government grants to GAA players -- not getting into prefessionalism etc

[muppet]

I have often heard that the Kerry players of the 1970/80s are all destroyed with injuries from their playing days.

Its injuries from their training days that has them knackered, the playing days were a doddle.

[magpie seanie]

Uladh - there is a huge and growing collection of idiots on this board so do us a favour and don't bail out as it would be one less good poster. I know it can be hard though.

I agree, and that's as one who is vehemently opposed to the GPA's agenda and makes no apology about campaigning against it here as strongly and as consistently as I can.

Hound, I resent your suggestion that people who oppose the GPA's agenda do it out of envy. It's a cheap argument and represents no truth other than your own prejudice and presumption that people who disagree with you are wrong by definition. I can assure you that my opposition to them is based on my belief that they are fundamentally inimical to the ethos of the GAA.

However, I do believe that we have won the major battle and the GPA itself no longer believes it can achieve pay for play, beyond the level available (or not! from government grants. I still very strongly resent their elitism and promotion of themselves as a special group worthy of special privileges (the only one in the GAA).

I'm not sure there were ever many (if any) within the thousands who have been GPA members who intended to achieve pay for play status.

I believe that the gaa elevated intercounty players to "special" status. by the GAA i mean the association in its many guises.

administration did it years ago by subjecting them to international olympic standard drug testing and the lifestyle curtailments that go with it. only this small band of the hundreds of thousands of GAA members are pushed forward for this.

county boards and managers have contributed by shelling out ever increasing thousands to employ professional people from every corner of professional sport to demand more and more from them. strength and conditioning coaches, dieticians, fitness coaches, speed coaches, lifestyle coaches, psychologists, etc. each pushing the boundaries and the requirments from players, because that is what they are paid to do.

all this before being required to play football!

but much more than that, we the fan demand more and more from them. the bachelor boys training at 6 in the morning won the all ireland- everyone had to do it or they were not up to it. 4, 5, 6 nights a week, la manga, whatever new urban myth promises success it has to be done.

how often does the ordinary fan complain about their county men that they're not good enough, not committed enough, not fit enough, too heavy, too slow, etc. to play for X. "i saw x in the local last week and it less than a month til the championship!".

if we're honest we demand the very highest standards from intercounty players - standards that many professional sportsmen fail to meet. one of the biggest reasons for my pride in the GAA is how we can produce so many athletes and games of the highest quality, that would be the envy of many a professional sport, in a unique and amateur environment. with all that goes into this i for one don't begrudge the government recognising county players for their commitment to excellence and their contribution to gaelic games - the centre piece of many peoples lives in this country and joyous sports to be part of.

If you believe that the E1400 expenses grant or whatever they get is putting them on a professional footing when they are actually doing all of the above while working full time and meeting life commitments, then fair enough. i can't agree.

I see your point and are with lots of what you say but I don't necessarily agree with the thrust of it all. Firstly I would agree with your assertion about ordinary GPA members but would suspect this is not true of the leadership.

Throughout the rest of it I find it hard agree with your apportionment of the blame for this elevation to "special" status of county players as you put it. At best its a chicken and egg thing over the drug testing thing but you blame "administration". You blame county boards for spending money on employing the best methods to prepare teams. I find that very strange. The county board hardly all sat round the table and said - you know what, we'll send the lads to La Manga this spring and they'll do the divil and all. "Good" county boards are the ones that can provide what the players and management want/need in pursuit of success yet you blame them for spending the money.

You make a point about "fans" demanding things from county players and you have a point there to a degree. But the people that put the biggest demands on the players are undoubtedly themselves, their team mates and team management. You didn't mention that anywhere.  The players are not slaves. They do it because they enjoy it and the prospect of success makes their sacrifices worthwhile. Any argument that doesn't take cognisance of this is flawed.

[johnpower]

Uladh - there is a huge and growing collection of idiots on this board so do us a favour and don't bail out as it would be one less good poster. I know it can be hard though.

I agree, and that's as one who is vehemently opposed to the GPA's agenda and makes no apology about campaigning against it here as strongly and as consistently as I can.

Hound, I resent your suggestion that people who oppose the GPA's agenda do it out of envy. It's a cheap argument and represents no truth other than your own prejudice and presumption that people who disagree with you are wrong by definition. I can assure you that my opposition to them is based on my belief that they are fundamentally inimical to the ethos of the GAA.

