"Tourist told city 'doesn't exist' " - I see that Translink have excelled themselves in customer care again according to the BBC. A Canadian tourist asks for a ticket to Derry only to be told that the City doesn't exist!!!!! In this day and age how can you have people employed in such positions if they are going to pull off such petty rubbish? Ask them to sing 'Derry's Walls' and I'm sure there wouldn't be an issue though... Translink have now apologised....
Whatever about the argument over the name (its Derry!! ;) ), a translink employee saying it doesnt exist when they knew exactly where the tourists were looking for is just petty and stupid.
Absolutely pathetic, but not surprising.
Don't think I hate any other company in the world as much as I hate Translink
Don't start me on Translink ...... Integrated travel company? Every time the train breaks down the bus drivers refuse to take your monthly ticket.. and the wee Hitlers in Great Victoria Street station!!! I saw this guy taking great pleasure during mid-term break in charging adult fare to these kids dressed as Goths - they were not a day over 14....
It was pathetic of the emplyee no doubt.
People get a bit ott about the name of the place.
It's Londonderry.
Quote from: ONeill on August 20, 2007, 04:04:49 PM
It's Londonderry.
As a fella from Strabane once told me "Londonderry" is "a big milk house in England".........
Every one of the Employees stuck in that wee bubble in Europa is a w**ker alright!
The amount of times i've asked for tickets for Derry only be told "you mean Londonderry?" comes flying back. Aye whatever ya ballbag!
Don't even get me started on the f**kers on Student tickets... Ye think you were doing them personally out of money!
Great to see at least one Driver on the 212 route has the balls to put up DOIRE on the board at the front! fair play to him!
Quote from: bailestil on August 20, 2007, 05:07:39 PM
Every one of the Employees stuck in that wee bubble in Europa is a w**ker alright!
The amount of times i've asked for tickets for Derry only be told "you mean Londonderry?" comes flying back. Aye whatever ya ballbag!
Don't even get me started on the f**kers on Student tickets... Ye think you were doing them personally out of money!
Great to see at least one Driver on the 212 route has the balls to put up DOIRE on the board at the front! fair play to him!
Legend! Haven't seen that
Quote from: bailestil on August 20, 2007, 05:07:39 PM
Great to see at least one Driver on the 212 route has the balls to put up DOIRE on the board at the front! fair play to him!
I'm sure that is very helpful to the tourists who were the subject of the original Derry/Londonderry confusion... :D
Anyhow, is the 212 the number for the "Maiden City Flyer"? ;)
I've no time for Translink. The 261 to Enniskillen is advertised as an express service but yet stops at every hole in the ditch. Costs nearly a tenner to get home from belfast. What an absolute rip off. Everytime I get that bus i think to myself thats 2.5 hours of my life i'm never getting back :D
Park n Ride ????? I thiough that only operated at nights in Adelaide Street in Belfast?
And not to mention the bastards driving the "Metro" buses who chose to ignore ayone unlucky enough to be carry a GAA bag looking to go up the Dub.
The amount of times bastards drive by with a half-full bus, used to sicken ye! Hateful hoors!
Quote from: inisceithleann on August 20, 2007, 05:17:11 PM
I've no time for Translink. The 261 to Enniskillen is advertised as an express service but yet stops at every hole in the ditch. Costs nearly a tenner to get home from belfast. What an absolute rip off. Everytime I get that bus i think to myself thats 2.5 hours of my life i'm never getting back :D
What really annoys me is that you cannot get a return ticket from anywhere in Fermanagh to Belfast, you have to pay the huge single fare twice, whereas to any other destination in the North return tickets are no problem, bunch of cnuts, is that still the case?
Quote from: ExiledGael on August 20, 2007, 05:22:20 PM
What really annoys me is that you cannot get a return ticket from anywhere in Fermanagh to Belfast, you have to pay the huge single fare twice, whereas to any other destination in the North return tickets are no problem, bunch of cnuts, is that still the case?
I suppose they think no one wooud want to come back?
Quote from: Armagh4SamAgain on August 20, 2007, 05:25:43 PM
Quote from: ExiledGael on August 20, 2007, 05:22:20 PM
What really annoys me is that you cannot get a return ticket from anywhere in Fermanagh to Belfast, you have to pay the huge single fare twice, whereas to any other destination in the North return tickets are no problem, bunch of cnuts, is that still the case?
I suppose they think no one wooud want to come back?
:D :D
Quote from: ExiledGael on August 20, 2007, 05:27:05 PM
Quote from: Armagh4SamAgain on August 20, 2007, 05:25:43 PM
Quote from: ExiledGael on August 20, 2007, 05:22:20 PM
What really annoys me is that you cannot get a return ticket from anywhere in Fermanagh to Belfast, you have to pay the huge single fare twice, whereas to any other destination in the North return tickets are no problem, bunch of cnuts, is that still the case?
I suppose they think no one wooud want to come back?
:D :D
couldnt beat him with a big stick, legend
this shoulda been the translink thread.
p.s. theres no f**king london in armagh
I have never been corrected once at the europa asking for a ticket for derry
I was writing a cheque for the monthly ticket in the railway station and started making it payable to Translink.....the grumpy oul bitch at the counter just growled at me "no such company".
Get your own back on them by joining their customer group - you go to four meetings a year to complain about how shite they are, get fed and a free trip for two, for two nights, to Dublin.
As for the Derry thing - the principle for staff should be if the customer says Derry, you confirm it as Derry, if they say Londondderry, errr, you just reply 'there ye go, now'.
What brings me to the fair is the two security goons that have been brought in at Gt Victoria Street train station to "supervise" the gate. Save money Translink and employ some real staff! One day they will automate those gates and the grumpy gang can all go and work in McDonalds where they belong...
would love to know what disciplinary action was taken.You would think in the 21st century dickheads like this would be moving on.i for one would love to see him made an example off.
The Stroke city plot thickens:
Translink has said it has identified the member of staff who told a tourist "Derry did not exist" when she asked about a bus to the city from Belfast.
Spokesman Billy Gilpin said the incident was currently being investigated by the company.
He said: "We are here to provide a service for the whole community. We don't have a particular stance on what we call, whether it be Londonderry or Derry.
"We interchange the two terms all the time in our publications and station announcements." (That is a lie, just look at their railway timetable and hear their announcements from thon woman at GVS bus station).
John Dallat of the SDLP said the Canadian tourist inquired about transport to the city and was told at the Europa Bus Centre in Belfast that "no buses run to that place".
Dallat said he had been "unhappy with Translink's response".
"I do accept that the problem is perhaps not as bad as it used to be when they used to have someone standing at Platform Two in Belfast screaming at all passengers to the North-West, 'This train goes to Londonderry'," he said.
Must be a wee while since that SDLP boy has had to get a bus or train to Derry.
Walking thru Great Vic St bus station and up on the big scoreboard was 212 - Maiden City Flyer to Doire/Derry.
God, Translink must be really hurt by the recent complaint!
I take it we'll not have to listen to the feckers shouting "Londonderry platform x" in the bus station now. Not being paranoid but they never seem to shout the destination of any other buses when I'm there.
Especially thon woman who seems to relish saying the city's 'full' title.
She probably has never been north of Newtownabbey, however.
Quote from: Donagh on August 24, 2007, 01:50:48 PM
I take it we'll not have to listen to the feckers shouting "Londonderry platform x" in the bus station now. Not being paranoid but they never seem to shout the destination of any other buses when I'm there.
Yes you are.
Is it just me or doe the BBCNI news always refer to Derry as "Londonderry" all the time now. It used to be that they would have included Derry to keep both sides happy but not anymore. Am I going mad or what
Quote from: Hereiam on December 08, 2008, 03:47:51 PM
Is it just me or doe the BBCNI news always refer to Derry as "Londonderry" all the time now. It used to be that they would have included Derry to keep both sides happy but not anymore. Am I going mad or what
Have a mate who was a journalist with them before joining UTV. The policy in both is that Londonderry must be said the first time and then it's up to the person speaking.
Quote from: Hereiam on December 08, 2008, 03:47:51 PM
Is it just me or doe the BBCNI news always refer to Derry as "Londonderry" all the time now. It used to be that they would have included Derry to keep both sides happy but not anymore. Am I going mad or what
Nope , definitely not just you ,just listen out to Angie Phillips doing the weather for further confirmation of your suspicions
I always thought it went Londonderry, The Northwest, The Maiden City and then Derry... if it ever got that far.
Angie comes into my place of summer work quite a bit. Shouldn't post the phrases I use to describe thw way she comes across, might get me in trouble...
General translink rant
261 calling at ballygawley, aug-her, clog-her(always said as though there is a hyphen), fivemiletown, maguiresbridge.................................
and then i lost interest.
I think a petition needs to go to the BBC ;D On a slightly differant note I can't even watch the BBCNI news now as I feel that it doesn't relate to me, does anyone else find this.
Quote from: Hereiam on December 08, 2008, 04:47:55 PM
I think a petition needs to go to the BBC ;D On a slightly differant note I can't even watch the BBCNI news now as I feel that it doesn't relate to me, does anyone else find this.
I'd sooner watch UTV.
when traveling and living down south whenever i told someone i met from the north where i was from they always mimicked the bus route that is announced in the bus station..........((while trying to do a belfast accent) i'd just grin and bare it..... but its wild annoying!
Just after getting barred from editing wikipedia as a result of committing the heinous crime of changing County Londonderry to County Derry on of all pages the Derry Gaa page
Would be about an ongoing battle with a pr'ck called Trad Unionist who has an obsession with Derry GAA?
Looks like it's back to Derry (again) :)
Anger over Lisneal name change letter
Published Date: 18 September 2009
Some parents of Catholic children at Lisneal College in Derry's Waterside say they are "furious" that their kids were asked to sign a letter opposing moves to change the official name of the city from Londonderry to Derry.
Parents of children at the school - which has both Catholics and Protestants - received a letter from school principal David Funston in which he explained that he had been asked to distribute a letter which could be signed by pupils and sent to Derry
Copies of both letters have been passed anonymously to the 'Journal'.
Mr Funston last night defended the move and insisted that he had received "no negative feedback" from parents or pupils about the letter.
However, a parent of a Catholic pupil at Lisneal College said the letter had left Catholic pupils feeling "isolated."
"It's absolutely outrageous that children should be dragged into this debate. You would have thought that schools would adopt a neutral stance on such issues. And, yet, here was my child being very publicly asked to sign up to an issue that is overtly political and, dare I say it, sectarian. I'm furious that my child should have been put in such an unenviable position. They were left to feel very, very isolated.
"Schoolchildren and politics - particularly such a sensitive subject as the name change - simply do not mix. I'm shocked that the school was allowed to do this. Did they get the go-ahead from the Board of Governors? As a result of this, my child is very self-conscious when at school."
Mr Funston rejected claims that distributing the letter among students in the mixed school could create problems for the schools Catholic pupils. He also claimed it is not a sectarian issue, despite the letter containing a reference to "Protestant identity."
"I don't see this as a Catholic/Protestant issue. I attached a covering letter and my covering letter explained that it was entirely voluntary. It is not a school letter. The Board of Governors were aware of it," he said.
Despite this, Mr Funston's covering letter said signed copies of the letter were to be returned to the school office.
He also said he had been asked to distribute the letter by a member of the public.
"A number of bodies would ask us to make parents aware of various things and those bodies would include political parties and come from right across the political divide," he said.
Heard about this on talkback earlier absolute disgrace they interviewed a DUP councillor about it she made a complete cnut of herself.
The letter went out to kids from 10-11 years old and up!!
Will post a link when the podcast goes up later.
Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2009, 01:15:37 PM
Anger over Lisneal name change letter
Published Date: 18 September 2009
Some parents of Catholic children at Lisneal College in Derry's Waterside say they are "furious" that their kids were asked to sign a letter opposing moves to change the official name of the city from Londonderry to Derry.
Parents of children at the school - which has both Catholics and Protestants - received a letter from school principal David Funston in which he explained that he had been asked to distribute a letter which could be signed by pupils and sent to Derry
Copies of both letters have been passed anonymously to the 'Journal'.
Mr Funston last night defended the move and insisted that he had received "no negative feedback" from parents or pupils about the letter.
However, a parent of a Catholic pupil at Lisneal College said the letter had left Catholic pupils feeling "isolated."
"It's absolutely outrageous that children should be dragged into this debate. You would have thought that schools would adopt a neutral stance on such issues. And, yet, here was my child being very publicly asked to sign up to an issue that is overtly political and, dare I say it, sectarian. I'm furious that my child should have been put in such an unenviable position. They were left to feel very, very isolated.
"Schoolchildren and politics - particularly such a sensitive subject as the name change - simply do not mix. I'm shocked that the school was allowed to do this. Did they get the go-ahead from the Board of Governors? As a result of this, my child is very self-conscious when at school."
Mr Funston rejected claims that distributing the letter among students in the mixed school could create problems for the schools Catholic pupils. He also claimed it is not a sectarian issue, despite the letter containing a reference to "Protestant identity."
"I don't see this as a Catholic/Protestant issue. I attached a covering letter and my covering letter explained that it was entirely voluntary. It is not a school letter. The Board of Governors were aware of it," he said.
Despite this, Mr Funston's covering letter said signed copies of the letter were to be returned to the school office.
He also said he had been asked to distribute the letter by a member of the public.
"A number of bodies would ask us to make parents aware of various things and those bodies would include political parties and come from right across the political divide," he said.
My sister's young lad (14) goes to an integrated school and was challenged by his teacher when he said something about Derry.Teacher stopped him and said something along the lines of it's not Derry it's londonDerry! The lad told the teacher that his granny was from Derry and that in their house it was always referred to thus.The teacher went ape and asked him to wait outside the room for the remainder of the lesson.He duly marched down to the head's office and explained the situation and his stance. The head took him back up to the classroom and made the teacher apologise to him in front of his classmates. He was well chuffed and now spends his time bringing up anything to do with Derry, just to wind up the teacher, probably not a great idea on his part but hey- he's 14.
We had a quiz in Geography class every so often when I was at school, the winning team got no homework the next day or something. The teacher asked in which county is Coleraine (can't remember the actual question) and a guy put his hand up and answered Londonderry. His team got docked 5 points.
Quote from: Maiden1 on September 18, 2009, 01:49:40 PM
We had a quiz in Geography class every so often when I was at school, the winning team got no homework the next day or something. The teacher asked in which county is Coleraine (can't remember the actual question) and a guy put his hand up and answered Londonderry. His team got docked 5 points.
But wasn't his answer correct? I think that there was never a County Derry in terms of the modern county structure - since it came into place it has been called Londonderry. I may be completely wrong on that.
On the schools thing - that's a disgrace, and the headmaster and board of governors should be rightly embarrassed.
The headmaster is an idiot.
Why did he ever thing it is acceptable for a school be distributing something like this?
The people for and against this issue in derry have enough ways and means to distribute information without resorting to this.
Quote from: Rois on September 18, 2009, 01:54:00 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on September 18, 2009, 01:49:40 PM
We had a quiz in Geography class every so often when I was at school, the winning team got no homework the next day or something. The teacher asked in which county is Coleraine (can't remember the actual question) and a guy put his hand up and answered Londonderry. His team got docked 5 points.
But wasn't his answer correct? I think that there was never a County Derry in terms of the modern county structure - since it came into place it has been called Londonderry. I may be completely wrong on that.
On the schools thing - that's a disgrace, and the headmaster and board of governors should be rightly embarrassed.
Interestingingly enough (I think), I was looking through the 1911 census and there was no mention of Londonderry on it and this is people filling in there own forms in predominantly protestestant areas of Derry.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Coleraine/Church_Walls/
If you click on the census forms for any of the names (I just chose a street at random) they all put county as Derry. It seems to be a more modern thing that it has started to be refereed to as Londonderry by some people.
Good spot Maiden!
Would people on here feel the need to 'correct' someone who casually referred to Londonderry?
Ok - I'll go with that.
