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government grants to GAA players

So the taxpayer pays for this. Is this correct, if so rather see it go on health
Also this is a govt grant. which the govt can stop paying at anytime in the way they cut funding to other organizations/depts ??
ie tax take was low this year so we're cutting the funding to the players grant scheme by 50%

Bottom line for me , it's b*ll*x.  If its pay per how far you get most players will recive arround 2K. 2K?? all thi sshite for 2k

Quote from: squareballz on March 18, 2008, 02:23:09 PM
government grants to GAA players

So the taxpayer pays for this. Is this correct, if so rather see it go on health
Also this is a govt grant. which the govt can stop paying at anytime in the way they cut funding to other organizations/depts ??
ie tax take was low this year so we're cutting the funding to the players grant scheme by 50%

Bottom line for me , it's b*ll*x.  If its pay per how far you get most players will recive arround 2K. 2K?? all thi sshite for 2k

Its a miniscule drop in the ocean. It won't feature in any cutbacks, because it wouldnt make a difference. The "worst" that could happen would be a freeze. If they did stop it, it would go to other sporting causes, not to health.

You're right that 2k is a pittance. Still it'd make a nice little bonus for the players, and it would sicken the hole of many people to see theses "primadonnas" getting a few bucks. It sickens many of them as it is to see them getting free gear, free meals...

QuoteIt sickens many of them as it is to see them getting free gear, free meals...

If you believe that you're seriously delusional. I don't know one person who begrudges intercounty players meals after games/training or proper gear. C'mon Hound - thats poor. you're better than that.

From rte.ie/news just now ... and still not a dickybird on gaa.ie :(


GAA officially approve grant scheme
Tuesday, 18 March 2008 14:07

The Central Council have today approved the rewarding of government grants to GAA players.

A National Scheme committee will be established to see over the grants, which will be made available to senior inter-county footballers and hurlers.

The total of €3.5 million will be divided out to players, where they're expected to receive between €1,400-€2,500 each depending on performance in the Championship.

Players will be entitled to claim a refund of elligible expenses in same way they currently claim from the county committee.

The Gaelic Player's Association today welcome the announcement and in a statement said: '(We) welcome the decision taken by Central Council today to ratify the Agreement on Government-funded Performance and Support Schemes for inter-county players.

'The GPA reiterates its commitment to the maintenance of the GAA's amateur status and acknowledges that the Schemes do not undermine that status.

'The GPA would like to thank Central Council delegates for their support of the Agreement and senior GAA officials for their contribution to the final document.'

That it so? GPA are finished with the Grant Scheme and payment to players?

am I correct in saying that there has to be a vote from the delegates at the next GAA AGM ?

The GAA central committee are ensuring that the decision to stop this grant is not coming from them, and ensuring that the gpa dont have grounds to then stir up a strike because the bad old GAA council shot them down.


No, but when the county delegates vote shoots it down the gpa wont have a leg to stand on.

Thats what I suspect will happen.

then again maybe the grassroots want the grants for players after all.
We shall see.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2008, 04:09:33 PM
am I correct in saying that there has to be a vote from the delegates at the next GAA AGM ?

In short yes and I assume that there is some sort of a motion to this effect on the clar for the congress next month.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2008, 04:09:33 PM
am I correct in saying that there has to be a vote from the delegates at the next GAA AGM ?

The GAA central committee are ensuring that the decision to stop this grant is not coming from them, and ensuring that the gpa dont have grounds to then stir up a strike because the bad old GAA council shot them down.


No, but when the county delegates vote shoots it down the gpa wont have a leg to stand on.

Thats what I suspect will happen.

then again maybe the grassroots want the grants for players after all.
We shall see.

County delegates won't vote this down cos Croke Park will tell them to vote for the motion from Central Council.

And the grassroots will never be asked their opinion on this.

Am I alone in thinking that other sports organisations are waiting in the long grass for the grants to come on stream before submitting their own claims? I can't see any of them reacting too well to being told that they aren't as culturally significant as the GAA is

Got this from the GAA today

ANNUAL TEAM PERFORMANCE SCHEME AND ANNUAL SUPPORT SCHEME FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF EXCELLENCE
IN THE INDIGENOUS SPORTS OF HURLING AND GAELIC FOOTBALL

1.   Introduction

The Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism has provided the funds to allow the Irish Sports Council to introduce the schemes ("the Schemes"), details of which are set out below to recognise the outstanding contribution of Gaelic inter-county players to our indigenous sport, to meet additional costs associated with elite team performance and to encourage aspiring teams and players to reach the highest levels of sporting endeavour.

2.   Rationale

Gaelic senior inter-county players provide the window through which our national games are viewed nationally and internationally.  It is recognised that successful teams prepare and train to highest international standards for team sports.  It is also recognised that the current scheme of tax relief for professional sports people does not apply to Gaelic players because of their amateur status.  The Schemes will be based on participation in the GAA All-Ireland football championship and the GAA All-Ireland hurling championship ("the Championships").

3.   Definitions

For the purposes of the Schemes:-

Central Council   Means the Central Council of the GAA.
Championship Season   Means in relation to an inter-county team the period commencing 1 May and ending on the date that the team ceases to participate in the Championships.
Eligible Expenses   Means vouched expenses (including but not limited to  appropriate mileage expenses) incurred by a player in a Relevant Year in the course of compliance by him with the requirements of paragraph 7.2 (Conditions applicable to players personally). 
However, such expenses must be in accordance with the standard rates in respect of such expenses as are from time to time approved by Central Council. 
Eligible Expenses do not include expenses to the extent that those expenses have already been reimbursed or discharged by the County Committee.  However, where an expense has partly been discharged by the County Committee, the balance of that expense may be included in Eligible Expenses.
Maximum Refund   Has the meaning given in paragraph 8.4 (Refund of Eligible Expenses).
National Scheme Committee   Means the National Scheme Committee referred to in paragraph 9.1
Panel   Means in relation to an inter-county team participating in a Championship the players from time to time on the Panel of players recognised by the Team Committee as being the players from which the team is chosen, and may include injured players retained on that Panel.
Reference Amount   Means in relation to a player the amount set out in the second column of Schedule 1 opposite the performance position achieved by his Panel as set out in the first column.
Relevant Year   Means the period commencing 1 January of the relevant Championship Season and ending at the end of the Championship Season.
Refund Amount   Has the meaning given in paragraph 8.2 (Refund Amount).
Scheme Points   Means the number of points allocated in accordance with paragraph 8.3 (Scheme Points) to a player for the purpose of calculating his share of the Total Panel Amount appropriate to his team set out in Schedule 1.
Team Committee    Means in relation to an inter-county team, the County Panels Finance Sub-Committee or such other body or person as is from time to time designated by the National Scheme Committee in relation to that team. 
Team Development Account   Has the meaning given in paragraph 10 (Team Development Account).
Total Panel Amount    Means in relation to a Panel the amount set out in the third column of Schedule 1opposite the performance position achieved by the Panel as set out in the first column.

4.   The Schemes

4.1.   Annual Team Performance Scheme

The Annual Team Performance Scheme will be based on the performance of teams during the Championships and will apply to the twelve GAA football teams qualifying for the third round of the All Ireland Qualifier Series or reaching a provincial final and the twelve hurling teams participating in the McCarthy Cup.

4.2.   Annual Support Scheme for the development of excellence

The Annual Support Scheme for the development of excellence will be based on the achievement of standards and performance based criteria designed to raise/maintain the levels of preparation of the teams and individuals.  This Scheme shall apply to teams participating in the Championships, but not qualifying for the Team Performance Scheme. 

5.   Funding

An amount of €3.5m will be provided in 2008 to fund the Schemes.  The amount required to fund the Schemes in subsequent years shall be determined by the Minister.  The Irish Sports Council shall transfer that amount to Central Council for the account of the National Scheme Committee following the furnishing of such accounts and supporting documentation as the Irish Sports Council shall require. 

6.   Development Plans

The GAA will publish a template of a development plan to be adopted by each Team Committee in relation to each of the county's Championship teams following the approval of that template by the National Scheme Committee.  That template will include amongst other items the following:-

6.1.   key performance indicators for the team.  These indicators will include Panel  targets and objectives;

6.2.   formulation of an appropriate training regime for the Panel ;

6.3.   provision of comprehensive information and advice on the anti-doping code;

6.4.   provision as appropriate of qualified personnel to enhance player/team development including advice and support in all aspects of team and individual fitness, nutrition, health and wellbeing associated with the playing of the games;

6.5.   presence of certified medical personnel at all inter-county games;

6.6.   regular fitness testing of players;

6.7.   setting of minimum requirements in respect of injured players to demonstrate that they are participating satisfactorily in rehabilitation;

6.8.   participation by players in coaching and games development work in the county on a voluntary basis and in initiatives at county and national level to promote their sports as a healthy activity for all ages;

6.9.   establishment of a code of conduct to which all players and team management are required to adhere;

6.10.   acceptance by the Team Committee and the team management of the charter for inter-county teams to be published by the GAA and as amended from time to time;

6.11.   establishment of a system to take account of players joining or departing from the Panel.

7.   Conditions of eligibility for participation in the Schemes

A player shall not be entitled to participate in the Schemes unless his team is one of the teams to which the Schemes apply and the conditions set out below applicable to his team and to the player personally have been fulfilled. 

7.1.   Conditions applicable to the team

7.1.1.   The Team Committee has adopted a development plan in accordance with the template and has submitted that plan to the National Scheme Committee in accordance with such procedures and timetable as are specified by the National Scheme Committee from time to time.

7.1.2.   The Team Committee furnishes such evidence as is, from time to time, required by the National Scheme Committee to demonstrate compliance with the development plan.

7.2.   Conditions applicable to players personally

The Team Committee and/or the player concerned (as required by the National Scheme Committee) makes such returns and furnishes such evidence as is, from time to time, specified by the National Scheme Committee to demonstrate compliance by the player concerned with the following requirements:-

7.2.1.   attendance at at least 80% of all training sessions and matches of the team in the Championship Season;

Where a player is injured and is excused by the team management from attendance, the minimum attendance will be 80% of all training sessions and matches other than those for which the player has been excused.

7.2.2.   demonstrating in accordance with the development plan of improvement in fitness through regular testing;

7.2.3.   strict compliance with the anti-doping code;

7.2.4.   in the case of injured players, demonstrating in accordance with the development plan that the player is participating satisfactorily in rehabilitation; 

7.2.5.   commitment to participate in coaching and games development work in his county on a voluntary basis;

7.2.6.   in cooperation with the Local Sports Partnerships,  a commitment to visit schools and youth facilities as part of an overall policy to promote increased participation in his sport;

7.2.7.   involvement as is from time to time reasonably required in initiatives at county and national level to promote his sport as a healthy activity for all ages.



8.   Refund of Eligible Expenses

8.1.   Basis of Schemes

The Schemes will operate by way of refund of Eligible Expenses in accordance with the provisions set out below and by way of  the payment to the Team Development Fund in accordance with clause 10 (Team Development Fund).  The structure of the Schemes recognises that the longer a player's team is involved in the Championship, the greater the expenses that will be incurred by the player.  Although the total of funding available to a team is calculated by reference to 30 players per Panel, it is recognised that there may be more than 30 players per Panel and that there may be players whose participation on the Panel is only for part of a Championship Season. 

8.2.   Refund Amount

A player shall be entitled to a refund of Eligible Expenses (his "Refund Amount") up to the lesser of his Reference Amount and his Maximum Refund.

8.3.   Scheme Points

A player will be credited with 100 Schemes Points if he has been on the Panel for the entirety of the Championship Season.  Where a player has been on the Panel for part only of the Championship Season, he shall be entitled to 20 Scheme Points for each one fifth part of the Championship Season that he has been on the Panel, rounded up to the nearest fifth part.

8.4.   Maximum Refund

The Maximum Refund to which a player is entitled is that part of the relevant Total Panel Amount that is in the same proportion that his Scheme Points bear to the total Scheme Points of his Panel. 

8.5.   Dual players

A player who is on the Panel of both the hurling and football teams of his county shall elect, prior to making an application for a refund of Eligible Expenses in respect of a year under the Schemes, the team in respect of which he intends to make an application.  For the purpose of this Scheme, the player shall be deemed not to have been part of the Panel of the other team.  In no circumstances may a player claim a refund of expenses in relation to two Panels.

8.6.   Unclaimed Expenses

In the event that a player or players do not claim the refund of Eligible Expenses up to the Refund Amount, either in whole or in part, the amount not so claimed shall be dealt with in accordance with paragraph 10 (Team Development Account) and shall not be added to the amount claimable by the other members of the Panel calculated in accordance with paragraph 8.4 (Maximum Refund).

8.7.   Total Panel Amount

In no circumstances shall the amount of Eligible Expenses refunded under the Schemes to a Panel exceed the Total Panel Amount of  that Panel as set out in Schedule 1.

9.   Administration of the Schemes

9.1.   National Scheme Committee

The National Scheme Committee will comprise three nominees of Central Council, one of whom shall be the chairperson, and two nominees of the GPA.  The National Scheme Committee shall regulate their meetings as they see fit.  The quorum for the transaction of business shall be three, one of whom shall be a nominee of the GPA and one of whom shall be a nominee of Central Council.  The National Scheme Committee may have meetings by telephone, either by conference telephone connections or by a series of telephone conversations, or by exchange of facsimile or email transmissions and addressed to the chairman.  The views of the National Scheme Committee, as ascertained by such telephone conversations or facsimile or email transmissions, and communicated to the chairman, shall be treated as votes in favour of or against a particular resolution.  A resolution passed at any meeting held in this manner and signed by the chairman shall be as valid and effectual as if it had been passed at a meeting of the National Scheme Committee duly convened and held.

9.2.   Procedures

The National Scheme Committee shall be responsible for the administration of the Schemes and shall determine from time to time the procedures and regulations to be followed in connection with the making and processing of applications for refunds under the Schemes and in connection with the establishment of Team Development Accounts, the application of the funds paid to Team Development Accounts under the Schemes and the administration of the Schemes generally.


10.   Team Development Account

10.1.   Approval of Team Development Account

In relation to each Panel, the Team Development Fund shall be such account of the Team Committee as is from time to time approved by the National Scheme Committee, subject to such conditions, regulations and procedures as may from time to time be set out by the National Scheme Committee in relation to any such Team Development Account.

10.2.   Payments to Team Development Fund

To the extent that the Total Panel Amount in respect of a Panel has not been claimed by players on the Panel,(being a Panel  to which the Schemes apply and in respect of which the provisions of paragraph 7.1 (Conditions Applicable to the Team) have been fulfilled) has not been claimed by Players on that Panel, the balance shall be paid to by the National Scheme Committee to the Team Development Account .

10.3.   Implementation of Development Plan

The funds paid under the Schemes to a Team Development Account shall be applied in implementation of the relevant development plan submitted pursuant to clause 7.1 (Conditions applicable to the Team).  The Team Committee shall account to the National Scheme Committee in relation to the application of the funds under the Schemes paid to the Team Development Account in such manner as is reasonably required from time to time by the National Scheme Committee.

11.   Miscellaneous Provisions

11.1.   Schemes additional to existing funding

The Schemes are additional to and will not negatively impact upon existing funding or any future funding provided by the Government to the GAA through the Irish Sports Council or otherwise.

11.2.   Amateur status of GAA not affected

Nothing in the Schemes is intended to or shall be implemented so as to undermine that amateur status or to be in conflict with rule 11 of the Official Guide of the GAA.

11.3.   Acknowledgements of GPA

The GPA has acknowledged that:-

11.3.1.   the refund of expenses as contemplated by  the Schemes shall only apply for so long as government funding is made available for that purpose,  will cease when and if Government funding ceases, that there is no responsibility  on the GAA to continue funding  the Schemes  in that event  and that no such request will be made by the GPA;

11.3.2.   it recognizes that the GAA is an amateur association and their absolute commitment to the maintenance of the amateur status of the GAA and that nothing in the Schemes is intended to or shall be implemented so as to undermine that amateur status or to be in conflict with rule 11 of the Official Guide of the GAA.

11.4.   Tax liability

The Schemes are intended to reimburse vouched expenses only to the extent that such reimbursement does not give rise to a liability to tax.  However each player shall account to the Revenue Commissioners for any taxation payable in respect of the sums payable to him pursuant to the Schemes and shall make such returns in relation to such payments as are required by law.

11.5.   Player welfare

This Scheme does not affect the responsibility of the GAA for the welfare of its players.

11.6.   Independent review

The Schemes shall be subject to independent review every three years to be carried out under the aegis of Irish Sports Council.  Arising from that review, the Minister may revoke or alter one or more of the Schemes in such manner as the Minister considers appropriate. 

11.7.   Entitlement to vary Schemes

The Minister may alter the terms of the Schemes from time to time.

12.   Dispute resolution

In the event of any dispute or difference as to any entitlement under these Schemes, that dispute or difference shall be submitted to the National Scheme Committee for determination.  Unless any party to that dispute gives notice of appeal of the determination of the National Scheme Committee within 10 days of the National Scheme Committee notifying its decision to the parties concerned, the decision of the National Scheme Committee shall be final and binding on all parties. 

If notice of such appeal is given within the time referred to above, the matter shall be finally determined by an appeal committee comprised of one person nominated by Central Council, one person nominated by the GPA and one independent person appointed by agreement between the nominees of Central Council and of the GPA.  The Appeal Committee shall make the determination by a majority vote, shall regulate the proceedings as it sees fit and its determination shall be final and binding upon the parties.  The Appeal Committee shall act as experts and not as arbitrators.  The Appeal Committee shall be entitled to determine in what proportion the costs and expenses incurred by the Appeal Committee shall be borne by the parties to the appeal.





DATE:      ____________________________

SCHEDULE 1

REFERENCE AMOUNTS AND TOTAL PANEL AMOUNTS

      
Annual Team Performance Awards   
Performance Position   Reference Amount
€   Total Panel  Amount
€
All-Ireland SFC      
Finalists   2,500   75,000
Semi-Finalists   2,300   69,009
Quarter-Finalists   2,100   63,000
Qualifiers Round 3   2,000   60,000
      
All-Ireland SHC      
Finalists   2,500   75,000
Semi-Finalists   2,300   69,000
Quarter-Finalists   2,100   63,000
Phase 4   2,000   60,000
Phase 2/3   1,900   57,000
      
Annual Grant for the Development of Excellence in the Indigenous
Sports of Hurling and Gaelic Football
Performance Position   Grant Amount
€   Total Panel  Amount
Tier 1 - All-Ireland SFC      
Qualifiers Round 2   1,800   54,000
Qualifiers Round 1   1,700   51,000
      
Tier 2 - Tommy Murphy Cup SF   
Finalists   1,700   51,000
All Other Participants   1,550   46,500
      
Tier 2 - Christy Ring Cup SH   
Finalists   1,700   51,000
All Other Participants   1,550   46,500
      
Tier 3 - Nicky Rackard Cup SH   
Finalists   1,500   45,000
All Other Participants   1,400   42,000

Quote from: laoisgaa on March 18, 2008, 11:25:07 PM

11.4.   Tax liability

The Schemes are intended to reimburse vouched expenses only to the extent that such reimbursement does not give rise to a liability to tax. 

Erm, how exactly is that going to be done?

I had thought the original idea of the grant was that it was a grant, not reimbursement of expenses which are already being reimbursed.

We (the GAA) have made a real mess of this  ::)

This could be red to mean that the grant is replacing expenses already being paid by the County Boards.  Presumably expenses now being paid have to be vouched or have the circumstances underwhich expenses are payable been widened?

A Cork Co. Board could play puck with this.

The county boards already pay the players' expenses. Now the GAA centrally is going to pay (from funds provided by the taxpayer) the players' "expenses". Does this mean that the county boards will no longer be funding the expenses? Or are we talking about other "expenses" and are the players going to be paid both sets of expenses from different sources? What are these other "expenses" that weren't being paid by the county boards? How can any player come up with a new set of vouched expenses additional to the expenses he already receives? If they're not new, why wasn't he claiming them from the county board heretofore? What will be the taxman's view of these newly discovered "expenses"? And if these are legitimate expenses, why did the GPA campaign for "grants" to be paid to inter-county players instead of concentrating on the much simpler expedient of working to ensure that their members were being paid their full and legitimate expenses by the county boards?

Can we stop this cute hoor nonsense now and quit the disedifying manoeuvring and squirming by the presidency and the executive in an effort to cover up their incompetence and weakness in being bullied by the GPA and their arrogance in trying to push this through without reference to the membership?

I'm interested - are players based outside the 26 counties seriously going to get money from this?  Were I a taxpayer in the south, I'd be concerned that my tax was going towards paying someone who probably pays tax in another jurisdiction and does not contribute to the coffers.

Can we stop this cute hoor nonsense now and quit the disedifying manoeuvring and squirming by the presidency and the executive in an effort to cover up their incompetence and weakness in being bullied by the GPA and their arrogance in trying to push this through without reference to the membership?


That's typical of the GAA - They do SO much well and then usually go and make a balls of it ! This is yet another example of how the hiearchy think that we'll just go along with it - they insult us by their twisting and double speak ! It's such a shame.

Quote from: Rois on March 19, 2008, 09:56:42 AM
I'm interested - are players based outside the 26 counties seriously going to get money from this?  Were I a taxpayer in the south, I'd be concerned that my tax was going towards paying someone who probably pays tax in another jurisdiction and does not contribute to the coffers.

I believe players in Northern Ireland and Britain (London) will get the same 'expenses'.

However, Rois, you forget that we in the GAA do not recognise the border, and we treat ye as one of us :D

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 19, 2008, 10:15:50 AM

However, Rois, you forget that we in the GAA do not recognise the border, and we treat ye as one of us :D

Oh no, I know that the GAA doesn't recognise the border (and rightly so IMO!) but as these grants won't be paid to the GAA and then over, but to individual players, to me it seems more like the government isn't recognising the border.  Just thought it might get up the noses of non-GAA members in the south.

Quote from: Rois on March 19, 2008, 01:39:10 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 19, 2008, 10:15:50 AM

However, Rois, you forget that we in the GAA do not recognise the border, and we treat ye as one of us :D

Oh no, I know that the GAA doesn't recognise the border (and rightly so IMO!) but as these grants won't be paid to the GAA and then over, but to individual players, to me it seems more like the government isn't recognising the border.  Just thought it might get up the noses of non-GAA members in the south.

As Mick Galwey said on Mon night, f**k Em!  :D

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2008, 09:47:46 AM
The county boards already pay the players' expenses. Now the GAA centrally is going to pay (from funds provided by the taxpayer) the players' "expenses". Does this mean that the county boards will no longer be funding the expenses? Or are we talking about other "expenses" and are the players going to be paid both sets of expenses from different sources? What are these other "expenses" that weren't being paid by the county boards? How can any player come up with a new set of vouched expenses additional to the expenses he already receives? If they're not new, why wasn't he claiming them from the county board heretofore? What will be the taxman's view of these newly discovered "expenses"? And if these are legitimate expenses, why did the GPA campaign for "grants" to be paid to inter-county players instead of concentrating on the much simpler expedient of working to ensure that their members were being paid their full and legitimate expenses by the county boards?

Can we stop this cute hoor nonsense now and quit the disedifying manoeuvring and squirming by the presidency and the executive in an effort to cover up their incompetence and weakness in being bullied by the GPA and their arrogance in trying to push this through without reference to the membership?

(http://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/liverpool/handshake.gif)

Rois -

The document does not say who will pay the money to the players. A committee with three nominees from central council and two nominees from the GPA will be set up which will then "be responsible for the administration of the Schemes and shall determine from time to time the procedures and regulations to be followed in connection with the making and processing of applications for refunds."

I still think that it will come down finance committee's within each county board to part with the cheque so to speak.

The irish news is saying today that the new scheme replaces the current expenses paid out by county bords and will save the GAA 3.5 million in team expenses. It also says that the mileage rate goes up to the same as a civil servant from 0.50 to Euro 1.20 per mile. However it makes a point of saying that players with cars do well while those without will not be much better off. If this does end up as an improved mileage scheme and players having to provide evidence before claiming any expenses then I think it is fair enough and a million miles from pay per play or a no questions asked grant scheme.

Quote from: slow corner back on March 19, 2008, 04:21:52 PM
The irish news is saying today that the new scheme replaces the current expenses paid out by county bords and will save the GAA 3.5 million in team expenses. It also says that the mileage rate goes up to the same as a civil servant from 0.50 to Euro 1.20 per mile. However it makes a point of saying that players with cars do well while those without will not be much better off. If this does end up as an improved mileage scheme and players having to provide evidence before claiming any expenses then I think it is fair enough and a million miles from pay per play or a no questions asked grant scheme.

I'm afraid Paddy Heaney picked up the wrong end of the stick. County players will still get expenses of 50c per mile from the county board.

Otherwise there would be players who are worse off from the  arrangement as some players would have expenses of way over 1700 euro mark - some double it.

In that case if the players are not picking up mileage expenses what expenses are they picking up?

Quote from: slow corner back on March 19, 2008, 04:47:44 PM
In that case if the players are not picking up mileage expenses what expenses are they picking up?

The 64 million dollar question! As far as I know they can claim the difference between the GAA mileage rate and that of the civil service as well as other legitimate expenses.

The document which was released states that eligible expenses were  "vouched expenses (including but not limited to  appropriate mileage expenses) incurred by a player in a Relevant Year."

The initial document released last April had a list of what they could claim for, but that is nor present in this document. The answer to your question is that no-body knows what these other expenses are.

It would be a bit of a joke if after all this time and discussion the GAA turned around and said you can only claim expenses if you own a car. The GPA would go up the walls. I doubt these other legitimate expenses will ever be made public though. For one reason I don't know if anyone i Croke Park really knows what they are!

Quote from: believebelive on March 19, 2008, 04:56:39 PM

Quote from: slow corner back on March 19, 2008, 04:47:44 PM
In that case if the players are not picking up mileage expenses what expenses are they picking up?

The 64 million dollar question! As far as I know they can claim the difference between the GAA mileage rate and that of the civil service as well as other legitimate expenses.

The document which was released states that eligible expenses were  "vouched expenses (including but not limited to  appropriate mileage expenses) incurred by a player in a Relevant Year."

The initial document released last April had a list of what they could claim for, but that is nor present in this document. The answer to your question is that no-body knows what these other expenses are.

It would be a bit of a joke if after all this time and discussion the GAA turned around and said you can only claim expenses if you own a car. The GPA would go up the walls. I doubt these other legitimate expenses will ever be made public though. For one reason I don't know if anyone i Croke Park really knows what they are!

Well said.

Its seems many contributors can't get their head around the fact that the GAA pay well under the going rate for mileage, so there is a lot of room for manouvre to get it up to the civil service rates.

But there certainly is a quesionmark over what the other eligible expenses might be, for those who don't have a car.  Or those who have sponsored cars of which I'm sure there are quite a few.

Quote from: Hound on March 20, 2008, 07:37:24 AM

Its seems many contributors can't get their head around the fact that the GAA pay well under the going rate for mileage, so there is a lot of room for manouvre to get it up to the civil service rates.

But is this really the case for most players? I'm not so sure. Certainly not if the rules governing Civil Service rates are applied strictly to players, in accordance with the Revenue Commissioners' rules.

