GAA must 'reach out' to unionism

[Itchy]

Personally, as a life long republican, I think it is wrong for the GAA club in question to put up that memorial and the main reason I say that it refers to them three men as "fallen" gaels and gives them the title "vol." Both statements have military connotations and therefore should not be in a GAA ground. That's my personal opinion.

Now if the 3 men were lifelong club officers or players (they have been) and were remembered as such (less the military stuff) then that would be fair enough for me but that's not what that monument says. An in fairness to EG, if my local soccer club remembered vol. Johnny Adair who once played for the team I think I would never set foot in it.

I think the GAA should have a rule to have to approve such memorials before they go ahead and define a set of rules around it.

I think it backward thinking of the club in question and I am not sure what the purpose of doing it is.

They were fallen. And the "Vols" is there because that's their titles. The memorial makes no specific reference to the IRA. Nobody should be described as backward for commemorating their own dead.

Lad - Thats my take on it. Do you ever go down a graveyard and see the word "fallen" on the average headstone. Making no reference to the IRA and then calls them volunteers. And btw, I have no issue with IRA volunteers being remembered but not in GAA ground like this. Thats my honest opinion.

[Snapchap]

Personally, as a life long republican, I think it is wrong for the GAA club in question to put up that memorial and the main reason I say that it refers to them three men as "fallen" gaels and gives them the title "vol." Both statements have military connotations and therefore should not be in a GAA ground. That's my personal opinion.

Now if the 3 men were lifelong club officers or players (they have been) and were remembered as such (less the military stuff) then that would be fair enough for me but that's not what that monument says. An in fairness to EG, if my local soccer club remembered vol. Johnny Adair who once played for the team I think I would never set foot in it.

I think the GAA should have a rule to have to approve such memorials before they go ahead and define a set of rules around it.

I think it backward thinking of the club in question and I am not sure what the purpose of doing it is.

They were fallen. And the "Vols" is there because that's their titles. The memorial makes no specific reference to the IRA. Nobody should be described as backward for commemorating their own dead.

Lad - Thats my take on it. Do you ever go down a graveyard and see the word "fallen" on the average headstone. Making no reference to the IRA and then calls them volunteers. And btw, I have no issue with IRA volunteers being remembered but not in GAA ground like this. Thats my honest opinion.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'm merely giving mine.

War dead are regularly described as fallen. These men were involved in a war. Their titles were "Vols". That's who they were. They were members of their club. They laid down their lives for a cause shared by most/all of the people in the club that erected the monument and they are men who's sacrifice is revered in the area. Other Volunteers from the area are not included on this memorial because it's a memorial from the club to their own members. It's their business.

[general_lee]

If someone on this Board was interested in joining his/her local soccer club, went along and saw that there was a memorial eg to three dead UVF men on the premises, would that make him/her more or less likely to go ahead?

Or would he/she just shrug it off?

Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a club, whether soccer/UVF or GAA/IRA.

If the soccer team had poppies embroidered onto their playing shirts commemorating the likes of not just the paras, UDR et al but also the UVF, UDA, RHC would that not be more applicable?
You see, the poppy is every bit as offensive to some people as these IRA memorials are to others; and I'm sure you well know, many Unionists like to remember their UVF, UFF, RHC fallen heroes by wearing one...

That's still not answering my question, though, is it?

A question which was designed to require you to think about how the GAA's actions impact upon Unionists.

Which is, after all, the whole point of this thread.

So why won't you answer the question? I mean, if you continue to dodge it, I might be forced to draw my own conclusions from your reticence, which kinda defeats the purpose.

Draw your own conclusions if you want, your post isn't very coherent. You immediately made a comparison to soccer clubs, the vast majority of whom are state subsidised and/or don't own their own grounds. Im sure if local soccer clubs operated with the same model as the GAA with similar degrees of autonomy GAA clubs enjoy you'd see similar.

I presume when Portadown took on Linfield on Saturday any Nationalists in the crowd were expected to just shrug off the Army Benevolent Fund collection?

