press as a result of spurious allegations being made against protestants - I'm not saying we as an organsiation are perfect - far from it - but we're not too bad nad have this far without any help or input from others ( in fact some would say we've got this far IN SPITE of a lot of aggro etc etc ) !
Ah now Orangeman, are you saying we should not encourage protestants to join the GAA as it might lead to opportunities for sectataian incidents to occur??
Quote from: Bensars on April 02, 2008, 12:58:46 PM
Im from a town and played both. First love was gaelic.
The option was always there. Never had an impact.
I get the point the your trying to make, however the continuing success of the GAA will not depend on the number of Unionists prepared to play Gaelic games.
The inner city has never been the stronghold of the GAA. probably never will, however there is life outside of cities whereby the GAA is the fabric of the community.
Why all the crying about getting unionists involved? What about those who in their thousands will be looking for Ulster final tickets or all ireland tickets.
what about getting them involved.
IMO there is far too much political correctness about. Change all these rules at the slightest hint that someone may be offended ( who by the way , most likely will find something else to be offended by ) and it still wont make a blind bit of difference.
As i said earlier, an oppurtunist piece by Mr Bradley
I presume you have read the article in the GPA Player magazine Bensars - can you post a link to it? Can anyone post a link to it?
So its more important to you that gaelic games are played by nationalists only?
To me, the survival and properity of games depends oon as many people as possible playing/supporting them.
I don't give a stuff if gaelic games' followers are nationalist/unionist/revolutionary communist, whatever.
Obviously you do.
Any other groups of people out there that you'd like to exclude?
Would you exclude the Alliance party's Ards representative, Kieran McCarthy for example.
The Alliance party are unionist, so under your rationale, he shouldn't be anywhere near galeic games.
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Bensars
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Posts: 784
Re: GAA must 'reach
Where in my posts did i say taht i didn't want any other groups apart from nationalists playing gaelic games???
I simply stated that the organisation as a whole is based around a nationalistic ideology. This will innevitably then clash with the ideology of Unionism especially in the north. Let's not forget we have southern Unionists too and there doesn't seem to be any mention of these particular section of Unionism. I would agree with the snatter. The organisation as a whole needs to sit down and decide how as an organisation we can promote our games to all of society. Unionism should not be singled out as a sole identity because society today consists of many other diverse groups. Negotitions should not begin by automatically calling for changes within the wording and culture of the GAA that has existed for years. Firstly there has to be an interest from the other groups in society and secondly they would have to show a willingness to accept the GAA as an organistion that is based on sport alone and takes nothing to do with politics. After all that is what the organisation claims to be " separate form politics".
Maguire i have been involved in the GAA all my life and i have never seen any incidents of sectarianism whatsoever. You talk about slatting all Unionists with the same brush. All organisations have a element of scumbags. This minority behaviour obviously rose to the fore in fermanagh from what i can gather from the media. This doesn't mean that the whole organisation is sectarian. Come on now lets get a grip. Everyone is welcome in the GAA but no one should be able to come in and dictate terms of their involvement. When i joined the GAA i knew what it was and i had to accept this. It has a lot of flaws as does any big organisation and as members we are entitled to object or agree with whatever issue. Also maguire if you read it properly i said there was nothing wrong in my opinion with the current set up on this particular issue not the organisational set up as a whole.
Everyone is welcome in the GAA but no one should be able to come in and dictate terms of their involvement
If they like what we do, join us - if they don't - no problem !
Lads its not about allowing people to dictate to us, its about are their changes required to make it more attractive to a section of the population and if so are these changes we are prepared to make. I know this won't happen but I want to win over person in Ireland to the side of Gaelic Games, of course we have to retain our soul and not to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Quote from: scalder on April 02, 2008, 02:57:49 PM
Lads its not about allowing people to dictate to us, its about are their changes required to make it more attractive to a section of the population and if so are these changes we are prepared to make. I know this won't happen but I want to win over person in Ireland to the side of Gaelic Games, of course we have to retain our soul and not to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Right Scalder - you tell us what changes you'd make to see if we think they'd work ! So let's hear them !
I'm not saying I have any of the answers, I said "if their were changes required" – I suppose instead of trying to second guess our unionist compatriots it would be best to do some research as to their attitudes and beliefs in relation to the GAA.
Quote from: scalder on April 02, 2008, 03:32:50 PM
I’m not saying I have any of the answers, I said “if their were changes required” – I suppose instead of trying to second guess our unionist compatriots it would be best to do some research as to their attitudes and beliefs in relation to the GAA.
Bollox to that ! ;)
scalder i don't think anyone is against change but at what price does change come about? Sometimes if we change even the slightest thing the knock on effect can be massive. A good example would be the changes to rule 21 and 42 (separate arguments) . I agree that the GAA needs to reach out to all sections of our community but you cannot tamper with the foundations and morals of an organisation . You run the risk of offending the very loyal people that have kept the organisation going for so long. I don't see anything wrong with individuals groupings in society having separate cultures and identities. We can't all be the same, we would be like robots so there is no need for all of society to become one. There seems to be too many people trying to bring everyone together as one when it is quiet clear everyone is different. This seems to be a world wide thing, where everyone must live in peace and harmony. It is as natural for people not to get on with each other as it is for them too get on. Every individual should have a choice and the GAA is fully open to all sections of the community. In life we can't please everyone so lets just get on with what we like and let the rest of them worry about their problems. If the other sections of society want to join us they are more than welcome but i really don't see it as a big problems for the GAA.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 03:42:31 PM
scalder i don't think anyone is against change but at what price does change come about? Sometimes if we change even the slightest thing the knock on effect can be massive. A good example would be the changes to rule 21 and 42 (separate arguments) . I agree that the GAA needs to reach out to all sections of our community but you cannot tamper with the foundations and morals of an organisation . You run the risk of offending the very loyal people that have kept the organisation going for so long. I don't see anything wrong with individuals groupings in society having separate cultures and identities. We can't all be the same, we would be like robots so there is no need for all of society to become one. There seems to be too many people trying to bring everyone together as one when it is quiet clear everyone is different. This seems to be a world wide thing, where everyone must live in peace and harmony. It is as natural for people not to get on with each other as it is for them too get on. Every individual should have a choice and the GAA is fully open to all sections of the community. In life we can't please everyone so lets just get on with what we like and let the rest of them worry about their problems. If the other sections of society want to join us they are more than welcome but i really don't see it as a big problems for the GAA.
Very depressing reading this thread lads, a lot of 'not an inch' and don't want a prod about the place attitudes.
re the bit of winsam's post i've highlighted, as Gnevin and snatter have already stated the wording of the preamble was changed in 1971 under very different circumstances than pertain today so why not change it back?. A bit like Jack Lynch's stand idly by speech of around the same time it was only a bit of bluster to avoid actually doing anything.
Quote from: passedit on April 02, 2008, 03:52:12 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 03:42:31 PM
scalder i don't think anyone is against change but at what price does change come about? Sometimes if we change even the slightest thing the knock on effect can be massive. A good example would be the changes to rule 21 and 42 (separate arguments) . I agree that the GAA needs to reach out to all sections of our community but you cannot tamper with the foundations and morals of an organisation . You run the risk of offending the very loyal people that have kept the organisation going for so long. I don't see anything wrong with individuals groupings in society having separate cultures and identities. We can't all be the same, we would be like robots so there is no need for all of society to become one. There seems to be too many people trying to bring everyone together as one when it is quiet clear everyone is different. This seems to be a world wide thing, where everyone must live in peace and harmony. It is as natural for people not to get on with each other as it is for them too get on. Every individual should have a choice and the GAA is fully open to all sections of the community. In life we can't please everyone so lets just get on with what we like and let the rest of them worry about their problems. If the other sections of society want to join us they are more than welcome but i really don't see it as a big problems for the GAA.
Very depressing reading this thread lads, a lot of 'not an inch' and don't want a prod about the place attitudes.
re the bit of winsam's post i've highlighted, as Gnevin and snatter have already stated the wording of the preamble was changed in 1971 under very different circumstances than pertain today so why not change it back?. A bit like Jack Lynch's stand idly by speech of around the same time it was only a bit of bluster to avoid actually doing anything.
Are you reading posts I'm not reading ? Where are you getting that from ?
I'd say you and me are reading this thread a bit differently all right Orangeman. I could do a sammyg type post with quotes the whole way down the page but if you can't see these yourself there's little point.
So what we basically seem to be coming down to is one of two opinions:
(i) Unionists have no interest in our sports either way, so lets not bother changing. More or less it's not broke, so let's not fix it.
(ii) Let's change to remove any perceived impediment to Unionists playing our games, and then it's up to them.
If those are the choices then I've got to go for (ii), I've got to believe in the possibility of change. I just don't see it as capitulation, when you deal with and eliminate the objections of your opponents, you are not only exposing the reality of their position, but you also strengthen your own. BTW there seems to be a good bit of interchanging between the words Unionist and Protestant in the discussion. This is a political issue, not a religious one - Protestants already feel free, and some do, play our sports, Unionists however don't feel the same.
I feel we should do the right thing, and tidy up any anomalies, simply because it is the right thing to do, and to reinforce internally the fact that the GAA's aims are about promoting Irish culture, and Irish games. Lose the political stuff because it's not really relevant to the modern GAA.
If by doing that unionists happen to feel more welcome, well great. The more the merrier. I wouldn't be trying to make the association anti-Irish or anything, but if we go back to the original, and still the true, aims of the association, fostering the gaelic games, trying to foster the language and the music via Scór etc, and the unionist community then sees it as more welcoming to them, grand.
If they don't see it as that, or have an 'anti-Irish' hatred, well that's grand too. It's up to them. You can't make people like anything.
As I said, do it because it makes sense to do it for the GAA, and let the other stuff take care of itself.
Having thought about it a bit more, I'm actually against it. Feck it, lets insert the Proclamation into the constitution. I just realised that a pile of young Unionists could join and inflict more misery on the rest of us talking about how Ulster football is great!!! :D
If unionism as a political force has such a problem with the GAA then no amount of changing anything will make a difference.
Let's face it, the only barrier to unionists playing GAA sports is in their own minds.
I notice other nationalities on the island are not nit-picking, they are just getting on with playing the games
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 02, 2008, 05:41:01 PM
I feel we should do the right thing, and tidy up any anomalies, simply because it is the right thing to do, and to reinforce internally the fact that the GAA's aims are about promoting Irish culture, and Irish games. Lose the political stuff because it's not really relevant to the modern GAA.
If by doing that unionists happen to feel more welcome, well great. The more the merrier. I wouldn't be trying to make the association anti-Irish or anything, but if we go back to the original, and still the true, aims of the association, fostering the gaelic games, trying to foster the language and the music via Scór etc, and the unionist community then sees it as more welcoming to them, grand.
If they don't see it as that, or have an 'anti-Irish' hatred, well that's grand too. It's up to them. You can't make people like anything.
As I said, do it because it makes sense to do it for the GAA, and let the other stuff take care of itself.
Having thought about it a bit more, I'm actually against it. Feck it, lets insert the Proclamation into the constitution. I just realised that a pile of young Unionists could join and inflict more misery on the rest of us talking about how Ulster football is great!!! :D
Exactly what I was thinking. Lads with names like Norbert and Reginald banging on about the Tyrone minors in Ulster-Scottish-ese!
Indeed - we won't dilute our games or our association be depoliticising.
Some people here are obviously very conservative. The 'not an inch' reference made by 'passedit' doesn't have to be explicit - it can be read between the lines on a number of posts on this thread. If that's your position, fair enough - but if you believe in it, don't get offended when someone else points it out.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 02:24:32 PM
Maguire i have been involved in the GAA all my life and i have never seen any incidents of sectarianism whatsoever. You talk about slatting all Unionists with the same brush. All organisations have a element of scumbags. This minority behaviour obviously rose to the fore in fermanagh from what i can gather from the media. This doesn't mean that the whole organisation is sectarian. Come on now lets get a grip.
I don't believe i said the whole organisation was sectarian - please provide my quote if i did.
It's obviously positive that you've never seen any sectarianism in the GAA, and also that you'd be welcomeing to any Protestants/Unionists willing to join your club. At a guess, i'd imagine there aren't any in your club at the minute, so it's unlikely you'd have witnessed sectarianism. All i was trying to say is that you can't guarantee that there would be no sectarianism in the GAA. Either way, that's getting off the argument, but i felt i had to clarify what i had said previously.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 02, 2008, 03:42:31 PM
scalder i don't think anyone is against change but at what price does change come about? Sometimes if we change even the slightest thing the knock on effect can be massive. A good example would be the changes to rule 21 and 42 (separate arguments) . I agree that the GAA needs to reach out to all sections of our community but you cannot tamper with the foundations and morals of an organisation . You run the risk of offending the very loyal people that have kept the organisation going for so long. I don't see anything wrong with individuals groupings in society having separate cultures and identities. We can't all be the same, we would be like robots so there is no need for all of society to become one. There seems to be too many people trying to bring everyone together as one when it is quiet clear everyone is different. This seems to be a world wide thing, where everyone must live in peace and harmony. It is as natural for people not to get on with each other as it is for them too get on. Every individual should have a choice and the GAA is fully open to all sections of the community. In life we can't please everyone so lets just get on with what we like and let the rest of them worry about their problems. If the other sections of society want to join us they are more than welcome but i really don't see it as a big problems for the GAA.
Winsamsoon , you are very clearly anti change
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on April 02, 2008, 06:59:39 PM
If unionism as a political force has such a problem with the GAA then no amount of changing anything will make a difference.
Let's face it, the only barrier to unionists playing GAA sports is in their own minds.
I notice other nationalities on the island are not nit-picking, they are just getting on with playing the games
And of course ,your speaking as a member of the orange order and the GAA ,yes?
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on April 02, 2008, 06:59:39 PM
I notice other nationalities on the island are not nit-picking, they are just getting on with playing the games
Yes, because the political issues in question mean the exact same to them as they do to northern protestants..... oh wait. ::)
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 02, 2008, 07:33:08 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on April 02, 2008, 06:59:39 PM
I notice other nationalities on the island are not nit-picking, they are just getting on with playing the games
Yes, because the political issues in question mean the exact same to them as they do to northern protestants..... oh wait. ::)
As I said, if they are nit-picking over nationality issues, they probably wouldn't play the sport... oh wait ::)
Its all a moot arguement anyway - anyone who thinks that by tinkering with the seams of the GAA (risking alienating people by changing club names etc...) that there will be some kind of wholescale shift in Unionism over to the GAA is living a dream - there might be a few thousand brave souls .....but thats it
As someone else said above - whats all this palaver about anyway?, we can all live together in peace, but don't have to play the same sports.
Its almost as if there are hundreds of thousands of unionists just waiting for the right circumstances to join up, champing at the bit to get tore into the Dubs and their cohorts in Meath.........there isn't, and fair enough
QuoteIts all a moot arguement anyway - anyone who thinks that by tinkering with the seams of the GAA (risking alienating people by changing club names etc...) that there will be some kind of wholescale shift in Unionism over to the GAA is living a dream - there might be a few thousand brave souls .....but thats it
As someone else said above - whats all this palaver about anyway?, we can all live together in peace, but don't have to play the same sports.
Its almost as if there are hundreds of thousands of unionists just waiting for the right circumstances to join up, champing at the bit to get tore into the Dubs and their cohorts in Meath.........there isn't, and fair enough
That may be true enough but we shouldn't just shrug our shoulders and accept almost 1/5 of the people of this island paddling their own sporting canoe. Soccer is as widely played by Nationalists as it is by Unionists and rugby is expanding out of its traditional bases. We too must always be willing to look at how we can attract people from outside our traditional bases. While I do see the GAA as more than a sporting organisation I'm not sure making some of the changes that Unionists want will dilute its cultural significance.
Quote from: Zulu on April 02, 2008, 09:57:00 PM
QuoteIts all a moot arguement anyway - anyone who thinks that by tinkering with the seams of the GAA (risking alienating people by changing club names etc...) that there will be some kind of wholescale shift in Unionism over to the GAA is living a dream - there might be a few thousand brave souls .....but thats it
As someone else said above - whats all this palaver about anyway?, we can all live together in peace, but don't have to play the same sports.
Its almost as if there are hundreds of thousands of unionists just waiting for the right circumstances to join up, champing at the bit to get tore into the Dubs and their cohorts in Meath.........there isn't, and fair enough
That may be true enough but we shouldn't just shrug our shoulders and accept almost 1/5 of the people of this island paddling their own sporting canoe. Soccer is as widely played by Nationalists as it is by Unionists and rugby is expanding out of its traditional bases. We too must always be willing to look at how we can attract people from outside our traditional bases. While I do see the GAA as more than a sporting organisation I'm not sure making some of the changes that Unionists want will dilute its cultural significance.
Why not? its reality, same as aussie rules is big in only certain areas of OZ and it seems to do quite well alongside rugby and cricket
No big issue really - if folk don't like GAA games - thats it, nothing you can do about it - waste of time
This will have no effect at the moment because, despite the fact we've eventually got a working Assembly in the North, a lot of Unionists don't accept our Irishness and Nationalism as their equal. I guarantee, if we asked Unionism to tell us what the impediments are that will allow them to partake in our Association I have no doubt they'll tell us. But experience also tells us that, even if we implemented the change as they wanted it fully they'll keep changing the goalposts for the next 20 years - it took the guts of 25 years from Sunningdale to the GFA and subsequently another 10 years to get the damn Assembly working in a format that is acceptable to most of the 6 counties. I have no problem tiding any controversial language up and making it more politically correct, but a revolution won't lead to solving the problem overnight, gradual evolution - the trickle effect if you will - is the only way to go if you want to keep your base happy as well as attracting more unionists in. I'll be honest, I'd rather have the apathy most Unionists hold us in now than the hostility they had for us 20 years ago. Who's to say what the situation will be in another 20 years?
Maybe it's because it's late at night and I can't sleep, but is anyone else suspicious about the timing of this piece? I mean a few days after the soccer semi-final in Belfast and the following attack by suspected Linfield supporters.
Quote from: ziggysego on April 03, 2008, 03:06:24 AM
Maybe it's because it's late at night and I can't sleep, but is anyone else suspicious about the timing of this piece? I mean a few days after the soccer semi-final in Belfast and the following attack by suspected Linfield supporters.
well considering the original article was out on Monday morning in magazine form I wud doubt there is anything suspicious going on
I know a few lads from places like Comber, who would be interested in Gaelic games to a point, but I know they are a bit uncomfortable with it at the same time. I don't think they're comfortable enough to go to watch games yet.
They maybe from the Unionist community and are big NI fans and all, but they are not die-hard Unionists. Sure they may not be in favour of a united Ireland, but they like sport, I consider them good friends too. Its these kind of people we can attract to the games, by just removing the "32 county identity" stuff.
Since most people in the South and in Nationalist areas up North aren't even aware of these parts of the rule book and at the moment its only function is turning unionists away, then why is it there.
Also alot of this stuff makes no sense outside of Ireland. Its too inward thinking. The GAA in Britain, USA and else where needs to establish itself in those native to these countries and a rulebook thats all concerned with Irish nationalism may have a point in Ireland but useless elsewhere.
can someone also explain to me, if you really love Gaelic games why would you walk away from it, just because they changed the Nationalist lines in the rule book, is it just because of the nationalist ideal that keeps some people involved??
Firtsly Gnevein i am not against change in any form as you have stated. However i think in order for change to occur there must be certain factors. These would include demand for the sport, proper negotiations and a Compromise between all parties involved. The problem i have with this is all the negotiations are one way as is the compromise. Both Nationalsim and Unionism are almost at the complete opposites of the poltical scale so finding common ground is going to be different. The GAA, a nationalsitic organisation cannot remove nationalsitics themes from it's rule book or in general because this would be a complete contradiction of terms. The Nationalistic themes were never included to cause offense and this still remains the case.
Secondly Maguire i can actually think of several protestant members of my GAA club and i can say without a shadow of a doubt they have never experienced any form of sectarianism and they feel as much apart of the club as anyone else.
Quote from: believebelive on April 03, 2008, 04:06:59 AM
Quote from: ziggysego on April 03, 2008, 03:06:24 AM
Maybe it's because it's late at night and I can't sleep, but is anyone else suspicious about the timing of this piece? I mean a few days after the soccer semi-final in Belfast and the following attack by suspected Linfield supporters.
well considering the original article was out on Monday morning in magazine form I wud doubt there is anything suspicious going on
Prehaps not, but maybe that's why the BBC took the story and ran with it.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 03, 2008, 10:43:19 AM
Firtsly Gnevein i am not against change in any form as you have stated. However i think in order for change to occur there must be certain factors. These would include demand for the sport, proper negotiations and a Compromise between all parties involved. The problem i have with this is all the negotiations are one way as is the compromise. Both Nationalsim and Unionism are almost at the complete opposites of the poltical scale so finding common ground is going to be different. The GAA, a nationalsitic organisation cannot remove nationalsitics themes from it's rule book or in general because this would be a complete contradiction of terms. The Nationalistic themes were never included to cause offense and this still remains the case.
Secondly Maguire i can actually think of several protestant members of my GAA club and i can say without a shadow of a doubt they have never experienced any form of sectarianism and they feel as much apart of the club as anyone else.
So remove the political and find common ground on via sport
Gnevin in an ideal world it would be great to say that politcs can be removed from sport but it simply isn't possible. Whether we like it or not ( and i don't) the political climate does effect the sporting arena. This happens on a world wide basis. Described as war without the guns in some circumstances. Unionists and Nationalists have a poltical mindset that will have an influence on absolutely everything they partake in. The GAA will be no different when it comes to this.
Ziggy i wasn't sure what you were talking about there until your second post and you could have a point. Maybe this story was used to sort of sweep under the carpet the violence at the Irish Leagues games.
as for the psni GAA team - and what league do they play in,how often do they train...so they are actually an annual 'play' rather than a live club.
Its just for show. bad example - next...
If the GAA was that bad - would protestant people like Darren Graham play Gaelic games in the first place.
No the problem is not really with the GAA, it is with the head in the sand mindset of unionism.
Maybe some tweaks could be made, but not until the important issues have been dealt with (policing problems)
and wholesale integration has occurred as unionsts at last engage with nationalists and the road to unification.
Then it would be time to look at the sporting issues and this one of trying to appeal to the cross
border cross denominational population. Its pointless before then.
GNevin - both sides are as bad as each other ? (thats a load of mis-informed ignorant bollix)
What have YOU done or are doing that stops a unionist or his kids from playing gaelic games?
I would agree with the others that said that this is not political. Unionists want to make it political
so they can observe the right to feel affronted by it.
Time will change it, the mindsets will ease.
two decades ago unionsts/loyalists wouldnt cross the border.
a decade ago unionists/loyalists wouldnt work south of the border or wouldnt buy/sell good with mexicans (apart from the hypocritical paisley and co)
five years ago unionists/loyalists wouldnt set foot in croke park for any reasons
in all that time, what have the southern people done to change 'their' ways to allow the unionist/loyalists to soften their position ?
the answer is nothing, the problem is in the never never never mindset and once this idiotic starched hatred and opinion is jettisoned, the entire island will benefit.
Northern nationalists have integrated into jobs (PSNI, Gov), communities (waterside Derry) , schools (numerous) and sports (rugby).
It will take time for the unionists/loyalists to allow themselves come down from the high horse - as they already know that nationalists et all are more than willing to integrate with them and liase with them in the communities and country.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 03, 2008, 11:43:32 AM
Gnevin in an ideal world it would be great to say that politcs can be removed from sport but it simply isn't possible. Whether we like it or not ( and i don't) the political climate does effect the sporting arena. This happens on a world wide basis. Described as war without the guns in some circumstances. Unionists and Nationalists have a poltical mindset that will have an influence on absolutely everything they partake in. The GAA will be no different when it comes to this.
Ziggy i wasn't sure what you were talking about there until your second post and you could have a point. Maybe this story was used to sort of sweep under the carpet the violence at the Irish Leagues games.
It's very possible. Remove the flag and Anthem ,changing the wording of the aims and you 75% of the way their
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 03, 2008, 12:15:09 PM
as for the psni GAA team - and what league do they play in,how often do they train...so they are actually an annual 'play' rather than a live club.
Its just for show. bad example - next...
If the GAA was that bad - would protestant people like Darren Graham play Gaelic games in the first place.
No the problem is not really with the GAA, it is with the head in the sand mindset of unionism.
Maybe some tweaks could be made, but not until the important issues have been dealt with (policing problems)
and wholesale integration has occurred as unionsts at last engage with nationalists and the road to unification.
Then it would be time to look at the sporting issues and this one of trying to appeal to the cross
border cross denominational population. Its pointless before then.
GNevin - both sides are as bad as each other ? (thats a load of mis-informed ignorant bollix)
What have YOU done or are doing that stops a unionist or his kids from playing gaelic games?
I would agree with the others that said that this is not political. Unionists want to make it political
so they can observe the right to feel affronted by it.
Time will change it, the mindsets will ease.
two decades ago unionsts/loyalists wouldnt cross the border.
a decade ago unionists/loyalists wouldnt work south of the border or wouldnt buy/sell good with mexicans (apart from the hypocritical paisley and co)
five years ago unionists/loyalists wouldnt set foot in croke park for any reasons
in all that time, what have the southern people done to change 'their' ways to allow the unionist/loyalists to soften their position ?
the answer is nothing, the problem is in the never never never mindset and once this idiotic starched hatred and opinion is jettisoned, the entire island will benefit.
Northern nationalists have integrated into jobs (PSNI, Gov), communities (waterside Derry) , schools (numerous) and sports (rugby).
It will take time for the unionists/loyalists to allow themselves come down from the high horse - as they already know that nationalists et all are more than willing to integrate with them and liase with them in the communities and country.
Lynchboy if the GAA required an oath to the queen would you of joined?
Didn't the RUC have to be totally be remade to be acceptable?
What political aspects of Rugby would prevent Republicans supporting it?
Quote from: ziggysego on April 03, 2008, 03:06:24 AM
Maybe it's because it's late at night and I can't sleep, but is anyone else suspicious about the timing of this piece? I mean a few days after the soccer semi-final in Belfast and the following attack by suspected Linfield supporters.
I was alluding to this earlier Ziggy - a bit suspicious alright !
Quote from: Gnevin on April 03, 2008, 12:43:13 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 03, 2008, 11:43:32 AM
Gnevin in an ideal world it would be great to say that politcs can be removed from sport but it simply isn't possible. Whether we like it or not ( and i don't) the political climate does effect the sporting arena. This happens on a world wide basis. Described as war without the guns in some circumstances. Unionists and Nationalists have a poltical mindset that will have an influence on absolutely everything they partake in. The GAA will be no different when it comes to this.
Ziggy i wasn't sure what you were talking about there until your second post and you could have a point. Maybe this story was used to sort of sweep under the carpet the violence at the Irish Leagues games.
It's very possible. Remove the flag and Anthem ,changing the wording of the aims and you 75% of the way their
Jaysus ::). If ever a 32 county republic comes into being I'd be 90% sure there'll be a new flag and anthem. I'm sure the GAA will have no problem adopting these then but until then the flag that sympolises peace between nationalism and unionism and the anthem will do just fine. If unionists have no problem standing under the flag and listening to the anthem in Landsdowne/Croke Park they should have no problem playing under it/listening to it
IF THEY WANTED TO!!!
Quote from: Gnevin on April 03, 2008, 12:53:01 PM
Lynchboy if the GAA required an oath to the queen would you of joined?
Didn't the RUC have to be totally be remade to be acceptable?
What political aspects of Rugby would prevent Republicans supporting it?
Jeez Gnevin - thats way off the mark or irrelevent.
1. I didnt join the cub scouts in england as there was an oath to the queen, but what has that to do with joining the GAA - or more so ...PLAYING GAA games.
Or do Na Fianna have lads dancing around pentacles and alters with sacrificed goats etc (though thinking about their recent success there may be something in this).
I joined the GAA to play football and hurling and thought nothing more of it. Mayeb there ae deep political thinkiers amonst the ranks of 8 year olds today, but I'd be mightily surprised.
2. RUC is now PSNI and is still not policing nationalist areas in NI. There are huge problems with this and only after a couple of years did gerry adams finally speak out against the bad 'service' being performed by the psni - but its too late for adams, he has lost all credibility and support in north county derry and derry city (the only areas I have been hearing directly from).
A wee name rebranding and supposed makeover was never going to fix the problems if the higher ranking order giving officers were not replaced of dealt with. I know you didnt know there were problems in NI over policing, but now you do. There are prob a lot of problems up there you dont know. I try to ignore them myself , which is easy living where we do. But it affects too many still, and these are the people who WANT to embrace change and integration!
Rugby was the game of the unionist middle and upper classes. they didnt allow nationalists to join up until very recently. If they did they were treated to abuse that would make the darren graham affair seem tame.
I have a few friends playing rugby for innishowen RFC who play in the ulster lueague and regularly play throughout NI , and for their troubles get lambasted and verbally abused before during and after games away in places like balinahinch, dungannon and balymena etc. Abused by opponents and fans, rode by biased anti-taig refs (half the innishowen team are not taigs btw). Need I go on...this is current and these instances are still happening this season...
I can give you all the info you want if you like - pm me on the rugby and psni stuff. Its sickening.
Gnevin why in the high heavens would anyone want to remove the flag of the nation from the national games???? How daft would that sound. The flag is not and should not be an issue as it is representative of all sections of our siociety. (well maybe not the foreign influx) Is there no end to the concessions you would give ?? Why don't you become a unionist because you would do a good job on the negotiating front. Unionism aspires to preserve the Union. Nationalism aspires to creating a 32 county state. These are the complete opposite so the politics that surround the issue will never allow one simple solution or even 75% worths . To suggest removing the flag and anthem is the most rediculus point raised yet.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 03, 2008, 03:45:02 PM
Gnevin why in the high heavens would anyone want to remove the flag of the nation from the national games???? How daft would that sound. The flag is not and should not be an issue as it is representative of all sections of our siociety. (well maybe not the foreign influx) Is there no end to the concessions you would give ?? Why don't you become a unionist because you would do a good job on the negotiating front. Unionism aspires to preserve the Union. Nationalism aspires to creating a 32 county state. These are the complete opposite so the politics that surround the issue will never allow one simple solution or even 75% worths . To suggest removing the flag and anthem is the most rediculus point raised yet.
::)
Quote from: Gnevin on April 03, 2008, 03:53:07 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 03, 2008, 03:45:02 PM
Gnevin why in the high heavens would anyone want to remove the flag of the nation from the national games???? How daft would that sound. The flag is not and should not be an issue as it is representative of all sections of our siociety. (well maybe not the foreign influx) Is there no end to the concessions you would give ?? Why don't you become a unionist because you would do a good job on the negotiating front. Unionism aspires to preserve the Union. Nationalism aspires to creating a 32 county state. These are the complete opposite so the politics that surround the issue will never allow one simple solution or even 75% worths . To suggest removing the flag and anthem is the most rediculus point raised yet.
::)
Good counter argument there?!