Players at the moment get 50 cent per mile, or 31.25 cent per km.

As I said in a previous thread...

Current Civil Service rates are as follows:

Up to 6,437km -  52.16 -  78.32 cent per km
Over 6,438km   - 26.97  - 36.65 cent per km
(source Revenue.ie IT51)

They are quite generous for the first 6,437km or 4,000 miles but a lot less so thereafter.

They also DON'T apply:
- where the person has use of a company car or van from their employer
- to travel to and from home
"Where an employee proceeds on a business journey directly from home to a temporary
place of work (rather than commencing that business journey from his/her normal
place of work) or returns home directly, the business kilometres should be calculated by
reference to the lesser of -
- The distance between home and the temporary place of work or
- The distance between the normal place of work and the temporary place of work."

Quote
But there certainly is a quesionmark over  ....  those who have sponsored cars of which I'm sure there are quite a few.

See above

Quote from: Hound on March 20, 2008, 07:37:24 AM
Or those who have sponsored cars of which I'm sure there are quite a few.

Out of aproximately 2000 intercounty players, how many do you reckon are driving sponsored cars?

It would be very sweet indeed if the only players not to benefit from the new Expenses Scheme are the few guys at the top of the GPA who are each driving sponsored cars!

Quote from: Uladh on March 20, 2008, 10:33:45 AM

Quote from: Hound on March 20, 2008, 07:37:24 AM
Or those who have sponsored cars of which I'm sure there are quite a few.

Out of aproximately 2000 intercounty players, how many do you reckon are driving sponsored cars?

Wild guess - 20.

Hmmm. I'd say a wild guess would be more like 40.

How many in Offaly az?

I know there used to be at least 3. I couldn't tell you at the moment.

DRA fail to make decision on Government grants case
By Cóilín Duffy

After almost seven hours of talks between the Anti Government Grants movement and the Central Council in Dublin last night, a decision has yet to be announced by the DRA on the issue.

Almost a week after Central Council had sought and earned a postponement of the hearing after the unavailability of new GAA Ard Stiurthoir Paraic Duffy, an agreement has still to be brokered between the parties.

A war of words had developed midweek after GAA PRO Danny Lynch, hit out at the 'Anti-Grants campaigners' saying that "it's extraordinary that an organisation or group of people like 'Of One Belief' would question the integrity of Central Council."

The meeting began late at 7.30pm but with plenty to discuss, only the 'Of One Belief' case had been heard when the sides broke for recess around 10pm at the Radisson Hotel at Dublin Airport.

Both parties and the DRA left the hotel close to 2am without a decision being released, and it is likely that the DRA will make their findings public on Monday or Tuesday of next week, with just days to go before GAA Congress 2008, which begins on Friday in Rosses Point, Co. Sligo.

Motions from Central Council, the Derry County Board and Derry club Faughanvale are among those on the agenda in relation to the Government Grants issue

Anyone confirm that Armagh voted against the proposal last night.

Anti-grants motion defeated in capital
08 April 2008


A motion by the St. Joseph's O'Connell Boys club opposing the player grants scheme was comfortably defeated at Monday night's meeting of the Dublin county board.

Having deferred a decision on the matter at last month's meeting, delegates finally heard the case against the proposed scheme, but only 12 voted for the motion which was easily defeated. Had the motion being successful, it would have caused serious embarrassment for GPA chief executive Dessie Farrell who soldiered with the Dubs over many years.

Meanwhile, Mark Conway of the 'Of One Belief' anti-grants lobby has said he is prepared to accept the Disputes Resolution Authority's judgement on their challenge to the legality of the scheme - regardless of the outcome.

The DRA met for six hours last Friday and are expected to make their findings known sometime on Tuesday.

"I'm only speaking in a personal capacity but whatever the judgement is, good or bad from our perspective, I'll accept it. I'm not speaking for everyone, though."

For a case that according to its proponents is cut & dried and legally watertight, its amazing that the DRA needed the guts of six hours to examine it.  :o

Donegal apparently voting against too.

Some of the big Dublin clubs have been paying for players so long that this scheme is nothing new to them.  :(

DRA rule in favour of grants

By Cóilín Duffy

The GAA's Dispute's Resolution Authority tonight released a decision on the 'Of One Belief' versus the Central Council Anti-grants issue, which saw all three parties meet for over six hours on Friday night last at the Radisson Hotel in Dublin Airport.

The DRA decided that the grants scheme is not in breach of Rule 11 which governs the GAA's amateur status.

"The Schemes may be a very good idea, and they may be a very bad one," the decision read.

"That is not the question that is appropriate for any Tribunal of the DRA to answer, and it is not before us in this arbitration. We are solely concerned with one question: whether the implementation of the Scheme in this form of itself generates a breach of Rule 11. Our answer to that is that it does not."

"Contrary to what is said on behalf of the Claimants, we may not assume that Central Council will use the Schemes in a manner that achieves a contravention of Rule 11.

"If it were the case that the DRA was excluded from a supervisory role, so that a breach of Rule 11 could go unremedied, that submission might be very persuasive indeed, but that vista does not arise," the statement read.

Understandably Mark Conway of the Of One Belief organisation was disappointed with the ruling.

"We didn't put all of this effort in for nothing," Conway said tonight.

"My reading of the judgement is that they are telling us that we have an honourable defeat here.

However in its interim ruling the DRA also commended the 'Of One Belief' group for their consistent and concerted argument.

"Although unsuccessful in the result, it is clear from the two sets of arbitration proceedings that the Claimants cannot be said to have failed in their endeavours. They have applied their resources in successive bona fide attempts to ensure that no inroads have been made on the amateur ethos, one of the most precious principles of the Association.

"In these and the earlier arbitration proceedings, they have tested every aspect of what was prepared by Central Council. While the bona fides of Central Council to ensure compliance with Rule 11 is not in doubt, the devil's advocate role of the Claimants cannot but have assisted in the multilateral effort that produced the finely-crafted document we have examined in the context of this arbitration."

However Conway was astonished by the DRA's praise despite the ruling going in the Central Council's favour.

"There are various places in it where they seem to pat us on the back," he said.

"That we took the case the right way and it was the proper thing to do and all of that but at the same time we are beaten.

"We didn't go down this road to be beaten because we thought we had a case that stood up but obviously the DRA don't agree with us. That's bitterly disappointing but life is full of disappointments and that's the way it is."

Despite this setback Conway and his colleagues are committed to stay campaigning on the issue right until Friday night with the focus now switching to the grants motions before GAA Congress in Sligo.

"It doesn't help our cause this weekend and if the DRA had come down in our favour that would have given us huge momentum," Conway said.

"At the same time as far as we are concerned the DRA's judgement doesn't change our stance. We thought we were right before we went to the DRA and that's why we went there. Just because they disagree with us, that doesn't change our view."

Meanwhile a decision on costs has yet to be determined.

>:(

Quote from: laoisgaa on April 08, 2008, 09:31:03 PM
"The Schemes may be a very good idea, and they may be a very bad one," the decision read.

Get off the fence. If it could be very bad, then why go for it?

Found it very hard to resist smashing the TV when Farrell appeared on this evening. Looks as though he has victory in his sights now.

Longford voted no on Monday night, AFAIK.

Quote from: LaurelEye on April 08, 2008, 10:18:54 PM
Longford voted no on Monday night, AFAIK.

At least youse got to have a vote. >:( >:( >:(

Vote in Longford was something like 24 to 9 agin the grants.

Quote from: Owenmoresider on April 08, 2008, 10:10:49 PM

Quote from: laoisgaa on April 08, 2008, 09:31:03 PM
"The Schemes may be a very good idea, and they may be a very bad one," the decision read.

Get off the fence. If it could be very bad, then why go for it?

What are ya talking about FFS???

Its irrelevant to the DRA whether its good or bad - thats up to the GAA - and rightly so. The DRA were just ruling on whether it infringed the rulebook.


I'm a bit confused over the reports of votes in various counties. Its been reported that each of Dublin, Donegal, Armagh and Longford all voted no. But in Dublin's case it is clear that it was no to an anti-grants motion, whereas Shamrock Shore seems to be indicating that in Longford's case it was no to a pro-grants motion??

Dublin voted yes according to the Indo yesterday or Monday.

Dublin voted against an anti grants motion so are in favour of the scheme. What's the postion in Cork? With all their votes they have a big influence in any vote.

I've always been against the grants but I'm still surprised that the DRA accepted a complaint from Of One Belief. They are not a constutuent member of the association. Would they consider and rule on a complaint from the FAI for example?

QuoteShamrock Shore seems to be indicating that in Longford's case it was no to a pro-grants motion

Yes - it was 'No' to the scheme. Whether it will have an impact at Congress I dunno. Motion will probably be ruled out of order on the day for not beng as Gaelige written on ancient vellum countersigned by St. Patrick, John F. Kennedy and The Easter Bunny.

Quote from: Sky Blue on April 09, 2008, 09:19:35 AM
Dublin voted against an anti grants motion so are in favour of the scheme. What's the postion in Cork? With all their votes they have a big influence in any vote.

I've always been against the grants but I'm still surprised that the DRA accepted a complaint from Of One Belief. They are not a constutuent member of the association. Would they consider and rule on a complaint from the FAI for example?

The action was not taken by Of One Belief so to speak - that's just a name. The action was taken by a number of GAA members all across Ireland (and the UK) who wished to try and oppose this through the GAA's own appeal mechanism. As such it was taken by member(s) of the association.

The action was officially taken by "MAIRC MAC CONMIDHE-agus-DAOINE EILE" (Mark Conway & others), ie members of the GAA.

The DRA's code states the following

QuoteArbitration Rule contained in Official Guide of the GAA

(a)   In the event of any dispute or difference between any member or unit of the Association with any other member or unit of the Association, as to the legality of any decision made or procedure used by any unit of the Association in pursuance of the Rules and Bye-Laws of the Association, which cannot be settled by amicable means within the Rules of the Association, such dispute may be referred by either party to Arbitration under the Disputes Resolution Code annexed to these Rules, as initially approved by Congress and from time to time amended by the Disputes Resolution Authority with the approval of Central Council.

As GAA members, Conway and his colleagues were fully entitled to take their case to the DRA.

Let me get this straight.

Mark Conway pronounces earlier in the week that

Quote from: Uladh on April 08, 2008, 04:18:22 PM
"I'm only speaking in a personal capacity but whatever the judgement is, good or bad from our perspective, I'll accept it. I'm not speaking for everyone, though."

The DRA, after careful consideration, rule the following:

Quote from: laoisgaa on April 08, 2008, 09:31:03 PM
We are solely concerned with one question: whether the implementation of the Scheme in this form of itself generates a breach of Rule 11. Our answer to that is that it does not."

"Contrary to what is said on behalf of the Claimants, we may not assume that Central Council will use the Schemes in a manner that achieves a contravention of Rule 11.

But now:

Quote from: laoisgaa on April 08, 2008, 09:31:03 PM
"As we are concerned the DRA's judgement doesn't change our stance. We thought we were right before we went to the DRA and that's why we went there. Just because they disagree with us, that doesn't change our view."

So now "Of one belief" (or is it now "Of two Beliefs"?) aren't opposed to the scheme because it contravenes rule 11 (as it patently does not), but for some other, as yet unrevealed reason?

I'd read that as they disagree with the judgement, as they obviously would, but they will accept it as per the earlier statement. I don't see the conflict there.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2008, 10:45:42 AM
I'd read that as they disagree with the judgement, as they obviously would, but they will accept it as per the earlier statement. I don't see the conflict there.

But their opposition to the scheme is because it contravenes rule 11. They were wrong, it does not. S why do they now oppose it?

I presume they disagree in that they still think it contravenes Rule 11, but will accept the DRA's ruling on the matter, even if it doesn't agree.

If I took a lawsuit against someone, and lost, I would still believe in my case, but would accept the ruling of the court. I would think it's a similar position.

Just to bring a little humour to proceedings here's the bould Dessie with another clinker:

(from Hoganstand.com)
Farrell hits out at media
09 April 2008


GPA chief executive Dessie Farrell has criticised the media for the amount of coverage they have given to the anti-grants movement.

Farrell suggested that the opponents to player welfare grants have "punched above their weight" in terms of the amount of media coverage they have received.
Speaking after the DRA ruled that the grants scheme is not in breach of the GAA's amateur status,

Farrell said: "I think it was media driven to be honest. Obviously they claimed to be representative of grassroots, which they're not.

"I'm a member of grassroots and I know thousands of others that are members of grassroots.

"Anyone who has taken a moment to think about it realises there are paltry sums of money involved. It's not about money - it's about the principle and the recognition of what inter-county players do.

"I think most people are very happy for this scheme to be implemented. Hopefully at Congress at the weekend, the decision will be taken and the scheme will be up-and-running for this year."



Irony is alive and well folks!

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 09, 2008, 10:59:36 AM
Just to bring a little humour to proceedings here's the bould Dessie with another clinker:

(from Hoganstand.com)
Farrell hits out at media
09 April 2008


GPA chief executive Dessie Farrell has criticised the media for the amount of coverage they have given to the anti-grants movement.

Farrell suggested that the opponents to player welfare grants have "punched above their weight" in terms of the amount of media coverage they have received.
Speaking after the DRA ruled that the grants scheme is not in breach of the GAA's amateur status,

Farrell said: "I think it was media driven to be honest. Obviously they claimed to be representative of grassroots, which they're not.

"I'm a member of grassroots and I know thousands of others that are members of grassroots.

"Anyone who has taken a moment to think about it realises there are paltry sums of money involved. It's not about money - it's about the principle and the recognition of what inter-county players do.

"I think most people are very happy for this scheme to be implemented. Hopefully at Congress at the weekend, the decision will be taken and the scheme will be up-and-running for this year."



Irony is alive and well folks!

Pure class !!!!!!! How much is Dessie on and how much of a pay rise is coming his way ?????    ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D

Every time someone talks about recognition of the dedication of inter-county players, or worse 'respect' for it, I get pissed off. These lads are idolised by thousands, and are heroes in their communities and throughout the country. I don't know of ONE person who does not recognise or respect inter county players and their dedication. The choice of words just annoys me, as if somehow we are all saying, 'sure they do nothing'.

Of course it's about money. I've already said numerous times that I don't have a major problem with players persuading the government that they are elite athletes and giving them grants, commensurate with other elite athletes, as such. My concern has always been about the principle of the GAA being involved, or worse, being seen as the body handing out the money. I think this is a dangerous can of worms that is about to be opened, for the association in the future. I am not against the players, and I am not refusing to acknowledge their quality, commitment or efforts.

The GPA still haven't worked out that they shouldn't let Dessie near a microphone. However, i do agree with one thing he says - "Of one or two Beliefs" does not represent the views of the grassroots.

AZ - i agree on your sentiments on the "respect" mantra. It makes me cringe every time i hear it. The issue is status. Intercounty players, whether we like it or not, are elevated above most other members of our association by our expectations and the excellence we demand they achieve. The GAA themselves regard them differently than the ordinary member even with the simple issue of subjecting them to drug testing.

The GPA, rightly in my opinion, feel they are on a par with other grant aided sportsmen or those awarded tax breaks in this country in terms of their contribution to the sporting fabric we enjoy and felt the government should recognise this. I will give them great credit for how they have negotiated with the government to provide a fund in the way that they have. i never thought that'd be achieved but fair dues.

The highest Arbitrator in our organisation has now ruled that this in no way interferes with the amateur status, so in my opinion everybody should be happy?

I don't think any body, anywhere, can say they represent the views of everybody. Grassroots, players, administrators or whomever. However, OOB certainly represented the views of a fair number of the 'grassroots', so they should be respected as such. They are all as much a member of the GAA as Dessie is. i think Dessie's been reading Orwell.

Quote from: Uladh on April 09, 2008, 10:44:03 AM
Mark Conway pronounces earlier in the week that

Quote from: Uladh on April 08, 2008, 04:18:22 PM
"I'm only speaking in a personal capacity but whatever the judgement is, good or bad from our perspective, I'll accept it. I'm not speaking for everyone, though."

Conway's quote was in the context of a question put to him as to whether he would take the case to the High Court if he lost at the DRA. When he said "whatever the judgement is, good or bad from our perspective, I'll accept it" he meant that he would not challenge the DRA decision at a higher level.

Source: Irish Independent yesterday.

Dessie doesn't claim to represent anyone beyond his membership.

There is no way of knowing even roughly who OOB represent, though thay regularly claim to represent grass roots.

i'm fast realising i don't know any grass roots members

of one belief represenet my view on the matter.

Well there are over 1,000 people who bothered to register with them, so they can at least purport to represent them. I didn't register with them, and they wouldn't be a million miles from my view, especially in relation to the way the money will be handed out.

As I said, it's inaccurate for any group anywhere to claim they represent everybody in a particular demographic, unless they are fully signed up members of the group. Human nature means that any large group of people will have contrasting opinions on everything. So you are correct, OOB should say they 'represent their members, who are part of the grassroots of the association'.

Dessie's claim about who he represents is not relevant in this instance, but he is correct in that he says he represents his members, not all players. I have no problem with that.

It's as simple as this :Although I would roughly support a lot of what he beleivesin, Mark Conway needs to catch himself on and realise that the GAA at county board, provinicial and national level do not give one fiddlers about the so called ordinary grassroots GAA member. Although the GAA is made up primarily of ordinary, hardworking volunteers, this ethos is no longer recognised, valued or respected at county board, provincial or national level. Ordinary club members are there to do the shite work, breed and nurture new talent to be sacrficed by clubs as soon as they are of any use to the county teams so their talent can be utilised by the higher echelons of the GAA.

It's sadly as simple as this.

And the president's job is to go round the clubs and counties, open new fields ( paid for by hardworking members at club level ) and tell us gobshites how much our work is valued and respected and how there'd be no GAA without us !!


FFS when are WE going to cop on ???

We're the ASSHOLES not Nicky Brennan et al !!

Of one belief represent my views also and many others that I know and have spoken to about this issue. The DRA report was quite interesting and OOB came out of the process with plenty of credit, if not that decision.

It seems as if this is going to be forced through regardless next weekend. So we'll have to like it or lump it by the looks of things. It is a dangerous road to go down I feel but time will tell.

Orangeman - well put.

With respect orangeman that is a completely different issue, though one i agree with you on.

This Dra hearing and the issue of the grants is ultimately dependent on its infringement of rule 11 or not.
Obviously it does not.

Nearly winning, filling the forms in correctly or having some mythical moral high ground is all beside the point.

This scheme was challenged on its legality within the GAA's amateur status and found to be legal.

The scaremongering and hyperbole which has accompanied the oob grouping since it's inception has done their cause no good whatsoever and i resent their continued claim to be representaive of "the grass roots".

Quote from: orangeman on April 09, 2008, 12:10:57 PM
the GAA at county board, provinicial and national level do not give one fiddlers about the so called ordinary grassroots GAA member. Although the GAA is made up primarily of ordinary, hardworking volunteers, this ethos is no longer recognised, valued or respected at county board, provincial or national level. Ordinary club members are there to do the shite work, breed and nurture new talent to be sacrficed by clubs as soon as they are of any use to the county teams so their talent can be utilised by the higher echelons of the GAA.

It's sadly as simple as this.

Woe is you.

I would have thought that a significant number of "grassroots" give up their time to their club because they enjoy it.  How that changes through players getting a few quid extra is beyond me - though I firmly believe the green-eyed monster is somewhere involved, and of course the general begrudgery that goes against those arrogant hoors who play intercounty.

Quote from: Uladh on April 09, 2008, 12:28:22 PM

With respect orangeman that is a completely different issue, though one i agree with you on.

This Dra hearing and the issue of the grants is ultimately dependent on its infringement of rule 11 or not.
Obviously it does not.

Nearly winning, filling the forms in correctly or having some mythical moral high ground is all beside the point.

This scheme was challenged on its legality within the GAA's amateur status and found to be legal.

The scaremongering and hyperbole which has accompanied the oob grouping since it's inception has done their cause no good whatsoever and i resent their continued claim to be representaive of "the grass roots".

thats exactly right and mark conway has said that he accepts the decision. he has made his point.

it is now up to congress to decide whether or not the grants scheme should come into effect.

i have made my feelings known on the subject and still cant help feeling that there has been an awful lot of underhand tactics employed by the gaa in this saga, its as if they tried to push the whole thing through without taking into account the wishes of all members - a dangerous precedent to set.

that said i feel conway et al have done a good job of forcing the gaa to take the opinion of all members into account. i will accept whatever decision comes from congress and get on with it.

i still think this is a very dangerous time for the gaa and can see the whole thing blowing up in dessie's face later down the line.

Quote from: Hound on April 09, 2008, 12:30:04 PM

Quote from: orangeman on April 09, 2008, 12:10:57 PM
the GAA at county board, provinicial and national level do not give one fiddlers about the so called ordinary grassroots GAA member. Although the GAA is made up primarily of ordinary, hardworking volunteers, this ethos is no longer recognised, valued or respected at county board, provincial or national level. Ordinary club members are there to do the shite work, breed and nurture new talent to be sacrficed by clubs as soon as they are of any use to the county teams so their talent can be utilised by the higher echelons of the GAA.

It's sadly as simple as this.

Woe is you.


I would have thought that a significant number of "grassroots" give up their time to their club because they enjoy it.  How that changes through players getting a few quid extra is beyond me - though I firmly believe the green-eyed monster is somewhere involved, and of course the general begrudgery that goes against those arrogant hoors who play intercounty.

Not at all Hound - we'll continue to volunteer unlike you but I for one can see through the GAA and their structures. The GAA if they decide to do something will do it in spite of what thier members say. The GAA pretends to be a democratic organisation - democratic my hole ! Democratic when it suits ! I'm not oppsoed to players getting expenses but ordinary club players are treated like shite by the GAA cos they're of no use to them cos they're not bringing in the big revenues !

QuoteI would have thought that a significant number of "grassroots" give up their time to their club because they enjoy it.

The same as county players giving up their time to train and play for the county.

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 09, 2008, 12:47:20 PM

QuoteI would have thought that a significant number of "grassroots" give up their time to their club because they enjoy it.

The same as county players giving up their time to train and play for the county.

Hound is trying the GAA's line of "you'se are great fellas giving up your time in order to volunteer because you love the association and the GAA wouldn't be the hugely powerful organisation that it is today without you ! " - By the way, for full effect you have to be able to say this in a Kilkenny accent !  ;) ;D

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 09, 2008, 12:47:20 PM

QuoteI would have thought that a significant number of "grassroots" give up their time to their club because they enjoy it.

The same as county players giving up their time to train and play for the county.

Yes Seanie, but if the government are offering to recognise those efforts by funding an increase their expenses then fair enough. the GAA of course are entitled o say "thanks but no thanks" and that is what congress is for. The GAA hierarchy have endorsed the government's initiative in principle. maybe they should be lobbying for similar recognition for other facets of our organisations?

Quote from: Uladh on April 09, 2008, 01:01:21 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 09, 2008, 12:47:20 PM

QuoteI would have thought that a significant number of "grassroots" give up their time to their club because they enjoy it.

The same as county players giving up their time to train and play for the county.

Yes Seanie, but if the government are offering to recognise those efforts by funding an increase their expenses then fair enough. the GAA of course are entitled o say "thanks but no thanks" and that is what congress is for. The GAA hierarchy have endorsed the government's initiative in principle. maybe they should be lobbying for similar recognition for other facets of our organisations?

Club players ?

How long will it take before club players will be paid?  My guess is as good as anyones.   What is to stop them getting generous expenses from their clubs.  I give it 10 years and 10 after that there'll be no GAA whatsoever but a poorly faring professional game.   I know the battle now is lost, and the decision will have to be observed, but let history remember and salute the bravery of those who opposed and may it not judge Uladh and the gang too harshly and call them w'''kers.   

:D

Quote from: feetofflames on April 09, 2008, 01:14:49 PM
How long will it take before club players will be paid?  My guess is as good as anyones.   What is to stop them getting generous expenses from their clubs.  I give it 10 years and 10 after that there'll be no GAA whatsoever but a poorly faring professional game.   I know the battle now is lost, and the decision will have to be observed, but let history remember and salute the bravery of those who opposed and may it not judge Uladh and the gang too harshly and call them w'''kers.   

I hope you're wrong but somehow I think you're right - the strong clubs will be those who can pay the big "expenses" and the poorer clubs will simply cease to exist. I predict in 10 years time that there willbe no where near the 50 odd clubs in Tyrone that there are now.  :(

You are on the button orangeman.  Ardboe Moortown, Coalisland, Clonoe Derytresk, Balinderry, Brocagh will all be one club called, Errigal Island.  Edendork, Killyman, Dungannon, Moy will be called Errigal Drumglass, and Donaghmore, Galbally, Killeeshill, Eglish and Pomeroy will be called Errigal Hamlets, Carrickmore, Killyclogher, Omagh and LoughmcCrory will be called Errigal Carmen and Errigal Ciaran should be alright though.   

Quote from: feetofflames on April 09, 2008, 01:37:32 PM
You are on the button orangeman.  Ardboe Moortown, Coalisland, Clonoe Derytresk, Balinderry, Brocagh will all be one club called, Errigal Island.  Edendork, Killyman, Dungannon, Moy will be called Errigal Drumglass, and Donaghmore, Galbally, Killeeshill, Eglish and Pomeroy will be called Errigal Hamlets, Carrickmore, Killyclogher, Omagh and LoughmcCrory will be called Errigal Carmen and Errigal Ciaran should be alright though.  

There's a fair chance then that Errigal will win the championship then ??  ;) ;)

QuoteYes Seanie, but if the government are offering to recognise those efforts by funding an increase their expenses then fair enough.

But that's not really what happened here. The Govt didn't wake up one morning and say - lets give intercounty GAA players "extra expenses". The GPA lobbied for a tax break or a financial substitute in line with what PROFESSIONAL sportspeople get. The Govt eventually agreed to put funds in place to make grants to intercounty players to recognise among other things their cultural contribution.

It just seems very gerrymandered to me at best and I have to say I do fear for the future of the games in terms of them going pro. These grants look to me like a step down a road we shouldn't go. I don't think its fair to say folk like me are jealous or scaremongering. I don't think thats the case for me anyway. And I certainly don't begrudge players getting properly looked after. I just think this is a step too far.

Exactly the ironic thing is that our principled GAA leader was bullied into accepting it in principle having opposed the concept prior to being in the position to bloody well do something about it. Its as big a u turn as the chuckle brothers.

Ah ffs orangeman and fof, if you're not going to take the thing seriously don't bother

Quote from: Uladh on April 09, 2008, 03:45:06 PM

Ah ffs orangeman and fof, if you're not going to take the thing seriously don't bother

I AM being serious Uladh ! But the bit about the Chuckle brothers whilst funny isn't an outrageous parrallel to draw !

Quote from: orangeman on April 09, 2008, 04:01:55 PM
I AM being serious Uladh !

Oh i know

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 09, 2008, 02:11:44 PM
It just seems very gerrymandered to me at best and I have to say I do fear for the future of the games in terms of them going pro. These grants look to me like a step down a road we shouldn't go. I don't think its fair to say folk like me are jealous or scaremongering. I don't think thats the case for me anyway. And I certainly don't begrudge players getting properly looked after. I just think this is a step too far.

