GAA must 'reach out' to unionism

[lynchbhoy]

Gnevin why in the high heavens would anyone want to remove the flag of the nation from the national games? How daft would that sound. The flag is not and should not be an issue as it is representative of all sections of our siociety. (well maybe not the foreign influx)  Is there no end to the concessions you would give ?? Why don't you become a unionist because you would do a good job on the negotiating front. Unionism aspires to preserve the Union. Nationalism aspires to creating a 32 county state. These are the complete opposite so the politics that surround the issue will never allow one simple solution or even 75% worths . To suggest removing the flag and anthem is the most rediculus point raised yet.

Winsamsoon, your arguments are consistent in their inability to represent logical and rational thinking.

The whole point of this argument is to try and identify the barriers there may be to joining the GAA from a unionist perspective.  For unionists, the flag is not of their nation and does not represent them.  We don't need a lession on what the colours of the flag represent - we all know what they represented when the flag was established, but for many, that's irrelevant.

I know i won't feel any less Irish if i was to head to a league or championship game and not see the tricolour.  I'll hopefully also be able to identify that I'll be watching the national game in front of me, despite the lack of a flag. (Oh, and that reminds me of another thread some time ago - if i recall correctly, the flag is not flown at night, i think Parnell Park was the example given.  During none of these evening games did the world end, did unionism advance or did the GAA lose its Irishness - to my knowledge at least.  Excuse the sarcasm.)  I would therefore come to the conclusion that it is not essential to fly the flag at every game.  If a GAA flag is flown, it would be no less Irish, would still represent the 32 counties (and beyond, as would now be relevant), but would remove any unnecessary political dimension.

As for the national anthem, its recital at certain games can be an embarrassment and actually shows a real lack of respect for it, to the extent that it would be better not to play it at all.  Its fine when its played at a big match with a proper band (although the amount of bands that still manage to mess it up baffles me!), but when it's cranked out through a crap PA from some dodgy tape (no CD could sound that bad!), or sung out of tune by a dodgy soloist (and generally without accompaniment from the crowd - at least in this part of the country) it does it no justice. There would be no loss to discontinuing its use, at least at certain levels.

and the flying of the tricolour stops them from attending rugby matches in lansdowne or croke park
and it also stops them from playing rugby then ?

I'm a tad confused by this 'rationale'

long story short - the impasse stopping unionists and unionism from embracing the GAA is unionism and unionists themselves.

look at the moving of goalposts to get the ceasefire, GFA and eventually ni assembly encountered - I mean 'photos' of decommissioned guns etc

same mindset here
yer wasting your time (as I think I must be) - so as the man says, give it 10 years and then see the 'committment !

[Maguire01]

I know the support for such things is coming from the likes of yourself or gnevin.

To that end, it is noted by people in the north, you know, the people who know whether it would actually work...

For some reason you and the likes of gnevin seem to think that you know more about unionist thinking than those of us who live north of the border.  That amazes me as virtually noone else in the north connected to the GAA supports what you are saying about unionist thinking.  Do us all a favour, give it 10 years and then see if unionism has embraced the GAA, then you might get the support you would need from the GAA base.

Until then, forget it.

I've lived in the North for over 20 years in Antrim, Down and Fermanagh. For the other early years of my life, i lived just a few miles on the other side.
Would you consider the possibility that those in the North who would oppose such views are generally more vocal about it than those who would be in favour of such changes? Or indeed indifferent to such changes, considering how little it would actually impact on what the GAA is and means to them (not fogetting that the article at the top of this discussion was penned by a Northern GAA footballer)?