Quote from: lfdown2 on April 03, 2008, 03:58:16 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on April 03, 2008, 03:53:07 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 03, 2008, 03:45:02 PM
Gnevin why in the high heavens would anyone want to remove the flag of the nation from the national games???? How daft would that sound. The flag is not and should not be an issue as it is representative of all sections of our siociety. (well maybe not the foreign influx) Is there no end to the concessions you would give ?? Why don't you become a unionist because you would do a good job on the negotiating front. Unionism aspires to preserve the Union. Nationalism aspires to creating a 32 county state. These are the complete opposite so the politics that surround the issue will never allow one simple solution or even 75% worths . To suggest removing the flag and anthem is the most rediculus point raised yet.
::)
Good counter argument there?!
I'm just surprised he didn't mis-spell it :D
:D
I think some of them Freestaters are starting to take the piss out of us Brits ! ;) ;) ;D ;D
sure gnevin is only a west brit!! 8)
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 03, 2008, 03:45:02 PM
Gnevin why in the high heavens would anyone want to remove the flag of the nation from the national games???? How daft would that sound. The flag is not and should not be an issue as it is representative of all sections of our siociety. (well maybe not the foreign influx) Is there no end to the concessions you would give ?? Why don't you become a unionist because you would do a good job on the negotiating front. Unionism aspires to preserve the Union. Nationalism aspires to creating a 32 county state. These are the complete opposite so the politics that surround the issue will never allow one simple solution or even 75% worths . To suggest removing the flag and anthem is the most rediculus point raised yet.
Winsamsoon, your arguments are consistent in their inability to represent logical and rational thinking.
The whole point of this argument is to try and identify the barriers there may be to joining the GAA
from a unionist perspective. For unionists, the flag is not of their nation and does not represent them. We don't need a lession on what the colours of the flag represent - we all know what they represented when the flag was established, but for many, that's irrelevant.
I know i won't feel any less Irish if i was to head to a league or championship game and not see the tricolour. I'll hopefully also be able to identify that I'll be watching the national game in front of me, despite the lack of a flag. (Oh, and that reminds me of another thread some time ago - if i recall correctly, the flag is not flown at night, i think Parnell Park was the example given. During none of these evening games did the world end, did unionism advance or did the GAA lose its Irishness - to my knowledge at least. Excuse the sarcasm.) I would therefore come to the conclusion that it is not essential to fly the flag at every game. If a GAA flag is flown, it would be no less Irish, would still represent the 32 counties (and beyond, as would now be relevant), but would remove any unnecessary political dimension.
As for the national anthem, its recital at certain games can be an embarrassment and actually shows a real lack of respect for it, to the extent that it would be better not to play it at all. Its fine when its played at a big match with a proper band (although the amount of bands that still manage to mess it up baffles me!), but when it's cranked out through a crap PA from some dodgy tape (no CD could sound that bad!), or sung out of tune by a dodgy soloist (and generally without accompaniment from the crowd - at least in this part of the country) it does it no justice. There would be no loss to discontinuing its use, at least at certain levels.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 03, 2008, 06:41:12 PM
. (Oh, and that reminds me of another thread some time ago - if i recall correctly, the flag is not flown at night, i think Parnell Park was the example given. During none of these evening games did the world end, did unionism advance or did the GAA lose its Irishness - to my knowledge at least. Excuse the sarcasm.)
Yeah us Dub's respect the flag by not flying it after dusk!
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 03, 2008, 06:41:12 PM
The whole point of this argument is to try and identify the barriers there may be to joining the GAA from a unionist perspective. For unionists, the flag is not of their nation and does not represent them. We don't need a lession on what the colours of the flag represent - we all know what they represented when the flag was established, but for many, that's irrelevant.
I know i won't feel any less Irish if i was to head to a league or championship game and not see the tricolour. I'll hopefully also be able to identify that I'll be watching the national game in front of me, despite the lack of a flag. (Oh, and that reminds me of another thread some time ago - if i recall correctly, the flag is not flown at night, i think Parnell Park was the example given. During none of these evening games did the world end, did unionism advance or did the GAA lose its Irishness - to my knowledge at least. Excuse the sarcasm.) I would therefore come to the conclusion that it is not essential to fly the flag at every game. If a GAA flag is flown, it would be no less Irish, would still represent the 32 counties (and beyond, as would now be relevant), but would remove any unnecessary political dimension.
As for the national anthem, its recital at certain games can be an embarrassment and actually shows a real lack of respect for it, to the extent that it would be better not to play it at all. Its fine when its played at a big match with a proper band (although the amount of bands that still manage to mess it up baffles me!), but when it's cranked out through a crap PA from some dodgy tape (no CD could sound that bad!), or sung out of tune by a dodgy soloist (and generally without accompaniment from the crowd - at least in this part of the country) it does it no justice. There would be no loss to discontinuing its use, at least at certain levels.
I know the support for such things is coming from the likes of yourself or gnevin.
To that end, it is noted by people in the north, you know, the people who know whether it would actually work...
For some reason you and the likes of gnevin seem to think that you know more about unionist thinking than those of us who live north of the border. That amazes me as virtually noone else in the north connected to the GAA supports what you are saying about unionist thinking. Do us all a favour, give it 10 years and then see if unionism has embraced the GAA, then you might get the support you would need from the GAA base.
Until then, forget it.
G. Nevin....Yeah us Dub's respect the flag by not flying it after dusk
I am surprised you fly it at all
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on April 03, 2008, 09:20:31 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 03, 2008, 06:41:12 PM
The whole point of this argument is to try and identify the barriers there may be to joining the GAA from a unionist perspective. For unionists, the flag is not of their nation and does not represent them. We don't need a lession on what the colours of the flag represent - we all know what they represented when the flag was established, but for many, that's irrelevant.
I know i won't feel any less Irish if i was to head to a league or championship game and not see the tricolour. I'll hopefully also be able to identify that I'll be watching the national game in front of me, despite the lack of a flag. (Oh, and that reminds me of another thread some time ago - if i recall correctly, the flag is not flown at night, i think Parnell Park was the example given. During none of these evening games did the world end, did unionism advance or did the GAA lose its Irishness - to my knowledge at least. Excuse the sarcasm.) I would therefore come to the conclusion that it is not essential to fly the flag at every game. If a GAA flag is flown, it would be no less Irish, would still represent the 32 counties (and beyond, as would now be relevant), but would remove any unnecessary political dimension.
As for the national anthem, its recital at certain games can be an embarrassment and actually shows a real lack of respect for it, to the extent that it would be better not to play it at all. Its fine when its played at a big match with a proper band (although the amount of bands that still manage to mess it up baffles me!), but when it's cranked out through a crap PA from some dodgy tape (no CD could sound that bad!), or sung out of tune by a dodgy soloist (and generally without accompaniment from the crowd - at least in this part of the country) it does it no justice. There would be no loss to discontinuing its use, at least at certain levels.
I know the support for such things is coming from the likes of yourself or gnevin.
To that end, it is noted by people in the north, you know, the people who know whether it would actually work...
For some reason you and the likes of gnevin seem to think that you know more about unionist thinking than those of us who live north of the border. That amazes me as virtually noone else in the north connected to the GAA supports what you are saying about unionist thinking. Do us all a favour, give it 10 years and then see if unionism has embraced the GAA, then you might get the support you would need from the GAA base.
Until then, forget it.
I know more about every thing , get use to it , it's like the rising of the sun , nothing you can do about it ;)
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 03, 2008, 06:41:12 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 03, 2008, 03:45:02 PM
Gnevin why in the high heavens would anyone want to remove the flag of the nation from the national games???? How daft would that sound. The flag is not and should not be an issue as it is representative of all sections of our siociety. (well maybe not the foreign influx) Is there no end to the concessions you would give ?? Why don't you become a unionist because you would do a good job on the negotiating front. Unionism aspires to preserve the Union. Nationalism aspires to creating a 32 county state. These are the complete opposite so the politics that surround the issue will never allow one simple solution or even 75% worths . To suggest removing the flag and anthem is the most rediculus point raised yet.
Winsamsoon, your arguments are consistent in their inability to represent logical and rational thinking.
The whole point of this argument is to try and identify the barriers there may be to joining the GAA from a unionist perspective. For unionists, the flag is not of their nation and does not represent them. We don't need a lession on what the colours of the flag represent - we all know what they represented when the flag was established, but for many, that's irrelevant.
I know i won't feel any less Irish if i was to head to a league or championship game and not see the tricolour. I'll hopefully also be able to identify that I'll be watching the national game in front of me, despite the lack of a flag. (Oh, and that reminds me of another thread some time ago - if i recall correctly, the flag is not flown at night, i think Parnell Park was the example given. During none of these evening games did the world end, did unionism advance or did the GAA lose its Irishness - to my knowledge at least. Excuse the sarcasm.) I would therefore come to the conclusion that it is not essential to fly the flag at every game. If a GAA flag is flown, it would be no less Irish, would still represent the 32 counties (and beyond, as would now be relevant), but would remove any unnecessary political dimension.
As for the national anthem, its recital at certain games can be an embarrassment and actually shows a real lack of respect for it, to the extent that it would be better not to play it at all. Its fine when its played at a big match with a proper band (although the amount of bands that still manage to mess it up baffles me!), but when it's cranked out through a crap PA from some dodgy tape (no CD could sound that bad!), or sung out of tune by a dodgy soloist (and generally without accompaniment from the crowd - at least in this part of the country) it does it no justice. There would be no loss to discontinuing its use, at least at certain levels.
and the flying of the tricolour stops them from attending rugby matches in lansdowne or croke park
and it also stops them from playing rugby then ?
I'm a tad confused by this 'rationale'
long story short - the impasse stopping unionists and unionism from embracing the GAA is unionism and unionists themselves.
look at the moving of goalposts to get the ceasefire, GFA and eventually ni assembly encountered - I mean 'photos' of decommissioned guns etc
:D
same mindset here
yer wasting your time (as I think I must be) - so as the man says, give it 10 years and then see the 'committment !
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on April 03, 2008, 09:20:31 PM
I know the support for such things is coming from the likes of yourself or gnevin.
To that end, it is noted by people in the north, you know, the people who know whether it would actually work...
For some reason you and the likes of gnevin seem to think that you know more about unionist thinking than those of us who live north of the border. That amazes me as virtually noone else in the north connected to the GAA supports what you are saying about unionist thinking. Do us all a favour, give it 10 years and then see if unionism has embraced the GAA, then you might get the support you would need from the GAA base.
Until then, forget it.
I've lived in the North for over 20 years in Antrim, Down and Fermanagh. For the other early years of my life, i lived just a few miles on the other side.
Would you consider the possibility that those in the North who would oppose such views are generally more vocal about it than those who would be in favour of such changes? Or indeed indifferent to such changes, considering how little it would actually impact on what the GAA is and means to them (not fogetting that the article at the top of this discussion was penned by a Northern GAA footballer)?
QuoteWinsamsoon, your arguments are consistent in their inability to represent logical and rational thinking
Maguire i will put it in the simpliest form then if you can't fathom what i am saying. You talk about the anthem and flag not being that big of deal. Well i am a member of the GAA and i think it is a very big deal. A nationalistic organisation such as the GAA should always have their flag flying and their anthem sung. Some grounds may not have to technology to play it to your liking but it certainly doesn't disgrace the tune. In fact this highlights in many ways what the GAA is about. It is a organisation that was partly formed to preserve Irish culture at a time when England was trying to eradicate it by introducing anglicised games. The GAA today is still fighting that battle. The relevance to this particular case is the ideological clash. Unionism competing with nationalism, especially in the 6 counties. The GAA is mainly made up of nationalists, the flag and anthem represent the wishes of the majority of these people therefore any minority group looking to become part of the organisation must do so whilst at the same time accepting the status quo that was put in place for one reason only simply because it is the flag and anthem of our nation. There are not sectarian themes hidden within this. Anyone who claims there are any hidden agenda's behind this is completly of the mark. In my opinion a major part of the problem why more unionists do not part take in the GAA is because of their own mindset and ignorance to our culture. I know that i am totally ignorant to Ulster scots but i wouldn't attempt to become part of that organisation and firstly demand changes to the major symbols that are key to it. What needs to be done is for Unionist leaders like Edwin poots to embrace the GAA and sit down with the president and discuss Unionists fears . But Unionists must first understand the organisation and realise that the Flag and Anthem is not there as a sign of bigotry but simply as a key item within any nationalistic group. Unionst members may then filter this back to the community they represent and then further negotiations could commence.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 04, 2008, 02:16:16 PM
QuoteWinsamsoon, your arguments are consistent in their inability to represent logical and rational thinking
Maguire i will put it in the simpliest form then if you can't fathom what i am saying. You talk about the anthem and flag not being that big of deal. Well i am a member of the GAA and i think it is a very big deal. A nationalistic organisation such as the GAA should always have their flag flying and their anthem sung. Some grounds may not have to technology to play it to your liking but it certainly doesn't disgrace the tune. In fact this highlights in many ways what the GAA is about. It is a organisation that was partly formed to preserve Irish culture at a time when England was trying to eradicate it by introducing anglicised games. The GAA today is still fighting that battle. The relevance to this particular case is the ideological clash. Unionism competing with nationalism, especially in the 6 counties. The GAA is mainly made up of nationalists, the flag and anthem represent the wishes of the majority of these people therefore any minority group looking to become part of the organisation must do so whilst at the same time accepting the status quo that was put in place for one reason only simply because it is the flag and anthem of our nation. There are not sectarian themes hidden within this. Anyone who claims there are any hidden agenda's behind this is completly of the mark. In my opinion a major part of the problem why more unionists do not part take in the GAA is because of their own mindset and ignorance to our culture. I know that i am totally ignorant to Ulster scots but i wouldn't attempt to become part of that organisation and firstly demand changes to the major symbols that are key to it. What needs to be done is for Unionist leaders like Edwin poots to embrace the GAA and sit down with the president and discuss Unionists fears . But Unionists must first understand the organisation and realise that the Flag and Anthem is not there as a sign of bigotry but simply as a key item within any nationalistic group. Unionst members may then filter this back to the community they represent and then further negotiations could commence.
Sam - I'm very impressed with your argument even if I am on your side of the argument - it's very well put -
Maguire - why didn't the English rugby team last year decide not to play the Queen in Croke Park - this would have a nice gesture on their part ?
But they ploughed on ( as is their right to do so ) !
Quote from: orangeman on April 04, 2008, 03:02:26 PM
Sam - I'm very impressed with your argument even if I am on your side of the argument - it's very well put -
Maguire - why didn't the English rugby team last year decide not to play the Queen in Croke Park - this would have a nice gesture on their part ?
But they ploughed on ( as is their right to do so ) !
Can i ask what English Rugby has to do with Northern Unionists? We're not trying to convert English Rugby fans. I'm confused as to the parallel you're drawing.
Fair enough, orangeman and winsamsoon - some people need the extra assurance and comfort of the anthem and flags to reassert their identity. That may well be due to living in the North and having the Union Jack forced on you, or other similar circumstances - it's not for me to say.
I'm sufficiently confident in my identity to the extent that i wouldn't feel short-changed by the absence of a flag or anthem. My interest in GAA stems exclusively from the sport. For me, the Irish identity is within the sport itself, not the extras. For me, i wouldn't be compromising myself in order to depoliticise the organisation. You're clearly not at the same place.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=d9uHhLe6WE0 (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=d9uHhLe6WE0)
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 04, 2008, 01:28:17 PM
I've lived in the North for over 20 years in Antrim, Down and Fermanagh. For the other early years of my life, i lived just a few miles on the other side.
Would you consider the possibility that those in the North who would oppose such views are generally more vocal about it than those who would be in favour of such changes? Or indeed indifferent to such changes, considering how little it would actually impact on what the GAA is and means to them (not fogetting that the article at the top of this discussion was penned by a Northern GAA footballer)?
No, I most certainly wouldn't. If folk in the GAA really wanted to start making approaches to unionism, it would be communicated from club level, that's not happening at the minute, generally speaking throughout the country.
Maguire, I will take your word you have lived here, I am wondering though if you paid attention to unionism in full swing against... well against anything Irish. Unionism as a political force would dearly like to see the demise of the GAA rather than support it in any shape or form. Hence, they are not minded to want to play, watch or participate in GAA sports, again generally speaking.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 04, 2008, 06:15:38 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 04, 2008, 03:02:26 PM
Sam - I'm very impressed with your argument even if I am on your side of the argument - it's very well put -
Maguire - why didn't the English rugby team last year decide not to play the Queen in Croke Park - this would have a nice gesture on their part ?
But they ploughed on ( as is their right to do so ) !
Can i ask what English Rugby has to do with Northern Unionists? We're not trying to convert English Rugby fans. I'm confused as to the parallel you're drawing.
Fair enough, orangeman and winsamsoon - some people need the extra assurance and comfort of the anthem and flags to reassert their identity. That may well be due to living in the North and having the Union Jack forced on you, or other similar circumstances - it's not for me to say.
I'm sufficiently confident in my identity to the extent that i wouldn't feel short-changed by the absence of a flag or anthem. My interest in GAA stems exclusively from the sport. For me, the Irish identity is within the sport itself, not the extras. For me, i wouldn't be compromising myself in order to depoliticise the organisation. You're clearly not at the same place.
So will we do what you suggest and get rid of all flags, emblems, names, references to the past, our history, our culture and identity ??
Go away and catch yourself on !
GAA practice has been to make changes when they are appropriate, when situations change, not to suit the agenda of detractors or critics as to their letterbox view of what an acceptable GAA is.
The GAA have made changes to the rule book when it was appropriate to do so.
None of those changes have weakened it.
The original post in this thread had reference to "Rule Two states:'The association is a national organisation which has a basic aim of the strengthening of the national identity of a 32-county Ireland through the presentation of Gaelic games and pastimes'.
That is clearly a nationalist political aspiration. I happen to agree with that aspiration but it is not the GAA business to have that in the rule book. It is guaranteed in the State Constitution how a 32 county nation can come about, this change was accepted democratically across the Island.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on April 04, 2008, 11:18:39 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 04, 2008, 01:28:17 PM
I've lived in the North for over 20 years in Antrim, Down and Fermanagh. For the other early years of my life, i lived just a few miles on the other side.
Would you consider the possibility that those in the North who would oppose such views are generally more vocal about it than those who would be in favour of such changes? Or indeed indifferent to such changes, considering how little it would actually impact on what the GAA is and means to them (not fogetting that the article at the top of this discussion was penned by a Northern GAA footballer)?
No, I most certainly wouldn't. If folk in the GAA really wanted to start making approaches to unionism, it would be communicated from club level, that's not happening at the minute, generally speaking throughout the country.
Maguire, I will take your word you have lived here, I am wondering though if you paid attention to unionism in full swing against... well against anything Irish. Unionism as a political force would dearly like to see the demise of the GAA rather than support it in any shape or form. Hence, they are not minded to want to play, watch or participate in GAA sports, again generally speaking.
I'm not sure why you would doubt that i live in the North... is it that hard to fathom that someone could live in the North and have a different opinion?
Anyway, i have never suggested that any outreach to Unionists would be for the benefit of DUP Unionists or all unionists. There are many, many moderate unionists, possibly atill a small minority within unionism generally, who are not looking for an excuse to attack the GAA, and may, in a changing political environment, consider playing Gaelic games, but may see overt politics as a barrier to doing so (possibly similar, in some respects, to the way Catholics would have difficulty going to games in Windsor Park due to flags and GSTQ - not that i'm drawing an exact comparison here).
Quote from: orangeman on April 05, 2008, 11:52:39 AM
So will we do what you suggest and get rid of all flags, emblems, names, references to the past, our history, our culture and identity ??
Go away and catch yourself on !
No, not at all. The GAA's rich history should be preserved, by all means - i've only raised debate on political elements. But as has been pointed out, rules have changed before as circumstances have changed. Lets not forget also that the establishment of the GAA predates the tricolour and the national anthem.
Anyway, this discussion is starting to go in circles, so I'll bow out - we're unlikely to reach any consensus.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 06, 2008, 11:33:18 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on April 04, 2008, 11:18:39 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 04, 2008, 01:28:17 PM
I've lived in the North for over 20 years in Antrim, Down and Fermanagh. For the other early years of my life, i lived just a few miles on the other side.
Would you consider the possibility that those in the North who would oppose such views are generally more vocal about it than those who would be in favour of such changes? Or indeed indifferent to such changes, considering how little it would actually impact on what the GAA is and means to them (not fogetting that the article at the top of this discussion was penned by a Northern GAA footballer)?
No, I most certainly wouldn't. If folk in the GAA really wanted to start making approaches to unionism, it would be communicated from club level, that's not happening at the minute, generally speaking throughout the country.
Maguire, I will take your word you have lived here, I am wondering though if you paid attention to unionism in full swing against... well against anything Irish. Unionism as a political force would dearly like to see the demise of the GAA rather than support it in any shape or form. Hence, they are not minded to want to play, watch or participate in GAA sports, again generally speaking.
I'm not sure why you would doubt that i live in the North... is it that hard to fathom that someone could live in the North and have a different opinion?
Anyway, i have never suggested that any outreach to Unionists would be for the benefit of DUP Unionists or all unionists. There are many, many moderate unionists, possibly atill a small minority within unionism generally, who are not looking for an excuse to attack the GAA, and may, in a changing political environment, consider playing Gaelic games, but may see overt politics as a barrier to doing so (possibly similar, in some respects, to the way Catholics would have difficulty going to games in Windsor Park due to flags and GSTQ - not that i'm drawing an exact comparison here).
Quote from: orangeman on April 05, 2008, 11:52:39 AM
So will we do what you suggest and get rid of all flags, emblems, names, references to the past, our history, our culture and identity ??
Go away and catch yourself on !
No, not at all. The GAA's rich history should be preserved, by all means - i've only raised debate on political elements. But as has been pointed out, rules have changed before as circumstances have changed. Lets not forget also that the establishment of the GAA predates the tricolour and the national anthem.
Anyway, this discussion is starting to go in circles, so I'll bow out - we're unlikely to reach any consensus.
No problem but as someone said, it's good to talk ! Not sure what you mean about raising debate on the "political elements" !
Not wanting to keep the discussion going here, but just to clarify, I probably should have said political 'symbolism' (i.e. as opposed to purely GAA symbolism - flags, emblems etc) rather than 'elements'.
As for someone who once said 'It's good to talk', i believe it was British Telecom :P
Ok - what symbols would you propose to remove -
Tricolour ? Republican memorials ? Names like Wolfe Tones ?
Quote from: orangeman on April 06, 2008, 11:49:48 PM
Ok - what symbols would you propose to remove -
Tricolour ? Republican memorials ? Names like Wolfe Tones ?
currently that would still not work as the goalposts would be shifted for the GAA to change everything from different style of goalposts, disallowing handling the ball, bringing the teams down to 11 players and flying the union jack and calling it soccer.
If you remember the precedent where they would not agree to form the assembly after concession after concession was agreed and aall efforts were to 'compromise' ::) towards their preferences - then you will see that modern day unionism with its forked tongue would never never never accept any measures to integrate them including the ones maguire01 states.
Lets wait a while until they become more rational and reasonable and for a time where any moves would be welcomed and not pointless.
As right now this (talk of integrating unionism into GAA) is all futile and just dumb. They are not disallowed, its their own mindsets. So we would be better revisiting this in 5 -10 years.
I would agree with most of that Lynchboy but i am not sure the board will still exist in 5-10 years :D :D. I think what most of us are overlooking is the fact that no one has dissalowed Unionists from entering the GAA. The debate has probably run it's course and we are starting to repeat issues. Plus there were very little village idiots posting on the thread which always helps.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 07, 2008, 10:38:54 AM
I would agree with most of that Lynchboy but i am not sure the board will still exist in 5-10 years :D :D. I think what most of us are overlooking is the fact that no one has dissalowed Unionists from entering the GAA. The debate has probably run it's course and we are starting to repeat issues. Plus there were very little village idiots posting on the thread which always helps.
Agreed ! ;) :D ;D ;D ;D
Just a quick point guys, if we are going to make concessions to Unionists it had better be all or nothing. Dont forget they see the men of 1916 as terrorists. So if we arent going to rename every single trophy, stadium and club ever named after a republic then they will always have an excuse to be excluded.
I wish this wasnt true, but from what I have read from our Unionist posters on here, I have no doubt about this.
So Sam Maguire, Croke park, every Wolfe Tones club, among hundreds of other examples will need to be consigned to the history books if we are to "reach out" to them.
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 07, 2008, 01:50:20 PM
Just a quick point guys, if we are going to make concessions to Unionists it had better be all or nothing. Dont forget they see the men of 1916 as terrorists. So if we arent going to rename every single trophy, stadium and club ever named after a republic then they will always have an excuse to be excluded.
I wish this wasnt true, but from what I have read from our Unionist posters on here, I have no doubt about this.
So Sam Maguire, Croke park, every Wolfe Tones club, among hundreds of other examples will need to be consigned to the history books if we are to "reach out" to them.
Let them play thier games and we'll play ours - besides that everyone is welcome to play gaelic and I'm sure we can go play rugby if we want to.
So what's the problem ?
Well, like what was said about the schools, without going around taking down flags, removing anthems and stripping names from trophies, clubs and competitions, is there any other things that can be done to "reach out".
I think some kind of joint initiative by the 3 main sports bodies the GAA, Ulster Rugby and the IFA about community relations and perhaps get-together of sorts. A fun camp for people to go out and try different sports and just try have the craic on a sporting level. Wishful thinking perhaps, but might work.
It ain't broke so don't fix it !
Quote from: orangeman on April 07, 2008, 02:35:37 PM
It ain't broke so don't fix it !
You were looking for not an inch quotes orangeman.
No one is asking the GAA to bend over backwards and why should we wait for attitudes to change, we should be proactive not reactive.
What's wrong with going back to the original wording in the preamble? Other than it being seen as giving an inch. Also i've said it before and i'll say it again, the de facto situation on many gaa grounds in the north is that the flag has never been flown and the anthem rarely played. so why not word the rules so that the flags and anthems are at the discretion of the host club?
As for changing unionist attitudes, my own club has recently been approached to participate in a joint coaching initiative with the local rugby club (under the auspices of the One Small Step campaign) and there are GAA coaches in a number of state schools in North Down. Should we turn our backs on these people or should we offer an olive branch that doesnt compromise the principles of the organisation?
Quote from: passedit on April 07, 2008, 03:12:26 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 07, 2008, 02:35:37 PM
It ain't broke so don't fix it !
You were looking for not an inch quotes orangeman.
No one is asking the GAA to bend over backwards and why should we wait for attitudes to change, we should be proactive not reactive.
What's wrong with going back to the original wording in the preamble? Other than it being seen as giving an inch. Also i've said it before and i'll say it again, the de facto situation on many gaa grounds in the north is that the flag has never been flown and the anthem rarely played. so why not word the rules so that the flags and anthems are at the discretion of the host club?
As for changing unionist attitudes, my own club has recently been approached to participate in a joint coaching initiative with the local rugby club (under the auspices of the One Small Step campaign) and there are GAA coaches in a number of state schools in North Down. Should we turn our backs on these people or should we offer an olive branch that doesnt compromise the principles of the organisation?
Typical North Down attitude where you never were exposed to any of the troubles ad you're all members of the Alliance Party !! ;)
Quote from: passedit on April 07, 2008, 03:12:26 PM
What's wrong with going back to the original wording in the preamble?
Not being smart but were there many Unionists playing our games when the original wording was in place?
Quote from: orangeman on April 07, 2008, 03:15:41 PM
Typical North Down attitude where you never were exposed to any of the troubles ad you're all members of the Alliance Party !! ;)
I hope you're joking Orangeman
QuoteNot being smart but were there many Unionists playing our games when the original wording was in place?
your point?
Quote from: passedit on April 07, 2008, 04:40:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 07, 2008, 03:15:41 PM
Typical North Down attitude where you never were exposed to any of the troubles ad you're all members of the Alliance Party !! ;)
I hope you're joking Orangeman
QuoteNot being smart but were there many Unionists playing our games when the original wording was in place?
your point?
Only joking Passedit ! ;) But a joke with a wee jag ! ;) ;D
Quote from: passedit on April 07, 2008, 04:40:18 PM
QuoteNot being smart but were there many Unionists playing our games when the original wording was in place?
your point?
My point is, this thread is about "reaching out" to Unionists, in a way that will encourage them to play our games.
I just think that reverting to the old wording wont make a difference in this regard as they didnt play then either.
No one is turning their backs on anyone here passedit . They games are there for Unionists to play it is only themselves stopping them from participating, certainly nothing to do with the GAA. As his holiness has stated changing the issues mentioned would lead to a complete overall of the GAA right througout Ireland It. The names of everything would have to be changed.
Quote from: orangeman on April 07, 2008, 05:16:32 PM
Quote from: passedit on April 07, 2008, 04:40:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 07, 2008, 03:15:41 PM
Typical North Down attitude where you never were exposed to any of the troubles ad you're all members of the Alliance Party !! ;)
I hope you're joking Orangeman
QuoteNot being smart but were there many Unionists playing our games when the original wording was in place?
your point?
Only joking Passedit ! ;) But a joke with a wee jag ! ;) ;D
So you weren't joking then. I'll take the Biff's advice in future then.
HH I think you'll find that the ban was a greater impediment to any unionists playing pre 71 than any other rule.
Winsam I would be strongly against imposing renaming on any clubs. Clubs should have discretion to call themselves what they like.
Maybe more unionists will play now that the players are actually getting paid to play ??????? :D
Trouble flares at Linfield match
Scuffles broke out at the Setanta Cup match
Six people have been arrested at Linfield's match in Dublin against St Pat's Athletic following a number of crowd trouble incidents.
Gardai said the arrests were connected to isolated incidents at the Setanta Cup match, which Linfield lost 2-0.
Four of those arrested come from Northern Ireland while two are from the Republic. Gardai said minor scuffles broke out at the ground in Inchicore.
Dog units, mounted officers and gardai brought the trouble under control.
Linfield chairman Jim Kerr said he "utterly condemned" the behaviour and added that "the name of Linfield Football Club had been dragged through the gutter".
"Some fans with far too much to drink had tickets that were not sold to them and I don't know where they got those tickets and whether they were forged or genuine.
"Alcohol was the problem and there were people here who were spoiling for a fight.
"Some people whom I have never seen at Windsor Park were being aggressive towards fellow supporters, safety officers and the Garda.
"Should we continue in the Setanta Cup next season, we will have to look at transporting our supporters from Windsor Park and make sure they get to the ground without incident. There will be no unorganised travel.
"Everything will be organised by the club but we will have to look seriously at whether we will continue in the Setanta Cup because I don't want the name of Linfield being dragged through the gutter as it has been tonight."
The Setanta Cup is an All-Ireland football tournament, which is contested by four clubs from both sides of the border.
It is in its fourth year and Linfield have played in the competition on each occasion, winning the event in its inaugural year and losing in the final last year.
Jesus, I can't wait for all these unionists to join the GAA clubs - sure it'll be great to have the riot squad sitting outside the ground on a Sunday !!