I remember my dad telling me that thing about County Derry never actually existing - since he was an Irish history teacher (in Strabane) and is the current chair of the Federation for Ulster Local Studies, I never doubted him! I will revert back tonight over a glass of wine (interesting discussions in our house).
Well yes I would. And anyway, Derry only has 2 sylablles!
Quote from: Farrandeelin on September 18, 2009, 02:16:54 PM
Well yes I would. And anyway, Derry only has 2 sylablles!
I gave up correcting people when I was living in England. They never meant anything political by it and the energy used in explaining the history wasn't worth it
Quote from: Maiden1 on September 18, 2009, 02:04:07 PM
Interestingingly enough (I think), I was looking through the 1911 census and there was no mention of Londonderry on it and this is people filling in there own forms in predominantly protestestant areas of Derry.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Coleraine/Church_Walls/
If you click on the census forms for any of the names (I just chose a street at random) they all put county as Derry. It seems to be a more modern thing that it has started to be refereed to as Londonderry by some people.
Interesting indeed - and I note some forefathers of mine would be included ont eh list of referring to it as derry.
However the use of derry is often seen as "shorthand" for many, while seeing the "correct" name as Londonderry.
Rois, think the county name changed from coleraine to londonderry at the same time as they changed the name of the city from derry to londonderry
Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2009, 02:16:03 PM
Would people on here feel the need to 'correct' someone who casually referred to Londonderry?
I'd work with a good few people from the Coleraine area and I wouldn't 'correct' them if they talked about Londonderry and none of them seem to bother when I use the term Derry.
No need to go seeking trouble, it'll find you soon enough.
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 03:01:50 PM
Rois, think the city name changed from coleraine to londonderry at the same time as they changed the name of the city from derry to londonderry
eh? I was talking about County Derry. Are you confused or is it me?
me! meant COUNTY coleraine became county Londonderry at the same time as the city changed name. I think you are correct that it never officially went through county derry.
Name should be changed. Chav City.
never heard the county coleraine thing before, but would have said that most counties took their names from main town in that county.
That this practice seemed to be starting from what people were writing in that 1911 census would back up that this was already in progress when the renaming to insert london prefix occurred.
so its either county Derry or county Colmcille , with a new runner county coleraine for future use!
anyway its no problem, it will be county Derry in the not too distant future, as thats what the majority of natives say.
County colmcille has a nice ring to it though !
LB - im surprised youve never heard of it, it has been mentioned on this board several times.
From
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/companies/londoncompanies_full.rtf (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/companies/londoncompanies_full.rtf)
"Terrified that the City of London would dig in its heels and somehow refuse to proceed, the Government agreed to demands, and a new County was created specially for the City to colonise: that County was called the County of Londonderry, and included the old County of Coleraine to which bits of Counties Antrim, Donegal, and Tyrone were joined. It should be noted that at no time, before or since, was there ever an Irish county called 'Derry', and it is historical nonsense to refer to 'County Derry'. The Diocese was always 'Derry', however, but the new, planned, walled city erected by the City of London was re-named 'Londonderry'."
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
LB - im surprised youve never heard of it, it has been mentioned on this board several times.
He doesn't listen if something doesn't suit his blinkered view. The fall back position is that "our day is coming and we're going to do what we want".
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
LB - im surprised youve never heard of it, it has been mentioned on this board several times.
From
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/companies/londoncompanies_full.rtf (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/companies/londoncompanies_full.rtf)
"Terrified that the City of London would dig in its heels and somehow refuse to proceed, the Government agreed to demands, and a new County was created specially for the City to colonise: that County was called the County of Londonderry, and included the old County of Coleraine to which bits of Counties Antrim, Donegal, and Tyrone were joined. It should be noted that at no time, before or since, was there ever an Irish county called 'Derry', and it is historical nonsense to refer to 'County Derry'. The Diocese was always 'Derry', however, but the new, planned, walled city erected by the City of London was re-named 'Londonderry'."
honestly didnt , but have now
think colmcille precedes that though !
Dont know how I never heard of the county coleraine thing!
thanks
There are some strange accounts of history in that document as seen from the eyes of the Company.
This bit is interesting
1720
'Paralysed by the South Sea Bubble catastrophe, the City of London had no resources to spend on its estates in Ulster, so the letting idea seemed the only way out at the time. Unfortunately, the tenants (who paid a 'fine' and an annual rent) went in for massive asset-stripping, with the result that The Irish Society noted virtually the whole of the county had become denuded of woodlands, emigration by Protestants was reaching epidemic proportions (thereby undoing one of the many aims of the Plantation, namely to settle the disaffected parts of Ulster with persons loyal to the Crown), and small farms were being impoverished by the rapacity of the Companies' tenants. Meanwhile, as a contemporary observer noted, 'no Papists stirred' from their holdings. The emigrants (mostly Ulster-Scots) became implacable enemies of British rule, and were one of the most significant factors in the success of the American Revolution.'
Quote from: Roger on September 18, 2009, 05:27:21 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
LB - im surprised youve never heard of it, it has been mentioned on this board several times.
He doesn't listen if something doesn't suit his blinkered view. The fall back position is that "our day is coming and we're going to do what we want".
a little bit silly of you I'd think !
while you are a loyalist, I am a realist !
Quote from: lynchbhoy on September 18, 2009, 05:28:03 PM
think colmcille precedes that though !
For the city - but for the county?
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 05:48:57 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on September 18, 2009, 05:28:03 PM
think colmcille precedes that though !
For the city - but for the county?
no authority on this (as the coleraine thing is new to me, or I just didnt see this on the board before) but it seems that there was no copperfastened name for the county, other than the historic referral to the county as colmcilles county/county of colmcille then as the census was starting to show - 'Derry' being bandied about
coleraine at a guess would come somewhere in between, but theres obv some reading I have to do first.
Coleraine was a slightly smaller county.
Some additional land was added when it became the new fangled co Londonderry.
Have never heard of it as county colmcille before - thoight coleraine was the first since the county system was introduced int he area, but i could be wrong. (A quick look seems to imply the county system here was introduced in the area in 1584/5, and that coleraine was the name at this point)
Quote from: Roger on September 18, 2009, 05:27:21 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
LB - im surprised youve never heard of it, it has been mentioned on this board several times.
He doesn't listen if something doesn't suit his blinkered view. ".
Pot Kettle and Black ;)
Quote from: Maiden1 on September 18, 2009, 02:04:07 PM
Quote from: Rois on September 18, 2009, 01:54:00 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on September 18, 2009, 01:49:40 PM
We had a quiz in Geography class every so often when I was at school, the winning team got no homework the next day or something. The teacher asked in which county is Coleraine (can't remember the actual question) and a guy put his hand up and answered Londonderry. His team got docked 5 points.
But wasn't his answer correct? I think that there was never a County Derry in terms of the modern county structure - since it came into place it has been called Londonderry. I may be completely wrong on that.
On the schools thing - that's a disgrace, and the headmaster and board of governors should be rightly embarrassed.
Interestingingly enough (I think), I was looking through the 1911 census and there was no mention of Londonderry on it and this is people filling in there own forms in predominantly protestestant areas of Derry.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Coleraine/Church_Walls/
If you click on the census forms for any of the names (I just chose a street at random) they all put county as Derry. It seems to be a more modern thing that it has started to be refereed to as Londonderry by some people.
Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2009, 02:07:06 PM
Good spot Maiden!
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 02:58:58 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on September 18, 2009, 02:04:07 PM
Interestingingly enough (I think), I was looking through the 1911 census and there was no mention of Londonderry on it and this is people filling in there own forms in predominantly protestestant areas of Derry.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Coleraine/Church_Walls/
If you click on the census forms for any of the names (I just chose a street at random) they all put county as Derry. It seems to be a more modern thing that it has started to be refereed to as Londonderry by some people.
Interesting indeed - and I note some forefathers of mine would be included ont eh list of referring to it as derry.
However the use of derry is often seen as "shorthand" for many, while seeing the "correct" name as Londonderry.
Aye, the three of you are some craic. You should have commented when the point was first raised.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on August 31, 2009, 09:12:02 PM
A few points.
The number of people who claimed to have the ability to read and write Irish and English. Were they all Shinners?
How the use of the terms Derry and Roman Catholic seem to have had none of the current baggage attached to them.
The elegant script used when forms were being completed as Gaelige.
The peelers didn't complete their full names, using only initials instead. And they were all Catholics from what would soon become the Free State.
My great-grandmother marrying (at 19) a 44 year old who couldn't read or write.
Quote from: Orior on August 31, 2009, 08:07:58 PM
Very few examples of people shacking up together - they dont seem to know the word for "Partner" as a relationship.
I believe the term was "Domestic Servant"
Do try to keep up. Told youse all about the McCartan / Tally linkup eight days before it was announced.
More people should read what I post.
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 06:40:40 PM
Have never heard of it as county colmcille before
neither had I. I think its commonly known that the new county was originally called Co Coleraine, then changed to Londonderry. We, however came from Loughinsholin, which took in south derry and east tyrone. Probably why the south and north of todays Co. Derry can never get on in GAA terms
Quote from: the green man on September 18, 2009, 10:27:17 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 06:40:40 PM
Have never heard of it as county colmcille before
neither had I. I think its commonly known that the new county was originally called Co Coleraine, then changed to Londonderry.
Cant find any reference to either "colmcilles county" or "count of colmcille" anywhere.
Think LB will need to check where he got this from.
Quote from: Roger on September 18, 2009, 05:51:10 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 05:48:57 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on September 18, 2009, 05:28:03 PM
think colmcille precedes that though !
For the city - but for the county?
Neither imo.
In your opinion, in
your opinion FFS! Not like a loyalist to let an opinion get in the way of a llittle historical fact eh?
Doire Colmcille long predates, by some significant centuries, the first footfall of a Planter on this isle. Check out history some time, uncomfortable for you, but enlightening no doubt.
And regarding the county -- it was part of Tír Eoghain before the bloody English carved that up too, opening the gates to multitudes of inbreds :D
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 18, 2009, 11:57:53 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 18, 2009, 05:51:10 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 18, 2009, 05:48:57 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on September 18, 2009, 05:28:03 PM
think colmcille precedes that though !
For the city - but for the county?
Neither imo.
In your opinion, in your opinion FFS! Not like a loyalist to let an opinion get in the way of a llittle historical fact eh?
Doire Colmcille long predates, by some significant centuries, the first footfall of a Planter on this isle. Check out history some time, uncomfortable for you, but enlightening no doubt.
And regarding the county -- it was part of Tír Eoghain before the bloody English carved that up too, opening the gates to multitudes of inbreds :D
Leaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry. Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.
QuoteLeaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry. Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.
Yeah, Right. If Londonderry didn't have anything to do with an existing Derry why didn't they just call it New London then?
Quote from: armaghniac on September 19, 2009, 12:22:43 AM
QuoteLeaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry. Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.
Yeah, Right. If Londonderry didn't have anything to do with an existing Derry why didn't they just call it New London then?
Pretty poor point. In any case Oak Grove is not uncommon in Ireland to be attached to a name.
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:19:50 AM
Leaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry. Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.
From what do you make out what you make out, i.e., which reputable sources?
And apologies for my 'manners' -- perhaps I'm over-sensitised to loyalist versions of non-history.
There never was a Colmcille County, but there most certainly was a Doire Colmcille on the site of the current city of Derry, roughly. And I'm not wrong either when I assert that the whole area of the now County Derry came under the territory of Eoghan Ó Néill, i.e., Tír Eoghain, before the Saxons imposed their divisions of rule.
my take on it, is that the county system was imposed by the english, and that there never was a Co. derry as we know it. in fact the part of derry city on the west of the river was actually in donegal, but had to be included in NI on the behest of the unionists due to historical reasons. Strange given that the north and south of derry, as we know it now, was very much pro united irishmen. A quick run through of those men would include John Mitchel, Watty Graham. Prominent Presbyterians at that that time
I think a lot of you are coming at this name thing from the wrong angle. Did any of you look to check up on where the name London comes from? It is from a Celtic God Lugh or Lughaidh Lamhfhada. Therefore if either Londonderry or Derry is used both are Celtic in origin and the Anglo-Saxons are all merely the subjects of the powerful Celts!! Next time someone insists on Londonderry throw this fact at them and watch 'em squirm! ;D
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 19, 2009, 12:32:03 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:19:50 AM
Leaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry. Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.
From what do you make out what you make out, i.e., which reputable sources?
And apologies for my 'manners' -- perhaps I'm over-sensitised to loyalist versions of non-history.
There never was a Colmcille County, but there most certainly was a Doire Colmcille on the site of the current city of Derry, roughly. And I'm not wrong either when I assert that the whole area of the now County Derry came under the territory of Eoghan Ó Néill, i.e., Tír Eoghain, before the Saxons imposed their divisions of rule.
I'm not disagreeing about the existence of Doire / Doire Colmcille. I'm just saying that the city wasn't 'renamed' it was built from new, named from new and studies of it suggest it was built in a different location even on the other side of the Foyle which wasn't an insignificant distance away in those days from the location of the destroyed town. I agree about there never being a County Colmcille but I'll await Lynchboy's explanation on this strange new line of argument. Personally I don't care what the county is called. Counties are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. As for the city well I'm not fussed on the place and Ziggy's suggestion earlier in the thread would be as appropriate to me as any. However, claiming that it is simply changing the name back to the original by dropping "London" from either city or county is a red herring more likely simply to disguise an underlying sectarian motivation. That's fine by me too, but people should be honest about it. As has been shown in this thread there would have been many unionists happy enough to call the city or county the shortened version simply for ease of speech. This was the same in 1911 and I believe to this date. However, the campaign for renaming the city is sectarian for many people and therefore resisted in kind.
If there is to be a bit of give and take, I'm quite prepared to acknowledge the part within the walls as Londonderry and the rest of the city and county to be officially recognised as Derry.
Quote from: firstsub on September 19, 2009, 12:41:23 AM
my take on it, is that the county system was imposed by the english, and that there never was a Co. derry as we know it. in fact the part of derry city on the west of the river was actually in donegal, but had to be included in NI on the behest of the unionists due to historical reasons. Strange given that the north and south of derry, as we know it now, was very much pro united irishmen. A quick run through of those men would include John Mitchel, Watty Graham. Prominent Presbyterians at that that time
Do you mean the west bank was included in the county or within NI for historical reasons at unionists' behest? The city was always in the county afaik.
Quote from: Eoghan Mag on September 19, 2009, 12:43:24 AM
I think a lot of you are coming at this name thing from the wrong angle. Did any of you look to check up on where the name London comes from? It is from a Celtic God Lugh or Lughaidh Lamhfhada. Therefore if either Londonderry or Derry is used both are Celtic in origin and the Anglo-Saxons are all merely the subjects of the powerful Celts!! Next time someone insists on Londonderry throw this fact at them and watch 'em squirm! ;D
All over the British isles names derive from such origins. Shankill? Belfast? London? Don't think many squirm too much.
Quote from: firstsub on September 19, 2009, 12:52:21 AM
If there is to be a bit of give and take, I'm quite prepared to acknowledge the part within the walls as Londonderry and the rest of the city and county to be officially recognised as Derry.
I don't understand the fixation with counties. Apart from GAA and a Westminister constituency there doesn't appear to be any reason to actually refer too much to the county name. The Gaels do their own thing about that and no one gives a toss either way.
Fair enough Roger, this isn't black and white any more than history itself is riddled with shades of the faintest and most obscure greys, and with Irish history those greys are particularly dappled.
You won't like me for saying this, but I see this Derry/Londonderry saga as a metaphor for the crumpled and crumbling embers of the death of empire. You'll have divergent, possibly diametrically opposed, views on that. Such is what empires are good at: planting divisive issues that will rankle with both the indigenous and the newly arrived (though I believe all on this island to be well and truly indigenous at this stage, would that the political masters could concede same) for centuries and millenia to come. Such is the lifeblood (or death) of their presence where they've no right to be, and you won't agree with that either ;)
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:57:37 AM
Quote from: firstsub on September 19, 2009, 12:52:21 AM
If there is to be a bit of give and take, I'm quite prepared to acknowledge the part within the walls as Londonderry and the rest of the city and county to be officially recognised as Derry.