I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

Look on the bright side.

1. The original "pay or play" grants deal agreed on 8 December last by Central Council has been scrapped.

2. Last night's DRA judgement states clearly that GAA members are free to go to the DRA to seek remedy against anyone suspected of abusing the new "expenses" scheme and breaching Rule 11.

The amateur status of the association has actually been copperfastened, in the teeth of serious opposition from the Croke Park politburo, the GPA and the media. Not a bad few months work for Mark Conway and friends. They deserve our thanks.

Quote from: cornafean on April 09, 2008, 04:28:35 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 09, 2008, 02:11:44 PM
It just seems very gerrymandered to me at best and I have to say I do fear for the future of the games in terms of them going pro. These grants look to me like a step down a road we shouldn't go. I don't think its fair to say folk like me are jealous or scaremongering. I don't think thats the case for me anyway. And I certainly don't begrudge players getting properly looked after. I just think this is a step too far.

I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

Look on the bright side.

1. The original "pay or play" grants deal agreed on 8 December last by Central Council has been scrapped.

2. Last night's DRA judgement states clearly that GAA members are free to go to the DRA to seek remedy against anyone suspected of abusing the new "expenses" scheme and breaching Rule 11.

The amateur status of the association has actually been copperfastened, in the teeth of serious opposition from the Croke Park politburo, the GPA and the media. Not a bad few months work for Mark Conway and friends. They deserve our thanks.

That is a more positve outlook but sadly I fear we passed the point of rescue !

Quote from: cornafean on April 09, 2008, 04:28:35 PM
I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

Look on the bright side.

1. The original "pay or play" grants deal agreed on 8 December last by Central Council has been scrapped.

2. Last night's DRA judgement states clearly that GAA members are free to go to the DRA to seek remedy against anyone suspected of abusing the new "expenses" scheme and breaching Rule 11.

The amateur status of the association has actually been copperfastened, in the teeth of serious opposition from the Croke Park politburo, the GPA and the media. Not a bad few months work for Mark Conway and friends. They deserve our thanks.

Virtually what the GAA hierarchy have been saying since the publication of this proposal.

consensus at last

Quote from: Uladh on April 09, 2008, 05:12:56 PM
Virtually what the GAA hierarchy have been saying since the publication of this proposal.

consensus at last

If the GAA hierarchy had had their way, we would have been left with the dog's dinner that was the 8-12-07 "pay for play" proposal. They have done themselves no favours on this topic and deeply damaged their own credibility and moral authority as leaders of the association.  The ugliness of the recent Cork dispute earlier this year was the first manifestation of this damage. I hope it is the last, but I have my doubts.  >:( 

Quote from: cornafean on April 09, 2008, 08:22:04 PM

Quote from: Uladh on April 09, 2008, 05:12:56 PM
Virtually what the GAA hierarchy have been saying since the publication of this proposal.

consensus at last

If the GAA hierarchy had had their way, we would have been left with the dog's dinner that was the 8-12-07 "pay for play" proposal. They have done themselves no favours on this topic and deeply damaged their own credibility and moral authority as leaders of the association.  The ugliness of the recent Cork dispute earlier this year was the first manifestation of this damage. I hope it is the last, but I have my doubts.  >:( 

You KNOW it won't be the last ! And so do I and everyone else - it's beginning of the end of the GAA as an amateur association - to pretend otherwise is folly !

Remind me again of the link between the grants issue and the cork hurlers and footballers striking over selectors?

QuoteRemind me again of the link between the grants issue and the cork hurlers and footballers striking over selectors?

How about Donal Og Cusack organising strikes on both issues inside a month, for starters?

Back to the conjecture and scaremongering i see. any evidence one man organised even one strike? thought not.

Now, When was the second strike?

Uladh, would you ever stop being so obnoxious.

You asked us to remind you of any links between the grants issue and the Cork strike.

I gave you one notable example in reply.

In answer to your next question, there's plenty of evidence of his role.

He was at the top table when the GPA announced to the media its intention to strike, and he attacked the media. Donal O'Neill has since said he is now driving the GPA towards strike actions. He is also recognised as the commander in chief of the Cork hurlers, who decided to join the Cork football team on strike.

In answer to your last question, I said he was "organising strikes". He did. The GPA one didn't go ahead, but it was still organised.

Brennan welcomes DRA judgement
By Cóilín Duffy

GAA President Nickey Brennan has welcomed the DRA's judgement, released on Tuesday night which supports the introduction of Government Grants for inter-county players.
"There will still be a number of counties who will vote against motion 2 (re grants) but they can't vote against it on the basis that it is 'pay-for-play' because the DRA have ruled that the grants aren't 'pay-for-play'," Brennan said.
"I was very confident, we wouldn't have embarked on this (if we didn't think it was possible). We made the point all along - both Pauric Duffy did and others that we hold Rule 11 and the amateur status very dear to our hearts and we were not going to do anything that would undermine that.
"I think the DRA ruling full supports the angle and the line we are taking there."
Brennan also confirmed that at no stage had he spoken to Mark Conway or other members of the 'Of One Belief' anti-grants group in an official capacity on the issue.
"No (we didn't talk to them) – I think the one great thing about the GAA is that we are an organisation that has a lot of different views on many things.
"People held a very strong view in relation to this Government funding scheme and people were using the term 'pay-for-play'. We vehemently disagreed with that and our position has now been vindicated."
He added, "whatever arguments people make on Saturday, those who continue to be opposed to motion 2. Whatever arguments they can make – they'll hardly be able to make arguments that it is pay-for-play anyway when the best legal minds that could be got and the DRA itself, whom we all respect; have said it's not."

However Brennan was keen to stress that GAA members are entitled to have their say, no matter what their viewpoint.
"People are entitled to their views and we have never said anything derogatory about the 'Of One Belief' group. They are good GAA people, but we were very sincere about how we went about it and we have always had the good of the Association at heart in everything that we have done."
With the Government grants a major issue for the Gaelic Players Association, GPA Chief Executive Dessie Farrell stated in a Sunday newspaper interview that the next thing on his agenda is to make the GPA an official part of the GAA, something which Brennan isn't entirely ruling out.
"There are ongoing discussions with the GPA in relation to matters like that," Brennan stated.
"It's fair to say we were having discussions on various fronts over the last 12 months but they very much went off the rails, over the last six months because the whole Government funding scheme came on to the agenda.
He added, "We just didn't have time to do anything else.
"If we can get this matter dealt with at Congress it will allow us to move on to other areas and discuss with them and see can there be a more formal relationship but as far as I am concerned we need to get the weekend out of the way first before we can deal with that."
And it's a busy Congress that Brennan and his top level colleagues will face into at the weekend with plenty up for discussion, apart from the grants issue.

"There will be a very important presentation on Friday night outlining how the funds we have got from rugby and soccer will be spent over the next three years," he said.
"It has been presented to Central Council already on more than one occasion but the details of it have failed to filter down to the grassroots level and to club level."
Brennan also believes that the Wicklow motion in favour of teams in Division 4 of the National Football League making a return to the All-Ireland qualifiers will be hotly debated.
"It will come on to the agenda and let it take its course.
"They (delegates) will decide what they want, as they decided the last time
"There will be one extra weekend taken off the club programme (if it is passed) but I am happy to let the motion go to Congress. It came from a review group that looked at the structure of competitions, it was passed by a previous Congress and now for some reason or another it has dawned on people over the previous year, that we passed this motion and why did we pass it.
"I'm happy to let it take its course and whatever the outcome of it is, that's the outcome. I'm not going to pre-judge it or give a particular view on it one way or another."

Quote from: orangeman on April 09, 2008, 12:10:57 PM
It's as simple as this :Although I would roughly support a lot of what he beleivesin, Mark Conway needs to catch himself on and realise that the GAA at county board, provinicial and national level do not give one fiddlers about the so called ordinary grassroots GAA member. Although the GAA is made up primarily of ordinary, hardworking volunteers, this ethos is no longer recognised, valued or respected at county board, provincial or national level. Ordinary club members are there to do the shite work, breed and nurture new talent to be sacrficed by clubs as soon as they are of any use to the county teams so their talent can be utilised by the higher echelons of the GAA.

It's sadly as simple as this.

And the president's job is to go round the clubs and counties, open new fields ( paid for by hardworking members at club level ) and tell us gobshites how much our work is valued and respected and how there'd be no GAA without us !!


FFS when are WE going to cop on ???

We're the ASSHOLES not Nicky Brennan et al !!

At least Mark Conway is trying to do something about it and for that I admire him. It's very easy to sit about and gripe but it takes courage to stand up and be counted. If griping is all everyone was prepared to do you can be damned sure things will not change.

Quote from: OakLeaf on April 10, 2008, 09:33:18 AM

Quote from: orangeman on April 09, 2008, 12:10:57 PM
It's as simple as this :Although I would roughly support a lot of what he beleivesin, Mark Conway needs to catch himself on and realise that the GAA at county board, provinicial and national level do not give one fiddlers about the so called ordinary grassroots GAA member. Although the GAA is made up primarily of ordinary, hardworking volunteers, this ethos is no longer recognised, valued or respected at county board, provincial or national level. Ordinary club members are there to do the shite work, breed and nurture new talent to be sacrficed by clubs as soon as they are of any use to the county teams so their talent can be utilised by the higher echelons of the GAA.

It's sadly as simple as this.

And the president's job is to go round the clubs and counties, open new fields ( paid for by hardworking members at club level ) and tell us gobshites how much our work is valued and respected and how there'd be no GAA without us !!


FFS when are WE going to cop on ???

We're the ASSHOLES not Nicky Brennan et al !!

At least Mark Conway is trying to do something about it and for that I admire him. It's very easy to sit about and gripe but it takes courage to stand up and be counted. If griping is all everyone was prepared to do you can be damned sure things will not change.

Oakleaf - I don't think you've bothered to read all my posts ! So go away and read them before making a summary judgement ! Please and thank you ! Then come back and tell me whose side I'm on. ;)

Quote from: laoisgaa on April 10, 2008, 01:01:10 AM
Brennan welcomes DRA judgement
By Cóilín Duffy

GAA President Nickey Brennan has welcomed the DRA's judgement, released on Tuesday night which supports the introduction of Government Grants for inter-county players.
"There will still be a number of counties who will vote against motion 2 (re grants) but they can't vote against it on the basis that it is 'pay-for-play' because the DRA have ruled that the grants aren't 'pay-for-play'," Brennan said.
"I was very confident, we wouldn't have embarked on this (if we didn't think it was possible). We made the point all along - both Pauric Duffy did and others that we hold Rule 11 and the amateur status very dear to our hearts and we were not going to do anything that would undermine that.
"I think the DRA ruling full supports the angle and the line we are taking there."
Brennan also confirmed that at no stage had he spoken to Mark Conway or other members of the 'Of One Belief' anti-grants group in an official capacity on the issue.
"No (we didn't talk to them) – I think the one great thing about the GAA is that we are an organisation that has a lot of different views on many things.
"People held a very strong view in relation to this Government funding scheme and people were using the term 'pay-for-play'. We vehemently disagreed with that and our position has now been vindicated."
He added, "whatever arguments people make on Saturday, those who continue to be opposed to motion 2. Whatever arguments they can make – they'll hardly be able to make arguments that it is pay-for-play anyway when the best legal minds that could be got and the DRA itself, whom we all respect; have said it's not."

However Brennan was keen to stress that GAA members are entitled to have their say, no matter what their viewpoint.
"People are entitled to their views and we have never said anything derogatory about the 'Of One Belief' group. They are good GAA people, but we were very sincere about how we went about it and we have always had the good of the Association at heart in everything that we have done."
With the Government grants a major issue for the Gaelic Players Association, GPA Chief Executive Dessie Farrell stated in a Sunday newspaper interview that the next thing on his agenda is to make the GPA an official part of the GAA, something which Brennan isn't entirely ruling out.
"There are ongoing discussions with the GPA in relation to matters like that," Brennan stated.
"It's fair to say we were having discussions on various fronts over the last 12 months but they very much went off the rails, over the last six months because the whole Government funding scheme came on to the agenda.
He added, "We just didn't have time to do anything else.
"If we can get this matter dealt with at Congress it will allow us to move on to other areas and discuss with them and see can there be a more formal relationship but as far as I am concerned we need to get the weekend out of the way first before we can deal with that."
And it's a busy Congress that Brennan and his top level colleagues will face into at the weekend with plenty up for discussion, apart from the grants issue.

"There will be a very important presentation on Friday night outlining how the funds we have got from rugby and soccer will be spent over the next three years," he said.
"It has been presented to Central Council already on more than one occasion but the details of it have failed to filter down to the grassroots level and to club level."
Brennan also believes that the Wicklow motion in favour of teams in Division 4 of the National Football League making a return to the All-Ireland qualifiers will be hotly debated.
"It will come on to the agenda and let it take its course.
"They (delegates) will decide what they want, as they decided the last time
"There will be one extra weekend taken off the club programme (if it is passed) but I am happy to let the motion go to Congress. It came from a review group that looked at the structure of competitions, it was passed by a previous Congress and now for some reason or another it has dawned on people over the previous year, that we passed this motion and why did we pass it.
"I'm happy to let it take its course and whatever the outcome of it is, that's the outcome. I'm not going to pre-judge it or give a particular view on it one way or another."

they can't vote against it on the basis that it is 'pay-for play" - Joke !

the one great thing about the GAA is that we are an organisation that has a lot of different views Yes, but only the official view is permitted.

Brennan was keen to stress that GAA members are entitled to have their say  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D  Would you ever go away and catch yourself on Nicky - your term is coming to an end soon and thank God cos your presidency will not be remembered fondly !

Quote from: quidnunc on April 09, 2008, 11:19:38 PM
Uladh, would you ever stop being so obnoxious.

You asked us to remind you of any links between the grants issue and the Cork strike.

I gave you one notable example in reply.

In answer to your next question, there's plenty of evidence of his role.

He was at the top table when the GPA announced to the media its intention to strike, and he attacked the media. Donal O'Neill has since said he is now driving the GPA towards strike actions. He is also recognised as the commander in chief of the Cork hurlers, who decided to join the Cork football team on strike.

In answer to your last question, I said he was "organising strikes". He did. The GPA one didn't go ahead, but it was still organised.

If it's obnxious to disagree with you and point out how you base your beliefs on hunches and conjecture, then i will remain on that course sir.

Virtually all of the cork hurlers and footballers are GPA members, but you just opted for the obvious bogeyman.

You have absolutely no knowledge of cusack's involvement or influence on the cork proceedings. he was one of 5 or 6 i read listed as "eleceted representatives" of both panels. If there's "pleanty of evidence" as you say, post it up there like a good fella. Commander in chief. don't make me laugh. There was no GPA strike.



The irony of people such as yourself is that you are so busy raging against the perception of doom that you are unable to recognise the issues in front of you.

The GPA's role in this ended quite a while ago after reaching agreement with the government and the GAA hierarchy.
The DRA have removed the largest stick with which to beat this scheme - the theory that it contravenes rule 11.

Your grievence should be with the GAA and its procedures. Personally i think they handled it very badly and sneakily and had there been a full debate a lot of the scaremongering could have been shown up and we'd have a straight forward vote on the only actual issue which is in front of congress this week - whether we are or are not content to allow the government to fund an increase in IC players expenses within our own rules.

Quote from: orangeman on April 10, 2008, 10:10:58 AM

Quote from: OakLeaf on April 10, 2008, 09:33:18 AM

Quote from: orangeman on April 09, 2008, 12:10:57 PM
It's as simple as this :Although I would roughly support a lot of what he beleivesin, Mark Conway needs to catch himself on and realise that the GAA at county board, provinicial and national level do not give one fiddlers about the so called ordinary grassroots GAA member. Although the GAA is made up primarily of ordinary, hardworking volunteers, this ethos is no longer recognised, valued or respected at county board, provincial or national level. Ordinary club members are there to do the shite work, breed and nurture new talent to be sacrficed by clubs as soon as they are of any use to the county teams so their talent can be utilised by the higher echelons of the GAA.

It's sadly as simple as this.

And the president's job is to go round the clubs and counties, open new fields ( paid for by hardworking members at club level ) and tell us gobshites how much our work is valued and respected and how there'd be no GAA without us !!


FFS when are WE going to cop on ???

We're the ASSHOLES not Nicky Brennan et al !!

At least Mark Conway is trying to do something about it and for that I admire him. It's very easy to sit about and gripe but it takes courage to stand up and be counted. If griping is all everyone was prepared to do you can be damned sure things will not change.

Oakleaf - I don't think you've bothered to read all my posts ! So go away and read them before making a summary judgement ! Please and thank you ! Then come back and tell me whose side I'm on. ;)

orangeman, I know whose side you're on and I commend you for that. All I'm saying is that you seem resigned to a position where the ordinary GAA member can't make any difference anyway, so why bother. The GAA hierarchy do seem to be a law onto themselves these days but it won't change until enough people kick up a stink. 

Quote from: Uladh on April 10, 2008, 11:15:43 AM
Your grievence should be with the GAA and its procedures. Personally i think they handled it very badly and sneakily and had there been a full debate a lot of the scaremongering could have been shown up and we'd have a straight forward vote on the only actual issue which is in front of congress this week - whether we are or are not content to allow the government to fund an increase in IC players expenses within our own rules.

This whole thing has gone beyond a joke now.

It started out as a grants scheme based on meeting certain training criteria and each team's progress in the championship.

Now its a top-up expenses scheme, aimed at those who take their car to training sessions, Oh and by the way we can give some money to those who don't bring their cars under some bogus heading of sundry expenses.

Does anyone really understand what the proposal is and how its going to be implemented. I can see more strikes ahead when players don't get what they were expecting.

Wouldn't it be better for the government to give a straight-forward grant to the GAA for the purposes of implenting a top-up milage scheme? That way, the money could be distributed to each county board who would then pay 1.20 a mile instead of 0.50.

Quote from: OakLeaf on April 10, 2008, 01:26:10 PM
This whole thing has gone beyond a joke now.

It started out as a grants scheme based on meeting certain training criteria and each team's progress in the championship.

Now its a top-up expenses scheme, aimed at those who take their car to training sessions, Oh and by the way we can give some money to those who don't bring their cars under some bogus heading of sundry expenses.

Be careful. A few weeks ago, I was accused of being an idiot and a whole lot besides when I expressed similar doubts on these pages about the new "expenses" scheme.  ;)

Quote from: OakLeaf on April 10, 2008, 01:26:10 PM
Does anyone really understand what the proposal is and how its going to be implemented. I can see more strikes ahead when players don't get what they were expecting.

Joe Brolly claimed recently in his Mail on Sunday and Gaelic Life columns that the scheme is totally unworkable except to the extent that it contains a proviso whereby if a player fails to claim his allotted grant/expense allowance, the funds will be reallocated to a "county panel fund". Brolly reckons that panels will agree among themselves not to claim as individuals but to share the proceeds of the "county panel fund" by spending it on a team holiday.

It remains to be seen what will happen when the Sports Council and the Comptroller & Auditor General realise that an exchequer sports allocation of €3.5m is being used effectively as a holiday drinking fund.  :o When the Irish Olympic team return from China without a medal to their name, someone will whinge that they are not getting enough funding from the government. Don't be too surprised if someone accuses the GAA of literally pissing away funds that should in their minds rightfully belong to athletes.

Quote from: OakLeaf on April 10, 2008, 01:26:10 PM
Wouldn't it be better for the government to give a straight-forward grant to the GAA for the purposes of implenting a top-up milage scheme? That way, the money could be distributed to each county board who would then pay 1.20 a mile instead of 0.50.

The problem here is that €1.20 a mile is way more that what either the Irish Revenue or the Inland Revenue in the UK will class as tax-free mileage. People seem to forget also that the Revenue on both sides of the border apply strict restrictions to the payment of mileage. For example, anyone who drives a car paid for by their employer cannot claim additional expenses.

Quote from: OakLeaf on April 10, 2008, 01:14:25 PM

Quote from: orangeman on April 10, 2008, 10:10:58 AM

Quote from: OakLeaf on April 10, 2008, 09:33:18 AM

Quote from: orangeman on April 09, 2008, 12:10:57 PM
It's as simple as this :Although I would roughly support a lot of what he beleivesin, Mark Conway needs to catch himself on and realise that the GAA at county board, provinicial and national level do not give one fiddlers about the so called ordinary grassroots GAA member. Although the GAA is made up primarily of ordinary, hardworking volunteers, this ethos is no longer recognised, valued or respected at county board, provincial or national level. Ordinary club members are there to do the shite work, breed and nurture new talent to be sacrficed by clubs as soon as they are of any use to the county teams so their talent can be utilised by the higher echelons of the GAA.

It's sadly as simple as this.

And the president's job is to go round the clubs and counties, open new fields ( paid for by hardworking members at club level ) and tell us gobshites how much our work is valued and respected and how there'd be no GAA without us !!


FFS when are WE going to cop on ???

We're the ASSHOLES not Nicky Brennan et al !!

At least Mark Conway is trying to do something about it and for that I admire him. It's very easy to sit about and gripe but it takes courage to stand up and be counted. If griping is all everyone was prepared to do you can be damned sure things will not change.

Oakleaf - I don't think you've bothered to read all my posts ! So go away and read them before making a summary judgement ! Please and thank you ! Then come back and tell me whose side I'm on. ;)

orangeman, I know whose side you're on and I commend you for that. All I'm saying is that you seem resigned to a position where the ordinary GAA member can't make any difference anyway, so why bother. The GAA hierarchy do seem to be a law onto themselves these days but it won't change until enough people kick up a stink. 

Ok but The Of One Belief Group were derided by the GPA and the GAA hierarchy - Nicky Brennan refused to meet them in an official capacity - and when they were beat by some fleet of foot and slight of hand trickery, Nicky Brennan has the audacity to come out and say how they're such decent people and how the GAA would be a poorer organisation without them etc etc ............. You've heard all the aould dribble before !!!!!


The Of One Belief Organisation had over 1000 members from all over Ireland but they were simply ignored !


You tell me how the GAA hierarchy can be taken on ???????

Well I'll tell you the only way you take them on :

Organise a strike !!!!!  ;)

Quote from: orangeman on April 11, 2008, 01:10:15 PM
Organise a strike !!!!!  ;)

;D You could be right!!

Keep chipping away is the only thing I can suggest. The only way to do that is bring forward motions through your club.

I think history will be the harsh judge of Brennan's shenanigans on this issue.

Aside from that, I think there will be lots more turmoil surrounding grants, even if it goes through at congress.

Can anyone let me know if Micheal Greenan is attending tomorrow's congress ??

Quote from: OakLeaf on April 11, 2008, 01:28:13 PM

Quote from: orangeman on April 11, 2008, 01:10:15 PM
Organise a strike !!!!!  ;)

;D You could be right!!

Keep chipping away is the only thing I can suggest. The only way to do that is bring forward motions through your club.

I think history will be the harsh judge of Brennan's shenanigans on this issue.

Aside from that, I think there will be lots more turmoil surrounding grants, even if it goes through at congress.





I have not seen much turmoil .1000 members is a big group but when you see Arch conservatives like the Cork county board voting for the grants it shows you what the offiical GAA thinks of the issue

Government Grants motion carried


Saturday, April 11.

GAA delegates have voted by a simple majority to accept the €3.5 million package proposed by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, to recognise the contribution of Senior Inter-county GAA players.

The scheme was passed by delegates at 11.15 am despite strong opposition to the scheme from speakers such as Tyrone's Mark Conway and Donal McAnallen.

An attempt by the Derry County Board to have their motion moved up the Clár was defeated following a vote, after which Con Hogan spoke on behalf of Central Council on the motion.

"This scheme does not in any way contravene European Law," Hogan stated.


Meanwhile GAA Ard Stiurthoir and former Player Welfare Officer Pauric Duffy, maintained that the introduction of the Government grants would not facilitate a road to professionalism.

"This is a recognition of the effort the players put in to protect our indigenous games," Duffy said.

"We as an association are determined to develop and maintain our amateur status.

"It is time to move on – this issue has been on the agenda for the last six years. We need to get on and face the real serious challenges."

Quote from: Uladh on April 12, 2008, 12:22:52 PM



Government Grants motion carried


Saturday, April 11.

GAA delegates have voted by a simple majority to accept the €3.5 million package proposed by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, to recognise the contribution of Senior Inter-county GAA players.

The scheme was passed by delegates at 11.15 am despite strong opposition to the scheme from speakers such as Tyrone's Mark Conway and Donal McAnallen.

An attempt by the Derry County Board to have their motion moved up the Clár was defeated following a vote, after which Con Hogan spoke on behalf of Central Council on the motion.

"This scheme does not in any way contravene European Law," Hogan stated.


Meanwhile GAA Ard Stiurthoir and former Player Welfare Officer Pauric Duffy, maintained that the introduction of the Government grants would not facilitate a road to professionalism.

"This is a recognition of the effort the players put in to protect our indigenous games," Duffy said.

"We as an association are determined to develop and maintain our amateur status.

"It is time to move on – this issue has been on the agenda for the last six years. We need to get on and face the real serious challenges."

Which are what Mr. Duffy ? Professionalism ? TV contracts ? Sponsorship rights ? Image rights ?

Where does the ordinary club player fit in Mr. Duffy ?

 

Mark Conway is one of the most vocal anti-grants campaigners
GAA Congress delegates have voted to accept the 3.5m euro package proposed by the government to recognise the contribution of inter-county players.

The scheme was passed on Saturday morning despite strong opposition from speakers such as Tyrone's Mark Conway and Donal McAnallen.

An attempt by the Derry County Board to have their motion moved up the Clár was defeated following a vote.

The GAA has ruled that the scheme does not breach the sport's amateur status.

Con Hogan spoke on behalf of Central Council on the motion.

"This scheme does not in any way contravene European Law," Hogan stated.

However, Derry's Seamus McCloy was concerned that what had previously been called 'a grant, an award, a small contribution' was now being proposed as 'eligible expenses'.

McCloy wondered if the implementation of the scheme would lead to larger financial contributions to players down the line.

"Can anyone else finance a scheme such as a sponsor, a county board and a business?," McCloy questioned.

  This can only further enhance the improving relationships between county boards and players.

Dessie Farrell


"Should we pay for a babysitter and lie to others and pretend it wasn't a payment?"

"It's cheap, it's grubby and it's wrong and it is blatantly obvious.

"I've never heard of expenses being calculated at 3.5million in advance." McCloy added: "The proposed payments as stated in the motion will not enhance team performances."

"Injustice will be increased and elitism will be established. Accepting these payments will accept the introduction of sham amateurism.

"There will be no going back."

Meanwhile, players representative and GPA chief executive Dessie Farrell stressed that his organisation were committed to maintaining the amateur status of the GAA.

"The GPA have a commitment to amateur status - this is something we have said from the very outset and this has proven to be true," Farrell said.

"This can only further enhance the improving relationships between county boards and players.

"There is no onus on the GAA to fund this scheme."

Meanwhile, GAA Ard Stiurthoir and former Player Welfare Officer Pauric Duffy, maintained that the introduction of the government grants would not facilitate a road to professionalism.

"This is a recognition of the effort the players put in to protect our indigenous games," Duffy said.

"We as an association are determined to develop and maintain our amateur status.