Quote from: orangeman on April 15, 2008, 11:30:33 PMJesus, I can't wait for all these unionists to join the GAA clubs - sure it'll be great to have the riot squad sitting outside the ground on a Sunday !!
Aye because 4 dickheads really represent the whole of Unionism. ::)
Quote from: orangeman on April 15, 2008, 11:30:33 PM
Trouble flares at Linfield match
Scuffles broke out at the Setanta Cup match
Six people have been arrested at Linfield's match in Dublin against St Pat's Athletic following a number of crowd trouble incidents.
Gardai said the arrests were connected to isolated incidents at the Setanta Cup match, which Linfield lost 2-0.
Four of those arrested come from Northern Ireland while two are from the Republic. Gardai said minor scuffles broke out at the ground in Inchicore.
Dog units, mounted officers and gardai brought the trouble under control.
Linfield chairman Jim Kerr said he "utterly condemned" the behaviour and added that "the name of Linfield Football Club had been dragged through the gutter".
"Some fans with far too much to drink had tickets that were not sold to them and I don't know where they got those tickets and whether they were forged or genuine.
"Alcohol was the problem and there were people here who were spoiling for a fight.
"Some people whom I have never seen at Windsor Park were being aggressive towards fellow supporters, safety officers and the Garda.
"Should we continue in the Setanta Cup next season, we will have to look at transporting our supporters from Windsor Park and make sure they get to the ground without incident. There will be no unorganised travel.
"Everything will be organised by the club but we will have to look seriously at whether we will continue in the Setanta Cup because I don't want the name of Linfield being dragged through the gutter as it has been tonight."
The Setanta Cup is an All-Ireland football tournament, which is contested by four clubs from both sides of the border.
It is in its fourth year and Linfield have played in the competition on each occasion, winning the event in its inaugural year and losing in the final last year.
Jesus, I can't wait for all these unionists to join the GAA clubs - sure it'll be great to have the riot squad sitting outside the ground on a Sunday !!
What's trouble at a soccer at a soccer match caused by a few sc**bag supporters got to do with encouraging Unionists to play our games. Come on orangeman it's being discussed on the Non GAA and has no relevance in this debate!
spot on Exile!
This story is irrelevent Orangeman, but...
firstly the aggression would not be normal behaviour against GAA folks
but the mindset would be in that same area.
Unionism doesnt want to embrace multi culturalism or inclusionism with the 'faces not normally seen' before at soccer matches indicative of this.
In the same moving goalposts manner of the dup's requests for ceasefire, concessions,decommissioning, disbandment, photographs ...etc etc
the unionists will not be placated unless the clubs changed names, the rules were changed, the clubs played soccer as well (if not just only soccer) , change jersey colours - nothing green etc etc
in short, there are fellas who are ok in unionist circles (I presume) but will never (never never) join the GAA in this lifetime irrespective of what concessions, rule or name changes are made (though will mischeviously request this to be done)
because of their upbringing and associating GAA with everything they despise (although will not be able to give any decent reason why if asked).
you are wasting your time lads.
Time will overcome all this though.
Whats the rush to pander to anybody. Things are going well enough there now (apart from policing and violence around NI).
Give it time and space.
I definitely think the GAA should be doing more to reach out to all minorities on the island. Not just unionists.
However in the case of unionists I wonder would it have any impact whatsoever. From a reading of OWC there is a palpable and visceral hatred of the GAA from many there (check out the "GAA reach out" thread amongst many examples) . I don't believe reaching out would cause a road to Damascus style conversion for many on that site. However it I guess it must be remembered that there are many moderates around too who may be interested.
But how representative is OWC of Unionism in general? Not very, i'd guess. Even if it is, it would be acceptable to reach out to a 'small minority' of unionists who would be more open to the idea of the GAA.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 16, 2008, 01:16:23 PM
in short, there are fellas who are ok in unionist circles (I presume)
That says a lot. Mainly that you don't really know too many 'Unionists' = part of the problem? (Yes, i know, part of the bigger picture, not just the GAA argument.)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 16, 2008, 01:16:23 PM
In the same moving goalposts manner of the dup's requests for ceasefire, concessions,decommissioning, disbandment, photographs ...etc etc
the unionists will not be placated unless the clubs changed names, the rules were changed, the clubs played soccer as well (if not just only soccer) , change jersey colours - nothing green etc etc
Yes, but no-one is saying that everything needs to be changed. Most people recognise that many unionsts would never bring themselves to play/become involved with GAA; they're not the people we should be reaching out to or trying to appease.
Oh, and as for the 'jersey colours - nothing green' - i take it that's tongue in cheek (given OWC's green army!).
And yes, as has been said, the story posted by Orangemen is totally irrelevent - whether it was posted in error (i.e. not understanding the lack of relevance) or to try and undermine the argument for reaching out to unionists (none of which would fall into the category of those at the centre of that story).
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 16, 2008, 05:58:08 PM
But how representative is OWC of Unionism in general? Not very, i'd guess. Even if it is, it would be acceptable to reach out to a 'small minority' of unionists who would be more open to the idea of the GAA.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 16, 2008, 01:16:23 PM
in short, there are fellas who are ok in unionist circles (I presume)
That says a lot. Mainly that you don't really know too many 'Unionists' = part of the problem? (Yes, i know, part of the bigger picture, not just the GAA argument.)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 16, 2008, 01:16:23 PM
In the same moving goalposts manner of the dup's requests for ceasefire, concessions,decommissioning, disbandment, photographs ...etc etc
the unionists will not be placated unless the clubs changed names, the rules were changed, the clubs played soccer as well (if not just only soccer) , change jersey colours - nothing green etc etc
Yes, but no-one is saying that everything needs to be changed. Most people recognise that many unionsts would never bring themselves to play/become involved with GAA; they're not the people we should be reaching out to or trying to appease.
Oh, and as for the 'jersey colours - nothing green' - i take it that's tongue in cheek (given OWC's green army!).
And yes, as has been said, the story posted by Orangemen is totally irrelevent - whether it was posted in error (i.e. not understanding the lack of relevance) or to try and undermine the argument for reaching out to unionists (none of which would fall into the category of those at the centre of that story).
I am not the problem, people like me are not the problem, the GAA itself is not the problem,
the problem is that unionists and unionism wont allow itself to join because of its perceptions.
There will have to be a watering down of things to pander to them to get them to join currently, so why bother when they will be happy to join in after a few short years and the current old colonial mindset is no longer in the ascendancy.
the hypocricy is that although they have no problem with the colour green for their soccer team, as soon as its green when GAA related - it then becomes an object of scorn and indeed hatred.
You are wasting your time rationalising for a majority of people who dont want to be included.
Wait for a while and it will all become much easier - esp when a suitable time has passed so they can ditch their mock abhorrence and 'wee daftie' type excuses.
I'd train them now myself if there was a team of them to train. However tehre isnt and wont be for a while, so relax until then!
:)
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 16, 2008, 04:19:13 PM
I definitely think the GAA should be doing more to reach out to all minorities on the island.
this is whats most important if you ask me. GAA is all about community and there are people on the margins of our communitiies who are finding hard to get involved and intigrated. HOw about some GAA announcements of activities in Chinese, Polish, Arabic etc. I see there is a World Soccer League in Dublin for different communities and cultures, I'd like to see a GAA equilivant. I really dont think the GAA is doing enough on this, sure theres the one or two who get involved but thats through passive recruitment.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 16, 2008, 01:16:23 PM
This story is irrelevent Orangeman, but...
firstly the aggression would not be normal behaviour against GAA folks
but the mindset would be in that same area.
Unionism doesnt want to embrace multi culturalism or inclusionism with the 'faces not normally seen' before at soccer matches indicative of this.
In the same moving goalposts manner of the dup's requests for ceasefire, concessions,decommissioning, disbandment, photographs ...etc etc
the unionists will not be placated unless the clubs changed names, the rules were changed, the clubs played soccer as well (if not just only soccer) , change jersey colours - nothing green etc etc
in short, there are fellas who are ok in unionist circles (I presume) but will never (never never) join the GAA in this lifetime irrespective of what concessions, rule or name changes are made (though will mischeviously request this to be done)
because of their upbringing and associating GAA with everything they despise (although will not be able to give any decent reason why if asked).
you are wasting your time lads.
Time will overcome all this though.
Whats the rush to pander to anybody. Things are going well enough there now (apart from policing and violence around NI).
Give it time and space.
Totally agree so just forget about them - I've said it before and I'll say it again - let them join if they want - if they don't ( which they don't ) , forget about them and stop this constant going on about how we can acommodate them more etc etc - let them play hurling / gaelic football in the protestant schools first.
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 16, 2008, 04:19:13 PMFrom a reading of OWC there is a palpable and visceral hatred of the GAA from many there
Don't want to drag this thread off track but that's a fairly serious allegation. Can you let me have some examples of this 'palpable and visceral hatred'?
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 05:00:19 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 16, 2008, 04:19:13 PMFrom a reading of OWC there is a palpable and visceral hatred of the GAA from many there
Don't want to drag this thread off track but that's a fairly serious allegation. Can you let me have some examples of this 'palpable and visceral hatred'?
QuoteAlways looked at it as sport and support that's drenched in hard-line republicanism
QuoteSo I don't really think the GAA will ever change and I know many a decent catholic that would not support it
QuoteChange? Clean it out, start again, I say disband the GAA.
QuoteAm I alone in saying that I don't ever want anything to do with the gaa-gaa?
QuoteBesides, if...and it's a bloody big if...they dragged themselves into the 19th century (never mind the 21st) rewrote their rule book and, as a result, completely neutralised their whole rancid, cancer-ridden, organisation
QuoteIn the end, perhaps we should be glad that the GAA is failing utterly in any attempt it makes to "reach out".
QuoteThey are as British as our land when they want our British Pound and as dirty as a rats when they have it.
QuoteThe GAA, in its present ( and probably permanent) sectarian, bigoted mode should be challenged at every opportunity.
I got tired picking quotes out at that point and that's just from one thread.
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 05:00:19 PM
Don't want to drag this thread off track but that's a fairly serious allegation. Can you let me have some examples of this 'palpable and visceral hatred'?
Ach now Sammy that's not a fair challenge considering the most vitriolic threads on OWC are now hidden to us Fenians - is that not so?
Quote from: Donagh on April 17, 2008, 05:26:42 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 05:00:19 PM
Don't want to drag this thread off track but that's a fairly serious allegation. Can you let me have some examples of this 'palpable and visceral hatred'?
Ach now Sammy that's not a fair challenge considering the most vitriolic threads on OWC are now hidden to us Fenians - is that not so?
GAA is discussed in the Other Sports thread which is open to all (as you well know).
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 17, 2008, 05:23:53 PM
I got tired picking quotes out at that point and that's just from one thread.
Interesting that not one of those quotes mention hating the GAA, in any way. Would it not have been easier to just say, no and save yourself the cutting and pasting?
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 17, 2008, 05:23:53 PM
I got tired picking quotes out at that point and that's just from one thread.
Interesting that not one of those quotes mention hating the GAA, in any way. Would it not have been easier to just say, no and save yourself the cutting and pasting?
It actually wouldn't be as bad if they just came out and said they hated the GAA.
Instead we get people using language like "cancer ridden", "rancid" and "rats". Unacceptable stuff or at least it should be.
I don't know how else language like that can be interpreted. And as I said that's only one single thread. I've seen just as bad if not worse in others down through the years.
However we are getting off the point a little here.
Am I really reading Sammy argue that there isnt hatred towards the GAA on OWC?
Or at least question the allegations?
Seriously?
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 17, 2008, 06:42:14 PM
Am I really reading Sammy argue that there isnt hatred towards the GAA on OWC?
Or at least question the allegations?
Seriously?
There is hatred (for want of a better word) of many of the things that the GAA does, naming kids tournaments after mass murderers for example but that doesn't translate into hatred of the GAA. I'm sure there are lads that don't like the GAA but it would certainly be a lot less than the hatred on here (in this thread alone) for a million of your fellow Irishmen.
Any way this is taking an interesting thread of track, so pm me if you want to continue.
pm me! :D
My hole.
Sammy, theres pure hatred over there for the GAA, and you are as guilty as anyone over there.
Stop talking shite and at least admit that, dont be such a coward all the time.
Ignore the Troll
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 17, 2008, 05:23:53 PM
I got tired picking quotes out at that point and that's just from one thread.
Interesting that not one of those quotes mention hating the GAA, in any way. Would it not have been easier to just say, no and save yourself the cutting and pasting?
Ah now SammyG...
You and get on well, so you know this doesn't come from a stirring the pot scenario, but that's nonsense. So they didn't use the word 'hate'. but it's clear as they that those particular posters do.
Just to provide a little balance, I've always been welcome on the OWC board and I would safely say that the majority of them wouldn't hold this view.
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 06:46:21 PM
There is hatred (for want of a better word) of many of the things that the GAA does, naming kids tournaments after mass murderers for example but that doesn't translate into hatred of the GAA. I'm sure there are lads that don't like the GAA but it would certainly be a lot less than the hatred on here (in this thread alone) for a million of your fellow Irishmen.
Post proof of this or retract it.
Quote from: tyrone86 on April 17, 2008, 09:44:12 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 06:46:21 PM
There is hatred (for want of a better word) of many of the things that the GAA does, naming kids tournaments after mass murderers for example but that doesn't translate into hatred of the GAA. I'm sure there are lads that don't like the GAA but it would certainly be a lot less than the hatred on here (in this thread alone) for a million of your fellow Irishmen.
Post proof of this or retract it.
was going to post the same...
is this just the face of unionism showing its disingenuous head yet again and proving what we are talking about...
Quote from: tyrone86 on April 17, 2008, 09:44:12 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 06:46:21 PM
There is hatred (for want of a better word) of many of the things that the GAA does, naming kids tournaments after mass murderers for example but that doesn't translate into hatred of the GAA. I'm sure there are lads that don't like the GAA but it would certainly be a lot less than the hatred on here (in this thread alone) for a million of your fellow Irishmen.
Post proof of this or retract it.
The GAA organise the Gerard and Martin Harte cup for Under 12's
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 10:22:39 PM
Quote from: tyrone86 on April 17, 2008, 09:44:12 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 06:46:21 PM
There is hatred (for want of a better word) of many of the things that the GAA does, naming kids tournaments after mass murderers for example but that doesn't translate into hatred of the GAA. I'm sure there are lads that don't like the GAA but it would certainly be a lot less than the hatred on here (in this thread alone) for a million of your fellow Irishmen.
Post proof of this or retract it.
The GAA organise the Gerard and Martin Harte cup for Under 12's
so the GAA organise it do they
ohhhh kkkkkkayyy
and pray tell what aspects of mass murder did Gerard and Martin Harte purportrate ?
I must admit, I did not realise there was an All Ireland competition for u12's
http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/6301
just googled their names and got this from an Phoblacht, Concerning their football career.
Gerard Harte was a highly respected member of his local community and occupied many key roles, both as manager and player, with Cumann Naomh Treasa. One of his many achievements was a Tyrone junior championship medal, which he won while playing corner forward with the Loughmacrory side against Brockagh in 1980.
Martin Harte was also married, with a young son, Declan. A joiner by trade, he was, like his brother Gerard, a skilled Gaelic footballer. Martin captained Saint Teresa's team at the time of his death and was the holder of the club's player of the year award — a title he inherited from the previous year's holder, his brother Gerard. Holding the position of centre halfback, Martin was arguably one of the best footballers in the county and no doubt, had his footballing career not been prematurely cut short, he would have represented Tyrone at Senior County football level.
On the field, one of Martin's proudest moments was when he captained the Under 16 Loughmacrory side against Owenkillew to win the Grade two County final on 17 August 1982. On that day, Martin played a stormer at midfield, falling back to help out the defence when needed, while his partner, Paul Murphy, played an attacking role.
Gerard was the manager of that 1982 side .
Sammy
While i think the naming of stadiums,Clubs,competitions and anything else after those involved in the Troubles is completely wrong.
Do you not think its possible the club members of Loughmacrory GAA might be trying to remember those two dead club members with their naming of the tournament, more so than it being a deliberate attempt to show support to the Provisional Republican Movement?
i dont know if you can seperate Gerard and Martin Harte GAA Players from Gerard and Martin Harte IRA members.
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on April 17, 2008, 10:52:50 PM
i dont know if you can seperate Gerard and Martin Harte GAA Players from Gerard and Martin Harte IRA members.
folks like sammy wont - and dont want to - as it serves their purpose not to.
why should their club not celebrate the memory of two of their 'stand out' players as the yanks woul dput it.
so we have established that it isnt a competition that the 'GAA' have organised, but the local lochmacrory club.
No surprise. Plus the club have every right to do so , on a footballing basis.
OK on to next falsehood, the subject of them being 'mass murderers'.
must be going blind in my old age, but cant find it in google etc... ::)
...are you in need of a bus fare sammy ! ::)
Sammy G has answered all the questions about reaching out - Sammy G and his ilke just don't want to forge closer relations - all they want to do is stir shite on this board !!! Let them join if they want - but the truth is, they don't want to. They just want to talk about it and throw insults.
when i said i dont know if "you" can seperate them as GAA in comparison to IRA members, it wasnt a direct question or statement to Sammy
it was meant as a figure of speech instead of passage such as "is it possible" , just to clear that up.
Lynchbhoy
Were Gerard and Martin Harte not shot dead while attempting to shoot a UDR man?
And did not the blowing up of a bus of British Soldiers occur within the territory of their brothers Brigade organisation?
So while anyones death is tragic,They werent exactly innocent parties
Its not exactly encouraging for any unionist who might want to join a local club to see a tournament named after such prominent members of the Tyrone IRA.
Surely you can see that.
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on April 17, 2008, 11:21:14 PM
when i said i dont know if "you" can seperate them as GAA in comparison to IRA members, it wasnt a direct question or statement to Sammy
it was meant as a figure of speech instead of passage such as "is it possible" , just to clear that up.
Lynchbhoy
Were Gerard and Martin Harte not shot dead while attempting to shoot a UDR man?
And did not the blowing up of a bus of British Soldiers occur within the territory of their brothers Brigade organisation?
So while anyones death is tragic,They werent exactly innocent parties
Its not exactly encouraging for any unionist who might want to join a local club to see a tournament named after such prominent members of the Tyrone IRA.
Surely you can see that.
Surely you can see that they don't want to join - all they want to do is beat us and insult us and wind us up, which they have always done - so forget about them.
If a "George Washington" team turned up at the Mlik cup, would anyone bat an eyelid. Indeed if you formed a "George Washington" american football team would OWC be going on about it being named after a terrorist?
Quote from: orangeman on April 17, 2008, 11:30:01 PM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on April 17, 2008, 11:21:14 PM
when i said i dont know if "you" can seperate them as GAA in comparison to IRA members, it wasnt a direct question or statement to Sammy
it was meant as a figure of speech instead of passage such as "is it possible" , just to clear that up.
Lynchbhoy
Were Gerard and Martin Harte not shot dead while attempting to shoot a UDR man?
And did not the blowing up of a bus of British Soldiers occur within the territory of their brothers Brigade organisation?
So while anyones death is tragic,They werent exactly innocent parties
Its not exactly encouraging for any unionist who might want to join a local club to see a tournament named after such prominent members of the Tyrone IRA.
Surely you can see that.
Surely you can see that they don't want to join - all they want to do is beat us and insult us and wind us up, which they have always done - so forget about them.
You're obviously a bit more clued in than me OM, i had to use google entirely just to look in anyway knowledgeable on this thread :D
Its just an interesting topic for us Free Staters,
Unionists and the GAA, so you have to expect us on here talking sh*t about stuff we know little about ;)
Maybe Sammy G has been in the 'fatherland' too long; from the Belfast Telegraph (today, April 17th), and about Gaelic Games:
...Even up until a decade ago GAA coverage was largely confined to areas of the media where writers and broadcasters were preaching to the converted.
Today, in a pluralist society in which the GAA has given a lead on several fronts - the opening of Croke Park to other sports, a dynamic anti-drugs campaign, a concerted drive to provide the best facilities for members spanning all ages, creeds and classes - the Association, for all its human imperfections, enjoys a level of overall credibility that is the envy of many other organisations, sporting and otherwise.
And that's certainly something to write home about.
Do you think Unionists would mind getting treated in James Connolly Memorial Hospital? Or taking a train to Sean Heuston Station?
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on April 17, 2008, 11:21:14 PM
when i said i dont know if "you" can seperate them as GAA in comparison to IRA members, it wasnt a direct question or statement to Sammy
it was meant as a figure of speech instead of passage such as "is it possible" , just to clear that up.
Lynchbhoy
Were Gerard and Martin Harte not shot dead while attempting to shoot a UDR man?
And did not the blowing up of a bus of British Soldiers occur within the territory of their brothers Brigade organisation?
So while anyones death is tragic,They werent exactly innocent parties
Its not exactly encouraging for any unionist who might want to join a local club to see a tournament named after such prominent members of the Tyrone IRA.
Surely you can see that.
I know what you are saying, but I am answering the question/allegation that they were mass murderers
now if attempting to shoot a udr man qualifies as that - well the law has changed as I knew it (though in NI that allegation would prob have been enough to send them down for life - not joking either )
also DID they carry out the bombing of the bus that was blown up ?
It was their unit - interestingly enough your info doesnt say they did it, and lets face it, if they were even remotely proven to be in any way actually involved, you would see their names up in big flashing lights - as is the unionist/loyalist /brit gov influenced media way of highlighting any nationalists 'indescretions' - while sweeping any of their own under the carpet.
you my friend, have proven how easy it is to become a victim of this media- and taken in BY THEIR WORDING.
I am not saying the two lads were in any way innocents - but the wording has you convinced they are 'mass murderers' as sammy would say, leading you to interpret more than the two brothers were found actually guilty of.
Can you not see the huge problems there, and this wording is the tool of the unionist/loyalists against convergence into NI, and what enables them to put up their own barriers against joining the GAA.
I had no problem getting treatment in the royal victoria hospital, or have any problem with institutions of a 'british' nature. As a GAA man (even as a nationalist, republican , Catholic) I welcome any person into my culture and sports (as our club have done with dutch and aussies in recent years) - and would do for unionist, loyalist, brit army, ruc guy etc etc (only problem I have with the ruc/psni is that they are a crap unimpartial police force and badly need a 're-alignment' at the top of the tree).
As history has proven, time heals everything and historical heroes are usually the underdogs - from Ghandi to Guevara, from Mandela to Sands, and these plus folk like men of 1916, were all once 'rebels' or 'terrorists' but are now venerated and 'loved'.
Teh unionists negative mindset will disappear in time. We will all get along at that stage and GAA will become stronger (as long as we are not fcuked up from within by the greedy few banging on about money).
the 'war' is over, and from my recollection, the GAA , even in Ulster, were never fighting it.
Unionists/loyalists just dont want to join in , as this will be another step in the wrong direction towards unification and away from the empire.
Their loss.
Innocent GAA members were harassed, beatenup and indeed murdered simply because they belonged to GAA club - this thread demeans their efforts and in many cases their memory - I'm turning this thread around now -
The Unionist / protestant community should apologise for their behaviour to us - they make amends for their wrong doings of the past amd pay us compensation before we ever consider letting them near our gounds !
One fatal error that a lot of the posters on here seem to be making is the fact that our history is in fact really really important to us. A lot of people here seem to be suggesting that we be selective in what part of our history that we keep. But on the same post it is ok to bring up that someone killed someone else. We all know about the history of Ireland and the causes that have given rise to the conflict. Our history has shaped the way we are today and i for one am proud to call myself Irish and proud of the majority of patriots and great Irishmen that have came and gone ( This includes protestants by the way) My history is crucial to my life as it has influenced my beliefs and formed my culture. I was never taught to hate anyone and through the ranks of the GAA i never remember any references being made to Unionism or Protestants in any bad way. As a GAA member i can seriously say that the GAA as an organisation did try it's best to remain impartial when it came to politics. There is no hidden agendas behind the names of GAA clubs or ground they are simply to rememeber the members of the organisation that where influential in Irelands society whether nationalist or republican. Naming a tournament after two lads in loughmacrory was not done because they were republicans it was done because they were members of that particular club and they gave a lot to that club in their time. You see the GAA is such a big organisation they can do this. The GAA can remain a separate identity to all that is going on round it and did successfully do this. With the exeption of the removal of rule 21 and 42 when the GAA in my opinion got involved in politics. These were major steps for the GAA which cause a lot of division within the organisation , but the members accepted the democracy and moved on. A lot of people would still have issues with it but again it is in no related to hatred or bigotry. People involved in Gaelic games are very close to their culture. This is the same culture for all in the island of Ireland. I would say that Unionsm would probably reject the formation of the GAA as part of their culture so how then can we possible change this mindset and appease a section of our society that will not even recognise the proper reasons behind the formation of our sport. Unionism and nationalsim share cultures. The formation of the B specials was part of my culture just as much as any unionist. We cannot be selective in what we choose. What has happened has happened and still has a bearing on society We should never forget this even though it has happened. But we must get out of the mindset that everything anyone does is to get one up on the the other side. It is here that the problems lies and wholesale changes will never make a hairs difference.
Haven't been keeping up to date with this, but a few points...
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 17, 2008, 05:23:53 PM
I got tired picking quotes out at that point and that's just from one thread.
Interesting that not one of those quotes mention hating the GAA, in any way. Would it not have been easier to just say, no and save yourself the cutting and pasting?
Sammy, i have to say, your posts are generally fairly measured and balanced, even though a lot of people on here won't agree with you, but from reading the quotes picked out, your response is well off the mark - there is clearly hatred demonstrated, the word 'hate' doesn't have to be used to illustrate hatred.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 17, 2008, 10:31:01 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 10:22:39 PM
Quote from: tyrone86 on April 17, 2008, 09:44:12 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 06:46:21 PM
There is hatred (for want of a better word) of many of the things that the GAA does, naming kids tournaments after mass murderers for example but that doesn't translate into hatred of the GAA. I'm sure there are lads that don't like the GAA but it would certainly be a lot less than the hatred on here (in this thread alone) for a million of your fellow Irishmen.
Post proof of this or retract it.
The GAA organise the Gerard and Martin Harte cup for Under 12's
so the GAA organise it do they
ohhhh kkkkkkayyy
and pray tell what aspects of mass murder did Gerard and Martin Harte purportrate ?
I must admit, I did not realise there was an All Ireland competition for u12's
To play devil's advocate here, many looking in from outside would say 'yes', the GAA
do organise it. It may be through a club, but does it have to be arranged exclusively from Croke Park to be 'organised by the GAA'?
Also, where was the mention of an AI competition for u12s? That comment just undermines your defense and looks like toys out of the pram stuff.
I'm not suggesting that such clubs abandon such tributes to their GAA heroes, that's for them to decide. At the same time, i can understand why it's any easy point for criticism - a soccer competition named after some loyalist would be a target for abuse on here, whether it was arranged by the IFA or a club within it's ranks.
I have a genuine question for Sammy and any other unionists on here: Is the issue with the naming of GAA venues/competitions after republicans limited to those involved in activities over the last 30/40 years? i.e. is there a problem with the likes of Casement Park, or just with examples like the U12 competition mentioned above, related to republicans active during 'the troubles'?
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 17, 2008, 11:52:58 PM
Maybe Sammy G has been in the 'fatherland' too long; from the Belfast Telegraph (today, April 17th), and about Gaelic Games:
...Even up until a decade ago GAA coverage was largely confined to areas of the media where writers and broadcasters were preaching to the converted.
Today, in a pluralist society in which the GAA has given a lead on several fronts - the opening of Croke Park to other sports, a dynamic anti-drugs campaign, a concerted drive to provide the best facilities for members spanning all ages, creeds and classes - the Association, for all its human imperfections, enjoys a level of overall credibility that is the envy of many other organisations, sporting and otherwise.
And that's certainly something to write home about.
Yet we still don't see GAA anywhere near the back pages of the BT!
Quote from: orangeman on April 18, 2008, 11:20:41 AM
Innocent GAA members were harassed, beatenup and indeed murdered simply because they belonged to GAA club - this thread demeans their efforts and in many cases their memory - I'm turning this thread around now -
The Unionist / protestant community should apologise for their behaviour to us - they make amends for their wrong doings of the past amd pay us compensation before we ever consider letting them near our gounds !
That's a bit pointless to be fair. Any of those who murdered or harassed GAA members are hardly the people that are ever going to be interested in joining the GAA and are therefore unlikely to be those the GAA 'reach out' to. Innocent unionists have nothing to apologise for.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2008, 11:22:31 AM
To play devil's advocate here, many looking in from outside would say 'yes', the GAA
do organise it. It may be through a club, but does it have to be arranged exclusively from Croke Park to be 'organised by the GAA'?
Also, where was the mention of an AI competition for u12s? That comment just undermines your defense and looks like toys out of the pram stuff.
[/quote]
completely disagree.
Local county boards organise league/championships within their own boundaries - and yes clubs themselves organise their own tournaments etc
the GAA as it was put - do NOT organise anything other than their games fixtures committees etc oversee the national leagues and all Ireland Championship organisations.
The GAA, like most other institutions in this country, can have sub divisions (county boards in this case, and clubs going a further level down) who do NOT communicate what is happening at their own levels - so you could say the left hand doesnt know what the right hand is doing.
This is common in fragmented, franchised or geographically dispersed companies let alone sports organisations.
So your point about it 'could' be GAA organised is just wrong. it aint.
as for the toys from pram about the GAA not organising an u12 competition, maybe so - its all down to your own persepctive, I merely was highlighting the lack of knowledge/understanding (based on a desire to not want to understand) demonstrated in making such a comment.
Sweeping statements and tarring with the one brush is typical of this guy and his ilk I am sorry to say. If he and they took off the blinkers they would realise they would be welcomed and the rules/constitution etc that they quote on GAA aims they would then see mean nothing to GAA people (as they were created a centuary ago) only the sports matter to all - so its themselves stopping themselves from joining.
[/quote]
Quote from: orangeman on April 18, 2008, 11:20:41 AM
Innocent GAA members were harassed, beatenup and indeed murdered simply because they belonged to GAA club - this thread demeans their efforts and in many cases their memory - I'm turning this thread around now -
The Unionist / protestant community should apologise for their behaviour to us - they make amends for their wrong doings of the past amd pay us compensation before we ever consider letting them near our gounds !
That's a bit pointless to be fair. Any of those who murdered or harassed GAA members are hardly the people that are ever going to be interested in joining the GAA and are therefore unlikely to be those the GAA 'reach out' to. Innocent unionists have nothing to apologise for.
[/quote]
there are innocents alright, but plenty who apart from purportrating the acts, assisting the acts etc, there were many silent and complicit by not speaking out and trying to stand up for the apartheid-esque and racist/almost genocical type behavour.
As a victim of this, It irritates me when people gloss over it.
I'd welcome unionists etc to the GAA games etc, but it must not be the case that folk try to tell me that it was all a bit of a misunderstanding and nohing was meant by i and only a few people are actually guilty of cusing the grief and hassle towards GAA folk. That wont wash. Will forget it, as long as pathetic excuses are not being dreamt up ec.
Kevin McGourty has weighed in on this one now as well in this wek's Gaelic Life.
