government grants to GAA players -- not getting into prefessionalism etc

[behind the wire]

well thats done and dusted suppose we cant do much about it now. but just a few things to note:

the whole episode has shown the gaa top table to be elitists who appear to think that they can do their own thing (and are doing so). the whole episode has been openly regarded as underhand and sneaky from the outset. the gaa having to re-fashion the whole thing 2 or 3 times simply stands to support this fact.

i think the prevailing view is that this is just the start of it. many problems existing in the gaa have been identified during this debate ie payments to managers etc - i feel we now have no chance of reversing any of these trends. (hope im wrong)

i have a fair idea that in a few years time some of those who supported the grants will be spouting from their armchairs about the lack of loyalty and volunteer ethos in gaa clubs. but only time will tell.

ROSSFAN - you are an eejit. orangeman, hardy etc have shown themselves over long periods of time to be true gaa men with the best interests of the gaa at heart. they have always presented their arguments rationally and had respect for (most) others during the whole debate. in fact, i think there is a good chance that much of what they say will be proved right over the coming years. for you to refer to them in such a manner shos you up for what you are.

and lastly:

NICK BRENNAN shame on you. you try to come across as the genuine 'supporter' but have been shown up to be nothing more than a news reader for dessie and duffy's script.

[Rossfan]

So let's get this straight ? --
me,Nicky Brennan,the GAA top brass, the vast majority of Congress are all out of step.
We are also not true GAA people and havent got the interests of the GAA at heart.
Only the purity police who crept out of the woodwork last November know what's right and proper for CLCG.

Jasus will ye give over the crapology.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

me,Nicky Brennan,the GAA top brass, the vast majority of Congress are all out of step...

At least that much you recognise Rossfan 

Truth is, no one really knows with absolute certainty where this will lead, sooner or later, but the thin edge of the wedge it surely is.

[magpie seanie]

Rossfan - why do you feel the need to ridicule those of us on the opposite side to yourself? Its unnecessary and unhelpful but an all to frequent method of "debate" in modern Ireland. I'm being honest from every cell of my being on this. In 10-15 years we will have a form of professionalism - I can now see that this can not be averted. Isn't it amazing that this will happen even though everyone by their own declaration doesn't want it? I can take a lot of reverses. As a GAA man most of us lose more than you win so you gain an ability to deal with it. What I cannot take is liars and cheats. The dishonesty surrounding his issue is what is sickening to folk like me. Some people want professionalism but don't have the balls to say so or argue their case. They will get it by dishonest means. I've no respect for people that operate like that and they obviously have no respect for the likes of me.

You can ridicule me if you like but what good will that do. I'm entited to my opinion and won't be shouted down by you. Yes - "we've lost" and we will have to find a way to get over it. The only thing that hurts more is that there are worse reverses to come in the years ahead.

[pintsofguinness]

I feel sick.

[Rossfan]

Seánie,
It's not the genuine arguments against the "expenses" "grants" or whatever that bothers me. It's the holier than thou attitudes, the strident tones, the running down of Dessie Farrell, of the GPA, of Nicky Brennan, of the majority votes, of the GAA "top table" of anyone and everyone who doesnt agree with the narrow viewpoint of the anti expenses/grants minority.
(They remind me of my neighbour's party - the Republican Sinn Féin  )

With all due respects the "slide to professionalism" surely began the day jersey advertising was allowed followed by allowing players to cash in on their name and fame by endorsements/opening supermarkets etc. Not to mention of course the medal presentations.
In that sense GAA players arent truly amateur the way golf/boxing is because they have pro versions as well and need to keep a strict demarcation line.
The vast majority at Congress voted to go ahead with this scheme and I am quite prepared to trust in the majority of the GAA membership to do the right thing (almost) always as they have been doing for 120 years or so.

[magpie seanie]

With all due respects the "slide to professionalism" surely began the day jersey advertising was allowed followed by allowing players to cash in on their name and fame by endorsements/opening supermarkets etc

All of those changes were after high powered committees were commissioned to examine their impact on amateur status. Not so this time and people are entitled to ask why. I think its a case of the emporers new clothes to be honest.

People are entitled to question the GAA top brass, the GPA, etc if they like. Its called democracy. ou choose to trust them and thats fair enough. I don't to be honest. I can see why things are going this way but I don't agree with it. INDIANA's post earlier was excellent in my view. I fear th horse has bolted now though.

[deiseach]

Rossfan, your line of reasoning is akin to saying that because the judicial review undertaken by Thomas Davis in the matter of Tallaght Stadium was dismissed, Thomas Davis were therefore in the wrong. You can accept that due process has been followed and still feel misgivings.

[Rossfan]

[
People are entitled to question the GAA top brass, the GPA, etc if they like. Its called democracy.

Democracy is also about accepting the will of the majority. The majority have spoken by accepting something that the GAA looked for 5 or 6 years ago and got committments from Govt then.
If ye cant trust our own membership and Congress what the hell are ye at? The people have no right to do whet ye think is wrong??
Déiseach -all I'm asking is that the antigranters do like Thos Davis - accept reality and move on.

I dont agree with the move to re extend the Qualifiers but I'm not going to run down Wicklow/Brennan/Duffy/ all who voted for the motion and call them all sorts of names like untrustworthy etc.
I think it's called maturity.

[orangeman]

The GAA's ruling body - congress - democratically voted to accept this scheme.
Take ye're batin and move on for **** sake .
Enough of the"everyone's out of step except us in the purity corner"

I don't see it as a bating ! Obviously you do and you're so happy about it - I hope you're still as happy in a few years time. Maybe you will be - maybe you'll have a job with the professional players union, negotiating the next pay settlement.