[winsamsoon]

Winsamsoon, your arguments are consistent in their inability to represent logical and rational thinking

Maguire i will put it in the simpliest form then if you can't fathom what i am saying. You talk about the anthem and flag not being that big of deal. Well i am a member of the GAA and i think it is a very big deal. A nationalistic organisation such as the GAA should always have their flag flying and their anthem sung. Some grounds may not have to technology to play it to your liking but it certainly doesn't disgrace the tune. In fact this highlights in many ways what the GAA is about. It is a organisation that was partly formed to preserve Irish culture at a time when England was trying to eradicate it by introducing anglicised games. The GAA today is still fighting that battle. The relevance to this particular case is the ideological clash. Unionism competing with nationalism, especially in the 6 counties. The GAA is mainly made up of nationalists, the flag and anthem represent the wishes of the majority of these people therefore any minority group looking to become part of the organisation must do so whilst at the same time accepting the status quo that was put in place for one reason only simply because it is the flag and anthem of our nation. There are not sectarian themes hidden within this. Anyone who claims there are any hidden agenda's behind this is completly of the mark. In my opinion a major part of the problem why more unionists do not part take in the GAA is because of their own mindset and ignorance to our culture. I know that i am totally ignorant to Ulster scots but i wouldn't attempt to become part of that organisation and firstly demand changes to the major symbols that are key to it. What needs to be done is for Unionist leaders like Edwin poots to embrace the GAA and sit down with the president and discuss Unionists fears . But Unionists must first understand the organisation and realise that the Flag and Anthem is not there as a sign of bigotry but simply as a key item within any nationalistic group. Unionst members may then filter this back to the community they represent and then further negotiations could commence.

[orangeman]

Winsamsoon, your arguments are consistent in their inability to represent logical and rational thinking

Maguire i will put it in the simpliest form then if you can't fathom what i am saying. You talk about the anthem and flag not being that big of deal. Well i am a member of the GAA and i think it is a very big deal. A nationalistic organisation such as the GAA should always have their flag flying and their anthem sung. Some grounds may not have to technology to play it to your liking but it certainly doesn't disgrace the tune. In fact this highlights in many ways what the GAA is about. It is a organisation that was partly formed to preserve Irish culture at a time when England was trying to eradicate it by introducing anglicised games. The GAA today is still fighting that battle. The relevance to this particular case is the ideological clash. Unionism competing with nationalism, especially in the 6 counties. The GAA is mainly made up of nationalists, the flag and anthem represent the wishes of the majority of these people therefore any minority group looking to become part of the organisation must do so whilst at the same time accepting the status quo that was put in place for one reason only simply because it is the flag and anthem of our nation. There are not sectarian themes hidden within this. Anyone who claims there are any hidden agenda's behind this is completly of the mark. In my opinion a major part of the problem why more unionists do not part take in the GAA is because of their own mindset and ignorance to our culture. I know that i am totally ignorant to Ulster scots but i wouldn't attempt to become part of that organisation and firstly demand changes to the major symbols that are key to it. What needs to be done is for Unionist leaders like Edwin poots to embrace the GAA and sit down with the president and discuss Unionists fears . But Unionists must first understand the organisation and realise that the Flag and Anthem is not there as a sign of bigotry but simply as a key item within any nationalistic group. Unionst members may then filter this back to the community they represent and then further negotiations could commence.

Sam - I'm very impressed with your argument even if I am on your side of the argument - it's very well put -

Maguire - why didn't the English rugby team last year decide not to play the Queen in Croke Park - this would have a nice gesture on their part ?

But they ploughed on ( as is their right to do so ) !

[Maguire01]

Sam - I'm very impressed with your argument even if I am on your side of the argument - it's very well put -

Maguire - why didn't the English rugby team last year decide not to play the Queen in Croke Park - this would have a nice gesture on their part ?

But they ploughed on ( as is their right to do so ) !

Can i ask what English Rugby has to do with Northern Unionists? We're not trying to convert English Rugby fans. I'm confused as to the parallel you're drawing.

Fair enough, orangeman and winsamsoon - some people need the extra assurance and comfort of the anthem and flags to reassert their identity.  That may well be due to living in the North and having the Union Jack forced on you, or other similar circumstances - it's not for me to say.

I'm sufficiently confident in my identity to the extent that i wouldn't feel short-changed by the absence of a flag or anthem. My interest in GAA stems exclusively from the sport.  For me, the Irish identity is within the sport itself, not the extras.  For me, i wouldn't be compromising myself in order to depoliticise the organisation. You're clearly not at the same place.