He may make some valid points, however, as for one extract:
Quote"Belive it or not, Jack Boothman - a Protestant - was elected GAA President in the mid '90s, and some of our clubs and stadiums are named after Protestants, like Roger Casements in Portglenone. These examples show that we are already reaching out to the Unionist community."
Now whatever about his position on this debate, such statements surely undermine the credibility of his argument, no? Surely he doesn't believe that these were efforts to reach out to the Unionist community? And surely he understands the difference between Protestant and Unionist? And between Southern Protestants and Nothern Protestants?
He also draws a parallel to the IFA and that a Catholic friend of his attends NI games in Windsor, but:
Quote"Do you think that he will be expecting GSTQ not to be played because he may feel uncomfortable? Let's get real"
Well the fact is that many are shouting for GSTQ/UnionJack to be scrapped at Windsor for exactly those reasons! Maybe not his friend, but many others.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2008, 11:22:31 AM
Haven't been keeping up to date with this, but a few points...
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 17, 2008, 05:23:53 PM
I got tired picking quotes out at that point and that's just from one thread.
Interesting that not one of those quotes mention hating the GAA, in any way. Would it not have been easier to just say, no and save yourself the cutting and pasting?
Sammy, i have to say, your posts are generally fairly measured and balanced, even though a lot of people on here won't agree with you, but from reading the quotes picked out, your response is well off the mark - there is clearly hatred demonstrated, the word 'hate' doesn't have to be used to illustrate hatred.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 17, 2008, 10:31:01 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 10:22:39 PM
Quote from: tyrone86 on April 17, 2008, 09:44:12 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 17, 2008, 06:46:21 PM
There is hatred (for want of a better word) of many of the things that the GAA does, naming kids tournaments after mass murderers for example but that doesn't translate into hatred of the GAA. I'm sure there are lads that don't like the GAA but it would certainly be a lot less than the hatred on here (in this thread alone) for a million of your fellow Irishmen.
Post proof of this or retract it.
The GAA organise the Gerard and Martin Harte cup for Under 12's
so the GAA organise it do they
ohhhh kkkkkkayyy
and pray tell what aspects of mass murder did Gerard and Martin Harte purportrate ?
I must admit, I did not realise there was an All Ireland competition for u12's
To play devil's advocate here, many looking in from outside would say 'yes', the GAA do organise it. It may be through a club, but does it have to be arranged exclusively from Croke Park to be 'organised by the GAA'?
Also, where was the mention of an AI competition for u12s? That comment just undermines your defense and looks like toys out of the pram stuff.
I'm not suggesting that such clubs abandon such tributes to their GAA heroes, that's for them to decide. At the same time, i can understand why it's any easy point for criticism - a soccer competition named after some loyalist would be a target for abuse on here, whether it was arranged by the IFA or a club within it's ranks.
I have a genuine question for Sammy and any other unionists on here: Is the issue with the naming of GAA venues/competitions after republicans limited to those involved in activities over the last 30/40 years? i.e. is there a problem with the likes of Casement Park, or just with examples like the U12 competition mentioned above, related to republicans active during 'the troubles'?
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 17, 2008, 11:52:58 PM
Maybe Sammy G has been in the 'fatherland' too long; from the Belfast Telegraph (today, April 17th), and about Gaelic Games:
...Even up until a decade ago GAA coverage was largely confined to areas of the media where writers and broadcasters were preaching to the converted.
Today, in a pluralist society in which the GAA has given a lead on several fronts - the opening of Croke Park to other sports, a dynamic anti-drugs campaign, a concerted drive to provide the best facilities for members spanning all ages, creeds and classes - the Association, for all its human imperfections, enjoys a level of overall credibility that is the envy of many other organisations, sporting and otherwise.
And that's certainly something to write home about.
Yet we still don't see GAA anywhere near the back pages of the BT!
Quote from: orangeman on April 18, 2008, 11:20:41 AM
Innocent GAA members were harassed, beatenup and indeed murdered simply because they belonged to GAA club - this thread demeans their efforts and in many cases their memory - I'm turning this thread around now -
The Unionist / protestant community should apologise for their behaviour to us - they make amends for their wrong doings of the past amd pay us compensation before we ever consider letting them near our gounds !
That's a bit pointless to be fair. Any of those who murdered or harassed GAA members are hardly the people that are ever going to be interested in joining the GAA and are therefore unlikely to be those the GAA 'reach out' to. Innocent unionists have nothing to apologise for.
Is there such a breed ?
Of course they should apologise and compensate us for their support of the harassment, beatings and murders inflicted upon members of the GAA family.
Quote from: orangeman on April 19, 2008, 02:33:37 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2008, 11:22:31 AM
That's a bit pointless to be fair. Any of those who murdered or harassed GAA members are hardly the people that are ever going to be interested in joining the GAA and are therefore unlikely to be those the GAA 'reach out' to. Innocent unionists have nothing to apologise for.
Is there such a breed ?
Of course they should apologise and compensate us for their support of the harassment, beatings and murders inflicted upon members of the GAA family.
Step forward in your true colours orangeman. It's now much easier to see the context of your argument.
You've shown yourself to be extremely naive, bigoted and sectarian. Do you actually
know any Protestants or Unionists? Any friends who weren't brought up exactly the same as yourself? Have you ever stepped outside of your own bubble?
Yes, you're a product of your environment - we all are to some extent. But surely your world view can't be that blinkered(?)
Why should all protestants apologise for the actions of a minority? Why should they compensate us for the actions of a minority?
Surely all unionists are fully supportive of the British occupation and colonisation of Ulster?
Quote from: armaghniac on April 19, 2008, 03:46:31 PM
Surely all unionists are fully supportive of the British occupation and colonisation of Ulster?
The "pro unionists" wouldn't agree with this ! ;) :D
Quote from: armaghniac on April 19, 2008, 03:46:31 PM
Surely all unionists are fully supportive of the British occupation and colonisation of Ulster?
I'm sure they are.... and your point is???
I, and many others, aspire to a united Ireland. It doesn't mean that all Nationalists support any means to that end.
Oh, and Armaghniac, here's me thinking only Loyalists referred to the 6 counties as Ulster! :P
QuoteOh, and Armaghniac, here's me thinking only Loyalists referred to the 6 counties as Ulster!
The term Plantation of Ulster is the usual one. And how many orangemen in Monaghan tog out for a GAA club?
The point is if you are in favour of a place being ethnically cleansed and its people shunted off to Connacht or wherever and replaced with people whose loyalty is not to that place but another country, then you are not exactly in keeping with the pride in the parish concept that underlies the GAA.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 19, 2008, 06:05:55 PM
QuoteOh, and Armaghniac, here's me thinking only Loyalists referred to the 6 counties as Ulster!
The term Plantation of Ulster is the usual one. And how many orangemen in Monaghan tog out for a GAA club?
The point is if you are in favour of a place being ethnically cleansed and its people shunted off to Connacht or wherever and replaced with people whose loyalty is not to that place but another country, then you are not exactly in keeping with the pride in the parish concept that underlies the GAA.
Armaghniac, stop trying to back-peddle. British occupation relates only to the 6 counties in relation to what's being discussed here - we're not talking about the plantation - ou slipped up, admit it. :P
As for 'ethnic cleansing', who mentioned being in favour of that? Please provide the quote from anyone at this thread supporting eithnic cleansing, either explicitly or implicity. There's no nead for sensationalism.
What does that comment have to do with the GAA reaching out to Unionism? It's not about one group of people replacing another! It's about people living together in a pluralist society, about people who live side by side integrating with each other, something that's clearly a foreign concept (no pun intended) to a number of people here.
Oh, and i don't know if any orangemen tog out for Monaghan, or any club in Monaghan (i don't really see your point here,) but if they were up to the job, they'd be more than welcome.
Most Unionists in the 6 counties don't see themselves as Irish and most have no pride in their Irish identity. Not only not Irish at all, not Irish as a second or even third choice identity.
Those figures are borne out by research/surveys done over the past years.
That's a sad situation. No pride at all in Irish music, Irish culture or Irish sports.
4% are very proud of Irish identity and 24% have some pride. Even amongst those, where would Gaelic Games fit in there? still something to be despised or just about tolerated.
The only real scope for GAA games to spread out more is for it to be played in all schools, to be actively on the sports curriculum.
No surprise that the GAA and Irish culture in general is seen by many unioinists as alien, considering for decades Irish culture and northern catholics were oppressed and subject to constant suspicion and ridicule. Cant expect this mindsight to change overnight, but it will, prob be the next generation though, who will perhaps have a greater sense of Irishness, than previous ones who were raised on insecurities concerning all things Irish.
hopefully this can be reflected in their participation in Gaelic games.
Quote from: Main Street on April 19, 2008, 08:49:56 PM
Most Unionists in the 6 counties don't see themselves as Irish and most have no pride in their Irish identity. Not only not Irish at all, not Irish as a second or even third choice identity.
Those figures are borne out by research/surveys done over the past years.
That's a sad situation. No pride at all in Irish music, Irish culture or Irish sports.
4% are very proud of Irish identity and 24% have some pride. Even amongst those, where would Gaelic Games fit in there? still something to be despised or just about tolerated.
The only real scope for GAA games to spread out more is for it to be played in all schools, to be actively on the sports curriculum.
But for one million Unionists, the 4% = 40,000 (Monaghan, Fermanagh and Cavan all have populations of just over 50,000) and 24% = 240,000, a population the size of Belfast. That's pretty significant, even if only a minority of this minority would ever consider getting involved with the GAA.
For decades members of rge GAA have been abused going to matches by the unionist population who uphold the right of Britain to treat us like 2nd class citizens and as people who they believe to be subversives. This same unionist population still see us as a threat, see us as republicans who want to obliterate them.
So Maguire, wake up, smell the coffee - unionists DON'T want to integrate with us.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2008, 10:44:02 PM
Quote from: Main Street on April 19, 2008, 08:49:56 PM
Most Unionists in the 6 counties don't see themselves as Irish and most have no pride in their Irish identity. Not only not Irish at all, not Irish as a second or even third choice identity.
Those figures are borne out by research/surveys done over the past years.
That's a sad situation. No pride at all in Irish music, Irish culture or Irish sports.
4% are very proud of Irish identity and 24% have some pride. Even amongst those, where would Gaelic Games fit in there? still something to be despised or just about tolerated.
The only real scope for GAA games to spread out more is for it to be played in all schools, to be actively on the sports curriculum.
But for one million Unionists, the 4% = 40,000 (Monaghan, Fermanagh and Cavan all have populations of just over 50,000) and 24% = 240,000, a population the size of Belfast. That's pretty significant, even if only a minority of this minority would ever consider getting involved with the GAA.
Maguire, why not start a thread on how we should embrace the eastern europeans / migrant workers who are here in even greater numbers than the protestant population ??
Is that not happening already? I'm all for it. I'd say giving out free tickets to said immingrants for last year's Railway Cup Final was a good start (despite the uptake), but let's keep it up - it would be an important means of integrating these people into our society. Open the doors to anyone who wants to become involved!
I just thought that this thread was about the barriers, real or perceived, to Unionists becoming involved. (Just out of curiosity, are there more than a million immigrants at this stage?)
EDIT - i googled it! (and there's more protestants, at the minute at least - not that it really matters)
QuoteIt is predicted that by 2020 the population of Ireland will have grown from 4.1 million to 5.3 million. The number of immigrants will have risen from 400,000 to 1 million and will account for 19% of the country's population.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2008, 10:52:09 PM
Is that not happening already? I'm all for it. I'd say giving out free tickets to said immingrants for last year's Railway Cup Final was a good start (despite the uptake), but let's keep it up - it would be an important means of integrating these people into our society. Open the doors to anyone who wants to become involved!
I just thought that this thread was about the barriers, real or perceived, to Unionists becoming involved. (Just out of curiosity, are there more than a million immigrants at this stage?)
EDIT - i googled it! (and there's more protestants, at the minute at least - not that it really matters)
QuoteIt is predicted that by 2020 the population of Ireland will have grown from 4.1 million to 5.3 million. The number of immigrants will have risen from 400,000 to 1 million and will account for 19% of the country's population.
I'd say there is easily a million immigrants !
Open the doors to those who WANT to become involved - I've no problem with that but unionists simply don't want to be involved with us at this point in time ( if they EVER do ).
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2008, 10:44:02 PM
Quote from: Main Street on April 19, 2008, 08:49:56 PM
Most Unionists in the 6 counties don't see themselves as Irish and most have no pride in their Irish identity. Not only not Irish at all, not Irish as a second or even third choice identity.
Those figures are borne out by research/surveys done over the past years.
That's a sad situation. No pride at all in Irish music, Irish culture or Irish sports.
4% are very proud of Irish identity and 24% have some pride. Even amongst those, where would Gaelic Games fit in there? still something to be despised or just about tolerated.
The only real scope for GAA games to spread out more is for it to be played in all schools, to be actively on the sports curriculum.
But for one million Unionists, the 4% = 40,000 (Monaghan, Fermanagh and Cavan all have populations of just over 50,000) and 24% = 240,000, a population the size of Belfast. That's pretty significant, even if only a minority of this minority would ever consider getting involved with the GAA.
You believing propaganda, where you get 1 million from?
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on April 20, 2008, 01:02:06 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 19, 2008, 10:44:02 PM
Quote from: Main Street on April 19, 2008, 08:49:56 PM
Most Unionists in the 6 counties don't see themselves as Irish and most have no pride in their Irish identity. Not only not Irish at all, not Irish as a second or even third choice identity.
Those figures are borne out by research/surveys done over the past years.
That's a sad situation. No pride at all in Irish music, Irish culture or Irish sports.
4% are very proud of Irish identity and 24% have some pride. Even amongst those, where would Gaelic Games fit in there? still something to be despised or just about tolerated.
The only real scope for GAA games to spread out more is for it to be played in all schools, to be actively on the sports curriculum.
But for one million Unionists, the 4% = 40,000 (Monaghan, Fermanagh and Cavan all have populations of just over 50,000) and 24% = 240,000, a population the size of Belfast. That's pretty significant, even if only a minority of this minority would ever consider getting involved with the GAA.
You believing propaganda, where you get 1 million from?
A very rough calculation - 2001 Census for Northern Ireland notes a 'population of 1.7 million' with a Unionist majority. 1 million is also generally the rough figure used to in the media when referring to the number of Unionists in Ireland. It's not scientific, but it's a bit better than...
Quote from: orangeman on April 19, 2008, 11:14:03 PM
I'd say there is easily a million immigrants !
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0329/census.html (http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0329/census.html) - that's as good as i could find from a reliable source, but yes, it's slightly out of date, referring only to the Republic, and numbers will be up on that. But does all this number crunching really matter? You'd never be convinced anyway Orangeman, so it's all a bit pointless, pedantic and off the topic.
Quote from: Main Street on April 19, 2008, 08:49:56 PM
Most Unionists in the 6 counties don't see themselves as Irish and most have no pride in their Irish identity. Not only not Irish at all, not Irish as a second or even third choice identity.
Those figures are borne out by research/surveys done over the past years.
That's a sad situation. No pride at all in Irish music, Irish culture or Irish sports.
4% are very proud of Irish identity and 24% have some pride. Even amongst those, where would Gaelic Games fit in there? still something to be despised or just about tolerated.
The only real scope for GAA games to spread out more is for it to be played in all schools, to be actively on the sports curriculum.
Where did those figures come from? Genuine question.
Quote from: SammyG on April 20, 2008, 10:41:30 AM
Where did those figures come from? Genuine question.
As distinct from your disingenuous questions ::)
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/results/polatt.html#identity (http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/results/polatt.html#identity)
Quote from: Main Street on April 20, 2008, 10:53:10 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 20, 2008, 10:41:30 AM
Where did those figures come from? Genuine question.
As distinct from your disingenuous questions ::)
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/results/polatt.html#identity (http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/results/polatt.html#identity)
;D ;D ;D This is getting ridiculous ! ;)
Quote from: Main Street on April 20, 2008, 10:53:10 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 20, 2008, 10:41:30 AM
Where did those figures come from? Genuine question.
As distinct from your disingenuous questions ::)
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/results/polatt.html#identity (http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/results/polatt.html#identity)
Very interesting link but I can't see any mention any of the figures you've quoted. Can you tell me what section they're in?
If you cant see, I cant gift you sight.
Quote from: Main Street on April 20, 2008, 04:12:44 PM
If you cant see, I cant gift you sight.
Does that mean you just made the figures up or are you just playing silly buggers?
"silly buggers" ???
where do you learn to speak like that?
Starting with this one
UNINATID: Do you think of yourself as a unionist, a nationalist or neither?
12 surveys over diff years
down to
PROUDIR: How proud are you of being Irish?
Quote from: Main Street on April 20, 2008, 04:34:38 PM
"silly buggers" ???
where do you learn to speak like that?
Phrase was deliberately chosen to (hopefully) avoid getting a ban/warning for using something stronger.
Quote from: Main Street on April 20, 2008, 04:34:38 PM
Starting with this one
UNINATID: Do you think of yourself as a unionist, a nationalist or neither?
12 surveys over diff years
down to
PROUDIR: How proud are you of being Irish?
Just read those (again as I read them the first time you posted the link) and I still can't see anything like the figures you quoted.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2003/Political_Attitudes/PROUDIR.html (http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2003/Political_Attitudes/PROUDIR.html)
Last table sammy.
No doubt you'll come back giving out about unionists being labeled as protestants or some other nonsense for the next three pages.
And you've the nerve to accuse someone else of playing "silly buggers".
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 20, 2008, 05:52:06 PM
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2003/Political_Attitudes/PROUDIR.html (http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2003/Political_Attitudes/PROUDIR.html)
Last table sammy.
No doubt you'll come back giving out about unionists being labeled as protestants or some other nonsense for the next three pages.
And you've the nerve to accuse someone else of playing "silly buggers".
So you agree that Main Street invented his figures. Good glad I'm not the only one.
Just to remind you MS said
QuoteMost Unionists in the 6 counties don't see themselves as Irish and most have no pride in their Irish identity. Not only not Irish at all, not Irish as a second or even third choice identity.
Those figures are borne out by research/surveys done over the past years.
That's a sad situation. No pride at all in Irish music, Irish culture or Irish sports.
The survey doesn't even ask that question, nevermind providing the answers he claims
Quote4% are very proud of Irish identity and 24% have some pride. Even amongst those, where would Gaelic Games fit in there? still something to be despised or just about tolerated.
Again neither asked nor answered by the report.
I don't see any difference in what the survey provides and what main street has said but I can't be bothered getting too bogged down in it. The GAA have some real problems and have no time for getting wrapped up in silly little arguments with people who have no interest in the GAA and are only intent on twisting words and playing "silly buggers" in an attempt to avoid the real issues.
So for now, I'll just say "whatever you say". ::)
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 20, 2008, 06:07:50 PM
I don't see any difference in what the survey provides and what main street has said but I can't be bothered getting too bogged down in it. The GAA have some real problems and have no time for getting wrapped up in silly little arguments with people who have no interest in the GAA and are only intent on twisting words and playing "silly buggers" in an attempt to avoid the real issues.
So for now, I'll just say "whatever you say". ::)
Exactly, forget about them - they're not worth talking to !
Lads i would agree with pints there are many problems going on in the GAA but sammy you will have to acknowledge that the majority of Unionists are not concerned with gaelic games as they see no connection with themselves or the preservation of the union within it. If i was a Unionists i wouldn't want to be part of the GAA, Simply because it is an organisation structured to strengthen Irish Identity . For some silly reason unionists don't see themselves as Irish and prefer to be called British. I don't get the reasoning behind this. The bottom line is that sure the are some Unionists that are moderate and realise that the GAA is already a part of their culture and want to further embrace it. But there are others who fail to realise that the GAA is ( wheter they like it or not part of their culture) simply because they live on the Island of Ireland whether it be north or south. So to say we need to change certain areas is going about it the wrong way. Issues have to raised but they must firstt understand the complexity of the situation before crying out for change and always being the victim.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 02:12:59 PM
Lads i would agree with pints there are many problems going on in the GAA but sammy you will have to acknowledge that the majority of Unionists are not concerned with gaelic games as they see no connection with themselves or the preservation of the union within it.
Most Unionists (certainly the ones that I know) want the GAA to decide whether it is a sporting/cultural organisation or a political one. If it was purely a sporting/cultural organisation then more Unionists would be interested. I'm not suggesting, for one minute, that you would scrap the political shite one day and have 1 million new members the next day but over time it would happen.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 02:12:59 PM
If i was a Unionists i wouldn't want to be part of the GAA, Simply because it is an organisation structured to strengthen Irish Identity . For some silly reason unionists don't see themselves as Irish and prefer to be called British. I don't get the reasoning behind this.
You're missing the point, Unionists are just as Irish as Nationalists but we are also British. The two are not mutually exclusive, any more than being Scottish and British or Welsh and British.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 02:12:59 PM
The bottom line is that sure the are some Unionists that are moderate and realise that the GAA is already a part of their culture and want to further embrace it. But there are others who fail to realise that the GAA is ( wheter they like it or not part of their culture) simply because they live on the Island of Ireland whether it be north or south. So to say we need to change certain areas is going about it the wrong way. Issues have to raised but they must firstt understand the complexity of the situation before crying out for change and always being the victim.
I'm sorry but naming clubs and trophies, after people, who spent the last 30 odd years conducting a sectarian 'war', against their fellow Irishmen, isn't part of my culture and I'm sure isn't part of the culture of many Nationalists either.
GAA is not a political organisation.
Sammy, it would seem the unionists want to veto and cherry pick their way through things, when their majority and power for doing so has gone (and majority diminishing - although I genuinely do not believe that you or your culture are under any actual threat etc...honestly , you will be 'embraced' way more than you would believe even from northern republicans).
In time all will be forgotton and the likes of modern day Irish and unionist warmongers will be not hated by either side - in the way that O'Connell, Wolfe Tone, O'brien, Emmett, Pearse, Connolly, collins, Develara etc are now seen as historical 'heores' while being
of differing religious faiths.
time will heal and our differences will long be forgotten - as the above example demonstrates what heppens with the passing of time.
No sammy you ask most unionists are they Irish and they will say no way. As i have already said Unionism and Nationalism are completly in opposition to each other, speaking in ideological terms.Unionism would not exist without the preservation of the Union. The Union comes from Britain but it is difficult to have dual nationality as you are claiming. If you ask a scottish person what their nationality is they will say scottish. A Unionist in our part of the country would claim they were british straight away. Here lies the difference of mindsets. The GAA is a sporting organisation based on promoting Irish culture and it recognises the 32 county status. These are the terms under which the organisation exist. This wasn't set up as any political statement or with any hidden agenda. It is clear that is what the organisation is and will remain. The GAA is non politcal but there are things in our society that are so political that they overlap with the GAA. Ie GAA members also being members of the IRA. It' s the same as rugby fans being members of the LVF or loyalist flute bands. The GAA cannot be responsible for this any more so than rugby. Rugby is a foreign sport to Ireland the GAA is not. The GAA have, rightfully so named clubs and grounds after certain individuals that were influential in Irish society. Again this wasn't done for any hidden reason only to remember and respect the the time these people put into the GAA. Face up to reality and understand that people can exist in the same society with differences. Everything doesn't have to be rosy in the garden to move forward. We can exist side by side with different ideologies as long as we are grown up and don't always search for negatives in life.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
No sammy you ask most unionists are they Irish and they will say no way.
Sorry but that is nonsense.
As i have already said Unionism and Nationalism are completly in opposition to each other, speaking in ideological terms.Unionism would not exist without the preservation of the Union. The Union comes from Britain but it is difficult to have dual nationality as you are claiming.[/quote]
I have never claimed dual nationality.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
If you ask a scottish person what their nationality is they will say scottish.
Well they'd be talking nonsense as there is no such thing nationality as Scottish (and I doubt any would actually say it). Their nationality is British but their identity is Scottish.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
A Unionist in our part of the country would claim they were british straight away.
I've no idea what that means.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
Here lies the difference of mindsets. The GAA is a sporting organisation based on promoting Irish culture and it recognises the 32 county status. These are the terms under which the organisation exist. This wasn't set up as any political statement or with any hidden agenda. It is clear that is what the organisation is and will remain.
The GAA's Official Guide says different.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
The GAA is non politcal
Are you having a laugh?
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
but there are things in our society that are so political that they overlap with the GAA. Ie GAA members also being members of the IRA. [/qIt' s the same as rugby fans being members of the LVF or loyalist flute bands. The GAA cannot be responsible for this any more so than rugby. Rugby is a foreign sport to Ireland the GAA is not.
Firstly why is rugby any more or less 'foreign' than the GAA and secondly the first time that a Billy Wright Rugby Club are founded I'll criticise them as well (but this has never and would never happen).
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
The GAA have, rightfully so named clubs and grounds after certain individuals that were influential in Irish society.
In what way were Martin and Gerard Harte 'influential in Irish society'?
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PMAgain this wasn't done for any hidden reason only to remember and respect the the time these people put into the GAA.
Absolute nonsense, there are thousands of people who put time and effort into the GAA but strangely the only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
Face up to reality and understand that people can exist in the same society with differences. Everything doesn't have to be rosy in the garden to move forward. We can exist side by side with different ideologies as long as we are grown up and don't always search for negatives in life.
Totally agree and have never said anything different.
QuoteAbsolute nonsense, there are thousands of people who put time and effort into the GAA but strangely the only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
Sammy, cop on. You always jump down the throat of lads slating OWC who haven't the full 'facts', so fo you to say something like that is very hard to take. Was Archbishop Croke a sectarian murderer? Cop on.
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 21, 2008, 04:02:19 PM
QuoteAbsolute nonsense, there are thousands of people who put time and effort into the GAA but strangely the only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
Sammy, cop on. You always jump down the throat of lads slating OWC who haven't the full 'facts', so fo you to say something like that is very hard to take. Was Archbishop Croke a sectarian murderer? Cop on.
Sorry, I meant currently, rather than historically.
And maybe you meant currently, in certain areas. I have no idea, but I know trophies are named after young lads who die early down here, ex-chairmen get fields named after them etc. etc.
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 21, 2008, 04:05:46 PM
And maybe you meant currently, in certain areas. I have no idea, but I know trophies are named after young lads who die early down here, ex-chairmen get fields named after them etc. etc.
...and pitches named after priests - would that cause problems for them too I wonder...
And the Cormac McAnallen Cup. Brutal stuff altogether.
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 21, 2008, 04:10:08 PM
And the Cormac McAnallen Cup. Brutal stuff altogether.
Tut tut !!!!!!! :( :( :(
I'm being sarcastic Orangeman. Obviously Cormac McAnallen is commemorated for his impact as a person and a player on the GAA, and because he was taken from us so early. It's an example of someone who is clearly not a 'sectarian murderer'.
I know I know - I was being sarcastic !! ;)
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 21, 2008, 04:19:35 PM
I'm being sarcastic Orangeman. Obviously Cormac McAnallen is commemorated for his impact as a person and a player on the GAA, and because he was taken from us so early. It's an example of someone who is clearly not a 'sectarian murderer'.
I would have no problem with my kids playing for a Cormac McAnallen Trophy but I would have a major problem with them playing for the Gerard and Martin Harte Cup, or at the Kevin Lynch Ground, or in the Bobby Sands Memorial tournament, or the Cumann na Fuiseoige team. All of these have been launched/competed for in the last few years and have been endorsed by visits from GAA officials.
What I am saying Sammy, without getting into what you consider or don't consider certain people to be, is that there are many other examples of grounds, cups and other items named after people who have no connection with, or association with, what you are getting at. That's why I took exception to this comment.
Quotethe only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
Quote from: SammyG on April 21, 2008, 05:41:35 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 21, 2008, 04:19:35 PM
I'm being sarcastic Orangeman. Obviously Cormac McAnallen is commemorated for his impact as a person and a player on the GAA, and because he was taken from us so early. It's an example of someone who is clearly not a 'sectarian murderer'.
I would have no problem with my kids playing for a Cormac McAnallen Trophy but I would have a major problem with them playing for the Gerard and Martin Harte Cup, or at the Kevin Lynch Ground, or in the Bobby Sands Memorial tournament, or the Cumann na Fuiseoige team. All of these have been launched/competed for in the last few years and have been endorsed by visits from GAA officials.
So is that why you want us to go to Windsor Park where another GAA man ( Neil Lennon ) got hounded out if it ! I love your consistent approach Sammy ! ;) :D ;D
Quote from: orangeman on April 21, 2008, 06:21:38 PM
So is that why you want us to go to Windsor Park where another GAA man ( Neil Lennon ) got hounded out if it ! I love your consistent approach Sammy ! ;) :D ;D
WTF are you on about? Is that the same Windsor Park that is used as a practice ground by a local Camogie team or a different one? Also which bit of Windsor Park is named after a sectarian murderer?
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 21, 2008, 05:45:27 PM
What I am saying Sammy, without getting into what you consider or don't consider certain people to be, is that there are many other examples of grounds, cups and other items named after people who have no connection with, or association with, what you are getting at. That's why I took exception to this comment.
Quotethe only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
I know what you're saying and accept it, which is why I apologsed earlier but there are still a lot of bad (for want of a better word) examples.
Well, you said 'older' names were generally ok, but the modern one were what you are talking about. That's why I mentioned the cups and grounds that are named in modern times. But I know what you are getting at. I just couldn't let that go unchallenged.
Good humour hardstation :D :D. So
sammy would i be right in saying that you are of the opinion that the GAA deliberately name grounds and other things after "sectarian killers" in order to put unionists off joining the GAA??
Or would you be saying that the GAA are not doing enough to stop these names being used and therefore as a result unionists re being isolated or in many circumsatnces unwanted?
or perhaps you are saying neither . clarify is please.
Plus i am not buying into your spake about there being no scottish nationality , that is laughable.
we have started to reach out - theyre call grant applications ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 02:12:59 PM
For some silly reason unionists don't see themselves as Irish and prefer to be called British. I don't get the reasoning behind this.
Seriously? You don't understand? Do you live in this country at all?! :P
well maguire you make a case for unionist not being Irish. Then tell how Irish culture is not equally unionist culture??? I await your reply.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 08:51:58 PM
sammy would i be right in saying that you are of the opinion that the GAA deliberately name grounds and other things after "sectarian killers" in order to put unionists off joining the GAA??
Or would you be saying that the GAA are not doing enough to stop these names being used and therefore as a result unionists re being isolated or in many circumsatnces unwanted?
or perhaps you are saying neither . clarify is please.
Both. The GAA, on the ground, are clearly making extreme Republican political statements and the GAA as an organisation are refusing to stop them and in many cases actually encouraging them by turning up at ground openings etc.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 08:51:58 PM
Plus i am not buying into your spake about there being no scottish nationality , that is laughable.
If you can show me a Scottish passport then I'll believe you.
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 07:20:04 AM
If you can show me a Scottish passport then I'll believe you.
That is merely a technacallity and a very weak arguement for Nationality. It's almost like saying if you are white you can not be a South Afican National.
Quote from: Zapatista on April 22, 2008, 08:18:44 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 07:20:04 AM
If you can show me a Scottish passport then I'll believe you.