However, I do believe that we have won the major battle and the GPA itself no longer believes it can achieve pay for play, beyond the level available (or not! from government grants. I still very strongly resent their elitism and promotion of themselves as a special group worthy of special privileges (the only one in the GAA).

I'm not sure there were ever many (if any) within the thousands who have been GPA members who intended to achieve pay for play status.

I believe that the gaa elevated intercounty players to "special" status. by the GAA i mean the association in its many guises.

administration did it years ago by subjecting them to international olympic standard drug testing and the lifestyle curtailments that go with it. only this small band of the hundreds of thousands of GAA members are pushed forward for this.

county boards and managers have contributed by shelling out ever increasing thousands to employ professional people from every corner of professional sport to demand more and more from them. strength and conditioning coaches, dieticians, fitness coaches, speed coaches, lifestyle coaches, psychologists, etc. each pushing the boundaries and the requirments from players, because that is what they are paid to do.

all this before being required to play football!

but much more than that, we the fan demand more and more from them. the bachelor boys training at 6 in the morning won the all ireland- everyone had to do it or they were not up to it. 4, 5, 6 nights a week, la manga, whatever new urban myth promises success it has to be done.

how often does the ordinary fan complain about their county men that they're not good enough, not committed enough, not fit enough, too heavy, too slow, etc. to play for X. "i saw x in the local last week and it less than a month til the championship!".

if we're honest we demand the very highest standards from intercounty players - standards that many professional sportsmen fail to meet. one of the biggest reasons for my pride in the GAA is how we can produce so many athletes and games of the highest quality, that would be the envy of many a professional sport, in a unique and amateur environment. with all that goes into this i for one don't begrudge the government recognising county players for their commitment to excellence and their contribution to gaelic games - the centre piece of many peoples lives in this country and joyous sports to be part of.

If you believe that the E1400 expenses grant or whatever they get is putting them on a professional footing when they are actually doing all of the above while working full time and meeting life commitments, then fair enough. i can't agree.

I see your point and are with lots of what you say but I don't necessarily agree with the thrust of it all. Firstly I would agree with your assertion about ordinary GPA members but would suspect this is not true of the leadership.

Throughout the rest of it I find it hard agree with your apportionment of the blame for this elevation to "special" status of county players as you put it. At best its a chicken and egg thing over the drug testing thing but you blame "administration". You blame county boards for spending money on employing the best methods to prepare teams. I find that very strange. The county board hardly all sat round the table and said - you know what, we'll send the lads to La Mange this spring and they'll do the divil and all. "Good" county boards are the ones that can provide what the players and management want/need in pursuit of success yet you blame them for spending the money.

You make a point about "fans" demanding things from county players and you have a point there to a degree. But the people that put the biggest demands on the players are undoubtedly themselves, their team mates and team management. You didn't mention that anywhere.  The players are not slaves. They do it because they enjoy it and the prospect of success makes their sacrifices worthwhile. Any argument that doesn't take cognisance of this is flawed.

With regards fans I think you have to split them into thoes who just demand success and top class performance from their "County Team" at the few games they attend each year and the fans who attend all games both club and underage .

With regards management if you take for example Kevin Walsh who has taken over Sligo will he not be demanding 110 % committment from his players ?

I think that grants maybe the thin end of the wedge but Ireland has changed .The GAA maybe 100+ years old but times changed . For me the grants are not a big issue the real issue is the lack of particpation in major urban areas .the competion from other sports ,the win at all costs demands for the sunshine supporters

[stephenite]

Good piece by Sean Moran on the GAA and how it's had to adapt to modern times

ON GAELIC GAMES: The O'Mahony case may be an innocent misadventure, but for the first time Croke Park has to crank up its various procedures and mechanisms, writes Sean Moran

I REMEMBER one day at school, after an elderly, despairing (in the secular sense) priest had walked out on our class after we had got a bit lively, the headmaster arrived to give us a low-key talking-to on the basis that it wasn't easy growing old and seeing the world change and that we should bear that in mind when conducting ourselves.

It would be an exaggeration to suggest that we were stricken with remorse, but then again the incident lives on, 33 years later.

At present for many members the modern GAA has become that classroom: inexplicably insolent, irritating and mildly threatening. For those of that view the clamour of the past few days must have been unnerving.

The stand-off in Cork becomes increasingly intractable and the verbal conflict ever more personal. Croke Park becomes a talking point in the rugby world for the week before Ireland's international with New Zealand.