I don't understand the fixation with counties. Apart from GAA and a Westminister constituency there doesn't appear to be any reason to actually refer too much to the county name. The Gaels do their own thing about that and no one gives a toss either way.
Don't the Orange Order orangise and/or recongise county Borders too?
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 19, 2009, 01:01:32 AM
Fair enough Roger, this isn't black and white any more than history itself is riddled with shades of the faintest and most obscure greys, and with Irish history those greys are particularly dappled.
You won't like me for saying this, but I see this Derry/Londonderry saga as a metaphor for the crumpled and crumbling embers of the death of empire. You'll have divergent, possibly diametrically opposed, views on that. Such is what empires are good at: planting divisive issues that will rankle with both the indigenous and the newly arrived (though I believe all on this island to be well and truly indigenous at this stage, would that the political masters could concede same) for centuries and millenia to come. Such is the lifeblood (or death) of their presence where they've no right to be, and you won't agree with that either ;)
Fair enough but that is not the stated view from those campaigning. It all seems to be about changing the name back to what it was before. Same with "
Reunification" of the island. It just sounds nicer but also inaccurate.
Your argument would also mean that counties should be abolished. Might suit some people better in their quest to play at Croke Park.
Quote from: ziggysego on September 19, 2009, 01:02:22 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:57:37 AM
Quote from: firstsub on September 19, 2009, 12:52:21 AM
If there is to be a bit of give and take, I'm quite prepared to acknowledge the part within the walls as Londonderry and the rest of the city and county to be officially recognised as Derry.
I don't understand the fixation with counties. Apart from GAA and a Westminister constituency there doesn't appear to be any reason to actually refer too much to the county name. The Gaels do their own thing about that and no one gives a toss either way.
Don't the Orange Order orangise and/or recongise county Borders too?
Fair point, I think they do but then again they also seem to have a County Belfast too whilst their mates in the Apprentice Boys have no bother being from Derry.
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 01:13:39 AM
Your argument would also mean that counties should be abolished. Might suit some people better in their quest to play at Croke Park.
Not necessarily, and this is where the dappled and mottled shades of grey come into play.
I think the county boundaries, as they are currently defined, and as bequeathed by Whitehall in her boundless munificence (thanks Britain), do just fine. Admittedly, that's from more of a cultural/sporting perspective than a political one, but what the heck, anything to get one over on those b*stards next door(s) ;)
It ain't the lines that are the problem, but those who have drawn them.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 19, 2009, 01:44:43 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 01:13:39 AM
Your argument would also mean that counties should be abolished. Might suit some people better in their quest to play at Croke Park.
Not necessarily, and this is where the dappled and mottled shades of grey come into play.
I think the county boundaries, as they are currently defined, and as bequeathed by Whitehall in her boundless munificence (thanks Britain), do just fine. Admittedly, that's from more of a cultural/sporting perspective than a political one, but what the heck, anything to get one over on those b*stards next door(s) ;)
It ain't the lines that are the problem, but those who have drawn them.
It isn't the name, it is simply who named it and the relationship with where they are from then?
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:47:00 AM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 19, 2009, 12:32:03 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:19:50 AM
Leaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry. Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.
From what do you make out what you make out, i.e., which reputable sources?
And apologies for my 'manners' -- perhaps I'm over-sensitised to loyalist versions of non-history.
There never was a Colmcille County, but there most certainly was a Doire Colmcille on the site of the current city of Derry, roughly. And I'm not wrong either when I assert that the whole area of the now County Derry came under the territory of Eoghan Ó Néill, i.e., Tír Eoghain, before the Saxons imposed their divisions of rule.
I'm not disagreeing about the existence of Doire / Doire Colmcille. I'm just saying that the city wasn't 'renamed' it was built from new, named from new and studies of it suggest it was built in a different location even on the other side of the Foyle which wasn't an insignificant distance away in those days from the location of the destroyed town. I agree about there never being a County Colmcille but I'll await Lynchboy's explanation on this strange new line of argument. Personally I don't care what the county is called. Counties are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. As for the city well I'm not fussed on the place and Ziggy's suggestion earlier in the thread would be as appropriate to me as any. However, claiming that it is simply changing the name back to the original by dropping "London" from either city or county is a red herring more likely simply to disguise an underlying sectarian motivation. That's fine by me too, but people should be honest about it. As has been shown in this thread there would have been many unionists happy enough to call the city or county the shortened version simply for ease of speech. This was the same in 1911 and I believe to this date. However, the campaign for renaming the city is sectarian for many people and therefore resisted in kind.
woger, in your haste to 'prove the fenian wrong' you have overshot the runway again.
the current county boundary lines did not exist back in time when the hinterland of colcille
existed.
It predated most others. The area from what I recall from history classes stretched from and
including that is now in north county Donegal and up as far as the giants causeway.
I think this was in existence prior to the reign of Eoghan.
Lands owned then were attributed to their owners - hence Tir Eoghan - Tyrone and
Tir Chonaill (which is the old Irish name for Donegal, before it was renamed Dun na Ngall
- or land/fort of the foreigners). Tir is Irish for 'Land'.
So this land region known as Colmcilles country, was bigger than the current county Derry and took in some of what
is now Antrim, Donegal and Tyrone.
Both Tir Eoghan and Tir Chonaill took their claim on adjacent land.
The way land was divied up or owned predates your 'counties' and therefore your understanding
of this.So I can appreciate why you jumped to your conclusion. I never said there was a 'county colmcille'
in the same sense that you know counties.
I did say that there 'could' be a name change back into county colmcille and Colmcille city.
(btw this nonsense that londonderry isnt the same as the old Colmcille/Derry city is revisionist rubbish and more
hans christian anderson stuff from unionist/loyalists to try and again rewrite history to
make more excuses for themselves - I cringe for you all when yourself and one or twoothers on here have tried to
peddle that lie and line).
The county coleraine seems to be a much smaller land region. So doesnt actually properly
map onto a 'county Derry'.
I cannot see either community voting for my preference of a 'county Colmcille' so the
result is undoubtedly going to be Derry city and county Derry.
as for your scorn on reunification - I would have thought the island of Ireland was ran by its
localised chiefs and kinds etc as the one until cromwell etc.
again thie might not be how you understand modern day republics of monachist states, but
like other countries such as France and Germany this was the norm !
you are making yourself look sillier by the post with this bitter stuff.
Oh but you dont care really....not true judging by your many posts and vitrol on the subjects !
:D
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:57:37 AM
I don't understand the fixation with counties. Apart from GAA and a Westminister constituency there doesn't appear to be any reason to actually refer too much to the county name. The Gaels do their own thing about that and no one gives a toss either way.
The fixation with the counties is almost entirely down to the GAA. I must confess to liking the whole tribalism associated with the counties. Mrs d admits to being envious of that granite sense of place that many Irish people associate with the counties.
Quote from: deiseach on September 19, 2009, 11:43:26 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:57:37 AM
I don't understand the fixation with counties. Apart from GAA and a Westminister constituency there doesn't appear to be any reason to actually refer too much to the county name. The Gaels do their own thing about that and no one gives a toss either way.
The fixation with the counties is almost entirely down to the GAA. I must confess to liking the whole tribalism associated with the counties. Mrs d admits to being envious of that granite sense of place that many Irish people associate with the counties.
a lot of people including and like roger have the same feeling - its not to a county though its to the 6 counties only they call this cut off provincial representation 'ulster' (or al-staarr)
there wouldnt be a whole lot to cheer about usually if you are from antrim, down, fermanagh, Derry and becomming more frequent now - armagh and tyrone!
Lynchboy, would you ever grow up and stop acting the magott? You are not even trolling anymore but simply spouting nonsense that is irrelevant to the posts you are responding to and adding insults to boot. Pathetic.
County Londonderry was never named County Colmcille. I have never stated there was no place called Colmcille however I stated that there was no county Colmcille or county Derry so to rename County Londonderry as Derry or Colmcille is not putting the name back to the county name before the bad Brits started their menacing (as some seem to think). If the county was to be renamed back to its original then Coleraine would be more accurate.
Please try to keep up.
QuoteI think this was in existence prior to the reign of Eoghan.
What excisted - the area of comcille?
Eoghan was around a hundred years before colmcille as far as im aware.
QuoteSo this land region known as Colmcilles country, was bigger than the current county Derry and took in some of what
is now Antrim, Donegal and Tyrone.
Any references for this - i can find nothing concerning colmcilles country.
Quote from: nifan on September 19, 2009, 12:11:11 PM
QuoteSo this land region known as Colmcilles country, was bigger than the current county Derry and took in some of what
is now Antrim, Donegal and Tyrone.
Any references for this - i can find nothing concerning colmcilles country.
only from what was taught to us by the teacher, they were taking this out of a book - so its out there somewhere.
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:00:55 PM
Lynchboy, would you ever grow up and stop acting the magott? You are not even trolling anymore but simply spouting nonsense that is irrelevant to the posts you are responding to and adding insults to boot. Pathetic.
County Londonderry was never named County Colmcille. I have never stated there was no place called Colmcille however I stated that there was no county Colmcille or county Derry so to rename County Londonderry as Derry or Colmcille is not putting the name back to the county name before the bad Brits started their menacing (as some seem to think). If the county was to be renamed back to its original then Coleraine would be more accurate.
Please try to keep up.
you obv just cannot read - as most likely you dont like reality!
typical unionist/loyalist response though ! Dont like it so dont accept/acknowledge or refuse to understand it !
colmcilles country ....thats country not county you eejit !
colmcille predates coleraine
but as I said the county will be named Derry (like Antrim was named after its main town, similar to Donegal, Monaghan, Dublin, Limerick, Armagh, Galway, Roscommon, Kilkenny, wexford, Cork....etc etc etc - catch my drift!)
so what if the planters go in there first. We all know what the county name should have been, and what it will be in the future.
I'd have thought loyalist/unionists would prefer to go with county colmcille as middleground.
Obv not.
Given the wealth of reference on the internet id expect some reference out there but i find nothing.
Never heard of it growing up in the city.
Also, i updated my previous post as well - but in case you missed it, it seems you imply that colmcilles country precedes the reign of eoghan, who was around 100 years pre-comcille.
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 01:52:07 AM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 19, 2009, 01:44:43 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 01:13:39 AM
Your argument would also mean that counties should be abolished. Might suit some people better in their quest to play at Croke Park.
Not necessarily, and this is where the dappled and mottled shades of grey come into play.
I think the county boundaries, as they are currently defined, and as bequeathed by Whitehall in her boundless munificence (thanks Britain), do just fine. Admittedly, that's from more of a cultural/sporting perspective than a political one, but what the heck, anything to get one over on those b*stards next door(s) ;)
It ain't the lines that are the problem, but those who have drawn them.
It isn't the name, it is simply who named it and the relationship with where they are from then?
Nail on head. This has nothing to do with restoring the 'right' name or 'preserving' the proper order of things. This is simply about nationalists trying to assert their ownership of the area, while unionists are desperately trying to preserve what they see as an important part of their identity. As usual, it has degenerated into a zero sum game with only one possible winner. And as often happens with zero sum games, even the winner runs the risk of winning the battle but losing the war. What happens if the nationalist argument wins the day and Derry becomes the official title of the place? Not a great deal, except that unionists looking on are confirmed in their opinion that a united Ireland dominated by nationalists would mean the end of all things British / protestant / unionist. Is that what we want? Absolutely not, given that we require the consent of these same unionists before a united Ireland becomes a reality. Would it not therefore be a smarter move to support the retention of Londonderry as the official title? Would this not be an indication to unionists that their future is safe in our hands?
What I don't understand is that Unionist say there has to be a vote for a United Ireland as the majority would not vote that way and it cannot be imposed on them. However the Nationalist majority of Derry are not afforded the same right in the naming of their city.
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 01:52:07 AM
It isn't the name, it is simply who named it and the relationship with where they are from then?
No, it's more what it represents than who they are and whence they came.
As Ziggy says, why can't the majority of the City decide, and likewise the county? Either it's about democracy or it's not.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on September 19, 2009, 01:03:13 PM
Absolutely not, given that we require the consent of these same unionists before a united Ireland becomes a reality. Would it not therefore be a smarter move to support the retention of Londonderry as the official title? Would this not be an indication to unionists that their future is safe in our hands?
This makes about as much sense as telling Quebec nationalists that the way to encourage more Anglophones to support independence is not to insist on all that French business. I'd be very surprised if Unionists, who by definition wish NI to remain part of the Union, were to be swayed from such a fundamental position by something as trivial as this.
Quote from: ziggysego on September 19, 2009, 01:34:53 PM
What I don't understand is that Unionist say there has to be a vote for a United Ireland as the majority would not vote that way and it cannot be imposed on them. However the Nationalist majority of Derry are not afforded the same right in the naming of their city.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 19, 2009, 02:16:27 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 01:52:07 AM
It isn't the name, it is simply who named it and the relationship with where they are from then?
No, it's more what it represents than who they are and whence they came.
As Ziggy says, why can't the majority of the City decide, and likewise the county? Either it's about democracy or it's not.
Because majority rule 'democracy' has worked so well in this part of the world up to now.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on September 19, 2009, 01:03:13 PM
given that we require the consent of these same unionists before a united Ireland becomes a reality.
We need only 10 - 15% of them to vote through a re unification.
"Londonderry" was a name imposed on the city by a shower of violent people who murdered etc and stole land from the natives.
Surely in these peaceful times we have to be opposed to any remaining manifestations to that sort of murderous past.
Quote from: Ulster Exile on September 19, 2009, 02:49:47 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on September 19, 2009, 01:34:53 PM
What I don't understand is that Unionist say there has to be a vote for a United Ireland as the majority would not vote that way and it cannot be imposed on them. However the Nationalist majority of Derry are not afforded the same right in the naming of their city.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 19, 2009, 02:16:27 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 01:52:07 AM
It isn't the name, it is simply who named it and the relationship with where they are from then?
No, it's more what it represents than who they are and whence they came.
As Ziggy says, why can't the majority of the City decide, and likewise the county? Either it's about democracy or it's not.
Because majority rule 'democracy' has worked so well in this part of the world up to now.
Democracy in 1918 didn't suit, so as usual the lines were redrawn to secure a 'positive' democracy for empire. Quite.
I had a mate went to bus station many years ago and asked for a ticet to Derry. The man in the booth asked, "is that Edenderry, Ballinderry or......' and my friend said..."london-derry." brilliantly set up... :P
Quote from: ziggysego on September 19, 2009, 01:34:53 PM
What I don't understand is that Unionist say there has to be a vote for a United Ireland as the majority would not vote that way and it cannot be imposed on them.
...........a principle also approved by the majority of the Nationalist population. It's not just the Unionists that "say" this.
This proposed renaming of towns/cities mularky could really catch on. It's not as if their are enough divisive issues in Northern Ireland. ::)
Quote from: Olaf on September 19, 2009, 09:17:13 PM
This proposed renaming of towns/cities mularky could really catch on. It's not as if their are enough divisive issues in Northern Ireland. ::)
What are you saying? That the issue shouldn't be discussed? The habitual defence of those who want to maintain the status quo.
Quote from: deiseach on September 19, 2009, 10:16:42 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 19, 2009, 09:17:13 PM
This proposed renaming of towns/cities mularky could really catch on. It's not as if their are enough divisive issues in Northern Ireland. ::)
What are you saying? That the issue shouldn't be discussed? The habitual defence of those who want to maintain the status quo.
People call it Derry. People call it Londonderry . Don't know what I last referred to it as. The status quo is not particularly fixed and is fairly fluid.
Quote from: Olaf on September 19, 2009, 11:12:53 PM
People call it Derry. People call it Londonderry . Don't know what I last referred to it as. The status quo is not particularly fixed and is fairly fluid.