That is merely a technacallity and a very weak arguement for Nationality. It's almost like saying if you are white you can not be a South Afican National.
I have absolutely no idea what that means. What have white (or black or any other colour) South Africans got to do with Scotland?
I am simply stating the fact that you can not be a Scottish national or a Welsh national or an English National or a Northern Irish national as none of those exist. I'm not saying that people don't feel Scottish or have allegiance to Scotland or describe themselves as Scottish or whatever, I'm just talking about nationality.
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 08:23:19 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 22, 2008, 08:18:44 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 07:20:04 AM
If you can show me a Scottish passport then I'll believe you.
That is merely a technacallity and a very weak arguement for Nationality. It's almost like saying if you are white you can not be a South Afican National.
I have absolutely no idea what that means. What have white (or black or any other colour) South Africans got to do with Scotland?
I am simply stating the fact that you can not be a Scottish national or a Welsh national or an English National or a Northern Irish national as none of those exist. I'm not saying that people don't feel Scottish or have allegiance to Scotland or describe themselves as Scottish or whatever, I'm just talking about nationality.
If we introduce an EU wide passport as we did with the currency will that mean I am no longer an Irish person?
Quote from: Zapatista on April 22, 2008, 08:25:04 AM
If we introduce an EU wide passport as we did with the currency will that mean I am no longer an Irish person?
No it would mean you were no longer an Irish citizen, you'd be a European Citizen but you'd still be an Irish person.
That's enough shite about passports and such like - back to the main thread - unionists don't accept the GAA and see it as a way of beatng nationalisits into shape by taking away from them their identity.
Quote from: orangeman on April 22, 2008, 09:15:53 AM
That's enough shite about passports and such like - back to the main thread - unionists don't accept the GAA and see it as a way of beatng nationalisits into shape by taking away from them their identity.
As seen with the language. It's called colonialism.
Quote from: Zapatista on April 22, 2008, 09:44:19 AM
Quote from: orangeman on April 22, 2008, 09:15:53 AM
That's enough shite about passports and such like - back to the main thread - unionists don't accept the GAA and see it as a way of beatng nationalisits into shape by taking away from them their identity.
As seen with the language. It's called colonialism.
;D :D :D ;D :o :o :o
Quotethe only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
just tell me sammy which grounds are named after "sectarian killers" ?
evidence please- or are you peddling your lies again!
I presume you are all ok when we name our grounds/stands after fellas who were murdered (like the hogan stand) ::)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 09:52:44 AM
Quotethe only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
just tell me sammy which grounds are named after "sectarian killers" ?
evidence please- or are you peddling your lies again!
I presume you are all ok when we name our grounds/stands after fellas who were murdered (like the hogan stand) ::)
Lynchboy - just ignore him - unionist bigotry is alive and well !
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 09:52:44 AM
Quotethe only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
just tell me sammy which grounds are named after "sectarian killers" ?
evidence please- or are you peddling your lies again!
See the list in my previous post.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 09:52:44 AM
I presume you are all ok when we name our grounds/stands after fellas who were murdered (like the hogan stand) ::)
I've always said that I'd prefer all political stuff to be removed but accept that commemorating stuff that happened before any of us were born, is different to commemorating current events.
Quote from: orangeman on April 22, 2008, 09:55:55 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 09:52:44 AM
Quotethe only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
just tell me sammy which grounds are named after "sectarian killers" ?
evidence please- or are you peddling your lies again!
I presume you are all ok when we name our grounds/stands after fellas who were murdered (like the hogan stand) ::)
Lynchboy - just ignore him - unionist bigotry is alive and well !
no I want to see him squirm out of this one (which he cant)
he has mouthed of yet another lie, and usually we let it pass, but this time I felt like calling his bluff....
but apart from that, you are right and unionist bigotry is alive and well ...its just living proof of why its pointless the GAA attempting to 'reach out' as unionist goalposts are on well greased wheels.
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 10:12:34 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 09:52:44 AM
Quotethe only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
just tell me sammy which grounds are named after "sectarian killers" ?
evidence please- or are you peddling your lies again!
See the list in my previous post.
no please point them out as there are none named in any of the 'list ' previously provided
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 10:13:10 AM
Quote from: orangeman on April 22, 2008, 09:55:55 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 09:52:44 AM
Quotethe only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
just tell me sammy which grounds are named after "sectarian killers" ?
evidence please- or are you peddling your lies again!
I presume you are all ok when we name our grounds/stands after fellas who were murdered (like the hogan stand) ::)
Lynchboy - just ignore him - unionist bigotry is alive and well !
no I want to see him squirm out of this one (which he cant)
he has mouthed of yet another lie, and usually we let it pass, but this time I felt like calling his bluff....
but apart from that, you are right and unionist bigotry is alive and well ...its just living proof of why its pointless the GAA attempting to 'reach out' as unionist goalposts are on well greased wheels.
Go for it Lynchboy - I'm fed up reading his sly comments !
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 10:13:55 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 10:12:34 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 09:52:44 AM
Quotethe only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
just tell me sammy which grounds are named after "sectarian killers" ?
evidence please- or are you peddling your lies again!
See the list in my previous post.
no please point them out as there are none named in any of the 'list ' previously provided
You're obviously having trouble reading, so I'll quote the post again
QuoteI would have a major problem with them playing for the Gerard and Martin Harte Cup, or at the Kevin Lynch Ground, or in the Bobby Sands Memorial tournament, or the Cumann na Fuiseoige team.
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 10:13:55 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 10:12:34 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 09:52:44 AM
Quotethe only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
just tell me sammy which grounds are named after "sectarian killers" ?
evidence please- or are you peddling your lies again!
See the list in my previous post.
no please point them out as there are none named in any of the 'list ' previously provided
You're obviously having trouble reading, so I'll quote the post again
QuoteI would have a major problem with them playing for the Gerard and Martin Harte Cup, or at the Kevin Lynch Ground, or in the Bobby Sands Memorial tournament, or the Cumann na Fuiseoige team.
I can only see one ground mentioned there
am I not seeing part of your post?
feel free to apologise at any stage!
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 10:21:21 AMI can only see one ground mentioned there
am I not seeing part of your post?
feel free to apologise at any stage!
It might be an idea to read my posts before you reply to them, I never mentioned grounds I said 'clubs and trophies'.
Feel free to apologise at any stage. ::)
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 10:25:29 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 10:21:21 AMI can only see one ground mentioned there
am I not seeing part of your post?
feel free to apologise at any stage!
It might be an idea to read my posts before you reply to them, I never mentioned grounds I said 'clubs and trophies'.
Feel free to apologise at any stage. ::)
I think its yourself that needs to learn how to read
if you look at the question you evaded a couple of times then answered by the last post with your very squirming
'I never mentioned grounds I said 'clubs and trophies'.'
you are trying to backpeddle as per unionistly usual
look at what you said earlier - which demonstrates you were not merely talking about clubs and tropies:
[/quote]
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
Again this wasn't done for any hidden reason only to remember and respect the the time these people put into the GAA.
to be answered by you with:
Absolute nonsense, there are thousands of people who put time and effort into the GAA but strangely the only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers.
[/quote]
so you see that you were lampooning EVERYTHING here...in spite of earlier mentioning clubs and trophies
but as the question I asked you was :
Quote from: lynchbhoy on Today at 10:13:55 AM
just tell me sammy which grounds are named after "sectarian killers" ?
evidence please- or are you peddling your lies again!
well you are either very stupid and cannot read, or you are using the usual unionist/loyalist trick of 'implying' that GAA grounds were named after murderers - which Kevin Lynch was most def not, so unless you have proof of any ground that is, I'd keep your bigoted mouth and keyboard shut and talk about something you actually know about or can discuss - rather thanpeddling lies and mistruths.
there you go maguire01 - this guy has proved what we were saying all along. Folks like this just LOOK to be offended.
and not an iota of decency , no apology or acknowledgement when wrong, just indignant b.s. ::)
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 09:13:29 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 22, 2008, 08:25:04 AM
If we introduce an EU wide passport as we did with the currency will that mean I am no longer an Irish person?
No it would mean you were no longer an Irish citizen, you'd be a European Citizen but you'd still be an Irish person.
Really ::) ::) ::)
Quote from: Zapatista on April 22, 2008, 11:02:05 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 09:13:29 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 22, 2008, 08:25:04 AM
If we introduce an EU wide passport as we did with the currency will that mean I am no longer an Irish person?
No it would mean you were no longer an Irish citizen, you'd be a European Citizen but you'd still be an Irish person.
Really ::) ::) ::)
Yes really. Why what else would it mean?
s t i l l w a i t i n g . . . . . .
(typed slowly and used extra spaces in case it is just inability to read and not just a case of been caught lying through his teeth and not being able to show any example to back up the lie again) ::)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 01:07:18 PM
s t i l l w a i t i n g . . . . . .
(typed slowly and used extra spaces in case it is just inability to read and not just a case of been caught lying through his teeth and not being able to show any example to back up the lie again) ::)
Still waiting for what? I answered your question.
Lads, if you are waiting for an apology or retraction from Sammy you will be waiting a long while.
He is a proven liar on here and has been caught out on numerous occasions but never once held his hands up and admitted it when "outed".
I wouldnt waste to much time on him, he deliberatly stalls and tries to muddy the water purely to wind people up. Its his pathetic little way of winding up people here so his tiny little army of owc followers can whoop and holler and tell each other how lord Sammy is sticking it to the GAA.
And he is a grumpy bollix too ;)
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 22, 2008, 01:28:23 PM
Lads, if you are waiting for an apology or retraction from Sammy you will be waiting a long while.
He is a proven liar on here and has been caught out on numerous occasions but never once held his hands up and admitted it when "outed".
Lynchbhoy asked me a question and I answered him. No lies, no stalling, just a straight answer. But sure don't let the facts get in the way.
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 22, 2008, 01:28:23 PMAnd he is a grumpy bollix too ;)
That one is true.
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 12:52:02 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 22, 2008, 11:02:05 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 09:13:29 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 22, 2008, 08:25:04 AM
If we introduce an EU wide passport as we did with the currency will that mean I am no longer an Irish person?
No it would mean you were no longer an Irish citizen, you'd be a European Citizen but you'd still be an Irish person.
Really ::) ::) ::)
Yes really. Why what else would it mean?
If I have no passport at all does that mean I am a non national or non citizen?
Someone take that spade of Sammy please.
Sorry for ignoreing you HH ;D
Quote from: Zapatista on April 22, 2008, 01:34:01 PM
Sorry for ignoreing you HH ;D
Sometimes its good to be ignored ;)
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 22, 2008, 01:28:23 PM
Lads, if you are waiting for an apology or retraction from Sammy you will be waiting a long while.
He is a proven liar on here and has been caught out on numerous occasions but never once held his hands up and admitted it when "outed".
I wouldnt waste to much time on him, he deliberatly stalls and tries to muddy the water purely to wind people up. Its his pathetic little way of winding up people here so his tiny little army of owc followers can whoop and holler and tell each other how lord Sammy is sticking it to the GAA.
And he is a grumpy bollix too ;)
Is it Ian Junior in disguise ?? ;) ;) :D :D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 01:22:41 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 01:07:18 PM
s t i l l w a i t i n g . . . . . .
(typed slowly and used extra spaces in case it is just inability to read and not just a case of been caught lying through his teeth and not being able to show any example to back up the lie again) ::)
Still waiting for what? I answered your question.
nope you didnt
the question was
Quote from: lynchbhoy on Today at 10:13:55 AM
just tell me sammy which grounds are named after "sectarian killers" ?
evidence please- or are you peddling your lies again!
you say you didnt mean the 'grounds' but your comment :
"Absolute nonsense, there are thousands of people who put time and effort into the GAA but strangely the only ones that get 'remembered' are sectarian murderers"
brings every name into the equation - clubs, cups and grounds.
But are you now telling us that - no, you do not mean 'grounds named after people' when you are quoting 'sectarian murderers' ?
Sammy a piece of paper is not the be all or end of for a nationality. In fact it is pretty insignificant. Go and look up the meaning of nationality, i would doubt you will find the issue of a passport at the forefront.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 01:45:29 PMBut are you now telling us that - no, you do not mean 'grounds named after people' when you are quoting 'sectarian murderers' ?
Fcuk me this is getting silly now. You're having a go at me because of something you said. ::) Must remember that one, it's a good technique.
Any way to answer your specific question regarding grounds named after murderers, the ones that I know of are
Kevin Lynch (I'm fairly sure you've heard of that one)
Louis Leonard Park in Fermanagh
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 22, 2008, 02:31:44 PM
Sammy a piece of paper is not the be all or end of for a nationality. In fact it is pretty insignificant. Go and look up the meaning of nationality, i would doubt you will find the issue of a passport at the forefront.
I didn't say that a passport was the be all and end all of nationality. A passport is just the bit of paper that demonstrates your nationality, obviously there is a lot more behind it than just the bit of paper.
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 01:45:29 PMBut are you now telling us that - no, you do not mean 'grounds named after people' when you are quoting 'sectarian murderers' ?
Fcuk me this is getting silly now. You're having a go at me because of something you said. ::) Must remember that one, it's a good technique.
Any way to answer your specific question regarding grounds named after murderers, the ones that I know of are
Kevin Lynch (I'm fairly sure you've heard of that one)
Louis Leonard Park in Fermanagh
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
I cannot speak for the Fermanagh and Armagh grounds,
but if your assertions on them are as accurate on the one in dungiven, then your argument is null, void and you are lying through your teeth again , but this time I have bothered to pick you up on it.
Please tell me how Kevin Lynch was a sectarian murderer?
and then if you want do likewise forLeonard, Lochrie and campbell.
go back to your wee rat-friends to get all the info again, this time try to get correct factual information,
not the 'makey-uppie' stuff that unionsts/loyalists were guilty of in the 'bad old days' (pre-GFA).
could you not just admit you are wrong and guilty of lying rather than trying to peddle bigger lies?
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:03:46 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 01:45:29 PMBut are you now telling us that - no, you do not mean 'grounds named after people' when you are quoting 'sectarian murderers' ?
Fcuk me this is getting silly now. You're having a go at me because of something you said. ::) Must remember that one, it's a good technique.
Any way to answer your specific question regarding grounds named after murderers, the ones that I know of are
Kevin Lynch (I'm fairly sure you've heard of that one)
Louis Leonard Park in Fermanagh
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
I cannot speak for the Fermanagh and Armagh grounds,
but if your assertions on them are as accurate on the one in dungiven, then your argument is null, void and you are lying through your teeth again , but this time I have bothered to pick you up on it.
Please tell me how Kevin Lynch was a sectarian murderer?
and then if you want do likewise forLeonard, Lochrie and campbell.
go back to your wee rat-friends to get all the info again, this time try to get correct factual information,
not the 'makey-uppie' stuff that unionsts/loyalists were guilty of in the 'bad old days' (pre-GFA).
could you not just admit you are wrong and guilty of lying rather than trying to peddle bigger lies?
Do you need a hand moving those goalposts or are you alright?
You make up something that I never said and then ask me a question about it. Even though I never said it in the first place, I still answer your question and you now decide that I'm lying even though you 'can't speak for' the grounds in question.
I have not lied, stalled, twisited or anything else, I've answered your question. The fact that you don't like the answer isn't my problem and certainly doesn't make me a liar.
No, but you repeatedly telling lies does.
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 03:12:56 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:03:46 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 01:45:29 PMBut are you now telling us that - no, you do not mean 'grounds named after people' when you are quoting 'sectarian murderers' ?
Fcuk me this is getting silly now. You're having a go at me because of something you said. ::) Must remember that one, it's a good technique.
Any way to answer your specific question regarding grounds named after murderers, the ones that I know of are
Kevin Lynch (I'm fairly sure you've heard of that one)
Louis Leonard Park in Fermanagh
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
I cannot speak for the Fermanagh and Armagh grounds,
but if your assertions on them are as accurate on the one in dungiven, then your argument is null, void and you are lying through your teeth again , but this time I have bothered to pick you up on it.
Please tell me how Kevin Lynch was a sectarian murderer?
and then if you want do likewise forLeonard, Lochrie and campbell.
go back to your wee rat-friends to get all the info again, this time try to get correct factual information,
not the 'makey-uppie' stuff that unionsts/loyalists were guilty of in the 'bad old days' (pre-GFA).
could you not just admit you are wrong and guilty of lying rather than trying to peddle bigger lies?
Do you need a hand moving those goalposts or are you alright?
You make up something that I never said and then ask me a question about it. Even though I never said it in the first place, I still answer your question and you now decide that I'm lying even though you 'can't speak for' the grounds in question.
I have not lied, stalled, twisited or anything else, I've answered your question. The fact that you don't like the answer isn't my problem and certainly doesn't make me a liar.
you are trying to twist it - not me.
if this wasnt what you were saying, then you could have 'corrected' this in an initial response to me.
I however, asked you a question, to which you 'replied' - so its not my problem or fault if you backtrack.
However, you have named 'Kevin Lynch Park' as being one of the grounds you mention
does this not smack of you being a bit szicho?
One minute you say you are not talking about grounds - the next you are writing out the list of grounds you construe to be dedicated to 'sectarian murderers'.
I thank you for answering the question ( ::)) and while I cannot answer for two of the grounds, I can safely say you are lying through your teeth on the Dungiven one.
you prob know this already, but it doesnt seem to stop you.
Unionists/loyalists like yourself will never allow yourselves to grasp any kind of rationale regarding convergence and peace.....its still 'peace' but on your terms, which is not going to cut the mustard for too much longer.
Luckily you and your ilk are a dying breed (think you are all jumping off the sinking ship and away to england! ;))
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:55:24 PMHowever, you have named 'Kevin Lynch Park' as being one of the grounds you mention
does this not smack of you being a bit szicho?
One minute you say you are not talking about grounds - the next you are writing out the list of grounds you construe to be dedicated to 'sectarian murderers'.
That was an answer to a totally different question. Try and keep up.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:55:24 PM
I thank you for answering the question ( ::)) and while I cannot answer for two of the grounds, I can safely say you are lying through your teeth on the Dungiven one.
you prob know this already, but it doesnt seem to stop you.
Which bit is a lie? Is the ground named after a different Kevin Lynch?
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:55:24 PMHowever, you have named 'Kevin Lynch Park' as being one of the grounds you mention
does this not smack of you being a bit szicho?
One minute you say you are not talking about grounds - the next you are writing out the list of grounds you construe to be dedicated to 'sectarian murderers'.
That was an answer to a totally different question. Try and keep up.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:55:24 PM
I thank you for answering the question ( ::)) and while I cannot answer for two of the grounds, I can safely say you are lying through your teeth on the Dungiven one.
you prob know this already, but it doesnt seem to stop you.
Which bit is a lie? Is the ground named after a different Kevin Lynch?
The ground is not named after Kevin Lynch at all the ground is called O'Cahan Park!
Quote from: screenexile on April 22, 2008, 04:21:13 PM
The ground is not named after Kevin Lynch at all the ground is called O'Cahan Park!
You might want to have a wee word with the Derry GAA. They seem to think it's called Kevin Lynch Park. http://www.derrygaa.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=577&Itemid=70 (http://www.derrygaa.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=577&Itemid=70)
I stand corrected as I wasn't around when Kevin Lynch Park was unveiled. Apologies sammy.
Quote from: screenexile on April 22, 2008, 04:46:57 PM
I stand corrected as I wasn't around when Kevin Lynch Park was unveiled. Apologies sammy.
No problem
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:55:24 PMHowever, you have named 'Kevin Lynch Park' as being one of the grounds you mention
does this not smack of you being a bit szicho?
One minute you say you are not talking about grounds - the next you are writing out the list of grounds you construe to be dedicated to 'sectarian murderers'.
That was an answer to a totally different question. Try and keep up.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:55:24 PM
I thank you for answering the question ( ::)) and while I cannot answer for two of the grounds, I can safely say you are lying through your teeth on the Dungiven one.
you prob know this already, but it doesnt seem to stop you.
Which bit is a lie? Is the ground named after a different Kevin Lynch?
so you are saying that Kevin Lynch park is named after a 'sectarian murderer' then?
as I posed the question, I surely know what ws asked, you had not answered this.
typical unionist/loyalist twisting.
For the folks reading this, I apologise for continuing on this and having to highlight the type of person that some folk think the GAA should pander to - but this is an example of the disengenuous unionist/loyalist and their desire to twist things and not answe the question directly asked.
::)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 05:06:29 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:55:24 PMHowever, you have named 'Kevin Lynch Park' as being one of the grounds you mention
does this not smack of you being a bit szicho?
One minute you say you are not talking about grounds - the next you are writing out the list of grounds you construe to be dedicated to 'sectarian murderers'.
That was an answer to a totally different question. Try and keep up.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:55:24 PM
I thank you for answering the question ( ::)) and while I cannot answer for two of the grounds, I can safely say you are lying through your teeth on the Dungiven one.
you prob know this already, but it doesnt seem to stop you.
Which bit is a lie? Is the ground named after a different Kevin Lynch?
so you are saying that Kevin Lynch park is named after a 'sectarian murderer' then?
as I posed the question, I surely know what ws asked, you had not answered this.
typical unionist/loyalist twisting
For the folks reading this, I apologise for continuing on this and having to highlight the type of person that some folk think the GAA should pander to - but this is an example of the disengenuous unionist/loyalist and their desire to twist things and not answe the question directly asked.
::)
What am I twisting? You asked a question and I answered you.
Lynchboy,
He knows he is wrong, he does this on purpose just to wind people up.
A real hero of the OWC coming over here are giving us what for and all ;)
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 05:11:38 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 05:06:29 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 04:01:15 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:55:24 PMHowever, you have named 'Kevin Lynch Park' as being one of the grounds you mention
does this not smack of you being a bit szicho?
One minute you say you are not talking about grounds - the next you are writing out the list of grounds you construe to be dedicated to 'sectarian murderers'.
That was an answer to a totally different question. Try and keep up.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 03:55:24 PM
I thank you for answering the question ( ::)) and while I cannot answer for two of the grounds, I can safely say you are lying through your teeth on the Dungiven one.
you prob know this already, but it doesnt seem to stop you.
Which bit is a lie? Is the ground named after a different Kevin Lynch?
so you are saying that Kevin Lynch park is named after a 'sectarian murderer' then?
as I posed the question, I surely know what ws asked, you had not answered this.
typical unionist/loyalist twisting
For the folks reading this, I apologise for continuing on this and having to highlight the type of person that some folk think the GAA should pander to - but this is an example of the disengenuous unionist/loyalist and their desire to twist things and not answe the question directly asked.
::)
What am I twisting? You asked a question and I answered you.
pants on fire ....as per usual
will ask slowly as you are obv a bit 'cranially challenged'
"you are saying that Kevin Lynch park is named after a 'sectarian murderer' then?"
if so , please use examples where Lynch was shown to be guilty of such a thing? :D
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 22, 2008, 05:21:15 PM
Lynchboy,
He knows he is wrong, he does this on purpose just to wind people up.
A real hero of the OWC coming over here are giving us what for and all ;)
I know - but I like to see how he continues to lie through his buck teeth and wont admit he is wrong, in the typical never never never loyalist/unionist manner ::)
he is demonstrating to the 'mexicans' and others who may not have had any dealings with the two faced-ness of unionists/loyalists and unionism/loyalism - what they are really like
proving my point for me really. ;) :D
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 22, 2008, 05:21:15 PM
Lynchboy,
He knows he is wrong, he does this on purpose just to wind people up.
How am I wrong? The only person that's on a wind-up is LynchBhoy, who's moved the goalposts so many times that he's not even sure what he's asking.
Gaelic football and hurling. Lynch was a member of the winning Dungiven team which won the Feile na nGael in Thurles, County Tipperary in 1971 and in 1972 he captained the County Derry Hurling team to an Under-16 All-Ireland title at Croke Park, Dublin by beating County Armagh.[2]
[edit] INLA career
He was tried, convicted and sentenced to ten years for stealing shotguns, taking part in a punishment shooting and conspiring to take arms from the security forces and sent to the Maze Prison for ten years in December 1977. He got involved in the blanket protest and joined the 1981 Irish Hunger Strike on May 23, 1981 and died 71 days later.
[edit] References from wikipedia
Now no one certainly not me sammy is arguing that Lynch had republican links but where in this does it say he was a sectarian murderer?? It does however provide details of his links with the GAA and in particular the club Dungiven. As i have said before the ground wasn't named after him for his exploits into repubicanism but because he was a member of the club (Dungiven) and he contriubuted to the identity of Nationalist ie the hunger strikes (votes and other issues for the nationalsit community). But the name was not in honour of his links to the IRA or INLA. This may seem hard for you to understand sammy because you are a little ignorant to it probably because you are not a member of the GAA but as a member i can never remember sectarianism being the motivation behind any name of trophy ground or anything else for that matter. The majority of the GAA members wouldn't allow sectrianism to infiltrate the GAA because it was always separate from the political environment at the time. It was loyalist death squads that tried to make the GAA political and police brutality (stopping games being played because they would refuse t let players through) I recall going to many an under age games with my father and being taking out of the bus and searched with nothing on me only my skip and boots. Despite this i never wanted the GAA to become political as i was happy with the organisation the way it was. I can have strong republican views or strong Islamic views and be a member of the GAA but this has nothing to do with the GAA and certainly doesn't make the GAA terrorists or murderers. It remains a separate identity and is only confused by ignorant people who cannot see past the end of their own noses, people who look for excuses not to move forward. The GAA is mainly vetoed by southern delegates who hold the majority because of numbers, would you be saying that all these southern delegates who voted to remove rule 42 and 21 would be sectarian murderers or sympathisers to sectarian murderers. Come on sammy wind it in and catch a grip.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 05:35:23 PM
"you are saying that Kevin Lynch park is named after a 'sectarian murderer' then?"
For the umpteenth time, yes Kevin Lynch was a sectarian murderer.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 22, 2008, 05:59:11 PMNow no one certainly not me sammy is arguing that Lynch had republican links but where in this does it say he was a sectarian murderer?? It does however provide details of his links with the GAA and in particular the club Dungiven. As i have said before the ground wasn't named after him for his exploits into repubicanism but because he was a member of the club (Dungiven) and he contriubuted to the identity of Nationalist ie the hunger strikes (votes and other issues for the nationalsit community). But the name was not in honour of his links to the IRA or INLA. This may seem hard for you to understand sammy because you are a little ignorant to it probably because you are not a member of the GAA but as a member i can never remember sectarianism being the motivation behind any name of trophy ground or anything else for that matter.
So somebody that was a non-playing reserve is deserving of having a ground named after him??? Aye right enough. ::)
Is naming a ground/club after GAA stalwart Fergal O'Hanlon okay?
or is he regarded as one of those so called "sectarian killers?
Or is there a timeline? a sort of a Unionist amnesty for using names of so called "sectarian killers" active before 1960.
Where are the guidelines on this? Who makes the guidelines?
I don't think most Unionists give a second thought after their first impression that the GAA is a hateful bunch of bigots out to rob them of their identity.
Apart from the suggested change in the first post other changes are down to local clubs in their own area.
SammyG, you'd be better off just holding your hands up on this one.
He wasn't a convicted sectarian murderer, but he was an active republican paramilitary, which is just as bad in the eyes of a Unionist. Which is surely a perfectly understandable viewpoint from a Unionist perspective, no?
Is the above what the last 3 pages boil down to?
To Sammy if you were ever an IRA member you are a sectarian murderer. Whether on not you have ever murdered anyone.
Hope this clarifies.
Regarding the lies Sammy, will you admit you have been caught telling lies on more than one previous occasion?
A yes or no answer will do fine.
And dont ask me for examples, I dont need convincing, I just want to see how honest you are.
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 22, 2008, 06:43:57 PM
To Sammy if you were ever an IRA member you are a sectarian murderer. Whether on not you have ever murdered anyone.
Hope this clarifies.
If you voluntarily join a gang of sectarian murderers and go on 'active service', with them, then you are a sectarian murderer.
p.s. Lynch was INLA not IRA.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 22, 2008, 06:17:09 PM
SammyG, you'd be better off just holding your hands up on this one.
He wasn't a convicted sectarian murderer,
And Al Capone was never convicted of being a gangster. The INLA, of which Lynch was a senior member, were a sectarian murder gang. Even the Provos thought they were too extreme.
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 06:01:42 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 05:35:23 PM
"you are saying that Kevin Lynch park is named after a 'sectarian murderer' then?"
For the umpteenth time, yes Kevin Lynch was a sectarian murderer.
at long last we have it. you finally ar put into a corner and have to admit this is what you 'think.
for all your 'thoughts' the fact remains that Lynch was not a murderer.
It matters what you 'think' and your ascertions upon him being in the IRA or INLA.
why couldnt you just admit you were wrong all along?
Well the answer is obvious really - you have demonstrated to all on here the levels and absolute lies that loyalists/unionists will go to imply, hint and and then barefacedly pronounce to people.
its no wonder no one believes you and your ilk when you bleat about soccer and the peril that northern east ulster soccer team ( (C) T.Fearon) are always in.
Thanks for proving my case for me.
Pity you couldnt have returned the decent gesture with a straight and immediate answer that I gave you when you were looking for info on fixing the problem you had with a fecked up laptop - but not everyon has decency and manners. Luckily enough that kn**ker element have fled the country and are emigrating en masse to england (God help the poor english - they will be told that 'anglo-skats' is an ancient cultural 'language' before too long :D)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 08:09:32 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 06:01:42 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 22, 2008, 05:35:23 PM
"you are saying that Kevin Lynch park is named after a 'sectarian murderer' then?"
For the umpteenth time, yes Kevin Lynch was a sectarian murderer.
at long last we have it. you finally ar put into a corner and have to admit this is what you 'think.
for all your 'thoughts' the fact remains that Lynch was not a murderer.
It matters what you 'think' and your ascertions upon him being in the IRA or INLA.
why couldnt you just admit you were wrong all along?
WTF are you on about I answered your questions several times, you then asked a different one and I answered that, you then asked a different one and I answered that. Not once did I duck or stall, I answered all your questions. The fact that you can't face up to the fact that you glorifyy sectarian murder isn't my problem. Which bit of what I said is wrong?
Lynch boy you are starting to confuse this thread with personal attacks on people. If sammy has a relevant point then let him air it without constantly bringing up the one point about admitting right or wrong. After all it ain't about who is right or wrong it is about trying to solve the issue.
Sammy you are still failing to realise that the GAA is non poiltical. You are looking at it from an outsider and therefore cannot possibly fanthom the ins and outs of the organisation. Do you think that with the current political environment and the eagerness of the media to jump on the backs of the GAA that the GAA would deliberately and willingly name grounds or anything else on terrorists alone??? The grounds have been so named because these people were special to a particular club or in some cases the identity of a particular area and NOT ON ANY BIGOTTED MOTIVE. They simply would never get away with it. I am not for glorifying terrorists and i know the GAA do not partake in this type of behaviour. It is against the rules in the GAA to become a political. a good example at the minute is the erction of a republican mural at eire ogs land in craigavon. There have been many objections to this by the members and it has split the club down the middle. I now think some form of action is going to be taken so if what you are saying is true then there wuld be no case. It doesn't go on sammy because there would always be people like you waiting in the winds for the opportunity to sink them. It is a facade made up by people who are pretending to take an interest in an age old organisation when they have clearly no love for it or respect for the reasons it was formed.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 22, 2008, 10:01:17 PM
It doesn't go on sammy because there would always be people like you waiting in the winds for the opportunity to sink them. It is a facade made up by people who are pretending to take an interest in an age old organisation when they have clearly no love for it or respect for the reasons it was formed.