"It is time to move on - this issue has been on the agenda for the last six years. We need to get on and face the real serious challenges."




A complete sham if you ask me !

As with all congress decisions, its time to accept the majority decision and move on. The anti grant beliefs were well intentiaoned initially and asked some important questions of the GAA. Rule 11 has been protected. The GPA have been nudged into signing up to maintaining the integrity of rule 11 going forward and further government funding for our association has been secured.

The most imprtant issues i see ahead of us now are further improvement to facilities, particularly provision for winter and schools use, broadening the appeal of the GAA to the protestant and international communities and most importantly the upgrade of the importance of club football in the calendar.

Does this mean that Orangeman and his fellow travellers will now stop their spoilt child whinging and moaning and get on with their lives?

Quote from: Rossfan on April 12, 2008, 02:51:00 PM
Does this mean that Orangeman and his fellow travellers will now stop their spoilt child whinging and moaning and get on with their lives?

Does this mean that you and your friends will be getting a few more quid than you have been heretofor ?  ;)

I'm not a County footballer - things arent that bad here- and I only accept € €€€ , none of them oul' £ thingys.

just to say where i'm coming from - i reside not a million miles away from a particular university in dublin where i know for 100% fact that the senior  inter county players attending there get from various sources- scholarships, free accomodation, sponsored cars, free gear,mileage, meal vouchers, and now more expenses. Just in reference to Hound and sponsored cars i personally know 20 senior inter county footballers from one particular county with sponsored cars so your estimate a bit like Bertie's tax bill is a tad low i'd say.
The association is only going one way i feel. That's towards professionalism. Anyone who can't see that is either galactically stupid or simply refuses to read between the lines. Pay only goes one way -up - anyone who earns a living wage knows that. In my view if the demands are too much -cut back in standard then . The preceived 5% drop in standard is worth not losing what we have now- which is a game which is largely untainted by the greed of professional sports. Once it's gone you can't get it back. And it's on its way.
A sad day all round.

I would say DCU represents the top of the tree in terms of perks for players - way ahead of any county team. No county could hope to provide what DCU do, outside of maybe Dublin and Cork and even those two would have to massively overhaul their revenue sourcing. asking some people who should know, there is a grand total of one sponsored car in armagh - amongst 60/70 IC players.

your post implies that scholarships, free accomodation, sponsored cars, free gear, mileage and meal vouchers should not be forthcoming to players at that uni? if they are in a position to offer that to players then i don't see the problem. its the level of support i think all county players deserve but realistically no other universitys and certainly not counties are in a position to provide it.

they don't get it all from university uladh- in fact quite a bit of it comes from elsewhere. the top county players in the big counties all get sponsored cars from sponsors etc for example. Depressing really- i know they have to train quite a lot - but like i said the 5% increase in standard isn't worth professionalism. It's like sticking a finger in the dyke- and a lot of the younger ones are more militant than the current GPA heads. In ten years time inter county players will never play for their clubs. It reminds me a lof of Aussie Rules the way it is going.

Quote from: INDIANA on April 12, 2008, 04:25:29 PM
just to say where i'm coming from - i reside not a million miles away from a particular university in dublin where i know for 100% fact that the senior  inter county players attending there get from various sources- scholarships, free accomodation, sponsored cars, free gear,mileage, meal vouchers, and now more expenses. Just in reference to Hound and sponsored cars i personally know 20 senior inter county footballers from one particular county with sponsored cars so your estimate a bit like Bertie's tax bill is a tad low i'd say.
The association is only going one way i feel. That's towards professionalism. Anyone who can't see that is either galactically stupid or simply refuses to read between the lines. Pay only goes one way -up - anyone who earns a living wage knows that. In my view if the demands are too much -cut back in standard then . The preceived 5% drop in standard is worth not losing what we have now- which is a game which is largely untainted by the greed of professional sports. Once it's gone you can't get it back. And it's on its way.
A sad day all round.

Well said Indiana - couldn't agree with you more ! I suppose Rossfan will call you a whinger for holding that view !

Quote from: INDIANA on April 12, 2008, 05:29:32 PM
they don't get it all from university uladh- in fact quite a bit of it comes from elsewhere. the top county players in the big counties all get sponsored cars from sponsors etc for example. Depressing really- i know they have to train quite a lot - but like i said the 5% increase in standard isn't worth professionalism.

I don't understand - where are the getting it from? I also don't understand what could possibly be depressing that a top IC players gets a sponsored car?

Quote from: INDIANA on April 12, 2008, 05:29:32 PM
It's like sticking a finger in the dyke- and a lot of the younger ones are more militant than the current GPA heads. In ten years time inter county players will never play for their clubs. It reminds me a lof of Aussie Rules the way it is going.

You are of course entitled to your opinion but i certainly don't agree with it. our congress listened to this and contrary arguments this morning and a majority decided that your argument does not stand up

A lot of them get cars from sponsors- uladh it's the done thing down here. I wasn't saying the fact they get cars is depressing just in general. i often trained twice a day as a club player like many others on this website. It's a disappointing trait from the Celtic Tiger where everyone wants something for everything now. I often believe the demands are simply too much for precious little increase in standard. I may be a minority but its not worth the trade off despite what the GPA think. Cut back the training if necessary but the government won't pay this forever.

Well it's "expenses" now, not grants, so no problem. Who can object to expenses? Unless, of course, it's expenses that are available to one category of GAA member only, expenses that vary depending on how successful your team is and expenses that are determined in advance. But I still have a few questions.

Why was it suddenly converted from grants to expenses? Weren't we assured that the grants were above board and not an infringement of Rule 11 and not pay-for-play? Why, then, the need to re-constitute the payments as expenses only when Mark Conway questioned it? And what became of the December agreement? And the assurances that went with it? Only four months ago we were being invited to sign up to that version and assured that it was the well-thought-out, loophole-free, no-threat-to-amateurism product of the best minds the GAA could assemble. Forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical when the same people now assure me that this time it's really OK.

Maybe I'm wrong and the re-jigging of the pay as expenses has been a master stroke that has dodged the juggernaut of professionalism and side-tracked it into a cul-de-sac. But I'm not reassured that this regime of predetermined, multi-tiered expenses will survive its first encounter with the taxman of either administration, never mind a referral to the European court. Won't happen? Probably not for a few hundred Euro. But, as Indiana said, wages – sorry, expenses - only ever go up and some day, some player will object to having his expenses income limited by being forced to play for Leitrim when Dublin offers so much more. I can't see how the European Court  could consider the Leitrim footballer's restricted earnings to be substantially different to the case of the Belgian judo player.

And forgive me for being nauseated at the sanctimonious bilge from Farrell about his reverence for the amateur ethos of the GAA, when he has already (inadvertently) signalled that this is only step one on the road to professionalism. Worse still, this shambolic, craven GAA administration is to take this cuckoo and his organisation officially into the nest and put them in charge of player welfare, knowing that they officially exclude 95% of all players from membership. Will we get to vote on that?

It is more likely that some club official ,player or county board will take a case to get a suspension lifted or a match re played .That is a much bigger threat to the GAA

Quote from: INDIANA on April 12, 2008, 04:25:29 PM
just to say where i'm coming from - i reside not a million miles away from a particular university in dublin where i know for 100% fact that the senior  inter county players attending there get from various sources- scholarships, free accomodation, sponsored cars, free gear,mileage, meal vouchers, and now more expenses. Just in reference to Hound and sponsored cars i personally know 20 senior inter county footballers from one particular county with sponsored cars so your estimate a bit like Bertie's tax bill is a tad low i'd say.
The association is only going one way i feel. That's towards professionalism. Anyone who can't see that is either galactically stupid or simply refuses to read between the lines. Pay only goes one way -up - anyone who earns a living wage knows that. In my view if the demands are too much -cut back in standard then . The preceived 5% drop in standard is worth not losing what we have now- which is a game which is largely untainted by the greed of professional sports. Once it's gone you can't get it back. And it's on its way.
A sad day all round.

Well put, and did I hear somewhere that there would be more negotiations in 3 years time to 'increase' the grants? I put the word increase in inverted commas because they (GPA) will hardly say we're alright we want a decrease at this stage. >:(

The GAA's ruling body - congress - democratically voted to accept this scheme.
Take ye're batin and move on for **** sake .
Enough of the"everyone's out of step except us in the purity corner"

well thats done and dusted suppose we cant do much about it now. but just a few things to note:

the whole episode has shown the gaa top table to be elitists who appear to think that they can do their own thing (and are doing so). the whole episode has been openly regarded as underhand and sneaky from the outset. the gaa having to re-fashion the whole thing 2 or 3 times simply stands to support this fact.

i think the prevailing view is that this is just the start of it. many problems existing in the gaa have been identified during this debate ie payments to managers etc - i feel we now have no chance of reversing any of these trends. (hope im wrong)

i have a fair idea that in a few years time some of those who supported the grants will be spouting from their armchairs about the lack of loyalty and volunteer ethos in gaa clubs. but only time will tell.

ROSSFAN - you are an eejit. orangeman, hardy etc have shown themselves over long periods of time to be true gaa men with the best interests of the gaa at heart. they have always presented their arguments rationally and had respect for (most) others during the whole debate. in fact, i think there is a good chance that much of what they say will be proved right over the coming years. for you to refer to them in such a manner shos you up for what you are.

and lastly:

NICK BRENNAN shame on you. you try to come across as the genuine 'supporter' but have been shown up to be nothing more than a news reader for dessie and duffy's script.

So let's get this straight ? --
me,Nicky Brennan,the GAA top brass, the vast majority of Congress are all out of step.
We are also not true GAA people and havent got the interests of the GAA at heart.
Only the purity police who crept out of the woodwork last November know what's right and proper for CLCG.
::) ::)
Jasus will ye give over the crapology. >:(

Quote from: Rossfan on April 12, 2008, 07:56:34 PM
me,Nicky Brennan,the GAA top brass, the vast majority of Congress are all out of step...

At least that much you recognise Rossfan  ;)

Truth is, no one really knows with absolute certainty where this will lead, sooner or later, but the thin edge of the wedge it surely is.

Rossfan - why do you feel the need to ridicule those of us on the opposite side to yourself? Its unnecessary and unhelpful but an all to frequent method of "debate" in modern Ireland. I'm being honest from every cell of my being on this. In 10-15 years we will have a form of professionalism - I can now see that this can not be averted. Isn't it amazing that this will happen even though everyone by their own declaration doesn't want it? I can take a lot of reverses. As a GAA man most of us lose more than you win so you gain an ability to deal with it. What I cannot take is liars and cheats. The dishonesty surrounding his issue is what is sickening to folk like me. Some people want professionalism but don't have the balls to say so or argue their case. They will get it by dishonest means. I've no respect for people that operate like that and they obviously have no respect for the likes of me.

You can ridicule me if you like but what good will that do. I'm entited to my opinion and won't be shouted down by you. Yes - "we've lost" and we will have to find a way to get over it. The only thing that hurts more is that there are worse reverses to come in the years ahead.

I feel sick.

Seánie,
It's not the genuine arguments against the "expenses" "grants" or whatever that bothers me. It's the holier than thou attitudes, the strident tones, the running down of Dessie Farrell, of the GPA, of Nicky Brennan, of the majority votes, of the GAA "top table" of anyone and everyone who doesnt agree with the narrow viewpoint of the anti expenses/grants minority.
(They remind me of my neighbour's party - the Republican Sinn Féin  ;))

With all due respects the "slide to professionalism" surely began the day jersey advertising was allowed followed by allowing players to cash in on their name and fame by endorsements/opening supermarkets etc. Not to mention of course the medal presentations.
In that sense GAA players arent truly amateur the way golf/boxing is because they have pro versions as well and need to keep a strict demarcation line.
The vast majority at Congress voted to go ahead with this scheme and I am quite prepared to trust in the majority of the GAA membership to do the right thing (almost) always as they have been doing for 120 years or so.

QuoteWith all due respects the "slide to professionalism" surely began the day jersey advertising was allowed followed by allowing players to cash in on their name and fame by endorsements/opening supermarkets etc

All of those changes were after high powered committees were commissioned to examine their impact on amateur status. Not so this time and people are entitled to ask why. I think its a case of the emporers new clothes to be honest.

People are entitled to question the GAA top brass, the GPA, etc if they like. Its called democracy. ou choose to trust them and thats fair enough. I don't to be honest. I can see why things are going this way but I don't agree with it. INDIANA's post earlier was excellent in my view. I fear th horse has bolted now though.

Rossfan, your line of reasoning is akin to saying that because the judicial review undertaken by Thomas Davis in the matter of Tallaght Stadium was dismissed, Thomas Davis were therefore in the wrong. You can accept that due process has been followed and still feel misgivings.

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 12, 2008, 10:23:31 PM
[
People are entitled to question the GAA top brass, the GPA, etc if they like. Its called democracy.

Democracy is also about accepting the will of the majority. The majority have spoken by accepting something that the GAA looked for 5 or 6 years ago and got committments from Govt then.
If ye cant trust our own membership and Congress what the hell are ye at? The people have no right to do whet ye think is wrong??
Déiseach -all I'm asking is that the antigranters do like Thos Davis - accept reality and move on.

I dont agree with the move to re extend the Qualifiers but I'm not going to run down Wicklow/Brennan/Duffy/ all who voted for the motion and call them all sorts of names like untrustworthy etc.
I think it's called maturity.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 12, 2008, 07:46:05 PM
The GAA's ruling body - congress - democratically voted to accept this scheme.
Take ye're batin and move on for **** sake .
Enough of the"everyone's out of step except us in the purity corner"

I don't see it as a bating ! Obviously you do and you're so happy about it - I hope you're still as happy in a few years time. Maybe you will be - maybe you'll have a job with the professional players union, negotiating the next pay settlement.

As other posters have said, I have tried to present my argument, without insulting those who might hold opposite views. I am not taking a "holier than thou" attitude. I have argued consistently that the GAA hierarchy have been sneaky in their approach and have turned their coats on this issue. That's the bit that really annoys me - it's not the fact that players are getting some money in itself, it's the whole principle and how the hierarchy conducted themselves on this sorry issue.

But sure as long as you have victory, what odds about the rest of us !

Rossfan this is a fundamental change in the history of association that the top brass have attempted to trivalise as like marking the lining of a pitch. For the first time in the history of the association players officially will be paid to play for their county. Now pardon me if some of us as grassroots members feel the need to question the liberal attitude of the top brass towards this.
The issue was never debated at grassroots level. Upon the intervention of Conway it was found the original proposal that the top brass were going to railroad through was flawed! I have no problem with players getting the general perks going at that level but i draw the line at this "expenses" lark. You can't have a little bit of professionalism- you are either amateur or you're not. And we're not anymore. This is the beginning of the end. I've followed aussie rules for years and the parallels are striking in how their game eventually became professional.
Have you ever been given a reduction in salary when you went for your annual increase? I know i haven't. Are people naive enough to think this won't increase. With the demise of the Celtic Tiger do people really think Cowen and Co are going to continue to fund this indefintely? That when they pull the plug that Dessie and Co will fold up their tents and ride off into the sunset? Not a chance - they'll be looking for Tv money next.
They claim if they train less the standard will drop. I;m not convinced by that argument because i don't believe the skill level is exponentially greater than 15 year ago- the speed and power is. But the trade off is not worth it. It is not worth the greed,politics and general bullshit that surround professional sport for a 5-10% increase in standard.
People can laugh if they want but you mark my words. In 10-15 years time county players won;t play for their clubs and it'll be the GPA necogiating the TV rights not the Gaa.

Quote from: INDIANA on April 12, 2008, 11:19:43 PM
Rossfan this is a fundamental change in the history of association that the top brass have attempted to trivalise as like marking the lining of a pitch. For the first time in the history of the association players officially will be paid to play for their county. Now pardon me if some of us as grassroots members feel the need to question the liberal attitude of the top brass towards this.
The issue was never debated at grassroots level. Upon the intervention of Conway it was found the original proposal that the top brass were going to railroad through was flawed! I have no problem with players getting the general perks going at that level but i draw the line at this "expenses" lark. You can't have a little bit of professionalism- you are either amateur or you're not. And we're not anymore. This is the beginning of the end. I've followed aussie rules for years and the parallels are striking in how their game eventually became professional.
Have you ever been given a reduction in salary when you went for your annual increase? I know i haven't. Are people naive enough to think this won't increase. With the demise of the Celtic Tiger do people really think Cowen and Co are going to continue to fund this indefintely? That when they pull the plug that Dessie and Co will fold up their tents and ride off into the sunset? Not a chance - they'll be looking for Tv money next.
They claim if they train less the standard will drop. I;m not convinced by that argument because i don't believe the skill level is exponentially greater than 15 year ago- the speed and power is. But the trade off is not worth it. It is not worth the greed,politics and general bullshit that surround professional sport for a 5-10% increase in standard.
People can laugh if they want but you mark my words. In 10-15 years time county players won;t play for their clubs and it'll be the GPA necogiating the TV rights not the Gaa.

Donal O'Neill former GPA Chief executive reckoned that this was his preferred method of getting paid.

Indiana - Sadly I think it will be less than 10 years before we lose county players to the clubs !  :(

Quote from: orangeman on April 12, 2008, 11:15:46 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 12, 2008, 07:46:05 PM
The GAA's ruling body - congress - democratically voted to accept this scheme.
Take ye're batin and move on for **** sake .
Enough of the"everyone's out of step except us in the purity corner"

I don't see it as a bating ! Obviously you do and you're so happy about it - I hope you're still as happy in a few years time. Maybe you will be - maybe you'll have a job with the professional players union, negotiating the next pay settlement.

Nah, after Roscommon plc have been wound up he'll have to change his name to Mayofan... ;)

QuoteI have argued consistently that the GAA hierarchy have been sneaky in their approach and have turned their coats on this issue. That's the bit that really annoys me - it's not the fact that players are getting some money in itself, it's the whole principle and how the hierarchy conducted themselves on this sorry issue.

OM didn't you argue consistently that the Cork players were wrong to strike considering the fact that the clubs voted for the CB proposal. I pointed out to you the undemocratic and debateable nature of those voted but you still thought that the players were wrong because democracy had spoken? I'm not having a pop at you OM but democracy in the GAA is riddled with politics and is rarely an expression of the grassroot view, in saying that I believe the GAA did the right thing today. 

QuoteThe issue was never debated at grassroots level. Upon the intervention of Conway it was found the original proposal that the top brass were going to railroad through was flawed! I have no problem with players getting the general perks going at that level but i draw the line at this "expenses" lark. You can't have a little bit of professionalism- you are either amateur or you're not. And we're not anymore.

Indiana we haven't been truely amateur for many years now, but I don't believe that this grant will lead to the scenario you paint. Many county players aren't available to their clubs now and rightly so IMO if county players stop playing for their clubs in the future then that may not be such a bad thing. But hopefully it won't be for money but out of realism.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 12, 2008, 07:46:05 PM
The GAA's ruling body - congress - democratically voted to accept this scheme.
Take ye're batin and move on for **** sake .
Enough of the"everyone's out of step except us in the purity corner"

This notion that Congress is infallible in the way that the Pope is and Emperor Hirohito was until 1945 is bizarre. A few years ago, Congress voted for a sin bin. Look what happened. A few years ago, Congress voted to exclude Division 4 teams from the All Ireland Qualifiers.  Look what happened.

Both these decisions were reversed, as they were both regarded in hindsight as mistakes. And yet today, the pro-Rule 11  & anti-grants lobby are told to forget the issue ever happened and "move on" as if they were undesirables blocking the public road.   ???

QuoteMany county players aren't available to their clubs now and rightly so IMO if county players stop playing for their clubs in the future then that may not be such a bad thing. But hopefully it won't be for money but out of realism.

Interesting.

Quote from: Zulu on April 12, 2008, 11:50:21 PM

QuoteI have argued consistently that the GAA hierarchy have been sneaky in their approach and have turned their coats on this issue. That's the bit that really annoys me - it's not the fact that players are getting some money in itself, it's the whole principle and how the hierarchy conducted themselves on this sorry issue.

OM didn't you argue consistently that the Cork players were wrong to strike considering the fact that the clubs voted for the CB proposal. I pointed out to you the undemocratic and debateable nature of those voted but you still thought that the players were wrong because democracy had spoken? I'm not having a pop at you OM but democracy in the GAA is riddled with politics and is rarely an expression of the grassroot view, in saying that I believe the GAA did the right thing today. 

QuoteThe issue was never debated at grassroots level. Upon the intervention of Conway it was found the original proposal that the top brass were going to railroad through was flawed! I have no problem with players getting the general perks going at that level but i draw the line at this "expenses" lark. You can't have a little bit of professionalism- you are either amateur or you're not. And we're not anymore.

Indiana we haven't been truely amateur for many years now, but I don't believe that this grant will lead to the scenario you paint. Many county players aren't available to their clubs now and rightly so IMO if county players stop playing for their clubs in the future then that may not be such a bad thing. But hopefully it won't be for money but out of realism.

You've inadvertently proved my arguments ! County players not playing with their clubs and that's ok with you ! What a laugh !  :D :D :D :D :D

That's good thinking Zulu - keep it up !

Quote from: cornafean on April 12, 2008, 11:50:58 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 12, 2008, 07:46:05 PM
The GAA's ruling body - congress - democratically voted to accept this scheme.
Take ye're batin and move on for **** sake .
Enough of the"everyone's out of step except us in the purity corner"

This notion that Congress is infallible in the way that the Pope is and Emperor Hirohito was until 1945 is bizarre. A few years ago, Congress voted for a sin bin. Look what happened. A few years ago, Congress voted to exclude Division 4 teams from the All Ireland Qualifiers.  Look what happened.

Both these decisions were reversed, as they were both regarded in hindsight as mistakes. And yet today, the pro-Rule 11  & anti-grants lobby are told to forget the issue ever happened and "move on" as if they were undesirables blocking the public road.   ???

That's really the bottom line Cronafean !  :( :( >:(

QuoteThis notion that Congress is infallible in the way that the Pope is and Emperor Hirohito was until 1945 is bizarre. A few years ago, Congress voted for a sin bin. Look what happened. A few years ago, Congress voted to exclude Division 4 teams from the All Ireland Qualifiers.  Look what happened.

Both these decisions were reversed, as they were both regarded in hindsight as mistakes. And yet today, the pro-Rule 11  & anti-grants lobby are told to forget the issue ever happened and "move on" as if they were undesirables blocking the public road.

Who said they were mistakes, the sinbin should have been given at least 2 National League seasons and big Joe should have been ignored. The decision to exclude division 4 teams from the championship created an extra weekend for clubs and added a bit of spice to both division 3 and 4, the logic of reversing this decision has to be questioned. As usual short sighted, parochial, self serving views over rule rational opinion in the GAA.

QuoteYou've inadvertently proved my arguments ! County players not playing with their clubs and that's ok with you ! What a laugh !     

That's good thinking Zulu - keep it up !

Care to elaborate OM?

QuoteQuote
Many county players aren't available to their clubs now and rightly so IMO if county players stop playing for their clubs in the future then that may not be such a bad thing. But hopefully it won't be for money but out of realism.
Interesting.

Same question to you POG.

Quote from: Zulu on April 13, 2008, 12:01:37 AM

QuoteThis notion that Congress is infallible in the way that the Pope is and Emperor Hirohito was until 1945 is bizarre. A few years ago, Congress voted for a sin bin. Look what happened. A few years ago, Congress voted to exclude Division 4 teams from the All Ireland Qualifiers.  Look what happened.

Both these decisions were reversed, as they were both regarded in hindsight as mistakes. And yet today, the pro-Rule 11  & anti-grants lobby are told to forget the issue ever happened and "move on" as if they were undesirables blocking the public road.

Who said they were mistakes, the sinbin should have been given at least 2 National League seasons and big Joe should have been ignored. The decision to exclude division 4 teams from the championship created an extra weekend for clubs and added a bit of spice to both division 3 and 4, the logic of reversing this decision has to be questioned. As usual short sighted, parochial, self serving views over rule rational opinion in the GAA.

Jesus it's great that you have all the right answers Zulu ! We'd all be lost without your wisdom and knowledge ! It's a pity we were not as well educate as you !  ;) ;) :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

if county players stop playing for their clubs in the future then that may not be such a bad thing. But hopefully it won't be for money but out of realism.


You're just following the trawler Zulu - another one who is led by the nose and now you claim to be a realist !! Unreal !!!!!!!!!!!  ;D ;D ;D

OM why don't you try and back up your opinion with some kind of argument rather than simply mis-quoting Cantona. How am I lead by the nose?

Zulu I think you're comments just speak volumes about your attitude, many in the gaa, myself included, would be screaming out for something to be done to address the issues in club football/hurling -  one of them being to allow county players to play a bigger part in their clubs.

I think you're right that we will come to a stage when county and club are effectively split but I would see it as a massive problem where you'd be happy for it to happen.  At this stage I'd welcome a split because the club scene is being killed off, classic case of cutting off your nose despite your face.

I am away to bed here - I've just realised that I'm tired !  ;) ;) ;) ;) In the same way that Cork showed the GAA hierarchy how to be realists in the face of strike action !!!!!!! Jesus but we've a lot to thank the Cork lads for !!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Zulu on April 13, 2008, 12:12:11 AM
OM why don't you try and back up your opinion with some kind of argument rather than simply mis-quoting Cantona. How am I lead by the nose?

There's going to be a new Cork president who although anti grant is a realist and realises like others that he has to back down in the face of the Donal Og, Sean Og and most recently Zulu Og - The Cork lads have reallt shown the way.

It's time we became like them and realise that whatwever the Cork players and posters say, it is best just to go along with it.

Taking county players away from the clubs is a silly idea. Rugby did this - look at the state of club rugby.
Zulu wants county players simply to play for their counties - how many games a year would players from the weaker counties get per year ? And as you have all the answers Zulu,how much could you afford to pay them ?

QuoteZulu I think you're comments just speak volumes about your attitude, many in the gaa, myself included, would be screaming out for something to be done to address the issues in club football/hurling -  one of them being to allow county players to play a bigger part in their clubs.

That's where you're wrong POG, I currently coach the U6, 8, 10 and 12 football teams in my club aswell as the U21 and senior teams. I play with the junior football team and could play for the senior team except for the fact that I coach them. I'm also heavily involved in Sigerson football and financially support all GAA activity whenever I can regardless of the club or county. I apologise if that comes across as some sort of boast but I'm only trying to give context to my opinion. But over the past number of years I have come to the conclusion that club teams would be better off without their county players. That you automatically think that that makes you a truer GAA man than me speaks volumes for you rather than me. IC players put so much time and effort into the county team that it is unfair to expect them to train and play for their clubs during their time off from the couny team. It is also unfair for club players to be at the beck and call of the IC manager. IMO it is time for the club player top go his own way and let the county player play at his rightful leve and have club players play regular footballl.

QuoteThere's going to be a new Cork president who although anti grant is a realist and realises like others that he has to back down in the face of the Donal Og, Sean Og and most recently Zulu Og - The Cork lads have reallt shown the way.

It's time we became like them and realise that whatwever the Cork players and posters say, it is best just to go along with it.

Taking county players away from the clubs is a silly idea. Rugby did this - look at the state of club rugby.
Zulu wants county players simply to play for their counties - how many games a year would players from the weaker counties get per year ? And as you have all the answers Zulu,how much could you afford to pay them ?