But more discomforting than the bitter in-fighting between players and their county board, or the occasional sight of the GAA's stadium packed in anticipation of another sport, has to be the news - inevitable as it was - that a player had failed or tested adversely in doping control.

It doesn't matter that Aidan O'Mahony's long history of asthma and compliance with the notification procedures make suspension an unlikely outcome when he sits before the GAA's Anti-Doping Hearing's Committee; in fact, the player's blamelessness only increases the unease.

The association and its players have gone down the road of modernity and there's not going to be any reversion to simpler times, nor can there be. As a vehicle for sporting involvement the GAA has immense social value even aside from the cultural aspect of the indigenous games. This activity is rightly supported by public funds.

Maybe there was merit in the flinty self-reliance of the past when community effort and local support acquired and developed facilities. One of the things Liam Mulvihill remarked on as having most changed during his 29 years as director general was the growing dependence of county boards on grants from Croke Park and, by extension, the public purse.

Then again, look at the infrastructure that the GAA has built with that assistance and the great use to which it is put. Remaining in splendid isolation was never a desirable course for the association to follow, depriving it of financial assistance and the interaction of those who might not have come into contact with the organisation.

The connection between that issue of public funding and what happened to Aidan O'Mahony is simply that such grants and subventions are linked to the GAA's co-operation in the matter of anti-doping measures. Before the uneasy agreement between the association and the Irish Sports Council in the summer of 2001, pressure had been exerted.

On the eve of congress in April 2001, just as the question of opening Croke Park to other sports was about to be discussed, a wad of €75 million landed on the top table just in time to cut the ground from under the economic argument for repealing the old Rule 42. As the move failed to carry by just one vote, the largesse may well have had a material influence on a decision that was seen as good news for then-taoiseach Bertie Ahern's plan to build Stadium Ireland out in Abbotstown.

A communication between Ahern and then-GAA president SeáMcCague on April 6th, 2001 (curiously only made available to this newspaper under the Freedom of Information Act after appeal to the Information Commissioner) concerning the deal - how the €75 million would be paid and what use the GAA would make of Stadium Ireland - specified at point 13: ". . . The commitments in this letter are conditional on the GAA complying with the Government's anti-doping in sport programme."

There were other pressures. Just as no sport can tolerate the corruption and cheating at the heart of doping, neither is any sport immune from the dangers of the practice, which poses significant health risks to any player so tempted.

In team games the influence that drugs can have is not as obvious as in individual contests of strength and speed. But even team sports are composed of individual contests. Aspects of games like rugby and football place a premium on strength. Then there is the widespread function of steroids to enable the body to train harder for longer. There's no drug that will make you hurl like Henry Shefflin or kick a ball like Colm Cooper, but there are drugs that will help you run after either of them all day - and that has its uses.

Dope testing is an unwelcome intrusion into the GAA's world, as has been seen over the past couple of days. The O'Mahony case may be an innocent misadventure, but for the first time Croke Park has to crank up its various procedures and mechanisms.

It is also acknowledged that the Sports Council - and maybe even Wada, the world doping authority, which is very concerned by the growing potential abuse of asthma medication - will be keeping a close eye on proceedings.

Then there is the difficulty for the player himself as the matter is processed. O'Mahony has never been the most public of players and the whole focus can only have been upsetting for him.

So nobody doubts the intrusiveness, but this is no different to what virtually all other elite athletes have to tolerate in the course of their disciplines. Furthermore, Gaelic players often forget that elite athletes are frequently more "amateur" than top hurlers and footballers because they have to fend for themselves and prepare without a fraction of the infrastructural back-up available to the country's largest sports organisation and the players' body, the GPA.

In any event, it would be unthinkable for the GAA to try to stand aside from the struggle against drugs in sport. But for everyone involved, players, administrators and members, it's an anxious departure from simpler, more certain times.

smoran@irish-times.ie

© 2008 The Irish Times

[Hound]

Hound, I resent your suggestion that people who oppose the GPA's agenda do it out of envy. It's a cheap argument and represents no truth other than your own prejudice and presumption that people who disagree with you are wrong by definition. I can assure you that my oposition to them is based on my belief that they are fundamentally inimical to the ethos of the GAA.

However, I do believe that we have won the major battle and the GPA itself no longer believes it can achieve pay for play, beyuond the level available (or not! from government grants. I still very strongly resent their elitism and promotion of themselves as a special group worthy of special privileges (the only one in the GAA).