Whatever 'doesn't go on', shouldn't go on, because it's not right that it should go on in the first place. Not because of what someone else thinks. Whatever it is that doesn't go on, that is. :P :D
Quote from: hardstation on April 22, 2008, 10:25:18 PM
f**k it, Sammy. To hell with the politics and all, if I get you Jody Gormley's number, could you round up 15 of your mates to go out and play for Antrim in the championship? Yis have a month to get into shape. Yis play Cavan first........Good Luck!
I think Hardstation that you'll find that Sammy's mates are practising their wee walks at this time of year and therefore won't be available !! :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Maguire your a melter even in the wee hours of the morning :D :D ;)
Quote from: orangeman on April 23, 2008, 12:04:42 AM
Quote from: hardstation on April 22, 2008, 10:25:18 PM
f**k it, Sammy. To hell with the politics and all, if I get you Jody Gormley's number, could you round up 15 of your mates to go out and play for Antrim in the championship? Yis have a month to get into shape. Yis play Cavan first........Good Luck!
I think Hardstation that you'll find that Sammy's mates are practising their wee walks at this time of year and therefore won't be available !! :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Indeed, must be near time for them to take the annual spring/summer vow of silence (well to their cafflik neighbours anyway)
Grunting season i call it
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:38:17 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 22, 2008, 02:31:44 PM
Sammy a piece of paper is not the be all or end of for a nationality. In fact it is pretty insignificant. Go and look up the meaning of nationality, i would doubt you will find the issue of a passport at the forefront.
I didn't say that a passport was the be all and end all of nationality. A passport is just the bit of paper that demonstrates your nationality, obviously there is a lot more behind it than just the bit of paper.
You did say you would not believe someone could be a Scottish National until you seen a Scottish Passport. So is it a case of "
obviously there is a lot more behind it than just the bit of paper" unless you are Scottish where it does take a bit of peper ::)
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 07:21:31 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 22, 2008, 06:17:09 PM
SammyG, you'd be better off just holding your hands up on this one.
He wasn't a convicted sectarian murderer,
And Al Capone was never convicted of being a gangster. The INLA, of which Lynch was a senior member, were a sectarian murder gang. Even the Provos thought they were too extreme.
Does the same apply to anyone who voluntarily joins the British Government? They have carried out plenty of murders. As seen in Iraq the British are too extreme. I don't think it does but maybe you do.
[quote author=Zapatista link=topic=7345.msg280972#msg280972 date=1208932918You did say you would not believe someone could be a Scottish National until you seen a Scottish Passport. So is it a case of "obviously there is a lot more behind it than just the bit of paper" unless you are Scottish where it does take a bit of peper ::)
[/quote]
I'm not sure if you're trying to be awkward or if you're not getting what I'm saying. Of course you can be Scottish but there is no such thing as Scottish nationality. The 'bit of paper' is just the demonstration of the nationality, not the nationality in itself.
Quote from: SammyG on April 23, 2008, 08:36:31 AM
[quote author=Zapatista link=topic=7345.msg280972#msg280972 date=1208932918You did say you would not believe someone could be a Scottish National until you seen a Scottish Passport. So is it a case of "obviously there is a lot more behind it than just the bit of paper" unless you are Scottish where it does take a bit of peper ::)
I'm not sure if you're trying to be awkward or if you're not getting what I'm saying. Of course you can be Scottish but there is no such thing as Scottish nationality. The 'bit of paper' is just the demonstration of the nationality, not the nationality in itself.
[/quote]
Where are Scottish people from then? Are they from County Scotland or Scotland City? Scotland is a Nation whether you like it or not. Scottish people are Scottish Nationals wether you like it or not. Scotland is a Nation in a Union with England, Wales and NI which are all Nations in their own right. The same as there are 27 Nations in the EU all of which are Nations in their own right. It just so happens that the Union of Britain share the same passport and currency. This may happen to the EU too but it in no way means you cease to become a Nation.
This just had me wondering, why was our club in Coventry named after Roger Casement. He had no connection to Coventry as far as Im aware. Why wasnt the club named after Francis Whittle, he was born and grew up in the same area of Coventry that our team is from in Earlsdon,
he invented the Jet engine and the American football team are called the Jets after him, wouldnt it make sense to name clubs after people that the area is noted for. Roger Casement doesnt mean a whole lot to anyone from Coventry let alone Earlsdon.
After we got a very generous grants from the local council the local papers were asking why was the club named after a man who got hung for treason. It just makes it makes it harder for the locals to identify with our club therefore harder to recruit and get locals interested in going to our matches.
I'm not sure if he has a history with Coventry but he has a huge and great history in the British Army. He served in the British army (for the British people) in South America and Africa. He was highly decorated for the work he done in Africa and South America in the interest of Human Rights of the natives there in the name of He Majesty. He was hung for doing the same work in Ireland. The people of Coventry should be happy with the great Humanitarian work Casement done for everyone regardless of colour or creed. If the Club was named after Martin Luther King there would be no objection and so there should be none for Casement.
Yeah but wouldnt choosing someone local not be better,
Steve Orgizovic??
Lady Godiva?
Quote from: thejuice on April 23, 2008, 11:29:12 AM
Yeah but wouldnt choosing someone local not be better,
Not necessarily. I'm sure it was started by an ethnic group in Coventry rather than local majority. An example would be Glasgow Celtic started by an ethnic group in memory of their own ethnic history. It is harmless really. In fact Casement and Celtic are good non controversial choices.
Quote from: maddog on April 23, 2008, 12:13:09 PM
Lady Godiva?
Well there are plenty of pubs and beers and streets named after her and we could have a lady in the nip as our crest.
We could also be called The Specials GAA club, our club song could be Ghost Town, which as you may remember from an episode of Father Ted is the Irish National Anthem.
But seriously........
yes this was obviously chosen by those who started the club 1956 and what connection they felt with Roger Casement is up to them but today it just seems out of place. It is harmless of course but in order to establish gaelic games in Britain I think the teams need to identify with their locality
Juice true Irishmen and women travelling over to Britain to play our games will have no problems with such names. In fact it allows them the opportunity to stay within their own culture and small community in a foreign country. That was probably the purpose of the name. Like in all honesty how could you name a club team within an organisation after someone in Britain. It makes no sense, the names are to promote irish identity. I would also say that many British people looking to play gaelic games would have no objections to the names because they realise it is an Irish sport founded to promote Culture. Again i would say the media would latch onto this because this is their job but ordinary people would have better things to get on with. Isee it never made national news anyway like the issue with Unionists here.
Quote from: SammyG on April 23, 2008, 08:36:31 AM
Of course you can be Scottish but there is no such thing as Scottish nationality.
I'm confused by this. Do Scotland not play rugby in the 6
Nations?
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
Whats this about?
Quote from: Malone Aristocrat on April 23, 2008, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
Whats this about?
It's about Sammy G being a bigot ! That's what !
Please please please, dont stereotype Sammy G.
I wouldnt worry about it, he thinks we are all racists.
Quote from: feetofflames on April 23, 2008, 01:34:31 PM
Please please please, dont stereotype Sammy G.
If I said your where non sterotypical FoF would that be sterotyping you ;) :D ;)?
Now I'm confused Maguire.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 23, 2008, 01:03:08 PM
Juice true Irishmen and women travelling over to Britain to play our games will have no problems with such names. In fact it allows them the opportunity to stay within their own culture and small community in a foreign country. That was probably the purpose of the name. Like in all honesty how could you name a club team within an organisation after someone in Britain. It makes no sense, the names are to promote irish identity. I would also say that many British people looking to play gaelic games would have no objections to the names because they realise it is an Irish sport founded to promote Culture. Again i would say the media would latch onto this because this is their job but ordinary people would have better things to get on with. Isee it never made national news anyway like the issue with Unionists here.
Well I didnt think Irish people would be too concerned by the names, but isnt the fact that playing an Irish sport is promoting Irish culture as it is. Wouldnt Earlsdon GAA club have been enough. Creating a team that both immigrants and natives alike can identify with would have been a better objective if you ask me.
Quote from: thejuice on April 23, 2008, 12:25:03 PM
Quote from: maddog on April 23, 2008, 12:13:09 PM
Lady Godiva?
Well there are plenty of pubs and beers and streets named after her and we could have a lady in the nip as our crest.
We could also be called The Specials GAA club, our club song could be Ghost Town, which as you may remember from an episode of Father Ted is the Irish National Anthem.
But seriously........
yes this was obviously chosen by those who started the club 1956 and what connection they felt with Roger Casement is up to them but today it just seems out of place. It is harmless of course but in order to establish gaelic games in Britain I think the teams need to identify with their locality
Never liked the Casements, was the colours put me off. ;) Preferred Finbarrs.
Quote from: maddog on April 23, 2008, 02:44:42 PM
Never liked the Casements, was the colours put me off. ;) Preferred Finbarrs.
Not to keen on the Down colours myself but anyway, whats happened to Finbars lately, I hear they are struggling to field a team, or is that just Casements propaganda.
Quote from: Malone Aristocrat on April 23, 2008, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
Whats this about?
It's not about anything. It was an answer to Lynchbhoys question, about which grounds were named after murderers.
Quote from: orangeman on April 23, 2008, 01:33:03 PM
Quote from: Malone Aristocrat on April 23, 2008, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
Whats this about?
It's about Sammy G being a bigot ! That's what !
Which bit of my post had anything to do with bigottry?
were Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell murderers?
Quote from: SammyG on April 23, 2008, 02:57:38 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 23, 2008, 01:33:03 PM
Quote from: Malone Aristocrat on April 23, 2008, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
Whats this about?
It's about Sammy G being a bigot ! That's what !
Which bit of my post had anything to do with bigottry?
All of it !!!!!! It came from you didn't it ?
Quote from: orangeman on April 23, 2008, 03:04:15 PMAll of it !!!!!! It came from you didn't it ?
And the award for the greatest post in GAABoard history goes to orangeman. ::)
Quote from: Zapatista on April 23, 2008, 07:54:29 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 07:21:31 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 22, 2008, 06:17:09 PM
SammyG, you'd be better off just holding your hands up on this one.
He wasn't a convicted sectarian murderer,
And Al Capone was never convicted of being a gangster. The INLA, of which Lynch was a senior member, were a sectarian murder gang. Even the Provos thought they were too extreme.
Does the same apply to anyone who voluntarily joins the British Government? They have carried out plenty of murders. As seen in Iraq the British are too extreme. I don't think it does but maybe you do.
Can you answer this Sammy?
Quote from: Zapatista on April 23, 2008, 03:14:08 PMCan you answer this Sammy?
Sorry missed this earlier.
If they were involved in voting for and/or organising the war then yes. I have said for a long while that Bush and Blair should be tried for war crimes.
Not that being a member, of a legally elected government, is in any comparable to being a member of a squad of sectarian gangsters.
Quote from: SammyG on April 23, 2008, 03:07:56 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 23, 2008, 03:04:15 PMAll of it !!!!!! It came from you didn't it ?
And the award for the greatest post in GAABoard history goes to orangeman. ::)
You haven't denied it Sammy !
Lads i think he has tied himself in knots with the scottish nationality one, his logic is just daft.
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 23, 2008, 03:53:28 PM
Lads i think he has tied himself in knots with the scottish nationality one, his logic is just daft.
In what way?
Have you got an hour sammy?
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 23, 2008, 04:30:44 PM
Have you got an hour sammy?
I've got ages, I'm dialled in a for a (very boring) telephone briefing and interwebbing at the same time. ;)
Quote from: SammyG on April 23, 2008, 04:34:32 PM
Quote from: winsamsoon on April 23, 2008, 04:30:44 PM
Have you got an hour sammy?
I've got ages, I'm dialled in a for a (very boring) telephone briefing and interwebbing at the same time. ;)
Can you take your bigot's hat off whilst your doing this ?
Have you taken that hat off yet ?????
Quote from: orangeman on April 23, 2008, 04:46:39 PM
Have you taken that hat off yet ?????
WTF are you on about?
Its stitched to his head.
Quote from: SammyG on April 23, 2008, 03:17:14 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 23, 2008, 03:14:08 PMCan you answer this Sammy?
Sorry missed this earlier.
If they were involved in voting for and/or organising the war then yes. I have said for a long while that Bush and Blair should be tried for war crimes.
Not that being a member, of a legally elected government, is in any comparable to being a member of a squad of sectarian gangsters.
If there was a Mo Mowlan park opened would you be as disgusted?
Quote from: Zapatista on April 24, 2008, 05:22:46 AMIf there was a Mo Mowlan park opened would you be as disgusted?
Not sure about disgusted but I'd certainly wonder why the name had been chosen.
Quote from: SammyG on April 24, 2008, 10:21:39 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 24, 2008, 05:22:46 AMIf there was a Mo Mowlan park opened would you be as disgusted?
Not sure about disgusted but I'd certainly wonder why the name had been chosen.
See - you're still not happy ! Still suspicious ! How sad is that ?
Quote from: orangeman on April 24, 2008, 10:23:08 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 24, 2008, 10:21:39 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 24, 2008, 05:22:46 AMIf there was a Mo Mowlan park opened would you be as disgusted?
Not sure about disgusted but I'd certainly wonder why the name had been chosen.
See - you're still not happy ! Still suspicious ! How sad is that ?
WTF are you on about? Suspicious of what? Not happy with what?
Quote from: SammyG on April 24, 2008, 10:40:57 AM
Quote from: orangeman on April 24, 2008, 10:23:08 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 24, 2008, 10:21:39 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 24, 2008, 05:22:46 AMIf there was a Mo Mowlan park opened would you be as disgusted?
Not sure about disgusted but I'd certainly wonder why the name had been chosen.
See - you're still not happy ! Still suspicious ! How sad is that ?
WTF are you on about? Suspicious of what? Not happy with what?
You're paranoid now Sammy !
Quote from: Malone Aristocrat on April 23, 2008, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
Whats this about?
My question was who are Lochrie and campbell who their pitch is named after and why?
Quote from: Malone Aristocrat on April 24, 2008, 11:12:10 AM
Quote from: Malone Aristocrat on April 23, 2008, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
Whats this about?
My question was who are Lochrie and campbell who their pitch is named after and why?
They were 2 prominent Irishmen and GAA supporters in that area.
Its more accurate just to say they were irishmen.
Quote from: Aghdavoyle on April 24, 2008, 11:39:27 AM
Its more accurate just to say they were irishmen.
ok - fair enough.
Quote from: Malone Aristocrat on April 24, 2008, 11:12:10 AM
Quote from: Malone Aristocrat on April 23, 2008, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 22, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
Dromintee's ground in Armagh named after Jim Lochrie and Sean Campbell
Whats this about?
My question was who are Lochrie and campbell who their pitch is named after and why?
Jim Lochrie was an IRA 'volunteer' from Dromintree
Sean Campbell was an IRA 'volunteer' from Louth
As far as why the pitch was named after them, it certainly wasn't due to their work for the club so presumably it was because of their 'work' for the cause.
Presumably indeed
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 24, 2008, 01:11:58 PM
Presumably indeed
Presumably because I wasn't in the room when the decision was made but looking at the facts, I'm not sure you could draw any other conclusion. Campbell's only connection to Armagh was he murdered people there.
wtf are you on about?
Actually sammy part of the Dromintee diocese is in louth believe it or not so maybe you are correct when you say about his connections with Armagh (Not the bit about murdering) but he was then connected to Dromintee because it was in his diocese.
Quote from: SammyG on April 24, 2008, 01:33:01 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 24, 2008, 01:11:58 PM
Presumably indeed
Presumably because I wasn't in the room when the decision was made but looking at the facts, I'm not sure you could draw any other conclusion. Campbell's only connection to Armagh was he murdered people there.
It's very difficult to presume - but since you know so much is it safe to presume that you know everything ??
Quote from: thejuice on April 01, 2008, 05:32:52 PM
Well the club I play for is Roger Casements, and to be honest if it were asked that we changed the name to something else I wouldn't mind at all. I love Gaelic games and but don't really see the point or even the good it does naming clubs after people with contentious backgrounds.
I would object to any hint of the removal of the Irish language however
I havent read through all of this debate but on looking at thie first page I came across the above quote.
It strikes me as typical of the attitude in the free state that there would be an objection to "any hint of the removal of the Irish language" yet the same person states they would have no objection to the name of the great Roger Casement being disassociated with his/her local club. Why be offended at the prospect of removal of the Irish Langauge, an aspect of Irish culture, yet not be offended at the possibility of removal of the name of a patriot who actually died in defence of Ireland and by extension, for Irish culture. It screams hypocracy. The attitude of many in the 26 counties, to have no gratitude for the sacrafices made by patriots like Roger Casement, absolutely stinks.
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 25, 2008, 01:05:07 AM
Quote from: thejuice on April 01, 2008, 05:32:52 PM
Well the club I play for is Roger Casements, and to be honest if it were asked that we changed the name to something else I wouldn't mind at all. I love Gaelic games and but don't really see the point or even the good it does naming clubs after people with contentious backgrounds.
I would object to any hint of the removal of the Irish language however
I havent read through all of this debate but on looking at thie first page I came across the above quote.
It strikes me as typical of the attitude in the free state that there would be an objection to "any hint of the removal of the Irish language" yet the same person states they would have no objection to the name of the great Roger Casement being disassociated with his/her local club. Why be offended at the prospect of removal of the Irish Langauge, an aspect of Irish culture, yet not be offended at the possibility of removal of the name of a patriot who actually died in defence of Ireland and by extension, for Irish culture. It screams hypocracy. The attitude of many in the 26 counties, to have no gratitude for the sacrafices made by patriots like Roger Casement, absolutely stinks.
Rodger Casement was also a huge Irish Language enthusiast. He was one of the founders of the gealic league which had a top priority of promoting the Irish Language. He did more for the Irish Language in his short life than the consecutive Irish Governments since. His devotion to the language was only matched by the likes of PH Pearse. Juice, If you look at the life of Rodger Casement you might not be so quick to change the name as he was a remarkable man. I am not atacking you here as I know very little about St Dympna who my club is named after. I must find out more about her actually.
Quote from: Zapatista on April 25, 2008, 07:49:38 AM
I am not atacking you here as I know very little about St Dympna who my club is named after. I must find out more about her actually.
She was a bad one. Killed hundreds. Around Armagh. That's why your club is named after her. Possibly. :P
As for thejuice's Casement argument, i assume he was only trying to draw a distinction between the purely cultural (i.e. the language) and the political.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 25, 2008, 11:04:52 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 25, 2008, 07:49:38 AM
I am not atacking you here as I know very little about St Dympna who my club is named after. I must find out more about her actually.
She was a bad one. Killed hundreds. Around Armagh. That's why your club is named after her. Possibly. :P
As for thejuice's Casement argument, i assume he was only trying to draw a distinction between the purely cultural (i.e. the language) and the political.
:D :D :D
Probably.
Quote from: Zapatista on April 25, 2008, 07:49:38 AM
Rodger Casement was also a huge Irish Language enthusiast. He was one of the founders of the gealic league which had a top priority of promoting the Irish Language. He did more for the Irish Language in his short life than the consecutive Irish Governments since. His devotion to the language was only matched by the likes of PH Pearse. Juice, If you look at the life of Rodger Casement you might not be so quick to change the name as he was a remarkable man. I am not atacking you here as I know very little about St Dympna who my club is named after. I must find out more about her actually.
I never said he was a bad person nor would I have a problem with his involvement in the war of independence. Its not his character or history I or anyone has a problem with its his relevence to Coventry, (the papers didnt complain they were more curious). I just find it strange naming teams after people which have very little if nothing in common with their location, therefore have little for locals to indentify with. Now had Roger Casement been born in Coventry, or lived here or had some attachment to the area it would make sense. Thats all I'm getting at.
Yes Juice i acknowledge what you are saying but what i am saying is that the name must always be distinguished with GAA circles . With all due respect there would be no people from Coventry( apart from the people playing football ot other sports) that would warrant naming a club or anything else after. This is slightly different anyway from the debate at hand. Unfortunetly the dreaded politics is trying to muscle in on it over here.
Quote from: thejuice on April 25, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 25, 2008, 07:49:38 AM
Rodger Casement was also a huge Irish Language enthusiast. He was one of the founders of the gealic league which had a top priority of promoting the Irish Language. He did more for the Irish Language in his short life than the consecutive Irish Governments since. His devotion to the language was only matched by the likes of PH Pearse. Juice, If you look at the life of Rodger Casement you might not be so quick to change the name as he was a remarkable man. I am not atacking you here as I know very little about St Dympna who my club is named after. I must find out more about her actually.
I never said he was a bad person nor would I have a problem with his involvement in the war of independence. Its not his character or history I or anyone has a problem with its his relevence to Coventry, (the papers didnt complain they were more curious). I just find it strange naming teams after people which have very little if nothing in common with their location, therefore have little for locals to indentify with. Now had Roger Casement been born in Coventry, or lived here or had some attachment to the area it would make sense. Thats all I'm getting at.
He might have a connection though. I agree if there is no connection, but then perhaps there is another valid reason which might be worth finding out. If you say there is no valid/worthwhile reason then thats fine with me and would have no problem with a name change.
He was dead before the War of Independence started.
Quote from: Zapatista on April 25, 2008, 11:35:22 AM
Quote from: thejuice on April 25, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on April 25, 2008, 07:49:38 AM
Rodger Casement was also a huge Irish Language enthusiast. He was one of the founders of the gealic league which had a top priority of promoting the Irish Language. He did more for the Irish Language in his short life than the consecutive Irish Governments since. His devotion to the language was only matched by the likes of PH Pearse. Juice, If you look at the life of Rodger Casement you might not be so quick to change the name as he was a remarkable man. I am not atacking you here as I know very little about St Dympna who my club is named after. I must find out more about her actually.
I never said he was a bad person nor would I have a problem with his involvement in the war of independence. Its not his character or history I or anyone has a problem with its his relevence to Coventry, (the papers didnt complain they were more curious). I just find it strange naming teams after people which have very little if nothing in common with their location, therefore have little for locals to indentify with. Now had Roger Casement been born in Coventry, or lived here or had some attachment to the area it would make sense. Thats all I'm getting at.
He might have a connection though. I agree if there is no connection, but then perhaps there is another valid reason which might be worth finding out. If you say there is no valid/worthwhile reason then thats fine with me and would have no problem with a name change.
He was dead before the War of Independence started.
Well officialy started anyway,
but anyway chances are changing the names wont matter a shite really over here, still worth arguement (like how'd you like you eggs done).
As nally Stand was saying about my free-stater attitude, I dont think that changing a clubs name removes anyone from the history books, the fighting still happened, people who fought and died wont dissappear from our heritage, and I have always had a keen interest in Irish history but a keener interest in our future and just thought perhaps sacrificing a few club names, for the sake of social inclusion was a worthy and noble cause but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. As you know theres 2 approaches to social tolerance, remove whats considered offensive or try and get the other side to tolerate they may find offensive. Its your choice.
Anyway, you never figured out why I really dont like the name Roger Casement, its cos he was queer.....................and I hate queers ;) :P ;) :P ;) :P ;) :P
Yeah, but back to St Dympna. Deeply offensive to be namming a club after her. Did Dympna ever play the Gaaaaaaaaaaah? I'm tellin' ya, it's just because she was a Catholic.
:P
Are you sure he was Gay? I didn't know that :o Not that it matters.
Aparrently Dympna didn't like little puppys :-[ but it was her dislike for fish and chips served in a newspaper and all things British which made the club choose her as their saint.
Is Sammy gone for surgery yet ? ;) :D ;D
Didn't know the name of dromintee's pitch so did a bit of enquiring last night. apparently "Lochrie/Campbell Memorial Park" is a very touchy subject in that part of the world and not a consensus name.
Quote from: Uladh on April 26, 2008, 12:53:30 PM
Didn't know the name of dromintee's pitch so did a bit of enquiring last night. apparently "Lochrie/Campbell Memorial Park" is a very touchy subject in that part of the world and not a consensus name.
Sammy will ove to hear that !
Quote from: orangeman on April 26, 2008, 01:02:18 PM
Quote from: Uladh on April 26, 2008, 12:53:30 PM
Didn't know the name of dromintee's pitch so did a bit of enquiring last night. apparently "Lochrie/Campbell Memorial Park" is a very touchy subject in that part of the world and not a consensus name.
Sammy will ove to hear that !
I wouldn't be so sure OM. In the knowledge that not all GAA folk are sectarian and bigoted he could cease to exist as his purpose would no longer exist. I wonder will it be like an implosion or a simple fade out?
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Up to the club but should exclude them from Stormont funding.
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Why give unionism a stick to beat you with?
Surely GPA Tom and Conor can deal with this (for the right price), there isn't a conundrum they cant solve
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
I know the ones behind the shoot to kill memorial in Craigavon asked it to be on the grounds of Éire Óg but the club decided not to allow it (the shooting happened just up the road) however I'm not sure any of the volunteers were actually members of the club. Part of me supports Clonoe and part of me doesn't, they could have at least proof read itX
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 22, 2022, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Why give unionism a stick to beat you with?
This is it.
One step forward then two steps back
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 22, 2022, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Why give unionism a stick to beat you with?
but they will continue to beat us down, doesn't matter what we do.
Quote from: Dire Ear on February 23, 2022, 09:26:23 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 22, 2022, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Why give unionism a stick to beat you with?
but they will continue to beat us down, doesn't matter what we do.
So don't make it this easy for them.
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on February 23, 2022, 07:48:46 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 22, 2022, 02:57:25 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Up to the club but should exclude them from Stormont funding.
If you are of this opinion, surely the fact that they honour the "Irish Republican terrorist" M.J O'Rahilly every single day of their existence should exclude them from such funding anyway?
I mean, I would have thought it more acceptable to commemorate members of their own club & community than a man with no attachment to the area at all.
Perhaps, however, there is some Old IRA mental gymnastics at play here.
Don't you just love people who have an opinion and are totally ignorant of any facts.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 22, 2022, 02:57:25 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Up to the club but should exclude them from Stormont funding.
Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or is it the considered view from the good people of Balbriggan, that it's only wrong for Republicans to commemorate their dead in this way?
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 09:51:55 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 22, 2022, 02:57:25 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Up to the club but should exclude them from Stormont funding.
Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or is it the considered view from the good people of Balbriggan, that it's only wrong for Republicans to commemorate their dead in this way?
good post!
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 09:38:09 AM
Quote from: Dire Ear on February 23, 2022, 09:26:23 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 22, 2022, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Why give unionism a stick to beat you with?
but they will continue to beat us down, doesn't matter what we do.
So don't make it this easy for them.
I agree with above. Why did the commemoration have to be tied to the GAA club could it not just have been a community commemoration??
Quote from: screenexile on February 23, 2022, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 09:38:09 AM
Quote from: Dire Ear on February 23, 2022, 09:26:23 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 22, 2022, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Why give unionism a stick to beat you with?
but they will continue to beat us down, doesn't matter what we do.
So don't make it this easy for them.
I agree with above. Why did the commemoration have to be tied to the GAA club could it not just have been a community commemoration??
Because the GAA club were commemorating their fallen members.
Quote from: tiempo on February 23, 2022, 10:58:14 AM
Quote from: screenexile on February 23, 2022, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 09:38:09 AM
Quote from: Dire Ear on February 23, 2022, 09:26:23 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 22, 2022, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Why give unionism a stick to beat you with?
but they will continue to beat us down, doesn't matter what we do.
So don't make it this easy for them.
I agree with above. Why did the commemoration have to be tied to the GAA club could it not just have been a community commemoration??
Because the GAA club were commemorating their fallen members.
Yeah I thought it was obvious why. The club were remembering their own members. Other Volunteers from the area who died on active service were not included because it was a memorial from the Clonoe club to remember their own members.
We need to be careful that the GAA doesn't get used as a vehicle to promote a political point of view.
Most of the membership are there for the sports but a few will align with the GAA to try and use it as a battering ram against Unionists.
Quote from: Dag Dog on February 23, 2022, 11:10:11 AM
We need to be careful that the GAA doesn't get used as a vehicle to promote a political point of view.
Most of the membership are there for the sports but a few will align with the GAA to try and use it as a battering ram against Unionists.
It's a small, dignified memorial to three of their own, placed within the confines of their own ground, with an inscription which merely says "Erected by Clonoe O'Rahilly's in Proud Memory of Our Fallen Gaels".
If you seriously think that sounds like something that was designed purely to be a "battering ram against unionists" then you're bound to concede that it's a meek enough effort. Meanwhile, back in the real world, the rest of us can appreciate that it's just a GAA club, in their own little space, remembering three of their own people.
Quote from: Dag Dog on February 23, 2022, 11:10:11 AM
We need to be careful that the GAA doesn't get used as a vehicle to promote a political point of view.
Most of the membership are there for the sports but a few will align with the GAA to try and use it as a battering ram against Unionists.
Just ask Pat Catney MLA , Lagan Valley , how to grand stand he' ll give a master class !
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 09:51:55 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 22, 2022, 02:57:25 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Up to the club but should exclude them from Stormont funding.
Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or is it the considered view from the good people of Balbriggan, that it's only wrong for Republicans to commemorate their dead in this way?
snapchat playing devils advocate here?
why just pick 3
am sure a fair few gaa volunteers would have worked hard for the club and would have deserved recognition..
as an aside i wonder did the Trusteees in whom the land was vested sign off on the memorial given that one would be from the county board and one from the ulster council, this might cause an issue if consent not obtained .( rule 1.11 very clearly says the gaa is non political so they might be uncomfortable with the singling out of the 3 volunteers as they may construe it as political)
i have no issue with commemorating dead volunteers but its definitely a grey area as to who is worthy of this in gaa club grounds
Quote from: naka on February 23, 2022, 12:58:03 PM
snapchat playing devils advocate here?
Not in the slightest. Merely giving my own opinion, and challenging the ridiculous suggestion that the memorial was only built to antagonise unionism. Again, if it was an effort to attack unionism, then it was a shockingly poor effort, given that it is a small memorial in the corner of a GAA club's own property, which itself is located in an overwhelmingly republican area.
I also challenged the suggestion that the club should be ineligible for Stormont funding, and I in no way am playing devils advocate with that either. I challenged it because it's a ludicrous and insulting suggestion (and I explained why).
Quote from: naka on February 23, 2022, 12:58:03 PM
why just picjk 3
am sure a fair few gaa volunteers would have worked hard for the club have deserved recognition..