OM that is a rubbish post laced with childish sarcasim, your comparison to rugby is pointless and well off the mark, underage rugby has never been as strong. I'm not from Cork by the way and if you are so concerned about club players why are you bothered about how many games IC players from weak counties would get?

QuoteThat's where you're wrong POG, I currently coach the U6, 8, 10 and 12 football teams in my club aswell as the U21 and senior teams. I play with the junior football team and could play for the senior team except for the fact that I coach them. I'm also heavily involved in Sigerson football and financially support all GAA activity whenever I can regardless of the club or county. I apologise if that comes across as some sort of boast but I'm only trying to give context to my opinion. But over the past number of years I have come to the conclusion that club teams would be better off without their county players. That you automatically think that that makes you a truer GAA man than me speaks volumes for you rather than me. IC players put so much time and effort into the county team that it is unfair to expect them to train and play for their clubs during their time off from the couny team. It is also unfair for club players to be at the beck and call of the IC manager. IMO it is time for the club player top go his own way and let the county player play at his rightful leve and have club players play regular footballl.

I didn't comment at all on who was a truer gaa man. 
God love the IC players  ::) Lets not forget it's club players who have the rougher deal here and they aren't getting cash for it. 
It's time that fixtures were addressed but there's no chance of that because it would actually make sense!
SO you think IC players should only play with the county, sure that would only be a handful of games a year - a majority of them, if it weren't for clubs, would have a long summer but with all their yapping and whinging maybe that's what they want. 

The GAA are becoming a joke and an embarrassment - we haven't a decent rule book, if a player actually serves his suspension it makes the headlines, the club scene is dying on it's arse and we think we're great because we've TV deals and some new logo - talk about building a house with straw!

QuoteThe GAA are becoming a joke and an embarrassment - we haven't a decent rule book, if a player actually serves his suspension it makes the headlines, the club scene is dying on it's arse and we think we're great because we've TV deals and some new logo - talk about building a house with straw!

Agree 100%.

QuoteI didn't comment at all on who was a truer gaa man.

In fairness POG you did suggest it.

QuoteGod love the IC players   Lets not forget it's club players who have the rougher deal here and they aren't getting cash for it. 

I'm not sure they are POG but if the govt. are willing to give money to any GAA man I'll not complain.

QuoteSO you think IC players should only play with the county, sure that would only be a handful of games a year - a majority of them, if it weren't for clubs, would have a long summer but with all their yapping and whinging maybe that's what they want. 

I don't necessarily think they should but I do think that it may be coming and it may not be a bad thing, we are probably the only sports organisation that asks the best players to compete at various levels and then gives out to them if they complain. Remember that many lads are dual players at club level an IC player can be expected to train and play for at least 3 seperate teams in a given year. Would it be so bad if club players could play their championship without having to worry about how their county team got on in the AI?

QuoteIn fairness POG you did suggest it.

At no stage did I suggest it, maybe you could point it out where I did.  If I thought I'd say it!

Quote
I don't necessarily think they should but I do think that it may be coming and it may not be a bad thing, we are probably the only sports organisation that asks the best players to compete at various levels and then gives out to them if they complain. Remember that many lads are dual players at club level an IC player can be expected to train and play for at least 3 seperate teams in a given year. Would it be so bad if club players could play their championship without having to worry about how their county team got on in the AI?

We ack IC players to play IC and at club - I'd be more worried about the youngester playing, maybe minor, under 21, senior and schools/colleges football, another issue that needs addressing, but sure once again you'd think the IC players had it the toughest.  A large majority of IC players will only play the league and a couple of championship games in the summer so I don't think it's too much to ask that they go back to the club - Id say club players actually play more games than IC players.  That said I think I'd welcome a split in the organisation because I'm sick to the teeth of listening to yapping, crying IC players and an organisation led by complete imbeciles and as it is now if it wasn't for the club scene I'd be completely finished with the GAA.

The association changes fundamentally though Zulu- that's the point you're missing. Under your scenario where clubs don't exist for county players you get a professional transfer market and professional players with cork players playing for dublin, kerry for galway etc etc. They don;t have to worry about club championship so Dessie and Co will argue that there is no requirement for the amateur status.
There is no need for the grassroots to be supported by the parent organisation ie the GAA. Since the then "professional" players generate all the income and that they don't have a club allegiance or any particular county allegiance - then they will claim they are entitled to a serious cut of all gate receipts since the people are there to watch them and Gaa clubs will get next to nothing.
County players playing for their clubs is the glue that binds the association together. I can see the idea behind what you're saying but i've seen it with AIL rugby and its been a disaster , an absolute disaster. The clubs get next to nothing from the IRFU anymore because the IRFU have to pay the players. They are left struggling to raise funds with gates of less than your average senior club championship game in Dublin. Nobody has any interest in the club rugby game because they watch the provincial teams. Just look at Limerick rugby- shannon used to get 10,000 at club games -they now get 300.
If the county players are removed from the club scene- it will go the same way - absolutely 100% that is the way it will go. Bar the die-hards the club scene will die a death. The county scene will be reduced to 12 teams, made up of full time professionals, with a healthy transfer market and the association that we had will be gone. But sure it;s on its way anyway.

Lads I know what you're saying and I agree with much of it but I do think we need to address where we are going and how we want to get there. The problem is that we are all coming from slightly different perspectives, POG is coming from the 6 counties, Indiana is coming from Dublin and I'm coming from Munster. Not only that but different counties from the same province can have different objectives. I just feel that we need to be realistic and sooner or later that will mean a seperation of club and county football and hurling. And while I accept that that may lead to a semi-professional IC scene maybe that is the only viable option. For the record I'm entirely opposed to a professional GAA and I'm only trying to paint a possible future scenario.

QuoteLads I know what you're saying and I agree with much of it but I do think we need to address where we are going and how we want to get there.

Look there are a number of issues that need addressing, but will it happen? probably not, we just keep burying our heads in the sand and hope the problems go away and I'm not even talking about the GPA.  We'll probably start to talk about them when it's too late. 

Indiana is right. That's where we're going. Its just a pity it will happen without a proper debate or decision to go there. A small % of the GAA membership will force their agenda along 'til we end up there and not enough people will stand up and shout stop. At least Zulu has the honesty to say that he thinks county players shouldn't play for their clubs.

QuoteCounty players only playing county football is nonsense. That'll never happen.

It's happening already to a large degree, like I said we all come from different backgrounds so some of you might have a different experience but I haven't seen any of our county players yet. And even if they did turn up I'd tell them to just watch the session as they will benefit more from the break than the training. I should clarify that I don't want county players to only play county but I think it might be coming and there are advantages for the clubs if it does. As a club player and coach I'm sick to death of going from one week to the next without knowing if we are playing or not. And if the county team draw a championship game the whole thing goes to pot, we are the only sport in the world where the very best players are expected to continue playing simultaneously at the top level and a lower level. This also has the effect of increasing the levels of prepartion that club teams have to engage in, I'm not saying seperating club and county is the solution but I am saying it should be on the table, to not consider it would be foolish.

But could this not just mean the strongest clubs in each county being amongst the weakest?  Imagine Crossmaglen without the Armagh county players - would they be winning 12 county titles in a row?  Similarly, what kind of force would Clontibret be without the Monaghan contingent? Examples could go on and on.  Could this not lead to serious resentment?

QuoteI'm sick to death of going from one week to the next without knowing if we are playing or not. And if the county team draw a championship game the whole thing goes to pot

I would say that's more of a fixture issue that needs addressing.
You keep saying that we're there only sport that expects players to play at two levels, rugby and soccer, to name two, expect there players to play at club and international level and expect their players to balance those commitments - what's wrong with the GAA doing the same?  I can't see how it is feasible to have an IC tier alone when most players will only play the league games and maybe only two championship games. 

QuoteI would say that's more of a fixture issue that needs addressing.
 

Well yes that is certainly part of the problem but with minor, U21 and senior IC championships running through the summer it can be hard for CB's to fix games with any confidence. And if the senior county team are going well then the whole thing is often shut down until they are knocked out.

QuoteYou keep saying that we're there only sport that expects players to play at two levels, rugby and soccer, to name two, expect there players to play at club and international level and expect their players to balance those commitments - what's wrong with the GAA doing the same?

In fairness POG there is no comparison there. For starters the other two are professional sports and secondly the world cup etc. are played during the club off season. Anyway you seem to be looking at this from only the inter county players perspective, I think it is the club player who will really benefit from having a set season that can be played regardless of who his county team is doing. 

QuoteI can't see how it is feasible to have an IC tier alone when most players will only play the league games and maybe only two championship games.

Well obviously it would entail a changing of the current structures, maybe playing the league on a home and away basis with the All Ireland played on a strict knock out basis.

QuoteWell yes that is certainly part of the problem but with minor, U21 and senior IC championships running through the summer it can be hard for CB's to fix games with any confidence. And if the senior county team are going well then the whole thing is often shut down until they are knocked out.

It's not a CB problem anymore it's an area the GAA, as a whole, needs to address immediately because it can't last much longer. 

QuoteIn fairness POG there is no comparison there. For starters the other two are professional sports and secondly the world cup etc. are played during the club off season. Anyway you seem to be looking at this from only the inter county players perspective, I think it is the club player who will really benefit from having a set season that can be played regardless of who his county team is doing.

I fully realise the annoyance of a club player but it's hardly fair on a club who have developed players only to lose them.  Rubgy and Soccer have their fixtures sorted out to accomodate players playing in both codes and there's no reason the GAA can't do the same.  For example, we can easily introduce extra time to all championship games meaning very few would need to be replayed, this would sovle a lot of problems but as usual all we're interested in is the money a replay will generate! That's not before we talk about going back to a simple knockout championship which would again solve a lot of problems but again we're only interested in the cash. 
As you said we need to decide where we want to go because the current situation won't last and that's even before we talk about pay for play.

We are an association obsessed with money. Yes this money goes back into the clubs but is the way things are set up at the moment healthy for the association as a whole?
We need to reduce the inter county season to five months and have a separate club season which lasts five months and a two month off season. Our obsession with the inter county game and its promotion is doing us more harm than good.
Yesterday at Congres Clare proposed that the All Ireland finals in football and hurling be finished by the first Sunday in September to free up more times for clubs. Director General Duffy spoke on this and said it was bad because promoting the sports was so important. Rubbish.There is at least a four wee break between the all ireland semis and final for each team. How are we promoting the game in these weeks? Shorten the season and have less breaks between games, simple solution.
Two separate seasons would allow county players to play for their clubs and give them the same commitment that they give their counties. People say the standard would drop but I doubt it and if anything I think a system such as I have outlined would benefit players and proling their careers. Wat is the average age of an inter county squad now. Compare it to twenty years ago. We are on the road to the dissolution of our clubs and the complete burnout of our 'best resources' - our county players.

Quote from: Zulu on April 13, 2008, 12:38:44 AM

QuoteZulu I think you're comments just speak volumes about your attitude, many in the gaa, myself included, would be screaming out for something to be done to address the issues in club football/hurling -  one of them being to allow county players to play a bigger part in their clubs.

That's where you're wrong POG, I currently coach the U6, 8, 10 and 12 football teams in my club aswell as the U21 and senior teams. I play with the junior football team and could play for the senior team except for the fact that I coach them. I'm also heavily involved in Sigerson football and financially support all GAA activity whenever I can regardless of the club or county. I apologise if that comes across as some sort of boast but I'm only trying to give context to my opinion. But over the past number of years I have come to the conclusion that club teams would be better off without their county players. That you automatically think that that makes you a truer GAA man than me speaks volumes for you rather than me. IC players put so much time and effort into the county team that it is unfair to expect them to train and play for their clubs during their time off from the couny team. It is also unfair for club players to be at the beck and call of the IC manager. IMO it is time for the club player top go his own way and let the county player play at his rightful leve and have club players play regular footballl.

QuoteThere's going to be a new Cork president who although anti grant is a realist and realises like others that he has to back down in the face of the Donal Og, Sean Og and most recently Zulu Og - The Cork lads have reallt shown the way.

It's time we became like them and realise that whatwever the Cork players and posters say, it is best just to go along with it.

Taking county players away from the clubs is a silly idea. Rugby did this - look at the state of club rugby.
Zulu wants county players simply to play for their counties - how many games a year would players from the weaker counties get per year ? And as you have all the answers Zulu,how much could you afford to pay them ?

OM that is a rubbish post laced with childish sarcasim, your comparison to rugby is pointless and well off the mark, underage rugby has never been as strong. I'm not from Cork by the way and if you are so concerned about club players why are you bothered about how many games IC players from weak counties would get?

I apologise Zulu but that is a boast and is only put forward to excuse your " I know it all" attitude on the subject. Just beacuse you coach every team in the club doesn't entitle you to speak authoritively on each and every subject that is debated ! And by the way, why don't you give somebody else a chance to coach a team ? You might then have to see around you to realise what is going on in the real world !  ;)

Interesting debate lads. I haven't contributed for a while, but it's good to see good points being raised on both sides, and a general respect for the 'other' view apart from a few of the usual suspects. Maybe the GAABoard isn't dead yet.

As to the topic, I've said on numerous occasions now that I don't have a real problem with County players being recognised by the governement, independently, as a group of elite sportsmen. I think most of us would also subscribe to that view. If the Government were paying €2,000 or €10,000 directly into the players bank accounts via the GPA or the Sports Council, I'd not have a major problem with it, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge them it.

However, my concerns have been, and continue to be, that the GAA is now an active participant in the payment of these monies. It has now embedded a culture of de facto elitism in the GAA by an unbelievably convoluted and murky mechanism by these so-called 'expenses'. Now the concept of expense, from somebody who works in Corporate Ireland plc. and does a bit of work-related travelling every so often, is that you are re-imbursed for expenses pertaining to your business travel. Be that Airfare, Hotels, Meals, Taxis, Roaming Charges, etc. etc.

Nowhere in my company expense policy, or any other company I know of, are the expenses dependent on your performance. I don't suddenly get €1 a mile expense if I get an outstanding (or elite, if you will) grade in my performance review. Expenses are just that, a reimbursement of expenses, receipted and regardless of whether the sale was made, the project was a success or whatever.

Now, back to the GAA. It appears that this concept of expenses has been twisted to mean bonus payment based on the level you reach. That is a funny definition of expenses in my book, and it is a blatant fudge to address the very valid concerns that the one off grants payments seriously undermined the amateur ethos, regardless of what Dessie Farrell or Nicky Brennan say.

I am one of those who feels that this probably does, to a certain extent at least, maintain the amateur status quo, in contrast to the original grants concept where the GAA paid out the Government money to the players, but it has been fudged now into an area that is going to be even HARDER to roll back on if/when the Government decides to curtail or remove the money, never mind increase it.

The Grants, version 1.2, were a much more obvious threat to amateurism, but this version, 1.3, is more insidious I think. And I'm afraid I'm one of the 'thin end of the wedge' lads. The GAA has shown a remarkably flexible spine in bending to the demands of the GPA, fair play to Dessie and the lads, and I feel that this is one more of those 'battles' that Dessie mentioned a few years ago on the road to an organisation, or organisations, outlined by INDIANA, magpie seanie and a couple of others.

Zulu, I know where you are coming from wrt the inter county players and their availability to the clubs, or more accurately their non-availability. I think you are solving the wrong problem though. By cutting them adrift from the clubs you are simply setting the whole semi-pro/pro agenda another step down the road. The solution is to come up with a proper approach to fixture scheduling, and to stick to it. Maybe look at the way county championships are structured. I would be against forcing players to choose whether they are county men or club men. They are club men first, and county men because they are lucky enough to be selected. They will start out as club men, and finish as club men. If they are lucky they will have a stint at county level as well, but their ties will always be to the club, and they should not be forced to sever them for 5-10 years simply because they play county ball.

Zulu...fair play to you giving that much time to your club....a massive contribution by any standards...repsect. A few questions for you......does no one else in your club want to take any of the teams, I am trying to understand why you are involved with so many teams within one club....do you actually do the coaching for all of these teams or are you the dreaded water man.....or are you the chairman (or chairmans son) who feels they can trust no one else to do the job. Loook forward to understanding why you have so much on your plate...amybe everybody in your club are lazy hounds and don't want to put the work in to see the club improving

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 10:00:49 AM
Interesting debate lads. I haven't contributed for a while, but it's good to see good points being raised on both sides, and a general respect for the 'other' view apart from a few of the usual suspects. Maybe the GAABoard isn't dead yet.

As to the topic, I've said on numerous occasions now that I don't have a real problem with County players being recognised by the governement, independently, as a group of elite sportsmen. I think most of us would also subscribe to that view. If the Government were paying €2,000 or €10,000 directly into the players bank accounts via the GPA or the Sports Council, I'd not have a major problem with it, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge them it.
However, my concerns have been, and continue to be, that the GAA is now an active participant in the payment of these monies. It has now embedded a culture of de facto elitism in the GAA by an unbelievably convoluted and murky mechanism by these so-called 'expenses'. Now the concept of expense, from somebody who works in Corporate Ireland plc. and does a bit of work-related travelling every so often, is that you are re-imbursed for expenses pertaining to your business travel. Be that Airfare, Hotels, Meals, Taxis, Roaming Charges, etc. etc.

Nowhere in my company expense policy, or any other company I know of, are the expenses dependent on your performance. I don't suddenly get €1 a mile expense if I get an outstanding (or elite, if you will) grade in my performance review. Expenses are just that, a reimbursement of expenses, receipted and regardless of whether the sale was made, the project was a success or whatever.
Now, back to the GAA. It appears that this concept of expenses has been twisted to mean bonus payment based on the level you reach. That is a funny definition of expenses in my book, and it is a blatant fudge to address the very valid concerns that the one off grants payments seriously undermined the amateur ethos, regardless of what Dessie Farrell or Nicky Brennan say.

I am one of those who feels that this probably does, to a certain extent at least, maintain the amateur status quo, in contrast to the original grants concept where the GAA paid out the Government money to the players, but it has been fudged now into an area that is going to be even HARDER to roll back on if/when the Government decides to curtail or remove the money, never mind increase it.

The Grants, version 1.2, were a much more obvious threat to amateurism, but this version, 1.3, is more insidious I think. And I'm afraid I'm one of the 'thin end of the wedge' lads. The GAA has shown a remarkably flexible spine in bending to the demands of the GPA, fair play to Dessie and the lads, and I feel that this is one more of those 'battles' that Dessie mentioned a few years ago on the road to an organisation, or organisations, outlined by INDIANA, magpie seanie and a couple of others.

Zulu, I know where you are coming from wrt the inter county players and their availability to the clubs, or more accurately their non-availability. I think you are solving the wrong problem though. By cutting them adrift from the clubs you are simply setting the whole semi-pro/pro agenda another step down the road. The solution is to come up with a proper approach to fixture scheduling, and to stick to it. Maybe look at the way county championships are structured. I would be against forcing players to choose whether they are county men or club men. They are club men first, and county men because they are lucky enough to be selected. They will start out as club men, and finish as club men. If they are lucky they will have a stint at county level as well, but their ties will always be to the club, and they should not be forced to sever them for 5-10 years simply because they play county ball.

All very good points and well made and I'm in total agreement AZ -

The idea of cutting the IC players loose from clubs is plain silly and doesn't contribute in any way - Zulu and Dessie and the rest have in their minds an organisation like the Professional Soccer Players asociation in England where the players are in a union and pay a fee to Dessie every year to represent them.

I wouldn't dream of putting words in Zulu's mouth, or letters on his keyboard for that matter ;D, but I think he is approaching it from a different angle to what I suspect is Dessie's motivation. I think Zulu is a frustrated club manager who is saying he'd be better off without his county men, than spinning his wheels waiting for them to be available for some 'possible' fixture 3 weeks ahead. unless the County team win a match in the meantime, there's a traiining camp on, or a white goat crosses the country lane at a 45 degree angle.

I think the solution he proposes is baby and bathwater time, but I don't think he would be an advocate of professionalism in the way I suspect Dessie is. I could be wrong about that, and I could be wrong about Dessie too.

Quote from: orangeman on April 15, 2008, 09:24:12 AM
I apologise Zulu but that is a boast and is only put forward to excuse your " I know it all" attitude on the subject. Just beacuse you coach every team in the club doesn't entitle you to speak authoritively on each and every subject that is debated !

At least he has an excuse...

Quote from: Uladh on April 15, 2008, 10:34:58 AM

Quote from: orangeman on April 15, 2008, 09:24:12 AM
I apologise Zulu but that is a boast and is only put forward to excuse your " I know it all" attitude on the subject. Just beacuse you coach every team in the club doesn't entitle you to speak authoritively on each and every subject that is debated !

At least he has an excuse...

;) :D ;D ;D

This will be us!!!
Players will play for their counties only the county boards will probably split into club level and county board level, ultimately leaving 2 different admin boards.  Players will get the dough creamed off from their playing in a semi pro / pro intercounty set up.   Elite players will be trained with county development squads and brought through, contracted or discarded post 18.  The GAA will take some of their competitve games to New York, Philadelphia, and other areas around the globe.  Hurling will be left to be dealt with as the clubs are.
Its NFL but not as we know it!   
The realtionship between the clubs and the counties will be destroyed by this, but then again there are a number of county board men and represenmtative who give f/a back to their clubs at the moment.  Why should the county players be any different?
As for being despondant we have lost the jewell in our crown, we might as well marry our games to the AFL because in reality it wasnt the few rule differences, it was the idealogy which set us apart.  Fair play to Dessie, Nicky and the boys.

Quote from: feetofflames on April 15, 2008, 11:33:43 AM
This will be us!!!
Players will play for their counties only the county boards will probably split into club level and county board level, ultimately leaving 2 different admin boards.  Players will get the dough creamed off from their playing in a semi pro / pro intercounty set up.   Elite players will be trained with county development squads and brought through, contracted or discarded post 18.  The GAA will take some of their competitve games to New York, Philadelphia, and other areas around the globe.  Hurling will be left to be dealt with as the clubs are.
Its NFL but not as we know it!   
The realtionship between the clubs and the counties will be destroyed by this, but then again there are a number of county board men and represenmtative who give f/a back to their clubs at the moment.  Why should the county players be any different?
As for being despondant we have lost the jewell in our crown, we might as well marry our games to the AFL because in reality it wasnt the few rule differences, it was the idealogy which set us apart.  Fair play to Dessie, Nicky and the boys.

I honestly can't see this happening. At least without a major split within the association that would paralyse it, and render many county boards powerless due to lack of volunteers.

I think there's general agreement that the manipulation of the branding of these grants has been grubby and underhand. the GAA certainly have not covered themselves in glory with that or the handling of getting an input from the general GAA membership. for what its worth, i think the original proposal would have got majority approval but would not have stood up to rule 11 scrutiny from the minority who were determined to oppose the funding in whatever form.

As a supporter of the general principle from the outset it is easy to see how the Croke Park's thinking developed... obviously increasingly influenced by solicitors and the wording of rules. The GAA agreed in principle last autumn to the proposal of government monetary awards to IC players without analysing how they would bring it inside the current rules. Personally, i was happy with that and assumed that those who should know about these things would look after the detail. They eventually did but not as smoothly or coherently as i'd have expected.

The arguments since that date have been based on intricate rules and basically symantics but the actual argument has always been one of accepting or not of the original principle. The government are funding basic sports grants for what is the only section of our association we have ring fenced as "elite". Using the the rule book and lawyer speak to oppose a scheme which should be argued for on funadamentals pure and simple was disengenuous in my book but maybe those involved felt it was their best hope of success.

The flagship argument against became the claim of professionalism and the contravention of rule 11. For that reason, the DRA's ruling effectively ended any hope of the scheme being reversed. In my book, "of one belief" diluted their message when they sought to win on technicalities and should have fought the fight on the principle of accepting any sort of money for any member in any circumstance and convincning the grassroots that the idea was fundamentally wron. In my view, the Grassroots were nowhere near convinced on that point and largely indifferent to the whole hullabaloo.

I also agree that the "expenses" dress the GAA have adorned the grant money with is more than a little uncomfortable. i suppose pragmatism dictated that some vehicle strictly within the rule book had to be found and to be fair to the top brass they are old hands at sleight of hand like this. I guess the basic defence of increasing expenses for teams who go further is simply that their championship term is extended and they incur more expense the further it goes. Arguing about who drives to training, national or civil service rates or breaking out the calculator for grocery costs and lost overtime is missing the point. Its a means to an end and i'm not sure anyone is that worried about the detail.

I also agree with az that this version makes things more difficult to roll back. If it rears its head, trouble is going to  come because the GAA have now recognised that this is the level of expenses an elite amateur player, training to current IC standards and attracting thousands of paying customers every time they field, can expect. If the Government funding goes (and i still very much doubt it ever will), the GPA can then argue that the GAA must meet the expenses that they have officially recognised so players are not out of pocket. as i say i don't believe it'll happen but its a stick the GAA have handed the GPA for future use.

On the classification of players into club and county categories, i find some of the terminology and the attitude to them disappointing. They're all club players until elivated for whatever brief period of time they can be some further worth squeezed out of them by a county team. barring injury, virtually no player retires from county and club at the same time. Granted, the county will generally take the best of a player when they can but it has always been that every club strove to be privileged enough to help the county. the traditional aims and aspirations of clubs and just as importantly individuals remain the same i believe. Young lads grow up wanting to play for their club then aspire to wear the county jersey at various levels for whatever fleeting period of time they can. But the club will always be the backbone i believe and i believe county players are no different in mindset from every other member of the association.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 10:00:49 AM

Not often we agree Uladh but I would agree with your usage of the following.

"grubby and underhand. "

QuoteBut the club will always be the backbone

Like in rugby.  ::)

There are several things I'd disagree with in your post and one of them is this -

QuoteIn my book, "of one belief" diluted their message when they sought to win on technicalities and should have fought the fight on the principle of accepting any sort of money for any member in any circumstance and convincning the grassroots that the idea was fundamentally wron. In my view, the Grassroots were nowhere near convinced on that point and largely indifferent to the whole hullabaloo.

I think you are unfair in your criticism. In many counties, including my own, there was no discussion about the so-called grants (lets call them expenses becasue grants would be contrary to rule 11) and the county board just went along with the instructions from Croke Park. How else then can you fight against them? I think its perfectly valid to use any and all structures within the GAA to seek remedy. That's what they are there for. Of one belief were correct that the initially framed proposal was a direct breach of amateurism despite declarations by all and sundry to the contrary. They are owed a debt of gratitude for showing the lengths that the establishment will go to to keep the GPA happy. Congress is supposed to be the supreme decision making body of the GAA - it is now no longer the case.

People like Nickey Brennan are not bad people. They have just given up the fight.

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 15, 2008, 12:08:11 PM

QuoteBut the club will always be the backbone

Like in rugby.  ::)

There are several things I'd disagree with in your post and one of them is this -

QuoteIn my book, "of one belief" diluted their message when they sought to win on technicalities and should have fought the fight on the principle of accepting any sort of money for any member in any circumstance and convincning the grassroots that the idea was fundamentally wron. In my view, the Grassroots were nowhere near convinced on that point and largely indifferent to the whole hullabaloo.