As I said, the usual mantra - why do they get something while we get nothing.
The opposition to grants paid by the government to intercounty players sums it all up. The reason the naysayers said they were against it is because it would "inevitably lead to forcing the GAA into professionalism". Which of course is utter bull. 

And congratulations on the victory of that major battle on pay for play! Great stuff. I really thought the GPA were going to somehow magically force it through without the consent of the GAA 

[Hardy]

Hound, I'm finished discussing this with you since you deliberately lie in bold type by distorting what I say into the meaning you would like it to have. Fine - if it makes you happy, you and the GPA are the only open-minded generous spirited people in the GAA. Feel better now?

Good post Uladh. Just one thing - I don't demand anything from inter-county players,. Neither does anyone else. We have no right to. They are voluntary participants.

[magpie seanie]

Just one thing - I don't demand anything from inter-county players,. Neither does anyone else. We have no right to. They are voluntary participants.

That's why I said that Uladh had a point there "to a degree". There are idiots out there who demand things from county players. They are the barstool generals who go to 2 or 3 games a year and think they know it all because of this. I don't think anyone should listen to them but there are a lot of them and empty vessels make most sound.

I would have expectations as to how my county team would perform and apply themselves but I wouldn't demand anything from a player. We are all volunteers at the end of the day.

Hound - like Hardy I resent your attempts to paint our opposition to the grants as jealousy. Lets just assume you are right and I'm jealous of county players. I suppose I should be against them getting gear, mileage, holidays, melas etc as well if I'm so jealous but of course I'm not against that (in fact I'd be pretty annoyed if players didn't get proper treatment).

I'm against people getting paid money to play gaelic games - its really that simple.

[Uladh]

Throughout the rest of it I find it hard agree with your apportionment of the blame for this elevation to "special" status of county players as you put it. At best its a chicken and egg thing over the drug testing thing but you blame "administration". You blame county boards for spending money on employing the best methods to prepare teams. I find that very strange. The county board hardly all sat round the table and said - you know what, we'll send the lads to La Manga this spring and they'll do the divil and all. "Good" county boards are the ones that can provide what the players and management want/need in pursuit of success yet you blame them for spending the money.

You make a point about "fans" demanding things from county players and you have a point there to a degree. But the people that put the biggest demands on the players are undoubtedly themselves, their team mates and team management. You didn't mention that anywhere.  The players are not slaves. They do it because they enjoy it and the prospect of success makes their sacrifices worthwhile. Any argument that doesn't take cognisance of this is flawed.

certainly it's hard to say that the GAA administrators, by forwarding only county players for International drug testing, haven't required them to hold higher standards than the rest of the membership. by my reckoning that's affording county players "special" (hardy's term) status.

i'm not blaming the county board or anyone in particular for where we're at. rather, i was trying to highlight some of the constituent factors that have all added up to increased expectations. also, individual wishes or demands that you or i might have are lost in the ocean of general expected standards.

absolutely players place the biggest demands on themselves. however, a player expects anD hopes for what he sees the top guys achieve. What that is is determined by accepted best practice and reported minimum targets. The accepted best pracrice is increasing monthly and with it the energies needed to compete. My point is that the GAA as a community definitely expect the best from players and the best is disappearing over the horizon at this stage.

Again, of course i agree that noone forces players to play but to me that is a weak point. most lads who are first of all talented enough and then lucky enough to be picked to play for their county will give it everything. they will push the boat out and follow every program and direction they're given to have the chance to play football against the best in the country some day. i certainly wouldn't expect many fellas to walk away for the want of effort or the will to have a lash at meeting the standards which are recognised as the benchmark

[orangeman]

Cavanagh fears AFL exodus over grants

Tyrone's Sean Cavanagh surges past a helpless Adrian Morrissey of Wexford in the All-Ireland SFC semi-final
21 November 2008


Footballer of the Year and GPA secretary Sean Cavanagh has warned that the GAA's best young players will turn their backs on the sport if the player grants scheme is scrapped.

And the Tyrone ace believes that many of them will be bound for Australian Rules.

"When you talk about the guys going to Australia, to have something small like that will attract Gaelic footballers to stay here and play the sport they should be playing rather than going to take part in a foreign game in Australia," said Cavanagh, who has twice turned down offers from AFL clubs.