Because they were three men who were members of the club, who died young, in tragic circumstances and it was also a milestone anniversary year (30th anniversary of the Clonoe Ambush). Cormac McAnallen's name now proudly adorns the Eglish club grounds. You could as easily ask the same question of them:
"why that one member? a fair few gaa volunteers would have worked hard for the club have deserved recognition". The fact is that in any club, deaths of certain club figures leaves a particular mark on their club/community. Particularly in instances where they were young members who died before their time.
Quote from: naka on February 23, 2022, 12:58:03 PM
as an aside i wonder did the Trusteees in whom the land was vested sign off on the memorial given that one would be from the county board and one from the ulster council, this might cause an issue if consent not obtained .
I have no idea, and to be honest, it's not my business/concern. Not from the club. I just support their right to commemorate their loss as they see fit.
Quote from: naka on February 23, 2022, 12:58:03 PM
i have no issue with commemorating dead volunteers but its definitely a grey area as to who is worthy of this in gaa club grounds
Again, the answer to "who is worthy" of any form of remembrance by their own club, is a matter for that club/community to decide upon. Nobody else.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 09:51:55 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 22, 2022, 02:57:25 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
Up to the club but should exclude them from Stormont funding.
Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or is it the considered view from the good people of Balbriggan, that it's only wrong for Republicans to commemorate their dead in this way?
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
To be clear, the funding I refer to is the cross community peace and love stuff. A decision was made and a tesult of that decision the club is now a cold house for the PUL community.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there
should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda
is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his/her local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
and yet everyone has seen soccer clubs trying to get players to wear poppies and the like.
Quote from: armaghniac on February 23, 2022, 01:49:19 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
and yet everyone has seen soccer clubs trying to get players to wear poppies and the like.
Whataboutery.
Why not just answer my question?
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
If someone went to Windsor Park and heard GSTQ being played and British War dead being commemorated, and poppy fundraisers for ex-British soldiers, would that make a young nationalist more or less likely to attend/join in?
Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:51:30 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 23, 2022, 01:49:19 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
and yet everyone has seen soccer clubs trying to get players to wear poppies and the like.
Whataboutery.
Why not just answer my question?
"Whataboutery" is just a lazy word that people use to try to squirm out having to explain glaring hypocrisies in their argument.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
If someone went to Windsor Park and heard GSTQ being played and British War dead being commemorated, and poppy fundraisers for ex-British soldiers, would that make a young nationalist more or less likely to attend/join in?
Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?
This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists.
If you wish to discuss eg the IFA reaching out to Nationailists, why not start a separate thread on that in the appropriate section?
After all, we wouldn't like to think you were hoping to deflect the discussion on this thread, would we?
Which brings us back to my original question. Any answer?
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:54:54 PM
"Whataboutery" is just a lazy word that people use to try to squirm out having to explain glaring hypocrisies in their argument.
You don't know my "argument" (stance), since I didn't make one. Rather I asked a question to try to discern more about your stance.
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his/her local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
If the soccer team had poppies embroidered onto their playing shirts commemorating the likes of not just the paras, UDR et al but also the UVF, UDA, RHC would that not be more applicable?
You see, the poppy is every bit as offensive to some people as these IRA memorials are to others; and I'm sure you well know, many Unionists like to remember their UVF, UFF, RHC fallen heroes by wearing one...
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his/her local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
Personal choice
Personal choice
Hope this helps
Just wondering, would you advocate violence against cultural expression or have unionists given that up? Reaching out to the oppressor, what a deranged concept, leave that for lickspittles and the like
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
If someone went to Windsor Park and heard GSTQ being played and British War dead being commemorated, and poppy fundraisers for ex-British soldiers, would that make a young nationalist more or less likely to attend/join in?
Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?
This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists.
If you wish to discuss eg the IFA reaching out to Nationailists, why not start a separate thread on that in the appropriate section?
After all, we wouldn't like to think you were hoping to deflect the discussion on this thread, would we?
Which brings us back to my original question. Any answer?
What a laughably pathetic reply. Surely even you could read that back and realise who cowardly it comes across.
If you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of political memorials in GAA grounds, then it's perfectly within the same sphere of discussion to discuss how political memorials are handled by other sports organisations in the same geographical region, by people who lived through the same shared experience of the same conflict.
SO enough dodging.
If someone went to Windsor Park and heard GSTQ being played and British War dead being commemorated, and poppy fundraisers for ex-British soldiers, would that make a young nationalist more or less likely to attend/join in?
Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?
Quote from: general_lee on February 23, 2022, 02:21:29 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his/her local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
If the soccer team had poppies embroidered onto their playing shirts commemorating the likes of not just the paras, UDR et al but also the UVF, UDA, RHC would that not be more applicable?
You see, the poppy is every bit as offensive to some people as these IRA memorials are to others; and I'm sure you well know, many Unionists like to remember their UVF, UFF, RHC fallen heroes by wearing one...
That's still not answering my question, though, is it?
A question which was designed to require you to think about how the GAA's actions impact upon Unionists.
Which is, after all, the whole point of this thread.
So why won't you answer the question? I mean, if you continue to dodge it, I might be forced to draw my own conclusions from your reticence, which kinda defeats the purpose.
Quote from: tiempo on February 23, 2022, 02:26:33 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his/her local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
Personal choice
Personal choice
Hope this helps
Sorry, but it doesn't really help, since you don't disclose what
your choice would be (i.e. carry on in, or turn on your heels and leave).
Quote from: tiempo on February 23, 2022, 02:26:33 PM
Just wondering, would you advocate violence against cultural expression or have unionists given that up? Reaching out to the oppressor, what a deranged concept, leave that for lickspittles and the like
May I deduce from that that you consider
all of your Unionist neighbours/friends/workmates etc to be your "oppressors"?
And if so, does that mean you think the GAA must not attempt to reach out to Unionists (that being the topic of this discussion and all).
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 02:33:31 PM
Quote from: general_lee on February 23, 2022, 02:21:29 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his/her local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
If the soccer team had poppies embroidered onto their playing shirts commemorating the likes of not just the paras, UDR et al but also the UVF, UDA, RHC would that not be more applicable?
You see, the poppy is every bit as offensive to some people as these IRA memorials are to others; and I'm sure you well know, many Unionists like to remember their UVF, UFF, RHC fallen heroes by wearing one...
That's still not answering my question, though, is it?
A question which was designed to require you to think about how the GAA's actions impact upon Unionists.
Which is, after all, the whole point of this thread.
So why won't you answer the question? I mean, if you continue to dodge it, I might be forced to draw my own conclusions from your reticence, which kinda defeats the purpose.
If you are going to continue to insist that discussion of political commemorations by soccer clubs/bodies in the north is somehow unrelated to discussion of how such commemorations are handled by GAA, then it's really just a waste of time trying to engage with you. And you're just wasting your own time trying if you think anyone will take you seriously.
evil genius
not defending your right to challenge,
but i would say
1 the clonoe memorial is a memorial made by a gaa club not by the gaa as a generic organisation which is deliberately trying to stay clear of this minefield in both the South with the civil war commemorations and the North.
my own feelings are that anyone is entitled to recognise their fallen on both sides , it isnt one sided, but its a political point.
i would be surprised if consent was sought and obtained from the trustees given rule 1.11 but maybe i am wrong.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
If someone went to Windsor Park and heard GSTQ being played and British War dead being commemorated, and poppy fundraisers for ex-British soldiers, would that make a young nationalist more or less likely to attend/join in?
Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?
This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists.
If you wish to discuss eg the IFA reaching out to Nationailists, why not start a separate thread on that in the appropriate section?
After all, we wouldn't like to think you were hoping to deflect the discussion on this thread, would we?
Which brings us back to my original question. Any answer?
What a laughably pathetic reply. Surely even you could read that back and realise who cowardly it comes across.
If you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of political memorials in GAA grounds, then it's perfectly within the same sphere of discussion to discuss how political memorials are handled by other sports organisations in the same geographical region, by people who lived through the same shared experience of the same conflict.
SO enough dodging.
So start a separate thread on the topic and see whether I dodge that one then.
In the meantime, my entirely on-topic question was a simple one - UVF memorial" in a soccer club: head on in or turn away?
* - Not that I know of any, since it would undoubtedly be contrary to the rules and regs of the IFA.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 02:30:00 PM
If someone went to Windsor Park and heard GSTQ being played and British War dead being commemorated, and poppy fundraisers for ex-British soldiers, would that make a young nationalist more or less likely to attend/join in?
Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?
You're quite the fan of this Whataboutery game, aren't you?
How are you on Wordle, I'm having a bit of a problem with today's puzzle.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 02:42:27 PM
If you are going to continue to insist that discussion of political commemorations by soccer clubs/bodies in the north is somehow unrelated to discussion of how such commemorations are handled by GAA, then it's really just a waste of time trying to engage with you. And you're just wasting your own time trying if you think anyone will take you seriously.
The thread title is: "GAA must 'reach out' to unionism"
The opening line of the first post is:
"Fermanagh GAA player and journalist Colm Bradley has said further steps should be taken to encourage unionists to play gaelic games."Do you agree with Mr. Bradley and if so, do you think that this memorial, whether allowable or not, is helpful to that end?
Or do you disagree with him?
Humour me with an answer.
You know, as the only Unionist about the place...
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 02:40:55 PM
Quote from: tiempo on February 23, 2022, 02:26:33 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his/her local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
Personal choice
Personal choice
Hope this helps
Sorry, but it doesn't really help, since you don't disclose what your choice would be (i.e. carry on in, or turn on your heels and leave).
Quote from: tiempo on February 23, 2022, 02:26:33 PM
Just wondering, would you advocate violence against cultural expression or have unionists given that up? Reaching out to the oppressor, what a deranged concept, leave that for lickspittles and the like
May I deduce from that that you consider all of your Unionist neighbours/friends/workmates etc to be your "oppressors"?
And if so, does that mean you think the GAA must not attempt to reach out to Unionists (that being the topic of this discussion and all).
I would not partake (personal choice)
Only those who actively actively partook in you know what, their supporters and their apologists, a sizable majority in the context of the oppression otherwise it wouldn't have been possible
The GAA would be well advised to try and build bridges while also being careful not to alienate their longstanding base, there is always room for outreach, it works both ways, lets see how Unionists get on in May and then tell me their readiness for outreach
Quote from: naka on February 23, 2022, 02:43:45 PM
evil genius
not defending your right to challenge,
but i would say
1 the clonoe memorial is a memorial made by a gaa club not by the gaa as a generic organisation which is deliberately trying to stay clear of this minefield in both the South with the civil war commemorations and the North.
my own feelings are that anyone is entitled to recognise their fallen on both sides , it isnt one sided, but its a political point.
i would be surprised if consent was sought and obtained from the trustees given rule 1.11 but maybe i am wrong.
OK, for the sake of argument, let us assume that this memorial does not contravene the Trustees' rules or those of the GAA.
Let us further agree that it is not comtravening the law of the land, along with the general principle that people understandably want to commemorate their dead etc.
That being so, do you accept that such memorials and commemorations can only serve to deter even moderate Unionists from getting involved with the GAA, not just the usual bucketmouths who, as has been pointed out, are ever looking for a stick with which to beat you, regardless of what you say or do?
And if you do agree - and this moderate Unionist would strongly advise that you should - then is it more important to you that clubs should be permitted to maintain this sort of activity, than it is to reach out to their Unionist neighbours?
A quick glance through your old posts suggests you have no qualms about discussing things that actually are unrelated to the thread. You've discussed the A5 road project in a thread specifically about Casement Park. You've discussed your thoughts on Hunger Strike in a thread specifically about attitudes of people in the south to the north. In a thread about GAA finances, you discussed soccer broadcasting. In a thread about potentially merging the LGFA and Camogie associations into the GAA, you discussed such a wide range of topics as offensive chanting and even the history of the Swastika.
So yeah, you're very particular about keeping threads on topic aren't you?
In fact, in a thread about East Belfast GAA, you were more than keen to discuss ni soccer and Winsdor park and GSTQ.
But in a discussion about political commemorations in GAA grounds, you simply point blank refuse to discuss such commemorations in soccer grounds, because it it's not the subject of the thread?
Away and cop yourself on and stop being a coward.
EDIT:
Besides, if, as you keep insisting, you cant bring yourself to discuss soccer/windsor park here because, in your words, "This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists" and that "if I want to discuss the IFA" then I should "start another thread", then why do you simultaneously ask about how UVF memorials in soccer grounds would go down among nationalists? Are we allowed to discuss commemorations by by IFA/soccer clubs or not? Make your mind up!
Personally, as a life long republican, I think it is wrong for the GAA club in question to put up that memorial and the main reason I say that it refers to them three men as "fallen" gaels and gives them the title "vol." Both statements have military connotations and therefore should not be in a GAA ground. That's my personal opinion.
Now if the 3 men were lifelong club officers or players (they have been) and were remembered as such (less the military stuff) then that would be fair enough for me but that's not what that monument says. An in fairness to EG, if my local soccer club remembered vol. Johnny Adair who once played for the team I think I would never set foot in it.
I think the GAA should have a rule to have to approve such memorials before they go ahead and define a set of rules around it.
I think it backward thinking of the club in question and I am not sure what the purpose of doing it is.
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 03:07:32 PM
Quote from: naka on February 23, 2022, 02:43:45 PM
evil genius
not defending your right to challenge,
but i would say
1 the clonoe memorial is a memorial made by a gaa club not by the gaa as a generic organisation which is deliberately trying to stay clear of this minefield in both the South with the civil war commemorations and the North.
my own feelings are that anyone is entitled to recognise their fallen on both sides , it isnt one sided, but its a political point.
i would be surprised if consent was sought and obtained from the trustees given rule 1.11 but maybe i am wrong.
OK, for the sake of argument, let us assume that this memorial does not contravene the Trustees' rules or those of the GAA.
(simple google search shows the rules , so rule 1.11 bans party political so am not assuming),
Let us further agree that it is not comtravening the law of the land, along with the general principle that people understandably want to commemorate their dead etc.
That being so, do you accept that such memorials and commemorations can only serve to deter even moderate Unionists from getting involved with the GAA, not just the usual bucketmouths who, as has been pointed out, are ever looking for a stick with which to beat you, regardless of what you say or do?
[
my club has a fair few unionists and indeed i have gone to watch the North, most fair mainded people on both side see the greater good, and arent interested in what the belligerents on both sides spouts.
[/font]
And if you do agree - and this moderate Unionist would strongly advise that you should - then is it more important to you that clubs should be permitted to maintain this sort of activity, than it is to reach out to their Unionist neighbours?
clubs like soccer clubs have their own agendas/ views, i dont disparage a whole section of a community because of what one club does.
the gaa is a force for good and indeed in my own office it has come a long way from when i was training in my profession and having asked for the monday off because i was playing afinal the day before was told no and was asked was i playing that foreign game, thankfully most people from teh unionist persuasion are fairly nowledgeable about it at this stage
Quote from: tiempo on February 23, 2022, 03:00:32 PM
I would not partake (personal choice)
Only those who actively actively partook in you know what, their supporters and their apologists, a sizable majority in the context of the oppression otherwise it wouldn't have been possible
I'm sorry, it may be me, but I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.
Quote from: tiempo on February 23, 2022, 03:00:32 PM
The GAA would be well advised to try and build bridges while also being careful not to alienate their longstanding base, there is always room for outreach, it works both ways
Fair enough, except that when it comes to the crunch, building such memorials is incompatible with building bridges. That is, you may have the former, but you won't have the latter. Meaning there's a choice to be made.
(I won't tell you what that choice should be, since that must be one for the GAA to make).
Quote from: tiempo on February 23, 2022, 03:00:32 PM
lets see how Unionists get on in May and then tell me their readiness for outreach
Why on earth should an election have anything to do it? Isn't it for the GAA to address on its own merits?
Or are you suggesting it's
Unionists' fault that the GAA is facing this conundrum? That is, we should just be expected to put up with this sort of thing if we are to participate?
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 02:49:25 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
If someone went to Windsor Park and heard GSTQ being played and British War dead being commemorated, and poppy fundraisers for ex-British soldiers, would that make a young nationalist more or less likely to attend/join in?
Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?
This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists.
If you wish to discuss eg the IFA reaching out to Nationailists, why not start a separate thread on that in the appropriate section?
After all, we wouldn't like to think you were hoping to deflect the discussion on this thread, would we?
Which brings us back to my original question. Any answer?
What a laughably pathetic reply. Surely even you could read that back and realise who cowardly it comes across.
If you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of political memorials in GAA grounds, then it's perfectly within the same sphere of discussion to discuss how political memorials are handled by other sports organisations in the same geographical region, by people who lived through the same shared experience of the same conflict.
SO enough dodging.
So start a separate thread on the topic and see whether I dodge that one then.
In the meantime, my entirely on-topic question was a simple one - UVF memorial" in a soccer club: head on in or turn away?
* - Not that I know of any, since it would undoubtedly be contrary to the rules and regs of the IFA.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 02:30:00 PM
If someone went to Windsor Park and heard GSTQ being played and British War dead being commemorated, and poppy fundraisers for ex-British soldiers, would that make a young nationalist more or less likely to attend/join in?
Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?
You're quite the fan of this Whataboutery game, aren't you?
How are you on Wordle, I'm having a bit of a problem with today's puzzle.
I could probably answer this as there are three situations that come to mind.
I have been in Larne (have family there) and I have been into a Rangers supporters club with flags, pictures etc. They knew we were catholic and it certainly helped they knew my uncle but if that had not been the case we wouldn't have been welcomed in they made that quite clear at one point.
On another occasion, I have never been in the place but I use to live across the road from a Rangers supporters club. A protestant girl was having a 21st birthday and her friend was catholic and I think she was the same age went to the party. The men in the club beat the shit out of the girl when they found out she was catholic - I think they found out by her surname or knew of her.
You can't tarnish everyone with the same brush. However, based on my experiences I would have to say I could probably go into a pub that is staunchly unionist but I definitely wouldn't feel welcome or would want to stay even with a friend present.
I have been to catholic places with protestant mates and from experience no trouble whatsoever. My best friend is a protestant and we have gone to a few GAA games again no problems there.
Quote from: Itchy on February 23, 2022, 03:20:44 PM
Personally, as a life long republican, I think it is wrong for the GAA club in question to put up that memorial and the main reason I say that it refers to them three men as "fallen" gaels and gives them the title "vol." Both statements have military connotations and therefore should not be in a GAA ground. That's my personal opinion.
Now if the 3 men were lifelong club officers or players (they have been) and were remembered as such (less the military stuff) then that would be fair enough for me but that's not what that monument says. An in fairness to EG, if my local soccer club remembered vol. Johnny Adair who once played for the team I think I would never set foot in it.
I think the GAA should have a rule to have to approve such memorials before they go ahead and define a set of rules around it.
I think it backward thinking of the club in question and I am not sure what the purpose of doing it is.
They were fallen. And the "Vols" is there because that's their titles. The memorial makes no specific reference to the IRA. Nobody should be described as backward for commemorating their own dead.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 03:08:22 PM
A quick glance through your old posts suggests you have no qualms about discussing things that actually are unrelated to the thread. You've discussed the A5 road project in a thread specifically about Casement Park. You've discussed your thoughts on Hunger Strike in a thread specifically about attitudes of people in the south to the north. In a thread about GAA finances, you discussed soccer broadcasting. In a thread about potentially merging the LGFA and Camogie associations into the GAA, you discussed such a wide range of topics as offensive chanting and even the history of the Swastika.
So yeah, you're very particular about keeping threads on topic aren't you?
In fact, in a thread about East Belfast GAA, you were more than keen to discuss ni soccer and Winsdor park and GSTQ.
But in a discussion about political commemorations in GAA grounds, you simply point blank refuse to discuss such commemorations in soccer grounds, because it it's not the subject of the thread?
Away and cop yourself on and stop being a coward.
EDIT:
Besides, if, as you keep insisting, you cant bring yourself to discuss soccer/windsor park here because, in your words, "This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists" and that "if I want to discuss the IFA" then I should "start another thread", then why do you simultaneously ask about how UVF memorials in soccer grounds would go down among nationalists? Are we allowed to discuss commemorations by by IFA/soccer clubs or not? Make your mind up!
Ok, since you clearly will not answer a simple question, I am forced to deduce that you are foresquare behind the erection of this memorial and the ceremony which went with it etc, and you don't care if it alienates Unionists from participating in the GAA, including its outreach programme.
Fine - your organisation, your choice.
As a soccer fan who firmly believes in "Sport For All", I shall just have to console myself with the knowledge that while we'll always attract eg "your" Pat Jennings, you'll never attract "our" George Best.
Oh well.
P.S. You might want to change your User Name, since your "chat" isn't so "snappy". ;)
P.S. You might want to change your User Name, since your "chat" isn't so "snappy". ;)
Hardly much of a genius, walked into that one i'm afraid.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Quote from: Solo_run on February 23, 2022, 03:27:23 PM
I could probably answer this as there are three situations that come to mind.
I have been in Larne (have family there) and I have been into a Rangers supporters club with flags, pictures etc. They knew we were catholic and it certainly helped they knew my uncle but if that had not been the case we wouldn't have been welcomed in they made that quite clear at one point.
On another occasion, I have never been in the place but I use to live across the road from a Rangers supporters club. A protestant girl was having a 21st birthday and her friend was catholic and I think she was the same age went to the party. The men in the club beat the shit out of the girl when they found out she was catholic - I think they found out by her surname or knew of her.
You can't tarnish everyone with the same brush. However, based on my experiences I would have to say I could probably go into a pub that is staunchly unionist but I definitely wouldn't feel welcome or would want to stay even with a friend present.
I have been to catholic places with protestant mates and from experience no trouble whatsoever. My best friend is a protestant and we have gone to a few GAA games again no problems there.
Thank you for your answer. But with respect, a self-appointed supporters club (in this case Glasgow Rangers) is not the same as an official member club, which will be subject to the rules and disciplinary measures of the governing body, whether IFA, SFA or GAA etc.
I myself have been at an NI away game and upon stepping into a bar, heard "party tunes" being sung from within, at which point me any my mates turned on our heels and found another bar, the point being that there was no such repetition of that carry-on at the match the next day.
As for the rest of your post, sadly the bitterness and bigotry you describe is all too common, even now, and must be roundly deplored in all quarters, without reservation or qualification.
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 03:32:33 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 03:08:22 PM
A quick glance through your old posts suggests you have no qualms about discussing things that actually are unrelated to the thread. You've discussed the A5 road project in a thread specifically about Casement Park. You've discussed your thoughts on Hunger Strike in a thread specifically about attitudes of people in the south to the north. In a thread about GAA finances, you discussed soccer broadcasting. In a thread about potentially merging the LGFA and Camogie associations into the GAA, you discussed such a wide range of topics as offensive chanting and even the history of the Swastika.
So yeah, you're very particular about keeping threads on topic aren't you?
In fact, in a thread about East Belfast GAA, you were more than keen to discuss ni soccer and Winsdor park and GSTQ.
But in a discussion about political commemorations in GAA grounds, you simply point blank refuse to discuss such commemorations in soccer grounds, because it it's not the subject of the thread?
Away and cop yourself on and stop being a coward.
EDIT:
Besides, if, as you keep insisting, you cant bring yourself to discuss soccer/windsor park here because, in your words, "This thread is about the GAA reaching out to Unionists" and that "if I want to discuss the IFA" then I should "start another thread", then why do you simultaneously ask about how UVF memorials in soccer grounds would go down among nationalists? Are we allowed to discuss commemorations by by IFA/soccer clubs or not? Make your mind up!
Ok, since you clearly will not answer a simple question, I am forced to deduce that you are foresquare behind the erection of this memorial and the ceremony which went with it etc, and you don't care if it alienates Unionists from participating in the GAA, including its outreach programme.
Fine - your organisation, your choice.
As a soccer fan who firmly believes in "Sport For All", I shall just have to console myself with the knowledge that while we'll always attract eg "your" Pat Jennings, you'll never attract "our" George Best.
Oh well.
P.S. You might want to change your User Name, since your "chat" isn't so "snappy". ;)
Glad to hear you're finally willing to discuss the soccer parallel. So: my position is that so long as commemorations with political connections are allowed in sports grounds, such as in places like Windsor Park, then they should be permissible in a GAA ground too.
A unionist might not be kicking the door down today to join the Clonoe Club purely because of this memorial. By the same token, a young nationalist may not be kicking the doors down to get to Windsor Park, upon seeing British War dead being commemorated there.
Either you oppose both and believe both should be banned, or you accept that both can continue and decide to live with the ones that you mightn't like, or you are a hypocrite. So which is it: Are you suggesting all commemorations with political connections should be barred from all sports grounds, or only the ones you personally disagree with?
PS. Interesting that you are going to again make assumptions about the religions of GAA players, not a week after making incorrect (sectarian motivated?) assumptions about the religious make-up of the Down hurling team on another thread. Did you learn nothing then?
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 03:31:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 23, 2022, 03:20:44 PM
Personally, as a life long republican, I think it is wrong for the GAA club in question to put up that memorial and the main reason I say that it refers to them three men as "fallen" gaels and gives them the title "vol." Both statements have military connotations and therefore should not be in a GAA ground. That's my personal opinion.
Now if the 3 men were lifelong club officers or players (they have been) and were remembered as such (less the military stuff) then that would be fair enough for me but that's not what that monument says. An in fairness to EG, if my local soccer club remembered vol. Johnny Adair who once played for the team I think I would never set foot in it.
I think the GAA should have a rule to have to approve such memorials before they go ahead and define a set of rules around it.
I think it backward thinking of the club in question and I am not sure what the purpose of doing it is.
They were fallen. And the "Vols" is there because that's their titles. The memorial makes no specific reference to the IRA. Nobody should be described as backward for commemorating their own dead.
Lad - Thats my take on it. Do you ever go down a graveyard and see the word "fallen" on the average headstone. Making no reference to the IRA and then calls them volunteers. And btw, I have no issue with IRA volunteers being remembered but not in GAA ground like this. Thats my honest opinion.
Quote from: Itchy on February 23, 2022, 04:02:20 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 03:31:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 23, 2022, 03:20:44 PM
Personally, as a life long republican, I think it is wrong for the GAA club in question to put up that memorial and the main reason I say that it refers to them three men as "fallen" gaels and gives them the title "vol." Both statements have military connotations and therefore should not be in a GAA ground. That's my personal opinion.
Now if the 3 men were lifelong club officers or players (they have been) and were remembered as such (less the military stuff) then that would be fair enough for me but that's not what that monument says. An in fairness to EG, if my local soccer club remembered vol. Johnny Adair who once played for the team I think I would never set foot in it.
I think the GAA should have a rule to have to approve such memorials before they go ahead and define a set of rules around it.
I think it backward thinking of the club in question and I am not sure what the purpose of doing it is.
They were fallen. And the "Vols" is there because that's their titles. The memorial makes no specific reference to the IRA. Nobody should be described as backward for commemorating their own dead.
Lad - Thats my take on it. Do you ever go down a graveyard and see the word "fallen" on the average headstone. Making no reference to the IRA and then calls them volunteers. And btw, I have no issue with IRA volunteers being remembered but not in GAA ground like this. Thats my honest opinion.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'm merely giving mine.
War dead are regularly described as fallen. These men were involved in a war. Their titles were "Vols". That's who they were. They were members of their club. They laid down their lives for a cause shared by most/all of the people in the club that erected the monument and they are men who's sacrifice is revered in the area. Other Volunteers from the area are not included on this memorial because it's a memorial from the club to their own members. It's their business.
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 02:33:31 PM
Quote from: general_lee on February 23, 2022, 02:21:29 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 23, 2022, 01:48:02 PM
If someone on this Board was interested in joining his/her local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?
Or would he/she just shrug it off?
Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.
If the soccer team had poppies embroidered onto their playing shirts commemorating the likes of not just the paras, UDR et al but also the UVF, UDA, RHC would that not be more applicable?
You see, the poppy is every bit as offensive to some people as these IRA memorials are to others; and I'm sure you well know, many Unionists like to remember their UVF, UFF, RHC fallen heroes by wearing one...
That's still not answering my question, though, is it?
A question which was designed to require you to think about how the GAA's actions impact upon Unionists.
Which is, after all, the whole point of this thread.
So why won't you answer the question? I mean, if you continue to dodge it, I might be forced to draw my own conclusions from your reticence, which kinda defeats the purpose.
Draw your own conclusions if you want, your post isn't very coherent. You immediately made a comparison to soccer clubs, the vast majority of whom are state subsidised and/or don't own their own grounds. Im sure if local soccer clubs operated with the same model as the GAA with similar degrees of autonomy GAA clubs enjoy you'd see similar.
I presume when Portadown took on Linfield on Saturday any Nationalists in the crowd were expected to just shrug off the Army Benevolent Fund collection?
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:15:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 23, 2022, 04:02:20 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 03:31:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on February 23, 2022, 03:20:44 PM
Personally, as a life long republican, I think it is wrong for the GAA club in question to put up that memorial and the main reason I say that it refers to them three men as "fallen" gaels and gives them the title "vol." Both statements have military connotations and therefore should not be in a GAA ground. That's my personal opinion.
Now if the 3 men were lifelong club officers or players (they have been) and were remembered as such (less the military stuff) then that would be fair enough for me but that's not what that monument says. An in fairness to EG, if my local soccer club remembered vol. Johnny Adair who once played for the team I think I would never set foot in it.
I think the GAA should have a rule to have to approve such memorials before they go ahead and define a set of rules around it.
I think it backward thinking of the club in question and I am not sure what the purpose of doing it is.
They were fallen. And the "Vols" is there because that's their titles. The memorial makes no specific reference to the IRA. Nobody should be described as backward for commemorating their own dead.
Lad - Thats my take on it. Do you ever go down a graveyard and see the word "fallen" on the average headstone. Making no reference to the IRA and then calls them volunteers. And btw, I have no issue with IRA volunteers being remembered but not in GAA ground like this. Thats my honest opinion.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'm merely giving mine.
War dead are regularly described as fallen. These men were involved in a war. Their titles were "Vols". That's who they were. They were members of their club. They laid down their lives for a cause shared by most/all of the people in the club that erected the monument and they are men who's sacrifice is revered in the area. Other Volunteers from the area are not included on this memorial because it's a memorial from the club to their own members. It's their business.
Yes it is their business for sure but I dont think they are doing a good job reaching out to the other side of the conflict. Maybe they are not interested in doing that and before you mention the IFA etc, I wouldnt set foot in Windsor park for similar reasons.
There is a simple matter of fact that 99.9999% of clubs in NI are coming exclusively from a geographical and demographic that is from a nationalist/republican majority. As a consequence there are clubs that will have had people involved who were members of the club as well as being members of a paramilitary organisation. No matter what happens people are going to be offended but the further away from the past the easier it is to forget.
I have no issues with unionists raising this as an issue. What I have an issue is the hand wringing from people in the 26 who have clubs named after hero's of Rising or the War of Independence, or the United Irishmen or the Fenian Rising or the 1848 rising, the reality is that whilst they had public support to a point there was never absolute support of any of these. Some were more popular than others but none were backed unequivocally. In 50 years time the Clonoe commemoration and similar will pass off without comment. The only thing that will heal this place is time.