Well then. You won't mind if the citizenry choose a particular official name, will you?
Quote from: Olaf on September 19, 2009, 09:17:13 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on September 19, 2009, 01:34:53 PM
What I don't understand is that Unionist say there has to be a vote for a United Ireland as the majority would not vote that way and it cannot be imposed on them.
...........a principle also approved by the majority of the Nationalist population. It's not just the Unionists that "say" this.
This proposed renaming of towns/cities mularky could really catch on. It's not as if their are enough divisive issues in Northern Ireland. ::)
Never claimed it wasn't, claimed people that for a group of people banging on about democracy, it's being ignored for this issue. People like Gregory Campbell before you ask ;)
Quote from: deiseach on September 19, 2009, 11:21:52 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 19, 2009, 11:12:53 PM
People call it Derry. People call it Londonderry . Don't know what I last referred to it as. The status quo is not particularly fixed and is fairly fluid.
Well then. You won't mind if the citizenry choose a particular official name, will you?
Choose to change an official name you mean.
You then have to ask why they would choose to do so.
Quote from: Olaf on September 20, 2009, 12:10:49 AM
Choose to change an official name you mean.
You then have to ask why they would choose to do so.
I do mean. They wish to change the status quo to reflect the reality on the ground. Again, we have this underlying notion that changing the status quo is extremist while wanting to maintain the status quo is moderate.
Quote from: deiseach on September 20, 2009, 12:28:55 AM
Quote from: Olaf on September 20, 2009, 12:10:49 AM
Choose to change an official name you mean.
You then have to ask why they would choose to do so.
I do mean. They wish to change the status quo to reflect the reality on the ground. Again, we have this underlying notion that changing the status quo is extremist while wanting to maintain the status quo is moderate.
...Whatever you want
Whatever you like
Whatever you say
You pay your money
You take your choice
Whatever you need
Whatever you use
Whatever you win
Whatever you loose
Youre showing off
Youre showing out
You look for trouble
Turn around, give me a shout
I take it all
You squeeze me dry
And now today
You couldnt even say goodbye
I could take you home
On the midnight train again
I could make an offer you cant refuse.... 8)
12 gold bars...
Ugh. The MIL is a huge fan of the Quo. I think I'm gonna puke
Quote from: Rossfan on September 19, 2009, 03:01:18 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on September 19, 2009, 01:03:13 PM
given that we require the consent of these same unionists before a united Ireland becomes a reality.
We need only 10 - 15% of them to vote through a re unification.
"Londonderry" was a name imposed on the city by a shower of violent people who murdered etc and stole land from the natives.
Surely in these peaceful times we have to be opposed to any remaining manifestations to that sort of murderous past.
Nearly 100% sure about this, but will let Flann decide (or anyone else). I vaguely remember that a wee bit back (1600´s or so), the city of Doire was sold to a financial concern known as "the city of london", I think this was done in order to finance James the 1st. As the "city of london" had now purchased the city of Doire, they called it London
sDerry. Please note possessive "S". Londonsderry works, and is basic finacne not politics, I think, but hey I'm not sober Right NOW.
Looks like Mr Funston has a lot to answer for... :-\
Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2009, 01:15:37 PM
Anger over Lisneal name change letter
Published Date: 18 September 2009
Some parents of Catholic children at Lisneal College in Derry's Waterside say they are "furious" that their kids were asked to sign a letter opposing moves to change the official name of the city from Londonderry to Derry.
Parents of children at the school - which has both Catholics and Protestants - received a letter from school principal David Funston in which he explained that he had been asked to distribute a letter which could be signed by pupils and sent to Derry
Copies of both letters have been passed anonymously to the 'Journal'.
Mr Funston last night defended the move and insisted that he had received "no negative feedback" from parents or pupils about the letter.
However, a parent of a Catholic pupil at Lisneal College said the letter had left Catholic pupils feeling "isolated."
"It's absolutely outrageous that children should be dragged into this debate. You would have thought that schools would adopt a neutral stance on such issues. And, yet, here was my child being very publicly asked to sign up to an issue that is overtly political and, dare I say it, sectarian. I'm furious that my child should have been put in such an unenviable position. They were left to feel very, very isolated.
"Schoolchildren and politics - particularly such a sensitive subject as the name change - simply do not mix. I'm shocked that the school was allowed to do this. Did they get the go-ahead from the Board of Governors? As a result of this, my child is very self-conscious when at school."
Mr Funston rejected claims that distributing the letter among students in the mixed school could create problems for the schools Catholic pupils. He also claimed it is not a sectarian issue, despite the letter containing a reference to "Protestant identity."
"I don't see this as a Catholic/Protestant issue. I attached a covering letter and my covering letter explained that it was entirely voluntary. It is not a school letter. The Board of Governors were aware of it," he said.
Despite this, Mr Funston's covering letter said signed copies of the letter were to be returned to the school office.
He also said he had been asked to distribute the letter by a member of the public.
"A number of bodies would ask us to make parents aware of various things and those bodies would include political parties and come from right across the political divide," he said.
Pupils punished for harassmentPupils at a state secondary school have been disciplined over the alleged harassment of visiting Catholic girls.
It happened when girls from St Cecilia's College were attending Lisneal College as part of a cross-community education programme.
In a joint statement the schools said they would not allow "small pockets of misguided young people" to disrupt the programme.
Fifteen pupils from St Cecilia's attend classes at Lisneal.
In the statement the colleges also promised to try to reduce tensions and fears following recent incidents.
"Our first priority is always the safety and protection of our young people and we can assure all students and their parents that this is being monitored on a daily basis," the statement continued.
Niall McAteer, a governor at St Cecilia's College, said there could be elements of sectarianism involved.
"You face that problem you don't ignore it and you try to tackle it.
"There is no point in blanket condemnation but we need to face this head on."
Funston has a case to answer for the letter Donagh, but its a bit of a stretch implying that this letter is the cause of this.
There would certainly have been sectarianism about school kids in derry before this letter. Lisneal (which I have to say i was surprised had catholic students in the first place) has students who would be at this craic from long before that.
Quote from: nifan on September 22, 2009, 10:40:28 AM
Funston has a case to answer for the letter Donagh, but its a bit of a stretch implying that this letter is the cause of this.
There would certainly have been sectarianism about school kids in derry before this letter. Lisneal (which I have to say i was surprised had catholic students in the first place) has students who would be at this craic from long before that.
No, no, I'm not implying the letter has caused this but that something is seriously wrong in that school under his watch. He has obviously engendered an environment in the school where it is deemed acceptable to take partisan political positions (the letter) and now he has shown that his pupils aren't capable of even showing basic courtesies to visitors.
Looks like the BBC have yet another name for the city
"Pupils at a state secondary school in Lonmdonderry have been disciplined over the alleged harassment of visiting Catholic girls."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/8268325.stm
Quote from: Donagh on September 22, 2009, 10:59:08 AM
and now he has shown that his pupils aren't capable of even showing basic courtesies to visitors.
its hardly surprising, it has been a problem in most high schools in derry, including lisneal and its forerunners Faughan Valley and Clondermott for a long time.
Looks like kids are still being (indirectly) indoctrinated to hate catholics.
Yes, unfortunately some are.
QuoteNew twist in Maiden City name change row
By Lisa Smyth
Thursday, 24 September 2009
The Equality Commission has recommended that Derry City Council halt plans to change the name of the Maiden City from Londonderry to Derry.
The long running debate over the name of the city took another twist yesterday when the Equality Commission published the findings of its report into an equality impact assessment on the proposals carried out by Derry City Council.
The Equality Commission said it recognises that the argument over the name is "deeply resonant of the history of Northern Ireland and touches on some of the fundamental issues of being associated with one of Northern Ireland's two main traditions".
The organisation has said it believes there are a wider range of options open to the city council in terms of the way in which it would take its decision than those which were formally addressed within the equality impact assessment.
The report said: "There is further confusion added by the fact that the council's stated objectives and the aims of the policy are different in a significant way. Even within the policy aims there is a real conflict to the extent that it is virtually impossible to reconcile the differences between them.
"The stated objectives of the council, which appear to be the yardstick against which the council measures any approach to its proposal, pose an even more fundamental problem as they make no provision for taking into account the views of those who are not part of the majority."
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/new-twist-in-maiden-city-name-change-row-14506143.html
Interesting to read the full document too - it's not too long:
http://www.equalityni.org/archive/ECNI%20DDC%20EQIA.pdf
Makes interesting references to other cities where names are disputed. And the idea of alternatives like having 2 official names (i.e. Derry and Londonderry) - because at the end of the day, people are going to call it whatever they want.
Other references were made to LondonDerry (i.e. capital D), although I think that's a bit pointless.
Mention also of DoireLondonDerry, although that's a bit of a mouthful and it would be hard to see anyone using that one.
Having read the report though, it makes you question whether the name should be changed, even if Ireland is united. Should we simply brush away massive parts of our country's history to try and erase the bad bits?
I'll always call it Derry, others will always call it Londonderry, but if
Derry was officially recognised along with
Londonderry (i.e. the 2 name option), that's probably a reasonable enough outcome.
Given the earlier point about London being named after the Celtic god Lugh could you call it Doire na Lu or something like that.
Having dual names is well and good, but maps, roadsigns etc should reflect the preference of the majority in the city.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 24, 2009, 09:11:04 PM
Having dual names is well and good, but maps, roadsigns etc should reflect the preference of the majority in the city.
Surely they could reflect both? In the Republic, road signs manage to include both Irish and English versions of placenames.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 24, 2009, 09:11:04 PM
Having dual names is well and good, but maps, roadsigns etc should reflect the preference of the majority in the city.
It's not about majorities anymore. Nationalists have been succesful in ensuring that ;)
Quote from: longrunsthefox on September 19, 2009, 08:44:26 PM
I had a mate went to bus station many years ago and asked for a ticet to Derry. The man in the booth asked, "is that Edenderry, Ballinderry or......' and my friend said..."london-derry." brilliantly set up... :P
I don't get it.
QuoteIt's not about majorities anymore. Nationalists have been succesful in ensuring that
The principle of the GFA is that the status of NI is determined by the majority living there, not by people living in Ireland generally.
The status of Derry should be decided by the majority living there, not by people living in Antrim.
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 24, 2009, 07:32:53 PM
"The stated objectives of the council, which appear to be the yardstick against which the council measures any approach to its proposal, pose an even more fundamental problem as they make no provision for taking into account the views of those who are not part of the majority."
1917 all over again. Here we go...those not part of the majority get to veto the wishes of the majority.
It is also time that the majority be recognised in the removal of the St.Patrick/Fitzgerald saltire from the British flag, and the national symbol of the country is pinned somewhat ingloriously to the British coat of arms; that too should be changed.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 25, 2009, 11:24:09 AM
QuoteIt's not about majorities anymore. Nationalists have been succesful in ensuring that
The principle of the GFA is that the status of NI is determined by the majority living there, not by people living in Ireland generally.
I don't argue with the logic or merits of that.
QuoteThe status of Derry should be decided by the majority living there, not by people living in Antrim.
Nationalists have championed the 'Equality Agenda' which means Equality Impact of changes of policy need to be assessed in order to safeguard sectarian policies. An adversely effected minority means that the majority don't get what they want in such circumstances and this is the case with the sectarian motivated proposed change to Londonderry's name.
Rather, the problem is with the perception of sectarian motivation.
Quote from: Main Street on September 25, 2009, 12:47:14 PM
Rather, the problem is with the perception of sectarian motivation.
But honestly, what is the motivation, if not sectarian? It's all about identity surely - how can that not be sectarian? I'm not saying that such a motivation is necessarily a bad thing. I can fully understand why many people - especially those who live there - want the name changed, but let's call a spade a spade.
Quote from: Main Street on September 25, 2009, 12:47:14 PM
Rather, the problem is with the perception of sectarian motivation.
How can it not be?
Quote from: Aerlik on September 25, 2009, 11:51:48 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 24, 2009, 07:32:53 PM
“The stated objectives of the council, which appear to be the yardstick against which the council measures any approach to its proposal, pose an even more fundamental problem as they make no provision for taking into account the views of those who are not part of the majority.”
It is also time that the majority be recognised in the removal of the St.Patrick/Fitzgerald saltire from the British flag,
Does that logic then extend to removing the orange bit from the tri-colour ? Whilst, as far as I am aware there are about 1 million Irish men and women on this island who identify with and feel represented by the St Patrick Saltire on the Union flag, I think that you would be hard pushed to find one orangeman and/or Protestant on this island who would identify with or feels represented by the orange/gold bit on the tri-colour.
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 25, 2009, 06:32:11 PM
But honestly, what is the motivation, if not sectarian? It's all about identity surely - how can that not be sectarian? I'm not saying that such a motivation is necessarily a bad thing. I can fully understand why many people - especially those who live there - want the name changed, but let's call a spade a spade.
Are you equating the Irish identify of northern nationalists with their religion? How very unionist of you.
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 25, 2009, 11:24:09 AM
QuoteIt's not about majorities anymore. Nationalists have been succesful in ensuring that
The principle of the GFA is that the status of NI is determined by the majority living there, not by people living in Ireland generally.
I don't argue with the logic or merits of that.
QuoteThe status of Derry should be decided by the majority living there, not by people living in Antrim.
Nationalists have championed the 'Equality Agenda' which means Equality Impact of changes of policy need to be assessed in order to safeguard sectarian policies. An adversely effected minority means that the majority don't get what they want in such circumstances and this is the case with the sectarian motivated proposed change to Londonderry's name.
Safeguard
against sectarian policies, you mean. At least, I hope you mean!
Quote from: Olaf on September 25, 2009, 06:36:40 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 25, 2009, 12:47:14 PM
Rather, the problem is with the perception of sectarian motivation.
How can it not be?
So when the Nationalist community are in the majority and ask for change to reflect this... we're sectarian? Interesting....
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2009, 06:43:42 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 25, 2009, 06:32:11 PM
But honestly, what is the motivation, if not sectarian? It's all about identity surely - how can that not be sectarian? I'm not saying that such a motivation is necessarily a bad thing. I can fully understand why many people - especially those who live there - want the name changed, but let's call a spade a spade.
Are you equating the Irish identify of northern nationalists with their religion? How very unionist of you.
Not at all. You're obviously mistaking the term 'sectarian' as relating exclusively to religion. I wasn't.
But anyway, if it isn't an issue of asserting identity, what is it?
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 25, 2009, 08:04:26 PM
Not at all. You're obviously mistaking the term 'sectarian' as relating exclusively to religion. I wasn't.
But anyway, if it isn't an issue of asserting identity, what is it?
Am I? What else is there in my identity which you associate with belonging to a 'sect'?
For me the name change is simply a matter of easing the memory of an unpleasant, oppressive and colonial past. Bit like Stalingrad, Leningrad, Queenstown or Kingstown.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on September 25, 2009, 06:44:07 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 25, 2009, 11:24:09 AM
QuoteIt's not about majorities anymore. Nationalists have been succesful in ensuring that
The principle of the GFA is that the status of NI is determined by the majority living there, not by people living in Ireland generally.
I don't argue with the logic or merits of that.
QuoteThe status of Derry should be decided by the majority living there, not by people living in Antrim.
Nationalists have championed the 'Equality Agenda' which means Equality Impact of changes of policy need to be assessed in order to safeguard sectarian policies. An adversely effected minority means that the majority don't get what they want in such circumstances and this is the case with the sectarian motivated proposed change to Londonderry's name.
Safeguard against sectarian policies, you mean. At least, I hope you mean!
Yes. Sorry about that.
Quote from: ziggysego on September 25, 2009, 07:53:00 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 25, 2009, 06:36:40 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 25, 2009, 12:47:14 PM
Rather, the problem is with the perception of sectarian motivation.
How can it not be?
So when the Nationalist community are in the majority and ask for change to reflect this... we're sectarian? Interesting....