I think you are unfair in your criticism. In many counties, including my own, there was no discussion about the so-called grants (lets call them expenses becasue grants would be contrary to rule 11) and the county board just went along with the instructions from Croke Park. How else then can you fight against them? I think its perfectly valid to use any and all structures within the GAA to seek remedy. That's what they are there for. Of one belief were correct that the initially framed proposal was a direct breach of amateurism despite declarations by all and sundry to the contrary. They are owed a debt of gratitude for showing the lengths that the establishment will go to to keep the GPA happy. Congress is supposed to be the supreme decision making body of the GAA - it is now no longer the case.

People like Nickey Brennan are not bad people. They have just given up the fight.

I wouldn't agree entirely that they have given up the fight - I would instead contend that they backed down in the face of stike action threatened by Dessie and as the GAA were in the middle of negotiating a huge sponsorship and TV rights package, they had to bend over backwards and abandon all principles that they previously held dear.

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 15, 2008, 12:08:11 PM
Congress is supposed to be the supreme decision making body of the GAA - it is now no longer the case.

People like Nickey Brennan are not bad people. They have just given up the fight.

Because you happen to disagree with a congress decision?

Can you so easily dismiss the charachter and intentions of some of the most highly regarded people in the association simply because they, along with the majority of members, disagree with you?

Uladh, its not so long since you personally attacked my own "charachter and intentions" in response to my criticism of the 17/3/08 grants/expenses scheme, which you now criticise as "grubby and underhand" I'm puzzled to say the least.  :-\

Quote from: Uladh on April 15, 2008, 12:47:45 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 15, 2008, 12:08:11 PM
Congress is supposed to be the supreme decision making body of the GAA - it is now no longer the case.

People like Nickey Brennan are not bad people. They have just given up the fight.

Because you happen to disagree with a congress decision?

Can you so easily dismiss the charachter and intentions of some of the most highly regarded people in the association simply because they, along with the majority of members, disagree with you?

Uladh you have some good points and have expressed them well - however I believe that all along you have this misplaced belief that the majority of GAA members are in favour of what is "pay for play", "expenses", "grants" or whatever confabulated term you wish you employ depending on the circumstances.

How do you know for an absolute fact that we who are opposed to pay for play, expenses, grants etc etc are in a tiny minority ?

cornafean - i don't recall that but given your posting history i'd be pretty confident you'd have given plenty of reason to question your character.
I could be completely wrong here and if so i'm sure seanie will say so cos he's a big boy... if Brennan and Duffy had frontlined an opposition to the grants would that have been enough for them to have retained their previous good standing within the GAA in your eyes?

OM - there are no absolute certainties outside of a referendum so i can only go on my personal experiences. i have documented this already on this and similar threads. since january but here goes: i've regualrly attended club and county games, club meetings of various committees, various age group trainings and social club events in the newry / s armagh vicinity. the longest discussion i've ever heard on the grants issue has been on who yer man mark conway is and where did he pop up from. You can hang me on this next line but the ordiary gaa man really doesn't have an opinion on this. we are concerned about our clubs and the work ongoing and coming up. we chat about the county team and their prospects but thats it. thats my experience.

i'd be interested in seriel grump and president of the anti everything bar the bridge (which includes grants) president POG's comments on the matter. his club should be reflective in outlook of most s armagh clubs.

it isn't indicative of the grassroots. The bottom is this -this was rail-roaded through to avoid the players going on strike for the summer- that was the thinly veiled ultimatium by the GPA. The thought of empty stadiums during the summer concerned the gaa top brass to the extent that they meekly gave in. As a result Brennan has just postponed the stand off and will be able to say "it didn't happen on my watch".
At some point (and this will happen)- there will be a stand off between inter county players in general and the GAA about looking for substantial payment ie- a cut of tv money or gate receipts. The gaa top brass will baulk at the notion and then the real plays begin.THis is inevitable after saturday. I my view i wouldn't have permitted the grants because of what's coming down the line. We'd have been better having the stand off now- because it's going to happen. Once you decide on semi-professionalism you can't stop what will follow because it's a natural progression. In the 80's aussie rules was semi-professional they said professionalism ie million dollar salaries would never happen- look at it now.
The clubs weren't even mandatted nationally on this. The reality is your average clubman like myself simply feels totally removed and disenchanted from the top brass in the association. They don't give a rat's ass about the grassroots or their views- they will do exactly as they bloody well like. The day of the grass-roots member being able to make a difference is long gone. And don't we know it.

Quote from: Uladh on April 15, 2008, 01:21:07 PM

cornafean - i don't recall that but given your posting history i'd be pretty confident you'd have given plenty of reason to question your character.
I could be completely wrong here and if so i'm sure seanie will say so cos he's a big boy... if Brennan and Duffy had frontlined an opposition to the grants would that have been enough for them to have retained their previous good standing within the GAA in your eyes?

OM - there are no absolute certainties outside of a referendum so i can only go on my personal experiences. i have documented this already on this and similar threads. since january but here goes: i've regualrly attended club and county games, club meetings of various committees, various age group trainings and social club events in the newry / s armagh vicinity. the longest discussion i've ever heard on the grants issue has been on who yer man mark conway is and where did he pop up from. You can hang me on this next line but the ordiary gaa man really doesn't have an opinion on this. we are concerned about our clubs and the work ongoing and coming up. we chat about the county team and their prospects but thats it. thats my experience.

i'd be interested in seriel grump and president of the anti everything bar the bridge (which includes grants) president POG's comments on the matter. his club should be reflective in outlook of most s armagh clubs.

Uladh - you're arguments were going well until - " the ordinary gaa man really doesn't have an opinion on this " !!!  ;) All the ground you had made has now been lost with this statement.

Can I offer you my personal experience ? Yes I agree there are some people out there who don't really have an opinion one way or the other, but I would say the majority do hold an opinion, one way or the other - I suppose it depends on where you live etc but I know an awful lot of people who are vehemently opposed to pay for play, expenses, grants etc.

What club does POG belong to ?

The sentiment was that it is not a major issue for the ordinary GAA volunteer. but then you knew that - or should have.

There are hundreds of regular posters on this site. how many have been motivated to post on the grants threads? 40? 50?

POG is a Silverbridge man.

Quote from: Uladh on April 15, 2008, 01:21:07 PM

cornafean - i don't recall that but given your posting history i'd be pretty confident you'd have given plenty of reason to question your character.

well given that you now agree with me on the "grubby and underhand" grants scheme, its reassuring to know that I am in good company on that score.  :D

Quote from: INDIANA on April 15, 2008, 01:30:19 PM
it isn't indicative of the grassroots. The bottom is this -this was rail-roaded through to avoid the players going on strike for the summer- that was the thinly veiled ultimatium by the GPA. The thought of empty stadiums during the summer concerned the gaa top brass to the extent that they meekly gave in. As a result Brennan has just postponed the stand off and will be able to say "it didn't happen on my watch".
At some point (and this will happen)- there will be a stand off between inter county players in general and the GAA about looking for substantial payment ie- a cut of tv money or gate receipts. The gaa top brass will baulk at the notion and then the real plays begin.THis is inevitable after saturday. I my view i wouldn't have permitted the grants because of what's coming down the line. We'd have been better having the stand off now- because it's going to happen. Once you decide on semi-professionalism you can't stop what will follow because it's a natural progression. In the 80's aussie rules was semi-professional they said professionalism ie million dollar salaries would never happen- look at it now.
The clubs weren't even mandatted nationally on this. The reality is your average clubman like myself simply feels totally removed and disenchanted from the top brass in the association. They don't give a rat's ass about the grassroots or their views- they will do exactly as they bloody well like. The day of the grass-roots member being able to make a difference is long gone. And don't we know it.

My sentiments exactly !

Uladh are you saying that the grassroots dont have opinions on this or dont have the right to opinions on this.  I certainly believe you mean the latter.  The GPA ballotted the "membership" of their grouping, the GAA heirarchy didnt give their membership the chance and railroaded this through.  Undoubtedly legally this could yet be exposed but I salute the end of the  dignified democracy seeking campaign of the of one belief representatives who literally exposed the ongoing erosion of democracy in the GAA, who have shown up the GAA top brass for what they were always suspected of being,  and who did this in the face of individuals like Dessie Farrell who ironically wanted to give his crowd a voice whilst he literally told everyone else to shut up - Last weekend in Congress didnt shut up Farrell nor the GPA - they simply shut up the rest of us.  

my take on the whole thing:

we tried we failed. dont think we were ever going to be allowed to win. the reason many gaa members seemingly 'didnt have an opinion' was that they were never asked for one. such was the underhand nature of the entire episode that only for conway et al and a few journalists (mcmanus etc) some gaa members wouldnt even have realised that this issue was serious at all.

now that dessie has got the door open what will he ask for next? my guess is a slice of the tv money.

nicky brennan - dont have any time for the man. best described as the gaa's version of tony blair - didnt start off too bad but shot himself in the foot regarding the big issue. everyone has seen through him as a result and this will be his legacy no matter how hard he tries to dress it up.


all in all i think the whole issue simply represents a problem which not only effects the gaa but the nation as a whole - the country is obsessed by money money money. we now live in a materialistic society where the volunteer is becoming more and more a thing of the past. dessie and the gang are the epirotomy of this progression.

the most recent posts from OM and rrhf are symptomatic of how this "debate" has degenerated. The issue is a general one and at a stretch i can see the legitimacy of the arguments on individuals. How this nitpicking of phrasiology and intention lowers the quality.

It's obvious to anyone with reading skills that i do not think that the ordinary member should not have an opinion. how you think making stuff up will further your cause is beyond me.

Quote from: rrhf on April 15, 2008, 01:49:01 PM
 Undoubtedly legally this could yet be exposed but I salute the end of the  dignified democracy seeking campaign of the of one belief representatives who literally exposed the ongoing erosion of democracy in the GAA, who have shown up the GAA top brass for what they were always suspected of being

for thaey shall be known as peace makers....

rrhf - you are the GAA's equivilent of 1980s Ian Paisley zombie. Full of rhetoric and oob doctrine but never a word of common sense

I propose we park this thread now, save a copy, and have a look at it on the eve of the championship in say 2012. I'd say there'd be some craic looking at it retrospectively. Of course we would have two boards at that stage, the PGAABoard, and the AGAABoard.

Will they be two seperate boards or two pages on the same board?

Quote from: behind the wire on April 15, 2008, 02:00:52 PM
dessie and the gang are the epirotomy of this progression.

In isolated form, could i ask you where your dislike for what i presume is the GPA comes from?

No, we'll all post on the same board but the you and me will have to use different coloured crayons.

az will have a colour of his own of course

Uladh you and your GPA cronies have now in your hands the torch but rather than carry it to a place where it can burn brightly like our own Olympic flame I suspect that you will burn the very fabric of our association to the ground with it.



I dont suspect you guys will be on the board in 2012.  I believe you will have lost interest.  

Quote from: behind the wire on April 15, 2008, 02:00:52 PM
my take on the whole thing:

we tried we failed. dont think we were ever going to be allowed to win. the reason many gaa members seemingly 'didnt have an opinion' was that they were never asked for one. such was the underhand nature of the entire episode that only for conway et al and a few journalists (mcmanus etc) some gaa members wouldnt even have realised that this issue was serious at all.

now that dessie has got the door open what will he ask for next? my guess is a slice of the tv money.

nicky brennan - dont have any time for the man. best described as the gaa's version of tony blair - didnt start off too bad but shot himself in the foot regarding the big issue. everyone has seen through him as a result and this will be his legacy no matter how hard he tries to dress it up.


all in all i think the whole issue simply represents a problem which not only effects the gaa but the nation as a whole - the country is obsessed by money money money. we now live in a materialistic society where the volunteer is becoming more and more a thing of the past. dessie and the gang are the epirotomy of this progression.

Good post. I agree with the part in bold in particular. Is is worth saying tho that if Dessie and the gang are the epitome of this then they are simpley the epitome of the Nation as a whole and the responsibility is with society as much as it is with Dessie and the gang.

Quote from: rrhf on April 15, 2008, 02:15:24 PM
Uladh you and your GPA cronies have now in your hands the torch but rather than carry it to a place where it can burn brightly like our own Olympic flame I suspect that you will burn the very fabric of our association to the ground with it.



I dont suspect you guys will be on the board in 2012.  I believe you will have lost interest.  

Yeah because only people with your viewpoint have real interest in the GAA.
Your holier than thou shite makes me sick. If i were in the anti grant camp i'd turn coats just to argue with the like o ye

Quote from: rrhf on April 15, 2008, 02:15:24 PM
Uladh you and your GPA cronies have now in your hands the torch but rather than carry it to a place where it can burn brightly like our own Olympic flame I suspect that you will burn the very fabric of our association to the ground with it.



I dont suspect you guys will be on the board in 2012. I believe you will have lost interest.  

No they won't ! There'll be money to be made !  ;) :D ;D

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 15, 2008, 02:12:05 PM
Will they be two seperate boards or two pages on the same board?

Two seperate boards of course. Some of us will be paid for our high quality elite posts on the Pro board. The rest of ye scrubbers can keep lining your pitches on the poxy amateur one :)

Quote from: Uladh on April 15, 2008, 02:20:24 PM

Quote from: rrhf on April 15, 2008, 02:15:24 PM
Uladh you and your GPA cronies have now in your hands the torch but rather than carry it to a place where it can burn brightly like our own Olympic flame I suspect that you will burn the very fabric of our association to the ground with it.



I dont suspect you guys will be on the board in 2012.  I believe you will have lost interest.  

Yeah because only people with your viewpoint have real interest in the GAA.
Your holier than thou shite makes me sick. If i were in the anti grant camp i'd turn coats just to argue with the like o ye

Now he's rattled rrhf ! Keep at it !  ;D ;D

Quote from: rrhf on April 15, 2008, 02:15:24 PM
Uladh you and your GPA cronies have now in your hands the torch but rather than carry it to a place where it can burn brightly like our own Olympic flame I suspect that you will burn the very fabric of our association to the ground with it.



I dont suspect you guys will be on the board in 2012.  I believe you will have lost interest.  

As in monetary interest :P

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 02:22:00 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 15, 2008, 02:12:05 PM
Will they be two seperate boards or two pages on the same board?

Two seperate boards of course. Some of us will be paid for our high quality elite posts on the Pro board. The rest of ye scrubbers can keep lining your pitches on the poxy amateur one :)

Can the poxy amateur one qualify for Government Grants Az? I propose to set up an amateur posters asociation and campagin for better facitities such as more smiley faces and fonts. Who's with me?  ;D

good point zabaptista, i do think the problem lies with society in general.


uladh - i have never kept secret my dislike for the GPA and its methods. my resons for harbouring my hatred is due to my unnerving belief that the GPA want abolish the amateur ethos of our association, an ethos which i believe is the core reason for the success of the modern gaa.

i cannot help feel that there is something sinister going on every time dessie opens his mouth (even though it does provide a bit of comedy).

Quote from: Zapatista on April 15, 2008, 02:28:01 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 02:22:00 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 15, 2008, 02:12:05 PM
Will they be two seperate boards or two pages on the same board?

Two seperate boards of course. Some of us will be paid for our high quality elite posts on the Pro board. The rest of ye scrubbers can keep lining your pitches on the poxy amateur one :)

Can the poxy amateur one qualify for Government Grants Az? I propose to set up an amateur posters asociation and campagin for better facitities such as more smiley faces and fonts. Who's with me?  ;D

No, of course not. While ye peons are valued members of blah blah blah, only the elite posters, with their undying dedication, which goes unrecognised, will be deserving of such grants.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 02:29:47 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on April 15, 2008, 02:28:01 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 02:22:00 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 15, 2008, 02:12:05 PM
Will they be two seperate boards or two pages on the same board?

Two seperate boards of course. Some of us will be paid for our high quality elite posts on the Pro board. The rest of ye scrubbers can keep lining your pitches on the poxy amateur one :)

Can the poxy amateur one qualify for Government Grants Az? I propose to set up an amateur posters asociation and campagin for better facitities such as more smiley faces and fonts. Who's with me?  ;D

No, of course not. While ye peons are valued members of blah blah blah, only the elite posters, with their undying dedication, which goes unrecognised, will be deserving of such grants.

Only posters that are as well educated as the pro grants brigade will qualify for pay for play ! An aptitude test will be employed before getting a user name and password on the elite GAA board !

Not an aptitude test. An attitude test.

If you have the 'correct' attitude towards the rest of the elite posters and the unbelievable hardship they go through to entertain literally tens of people with their posts, then you may be deemed suitable. As an associate.

It's invitation only.

Quote from: orangeman on April 15, 2008, 02:37:48 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 02:29:47 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on April 15, 2008, 02:28:01 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 02:22:00 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 15, 2008, 02:12:05 PM
Will they be two seperate boards or two pages on the same board?

Two seperate boards of course. Some of us will be paid for our high quality elite posts on the Pro board. The rest of ye scrubbers can keep lining your pitches on the poxy amateur one :)

Can the poxy amateur one qualify for Government Grants Az? I propose to set up an amateur posters asociation and campagin for better facitities such as more smiley faces and fonts. Who's with me?  ;D

No, of course not. While ye peons are valued members of blah blah blah, only the elite posters, with their undying dedication, which goes unrecognised, will be deserving of such grants.

Only posters that are as well educated as the pro grants brigade will qualify for pay for play ! An aptitude test will be employed before getting a user name and password on the elite GAA board !

Surely higher quality posts will generate higher numbers of viewers leading to bigger sponsorship deals. It is only fair this revenue is distributed after administration (we all know the Mods are getting paid) in the order of whomever scores highest in the aptitude tests getting the most while those who score lowest get the least and those who don't make the cut off point... well... we appreciate them viewing (the advertisements) and are sure they will enjoy the poxy amateur board.

Now you're getting the hang of it. Anyway, here's to 2012 :D

Quote from: Zapatista on April 15, 2008, 02:48:46 PM

Quote from: orangeman on April 15, 2008, 02:37:48 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 02:29:47 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on April 15, 2008, 02:28:01 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 02:22:00 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on April 15, 2008, 02:12:05 PM
Will they be two seperate boards or two pages on the same board?

Two seperate boards of course. Some of us will be paid for our high quality elite posts on the Pro board. The rest of ye scrubbers can keep lining your pitches on the poxy amateur one :)

Can the poxy amateur one qualify for Government Grants Az? I propose to set up an amateur posters asociation and campagin for better facitities such as more smiley faces and fonts. Who's with me?  ;D

No, of course not. While ye peons are valued members of blah blah blah, only the elite posters, with their undying dedication, which goes unrecognised, will be deserving of such grants.

Only posters that are as well educated as the pro grants brigade will qualify for pay for play ! An aptitude test will be employed before getting a user name and password on the elite GAA board !

Surely higher quality posts will generate higher numbers of viewers leading to bigger sponsorship deals. It is only fair this revenue is distributed after administration (we all know the Mods are getting paid) in the order of whomever scores highest in the aptitude tests getting the most while those who score lowest get the least and those who don't make the cut off point... well... we appreciate them viewing (the advertisements) and are sure they will enjoy the poxy amateur board.

Fair dues to Dessie - if he has taught us anything, he has taught us that there's no pint us typing away here and getting nothing for it !

I think we should be paid by the the number of words in the post - overtime rates should apply as well.

Uladh it's nice you ask for my opinion (it's a pity you couldn't leave the snide remarks out of it but we've become use to that with the GPA) but your point has been answered by a few posters nows.  People don't give their opinion because there's never been any discussion at grassroots and they were never asked for their opinion, I don't know anyone (other than some posters on this board) that are in favour of it.  Keep clutching at the straws. 

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 15, 2008, 02:40:06 PM
Not an aptitude test. An attitude test.

If you have the 'correct' attitude towards the rest of the elite posters and the unbelievable hardship they go through to entertain literally tens of people with their posts, then you may be deemed suitable. As an associate.

It's invitation only.

But posting on the club or general interest section will not get you a grant, you need to post on the county section a set amount of times per year.
And it only counts during championship season, posts on the county threads about league games dont count.

I'd say there is a majority of the 'grass roots' are opposed to professionalism when it suits them.

I'm against paying players on economic not dogmatic grounds but the rubicon was crossed when WE started paying managers.

Quote from: passedit on April 15, 2008, 07:08:58 PM
I'd say there is a majority of the 'grass roots' are opposed to professionalism when it suits them.

I'm against paying players on economic not dogmatic grounds but the rubicon was crossed when WE started paying managers.

yes, and i'd support moves to end that within the game however it can't be used to justify the payment of players.

How long do you think it'll be when we're saying "the rubicon was crossed when we allowed the grants to players"?

Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 15, 2008, 06:59:04 PM
, I don't know anyone (other than some posters on this board) that are in favour of it. 

About 90% of the Congress Delegates voted in favour.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 15, 2008, 07:37:39 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 15, 2008, 06:59:04 PM
, I don't know anyone (other than some posters on this board) that are in favour of it. 

About 90% of the Congress Delegates voted in favour.

and what?

Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 15, 2008, 07:40:35 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 15, 2008, 07:37:39 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 15, 2008, 06:59:04 PM
, I don't know anyone (other than some posters on this board) that are in favour of it. 

About 90% of the Congress Delegates voted in favour.

and what?

what?

 ::)

QuoteAbout 90% of the Congress Delegates voted in favour.

No they didn't. That was reported but I know from someone who was in the room that about 25-30% voted against it.

If there were that many they would surely have counted the hands ?
The report I read was that it was 8:1 which would bear out general opinion on the issue.

Ther was one report that quote 8:1 alright. One. I spoke to someone who was in the room. Who is this "general opinion"?

Opinions of Irish people,GAA fans, players , officials, club activists that i have come across over the last 5 or 6 months.
The only place I came across any kind of opposition was on this forum. :-\
However the Silent majority won the day as it usually does when the oul ballot box (metaphorically speaking in this case) takes over.

so you think it'll stop now rossfan tht the GPA will be happy with 3k per player for the next 15 years? me bollox.

As it's the Government that's giving the players assistance with their expenses I dont suppose there's a whole lot the GPA can do about it.
And why are you calling yourself a bollox? ;D

Some papers said the vote against the grants was as much as 1/3 or 40%. Others said as little as 35 or so votes.

Mark Conway was quoted as saying he was promised a handcount and this was reneged on.

If this so, how can we state categorically?

All we do now is that at least 10 counties were mandated to vote against beforehand. If they didn't all raise their hands, they must have known it was inevitable, after all the 'support the president or else' politicking that was going on for weeks beforehand.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 15, 2008, 08:12:33 PM
If there were that many they would surely have counted the hands ?
The report I read was that it was 8:1 which would bear out general opinion on the issue.

How many voted to get rid of John Maughan ???  ;)

Even maughan voted for his own removal

Quote from: Maximus Marillius on April 15, 2008, 10:08:40 AM
Zulu...fair play to you giving that much time to your club....a massive contribution by any standards...repsect. A few questions for you......does no one else in your club want to take any of the teams, I am trying to understand why you are involved with so many teams within one club....do you actually do the coaching for all of these teams or are you the dreaded water man.....or are you the chairman (or chairmans son) who feels they can trust no one else to do the job. Loook forward to understanding why you have so much on your plate...amybe everybody in your club are lazy hounds and don't want to put the work in to see the club improving

zulu?

Quote from: Maximus Marillius on April 17, 2008, 10:22:03 AM

Quote from: Maximus Marillius on April 15, 2008, 10:08:40 AM
Zulu...fair play to you giving that much time to your club....a massive contribution by any standards...repsect. A few questions for you......does no one else in your club want to take any of the teams, I am trying to understand why you are involved with so many teams within one club....do you actually do the coaching for all of these teams or are you the dreaded water man.....or are you the chairman (or chairmans son) who feels they can trust no one else to do the job. Loook forward to understanding why you have so much on your plate...amybe everybody in your club are lazy hounds and don't want to put the work in to see the club improving

zulu?

He's too busy coaching all those teams, word has reached us that he has packed in the board !  ;)

To be honest, I don't see why he should answer that question, or what it's got to do with it. Maybe he's a workaholic. Maybe he really enjoys doing it. Maybe he's a shit player. Maybe he's an egomaniac. Maybe there is no one else doing it. Maybe he's an excellent coach.

I don't think it's relevant to the debate here though. Why even ask the question in that context?

Why...because for anyone who does that much deserves a pat on the back

Okay. But if he doesn't answer, why badger him? Just give him the pat on the back. :D

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 17, 2008, 10:31:57 AM
Okay. But if he doesn't answer, why badger him? Just give him the pat on the back. :D

I'll second that !  :D :D

Quote from: quidnunc on April 15, 2008, 10:55:02 PM
Some papers said the vote against the grants was as much as 1/3 or 40%.

;D ;D ;D

I just saw a pig flying past the window. :D

Quote from: Rossfan on April 17, 2008, 07:27:29 PM

Quote from: quidnunc on April 15, 2008, 10:55:02 PM
Some papers said the vote against the grants was as much as 1/3 or 40%.

;D ;D ;D

I just saw a pig flying past the window. :D

Everyone voted in favour of pay for play, including Michael Greenan !!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Nobody voted for pay for play. ;)

Quote from: orangeman on April 17, 2008, 11:14:36 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 17, 2008, 07:27:29 PM

Quote from: quidnunc on April 15, 2008, 10:55:02 PM
Some papers said the vote against the grants was as much as 1/3 or 40%.

;D ;D ;D

I just saw a pig flying past the window. :D

Everyone voted in favour of pay for play, including Michael Greenan !!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Pay for play/ expenses = Sinn Fein / IRA - BOTH are inextricably linked.

Quote from: orangeman on April 18, 2008, 11:39:13 AM


Pay for play/ expenses = Sinn Fein / IRA - BOTH are inextricably linked.

Only if you're a GAA Manager ;)

Quote from: Rossfan on April 18, 2008, 12:19:38 PM

Quote from: orangeman on April 18, 2008, 11:39:13 AM


Pay for play/ expenses = Sinn Fein / IRA - BOTH are inextricably linked.

Only if you're a GAA Manager ;)

Congress only approved pay for players, not managers !  ;)

Well said.  The manager thing really needs to be dealt with, OK a lot has gone wrong but a line needs to be drawn in the sand. Anyybody who trangresses after that should be investiagted by a GAA tribunal.

Quote from: feetofflames on April 18, 2008, 01:16:58 PM
Well said.  The manager thing really needs to be dealt with, .... that should be investiagted by a GAA tribunal.

Only problem is the members of the Tribunal would be drawn from the ranks of GAA officials who are actually paying the Managers in the first place.
Can you imagine the Mayo Chairman or Secretary being on a Tribunal investigating whether there were illegal payments made to ..( insert name of prominent Mayo man of your choice.... ;))

Quote from: Rossfan on April 18, 2008, 02:36:20 PM

Quote from: feetofflames on April 18, 2008, 01:16:58 PM
Well said.  The manager thing really needs to be dealt with, .... that should be investiagted by a GAA tribunal.

Only problem is the members of the Tribunal would be drawn from the ranks of GAA officials who are actually paying the Managers in the first place.
Can you imagine the Mayo Chairman or Secretary being on a Tribunal investigating whether there were illegal payments made to ..( insert name of prominent Mayo man of your choice.... ;))

I thought you were a Muaghan fan ?  ;) :D ;D ;D

Quote from: orangeman on April 18, 2008, 02:41:53 PM

I thought you were a Muaghan fan ?  ;) :D ;D ;D

I am now that he's gone  from our fair County.  8) 8) :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

YAHOOOOOOOOOOO !