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
No problem with it. It's up to the club. Just the Duppers jumping all over it as usual and therefore the GAA selectively kick up a fuss to it by trying to be do-gooders. Let Clonoe tear away.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 23, 2022, 04:52:39 PM
There is a simple matter of fact that 99.9999% of clubs in NI are coming exclusively from a geographical and demographic that is from a nationalist/republican majority. As a consequence there are clubs that will have had people involved who were members of the club as well as being members of a paramilitary organisation. No matter what happens people are going to be offended but the further away from the past the easier it is to forget.
I have no issues with unionists raising this as an issue. What I have an issue is the hand wringing from people in the 26 who have clubs named after hero's of Rising or the War of Independence, or the United Irishmen or the Fenian Rising or the 1848 rising, the reality is that whilst they had public support to a point there was never absolute support of any of these. Some were more popular than others but none were backed unequivocally. In 50 years time the Clonoe commemoration and similar will pass off without comment. The only thing that will heal this place is time.
But we don't have a dividid society that the GAA claim to, and take money to, be part of reconciliation and healing.
Nobody in the south will not play gaelic games over a clubs name. They will in the 6c.
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on February 23, 2022, 05:17:59 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on February 22, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?
No problem with it. It's up to the club. Just the Duppers jumping all over it as usual and therefore the GAA selectively kick up a fuss to it by trying to be do-gooders. Let Clonoe tear away.
With Stormont mothballed it doesn't matter at present, but ordinarily it's the sort of stuff that provides unionists with moral justification to withhold funding. It probably would have passed without much coverage but the attendance of MO'N obviously raised the profile.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:44:09 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 23, 2022, 04:52:39 PM
There is a simple matter of fact that 99.9999% of clubs in NI are coming exclusively from a geographical and demographic that is from a nationalist/republican majority. As a consequence there are clubs that will have had people involved who were members of the club as well as being members of a paramilitary organisation. No matter what happens people are going to be offended but the further away from the past the easier it is to forget.
I have no issues with unionists raising this as an issue. What I have an issue is the hand wringing from people in the 26 who have clubs named after hero's of Rising or the War of Independence, or the United Irishmen or the Fenian Rising or the 1848 rising, the reality is that whilst they had public support to a point there was never absolute support of any of these. Some were more popular than others but none were backed unequivocally. In 50 years time the Clonoe commemoration and similar will pass off without comment. The only thing that will heal this place is time.
But we don't have a dividid society that the GAA claim to, and take money to, be part of reconciliation and healing.
Nobody in the south will not play gaelic games over a clubs name. They will in the 6c.
Like all large conservative organisations the GAA will have not change incrementally over decades as opposed to years. Names won't change, memories of members won't go away. The demographics will change though. How many clubs in NI actually commemorate for members of the IRA etc? Very few. It's just used a stick, particularly at times like this in the build up to elections. The majority of the clubs are simply interested in playing the games, promoting the language and music and just getting on. No different then in Balbriggan or wherever.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 23, 2022, 06:01:47 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:44:09 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 23, 2022, 04:52:39 PM
There is a simple matter of fact that 99.9999% of clubs in NI are coming exclusively from a geographical and demographic that is from a nationalist/republican majority. As a consequence there are clubs that will have had people involved who were members of the club as well as being members of a paramilitary organisation. No matter what happens people are going to be offended but the further away from the past the easier it is to forget.
I have no issues with unionists raising this as an issue. What I have an issue is the hand wringing from people in the 26 who have clubs named after hero's of Rising or the War of Independence, or the United Irishmen or the Fenian Rising or the 1848 rising, the reality is that whilst they had public support to a point there was never absolute support of any of these. Some were more popular than others but none were backed unequivocally. In 50 years time the Clonoe commemoration and similar will pass off without comment. The only thing that will heal this place is time.
But we don't have a dividid society that the GAA claim to, and take money to, be part of reconciliation and healing.
Nobody in the south will not play gaelic games over a clubs name. They will in the 6c.
Like all large conservative organisations the GAA will have not change incrementally over decades as opposed to years. Names won't change, memories of members won't go away. The demographics will change though. How many clubs in NI actually commemorate for members of the IRA etc? Very few. It's just used a stick, particularly at times like this in the build up to elections. The majority of the clubs are simply interested in playing the games, promoting the language and music and just getting on. No different then in Balbriggan or wherever.
Correct.
There is only a small minority of loyalists who will play camogie, hurling, gaelic football or rounders. The rest want change but won't engage anyway. The occupied six soccer team might change their anthem but I still won't go watch them.
Loyalists or unionists?
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
Ffs you'll all over the place. Sometimes best to stop digging. That last post is a complete embarrassment.
To this day Unionism still denies that NI was founded as a toxic statelet, with an inbuilt institutionalised form of apartheid, that discrimination was even an issue in the 1950s and 1960s, that the civil rights movement had justification, and that violence against the oppressive statelet had a context (whether one agrees with such methods or not).
Now we still have Unionism as an ideology still clinging to the garb of a social&political privilege by birth, some even pretend to put on the liberal cloak of 'equality for all' (a loose fit indeed), use the pretext of some GAA clubs who commemorate IRA members as a reason to justify their barely concealed bigotry and condescension against the GAA.
That the great barrier preventing Unionists from 'reaching out' to the GAA is the grubby uncouth nationalist dominated GAA, not their own bigotry.
Fine, I might or might not join a soccer club that celebrates some ideologically defunct UDA neanderthals but I wouldn't use that as a context not to join another football club or moan about state support for that sport or prevent that sport being played in all schools just because it openly memorializes racist sadistic British imperialism on an annual basis.
Personally I don't agree with the sentiment that the GAA 'must reach out to Unionism'. If schools are to receive state funding for education and sports then it should be mandated that all major sports be made available to their pupils.
In Sambo McNaughton's Laochra Gael he described being stopped at a checkpoint where 4 hurls were destroyed in front of him.
Unionism would need to do some repenting.
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.
If you think I am describing poppies as not being contentious you are deliberately being obtuse.
Clubs with a nationalist or mixed fanbase don't troop the colour or wear poppies. Those with unionist fanbases do. Don't like it myself, but that's the reality. So claiming 6 county soccer = poppies is incorrect.
If nationalists refuse to go and see Norn Iron or Glentoran because of their poppies those are the consequences for those clubs of taking that stance. Consequences that Clonoe apparantly shouldn't have to face. Don't like poppies at a soccer club? Play for or support another one. What option does someone in Clonoe who objects have GAA wise?
It's not a GAA v soccer thing. It's a what one club did thing.
Quote from: Main Street on February 25, 2022, 04:01:28 PM
Personally I don't agree with the sentiment that the GAA 'must reach out to Unionism'..
And that is fine. But Croke Park and the Ulster Council are committed to that goal
and take funding to achieve it.
That to me is the issue - can't play both sides here. If the 6c GAA want to be a nationalist sport for a nationalist people, crack on. Do things like this. If the GAA as a whole are singing kumbya then these things need to stop or be stopped.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.
If you think I am describing poppies as not being contentious you are deliberately being obtuse.
Clubs with a nationalist or mixed fanbase don't troop the colour or wear poppies. Those with unionist fanbases do. Don't like it myself, but that's the reality. So claiming 6 county soccer = poppies is incorrect.
If nationalists refuse to go and see Norn Iron or Glentoran because of their poppies those are the consequences for those clubs of taking that stance. Consequences that Clonoe apparantly shouldn't have to face. Don't like poppies at a soccer club? Play for or support another one. What option does someone in Clonoe who objects have GAA wise?
It's not a GAA v soccer thing. It's a what one club did thing.
So you think money should be withheld from NI football or Glentoran as well as Clonoe?
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.
If you think I am describing poppies as not being contentious you are deliberately being obtuse.
Clubs with a nationalist or mixed fanbase don't troop the colour or wear poppies. Those with unionist fanbases do. Don't like it myself, but that's the reality. So claiming 6 county soccer = poppies is incorrect.
If nationalists refuse to go and see Norn Iron or Glentoran because of their poppies those are the consequences for those clubs of taking that stance. Consequences that Clonoe apparantly shouldn't have to face. Don't like poppies at a soccer club? Play for or support another one. What option does someone in Clonoe who objects have GAA wise?
It's not a GAA v soccer thing. It's a what one club did thing.
So you think money should be withheld from NI football or Glentoran as well as Clonoe?
Glentoran yes. Ni soccer is trickier as not all units troop the colour. Derry City are in that bracket...
But in general if you wear a poppy as policy or unveil memorials to Volunteers you are placing yourself outside the cross commuunity space and should not have access to peace and love funding
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:18:16 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.
If you think I am describing poppies as not being contentious you are deliberately being obtuse.
Clubs with a nationalist or mixed fanbase don't troop the colour or wear poppies. Those with unionist fanbases do. Don't like it myself, but that's the reality. So claiming 6 county soccer = poppies is incorrect.
If nationalists refuse to go and see Norn Iron or Glentoran because of their poppies those are the consequences for those clubs of taking that stance. Consequences that Clonoe apparantly shouldn't have to face. Don't like poppies at a soccer club? Play for or support another one. What option does someone in Clonoe who objects have GAA wise?
It's not a GAA v soccer thing. It's a what one club did thing.
So you think money should be withheld from NI football or Glentoran as well as Clonoe?
Glentoran yes. Ni soccer is trickier as not all units troop the colour. Derry City are in that bracket...
But in general if you wear a poppy as policy or unveil memorials to Volunteers you are placing yourself outside the cross commuunity space and should not have access to peace and love funding
That's fair enough. My point through this is the poppy and IRA memorials should be viewed on the same level with regards to cross community appeal.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:22:45 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:18:16 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.
If you think I am describing poppies as not being contentious you are deliberately being obtuse.
Clubs with a nationalist or mixed fanbase don't troop the colour or wear poppies. Those with unionist fanbases do. Don't like it myself, but that's the reality. So claiming 6 county soccer = poppies is incorrect.
If nationalists refuse to go and see Norn Iron or Glentoran because of their poppies those are the consequences for those clubs of taking that stance. Consequences that Clonoe apparantly shouldn't have to face. Don't like poppies at a soccer club? Play for or support another one. What option does someone in Clonoe who objects have GAA wise?
It's not a GAA v soccer thing. It's a what one club did thing.
So you think money should be withheld from NI football or Glentoran as well as Clonoe?
Glentoran yes. Ni soccer is trickier as not all units troop the colour. Derry City are in that bracket...
But in general if you wear a poppy as policy or unveil memorials to Volunteers you are placing yourself outside the cross commuunity space and should not have access to peace and love funding
That's fair enough. My point through this is the poppy and IRA memorials should be viewed on the same level with regards to cross community appeal.
Maybe. Maybe not. We have to deal with the simple reality that one os a government led thing and one isn't though.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:26:43 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:22:45 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:18:16 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.
If you think I am describing poppies as not being contentious you are deliberately being obtuse.
Clubs with a nationalist or mixed fanbase don't troop the colour or wear poppies. Those with unionist fanbases do. Don't like it myself, but that's the reality. So claiming 6 county soccer = poppies is incorrect.
If nationalists refuse to go and see Norn Iron or Glentoran because of their poppies those are the consequences for those clubs of taking that stance. Consequences that Clonoe apparantly shouldn't have to face. Don't like poppies at a soccer club? Play for or support another one. What option does someone in Clonoe who objects have GAA wise?
It's not a GAA v soccer thing. It's a what one club did thing.
So you think money should be withheld from NI football or Glentoran as well as Clonoe?
Glentoran yes. Ni soccer is trickier as not all units troop the colour. Derry City are in that bracket...
But in general if you wear a poppy as policy or unveil memorials to Volunteers you are placing yourself outside the cross commuunity space and should not have access to peace and love funding
That's fair enough. My point through this is the poppy and IRA memorials should be viewed on the same level with regards to cross community appeal.
Maybe. Maybe not. We have to deal with the simple reality that one os a government led thing and one isn't though.
And you also have to consider the actions of that government.
Put a poll up and see what nationalists views are on the poppy. When it comes to cross community appeal that's all that matters. I think we've had enough of people telling us how we should be thinking.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:33:51 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:26:43 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:22:45 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:18:16 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.
If you think I am describing poppies as not being contentious you are deliberately being obtuse.
Clubs with a nationalist or mixed fanbase don't troop the colour or wear poppies. Those with unionist fanbases do. Don't like it myself, but that's the reality. So claiming 6 county soccer = poppies is incorrect.
If nationalists refuse to go and see Norn Iron or Glentoran because of their poppies those are the consequences for those clubs of taking that stance. Consequences that Clonoe apparantly shouldn't have to face. Don't like poppies at a soccer club? Play for or support another one. What option does someone in Clonoe who objects have GAA wise?
It's not a GAA v soccer thing. It's a what one club did thing.
So you think money should be withheld from NI football or Glentoran as well as Clonoe?
Glentoran yes. Ni soccer is trickier as not all units troop the colour. Derry City are in that bracket...
But in general if you wear a poppy as policy or unveil memorials to Volunteers you are placing yourself outside the cross commuunity space and should not have access to peace and love funding
That's fair enough. My point through this is the poppy and IRA memorials should be viewed on the same level with regards to cross community appeal.
Maybe. Maybe not. We have to deal with the simple reality that one os a government led thing and one isn't though.
And you also have to consider the actions of that government.
Put a poll up and see what nationalists views are on the poppy. When it comes to cross community appeal that's all that matters. I think we've had enough of people telling us how we should be thinking.
I'm not arguing that.
I'm arguing that for right or wrong, social convention is to wear the poppy. This monument is an outlier
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:39:18 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:33:51 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:26:43 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:22:45 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:18:16 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.
If you think I am describing poppies as not being contentious you are deliberately being obtuse.
Clubs with a nationalist or mixed fanbase don't troop the colour or wear poppies. Those with unionist fanbases do. Don't like it myself, but that's the reality. So claiming 6 county soccer = poppies is incorrect.
If nationalists refuse to go and see Norn Iron or Glentoran because of their poppies those are the consequences for those clubs of taking that stance. Consequences that Clonoe apparantly shouldn't have to face. Don't like poppies at a soccer club? Play for or support another one. What option does someone in Clonoe who objects have GAA wise?
It's not a GAA v soccer thing. It's a what one club did thing.
So you think money should be withheld from NI football or Glentoran as well as Clonoe?
Glentoran yes. Ni soccer is trickier as not all units troop the colour. Derry City are in that bracket...
But in general if you wear a poppy as policy or unveil memorials to Volunteers you are placing yourself outside the cross commuunity space and should not have access to peace and love funding
That's fair enough. My point through this is the poppy and IRA memorials should be viewed on the same level with regards to cross community appeal.
Maybe. Maybe not. We have to deal with the simple reality that one os a government led thing and one isn't though.
And you also have to consider the actions of that government.
Put a poll up and see what nationalists views are on the poppy. When it comes to cross community appeal that's all that matters. I think we've had enough of people telling us how we should be thinking.
I'm not arguing that.
I'm arguing that for right or wrong, social convention is to wear the poppy. This monument is an outlier
No offence, you think that because you are happy to listen to the propaganda from the English media. I will not support a charity or organisation that commentates state murders nor should anyone.
My club is named after a 17th century raparee - an Irishman who was a pain in the neck of the planters.
Should I hang my head in shame?
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:45:32 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:39:18 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:33:51 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:26:43 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:22:45 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:18:16 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 25, 2022, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 24, 2022, 08:20:35 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 24, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 23, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?
If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.
Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 23, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.
And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?
This is pure whataboutery.
Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.
Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested
Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.
And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.
I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.
I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.
But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite
Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens. ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?
And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.
I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.
That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.
If you think I am describing poppies as not being contentious you are deliberately being obtuse.
Clubs with a nationalist or mixed fanbase don't troop the colour or wear poppies. Those with unionist fanbases do. Don't like it myself, but that's the reality. So claiming 6 county soccer = poppies is incorrect.
If nationalists refuse to go and see Norn Iron or Glentoran because of their poppies those are the consequences for those clubs of taking that stance. Consequences that Clonoe apparantly shouldn't have to face. Don't like poppies at a soccer club? Play for or support another one. What option does someone in Clonoe who objects have GAA wise?
It's not a GAA v soccer thing. It's a what one club did thing.
So you think money should be withheld from NI football or Glentoran as well as Clonoe?
Glentoran yes. Ni soccer is trickier as not all units troop the colour. Derry City are in that bracket...
But in general if you wear a poppy as policy or unveil memorials to Volunteers you are placing yourself outside the cross commuunity space and should not have access to peace and love funding
That's fair enough. My point through this is the poppy and IRA memorials should be viewed on the same level with regards to cross community appeal.
Maybe. Maybe not. We have to deal with the simple reality that one os a government led thing and one isn't though.
And you also have to consider the actions of that government.
Put a poll up and see what nationalists views are on the poppy. When it comes to cross community appeal that's all that matters. I think we've had enough of people telling us how we should be thinking.
I'm not arguing that.
I'm arguing that for right or wrong, social convention is to wear the poppy. This monument is an outlier
No offence, you think that because you are happy to listen to the propaganda from the English media. I will not support a charity or organisation that commentates state murders nor should anyone.
Try that one again...
Quote from: Orior on February 25, 2022, 07:47:54 PM
My club is named after a 17th century raparee - an Irishman who was a pain in the neck of the planters.
Should I hang my head in shame?
Is there a significant population of Wexford likely to be offended by the name?
The poppy is clearly a political symbol and an offensive symbol IMO in Irish context and FIFA should not have caved in to the British associations. I think all sports including GAA should have strong rules keeping it clear of politics and anything military. That does not mean sport can't take a stand against racism, human rights abuses. Of course the fact that World Cup is in a country where you can be sentenced to death for being Gay shows FIFA won't take a stand where money is to be made, and I suspect that's why they caved on poppy too. Unionists can't have a go at GAA while they celebrate murder by British army, who let's not forget murdered GAA players too - and the poppy celebrates that murder, as did Republican paramilitaries I should add.
Quote from: weareros on February 25, 2022, 10:55:27 PM
The poppy is clearly a political symbol and an offensive symbol IMO in Irish context and FIFA should not have caved in to the British associations. I think all sports including GAA should have strong rules keeping it clear of politics and anything military. That does not mean sport can't take a stand against racism, human rights abuses. Of course the fact that World Cup is in a country where you can be sentenced to death for being Gay shows FIFA won't take a stand where money is to be made, and I suspect that's why they caved on poppy too. Unionists can't have a go at GAA while they celebrate murder by British army, who let's not forget murdered GAA players too - and the poppy celebrates that murder, as did Republican paramilitaries I should add.
Hold on, are you saying the poppy celebrates the murdering of people? Seriously that's some stretch!
Honestly lad that's just bizarre, it's been politicised I get that but it doesn't promote murder, that's like saying the Lilly promoted murder as well!
War is wrong on every level, but it happens/happened and depending on what side of the street you were born on then you'll view it differently. Do you support wars elsewhere in the world?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 25, 2022, 11:49:27 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 25, 2022, 10:55:27 PM
The poppy is clearly a political symbol and an offensive symbol IMO in Irish context and FIFA should not have caved in to the British associations. I think all sports including GAA should have strong rules keeping it clear of politics and anything military. That does not mean sport can't take a stand against racism, human rights abuses. Of course the fact that World Cup is in a country where you can be sentenced to death for being Gay shows FIFA won't take a stand where money is to be made, and I suspect that's why they caved on poppy too. Unionists can't have a go at GAA while they celebrate murder by British army, who let's not forget murdered GAA players too - and the poppy celebrates that murder, as did Republican paramilitaries I should add.
Hold on, are you saying the poppy celebrates the murdering of people? Seriously that's some stretch!
Honestly lad that's just bizarre, it's been politicised I get that but it doesn't promote murder, that's like saying the Lilly promoted murder as well!
War is wrong on every level, but it happens/happened and depending on what side of the street you were born on then you'll view it differently. Do you support wars elsewhere in the world?
If it honours British soldiers, then is Derry, Ballymurphy,, Croke Park exempted? When I see Unionists rushing to get selfies with the soldier who shot a young man -John Pat Cunningham - with special needs in the back, then I can't help thinking all that is included in poppy celebrations. Particularly when soldier is given a state funeral. If so, yes it celebrates murder.
If people shot people it wasn't because of the poppy! Jesus ! The Brit's have been engaged in war here long before the poppy, if the poppy annoys you I get it but f**k! It means celebrating murder you are on glue.
All that other rubbish you've posted has no relevance to the poppy. Blame the people who murdered them, they didn't do it because of the poppy! Weird
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 26, 2022, 12:04:47 AM
If people shot people it wasn't because of the poppy! Jesus ! The Brit's have been engaged in war here long before the poppy, if the poppy annoys you I get it but f**k! It means celebrating murder you are on glue.
All that other rubbish you've posted has no relevance to the poppy. Blame the people who murdered them, they didn't do it because of the poppy! Weird
The poppy is a remembrance of the deeds. I find it distasteful on football shirts, given the lack of acknowledgement that many of these deeds were murder. That's all.
Quote from: weareros on February 26, 2022, 12:13:06 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 26, 2022, 12:04:47 AM
If people shot people it wasn't because of the poppy! Jesus ! The Brit's have been engaged in war here long before the poppy, if the poppy annoys you I get it but f**k! It means celebrating murder you are on glue.
All that other rubbish you've posted has no relevance to the poppy. Blame the people who murdered them, they didn't do it because of the poppy! Weird
The poppy is a remembrance of the deeds. I find it distasteful on football shirts, given the lack of acknowledgement that many of these deeds were murder. That's all.
I've consistently said it's been exploited but it's origin has never been about celebrating murder. In fact it's about remembering and supporting the lives lost in the First World War.
What's happened after that is basically a charity that's exploited and used British media for their own gains.
If you are annoyed about poppies then you can understand how people would be annoyed about GAA clubs being used by political parties to celebrate things that went against their tradition? Not hard to understand that, like I said accident of birth. You'd have a different view had you been born in another part of town.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 26, 2022, 12:33:15 AM
Quote from: weareros on February 26, 2022, 12:13:06 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 26, 2022, 12:04:47 AM
If people shot people it wasn't because of the poppy! Jesus ! The Brit's have been engaged in war here long before the poppy, if the poppy annoys you I get it but f**k! It means celebrating murder you are on glue.
All that other rubbish you've posted has no relevance to the poppy. Blame the people who murdered them, they didn't do it because of the poppy! Weird
The poppy is a remembrance of the deeds. I find it distasteful on football shirts, given the lack of acknowledgement that many of these deeds were murder. That's all.
I've consistently said it's been exploited but it's origin has never been about celebrating murder. In fact it's about remembering and supporting the lives lost in the First World War.
What's happened after that is basically a charity that's exploited and used British media for their own gains.
If you are annoyed about poppies then you can understand how people would be annoyed about GAA clubs being used by political parties to celebrate things that went against their tradition? Not hard to understand that, like I said accident of birth. You'd have a different view had you been born in another part of town.
I'm against both, I thought I was clear. A club colleague, a friend, was murdered by Republican paramilitaries. These celebrations should never be associated with the GAA. There's a time and place, and it's not the GAA. It annoys me that both GAA and soccer - be it FIFA, IFA, FA, etc, don't clamp down on this.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:46:19 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 25, 2022, 04:01:28 PM
Personally I don't agree with the sentiment that the GAA 'must reach out to Unionism'..
And that is fine. But Croke Park and the Ulster Council are committed to that goal and take funding to achieve it.
That to me is the issue - can't play both sides here. If the 6c GAA want to be a nationalist sport for a nationalist people, crack on. Do things like this. If the GAA as a whole are singing kumbya then these things need to stop or be stopped.
The IFA say they are committed to reaching out across the divide too, but you keep make excuses for them promoting the Poppy and playing gstq etc and the norths games in windsor park etc. Double standards.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:39:18 PM
I'm arguing that for right or wrong, social convention is to wear the poppy. This monument is an outlier
What a load of absolute and utter bull. The poppy is not a social convention. It is exclusive to one community in a divided society. That makes it a contentious and divisive symbol which makes many nationalists uncomfortable. Either you are opposed to any politically uncomfortable symbols in sport, or you are not. Your attempts to pick and choose are so bloody transparently grounded in your own bias, it's laughable.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
If you think I am describing poppies as not being contentious you are deliberately being obtuse.
Well you are the inevitable saying the issue with the Clonoe memorial is that it goes against the cross community ethos of sport and shouldn't be in a sports ground. You are on tbe other hand defending the right if another sports body to promote what you seem to accept also goes acquaint a cross community ethos. Ridiculous.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
Clubs with a nationalist or mixed fanbase don't troop the colour or wear poppies. Those with unionist fanbases do. Don't like it myself, but that's the reality. So claiming 6 county soccer = poppies is incorrect.
And? Not all GAA clubs have memorials to IRA Volunteers either. The north's soccer team, and their home ground, is promoted by the IFA as being for everyone. Cross community. Politically neutral. You say Clonoe are breaching their claims to be cross community woth the memorial, bit somehow don't have an issue with the IFA doing the exact same: making their home ground a potentially politically one sided environment.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
If nationalists refuse to go and see Norn Iron or Glentoran because of their poppies those are the consequences for those clubs of taking that stance. Consequences that Clonoe apparantly shouldn't have to face.
Lol what?? You're complaining about the perception that people believe Clonoe shouldnt face consequences but soccer should? You're the one saying the Clonoe should face sanctions but are actively defending the IFA'S right to promote a politically divisive symbol in Wondsor Park.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
Don't like poppies at a soccer club? Play for or support another one. What option does someone in Clonoe who objects have GAA wise?
What of those who would go to support the north but are uncomfortable with the propotion in the grounds of politically uncomfortable symbols? Or is it only those who might be uncomfortable to attend Clonoe that we should be concerned about? Besides, if you are worried about the sensitivities of Clonoe's unionist community, you really don't know Clonoe.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 06:42:34 PM
It's not a GAA v soccer thing. It's a what one club did thing.
And we'll just agree not to mention British War memorials being promoted by the "cross community" team in Windsor Park?
Quote from: Snapchap on February 26, 2022, 07:40:01 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:39:18 PM
I'm arguing that for right or wrong, social convention is to wear the poppy. This monument is an outlier
What a load of absolute and utter bull. The poppy is not a social convention. It is exclusive to one community in a divided society. That makes it a contentious and divisive symbol which makes many nationalists uncomfortable. Either you are opposed to any politically uncomfortable symbols in sport, or you are not. Your attempts to pick and choose are so bloody transparently grounded in your own bias, it's laughable.
What are your views on the Soldiers Song being played at the Aviva for Ireland rugby matches? As it does not represent all of the island of Ireland, surely that makes it contentious and divisive too?
Quote from: michaelg on February 26, 2022, 11:55:21 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 26, 2022, 07:40:01 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:39:18 PM
I'm arguing that for right or wrong, social convention is to wear the poppy. This monument is an outlier
What a load of absolute and utter bull. The poppy is not a social convention. It is exclusive to one community in a divided society. That makes it a contentious and divisive symbol which makes many nationalists uncomfortable. Either you are opposed to any politically uncomfortable symbols in sport, or you are not. Your attempts to pick and choose are so bloody transparently grounded in your own bias, it's laughable.
What are your views on the Soldiers Song being played at the Aviva for Ireland rugby matches? As it does not represent all of the island of Ireland, surely that makes it contentious and divisive too?
LMAO yesterday you didn't want to discuss the poppy. Are you prepared to discuss it today?
Quote from: Snapchap on February 26, 2022, 07:40:01 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:39:18 PM
I'm arguing that for right or wrong, social convention is to wear the poppy. This monument is an outlier
What a load of absolute and utter bull. The poppy is not a social convention. It is exclusive to one community in a divided society. That makes it a contentious and divisive symbol which makes many nationalists uncomfortable. Either you are opposed to any politically uncomfortable symbols in sport, or you are not. Your attempts to pick and choose are so bloody transparently grounded in your own bias, it's laughable.
My bias? Look at the words I used to describe the poppy you nut.
The problem here is you are ignoring what I am actually saying because it doesn't fit in your pre concieved/pre written rant.
That means you are either as thick as shit or not on the level. Or both.
Either engage with what I wrote or ask my rope.
Quote from: michaelg on February 26, 2022, 11:55:21 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 26, 2022, 07:40:01 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:39:18 PM
I'm arguing that for right or wrong, social convention is to wear the poppy. This monument is an outlier
What a load of absolute and utter bull. The poppy is not a social convention. It is exclusive to one community in a divided society. That makes it a contentious and divisive symbol which makes many nationalists uncomfortable. Either you are opposed to any politically uncomfortable symbols in sport, or you are not. Your attempts to pick and choose are so bloody transparently grounded in your own bias, it's laughable.
What are your views on the Soldiers Song being played at the Aviva for Ireland rugby matches? As it does not represent all of the island of Ireland, surely that makes it contentious and divisive too?
It's the Irish national anthem.
Should GSTQ be played before (NI) games?
The poppy should be nowhere near any sporting event or on shirts. That said IRA commemorative stones or whatever should not be in GAA grounds
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 26, 2022, 03:15:11 PM
Quote from: michaelg on February 26, 2022, 11:55:21 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 26, 2022, 07:40:01 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:39:18 PM
I'm arguing that for right or wrong, social convention is to wear the poppy. This monument is an outlier
What a load of absolute and utter bull. The poppy is not a social convention. It is exclusive to one community in a divided society. That makes it a contentious and divisive symbol which makes many nationalists uncomfortable. Either you are opposed to any politically uncomfortable symbols in sport, or you are not. Your attempts to pick and choose are so bloody transparently grounded in your own bias, it's laughable.
What are your views on the Soldiers Song being played at the Aviva for Ireland rugby matches? As it does not represent all of the island of Ireland, surely that makes it contentious and divisive too?
It's the Irish national anthem.
Should GSTQ be played before (NI) games?
In my opinion, no. Like Wales and Scotland, NI should have own anthem. Don't see what is wrong with Danny Boy even, as it's used at Commonwealth Games (Even if that wee scrote Barnes doesn't like it lol). Good compromise would be 2 anthems like the rugby, but don't think that's allowed by UEFA/FIFA.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 26, 2022, 01:51:28 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on February 26, 2022, 07:40:01 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 25, 2022, 07:39:18 PM
I'm arguing that for right or wrong, social convention is to wear the poppy. This monument is an outlier
What a load of absolute and utter bull. The poppy is not a social convention. It is exclusive to one community in a divided society. That makes it a contentious and divisive symbol which makes many nationalists uncomfortable. Either you are opposed to any politically uncomfortable symbols in sport, or you are not. Your attempts to pick and choose are so bloody transparently grounded in your own bias, it's laughable.
My bias? Look at the words I used to describe the poppy you nut.
The problem here is you are ignoring what I am actually saying because it doesn't fit in your pre concieved/pre written rant.
That means you are either as thick as shit or not on the level. Or both.
Either engage with what I wrote or ask my rope.
Of course you are bias. Just because you have described your dislike of the poppy doesn't mean you haven't repeatedly defended/excused its promotion by the IFA. Two instances of sports facilitating politically contentious symbols. You are only calling for sanctions for one and making excuses for the other.