"In most counties, the game is played to a professional standard nowadays and it is like a full-time job. Guys are going to be out of pocket and those grants do help. We would argue that we're being treated as almost professionals in most ways."

Cavanagh has also described the anti-doping regulations inter-county players must adhere to as "unrealistic".

Speaking in the wake of Aidan O'Mahony's failed drugs test, he admitted that he did not know whether everyday medicine was safe to take.

"Whenever you think about it, the guidelines that are places on Gaelic footballers are probably unrealistic.

"I know from the past whenever I have had a cold a few days before a game, I would take a Lempsip and you wouldn't know where it is legal," he added.

[magpie seanie]

He's letting himself down badly there.

[Uladh]

Agreed. badly thought out and flippant comments. nothing new for sean.

[RadioGAAGAA]

So the new GPA tactic is this... try to blackmail the GAA with people going to Australia.


I'd rather lose a few than lose many by going pay-for-play (because ultimately, this line of argument leads to just one logical conclusion - match the Australian Rules pay scales or we're off).

[Tyrone Dreamer]

I dont agree with his point that a £1,500 grant will stop players going to Austraillia. However I'm all for the best players in the country getting perks like this especially when its not costing the gaa anything. We're losing an awful lot of our top players to professional sports. That cant be good for our games. I cant speak for other counties but the likes of Peter Canavan in Tyrone has helped generate huge interest in the games which surely helps introduce young players. We cant afford to be losing the best players of each generation.

The gaa cant go professional but there's no reason why the best players cant be rewarded for their efforts. They're the people who ultimately sell our games. There's been a lot of complaining here over the years about the gaa not spending enough money promoting our games. In my opinion there's not better way to promote the gaa than to have the best players available. The likes of Canavan,Tohill,McConville have helped keep the gaa as the top organisation in the country. There's no substitute for class like this. I think if the players were getting funding it would make their lives a lot easier and make them think twice about moving to other sports. The gaa could free up some funding. There's no reason capital expenditure has to consider at the levels in the past - the stadiums are generally complete now and facilities in place. The gaa is generating much more revenue than ever before.

If grants from the government,funds from the gaa and businesses can help keep the best players here then I think it has to be considered. The players would have to be treated equally and there'd be no transfer system etc so I dont think it would effect their commitment to their own county. The money would have to come from central funds and the players would have to be available for club football. It has to be remembered that clubs who have brought the top players through our probably losing more than the counties when players go to professional sports.

[orangeman]

Can anyone post Eamon Sweeney's piece in yesterday's Independent ? It was a good piece which got you thinking - it gives a perspective from both sides.

Thanks if you can post it.

[orangeman]

Drug-free sport is Utopia - Rogge 
Not consistent with the thread but related to what is being discussed. 


Olympic chief Jacques Rogge has told the BBC that hoping for a drug-free Olympic Games is "naive" and that cheating is "embedded in human nature".

Rogge spoke to the BBC's Inside Sport programme as the re-testing of samples from the Beijing Games is set to begin.

"I think one has to be realistic," said Rogge, president of the International Olympic Committee.

"Drug-free sport in general is Utopia. It will be naive to believe that no-one will take drugs."

He added: "There are about 400m people practising sport on this globe, there are not 400m saints on earth.

Drugs are there to treat the patients. The problem is that they are abused by athletes

IOC President Jacques Rogge 
"Cheating is embedded in human nature and doping is to sport what criminality is to society.

"You will always need cops and judges and prisons and jails and rules and regulations."

Rogge revealed that the imminent re-testing of samples from the Beijing Games will target insulin, as well as Cera, an advanced version of endurance-enhancing hormone EPO.

"We are going to re-test all the blood samples from Beijing," said Rogge.

"About 980 blood samples will be tested for erythropoietin [Cera], the new EPO test, but also insulin.

606: DEBATE
Give your reaction to Rogge's view
"So we are starting this re-testing, it will last a couple of weeks, so we'll see what comes out of it."

All the samples currently held will be available for testing by any new techniques that emerge between now and the 2016 Games.

"We are keeping the samples for eight years and we are going to re-test them," said Rogge.

"And ultimately the judgement on the Beijing Games will be given in eight years' time, because each time a new scientific test is coming up we are going to re-test."

And asked if the drug-makers will always be one step ahead of the testers, Rogge admitted: "I'd say as an MD myself that I am very glad about that.

"Drugs are there to treat the patients. The problem is that they are abused by athletes."