government grants to GAA players -- not getting into prefessionalism etc

[Uladh]

I apologise Zulu but that is a boast and is only put forward to excuse your " I know it all" attitude on the subject. Just beacuse you coach every team in the club doesn't entitle you to speak authoritively on each and every subject that is debated !

At least he has an excuse...

[orangeman]

I apologise Zulu but that is a boast and is only put forward to excuse your " I know it all" attitude on the subject. Just beacuse you coach every team in the club doesn't entitle you to speak authoritively on each and every subject that is debated !

At least he has an excuse...

[feetofflames]

This will be us!!!
Players will play for their counties only the county boards will probably split into club level and county board level, ultimately leaving 2 different admin boards.  Players will get the dough creamed off from their playing in a semi pro / pro intercounty set up.   Elite players will be trained with county development squads and brought through, contracted or discarded post 18.  The GAA will take some of their competitve games to New York, Philadelphia, and other areas around the globe.  Hurling will be left to be dealt with as the clubs are.
Its NFL but not as we know it!   
The realtionship between the clubs and the counties will be destroyed by this, but then again there are a number of county board men and represenmtative who give f/a back to their clubs at the moment.  Why should the county players be any different?
As for being despondant we have lost the jewell in our crown, we might as well marry our games to the AFL because in reality it wasnt the few rule differences, it was the idealogy which set us apart.  Fair play to Dessie, Nicky and the boys.

[cornafean]

This will be us!!!
Players will play for their counties only the county boards will probably split into club level and county board level, ultimately leaving 2 different admin boards.  Players will get the dough creamed off from their playing in a semi pro / pro intercounty set up.   Elite players will be trained with county development squads and brought through, contracted or discarded post 18.  The GAA will take some of their competitve games to New York, Philadelphia, and other areas around the globe.  Hurling will be left to be dealt with as the clubs are.
Its NFL but not as we know it!   
The realtionship between the clubs and the counties will be destroyed by this, but then again there are a number of county board men and represenmtative who give f/a back to their clubs at the moment.  Why should the county players be any different?
As for being despondant we have lost the jewell in our crown, we might as well marry our games to the AFL because in reality it wasnt the few rule differences, it was the idealogy which set us apart.  Fair play to Dessie, Nicky and the boys.

I honestly can't see this happening. At least without a major split within the association that would paralyse it, and render many county boards powerless due to lack of volunteers.

[Uladh]

I think there's general agreement that the manipulation of the branding of these grants has been grubby and underhand. the GAA certainly have not covered themselves in glory with that or the handling of getting an input from the general GAA membership. for what its worth, i think the original proposal would have got majority approval but would not have stood up to rule 11 scrutiny from the minority who were determined to oppose the funding in whatever form.

As a supporter of the general principle from the outset it is easy to see how the Croke Park's thinking developed... obviously increasingly influenced by solicitors and the wording of rules. The GAA agreed in principle last autumn to the proposal of government monetary awards to IC players without analysing how they would bring it inside the current rules. Personally, i was happy with that and assumed that those who should know about these things would look after the detail. They eventually did but not as smoothly or coherently as i'd have expected.

The arguments since that date have been based on intricate rules and basically symantics but the actual argument has always been one of accepting or not of the original principle. The government are funding basic sports grants for what is the only section of our association we have ring fenced as "elite". Using the the rule book and lawyer speak to oppose a scheme which should be argued for on funadamentals pure and simple was disengenuous in my book but maybe those involved felt it was their best hope of success.

The flagship argument against became the claim of professionalism and the contravention of rule 11. For that reason, the DRA's ruling effectively ended any hope of the scheme being reversed. In my book, "of one belief" diluted their message when they sought to win on technicalities and should have fought the fight on the principle of accepting any sort of money for any member in any circumstance and convincning the grassroots that the idea was fundamentally wron. In my view, the Grassroots were nowhere near convinced on that point and largely indifferent to the whole hullabaloo.

I also agree that the "expenses" dress the GAA have adorned the grant money with is more than a little uncomfortable. i suppose pragmatism dictated that some vehicle strictly within the rule book had to be found and to be fair to the top brass they are old hands at sleight of hand like this. I guess the basic defence of increasing expenses for teams who go further is simply that their championship term is extended and they incur more expense the further it goes. Arguing about who drives to training, national or civil service rates or breaking out the calculator for grocery costs and lost overtime is missing the point. Its a means to an end and i'm not sure anyone is that worried about the detail.