[passedit]

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=d9uHhLe6WE0

[ardmhachaabu]

I've lived in the North for over 20 years in Antrim, Down and Fermanagh. For the other early years of my life, i lived just a few miles on the other side.
Would you consider the possibility that those in the North who would oppose such views are generally more vocal about it than those who would be in favour of such changes? Or indeed indifferent to such changes, considering how little it would actually impact on what the GAA is and means to them (not fogetting that the article at the top of this discussion was penned by a Northern GAA footballer)?

No, I most certainly wouldn't.  If folk in the GAA really wanted to start making approaches to unionism, it would be communicated from club level, that's not happening at the minute, generally speaking throughout the country.

Maguire, I will take your word you have lived here, I am wondering though if you paid attention to unionism in full swing against... well against anything Irish.  Unionism as a political force would dearly like to see the demise of the GAA rather than support it in any shape or form.  Hence, they are not minded to want to play, watch or participate in GAA sports, again generally speaking.

[orangeman]

Sam - I'm very impressed with your argument even if I am on your side of the argument - it's very well put -

Maguire - why didn't the English rugby team last year decide not to play the Queen in Croke Park - this would have a nice gesture on their part ?

But they ploughed on ( as is their right to do so ) !

Can i ask what English Rugby has to do with Northern Unionists? We're not trying to convert English Rugby fans. I'm confused as to the parallel you're drawing.

Fair enough, orangeman and winsamsoon - some people need the extra assurance and comfort of the anthem and flags to reassert their identity.  That may well be due to living in the North and having the Union Jack forced on you, or other similar circumstances - it's not for me to say.

I'm sufficiently confident in my identity to the extent that i wouldn't feel short-changed by the absence of a flag or anthem. My interest in GAA stems exclusively from the sport.  For me, the Irish identity is within the sport itself, not the extras.  For me, i wouldn't be compromising myself in order to depoliticise the organisation. You're clearly not at the same place.

So will we do what you suggest and get rid of all flags, emblems, names, references to the past, our history, our culture and identity ??

Go away and catch yourself on !

[Main Street]

GAA practice has been to make changes when they are appropriate, when situations change, not to suit the agenda of detractors or critics as to their letterbox view of what an acceptable GAA is.
The GAA have made changes to the rule book when it was appropriate to do so.
None of those changes have weakened it.

The original post in this thread had reference to "Rule Two states:'The association is a national organisation which has a basic aim of the strengthening of the national identity of a 32-county Ireland through the presentation of Gaelic games and pastimes'.
That is clearly a nationalist political aspiration. I happen to agree with that aspiration but it is not the GAA business to have that in the rule book. It is guaranteed in the State Constitution how a 32 county nation can come about, this change was accepted democratically across the Island.

 

[Maguire01]

I've lived in the North for over 20 years in Antrim, Down and Fermanagh. For the other early years of my life, i lived just a few miles on the other side.
Would you consider the possibility that those in the North who would oppose such views are generally more vocal about it than those who would be in favour of such changes? Or indeed indifferent to such changes, considering how little it would actually impact on what the GAA is and means to them (not fogetting that the article at the top of this discussion was penned by a Northern GAA footballer)?

No, I most certainly wouldn't.  If folk in the GAA really wanted to start making approaches to unionism, it would be communicated from club level, that's not happening at the minute, generally speaking throughout the country.

Maguire, I will take your word you have lived here, I am wondering though if you paid attention to unionism in full swing against... well against anything Irish.  Unionism as a political force would dearly like to see the demise of the GAA rather than support it in any shape or form.  Hence, they are not minded to want to play, watch or participate in GAA sports, again generally speaking.

I'm not sure why you would doubt that i live in the North... is it that hard to fathom that someone could live in the North and have a different opinion?
Anyway, i have never suggested that any outreach to Unionists would be for the benefit of DUP Unionists or all unionists.  There are many, many moderate unionists, possibly atill a small minority within unionism generally, who are not looking for an excuse to attack the GAA, and may, in a changing political environment, consider playing Gaelic games, but may see overt politics as a barrier to doing so (possibly similar, in some respects, to the way Catholics would have difficulty going to games in Windsor Park due to flags and GSTQ - not that i'm drawing an exact comparison here).