What's good for the goose....
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2009, 08:18:07 PM
For me the name change is simply a matter of easing the memory of an unpleasant, oppressive and colonial past. Bit like Stalingrad, Leningrad, Queenstown or Kingstown.
Do you live there? This is highly Political and nothing to do with changing a name back or ease of speaking or however it is dressed up for disguising partisan and narrow minded parochial and anti-British sentiment. As I am constantly reminded on this board, by you included, those days of sectarianism and showing who is boss are gone and anyone who thinks like that is a dinasaur and neanderthal. You fall into your own category of contempt.
Why not just put it to a vote now Roger then. If more people who actually live there we'll call it Derry if not then I'll even call it LondonDerry....Same old Unionist rhetoric the same as happened with the maze stadium..If the NI team/ Linfield don't like we'll stop it all happening .Don't like change...don't give a inch...Sick listening to it....there has to be give and take on both sides!
Its not all one way this peace process lads.
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on September 25, 2009, 10:30:52 PM
Why not just put it to a vote now Roger then. If more people who actually live there we'll call it Derry if not then I'll even call it LondonDerry....Same old Unionist rhetoric the same as happened with the maze stadium..If the NI team/ Linfield don't like we'll stop it all happening .Don't like change...don't give a inch...Sick listening to it....there has to be give and take on both sides!
Its not all one way this peace process lads.
It was put to the vote in 1998. The process is clear. You just can't cry 'equality' or 'parity of esteem' when it doesn't suit and then go into an anti-unionist (plus out of nowhere Linfield and Maze) outburst when it does. It's not all one way this process. At least be consistent. Suck it up.
Straight question for you Roger (and none of the 'hypothetical' crap please): should a plebiscite in the not too distant future in the six counties return a majority for a reunited Ireland, would you accept it peaceably and without recourse?
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 25, 2009, 11:14:38 PM
Straight question for you Roger (and none of the 'hypothetical' crap please): should a plebiscite in the not too distant future in the six counties return a majority for a reunited Ireland, would you accept it peaceably and without recourse?
Yes.
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:19:13 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 25, 2009, 11:14:38 PM
Straight question for you Roger (and none of the 'hypothetical' crap please): should a plebiscite in the not too distant future in the six counties return a majority for a reunited Ireland, would you accept it peaceably and without recourse?
Yes.
Fair enough, thanks.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 25, 2009, 11:21:23 PM
Fair enough, thanks.
No worries.
Since there has been no unfavourable plebiscite that you talk about, do you accept that Northern Ireland exists, is not part of the Republic of Ireland, is an integral part of the UK and has the right to determine its own constitutional future?
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:25:23 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 25, 2009, 11:21:23 PM
Fair enough, thanks.
No worries.
Since there has been no unfavourable plebiscite that you talk about, do you accept that Northern Ireland exists, is not part of the Republic of Ireland, is an integral part of the UK and has the right to determine its own constitutional future?
Yes.
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:09:41 PM
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on September 25, 2009, 10:30:52 PM
Why not just put it to a vote now Roger then. If more people who actually live there we'll call it Derry if not then I'll even call it LondonDerry....Same old Unionist rhetoric the same as happened with the maze stadium..If the NI team/ Linfield don't like we'll stop it all happening .Don't like change...don't give a inch...Sick listening to it....there has to be give and take on both sides!
Its not all one way this peace process lads.
It was put to the vote in 1998. The process is clear. You just can't cry 'equality' or 'parity of esteem' when it doesn't suit and then go into an anti-unionist (plus out of nowhere Linfield and Maze) outburst when it does. It's not all one way this process. At least be consistent. Suck it up.
Exactly Roger its not all a one way process...it works both ways...Now just a example..I watched a debate in stormont the other night which happened to go on for about 8 hrs...But the whole jist of the whole debate centered around the notion that a nationalist can't be the new justice minister! Why because if they do then it wont have cross community support. So sinn Fein are going to allow this but the SDLP are up in arms. ( because sinn fein recognise that if they went for justice minister it would be up roar, so stood down)
Now do you think if the same situation was put to any unionist parties would they do the same?
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 10:16:53 PM
Do you live there? This is highly Political and nothing to do with changing a name back or ease of speaking or however it is dressed up for disguising partisan and narrow minded parochial and anti-British sentiment. As I am constantly reminded on this board, by you included, those days of sectarianism and showing who is boss are gone and anyone who thinks like that is a dinasaur and neanderthal. You fall into your own category of contempt.
What does it matter where I live? It's a town in my country just like Cobh, Dún Laoghaire or Craigavon for that matter and as a republican and anti-colonialist, I'm naturally going to reassert my country's sovereignty by ridding it of reminders of an unpleasant past.
But aside from that, the problem here is the unionist refusal to accept the reality of that past and accept that if you want to get on with your neighbours you should show them a little respect. Wheeling out the name of that town at every opportunity is as insulting to your neighbours as painting "Dirty Fenian cnuts, know your place!" across their back fence. Sometimes the respectful thing to do if your neighbour infringes a little on your space, is to say nothing and keep your domineering tendencies to yourself - particularly if that senile oul bastard of a grandfather of yours burnt the neighbours house to the ground.
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on September 25, 2009, 11:29:48 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:09:41 PM
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on September 25, 2009, 10:30:52 PM
Why not just put it to a vote now Roger then. If more people who actually live there we'll call it Derry if not then I'll even call it LondonDerry....Same old Unionist rhetoric the same as happened with the maze stadium..If the NI team/ Linfield don't like we'll stop it all happening .Don't like change...don't give a inch...Sick listening to it....there has to be give and take on both sides!
Its not all one way this peace process lads.
It was put to the vote in 1998. The process is clear. You just can't cry 'equality' or 'parity of esteem' when it doesn't suit and then go into an anti-unionist (plus out of nowhere Linfield and Maze) outburst when it does. It's not all one way this process. At least be consistent. Suck it up.
Exactly Roger its not all a one way process...it works both ways...Now just a example..I watched a debate in stormont the other night which happened to go on for about 8 hrs...But the whole jist of the whole debate centered around the notion that a nationalist can't be the new justice minister! Why because if they do then it wont have cross community support. So sinn Fein are going to allow this but the SDLP are up in arms. ( because sinn fein recognise that if they went for justice minister it would be up roar, so stood down)
Now do you think if the same situation was put to any unionist parties would they do the same?
I wouldn't have a problem with a nationalist being minister. I would have a problem if SF had the ministry though.
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2009, 11:47:33 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 10:16:53 PM
Do you live there? This is highly Political and nothing to do with changing a name back or ease of speaking or however it is dressed up for disguising partisan and narrow minded parochial and anti-British sentiment. As I am constantly reminded on this board, by you included, those days of sectarianism and showing who is boss are gone and anyone who thinks like that is a dinasaur and neanderthal. You fall into your own category of contempt.
What does it matter where I live? It's a town in my country just like Cobh, Dún Laoghaire or Craigavon for that matter and as a republican and anti-colonialist, I'm naturally going to reassert my country's sovereignty by ridding it of reminders of an unpleasant past.
But aside from that, the problem here is the unionist refusal to accept the reality of that past and accept that if you want to get on with your neighbours you should show them a little respect. Wheeling out the name of that town at every opportunity is as insulting to your neighbours as painting "Dirty Fenian cnuts, know your place!" across their back fence. Sometimes the respectful thing to do if your neighbour infringes a little on your space, is to say nothing and keep your domineering tendencies to yourself - particularly if that senile oul b**tard of a grandfather of yours burnt the neighbours house to the ground.
Where is the 'mentalist' smiley on this board???
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 25, 2009, 11:26:24 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:25:23 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 25, 2009, 11:21:23 PM
Fair enough, thanks.
No worries.
Since there has been no unfavourable plebiscite that you talk about, do you accept that Northern Ireland exists, is not part of the Republic of Ireland, is an integral part of the UK and has the right to determine its own constitutional future?
Yes.
Fair play.
Could you get some of the others on here to talk as straight as you?
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:53:04 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with a nationalist being minister. I would have a problem if SF had the ministry though.
Is this down to the party, or the individuals capabilities?
Quote from: firstsub on September 26, 2009, 12:10:03 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:53:04 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with a nationalist being minister. I would have a problem if SF had the ministry though.
Is this down to the party, or the individuals capabilities?
Down to trust. I'm happy enough with some of the SF people. For example I think Conor Murphy is one of the better MLAs in the whole place and his ministery is well run. I would not want him anywhere near justice though, he has 'previous' with regards to Justice but not Regional Development. I suppose it's a case of time elapsing to build trust. It might not be right, but it's pragmatic given the recent past and the seriousness of the department.
Fair enough. As one with an ecologist outlook, I had difficulty with the previous environment minister, for obvious reasons.
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:56:42 PM
Fair play.
Could you get some of the others on here to talk as straight as you?
Jesus Roger, I've already put my neck on the line, now you want me to skin and gut myself too! ;)
In all seriousness, I much appreciated your directness and straight talk, and to do less than reciprocate wasn't an option. There's hope for us.
Quote from: Roger on September 26, 2009, 12:21:46 AM
Quote from: firstsub on September 26, 2009, 12:10:03 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:53:04 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with a nationalist being minister. I would have a problem if SF had the ministry though.
Is this down to the party, or the individuals capabilities?
Down to trust. I'm happy enough with some of the SF people. For example I think Conor Murphy is one of the better MLAs in the whole place and his ministery is well run. I would not want him anywhere near justice though, he has 'previous' with regards to Justice but not Regional Development. I suppose it's a case of time elapsing to build trust. It might not be right, but it's pragmatic given the recent past and the seriousness of the department.
He wont be anywhere near Justice.....That will be UUP, DUP or more than likely a compromise Alliance. That Naomi Long blade actually is quite articulate and knows what she's doing so might be half decent at it...
Maybe we should get Willie Frazer in for this post....I'd say he'd be a smashing "justice (for anybody thats done anything against the union) minister.
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 25, 2009, 06:32:11 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 25, 2009, 12:47:14 PM
Rather, the problem is with the perception of sectarian motivation.
But honestly, what is the motivation, if not sectarian? It's all about identity surely - how can that not be sectarian? I'm not saying that such a motivation is necessarily a bad thing. I can fully understand why many people - especially those who live there - want the name changed, but let's call a spade a spade.
You like Roger bandy the word 'sectarian' with folly and disrespect.
Neither of you have explained why, a people who have been using the name of Derry as a name place for generations who want to have that officially done, is sectarian.
A name place that was in common general use in 1911 census. A name place that is known and used throughout all Ireland.
It will not be illegal for somebody keep calling it Londonderry, but if some citizen asks for a bus ticket to Derry
at least he wont have the bigoted reply of some d'íckhead being officially sanctioned.
Where is the 'mentalist' smiley on this board???
[/quote]
Well do you not accept that nationalists find the name insulting and represents all that was bad about the era of unionist domination?
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2009, 08:18:07 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 25, 2009, 08:04:26 PM
Not at all. You're obviously mistaking the term 'sectarian' as relating exclusively to religion. I wasn't.
But anyway, if it isn't an issue of asserting identity, what is it?
Am I? What else is there in my identity which you associate with belonging to a 'sect'?
Quote from: Main Street on September 26, 2009, 09:33:23 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 25, 2009, 06:32:11 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 25, 2009, 12:47:14 PM
Rather, the problem is with the perception of sectarian motivation.
But honestly, what is the motivation, if not sectarian? It's all about identity surely - how can that not be sectarian? I'm not saying that such a motivation is necessarily a bad thing. I can fully understand why many people - especially those who live there - want the name changed, but let's call a spade a spade.
You like Roger bandy the word 'sectarian' with folly and disrespect.
Neither of you have explained why, a people who have been using the name of Derry as a name place for generations who want to have that officially done, is sectarian.
A name place that was in common general use in 1911 census. A name place that is known and used throughout all Ireland.
'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.
For the record, I obviously call the city
Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2009, 11:47:33 PM
What does it matter where I live? It's a town in my country just like Cobh, Dún Laoghaire or Craigavon for that matter and as a republican and anti-colonialist, I'm naturally going to reassert my country's sovereignty by ridding it of reminders of an unpleasant past.
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2009, 08:18:07 PM
For me the name change is simply a matter of easing the memory of an unpleasant, oppressive and colonial past. Bit like Stalingrad, Leningrad, Queenstown or Kingstown.
Part of a wider and interesting debate actually - how far would you go with name changes?
Personally, Londonderry grates on me, bu there are plenty of others that I pass little remarks to. For example...
Would you rename Queen's University? What about the Royal Hospitals?
Then there are the street names, just in Belfast, off the top of my head, I can think of:
Royal Avenue
Gt Victoria Street
Queen Street
Queen's Bridge
Queen Elizabeth Bridge
Queen's Island
Queen's Quay
Victoria Street
King Street
Gloucester Street
Oxford Street
Bedford Street
Chichester Street
(and i'm sure there are about 100 more, just around Belfast)
I know other post-colonial countries have changed street names, but if the Republican strategy for reunification - and SF's Unionist Charter - is based on inclusion, then is that not inconsistent with changing all these names of 'British' origin? Would these 'British' identities not form part of the new inclusive Irish identity? Or will the Irish identity in a united Ireland be an exclusively Irish Nationalist one?
Quote from: Main Street on September 26, 2009, 09:33:23 AM
It will not be illegal for somebody keep calling it Londonderry, but if some citizen asks for a bus ticket to Derry
at least he wont have the bigoted reply of some d'íckhead being officially sanctioned.
I'm sure that with equality legislation and with Translink being a public company, you could pursue such an incident now if you wanted to.
And equally you could find a knuckledragger on the other side of the fence that could give a bigoted reply when being asked for a ticket to
Londonderry.
Bigots will always be bigots, regardless of what the official name of the city is.
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on September 26, 2009, 07:00:15 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 26, 2009, 12:21:46 AM
Quote from: firstsub on September 26, 2009, 12:10:03 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 25, 2009, 11:53:04 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with a nationalist being minister. I would have a problem if SF had the ministry though.
Is this down to the party, or the individuals capabilities?
Down to trust. I'm happy enough with some of the SF people. For example I think Conor Murphy is one of the better MLAs in the whole place and his ministery is well run. I would not want him anywhere near justice though, he has 'previous' with regards to Justice but not Regional Development. I suppose it's a case of time elapsing to build trust. It might not be right, but it's pragmatic given the recent past and the seriousness of the department.
He wont be anywhere near Justice.....That will be UUP, DUP or more than likely a compromise Alliance. That Naomi Long blade actually is quite articulate and knows what she's doing so might be half decent at it...
I think under the D'Hondt system the next minstery is due to go to the SDLP. I wouldn't have a problem with that party providing the minister. I don't see the objection of them but presume it must be more to do with sorting processes out now so that SF cannot get that ministery at some stage in future.
Quote from: Donagh on September 26, 2009, 10:20:36 AM
Where is the 'mentalist' smiley on this board???
Well do you not accept that nationalists find the name insulting and represents all that was bad about the era of unionist domination?
[/quote]
Your question infers that nationalists have a right to be anti-British and that unionists should just suck it up and carry some sort of guilt that needs to be paid for, on behalf of people who they weren't born to witness. That postition has nothing to do with equality, shared future or your Ireland of Equals that is the usual smoke screen for the real motivation and intent and to disguise the real shape of things to come.
QuoteYour question infers that nationalists have a right to be anti-British and that unionists should just suck it up and carry some sort of guilt that needs to be paid for, on behalf of people who they weren't born to witness.
Northern Ireland is a sectarian entity and the result of colonisation. Any moral person has an obligation to oppose that and if you benefit from it then you should indeed feel guilty. It never ceases to amaze that while say Germans are not at all proud of having beaten up their neighbours in the past, British people feel no shame whatsoever, but celebrate their conquests.