[Itchy]

Personally, as a life long republican, I think it is wrong for the GAA club in question to put up that memorial and the main reason I say that it refers to them three men as "fallen" gaels and gives them the title "vol." Both statements have military connotations and therefore should not be in a GAA ground. That's my personal opinion.

Now if the 3 men were lifelong club officers or players (they have been) and were remembered as such (less the military stuff) then that would be fair enough for me but that's not what that monument says. An in fairness to EG, if my local soccer club remembered vol. Johnny Adair who once played for the team I think I would never set foot in it.

I think the GAA should have a rule to have to approve such memorials before they go ahead and define a set of rules around it.

I think it backward thinking of the club in question and I am not sure what the purpose of doing it is.

They were fallen. And the "Vols" is there because that's their titles. The memorial makes no specific reference to the IRA. Nobody should be described as backward for commemorating their own dead.

Lad - Thats my take on it. Do you ever go down a graveyard and see the word "fallen" on the average headstone. Making no reference to the IRA and then calls them volunteers. And btw, I have no issue with IRA volunteers being remembered but not in GAA ground like this. Thats my honest opinion.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'm merely giving mine.

War dead are regularly described as fallen. These men were involved in a war. Their titles were "Vols". That's who they were. They were members of their club. They laid down their lives for a cause shared by most/all of the people in the club that erected the monument and they are men who's sacrifice is revered in the area. Other Volunteers from the area are not included on this memorial because it's a memorial from the club to their own members. It's their business.

Yes it is their business for sure but I dont think they are doing a good job reaching out to the other side of the conflict. Maybe they are not interested in doing that and before you mention the IFA etc, I wouldnt set foot in Windsor park for similar reasons.

[brokencrossbar1]

There is a simple matter of fact that 99.9999% of clubs in NI are coming exclusively from a geographical and demographic that is from a nationalist/republican majority. As a consequence there are clubs that will have had people involved who were members of the club as well as being members of a paramilitary organisation. No matter what happens people are going to be offended but the further away from the past the easier it is to forget.

I have no issues with unionists raising this as an issue. What I have an issue is the hand wringing from people in the 26 who have clubs named after hero's of Rising or the War of Independence, or the United Irishmen or the Fenian Rising or the 1848 rising, the reality is that whilst they had public support to a point there was never absolute support of any of these. Some were more popular than others but none were backed unequivocally. In 50 years time the Clonoe commemoration and similar will pass off without comment. The only thing that will heal this place is time.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?

No problem with it. It's up to the club. Just the Duppers jumping all over it as usual and therefore the GAA selectively kick up a fuss to it by trying to be do-gooders. Let Clonoe tear away.

[Baile Brigín 2]

Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?

If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.

I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.

Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.

Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.

And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?

This is pure whataboutery.

Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.

Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested

Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.

And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.

I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.

I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.

But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite

[Baile Brigín 2]

There is a simple matter of fact that 99.9999% of clubs in NI are coming exclusively from a geographical and demographic that is from a nationalist/republican majority. As a consequence there are clubs that will have had people involved who were members of the club as well as being members of a paramilitary organisation. No matter what happens people are going to be offended but the further away from the past the easier it is to forget.

I have no issues with unionists raising this as an issue. What I have an issue is the hand wringing from people in the 26 who have clubs named after hero's of Rising or the War of Independence, or the United Irishmen or the Fenian Rising or the 1848 rising, the reality is that whilst they had public support to a point there was never absolute support of any of these. Some were more popular than others but none were backed unequivocally. In 50 years time the Clonoe commemoration and similar will pass off without comment. The only thing that will heal this place is time.

But we don't have a dividid society that the GAA claim to, and take money to, be part of reconciliation and healing.

Nobody in the south will not play gaelic games over a clubs name. They will in the 6c.

[Tony Baloney]

What is peoples views on the commemoration in Clonoe?