Quote from: Rossfan on April 18, 2008, 02:44:23 PM

Quote from: orangeman on April 18, 2008, 02:41:53 PM

I thought you were a Muaghan fan ?  ;) :D ;D ;D

I am now that he's gone  from our fair County.  8) 8) :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

YAHOOOOOOOOOOO !

I hope you weren't one of the boys who asked the Garda which dugout Roscommon would be using at the last match that Maughan was in charge of !  ;) ;) :D ;D ;D

Them boys are like the tooth fairy. ;)
Anyway as a regular attender to Kiltoom I knew which dugout he'd be immobile in.

QuoteZulu...fair play to you giving that much time to your club....a massive contribution by any standards...repsect. A few questions for you......does no one else in your club want to take any of the teams, I am trying to understand why you are involved with so many teams within one club....do you actually do the coaching for all of these teams or are you the dreaded water man.....or are you the chairman (or chairmans son) who feels they can trust no one else to do the job. Loook forward to understanding why you have so much on your plate...amybe everybody in your club are lazy hounds and don't want to put the work in to see the club improving

Sorry MM for not replying to your post as I haven't checked in on this topic since posting that. To answer your questions, I coach all those teams largely because no-one else will do it, we are a dual club and the hurling side of things is in the acendency so most 'club men' are only willing to get involved in the hurling. I also love coaching teams so if I could I'd do it I'd do it 8 nights a week, however I'd like to see others take some of the teams as it is never good for one person (or a small group of people) to have too much say, for many reasons.
                           As for your posts OM, I wasn't boasting, in fact I feel it is the least I could do, but as usual you can 'read' between the lines of someones opinion/post and unveil the real meaning of their statements. Myself and Dessie will never be able to pull the wool over your eyes, so GAA men everywhere can rest easy that 'our' dastardly plans to destroy the GAA will never come to pass. 

Quote from: Zulu on April 18, 2008, 10:20:12 PM

QuoteZulu...fair play to you giving that much time to your club....a massive contribution by any standards...repsect. A few questions for you......does no one else in your club want to take any of the teams, I am trying to understand why you are involved with so many teams within one club....do you actually do the coaching for all of these teams or are you the dreaded water man.....or are you the chairman (or chairmans son) who feels they can trust no one else to do the job. Loook forward to understanding why you have so much on your plate...amybe everybody in your club are lazy hounds and don't want to put the work in to see the club improving

Sorry MM for not replying to your post as I haven't checked in on this topic since posting that. To answer your questions, I coach all those teams largely because no-one else will do it, we are a dual club and the hurling side of things is in the acendency so most 'club men' are only willing to get involved in the hurling. I also love coaching teams so if I could I'd do it I'd do it 8 nights a week, however I'd like to see others take some of the teams as it is never good for one person (or a small group of people) to have too much say, for many reasons.
                           As for your posts OM, I wasn't boasting, in fact I feel it is the least I could do, but as usual you can 'read' between the lines of someones opinion/post and unveil the real meaning of their statements. Myself and Dessie will never be able to pull the wool over your eyes, so GAA men everywhere can rest easy that 'our' dastardly plans to destroy the GAA will never come to pass. 

Fair play to you and credit to you as well for spending so much time with teams - and I'm sincere about that.

Regarding your comment about how unhealth it is for one person or a small group to have so much to say, I think you have conceded there that Dessie and his small band have had a disproportionate say in the pay for play issue and in a strange way, you have actually proven my point about the GPA. I know you probably didn't intend for it to come across like this, but own goals count as well !  ;) :D ;D ;D

Fair dues to the Irish Independent. After vehemently campaigning for the GPA Grants/Expenses Scheme for several months, it hasn't taken them too long to recognise the new reality of GAA pay-for-play - at least judging by their article today about the new Roscommon manager

QuoteHis initial task is to complete his backroom team. Donal Casserly is already in place while his other selector will be confirmed later today. The likelihood is that Derek Thompson will team up with Ryan again after the pair worked together on the U-21 panel this year.

Ryan also faces early injury problems with his playing staff -- particularly ace marksman and freetaker Ger Heneghan.

The Castlerea clubman picked up a nasty shoulder injury in the heavy league defeat to Dublin and is in a race against time to be fit for their championship opener against Galway on May 18.

::)

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/rossies-boss-ryan-sets-his-focus-on-galway-1354841.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/rossies-boss-ryan-sets-his-focus-on-galway-1354841.html)

Have you no life? seriously?

Quote from: cornafean on April 22, 2008, 04:27:55 PM
Fair dues to the Irish Independent. After vehemently campaigning for the GPA Grants/Expenses Scheme for several months, it hasn't taken them too long to recognise the new reality of GAA pay-for-play - at least judging by their article today about the new Roscommon manager

QuoteHis initial task is to complete his backroom team. Donal Casserly is already in place while his other selector will be confirmed later today. The likelihood is that Derek Thompson will team up with Ryan again after the pair worked together on the U-21 panel this year.

Ryan also faces early injury problems with his playing staff -- particularly ace marksman and freetaker Ger Heneghan.

The Castlerea clubman picked up a nasty shoulder injury in the heavy league defeat to Dublin and is in a race against time to be fit for their championship opener against Galway on May 18.

::)

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/rossies-boss-ryan-sets-his-focus-on-galway-1354841.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/rossies-boss-ryan-sets-his-focus-on-galway-1354841.html)

Do you think that reference to playing staff was deliberate ??

Now that Maughtan is gone we have loads of spare money. ;)

Quote from: Rossfan on April 23, 2008, 08:19:26 PM
Now that Maughtan is gone we have loads of spare money. ;)

Sure all he got was a pittance for diesel ! And a load of bad manners !  :D

Quote from: orangeman on April 23, 2008, 03:33:33 PM
Do you think that reference to playing staff was deliberate ??

Hardly, unless Donnachadh O'Boyle is a nom-de-plume for the over-exposed Martin "sign up for grants - or else!" Breheny.

Still, you know what they say about certain things being "stranger than fiction"

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/government-cutbacks-may-spell-end-to-grants-for-gaa-players-1430558.html

QuoteBy Martin Breheny


Thursday July 10 2008

THE €3.5m grants scheme for GAA players could be under threat as Government cutbacks threaten a whole range of programmes in various sectors.

The Government gave a commitment to the GAA and the GPA early this year to pay the grants for this season, but whether they identify them as an area where savings can be made in 2009 and beyond remains to be seen.

The Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism declined to comment on the situation yesterday. But, with all Ministers under instruction to curb spending, the grant scheme - which was finally put together earlier this year after lengthy negotiations - could well come under severe pressure.

Under the scheme, more than 1,900 inter-county players will receive grants ranging from €1,400 to €2,500 per head, depending on how long a team survives in the championship.

The scheme is operated through the Irish Sports Council and is linked to various expenses incurred by the players in their pursuit of excellence.

The €3.5m commitment was given for 2008 but the agreement also noted that "the amount required for the scheme in subsequent years shall be determined by the Minister".

Doubt

That leaves it up to new Sports Minister Martin Cullen to decide if he will continue to provide funding from 2009 on. Clearly, there must be a serious doubt, especially as it is an area his department could identify as an easy target.

The GAA have stressed all along that, in the event of the Government withdrawing the funding, they would not finance it from their own resources. That could bring them into conflict with the GPA, who made the grants a key policy issue for the past few years and who would be dismayed if it were to be withdrawn after one year.

Meanwhile, tributes were paid by both the GAA and GPA to former Sports Minister Seamus Brennan, who died yesterday. He was centrally involved in the introduction of the grants scheme.

GAA president Nickey Brennan said that during his namesake's "all too brief tenure as Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, he was always courteous, understanding and helpful".

A GPA statement also acknowledged his role in the grants initiative, noting that he was centrally involved in bringing the deal into being.

Ironically, that deal could now be under threat even before the payments are made for the first year.

Complete non-story based on nothing other than Breheny's imaginings. Can he come up with nothing better than this to prevent the sports editor kicking his chair from under him? And right in  the middle of the championship season.

For what it's worth, he could be right, it's something we've said all along would happen if/when things got tight.


However,

a) There's no quote from anybody that even hints that this is the case. It's all just a non-story of Breheny's opinion. I could write one saying FAI may have fiunding for Lansdowne Road withdrawn, using the same premise, and it would be equally unsound.

b) The GPA have promised not to chase the GAA in the event that the Gov withdraw the funding, so that's a red herring. Surely. Isn't it? That's what we were told...

A non story.

In other news.... next year's all ireland final may be under threat due to government cutbacks. it is not clear if garda policing of major sporting events will be included in the anticipated 2009 purse string tightening but if it is then the all ireland final will be only one of several major events scrapped for H & S reasons.

Paper doesn't refuse ink does it. A sad excuse for journalism.

Quote from: magpie seanie on July 10, 2008, 10:54:30 AM
A sad excuse for journalism.

The article, or Breheny in general?

I was referring to the article. In general I wouldn't read Breheny a lot so you can take from that what you wish...

In fairness to Breheny (whose opinions on this topic I have found bizarre to date), this same scenario was mentioned by someone else on radio (Newstalk Off the Ball possibly) last night.

and?

i SEE Martin Cullen has dismissed this as a steaming pile of horse sh1te. Breheny is an embarrassment to his profession.

Quote from: LaurelEye on July 10, 2008, 02:38:21 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on July 10, 2008, 10:54:30 AM
A sad excuse for journalism.

The article, or Breheny in general?

Both it would seem.
Two Provincial Finals next Sunday, the last rounds of the CR and NR Cups,Minor and Junior Championship games also on at the weekend and this is all he can write about. >:(
Generally the GAA coverage in the Sir Brit Indo is appalling. - even on Mondays -crap little cliched reports on games - then nonsense for the rest of the week.
I'm still waiting for Breheny to come up with one he runs most years about the drop in the number of goals in the Football Championship.

Anyone know when these are due? Some Dublin students are strapped for cash at the minute and cant afford to go to coppers!

Quote from: TBT on July 10, 2008, 08:15:32 PM
i SEE Martin Cullen has dismissed this as a steaming pile of horse sh1te. Breheny is an embarrassment to his profession.

So we should believe Cullen the pile of shite . ?
Problem solved for GAA .

We were assured at the time that the GPA wouldn't go looking to the GAA to keep the wages coming so we've nothing to worry about.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 19, 2008, 10:01:32 PM
We were assured at the time that the GPA wouldn't go looking to the GAA to keep the wages coming so we've nothing to worry about.

To be fair, Dessie more or less came out and said they wouldn't be asking the GAA to pick up the bill to Cahill in the interview. He also reckoned that if the funding to the ISC is cut by 8% they'd be happy to take the 8% hit if everyone else did

I listened to this on the radio last night, and credit where it's due, Dessie Farrell said that the GPA would not be looking to the GAA to pick up this bill.

Whether that constitutes a promise to refrain from looking for the GAA to pick up a seperate bill, i.e. Same horse, different colour, remains to be seen, but he gave the impression that they wouldn't. He also ruled out a strike.

Quote from: TBT on July 10, 2008, 08:15:32 PM
i SEE Martin Cullen has dismissed this as a steaming pile of horse sh1te. Breheny is an embarrassment to his profession.

Sceptical and all as I am of Breheny's stance on the grants issue, his story of last July has now been vindicated by Cullen's uturn yesterday.

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 20, 2008, 09:53:32 AM
I listened to this on the radio last night, and credit where it's due, Dessie Farrell said that the GPA would not be looking to the GAA to pick up this bill.

Whether that constitutes a promise to refrain from looking for the GAA to pick up a seperate bill, i.e. Same horse, different colour, remains to be seen, but he gave the impression that they wouldn't. He also ruled out a strike.

Is this the same Dessie who said a few weeks ago that the Cork hurlers were "not contractually obliged" to honour the "no more strikes" condition imposed as part of Kieran Mulvey's mediation on the Teddy Holland controversy, on the basis that they are "amateur players"?  ::)

Quote from: cornafean on November 20, 2008, 09:58:22 AM

Quote from: TBT on July 10, 2008, 08:15:32 PM
i SEE Martin Cullen has dismissed this as a steaming pile of horse sh1te. Breheny is an embarrassment to his profession.

Sceptical and all as I am of Breheny's stance on the grants issue, his story of last July has now been vindicated by Cullen's uturn yesterday.

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 20, 2008, 09:53:32 AM
I listened to this on the radio last night, and credit where it's due, Dessie Farrell said that the GPA would not be looking to the GAA to pick up this bill.

Whether that constitutes a promise to refrain from looking for the GAA to pick up a seperate bill, i.e. Same horse, different colour, remains to be seen, but he gave the impression that they wouldn't. He also ruled out a strike.

Is this the same Dessie who said a few weeks ago that the Cork hurlers were "not contractually obliged" to honour the "no more strikes" condition imposed as part of Kieran Mulvey's mediation on the Teddy Holland controversy, on the basis that they are "amateur players"?  ::)

[/b]

I think it's him alright - don't tell him you're sceptical ?

I think Dessie struggles to assert himself, ie to tell people what he really wants.  Its common amongst the unimportant.

I don't think this vindicates Breheny's story last July at all. I'm sure that was just a straw in the breeze. If you keep talking you're bound to say something right. A stopped clock and all that.

Did I hear correctly that Cullen said that the GAA should pick up to tab on the grants. Though he faces stiff competition he is without doubt in my opinion the most inept Minister to ever serve in the Dáil.

Didn't see that bit from cullen seany, though as you intimate he could come out with anything.

for what its worth, i can't see the GPA looking for the money from headquarters. too many of their members would be breaking publicly made assurances and it would be very wrong irrespective.

as an aside lads, the inability of posters here to rationally debate any issues surrounding the GPA or intercounty player welfare issues is one of the reasons i'm starting to lose touch with this site. the kneejerk personal attacks whenever names like farrell or cusack come up in any guise reflects very badly on the forum as a whole. those fellas and the lads who are gpa members have given every bit as much to the GAA as the average poster on this board i'd venture.

Quote from: Uladh on November 20, 2008, 11:07:04 AM
as an aside lads, the inability of posters here to rationally debate any issues surrounding the GPA or intercounty player welfare issues is one of the reasons i'm starting to lose touch with this site. the kneejerk personal attacks whenever names like farrell or cusack come up in any guise reflects very badly on the forum as a whole. those fellas and the lads who are gpa members have given every bit as much to the GAA as the average poster on this board i'd venture.

I think this criticism is unfair. The biggest "intercounty player welfare" story this week is the Aidan O'Mahony asthma/drug-test story and I think it has been debated very fairly and rationally on this board.

I didn't contribute to the debate myself but some of those who did so,  in Aidan's favour btw, have been amongst the strongest critics of Farrell ,Cusack et al on this board.

So the assertions that (i'm paraphrasing out of laziness) "they took the money so they can take the punishment", etc were justified?

Quote from: Uladh on November 20, 2008, 11:42:33 AM

So the assertions that (i'm paraphrasing out of laziness) "they took the money so they can take the punishment", etc were justified?

If you are looking for a discussion forum where every single opinion expressed is logical, temperate, fair and correct, you will be a long time looking  ;)

Just because an odd opinion is illogical, intemperate, unfair or incorrect does not in itself invalidate the entire discussion. You don't throw your TV out the window just because you don't like a particular programme.

The particular contributers who spam these threads with multiple posts do not (want to) understand the subject matter, nor do they wish to debate the merits of anyone else's opinion. put simply, 2 or 3 morons ignore established facts, disproved theories and previously addressed points to consistently (and frequently) rehash their mantra (4 legs good, 2 legs bad) irrespective. the habit of snapping on the leash and drooling through their muzzle at the very mention of the three G P A letters clouds any possibility of any decent contribution.

Uladh - I don't know if you're including me amongst those that are turning you away from the board but I'd just ask you these questions. Can you understand why the GPA elicits such a negative response from people? Can you understand why people are suspicious of them and their methods?

I was one person who linked the receiving of the grants with the drug testing. Its quite clear there would be no grants without the drug testing. I wouldn't subscribe to "they took the money so they can take the punishment" at all. I merely brought the point up to highlight that Peter Canavan's article was double speak. I was and am against the grants. I'm also unhappy with amateur players being drug tested in the same manner as professionals. I'm hugely sympathetic with Aidan O'Mahony and hope he gets no suspension. Nothing will stop the abuse and mud that will stick though.

certainly not seanie - and its not just the players issues that bugs me but thats another story.

absolutely i understand the suspicion towards the gpa and particularly their officers. they are breaking new ground and that is always difficult on all sides. however, i cringe at the automatic villification of members of the gpa. i have good friends who are members and i can say without hesitation they are the best gaels i know.

there would be no grants without drug testing but that includes all grants. sports council / government grants for facilities etc would not have come without the gaa signing their county players up for drug testing ten odd years ago. you could argue that the gaa elevated their intercounty players to special status with the lifestyle constraints that this requires them to adhere to, and that this was done so that the gaa could access the treasure chest of government money they've recieved over 10 years.

Quote from: Uladh on November 20, 2008, 12:50:59 PM

certainly not seanie - and its not just the players issues that bugs me but thats another story.

absolutely i understand the suspicion towards the gpa and particularly their officers. they are breaking new ground and that is always difficult on all sides. however, i cringe at the automatic villification of members of the gpa. i have good friends who are members and i can say without hesitation they are the best gaels i know.

there would be no grants without drug testing but that includes all grants. sports council / government grants for facilities etc would not have come without the gaa signing their county players up for drug testing ten odd years ago. you could argue that the gaa elevated their intercounty players to special status with the lifestyle constraints that this requires them to adhere to, and that this was done so that the gaa could access the treasure chest of government money they've recieved over 10 years.

If that is the case then its a disgrace. The GAA should never have agreed to this and I don't see why they should have.

Uladh - there is a huge and growing collection of idiots on this board so do us a favour and don't bail out as it would be one less good poster. I know it can be hard though.

Whilst the grants uturn is regrettable for the players probably,  it must be said for anyone harboring notions of semi professionalism in the GAA in the future.  If the country cant afford to pay players how ever could the GAA.

Is there anyone on this bord who harbours notions of a semi professional game?

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 20, 2008, 12:59:53 PM

Uladh - there is a huge and growing collection of idiots on this board so do us a favour and don't bail out as it would be one less good poster.

I agree fully, fwiw.

Quote from: Uladh on November 20, 2008, 01:32:07 PM

Is there anyone on this bord who harbours notions of a semi professional game?

What bugs me is the people who think the GPA will make the GAA professional or semi-professional. Its just beyond all logic to think they can achieve it without the GAA giving the go ahead. But there is just no reasoning with them, and I firmly believe there is a huge chip on the shoulder from posters on this site who are perhaps club players/members/officials, who are just pure green with envy that intercounty players get certain benefits and they get nothing.

Anyway, back on point, Dessie has clearly clarified once again, that in the event of a shortfall from government regarding the grant they will NOT ask the GAA to stump it up.

It is likely the Irish Sports Council's funding will be reduced by 8%. Therefore a reduction in the grants of 8% would be fair and reasonable. Anything in excess of 8% would be unfair.

that in the event of a shortfall from government regarding the grant they will NOT ask the GAA to stump it up.
I dont think that was ever an option so hes wasting his own breath.

Quote from: rrhf on November 20, 2008, 02:10:10 PM
that in the event of a shortfall from government regarding the grant they will NOT ask the GAA to stump it up.
I dont think that was ever an option so hes wasting his own breath.

Indeed (although he was just responding to a direct question asked on RTE radio). If the money is coming from the Irish Sports Council, and not coming from the GAA, how can any GAA person be against grants to intercounty players?

One of the primary arguments of those against the grants was that if and when the govt stopped the grants, then the GAA would somehow be forced to stump up. Its clear thats totally out of the question. Though I expect those against the grants may try and invent new reasons to oppose the grants.

I cautiously welcome Farrell's comments in relation to this. At least he has more cop on than our genius Minister:

GAA disappointed with Cullen comments
Thursday, 20 November 2008 14:41
The GAA has expressed its disappointment at comments made in the Dáil yesterday by the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism, Martin Cullen TD.

The Minister cast doubt on future funding for the Government's Annual Team Performance and Support Schemes for the Development of Excellence in hurling and Gaelic football.

GAA President, Nickey Brennan said it was his hope that the Government would continue to honour the terms of the agreement reached in November last year and that the schemes as rolled out in 2008 had been an appropriate recognition of the contribution of senior intercounty players to the social, economic and cultural life of the nation.

He said the GAA would be talking to the GPA in the coming days in relation to the matter.

QuoteOne of the primary arguments of those against the grants was that if and when the govt stopped the grants, then the GAA would somehow be forced to stump up. Its clear thats totally out of the question. Though I expect those against the grants may try and invent new reasons to oppose the grants.

Hound - I think that's very unfair, especially in the light on Minister Cullen's comments. Or maybe I'm just a jealous b**tard who hates players?

Edit - Sorry, I thought that piece mentioned where Cullen said the GAA should fund the grants or make up the shortfall as was reported on the Radio this morning.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 20, 2008, 12:59:53 PMUladh - there is a huge and growing collection of idiots on this board so do us a favour and don't bail out as it would be one less good poster. I know it can be hard though.

I agree, and that's as one who is vehemently oposed to the GPA's agenda and makes no apology aboout campaigning against it here as strongly and as consistently as I can.

Hound, I resent your suggestion that people who oppose the GPA's agenda do it out of envy. It's a cheap argument and represents no truth other than your own prejudice and presumption that people who disagree with you are wrong by definition. I can assure you that my oposition to them is based on my belief that they are fundamentally inimical to the ethos of the GAA.

However, I do believe that we have won the major battle and the GPA itself no longer believes it can achieve pay for play, beyuond the level available (or not! from government grants. I still very strongly resent their elitism and promotion of themselves as a special group worthy of special privileges (the only one in the GAA).

Quote from: Hardy on November 20, 2008, 05:27:10 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 20, 2008, 12:59:53 PMUladh - there is a huge and growing collection of idiots on this board so do us a favour and don't bail out as it would be one less good poster. I know it can be hard though.

I agree, and that's as one who is vehemently oposed to the GPA's agenda and makes no apology aboout campaigning against it here as strongly and as consistently as I can.

Hound, I resent your suggestion that people who oppose the GPA's agenda do it out of envy. It's a cheap argument and represents no truth other than your own prejudice and presumption that people who disagree with you are wrong by definition. I can assure you that my oposition to them is based on my belief that they are fundamentally inimical to the ethos of the GAA.

However, I do believe that we have won the major battle and the GPA itself no longer believes it can achieve pay for play, beyuond the level available (or not! from government grants. I still very strongly resent their elitism and promotion of themselves as a special group worthy of special privileges (the only one in the GAA).

i'm not sure there were ever many (if any) within the thousands who have been gpa members who intended to achieve pay for play status.

I believe that the gaa elevated intercounty players to "special" status. by the GAA i mean the association in its many guises.

administration did it years ago by subjecting them to international olympic standard drug testing and the lifestyle curtailments that go with it. only this small band of the hundreds of thousands of GAA members are pushed forward for this.

county boards and managers have contributed by shelling out ever increasing thousands to employ professional people from every corner of professional sport to demand more and more from them. strength and conditioning coaches, dieticians, fitness coaches, speed coaches, lifestyle coaches, psychologists, etc. each pushing the boundaries and the requirments from players, because that is what they are paid to do.

all this before being required to play football!

but much more than that, we the fan demand more and more from them. the bachelor boys training at 6 in the morning won the all ireland- everyone had to do it or they were not up to it. 4, 5, 6 nights a week, la manga, whatever new urban myth promises success it has to be done.

how often does the ordinary fan complain about their county men that they're not good enough, not committed enough, not fit enough, too heavy, too slow, etc. to play for X. "i saw x in the local last week and it less than a month til the championship!".

if we're honest we demand the very highest standards from intercounty players - standards that many professional sportsmen fail to meet. one of the biggest reasons for my pride in the GAA is how we can produce so many athletes and games of the highest quality, that would be the envy of many a professional sport, in a unique and amateur environment. with all that goes into this i for one don't begrudge the government recognising county players for their commitment to excellence and their contribution to gaelic games - the centre piece of many peoples lives in this country and joyous sports to be part of.

If you believe that the E1400 expenses grant or whatever they get is putting them on a professional footing when they are actually doing all of the above while working full time and meeting life commitments, then fair enough. i can't agree.

Quote from: Uladh on November 20, 2008, 09:59:52 PM

Quote from: Hardy on November 20, 2008, 05:27:10 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 20, 2008, 12:59:53 PMUladh - there is a huge and growing collection of idiots on this board so do us a favour and don't bail out as it would be one less good poster. I know it can be hard though.

I agree, and that's as one who is vehemently oposed to the GPA's agenda and makes no apology aboout campaigning against it here as strongly and as consistently as I can.

Hound, I resent your suggestion that people who oppose the GPA's agenda do it out of envy. It's a cheap argument and represents no truth other than your own prejudice and presumption that people who disagree with you are wrong by definition. I can assure you that my oposition to them is based on my belief that they are fundamentally inimical to the ethos of the GAA.

However, I do believe that we have won the major battle and the GPA itself no longer believes it can achieve pay for play, beyuond the level available (or not! from government grants. I still very strongly resent their elitism and promotion of themselves as a special group worthy of special privileges (the only one in the GAA).

i'm not sure there were ever many (if any) within the thousands who have been gpa members who intended to achieve pay for play status.

I believe that the gaa elevated intercounty players to "special" status. by the GAA i mean the association in its many guises.

administration did it years ago by subjecting them to international olympic standard drug testing and the lifestyle curtailments that go with it. only this small band of the hundreds of thousands of GAA members are pushed forward for this.

county boards and managers have contributed by shelling out ever increasing thousands to employ professional people from every corner of professional sport to demand more and more from them. strength and conditioning coaches, dieticians, fitness coaches, speed coaches, lifestyle coaches, psychologists, etc. each pushing the boundaries and the requirments from players, because that is what they are paid to do.

all this before being required to play football!

but much more than that, we the fan demand more and more from them. the bachelor boys training at 6 in the morning won the all ireland- everyone had to do it or they were not up to it. 4, 5, 6 nights a week, la manga, whatever new urban myth promises success it has to be done.

how often does the ordinary fan complain about their county men that they're not good enough, not committed enough, not fit enough, too heavy, too slow, etc. to play for X. "i saw x in the local last week and it less than a month til the championship!".

if we're honest we demand the very highest standards from intercounty players - standards that many professional sportsmen fail to meet. one of the biggest reasons for my pride in the GAA is how we can produce so many athletes and games of the highest quality, that would be the envy of many a professional sport, in a unique and amateur environment. with all that goes into this i for one don't begrudge the government recognising county players for their commitment to excellence and their contribution to gaelic games - the centre piece of many peoples lives in this country and joyous sports to be part of.

If you believe that the E1400 expenses grant or whatever they get is putting them on a professional footing when they are actually doing all of the above while working full time and meeting life commitments, then fair enough. i can't agree.