NI at present is inherently sectarian. Unionists continually justify all sorts of sectarian ways of doing things on the basis that they are "traditional" and allege that those who want change to ensure some balance are sectarian. So an Orange march in a nationalist town is OK, and proposing that it end is "sectarian", but a proposal for a similar nationalist march in a unionist town would also be "sectarian". Pure Hypocracy.
I can only conclude that your view on unionists is that they are scum.
QuoteI can only conclude that your view on unionists is that they are scum.
Don't put words in my mouth.
A strong sense of continuity and community is generally a good thing. But you have to reflect on the legacy that the past is providing you. Unionism has yet to do this, in part because of the focus has been on opposition to campaign of violence and the crassness of some nationalists.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 27, 2009, 12:28:34 AM
QuoteI can only conclude that your view on unionists is that they are scum.
Don't put words in my mouth.
You said unionists are immoral.
QuoteYou said unionists are immoral.
I said that the project to make Ireland a colony of Britain was an immoral enterprise, so you could interpret that as saying that
unionism is immoral. Which doesn't say anything about other aspects of the lives of unionists. That said, there is a bible bashing faction in unionism and I believe that these are hypocritical in many respects on this matter.
I am making a subtle distinction here. Unionists can reasonably argue that conditions do not exist presently for ending the union, and so support its continuation. All parties from SF in, who support the GFA support the union continuing at present. But morality requires working to build common ground rather than continuing to foster division to keep the union going.
No, you said that moral people oppose the NI state.
You now simply state that unionists are wrong, since they want to remain part of the UK and have no desire to ever change that. Therefore I presume that you think they are immoral and that's not a word too far removed from scum.
Another question for you Roger: do you think it was right, that before 1805 the non-Established Church Protestants (aka Dissenters, i.e., anything but Church of Ireland/Anglicans) were prohibited from joining the Orange Order?
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 26, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.
For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.
No it's about bringing an end to an age old insult. It has to be recognised that the current name of the town is grossly insulting and the status quo is not an acceptable option.
Using the telly for access, apologies for typos...
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 27, 2009, 01:17:55 AM
Another question for you Roger: do you think it was right, that before 1805 the non-Established Church Protestants (aka Dissenters, i.e., anything but Church of Ireland/Anglicans) were prohibited from joining the Orange Order?
I have no opinion on it.
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 26, 2009, 07:54:23 PM
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2009, 11:47:33 PM
What does it matter where I live? It's a town in my country just like Cobh, Dún Laoghaire or Craigavon for that matter and as a republican and anti-colonialist, I'm naturally going to reassert my country's sovereignty by ridding it of reminders of an unpleasant past.
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2009, 08:18:07 PM
For me the name change is simply a matter of easing the memory of an unpleasant, oppressive and colonial past. Bit like Stalingrad, Leningrad, Queenstown or Kingstown.
Part of a wider and interesting debate actually - how far would you go with name changes?
Personally, Londonderry grates on me, bu there are plenty of others that I pass little remarks to. For example...
Would you rename Queen's University? What about the Royal Hospitals?
Then there are the street names, just in Belfast, off the top of my head, I can think of:
Royal Avenue
Gt Victoria Street
Queen Street
Queen's Bridge
Queen Elizabeth Bridge
Queen's Island
Queen's Quay
Victoria Street
King Street
Gloucester Street
Oxford Street
Bedford Street
Chichester Street
(and i'm sure there are about 100 more, just around Belfast)
I know other post-colonial countries have changed street names, but if the Republican strategy for reunification - and SF's Unionist Charter - is based on inclusion, then is that not inconsistent with changing all these names of 'British' origin? Would these 'British' identities not form part of the new inclusive Irish identity? Or will the Irish identity in a united Ireland be an exclusively Irish Nationalist one?
I think you may be reading into it too much. I've no problem with street names or indeed things that reflect the rich cultural history of Ulster. The issue here is about removing reminders of unionisms racist past, not of unionist culture or identity.
Quote from: Roger on September 27, 2009, 01:33:50 AM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 27, 2009, 01:17:55 AM
Another question for you Roger: do you think it was right, that before 1805 the non-Established Church Protestants (aka Dissenters, i.e., anything but Church of Ireland/Anglicans) were prohibited from joining the Orange Order?
I have no opinion on it.
Not being smart, but that doesn't surprise me.
To me, it's a fairly important part of recent Irish history, in that it allowed the powers that were to get a majority on their side, at the cost of a diminution of wealth. But that was something that they were prepared to accept insofar as it would lead to an ulitmately superior force to subjugate those who would oppose.
I know for a fact that erstwhile Dissenters don't like to think that they were ever outside of the golden circle, and Anglicans don't like to think that they ever had such venom for anyone other than the Taigs ;). I also know that Church of Ireland get a hard time from the Presbys, Methodists, Baptists, etc., hard though that may be to believe.
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 01:41:00 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 26, 2009, 07:54:23 PM
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2009, 11:47:33 PM
What does it matter where I live? It's a town in my country just like Cobh, Dún Laoghaire or Craigavon for that matter and as a republican and anti-colonialist, I'm naturally going to reassert my country's sovereignty by ridding it of reminders of an unpleasant past.
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2009, 08:18:07 PM
For me the name change is simply a matter of easing the memory of an unpleasant, oppressive and colonial past. Bit like Stalingrad, Leningrad, Queenstown or Kingstown.
Part of a wider and interesting debate actually - how far would you go with name changes?
Personally, Londonderry grates on me, bu there are plenty of others that I pass little remarks to. For example...
Would you rename Queen's University? What about the Royal Hospitals?
Then there are the street names, just in Belfast, off the top of my head, I can think of:
Royal Avenue
Gt Victoria Street
Queen Street
Queen's Bridge
Queen Elizabeth Bridge
Queen's Island
Queen's Quay
Victoria Street
King Street
Gloucester Street
Oxford Street
Bedford Street
Chichester Street
(and i'm sure there are about 100 more, just around Belfast)
I know other post-colonial countries have changed street names, but if the Republican strategy for reunification - and SF's Unionist Charter - is based on inclusion, then is that not inconsistent with changing all these names of 'British' origin? Would these 'British' identities not form part of the new inclusive Irish identity? Or will the Irish identity in a united Ireland be an exclusively Irish Nationalist one?
I think you may be reading into it too much. I've no problem with street names or indeed things that reflect the rich cultural history of Ulster. The issue here is about removing reminders of unionisms racist past, not of unionist culture or identity.
I don't understand how street names can be any less of a reminder to you than a town's name.
Where is Unionism's racist past in the name
Londonderry, where it isn't in other placenames of British origin.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 27, 2009, 01:46:02 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 27, 2009, 01:33:50 AM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 27, 2009, 01:17:55 AM
Another question for you Roger: do you think it was right, that before 1805 the non-Established Church Protestants (aka Dissenters, i.e., anything but Church of Ireland/Anglicans) were prohibited from joining the Orange Order?
I have no opinion on it.
Not being smart, but that doesn't surprise me.
To me, it's a fairly important part of recent Irish history, in that it allowed the powers that were to get a majority on their side, at the cost of a diminution of wealth. But that was something that they were prepared to accept insofar as it would lead to an ulitmately superior force to subjugate those who would oppose.
I know for a fact that erstwhile Dissenters don't like to think that they were ever outside of the golden circle, and Anglicans don't like to think that they ever had such venom for anyone other than the Taigs ;). I also know that Church of Ireland get a hard time from the Presbys, Methodists, Baptists, etc., hard though that may be to believe.
I don't really care about 1805 and the Orange Order. I don't think any of my ancestors came from the Anglican Church and I'm well aware that Presbyterians (probably my background but not solely) would have me labelled a Blackmouth due to discrimination but I find it irrelevant to me in 2009.
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 01:32:28 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 26, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.
For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.
No it's about bringing an end to an age old insult. It has to be recognised that the current name of the town is grossly insulting and the status quo is not an acceptable option.
Yes, and changing the name back to Derry will be the start of a new insult for Unionists - hardly part of the
new inclusive Ireland. Two wrongs won't make a right.
And regardless of whether the move is to end an 'insult', it can't
not be political - it's pretty much Nationalists v Unionists.
I agree that the status quo is not an acceptable option. But should we not be looking for a
compromise that might get some broad agreement from people 'on both sides'?
I think the idea of a new name is crap, but dual naming is one possible solution. People will continue to call the city in line with their own preference, but both names would have official status, both names would be included on signage / maps etc... thereby you recognise that there are 2 legitimate traditions in the city.
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 11:13:16 AM
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 01:32:28 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 26, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.
For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.
No it's about bringing an end to an age old insult. It has to be recognised that the current name of the town is grossly insulting and the status quo is not an acceptable option.
Yes, and changing the name back to Derry will be the start of a new insult for Unionists - hardly part of the new inclusive Ireland. Two wrongs won't make a right.
And regardless of whether the move is to end an 'insult', it can't not be political - it's pretty much Nationalists v Unionists.
I agree that the status quo is not an acceptable option. But should we not be looking for a compromise that might get some broad agreement from people 'on both sides'?
I think the idea of a new name is crap, but dual naming is one possible solution. People will continue to call the city in line with their own preference, but both names would have official status, both names would be included on signage / maps etc... thereby you recognise that there are 2 legitimate traditions in the city.
You hit the nail right on the head there " back to Derry"
Can you explain why it was changer in the start?
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on September 27, 2009, 11:17:58 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 11:13:16 AM
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 01:32:28 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 26, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.
For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.
No it's about bringing an end to an age old insult. It has to be recognised that the current name of the town is grossly insulting and the status quo is not an acceptable option.
Yes, and changing the name back to Derry will be the start of a new insult for Unionists - hardly part of the new inclusive Ireland. Two wrongs won't make a right.
And regardless of whether the move is to end an 'insult', it can't not be political - it's pretty much Nationalists v Unionists.
I agree that the status quo is not an acceptable option. But should we not be looking for a compromise that might get some broad agreement from people 'on both sides'?
I think the idea of a new name is crap, but dual naming is one possible solution. People will continue to call the city in line with their own preference, but both names would have official status, both names would be included on signage / maps etc... thereby you recognise that there are 2 legitimate traditions in the city.
You hit the nail right on the head there " back to Derry"
Can you explain why it was changer in the start?
It's in the history books. It happened in the 1600s. Things change. Lots of things have changed in the last 350/400 years.
We have to deal with the 'here and now'.
I think the proposal in Derry to call the greater city Derry, but to talk about the Walled City of LondonDerry for the historic section of the city, is a reasonable one that respects the history of the place.
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 26, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.
For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.
By that questionable logic, a majority decision is sectarian.
In this example, a majority decision about a name which has been in general use for generations. A name whose usage crossed all political/religious boundaries before partition.
Having 2 official names on a signpost, is a nonsense idea imo
Quote from: Main Street on September 27, 2009, 11:44:07 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 26, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.
For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.
By that questionable logic, a majority decision is sectarian.
In this example, a majority decision about a name which has been in general use for generations. A name whose usage crossed all political/religious boundaries before partition.
Yes, but we're dealing with the present reality. That people/Unionists we're happy using a particular name in the past is largely irrelevant. We have to deal with today's Unionists.
Quote from: Main Street on September 27, 2009, 11:44:07 AM
Having 2 official names on a signpost, is a nonsense idea imo
Why so?
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 11:13:16 AM
I think the idea of a new name is crap, but dual naming is one possible solution. People will continue to call the city in line with their own preference, but both names would have official status, both names would be included on signage / maps etc... thereby you recognise that there are 2 legitimate traditions in the city.
Strikes me as a good idea. Could it be extended to the name of Northern Ireland / the North of Ireland? :P
Quote from: armaghniac on September 27, 2009, 11:39:35 AM
I think the proposal in Derry to call the greater city Derry, but to talk about the Walled City of LondonDerry for the historic section of the city, is a reasonable one that respects the history of the place.
On page 75 the Council lists three policy alternatives -
Option 1: No change in the name
Option 2: Change name to Derry/Londonderry
Option 3: Change name to Derry but retain Londonderry for Walled City
Option 1 and 2 are rejected on the basis that they do not reflect the need for a single clear identity and do not reflect the wishes of the vast majority of citizens.
Option 3 is rejected on the basis that this option has no perceived cross-party political support.http://www.equalityni.org/archive/ECNI%20DDC%20EQIA.pdf
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 11:13:16 AM
Yes, and changing the name back to Derry will be the start of a new insult for Unionists - hardly part of the new inclusive Ireland. Two wrongs won't make a right.
And regardless of whether the move is to end an 'insult', it can't not be political - it's pretty much Nationalists v Unionists.
I agree that the status quo is not an acceptable option. But should we not be looking for a compromise that might get some broad agreement from people 'on both sides'?
I think the idea of a new name is crap, but dual naming is one possible solution. People will continue to call the city in line with their own preference, but both names would have official status, both names would be included on signage / maps etc... thereby you recognise that there are 2 legitimate traditions in the city.
That's a ridiculous line of argument. You are defending one groups right to insult another because you believe they'd be insulted if they're required to stop insulting the other. If that was a child, it would get a clip around the ear and told to wise-up.
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 12:21:45 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 11:13:16 AM
Yes, and changing the name back to Derry will be the start of a new insult for Unionists - hardly part of the new inclusive Ireland. Two wrongs won't make a right.
And regardless of whether the move is to end an 'insult', it can't not be political - it's pretty much Nationalists v Unionists.
I agree that the status quo is not an acceptable option. But should we not be looking for a compromise that might get some broad agreement from people 'on both sides'?
I think the idea of a new name is crap, but dual naming is one possible solution. People will continue to call the city in line with their own preference, but both names would have official status, both names would be included on signage / maps etc... thereby you recognise that there are 2 legitimate traditions in the city.
That's a ridiculous line of argument. You are defending one groups right to insult another because you believe they'd be insulted if they're required to stop insulting the other. If that was a child, it would get a clip around the ear and told to wise-up.
I'm not defending anyone's right to insult another - where do you get that from?
But are you not dismissing the idea that a name change will now insult Unionists, however legitimate you perceive such an insult to be?
I'm definitely
not saying that Nationalists should continue to feel 'insulted', just to spare Unioinists from being 'insulted'; that's a futile position. All i'm doing is trying to gauge whether there's any appetite for a compromise on the name issue by Nationalists. For you, it's clearly black and white.
Perhaps Derry (formerly Londonderry during periods of geryymanded unionist rule) would reflect the situation.
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 12:37:54 PM
I'm not defending anyone's right to insult another - where do you get that from?
But are you not dismissing the idea that a name change will now insult Unionists, however legitimate you perceive such an insult to be?
I'm definitely not saying that Nationalists should continue to feel 'insulted', just to spare Unioinists from being 'insulted'; that's a futile position. All i'm doing is trying to gauge whether there's any appetite for a compromise on the name issue by Nationalists. For you, it's clearly black and white.
Well you are on here defending unionists aiming to retain the insulting name, if that is not defending it I apologise.
I do dismiss the idea that the name change will be an insult to unionists, they may not like it, like the KKK may not like being barred from tarring and feathering black people but it's certainly not insulting to make them refrain from insulting others.
As far as I'm concerned they can keep a ward of the council named Londonderry but all official reference to it in respect of the town or county should be wiped out. After that comes Craigavon although I suspect it's integration into the new council will see it quickly forgotten as it is broken up into various new towns.
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 01:10:00 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 12:37:54 PM
I'm not defending anyone's right to insult another - where do you get that from?
But are you not dismissing the idea that a name change will now insult Unionists, however legitimate you perceive such an insult to be?
I'm definitely not saying that Nationalists should continue to feel 'insulted', just to spare Unioinists from being 'insulted'; that's a futile position. All i'm doing is trying to gauge whether there's any appetite for a compromise on the name issue by Nationalists. For you, it's clearly black and white.
Well you are on here defending unionists aiming to retain the insulting name, if that is not defending it I apologise.
I do dismiss the idea that the name change will be an insult to unionists, they may not like it, like the KKK may not like being barred from tarring and feathering black people but it's certainly not insulting to make them refrain from insulting others.