I also agree with az that this version makes things more difficult to roll back. If it rears its head, trouble is going to  come because the GAA have now recognised that this is the level of expenses an elite amateur player, training to current IC standards and attracting thousands of paying customers every time they field, can expect. If the Government funding goes (and i still very much doubt it ever will), the GPA can then argue that the GAA must meet the expenses that they have officially recognised so players are not out of pocket. as i say i don't believe it'll happen but its a stick the GAA have handed the GPA for future use.

On the classification of players into club and county categories, i find some of the terminology and the attitude to them disappointing. They're all club players until elivated for whatever brief period of time they can be some further worth squeezed out of them by a county team. barring injury, virtually no player retires from county and club at the same time. Granted, the county will generally take the best of a player when they can but it has always been that every club strove to be privileged enough to help the county. the traditional aims and aspirations of clubs and just as importantly individuals remain the same i believe. Young lads grow up wanting to play for their club then aspire to wear the county jersey at various levels for whatever fleeting period of time they can. But the club will always be the backbone i believe and i believe county players are no different in mindset from every other member of the association.

[feetofflames]

Not often we agree Uladh but I would agree with your usage of the following.

"grubby and underhand. "

[magpie seanie]

But the club will always be the backbone

Like in rugby.  

There are several things I'd disagree with in your post and one of them is this -

In my book, "of one belief" diluted their message when they sought to win on technicalities and should have fought the fight on the principle of accepting any sort of money for any member in any circumstance and convincning the grassroots that the idea was fundamentally wron. In my view, the Grassroots were nowhere near convinced on that point and largely indifferent to the whole hullabaloo.

I think you are unfair in your criticism. In many counties, including my own, there was no discussion about the so-called grants (lets call them expenses becasue grants would be contrary to rule 11) and the county board just went along with the instructions from Croke Park. How else then can you fight against them? I think its perfectly valid to use any and all structures within the GAA to seek remedy. That's what they are there for. Of one belief were correct that the initially framed proposal was a direct breach of amateurism despite declarations by all and sundry to the contrary. They are owed a debt of gratitude for showing the lengths that the establishment will go to to keep the GPA happy. Congress is supposed to be the supreme decision making body of the GAA - it is now no longer the case.

People like Nickey Brennan are not bad people. They have just given up the fight.

[orangeman]

But the club will always be the backbone

Like in rugby.  

There are several things I'd disagree with in your post and one of them is this -

In my book, "of one belief" diluted their message when they sought to win on technicalities and should have fought the fight on the principle of accepting any sort of money for any member in any circumstance and convincning the grassroots that the idea was fundamentally wron. In my view, the Grassroots were nowhere near convinced on that point and largely indifferent to the whole hullabaloo.

I think you are unfair in your criticism. In many counties, including my own, there was no discussion about the so-called grants (lets call them expenses becasue grants would be contrary to rule 11) and the county board just went along with the instructions from Croke Park. How else then can you fight against them? I think its perfectly valid to use any and all structures within the GAA to seek remedy. That's what they are there for. Of one belief were correct that the initially framed proposal was a direct breach of amateurism despite declarations by all and sundry to the contrary. They are owed a debt of gratitude for showing the lengths that the establishment will go to to keep the GPA happy. Congress is supposed to be the supreme decision making body of the GAA - it is now no longer the case.

People like Nickey Brennan are not bad people. They have just given up the fight.

I wouldn't agree entirely that they have given up the fight - I would instead contend that they backed down in the face of stike action threatened by Dessie and as the GAA were in the middle of negotiating a huge sponsorship and TV rights package, they had to bend over backwards and abandon all principles that they previously held dear.

[Uladh]

Congress is supposed to be the supreme decision making body of the GAA - it is now no longer the case.

People like Nickey Brennan are not bad people. They have just given up the fight.

Because you happen to disagree with a congress decision?

Can you so easily dismiss the charachter and intentions of some of the most highly regarded people in the association simply because they, along with the majority of members, disagree with you?

[cornafean]

Uladh, its not so long since you personally attacked my own "charachter and intentions" in response to my criticism of the 17/3/08 grants/expenses scheme, which you now criticise as "grubby and underhand" I'm puzzled to say the least. 

[orangeman]

Congress is supposed to be the supreme decision making body of the GAA - it is now no longer the case.

People like Nickey Brennan are not bad people. They have just given up the fight.

Because you happen to disagree with a congress decision?