No problem with it. It's up to the club. Just the Duppers jumping all over it as usual and therefore the GAA selectively kick up a fuss to it by trying to be do-gooders. Let Clonoe tear away.

With Stormont mothballed it doesn't matter at present, but ordinarily it's the sort of stuff that provides unionists with moral justification to withhold funding. It probably would have passed without much coverage but the attendance of MO'N obviously raised the profile.

[brokencrossbar1]

There is a simple matter of fact that 99.9999% of clubs in NI are coming exclusively from a geographical and demographic that is from a nationalist/republican majority. As a consequence there are clubs that will have had people involved who were members of the club as well as being members of a paramilitary organisation. No matter what happens people are going to be offended but the further away from the past the easier it is to forget.

I have no issues with unionists raising this as an issue. What I have an issue is the hand wringing from people in the 26 who have clubs named after hero's of Rising or the War of Independence, or the United Irishmen or the Fenian Rising or the 1848 rising, the reality is that whilst they had public support to a point there was never absolute support of any of these. Some were more popular than others but none were backed unequivocally. In 50 years time the Clonoe commemoration and similar will pass off without comment. The only thing that will heal this place is time.

But we don't have a dividid society that the GAA claim to, and take money to, be part of reconciliation and healing.

Nobody in the south will not play gaelic games over a clubs name. They will in the 6c.

Like all large conservative organisations the GAA will have not change incrementally over decades as opposed to years. Names won't change, memories of members won't go away. The demographics will change though. How many clubs in NI actually commemorate for members of the IRA etc?  Very few. It's just used a stick, particularly at times like this in the build up to elections. The majority of the clubs are simply interested in playing the games, promoting the language and music and just getting on. No different then in Balbriggan or wherever.

[Orior]

There is a simple matter of fact that 99.9999% of clubs in NI are coming exclusively from a geographical and demographic that is from a nationalist/republican majority. As a consequence there are clubs that will have had people involved who were members of the club as well as being members of a paramilitary organisation. No matter what happens people are going to be offended but the further away from the past the easier it is to forget.

I have no issues with unionists raising this as an issue. What I have an issue is the hand wringing from people in the 26 who have clubs named after hero's of Rising or the War of Independence, or the United Irishmen or the Fenian Rising or the 1848 rising, the reality is that whilst they had public support to a point there was never absolute support of any of these. Some were more popular than others but none were backed unequivocally. In 50 years time the Clonoe commemoration and similar will pass off without comment. The only thing that will heal this place is time.

But we don't have a dividid society that the GAA claim to, and take money to, be part of reconciliation and healing.

Nobody in the south will not play gaelic games over a clubs name. They will in the 6c.

Like all large conservative organisations the GAA will have not change incrementally over decades as opposed to years. Names won't change, memories of members won't go away. The demographics will change though. How many clubs in NI actually commemorate for members of the IRA etc?  Very few. It's just used a stick, particularly at times like this in the build up to elections. The majority of the clubs are simply interested in playing the games, promoting the language and music and just getting on. No different then in Balbriggan or wherever.

Correct.

There is only a small minority of loyalists who will play camogie, hurling, gaelic football or rounders. The rest want change but won't engage anyway. The occupied six soccer team might change their anthem but I still won't go watch them.

[imtommygunn]

Loyalists or unionists?

[Snapchap]

Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?

If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.

I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.

Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.

Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.

And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?

This is pure whataboutery.

Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.

Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested

Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.

And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.

I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.

I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.

But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite

Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens.  ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?

And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.

[Baile Brigín 2]

Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?

If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.

I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.

Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.

Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.

And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?

This is pure whataboutery.

Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.

Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested

Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.

And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.

I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.

I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.

But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite

Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens.  ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?

And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.

I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.

[Snapchap]

Are Republicans commemorating them or the GAA?

If you were familiar with the area, you'd be speedily reassured that it's both.

I never said it was wrong. I said there may be consequences.

Incorrect. You did not say there "may" be consequences. You said there should be consequences (and went as far as to explain that they should be financial ones). Which kinda is saying that it was wrong.