As far as I'm concerned they can keep a ward of the council named Londonderry but all official reference to it in respect of the town or county should be wiped out. After that comes Craigavon although I suspect it's integration into the new council will see it quickly forgotten as it is broken up into various new towns.
I'm not defending Unionists, i'm trying to look at it objectively; you just want to dismiss an opposing opinion out of hand. Clearly the charter for Unionist engagement isn't worth the paper it's written on.
I'm sure many Unionists use the term Londonderry as naturally as we use the name Derry. I doubt they're all using it just to insult Catholics; you clearly don't.
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 01:35:14 PM
I'm not defending Unionists, i'm trying to look at it objectively; you just want to dismiss an opposing opinion out of hand. Clearly the charter for Unionist engagement isn't worth the paper it's written on.
I'm sure many Unionists use the term Londonderry as naturally as we use the name Derry. I doubt they're all using it just to insult Catholics; you clearly don't.
If you are looking at it objectively you will recognise the insult that it is to the rest of the country to retain the name. It doesn't matter if it is natural for them to use the term, as I'm sure it's natural for the KKK to use the term ;nigger', but the plain fact is they will have to understand that it is not an acceptable term to use elsewhere.
I've no idea what charter you are talking about.
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 01:35:14 PM
I'm not defending Unionists, i'm trying to look at it objectively; you just want to dismiss an opposing opinion out of hand. Clearly the charter for Unionist engagement isn't worth the paper it's written on.
I'm sure many Unionists use the term Londonderry as naturally as we use the name Derry. I doubt they're all using it just to insult Catholics; you clearly don't.
If you are looking at it objectively you will recognise the insult that it is to the rest of the country to retain the name. It doesn't matter if it is natural for them to use the term, as I'm sure it's natural for the KKK to use the term ;nigger', but the plain fact is they will have to understand that it is not an acceptable term to use elsewhere.
I've no idea what charter you are talking about.
I find it more important that
Derry is recognised than
Londonderry wiped out. If Derry is recognised as the legitimate name for the city, then it doesn't offend or insult me that there could be a second official name.
As for comparing the term 'nigger' to 'Londonderry' - I think there's a bit of a difference. ::)
The charter: http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/UnionistCharter.pdf
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 01:52:51 PM
I find it more important that Derry is recognised than Londonderry wiped out. If Derry is recognised as the legitimate name for the city, then it doesn't offend or insult me that there could be a second official name.
As for comparing the term 'nigger' to 'Londonderry' - I think there's a bit of a difference. ::)
The charter: http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/UnionistCharter.pdf
Good for you.
Not to me there isn't. The are both symptomatic of the same mentality.
I don't see what some SF charter has to do with the issue.
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 01:57:35 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 01:52:51 PM
I find it more important that Derry is recognised than Londonderry wiped out. If Derry is recognised as the legitimate name for the city, then it doesn't offend or insult me that there could be a second official name.
As for comparing the term 'nigger' to 'Londonderry' - I think there's a bit of a difference. ::)
The charter: http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/UnionistCharter.pdf
Good for you.
Not to me there isn't. The are both symptomatic of the same mentality.
I don't see what some SF charter has to do with the issue.
You can't? You don't see that the Derry issue is largely a Nationalist/Republican vs Unioinst issue and the Charter is about how Republicans propose to engage with those same Unionists as part of the 'Ireland of Equals'?
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 02:07:01 PM
You can't? You don't see that the Derry issue is largely a Nationalist/Republican vs Unioinst issue and the Charter is about how Republicans propose to engage with those same Unionists as part of the 'Ireland of Equals'?
Just because you perceive it as a "Nationalist/Republican vs Unioinst issue" doesn't mean that it is. I've told you already I see it as removing an insult to one side of the community. If unionists get annoyed because someone takes their catapult away they'll just have to learn how to play nice the next time. It's all fun and games until someone gets a eye put out as they say.
I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make with SF documents, maybe you should take it up with Gerry or Martin, but in my opinion if they are republicans they'd be in favour removing the trappings of colonialism from this country.
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 02:22:22 PM
but in my opinion if they are republicans they'd be in favour removing the trappings of colonialism from this country.
That'd be some undertaking alright. No more spaking the English, returning place names to their original and half of Derry back in Tyrone.
Quote from: ONeill on September 27, 2009, 02:36:03 PM
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 02:22:22 PM
but in my opinion if they are republicans they'd be in favour removing the trappings of colonialism from this country.
That'd be some undertaking alright. No more spaking the English, returning place names to their original and half of Derry back in Tyrone.
They're all symbolic signs of the English hand on our land. That's what trappings are.
Get the big stone back at Tullyhogue!!
Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2009, 02:22:22 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 02:07:01 PM
You can't? You don't see that the Derry issue is largely a Nationalist/Republican vs Unioinst issue and the Charter is about how Republicans propose to engage with those same Unionists as part of the 'Ireland of Equals'?
Just because you perceive it as a "Nationalist/Republican vs Unioinst issue" doesn't mean that it is. I've told you already I see it as removing an insult to one side of the community. If unionists get annoyed because someone takes their catapult away they'll just have to learn how to play nice the next time. It's all fun and games until someone gets a eye put out as they say.
You're contradicting yourself, are you not?
If it's removing an insult to "one side of the community" by the other side, then surely you're referring to the Nationalist side of the community being insulted by the Unionist side. As such, how can it not be a Nationalist/Republican vs Unionist issue?
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 03:03:16 PM
You're contradicting yourself, are you not?
If it's removing an insult to "one side of the community" by the other side, then surely you're referring to the Nationalist side of the community being insulted by the Unionist side. As such, how can it not be a Nationalist/Republican vs Unionist issue?
Because the insults are being hurled by one side only. If the nationalists wanted to rename it Dublinderry then it would probably be a "Nationalist/Republican vs Unionist issue" but they don't.
Unionists likened to KKK yet again. Nationalists insulted by the building and naming of a city. Poor wee souls. ::)
Quote from: Roger on September 27, 2009, 06:48:02 PM
Unionists likened to KKK yet again. Nationalists insulted by the building and naming of a city. Poor wee souls. ::)
Roger maybe they should have built the city in England ;)
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 27, 2009, 09:20:29 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 27, 2009, 06:48:02 PM
Unionists likened to KKK yet again. Nationalists insulted by the building and naming of a city. Poor wee souls. ::)
Roger maybe they should have built the city in England ;)
Unihabited and green field sites were popular in those days.
FFS get it sort before this lad arrives: http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Corrie-39bad-boy39-David-Platt.5681088.jp
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 12:07:30 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 27, 2009, 11:44:07 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 26, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.
For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.
By that questionable logic, a majority decision is sectarian.
In this example, a majority decision about a name which has been in general use for generations. A name whose usage crossed all political/religious boundaries before partition.
Yes, but we're dealing with the present reality. That people/Unionists we're happy using a particular name in the past is largely irrelevant. We have to deal with today's Unionists.
Maguire, will you ever cease this endless slithering, answer the simple question and explain exactly why you claim a majority decision to make official what has been practice for many decades, to be an exercise in sectarianism.
Quote from: Roger on September 27, 2009, 10:27:25 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 27, 2009, 09:20:29 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 27, 2009, 06:48:02 PM
Unionists likened to KKK yet again. Nationalists insulted by the building and naming of a city. Poor wee souls. ::)
Roger maybe they should have built the city in England ;)
Unihabited!!!!! and green field sites were popular in those days.
Like North America & Australia ::)
Surely Londinium is the Capital of the United Kingdom, as the foreign Roman Imperialists name of the city they built.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 28, 2009, 01:23:00 AM
Surely Londinium is the Capital of the United Kingdom, as the foreign Roman Imperialists name of the city they built.
Kind of nice twist to Londonderry though isn't it. It is a shared British and Irish name which should meet the standards set by nationalists. But don't tell Paisley's crowd about the Roman influence of the name London whatever you do. Or maybe you should, so he'd support deleting the London bit. But then again that'd probaby mean the name remains the same with nationalist support. Funny old part of the world.
Quote from: Roger on September 28, 2009, 01:31:18 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 28, 2009, 01:23:00 AM
Surely Londinium is the Capital of the United Kingdom, as the foreign Roman Imperialists name of the city they built.
Kind of nice twist to Londonderry though isn't it. It is a shared British and Irish name which should meet the standards set by nationalists. But don't tell Paisley's crowd about the Roman influence of the name London whatever you do. Or maybe you should, so he'd support deleting the London bit. But then again that'd probaby mean the name remains the same with nationalist support. Funny old part of the world.
Ya, Home Rule is Rome Rule! Ireland never had as much Rome Rule as London :D Surely as an Irishman Roger you would prefer an Irish name on the city rather than an English one(as opposed to a British one), if I was a Northern Unionist I would be arguing Derry is a British name because is a name indigenous to a part of the United Kingdom (not that I agree personaly it should be).
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 28, 2009, 01:41:40 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 28, 2009, 01:31:18 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 28, 2009, 01:23:00 AM
Surely Londinium is the Capital of the United Kingdom, as the foreign Roman Imperialists name of the city they built.
Kind of nice twist to Londonderry though isn't it. It is a shared British and Irish name which should meet the standards set by nationalists. But don't tell Paisley's crowd about the Roman influence of the name London whatever you do. Or maybe you should, so he'd support deleting the London bit. But then again that'd probaby mean the name remains the same with nationalist support. Funny old part of the world.
Ya, Home Rule is Rome Rule! Ireland never had as much Rome Rule as London :D Surely as an Irishman Roger you would prefer an Irish name on the city rather than an English one(as opposed to a British one), if I was a Northern Unionist I would be arguing Derry is a British name because is a name indigenous to a part of the United Kingdom (not that I agree personaly it should be).
The name Londonderry has a nice richness of all our history contained within, both Irish and British. Getting rid of the London bit because it is British is simply a sectarian motive. I've heard about people wanting to remove the insult, but who really is "insulted" by the name so much so that all this judicial process is required? You need to get out more. It really is daft and petty mindedness by those pursuing it (never mind those who paint out the word London on road signs) and simply a stubborn response by those actively campaigning against renaming the city. The place is called Londonderry but call it what you will and whatever is easiest to communicate (kind of the way it was in the 1911 census before there was sectarian intent on officially changing the name) and simply get on with it. I call Carrickfergus simply "Carrick" or Newtownards simply "Ards" all the time but I know what their official names are and I don't give an aeronautical intercourse about it. Now if someone decided to change them officially for some Politically sectarian reason then I'd oppose it. As all people who have a vested interest in a shared future should.
Quote from: Roger on September 28, 2009, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 28, 2009, 01:41:40 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 28, 2009, 01:31:18 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 28, 2009, 01:23:00 AM
Surely Londinium is the Capital of the United Kingdom, as the foreign Roman Imperialists name of the city they built.
Kind of nice twist to Londonderry though isn't it. It is a shared British and Irish name which should meet the standards set by nationalists. But don't tell Paisley's crowd about the Roman influence of the name London whatever you do. Or maybe you should, so he'd support deleting the London bit. But then again that'd probaby mean the name remains the same with nationalist support. Funny old part of the world.
Ya, Home Rule is Rome Rule! Ireland never had as much Rome Rule as London :D Surely as an Irishman Roger you would prefer an Irish name on the city rather than an English one(as opposed to a British one), if I was a Northern Unionist I would be arguing Derry is a British name because is a name indigenous to a part of the United Kingdom (not that I agree personaly it should be).
The name Londonderry has a nice richness of all our history contained within, both Irish and British. Getting rid of the London bit because it is British is simply a sectarian motive. I've heard about people wanting to remove the insult, but who really is "insulted" by the name so much so that all this judicial process is required? You need to get out more. It really is daft and petty mindedness by those pursuing it (never mind those who paint out the word London on road signs) and simply a stubborn response by those actively campaigning against renaming the city. The place is called Londonderry but call it what you will and whatever is easiest to communicate (kind of the way it was in the 1911 census before there was sectarian intent on officially changing the name) and simply get on with it. I call Carrickfergus simply "Carrick" or Newtownards simply "Ards" all the time but I know what their official names are and I don't give an aeronautical intercourse about it. Now if someone decided to change them officially for some Politically sectarian reason then I'd oppose it. As all people who have a vested interest in a shared future should.
Read again Roger I was suggesting that the name was Enlgish rather than a British one, as I understand in the Modern United Kingdom most willing (I won't say Loyal as they don't seem very Loyal on the Island of Britain) subjects who live in the Regions other than England want to retain their British Identity but not become part of Greater England.
How about renaming the City entirely, howabout BallyUladh or Ulsterville, CuchullanAgusWilliamsvillle 8)
[Londiniumdoire]
No need to change the current perfectly good name reflecting both main traditions in the city ;)
Don't want to confuse the good people of Tierra Del Fuego
Quote from: Main Street on September 27, 2009, 11:56:52 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 27, 2009, 12:07:30 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 27, 2009, 11:44:07 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 26, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.
For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.
By that questionable logic, a majority decision is sectarian.
In this example, a majority decision about a name which has been in general use for generations. A name whose usage crossed all political/religious boundaries before partition.
Yes, but we're dealing with the present reality. That people/Unionists we're happy using a particular name in the past is largely irrelevant. We have to deal with today's Unionists.
Maguire, will you ever cease this endless slithering, answer the simple question and explain exactly why you claim a majority decision to make official what has been practice for many decades, to be an exercise in sectarianism.
Slithering? How?
Call it 'politically' motivated then, rather than 'sectarian', if that offends you less. But it's a debate that's clearly divided along Nationalist and Unionist lines, and it's about reasserting the Nationalist identity of the City's name, and removing the Unionist identity.
Quote from: hardstation on September 27, 2009, 09:25:32 PM
Londonderry
Derry
Doire
Derryshire
Doire Cholm Chille
Lovely Derry
Legenderry
Shithole
You decide...
I pick the latter.
Latter can only be used when there are two items to choose from. ;)
Quote from: Roger on September 27, 2009, 10:27:25 PM
Unihabited and green field sites were popular in those days.
Uninhabited me arse .... when armed thugs had killed or expelled the people who had been living there. >:(
Quote from: Rossfan on September 28, 2009, 06:45:55 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 27, 2009, 10:27:25 PM
Unihabited and green field sites were popular in those days.
Uninhabited me arse .... when armed thugs had killed or expelled the people who had been living there. >:(
What was the name of that bad brit who destroyed it?
I said armed thugs, you know men of violence who decided that the Irish shouldnt be allowed to live or exist in their own Country.
We're still here and will be till the end of time. ;)
Irish people getting a good Rogering from the chosen elect.
(http://www.libraryireland.com/HistoryIreland/Massacre-Drogheda.jpg)
Quote from: Rossfan on September 29, 2009, 08:03:19 PM
We're still here and will be till the end of time. ;)
I'd be fairly certain of that too. We Irish people will indeed be here ;)
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 08:22:44 PM
Irish people getting a good Rogering from the chosen elect.
(http://www.libraryireland.com/HistoryIreland/Massacre-Drogheda.jpg)
Is that my forefathers or your's or both on both sides?
Quote from: Rossfan on September 29, 2009, 08:03:19 PM
I said armed thugs, you know men of violence who decided that the Irish shouldnt be allowed to live or exist in their own Country.
Do you know who destroyed the old town of Doire / Colmcille?
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 09:03:55 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 29, 2009, 08:03:19 PM
We're still here and will be till the end of time. ;)
I'd be fairly certain of that too. We Irish people will indeed be here ;)
Come on Roger admit it ye all want to be Irish not British at all, ye just like all that pomp and ceremony. Question Roger when Britain becomes a Republic will they have to change the name to the United Republic? Sure ye might as well join us at that stage.
QuoteIs that my forefathers or your's or both on both sides?
It may have been your forefathers, but it wasn't mine as you British didn't manage to massacre my ancestors, which is fortunate otherwise I wouldn't be here.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 09:21:24 PM
QuoteIs that my forefathers or your's or both on both sides?