Can you so easily dismiss the charachter and intentions of some of the most highly regarded people in the association simply because they, along with the majority of members, disagree with you?

Uladh you have some good points and have expressed them well - however I believe that all along you have this misplaced belief that the majority of GAA members are in favour of what is "pay for play", "expenses", "grants" or whatever confabulated term you wish you employ depending on the circumstances.

How do you know for an absolute fact that we who are opposed to pay for play, expenses, grants etc etc are in a tiny minority ?

[Uladh]

cornafean - i don't recall that but given your posting history i'd be pretty confident you'd have given plenty of reason to question your character.
I could be completely wrong here and if so i'm sure seanie will say so cos he's a big boy... if Brennan and Duffy had frontlined an opposition to the grants would that have been enough for them to have retained their previous good standing within the GAA in your eyes?

OM - there are no absolute certainties outside of a referendum so i can only go on my personal experiences. i have documented this already on this and similar threads. since january but here goes: i've regualrly attended club and county games, club meetings of various committees, various age group trainings and social club events in the newry / s armagh vicinity. the longest discussion i've ever heard on the grants issue has been on who yer man mark conway is and where did he pop up from. You can hang me on this next line but the ordiary gaa man really doesn't have an opinion on this. we are concerned about our clubs and the work ongoing and coming up. we chat about the county team and their prospects but thats it. thats my experience.

i'd be interested in seriel grump and president of the anti everything bar the bridge (which includes grants) president POG's comments on the matter. his club should be reflective in outlook of most s armagh clubs.

[INDIANA]

it isn't indicative of the grassroots. The bottom is this -this was rail-roaded through to avoid the players going on strike for the summer- that was the thinly veiled ultimatium by the GPA. The thought of empty stadiums during the summer concerned the gaa top brass to the extent that they meekly gave in. As a result Brennan has just postponed the stand off and will be able to say "it didn't happen on my watch".
At some point (and this will happen)- there will be a stand off between inter county players in general and the GAA about looking for substantial payment ie- a cut of tv money or gate receipts. The gaa top brass will baulk at the notion and then the real plays begin.THis is inevitable after saturday. I my view i wouldn't have permitted the grants because of what's coming down the line. We'd have been better having the stand off now- because it's going to happen. Once you decide on semi-professionalism you can't stop what will follow because it's a natural progression. In the 80's aussie rules was semi-professional they said professionalism ie million dollar salaries would never happen- look at it now.
The clubs weren't even mandatted nationally on this. The reality is your average clubman like myself simply feels totally removed and disenchanted from the top brass in the association. They don't give a rat's ass about the grassroots or their views- they will do exactly as they bloody well like. The day of the grass-roots member being able to make a difference is long gone. And don't we know it.

[orangeman]

cornafean - i don't recall that but given your posting history i'd be pretty confident you'd have given plenty of reason to question your character.
I could be completely wrong here and if so i'm sure seanie will say so cos he's a big boy... if Brennan and Duffy had frontlined an opposition to the grants would that have been enough for them to have retained their previous good standing within the GAA in your eyes?

OM - there are no absolute certainties outside of a referendum so i can only go on my personal experiences. i have documented this already on this and similar threads. since january but here goes: i've regualrly attended club and county games, club meetings of various committees, various age group trainings and social club events in the newry / s armagh vicinity. the longest discussion i've ever heard on the grants issue has been on who yer man mark conway is and where did he pop up from. You can hang me on this next line but the ordiary gaa man really doesn't have an opinion on this. we are concerned about our clubs and the work ongoing and coming up. we chat about the county team and their prospects but thats it. thats my experience.

i'd be interested in seriel grump and president of the anti everything bar the bridge (which includes grants) president POG's comments on the matter. his club should be reflective in outlook of most s armagh clubs.

Uladh - you're arguments were going well until - " the ordinary gaa man really doesn't have an opinion on this " !!!   All the ground you had made has now been lost with this statement.

Can I offer you my personal experience ? Yes I agree there are some people out there who don't really have an opinion one way or the other, but I would say the majority do hold an opinion, one way or the other - I suppose it depends on where you live etc but I know an awful lot of people who are vehemently opposed to pay for play, expenses, grants etc.

What club does POG belong to ?

[Uladh]

The sentiment was that it is not a major issue for the ordinary GAA volunteer. but then you knew that - or should have.

There are hundreds of regular posters on this site. how many have been motivated to post on the grants threads? 40? 50?

POG is a Silverbridge man.