Great post good to see a bit of balance in the debate

QuoteI have often heard that the Kerry players of the 1970/80s are all destroyed with injuries from their playing days.

Its injuries from their training days that has them knackered, the playing days were a doddle.

Quote from: Uladh on November 20, 2008, 09:59:52 PM

Quote from: Hardy on November 20, 2008, 05:27:10 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 20, 2008, 12:59:53 PMUladh - there is a huge and growing collection of idiots on this board so do us a favour and don't bail out as it would be one less good poster. I know it can be hard though.

I agree, and that's as one who is vehemently opposed to the GPA's agenda and makes no apology about campaigning against it here as strongly and as consistently as I can.

Hound, I resent your suggestion that people who oppose the GPA's agenda do it out of envy. It's a cheap argument and represents no truth other than your own prejudice and presumption that people who disagree with you are wrong by definition. I can assure you that my opposition to them is based on my belief that they are fundamentally inimical to the ethos of the GAA.

However, I do believe that we have won the major battle and the GPA itself no longer believes it can achieve pay for play, beyond the level available (or not! from government grants. I still very strongly resent their elitism and promotion of themselves as a special group worthy of special privileges (the only one in the GAA).

I'm not sure there were ever many (if any) within the thousands who have been GPA members who intended to achieve pay for play status.

I believe that the gaa elevated intercounty players to "special" status. by the GAA i mean the association in its many guises.

administration did it years ago by subjecting them to international olympic standard drug testing and the lifestyle curtailments that go with it. only this small band of the hundreds of thousands of GAA members are pushed forward for this.

county boards and managers have contributed by shelling out ever increasing thousands to employ professional people from every corner of professional sport to demand more and more from them. strength and conditioning coaches, dieticians, fitness coaches, speed coaches, lifestyle coaches, psychologists, etc. each pushing the boundaries and the requirments from players, because that is what they are paid to do.

all this before being required to play football!

but much more than that, we the fan demand more and more from them. the bachelor boys training at 6 in the morning won the all ireland- everyone had to do it or they were not up to it. 4, 5, 6 nights a week, la manga, whatever new urban myth promises success it has to be done.

how often does the ordinary fan complain about their county men that they're not good enough, not committed enough, not fit enough, too heavy, too slow, etc. to play for X. "i saw x in the local last week and it less than a month til the championship!".

if we're honest we demand the very highest standards from intercounty players - standards that many professional sportsmen fail to meet. one of the biggest reasons for my pride in the GAA is how we can produce so many athletes and games of the highest quality, that would be the envy of many a professional sport, in a unique and amateur environment. with all that goes into this i for one don't begrudge the government recognising county players for their commitment to excellence and their contribution to gaelic games - the centre piece of many peoples lives in this country and joyous sports to be part of.

If you believe that the E1400 expenses grant or whatever they get is putting them on a professional footing when they are actually doing all of the above while working full time and meeting life commitments, then fair enough. i can't agree.

I see your point and are with lots of what you say but I don't necessarily agree with the thrust of it all. Firstly I would agree with your assertion about ordinary GPA members but would suspect this is not true of the leadership.

Throughout the rest of it I find it hard agree with your apportionment of the blame for this elevation to "special" status of county players as you put it. At best its a chicken and egg thing over the drug testing thing but you blame "administration". You blame county boards for spending money on employing the best methods to prepare teams. I find that very strange. The county board hardly all sat round the table and said - you know what, we'll send the lads to La Manga this spring and they'll do the divil and all. "Good" county boards are the ones that can provide what the players and management want/need in pursuit of success yet you blame them for spending the money.

You make a point about "fans" demanding things from county players and you have a point there to a degree. But the people that put the biggest demands on the players are undoubtedly themselves, their team mates and team management. You didn't mention that anywhere.  The players are not slaves. They do it because they enjoy it and the prospect of success makes their sacrifices worthwhile. Any argument that doesn't take cognisance of this is flawed.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 20, 2008, 10:39:30 PM

Quote from: Uladh on November 20, 2008, 09:59:52 PM

Quote from: Hardy on November 20, 2008, 05:27:10 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 20, 2008, 12:59:53 PMUladh - there is a huge and growing collection of idiots on this board so do us a favour and don't bail out as it would be one less good poster. I know it can be hard though.

I agree, and that's as one who is vehemently opposed to the GPA's agenda and makes no apology about campaigning against it here as strongly and as consistently as I can.

Hound, I resent your suggestion that people who oppose the GPA's agenda do it out of envy. It's a cheap argument and represents no truth other than your own prejudice and presumption that people who disagree with you are wrong by definition. I can assure you that my opposition to them is based on my belief that they are fundamentally inimical to the ethos of the GAA.

However, I do believe that we have won the major battle and the GPA itself no longer believes it can achieve pay for play, beyond the level available (or not! from government grants. I still very strongly resent their elitism and promotion of themselves as a special group worthy of special privileges (the only one in the GAA).

I'm not sure there were ever many (if any) within the thousands who have been GPA members who intended to achieve pay for play status.

I believe that the gaa elevated intercounty players to "special" status. by the GAA i mean the association in its many guises.

administration did it years ago by subjecting them to international olympic standard drug testing and the lifestyle curtailments that go with it. only this small band of the hundreds of thousands of GAA members are pushed forward for this.

county boards and managers have contributed by shelling out ever increasing thousands to employ professional people from every corner of professional sport to demand more and more from them. strength and conditioning coaches, dieticians, fitness coaches, speed coaches, lifestyle coaches, psychologists, etc. each pushing the boundaries and the requirments from players, because that is what they are paid to do.

all this before being required to play football!

but much more than that, we the fan demand more and more from them. the bachelor boys training at 6 in the morning won the all ireland- everyone had to do it or they were not up to it. 4, 5, 6 nights a week, la manga, whatever new urban myth promises success it has to be done.

how often does the ordinary fan complain about their county men that they're not good enough, not committed enough, not fit enough, too heavy, too slow, etc. to play for X. "i saw x in the local last week and it less than a month til the championship!".

if we're honest we demand the very highest standards from intercounty players - standards that many professional sportsmen fail to meet. one of the biggest reasons for my pride in the GAA is how we can produce so many athletes and games of the highest quality, that would be the envy of many a professional sport, in a unique and amateur environment. with all that goes into this i for one don't begrudge the government recognising county players for their commitment to excellence and their contribution to gaelic games - the centre piece of many peoples lives in this country and joyous sports to be part of.

If you believe that the E1400 expenses grant or whatever they get is putting them on a professional footing when they are actually doing all of the above while working full time and meeting life commitments, then fair enough. i can't agree.

I see your point and are with lots of what you say but I don't necessarily agree with the thrust of it all. Firstly I would agree with your assertion about ordinary GPA members but would suspect this is not true of the leadership.

Throughout the rest of it I find it hard agree with your apportionment of the blame for this elevation to "special" status of county players as you put it. At best its a chicken and egg thing over the drug testing thing but you blame "administration". You blame county boards for spending money on employing the best methods to prepare teams. I find that very strange. The county board hardly all sat round the table and said - you know what, we'll send the lads to La Mange this spring and they'll do the divil and all. "Good" county boards are the ones that can provide what the players and management want/need in pursuit of success yet you blame them for spending the money.

You make a point about "fans" demanding things from county players and you have a point there to a degree. But the people that put the biggest demands on the players are undoubtedly themselves, their team mates and team management. You didn't mention that anywhere.  The players are not slaves. They do it because they enjoy it and the prospect of success makes their sacrifices worthwhile. Any argument that doesn't take cognisance of this is flawed.

With regards fans I think you have to split them into thoes who just demand success and top class performance from their "County Team" at the few games they attend each year and the fans who attend all games both club and underage .

With regards management if you take for example Kevin Walsh who has taken over Sligo will he not be demanding 110 % committment from his players ?

I think that grants maybe the thin end of the wedge but Ireland has changed .The GAA maybe 100+ years old but times changed . For me the grants are not a big issue the real issue is the lack of particpation in major urban areas .the competion from other sports ,the win at all costs demands for the sunshine supporters

Good piece by Sean Moran on the GAA and how it's had to adapt to modern times

ON GAELIC GAMES: The O'Mahony case may be an innocent misadventure, but for the first time Croke Park has to crank up its various procedures and mechanisms, writes Sean Moran

I REMEMBER one day at school, after an elderly, despairing (in the secular sense) priest had walked out on our class after we had got a bit lively, the headmaster arrived to give us a low-key talking-to on the basis that it wasn't easy growing old and seeing the world change and that we should bear that in mind when conducting ourselves.

It would be an exaggeration to suggest that we were stricken with remorse, but then again the incident lives on, 33 years later.

At present for many members the modern GAA has become that classroom: inexplicably insolent, irritating and mildly threatening. For those of that view the clamour of the past few days must have been unnerving.

The stand-off in Cork becomes increasingly intractable and the verbal conflict ever more personal. Croke Park becomes a talking point in the rugby world for the week before Ireland's international with New Zealand.

But more discomforting than the bitter in-fighting between players and their county board, or the occasional sight of the GAA's stadium packed in anticipation of another sport, has to be the news - inevitable as it was - that a player had failed or tested adversely in doping control.

It doesn't matter that Aidan O'Mahony's long history of asthma and compliance with the notification procedures make suspension an unlikely outcome when he sits before the GAA's Anti-Doping Hearing's Committee; in fact, the player's blamelessness only increases the unease.

The association and its players have gone down the road of modernity and there's not going to be any reversion to simpler times, nor can there be. As a vehicle for sporting involvement the GAA has immense social value even aside from the cultural aspect of the indigenous games. This activity is rightly supported by public funds.

Maybe there was merit in the flinty self-reliance of the past when community effort and local support acquired and developed facilities. One of the things Liam Mulvihill remarked on as having most changed during his 29 years as director general was the growing dependence of county boards on grants from Croke Park and, by extension, the public purse.

Then again, look at the infrastructure that the GAA has built with that assistance and the great use to which it is put. Remaining in splendid isolation was never a desirable course for the association to follow, depriving it of financial assistance and the interaction of those who might not have come into contact with the organisation.

The connection between that issue of public funding and what happened to Aidan O'Mahony is simply that such grants and subventions are linked to the GAA's co-operation in the matter of anti-doping measures. Before the uneasy agreement between the association and the Irish Sports Council in the summer of 2001, pressure had been exerted.

On the eve of congress in April 2001, just as the question of opening Croke Park to other sports was about to be discussed, a wad of €75 million landed on the top table just in time to cut the ground from under the economic argument for repealing the old Rule 42. As the move failed to carry by just one vote, the largesse may well have had a material influence on a decision that was seen as good news for then-taoiseach Bertie Ahern's plan to build Stadium Ireland out in Abbotstown.

A communication between Ahern and then-GAA president SeáMcCague on April 6th, 2001 (curiously only made available to this newspaper under the Freedom of Information Act after appeal to the Information Commissioner) concerning the deal - how the €75 million would be paid and what use the GAA would make of Stadium Ireland - specified at point 13: ". . . The commitments in this letter are conditional on the GAA complying with the Government's anti-doping in sport programme."

There were other pressures. Just as no sport can tolerate the corruption and cheating at the heart of doping, neither is any sport immune from the dangers of the practice, which poses significant health risks to any player so tempted.

In team games the influence that drugs can have is not as obvious as in individual contests of strength and speed. But even team sports are composed of individual contests. Aspects of games like rugby and football place a premium on strength. Then there is the widespread function of steroids to enable the body to train harder for longer. There's no drug that will make you hurl like Henry Shefflin or kick a ball like Colm Cooper, but there are drugs that will help you run after either of them all day - and that has its uses.

Dope testing is an unwelcome intrusion into the GAA's world, as has been seen over the past couple of days. The O'Mahony case may be an innocent misadventure, but for the first time Croke Park has to crank up its various procedures and mechanisms.

It is also acknowledged that the Sports Council - and maybe even Wada, the world doping authority, which is very concerned by the growing potential abuse of asthma medication - will be keeping a close eye on proceedings.

Then there is the difficulty for the player himself as the matter is processed. O'Mahony has never been the most public of players and the whole focus can only have been upsetting for him.

So nobody doubts the intrusiveness, but this is no different to what virtually all other elite athletes have to tolerate in the course of their disciplines. Furthermore, Gaelic players often forget that elite athletes are frequently more "amateur" than top hurlers and footballers because they have to fend for themselves and prepare without a fraction of the infrastructural back-up available to the country's largest sports organisation and the players' body, the GPA.

In any event, it would be unthinkable for the GAA to try to stand aside from the struggle against drugs in sport. But for everyone involved, players, administrators and members, it's an anxious departure from simpler, more certain times.

smoran@irish-times.ie

© 2008 The Irish Times

Quote from: Hardy on November 20, 2008, 05:27:10 PM

Hound, I resent your suggestion that people who oppose the GPA's agenda do it out of envy. It's a cheap argument and represents no truth other than your own prejudice and presumption that people who disagree with you are wrong by definition. I can assure you that my oposition to them is based on my belief that they are fundamentally inimical to the ethos of the GAA.

However, I do believe that we have won the major battle and the GPA itself no longer believes it can achieve pay for play, beyuond the level available (or not! from government grants. I still very strongly resent their elitism and promotion of themselves as a special group worthy of special privileges (the only one in the GAA).

As I said, the usual mantra - why do they get something while we get nothing.
The opposition to grants paid by the government to intercounty players sums it all up. The reason the naysayers said they were against it is because it would "inevitably lead to forcing the GAA into professionalism". Which of course is utter bull. 

And congratulations on the victory of that major battle on pay for play! Great stuff. I really thought the GPA were going to somehow magically force it through without the consent of the GAA  ::)

Hound, I'm finished discussing this with you since you deliberately lie in bold type by distorting what I say into the meaning you would like it to have. Fine - if it makes you happy, you and the GPA are the only open-minded generous spirited people in the GAA. Feel better now?

Good post Uladh. Just one thing - I don't demand anything from inter-county players,. Neither does anyone else. We have no right to. They are voluntary participants.

QuoteJust one thing - I don't demand anything from inter-county players,. Neither does anyone else. We have no right to. They are voluntary participants.

That's why I said that Uladh had a point there "to a degree". There are idiots out there who demand things from county players. They are the barstool generals who go to 2 or 3 games a year and think they know it all because of this. I don't think anyone should listen to them but there are a lot of them and empty vessels make most sound.

I would have expectations as to how my county team would perform and apply themselves but I wouldn't demand anything from a player. We are all volunteers at the end of the day.

Hound - like Hardy I resent your attempts to paint our opposition to the grants as jealousy. Lets just assume you are right and I'm jealous of county players. I suppose I should be against them getting gear, mileage, holidays, melas etc as well if I'm so jealous but of course I'm not against that (in fact I'd be pretty annoyed if players didn't get proper treatment).

I'm against people getting paid money to play gaelic games - its really that simple.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 20, 2008, 10:39:30 PM
Throughout the rest of it I find it hard agree with your apportionment of the blame for this elevation to "special" status of county players as you put it. At best its a chicken and egg thing over the drug testing thing but you blame "administration". You blame county boards for spending money on employing the best methods to prepare teams. I find that very strange. The county board hardly all sat round the table and said - you know what, we'll send the lads to La Manga this spring and they'll do the divil and all. "Good" county boards are the ones that can provide what the players and management want/need in pursuit of success yet you blame them for spending the money.

You make a point about "fans" demanding things from county players and you have a point there to a degree. But the people that put the biggest demands on the players are undoubtedly themselves, their team mates and team management. You didn't mention that anywhere.  The players are not slaves. They do it because they enjoy it and the prospect of success makes their sacrifices worthwhile. Any argument that doesn't take cognisance of this is flawed.

certainly it's hard to say that the GAA administrators, by forwarding only county players for International drug testing, haven't required them to hold higher standards than the rest of the membership. by my reckoning that's affording county players "special" (hardy's term) status.

i'm not blaming the county board or anyone in particular for where we're at. rather, i was trying to highlight some of the constituent factors that have all added up to increased expectations. also, individual wishes or demands that you or i might have are lost in the ocean of general expected standards.

absolutely players place the biggest demands on themselves. however, a player expects anD hopes for what he sees the top guys achieve. What that is is determined by accepted best practice and reported minimum targets. The accepted best pracrice is increasing monthly and with it the energies needed to compete. My point is that the GAA as a community definitely expect the best from players and the best is disappearing over the horizon at this stage.

Again, of course i agree that noone forces players to play but to me that is a weak point. most lads who are first of all talented enough and then lucky enough to be picked to play for their county will give it everything. they will push the boat out and follow every program and direction they're given to have the chance to play football against the best in the country some day. i certainly wouldn't expect many fellas to walk away for the want of effort or the will to have a lash at meeting the standards which are recognised as the benchmark

Cavanagh fears AFL exodus over grants

Tyrone's Sean Cavanagh surges past a helpless Adrian Morrissey of Wexford in the All-Ireland SFC semi-final
21 November 2008


Footballer of the Year and GPA secretary Sean Cavanagh has warned that the GAA's best young players will turn their backs on the sport if the player grants scheme is scrapped.

And the Tyrone ace believes that many of them will be bound for Australian Rules.

"When you talk about the guys going to Australia, to have something small like that will attract Gaelic footballers to stay here and play the sport they should be playing rather than going to take part in a foreign game in Australia," said Cavanagh, who has twice turned down offers from AFL clubs.

"In most counties, the game is played to a professional standard nowadays and it is like a full-time job. Guys are going to be out of pocket and those grants do help. We would argue that we're being treated as almost professionals in most ways."

Cavanagh has also described the anti-doping regulations inter-county players must adhere to as "unrealistic".

Speaking in the wake of Aidan O'Mahony's failed drugs test, he admitted that he did not know whether everyday medicine was safe to take.

"Whenever you think about it, the guidelines that are places on Gaelic footballers are probably unrealistic.

"I know from the past whenever I have had a cold a few days before a game, I would take a Lempsip and you wouldn't know where it is legal," he added.

He's letting himself down badly there.

Agreed. badly thought out and flippant comments. nothing new for sean.

So the new GPA tactic is this... try to blackmail the GAA with people going to Australia.


I'd rather lose a few than lose many by going pay-for-play (because ultimately, this line of argument leads to just one logical conclusion - match the Australian Rules pay scales or we're off).

I dont agree with his point that a £1,500 grant will stop players going to Austraillia. However I'm all for the best players in the country getting perks like this especially when its not costing the gaa anything. We're losing an awful lot of our top players to professional sports. That cant be good for our games. I cant speak for other counties but the likes of Peter Canavan in Tyrone has helped generate huge interest in the games which surely helps introduce young players. We cant afford to be losing the best players of each generation.

The gaa cant go professional but there's no reason why the best players cant be rewarded for their efforts. They're the people who ultimately sell our games. There's been a lot of complaining here over the years about the gaa not spending enough money promoting our games. In my opinion there's not better way to promote the gaa than to have the best players available. The likes of Canavan,Tohill,McConville have helped keep the gaa as the top organisation in the country. There's no substitute for class like this. I think if the players were getting funding it would make their lives a lot easier and make them think twice about moving to other sports. The gaa could free up some funding. There's no reason capital expenditure has to consider at the levels in the past - the stadiums are generally complete now and facilities in place. The gaa is generating much more revenue than ever before.

If grants from the government,funds from the gaa and businesses can help keep the best players here then I think it has to be considered. The players would have to be treated equally and there'd be no transfer system etc so I dont think it would effect their commitment to their own county. The money would have to come from central funds and the players would have to be available for club football. It has to be remembered that clubs who have brought the top players through our probably losing more than the counties when players go to professional sports.

Can anyone post Eamon Sweeney's piece in yesterday's Independent ? It was a good piece which got you thinking - it gives a perspective from both sides.

Thanks if you can post it.

Drug-free sport is Utopia - Rogge 
Not consistent with the thread but related to what is being discussed. 


Olympic chief Jacques Rogge has told the BBC that hoping for a drug-free Olympic Games is "naive" and that cheating is "embedded in human nature".

Rogge spoke to the BBC's Inside Sport programme as the re-testing of samples from the Beijing Games is set to begin.

"I think one has to be realistic," said Rogge, president of the International Olympic Committee.

"Drug-free sport in general is Utopia. It will be naive to believe that no-one will take drugs."

He added: "There are about 400m people practising sport on this globe, there are not 400m saints on earth.

Drugs are there to treat the patients. The problem is that they are abused by athletes

IOC President Jacques Rogge 
"Cheating is embedded in human nature and doping is to sport what criminality is to society.

"You will always need cops and judges and prisons and jails and rules and regulations."

Rogge revealed that the imminent re-testing of samples from the Beijing Games will target insulin, as well as Cera, an advanced version of endurance-enhancing hormone EPO.

"We are going to re-test all the blood samples from Beijing," said Rogge.

"About 980 blood samples will be tested for erythropoietin [Cera], the new EPO test, but also insulin.

606: DEBATE
Give your reaction to Rogge's view
"So we are starting this re-testing, it will last a couple of weeks, so we'll see what comes out of it."

All the samples currently held will be available for testing by any new techniques that emerge between now and the 2016 Games.

"We are keeping the samples for eight years and we are going to re-test them," said Rogge.

"And ultimately the judgement on the Beijing Games will be given in eight years' time, because each time a new scientific test is coming up we are going to re-test."

And asked if the drug-makers will always be one step ahead of the testers, Rogge admitted: "I'd say as an MD myself that I am very glad about that.

"Drugs are there to treat the patients. The problem is that they are abused by athletes."

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 24, 2008, 06:55:50 PM

QuoteGPA ponders drug testing boycott

The Gaelic Players Association has asked its members to vote on whether they should boycott future drug tests.

This follows Kerry star Aidan O'Mahony's recent positive drugs test and the Irish Government's admission that player grants are under threat.

On Friday, the GAA lifted the provisional ban imposed on O'Mahony pending a full hearing of the case.

Irish Sports Minister Martin Cullen has said that the grants scheme is being threatened by the economic downturn.

O'Mahony's positive test was for adverse levels of Salbutamol in his urine on the day of the All-Ireland final against Tyrone.

A number of GAA players and commentators have claimed that the association's amateur players should not have to undergo drug testing although, it has been pointed out that the sport signed up to the Irish Sports Council's drug testing guidelines in 2001.

Like other sports, the GAA receives funding from the Irish Sports Council.

The GPA texted its members asking: "Due to the threat of grant withdrawal and recent positive drug test, players suggest we should boycott anti-doping code. Do you agree?"

Last week, GPA chief executive Dessie Farrell said he was hopeful that the scheme would continue despite the economic downturn.

He added that the players' body was prepared to accept an eight per cent reduction in funding next year.

Around 3.5 million Euro was provided to pay this year's grants but the Irish Sport Council's budget is certain to be reduced in 2009.

Last year, a deal was agreed between the Gaelic Players' Association, the GAA and the ISC to fund two schemes to meet costs for senior intercounty players.

Minister Cullen met with the GPA recently and spoke to them about the possibility of an eight per cent cut across the board in funding for the Irish Sports Council.

"We'd be prepared to work with that, but anything else would make it extremely difficult," said Farrell.

"What disappoints us is that after six years campaigning for the grants, they would come under threat so soon.

"They have become a central tenet of player welfare and will become even more so because GAA players are losing their jobs too.

"It's diappointing - this campaign was born after the 2002 Finance Bill when professional athletes got lucrative tax breaks - there was no reference to professional tax breaks today.

"That begs the question: why is it always the amateur, why is it always the GAA player?

"In light of what's gone on in Kerry, there are more and more professional standards players must adhere to.

"Players nowadays come under great media scrutiny on and off the field and we feel it's only fair the grant is provided and should be secure thereafter."

Meanwhile GAA president Nickey Brennan said it was his hope that the Government would continue to honour the terms of the agreement reached in November last year.

He added that he believed that the schemes as rolled out in 2008 had been an appropriate recognition of the contribution of senior intercounty players to the social, economic and cultural life of the nation.

He said the GAA would be talking to the GPA in the coming days in relation to the matter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/7745767.stm

Doesn't refusing to a give a urine sample or missing such a test you're asked to attend when requested lead to a suspension? I'm thinking of Rio Ferdinand and Mike Tyson here... If this route was taken, things would get very messy.

What f***ing planet is Farrell on??  An absolutely crazy proposal!

I think the Eamon Sweeney piece was total off the wall when you consider what he wrote the previous week. He cannot make his mind up on what he wants or what side of the fence to stand on. One thing for sure the man sitting on the fence is wavering in the breeze.  Me thinks he is lliving in the wilderness too long.

Sweeney is a bit of a header anyway. sure he could come up with anything

Was chattin to one of the lads on the Sligo panel in work the other day, apparantely the grants are coming in within the next week. Nice for some.

No surprises here lads - what do you think ?


Conway would be happy to see grants go
28 November 2008


The most vocal critic of the grants scheme for inter-county players has expressed his hope that the Government will "pull the plug" on it.

Tyrone man Mark Conway was one of the leading figures in the Of One Belief group that campaigned against the grants scheme and challenged its introduction at Congress and with the Disputes Resolution Authority earlier this year.

"My view is the same as it was a year ago," he said. "It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

"It's a fundamental contradiction of what the GAA stands for that members get paid to play at a certain level. I wouldn't want to sound hateful, but if the Government pull the plug on it, it would be the right decision. It would be rectifying a wrong."

The GPA has threatened to boycott drug testing if the Government carries out its threat to scrap the grants scheme after just one year due to the economic downturn. But Conway feels this is a problem of their own making.

"You have to do certain things if you get the money. There are things tied into that, whether people like it or not.

"So you have to submit to the drug testing regime. I was never in favour of the testing of any of our players because they are amateurs.

"The GAA was different from any other organisation in that regard but anybody who signed up for the grants walked into it with their eyes wide open. They took the grant so they have to buy into that. They can't pick and choose. Maybe the chickens are coming home to roost now."

Quote from: orangeman on November 21, 2008, 02:22:40 PM
Cavanagh fears AFL exodus over grants

Tyrone's Sean Cavanagh surges past a helpless Adrian Morrissey of Wexford in the All-Ireland SFC semi-final
21 November 2008


Footballer of the Year and GPA secretary Sean Cavanagh has warned that the GAA's best young players will turn their backs on the sport if the player grants scheme is scrapped.

And the Tyrone ace believes that many of them will be bound for Australian Rules.

"When you talk about the guys going to Australia, to have something small like that will attract Gaelic footballers to stay here and play the sport they should be playing rather than going to take part in a foreign game in Australia," said Cavanagh, who has twice turned down offers from AFL clubs.

"In most counties, the game is played to a professional standard nowadays and it is like a full-time job. Guys are going to be out of pocket and those grants do help. We would argue that we're being treated as almost professionals in most ways."

Cavanagh has also described the anti-doping regulations inter-county players must adhere to as "unrealistic".

Speaking in the wake of Aidan O'Mahony's failed drugs test, he admitted that he did not know whether everyday medicine was safe to take.

"Whenever you think about it, the guidelines that are places on Gaelic footballers are probably unrealistic.

"I know from the past whenever I have had a cold a few days before a game, I would take a Lempsip and you wouldn't know where it is legal," he added.

i think if I were in the position where I was undecided between going down under to play Aussie rules or staying here, a couple of hundred quid here and there would be every bit as important as the 1500 yoyos