So will we do what you suggest and get rid of all flags, emblems, names, references to the past, our history, our culture and identity ??

Go away and catch yourself on !

No, not at all.  The GAA's rich history should be preserved, by all means - i've only raised debate on political elements.  But as has been pointed out, rules have changed before as circumstances have changed.  Lets not forget also that the establishment of the GAA predates the tricolour and the national anthem.

Anyway, this discussion is starting to go in circles, so I'll bow out - we're unlikely to reach any consensus.

[orangeman]

I've lived in the North for over 20 years in Antrim, Down and Fermanagh. For the other early years of my life, i lived just a few miles on the other side.
Would you consider the possibility that those in the North who would oppose such views are generally more vocal about it than those who would be in favour of such changes? Or indeed indifferent to such changes, considering how little it would actually impact on what the GAA is and means to them (not fogetting that the article at the top of this discussion was penned by a Northern GAA footballer)?

No, I most certainly wouldn't.  If folk in the GAA really wanted to start making approaches to unionism, it would be communicated from club level, that's not happening at the minute, generally speaking throughout the country.

Maguire, I will take your word you have lived here, I am wondering though if you paid attention to unionism in full swing against... well against anything Irish.  Unionism as a political force would dearly like to see the demise of the GAA rather than support it in any shape or form.  Hence, they are not minded to want to play, watch or participate in GAA sports, again generally speaking.

I'm not sure why you would doubt that i live in the North... is it that hard to fathom that someone could live in the North and have a different opinion?
Anyway, i have never suggested that any outreach to Unionists would be for the benefit of DUP Unionists or all unionists.  There are many, many moderate unionists, possibly atill a small minority within unionism generally, who are not looking for an excuse to attack the GAA, and may, in a changing political environment, consider playing Gaelic games, but may see overt politics as a barrier to doing so (possibly similar, in some respects, to the way Catholics would have difficulty going to games in Windsor Park due to flags and GSTQ - not that i'm drawing an exact comparison here).

So will we do what you suggest and get rid of all flags, emblems, names, references to the past, our history, our culture and identity ??

Go away and catch yourself on !

No, not at all.  The GAA's rich history should be preserved, by all means - i've only raised debate on political elements.  But as has been pointed out, rules have changed before as circumstances have changed.  Lets not forget also that the establishment of the GAA predates the tricolour and the national anthem.

Anyway, this discussion is starting to go in circles, so I'll bow out - we're unlikely to reach any consensus.

No problem but as someone said, it's good to talk ! Not sure what you mean about raising debate on the "political elements" !

[Maguire01]

Not wanting to keep the discussion going here, but just to clarify, I probably should have said political 'symbolism' (i.e. as opposed to purely GAA symbolism - flags, emblems etc) rather than 'elements'.

As for someone who once said 'It's good to talk', i believe it was British Telecom 

[orangeman]

Ok - what symbols would you propose to remove -

Tricolour ? Republican memorials ? Names like Wolfe Tones ?

[lynchbhoy]

Ok - what symbols would you propose to remove -

Tricolour ? Republican memorials ? Names like Wolfe Tones ?

currently that would still not work as the goalposts would be shifted for the GAA to change everything from different style of goalposts, disallowing handling the ball, bringing the teams down to 11 players and flying the union jack and calling it soccer.
If you remember the precedent where they would not agree to form the assembly after concession after concession was agreed and aall efforts were to 'compromise'    towards their preferences - then you will see that modern day unionism with its forked tongue would never never never accept any measures to integrate them including the ones maguire01 states.
Lets wait a while until they become more rational and reasonable and for a time where any moves would be welcomed and not pointless.
As right now this (talk of integrating unionism into GAA) is all futile and just dumb. They are not disallowed, its their own mindsets. So we would be better revisiting this in 5 -10 years.

[winsamsoon]

I would agree with most of that Lynchboy but i am not sure the board will still exist in 5-10 years  . I think what most of us are overlooking is the fact that no one has dissalowed Unionists from entering the GAA. The debate has probably run it's course and we are starting to repeat issues. Plus there were very little village idiots posting on the thread which always helps.