As other posters have said, I have tried to present my argument, without insulting those who might hold opposite views. I am not taking a "holier than thou" attitude. I have argued consistently that the GAA hierarchy have been sneaky in their approach and have turned their coats on this issue. That's the bit that really annoys me - it's not the fact that players are getting some money in itself, it's the whole principle and how the hierarchy conducted themselves on this sorry issue.

But sure as long as you have victory, what odds about the rest of us !

[INDIANA]

Rossfan this is a fundamental change in the history of association that the top brass have attempted to trivalise as like marking the lining of a pitch. For the first time in the history of the association players officially will be paid to play for their county. Now pardon me if some of us as grassroots members feel the need to question the liberal attitude of the top brass towards this.
The issue was never debated at grassroots level. Upon the intervention of Conway it was found the original proposal that the top brass were going to railroad through was flawed! I have no problem with players getting the general perks going at that level but i draw the line at this "expenses" lark. You can't have a little bit of professionalism- you are either amateur or you're not. And we're not anymore. This is the beginning of the end. I've followed aussie rules for years and the parallels are striking in how their game eventually became professional.
Have you ever been given a reduction in salary when you went for your annual increase? I know i haven't. Are people naive enough to think this won't increase. With the demise of the Celtic Tiger do people really think Cowen and Co are going to continue to fund this indefintely? That when they pull the plug that Dessie and Co will fold up their tents and ride off into the sunset? Not a chance - they'll be looking for Tv money next.
They claim if they train less the standard will drop. I;m not convinced by that argument because i don't believe the skill level is exponentially greater than 15 year ago- the speed and power is. But the trade off is not worth it. It is not worth the greed,politics and general bullshit that surround professional sport for a 5-10% increase in standard.
People can laugh if they want but you mark my words. In 10-15 years time county players won;t play for their clubs and it'll be the GPA necogiating the TV rights not the Gaa.

[orangeman]

Rossfan this is a fundamental change in the history of association that the top brass have attempted to trivalise as like marking the lining of a pitch. For the first time in the history of the association players officially will be paid to play for their county. Now pardon me if some of us as grassroots members feel the need to question the liberal attitude of the top brass towards this.
The issue was never debated at grassroots level. Upon the intervention of Conway it was found the original proposal that the top brass were going to railroad through was flawed! I have no problem with players getting the general perks going at that level but i draw the line at this "expenses" lark. You can't have a little bit of professionalism- you are either amateur or you're not. And we're not anymore. This is the beginning of the end. I've followed aussie rules for years and the parallels are striking in how their game eventually became professional.
Have you ever been given a reduction in salary when you went for your annual increase? I know i haven't. Are people naive enough to think this won't increase. With the demise of the Celtic Tiger do people really think Cowen and Co are going to continue to fund this indefintely? That when they pull the plug that Dessie and Co will fold up their tents and ride off into the sunset? Not a chance - they'll be looking for Tv money next.
They claim if they train less the standard will drop. I;m not convinced by that argument because i don't believe the skill level is exponentially greater than 15 year ago- the speed and power is. But the trade off is not worth it. It is not worth the greed,politics and general bullshit that surround professional sport for a 5-10% increase in standard.
People can laugh if they want but you mark my words. In 10-15 years time county players won;t play for their clubs and it'll be the GPA necogiating the TV rights not the Gaa.

Donal O'Neill former GPA Chief executive reckoned that this was his preferred method of getting paid.

Indiana - Sadly I think it will be less than 10 years before we lose county players to the clubs ! 

[LaurelEye]

The GAA's ruling body - congress - democratically voted to accept this scheme.
Take ye're batin and move on for **** sake .
Enough of the"everyone's out of step except us in the purity corner"

I don't see it as a bating ! Obviously you do and you're so happy about it - I hope you're still as happy in a few years time. Maybe you will be - maybe you'll have a job with the professional players union, negotiating the next pay settlement.

Nah, after Roscommon plc have been wound up he'll have to change his name to Mayofan...

[Zulu]

I have argued consistently that the GAA hierarchy have been sneaky in their approach and have turned their coats on this issue. That's the bit that really annoys me - it's not the fact that players are getting some money in itself, it's the whole principle and how the hierarchy conducted themselves on this sorry issue.

OM didn't you argue consistently that the Cork players were wrong to strike considering the fact that the clubs voted for the CB proposal. I pointed out to you the undemocratic and debateable nature of those voted but you still thought that the players were wrong because democracy had spoken? I'm not having a pop at you OM but democracy in the GAA is riddled with politics and is rarely an expression of the grassroot view, in saying that I believe the GAA did the right thing today. 

The issue was never debated at grassroots level. Upon the intervention of Conway it was found the original proposal that the top brass were going to railroad through was flawed! I have no problem with players getting the general perks going at that level but i draw the line at this "expenses" lark. You can't have a little bit of professionalism- you are either amateur or you're not. And we're not anymore.

Indiana we haven't been truely amateur for many years now, but I don't believe that this grant will lead to the scenario you paint. Many county players aren't available to their clubs now and rightly so IMO if county players stop playing for their clubs in the future then that may not be such a bad thing. But hopefully it won't be for money but out of realism.

[cornafean]

The GAA's ruling body - congress - democratically voted to accept this scheme.
Take ye're batin and move on for **** sake .
Enough of the"everyone's out of step except us in the purity corner"

This notion that Congress is infallible in the way that the Pope is and Emperor Hirohito was until 1945 is bizarre. A few years ago, Congress voted for a sin bin. Look what happened. A few years ago, Congress voted to exclude Division 4 teams from the All Ireland Qualifiers.  Look what happened.

Both these decisions were reversed, as they were both regarded in hindsight as mistakes. And yet today, the pro-Rule 11  & anti-grants lobby are told to forget the issue ever happened and "move on" as if they were undesirables blocking the public road.