Poppy fascism is a huge problem, but it's state sanctioned, like it or not.

And? Erecting a memorial to Republican Volunteers isn't illegal in the state either. Yet you are saying the club "should be excluded from Stormont funding". So it's not about what is or is not state sanctioned. It's just you, giving your view, on what remembrances/commemorations should face punishment/sanction. As it stands, you are only applying that to this one commemoration for three IRA volunteers. Which is telling. So my question remains the same: Soccer clubs /teams in the north, including the north's own soccer team, wear poppy armbands and hold minutes silences for British war dead. This in spite of Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy etc. Should they too be stripped of Stormont funding, or should sanctions only exist for commemorations of Republicans?

This is pure whataboutery.

Any club that commemorates in this manner is clearly not cross community and should not be able to tap money for that purpose. It is not comparable with whether we like it or not is a national poppy mess.

Again. They can do what they want on their clubs ground, but give over with the headscratching over why themmuns aren't interested

Again, on one hand you are saying that you "never said the memorial was wrong", but on the other, are once again calling for the club to be punished for it.

And you might think, form the comfort of Balbriggan, that the Poppy debate is not a parallel. It's not enough to just clain it's not a parallel. Try to explain why it's not. For those in the north who endured the British Army, it's a perfectly valid parallel. And if you disagree then are you seriously suggesting that the poppy, especially in the north of Ireland, IS cross community? Of course it's not. It raises funds for retired soldiers like those who shot dead 14 civil rights protesters in Derry. Very telling that you excuse a sports body like the IFA for allowing such a political commemoration on their property, but only lambaste a republican memorial in a rural GAA club as being "not cross-community" and worthy of financial punishment. It's a level of hypocrisy that's just beyond the beyond.

I am saying they are entitled to put up anything they want but on the basis the GAA are claiming to be cross community they have crossed a line. We can't make statements like the GAA and militant Republicanism are the same thing and complain when unionists object.

I am not condoning poppies, but they aren't an IFA thing. They are a Broader British thing the IFA fall into. It's not an equivalence.

But if you are offended by poppies and support this unreservedly you are a hypocrite

Yes Poppies ARE a British thing. Kinda my point. Does promoting British War narrative strike you as a cross community action? Or is it only wrong when the GAA is seen to fail on the cross community front? You say you don't condone poppies but you are being entirely inconsistent because you are keen to excuse poppy campaigns purely on the basis that it's something backed by the British State -the same state that had an active policy of assassination of its own citizens.  ut sure tI suppose that was OK because it was state thing?

And as for saying its hypocritical to be offended by poppies and to support the Clonoe event. That's an odd position to take for you, considering you have spent your last few posts arguing that the reverse is somehow not hypocritical. There's nothing hypocritical in my position: if political commemorations are OK in soccer grounds, then they are OK on GAA grounds. And vice versa. So either you actively condemn both, or you condemn neither and just live with the ones you might nit like. That's what I'm doing. You are being hypocritical.

I am saying that like it or not poppies are an.official state war fetish. It's not the same as an individual club throwing up a monument and it's weak to suggest a real world equivalence.

That poppies are a British State fetishism is not one bit relevant. The issue is whether political commemorations should happen in sports grounds. You also claimed yourself that the issue with the Clonoe event is that it goes against a cross community ethos of the club. That poppies are a British state thing doesn't suddenly make them cross community. The IFA claim to be cross community, but they hold commemorations for the British War dead in Windsor Park. In the six counties the poppy is every but as contentious for nationalism as symbols or memorials to republican paramilitaries are to unionism. Thats just a matter of fact here. Maybe if you lived through the conflict, you wouldn't need that spelled out to you. So you dont get to decide that the poppy isnt contentious here, or decide that the discomfort/offence they cause to nationalists should be just acceptable because its a state symbol. So like I say, it's as simple as this: either all sporting grounds should be free from contentious political symbols/events, or none have to be. Picking and choosing is just politically motivated bias.