It may have been your forefathers, but it wasn't mine as you British didn't manage to massacre my ancestors, which is fortunate otherwise I wouldn't be here.
You are of purest Gaelic blood?
Of course the Gaels arrived here to an uninhabited land didn't they and no other people here apart from Gaels can be "Irish"?
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 29, 2009, 09:08:48 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 09:03:55 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 29, 2009, 08:03:19 PM
We're still here and will be till the end of time. ;)
I'd be fairly certain of that too. We Irish people will indeed be here ;)
Come on Roger admit it ye all want to be Irish not British at all, ye just like all that pomp and ceremony. Question Roger when Britain becomes a Republic will they have to change the name to the United Republic? Sure ye might as well join us at that stage.
I am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish. For me, Ireland is simply a region of the UK. I support the monarchy and do not see the UK being a Republic in my life time. If your hypothesy came true, there would be better merit in the Republic of Ireland joining a United Republic of Britain and Northern Ireland, than Northern Ireland joining the Republic of Ireland.
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
2040
Conferation of Ireland
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg/120px-)
The British Republic
(http://flagspot.net/images/g/gb-1606.gif)
2070
The Flags of the Independent Republics in the Atlantic Archipelago
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Flag_of_Leinster.svg/120px-Flag_of_Leinster.svg.png)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Flag_of_England.svg/175px-)
(http://www.scotland-calling.com/images-front-page/flag2.gif)
(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/g/gb-wales.gif)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Flag_of_Cornwall.svg/150px-)
2085
Flag of the Atlantic Archipelago
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Flag_of_Europe.svg/200px-)
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
I belive that British and Irish are identities not exclusive of each other. I am British and Irish.
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
Ireland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British. The President of the Republic of Ireland is also on record as stating that the two aren't mutually exclusive.
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 11:08:16 PM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
Ireland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British. The President of the Republic of Ireland is also on record as stating that the two aren't mutually exclusive.
No such place as the Republic of Ireland and no such title, she is the President of Ireland.
The British Isles is a Imperalist British term, and Ireland has never been and never will be a British Isle. IRELAND IS IRELAND. It will be around long after the UK as desolved into memory along with the Roman Empire, The Ottoman Empire, The German Reich & The Soviet Union.
That President only has jurisdiction over part of Ireland so that term is inaccurate regardless of what she likes to call herself.
Tell me, will Ireland be around as long as Hibernia ???
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 11:37:23 PM
That President only has jurisdiction over part of Ireland so that term is inaccurate regardless of what she likes to call herself.
Tell me, will Ireland be around as long as Hibernia ???
Hibernia, Scottia, Eiru, Eireann, Ireland same place.
QuoteIreland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British.
Just as you don't have to be born in Germany to be German.
Ireland will be around when Londonderry, the OO and the whole sad sick sectarian NI province will be viewed in the same light as East Germany and Biafra.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 11:50:16 PM
QuoteIreland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British.
Just as you don't have to be born in Germany to be German.
Ireland will be around when Londonderry, the OO and the whole sad sick sectarian NI province will be viewed in the same light as East Germany and Biafra.
Rightyho.
Meanwhile, I hope you and your family make the most of your life.
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 11:57:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 11:50:16 PM
QuoteIreland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British.
Just as you don't have to be born in Germany to be German.
Ireland will be around when Londonderry, the OO and the whole sad sick sectarian NI province will be viewed in the same light as East Germany and Biafra.
Rightyho.
Meanwhile, I hope you and your family make the most of your life.
Your right there, I can't see full Irish Independence for at least another 25 years at the earliest.
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 11:08:16 PM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
Ireland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British. The President of the Republic of Ireland is also on record as stating that the two aren't mutually exclusive.
Even more confused than I thought. You are British,and fair play to ya. British people have a long ancestral trail on the Island of Ireland. Irish however,You are not.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 29, 2009, 11:59:20 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 11:57:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 11:50:16 PM
QuoteIreland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British.
Just as you don't have to be born in Germany to be German.
Ireland will be around when Londonderry, the OO and the whole sad sick sectarian NI province will be viewed in the same light as East Germany and Biafra.
Rightyho.
Meanwhile, I hope you and your family make the most of your life.
Your right there, I can't see full Irish Independence for at least another 25 years at the earliest.
In your dreams will it be fully independent or actually dependent on an even bigger place than the UK ie Europe?
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 12:03:45 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 11:08:16 PM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
Ireland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British. The President of the Republic of Ireland is also on record as stating that the two aren't mutually exclusive.
Even more confused than I thought. You are British,and fair play to ya. British people have a long ancestral trail on the Island of Ireland. Irish however,You are not.
A case of 'people who think like me got here before you so we're the real Irish'? Who was here before you? Talk about a dinasauric view of identity. I thought unionists were meant to be the backward lookers.
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 29, 2009, 11:59:20 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 11:57:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 11:50:16 PM
QuoteIreland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British.
Just as you don't have to be born in Germany to be German.
Ireland will be around when Londonderry, the OO and the whole sad sick sectarian NI province will be viewed in the same light as East Germany and Biafra.
Rightyho.
Meanwhile, I hope you and your family make the most of your life.
Your right there, I can't see full Irish Independence for at least another 25 years at the earliest.
In your dreams will it be fully independent or actually dependent on an even bigger place than the UK ie Europe?
To be honest I wouldn't mind Ireland of 32 counties being a State within the United Republics of Europe. I would have European Federalist tendancies myself. End a bad Union created by Invasion, War, Slavery, Famine, Sectariansim, Murder, Colonisation, Rape of Culture & Lanuage with a good one. No problem being in the same Union as the Island to our East but seperate states in the same Europe.
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 12:10:12 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 12:03:45 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 11:08:16 PM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
Ireland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British. The President of the Republic of Ireland is also on record as stating that the two aren't mutually exclusive.
Even more confused than I thought. You are British,and fair play to ya. British people have a long ancestral trail on the Island of Ireland. Irish however,You are not.
A case of 'people who think like me got here before you so we're the real Irish'? Who was here before you? Talk about a dinasauric view of identity. I thought unionists were meant to be the backward lookers.
Most historians agree that the Vikings where the first Invasion that did not try to assimilate when they arrived, however they and the Old English figured it out after a generation or two, but from the Tudors on the visitors couldn't learn to behave properly in someone elses house.
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 12:10:12 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 12:03:45 AM
Quote from: Roger on September 29, 2009, 11:08:16 PM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
Ireland is a British isle whether you like it or not and you don't have to be born on the island of Great Britain to be British. The President of the Republic of Ireland is also on record as stating that the two aren't mutually exclusive.
Even more confused than I thought. You are British,and fair play to ya. British people have a long ancestral trail on the Island of Ireland. Irish however,You are not.
A case of 'people who think like me got here before you so we're the real Irish'? Who was here before you? Talk about a dinasauric view of identity. I thought unionists were meant to be the backward lookers.
Yes Roger Im backward looking. But you are confused.You call yourself Irish but British foremost.You also think you live on a British Island.Unless the wee statelet has been detatched from the rest of Ireland then you are wrong Sir.
Il tell ya who was here before me-My ancestors and their ancestors and their ancestors and their ancestors and their ancestors and their ancestors and their ancestors and I could keep going on.You however.
think its a case of 'he doth protest too much' !
poor old roger, sees the end of the union and his britishness going down the swannee in the next few years. :D
the whole london derry thing is a laugh.
Simple really, all the other counties were named after their main towns as mentioned before (Antrim, Dublin, Cork, Galway etc etc) and as they were going to rename the county to Derry, they (planters or whoever) just nipped in and stuck in the 'Londons' in front.
Interesting story of it being sold to the london company.
Anyhow the real name will revert back to Derry without the prefix soon enough! :)
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
The Good Friday Agreement is oft quoted in these parts.
It explicitly provides for what you describe as the brown stuff , should the person feel so inclined. I think you'll find about 1 million of these type of persons knocking about Northern Ireland.
This principle was accepted by the vast majority of Nationalist people in Northern Ireland at the time who presumably didn't find it all that confusing .
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 09:59:55 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
The Good Friday Agreement is oft quoted in these parts.
It explicitly provides for what you describe as the brown stuff , should the person feel so inclined. I think you'll find about 1 million of these type of persons knocking about Northern Ireland.
This principle was accepted by the vast majority of Nationalist people in Northern Ireland at the time who presumably didn't find it all that confusing .
Dress it up anyway you want but behind it all the Million? people you refer to are British. Irish people don't believe in the Union and don't want the Union.Simple.
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 09:59:55 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
The Good Friday Agreement is oft quoted in these parts.
It explicitly provides for what you describe as the brown stuff , should the person feel so inclined. I think you'll find about 1 million of these type of persons knocking about Northern Ireland.
This principle was accepted by the vast majority of Nationalist people in Northern Ireland at the time who presumably didn't find it all that confusing .
Dress it up anyway you want but behind it all the Million? people you refer to are British. Irish people don't believe in the Union and don't want the Union.Simple.
I'm not sure if that is just arrogance or plain old blinkered bigotry.
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 09:59:55 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
The Good Friday Agreement is oft quoted in these parts.
It explicitly provides for what you describe as the brown stuff , should the person feel so inclined. I think you'll find about 1 million of these type of persons knocking about Northern Ireland.
This principle was accepted by the vast majority of Nationalist people in Northern Ireland at the time who presumably didn't find it all that confusing .
Dress it up anyway you want but behind it all the Million? people you refer to are British. Irish people don't believe in the Union and don't want the Union.Simple.
It's not dressed up at all and no its not simple or else ths discussion wouldn't be taking place .It was
agreed that insofar as identity is concerned in Northern Ireland each and every person could identify themselves as Irish, British or both.
It is therefore incorrect to say that
all (my words) Irish people don't believe in the Union.
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 10:37:01 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 09:59:55 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
The Good Friday Agreement is oft quoted in these parts.
It explicitly provides for what you describe as the brown stuff , should the person feel so inclined. I think you'll find about 1 million of these type of persons knocking about Northern Ireland.
This principle was accepted by the vast majority of Nationalist people in Northern Ireland at the time who presumably didn't find it all that confusing .
Dress it up anyway you want but behind it all the Million? people you refer to are British. Irish people don't believe in the Union and don't want the Union.Simple.
I'm not sure if that is just arrogance or plain old blinkered bigotry.
I think going on your views on the Nelson thread,You would be the best judge if whats bigotry. Wise Up will ya,times have changed and the days of Double Standards can no longer be tolerated. Unionists cannot have their cake and eat it.
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 01:50:24 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 10:37:01 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 09:59:55 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
The Good Friday Agreement is oft quoted in these parts.
It explicitly provides for what you describe as the brown stuff , should the person feel so inclined. I think you'll find about 1 million of these type of persons knocking about Northern Ireland.
This principle was accepted by the vast majority of Nationalist people in Northern Ireland at the time who presumably didn't find it all that confusing .
Dress it up anyway you want but behind it all the Million? people you refer to are British. Irish people don't believe in the Union and don't want the Union.Simple.
I'm not sure if that is just arrogance or plain old blinkered bigotry.
I think going on your views on the Nelson thread,You would be the best judge if whats bigotry. Wise Up will ya,times have changed and the days of Double Standards can no longer be tolerated. Unionists cannot have their cake and eat it.
What do you mean by this?
If it refers to the ability of Unionists to legitimately refer to themselves as Irish and British those days are here .
Where did the Irish Isles thread dissapear to?
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 01:50:24 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 10:37:01 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 09:59:55 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
The Good Friday Agreement is oft quoted in these parts.
It explicitly provides for what you describe as the brown stuff , should the person feel so inclined. I think you'll find about 1 million of these type of persons knocking about Northern Ireland.
This principle was accepted by the vast majority of Nationalist people in Northern Ireland at the time who presumably didn't find it all that confusing .
Dress it up anyway you want but behind it all the Million? people you refer to are British. Irish people don't believe in the Union and don't want the Union.Simple.
I'm not sure if that is just arrogance or plain old blinkered bigotry.
I think going on your views on the Nelson thread,You would be the best judge if whats bigotry. Wise Up will ya,times have changed and the days of Double Standards can no longer be tolerated. Unionists cannot have their cake and eat it.
Sorry pal but you can't cling to some outdated inaccurate stereotype to bluster this away. Things have indeed moved on and only a complete bigot or fascist would come out with a view that says how people should think for them to be considered Irish.
Undeniably, a Klu Klux Klanner would have the right to consider themselves American.
Quote from: Main Street on September 30, 2009, 03:59:50 PM
Undeniably, a Klu Klux Klanner would have the right to consider themselves American.
Meaning?
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 04:14:06 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 30, 2009, 03:59:50 PM
Undeniably, a Klu Klux Klanner would have the right to consider themselves American.
Meaning?
It isn't all about you, I was more replying to
"if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost".Subjective opinions about a persons beliefs or culture don't diminish their right to a nationality, neither would subjective opinion about a persons Britishness conflicting with their claimed Irishness have any validity, imo.
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 02:10:21 PM
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 01:50:24 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 10:37:01 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 09:59:55 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
The Good Friday Agreement is oft quoted in these parts.
It explicitly provides for what you describe as the brown stuff , should the person feel so inclined. I think you'll find about 1 million of these type of persons knocking about Northern Ireland.
This principle was accepted by the vast majority of Nationalist people in Northern Ireland at the time who presumably didn't find it all that confusing .
Dress it up anyway you want but behind it all the Million? people you refer to are British. Irish people don't believe in the Union and don't want the Union.Simple.
I'm not sure if that is just arrogance or plain old blinkered bigotry.
I think going on your views on the Nelson thread,You would be the best judge if whats bigotry. Wise Up will ya,times have changed and the days of Double Standards can no longer be tolerated. Unionists cannot have their cake and eat it.
What do you mean by this?
If it refers to the ability of Unionists to legitimately refer to themselves as Irish and British those days are here .
Sorry I didnt actually mean that.I went off topic a bit in reference to the Nelson thread.I was referring to the fact that Nationalists/GAA are expected to bend over backwards to please Unionists/DUP/Sports Minister yet the same standards are not consistently expected from Unionists/Loyalists/Orange Order/Soccer clubs.
I have no problem with people calling themselves British and Irish,I just think it is a bit of a cop-out TBH.Maybe British and Northern Irish but not British and Irish.Thats my opinion.
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:55:31 AM
Quote from: Eoghan Mag on September 19, 2009, 12:43:24 AM
I think a lot of you are coming at this name thing from the wrong angle. Did any of you look to check up on where the name London comes from? It is from a Celtic God Lugh or Lughaidh Lamhfhada. Therefore if either Londonderry or Derry is used both are Celtic in origin and the Anglo-Saxons are all merely the subjects of the powerful Celts!! Next time someone insists on Londonderry throw this fact at them and watch 'em squirm! ;D
All over the British isles names derive from such origins. Shankill? Belfast? London? Don't think many squirm too much.
Where the f*ck are the British Isles?
Quote from: Eoghan Mag on September 30, 2009, 05:58:03 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 19, 2009, 12:55:31 AM
Quote from: Eoghan Mag on September 19, 2009, 12:43:24 AM
I think a lot of you are coming at this name thing from the wrong angle. Did any of you look to check up on where the name London comes from? It is from a Celtic God Lugh or Lughaidh Lamhfhada. Therefore if either Londonderry or Derry is used both are Celtic in origin and the Anglo-Saxons are all merely the subjects of the powerful Celts!! Next time someone insists on Londonderry throw this fact at them and watch 'em squirm! ;D
All over the British isles names derive from such origins. Shankill? Belfast? London? Don't think many squirm too much.
Where the f*ck are the British Isles?
Roger informed me last night that whether we like it or not,Ireland is part of the British Isles. :D :D :D :D :D
You can only laugh really.Deluded I think.
Quote from: Main Street on September 30, 2009, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 04:14:06 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 30, 2009, 03:59:50 PM
Undeniably, a Klu Klux Klanner would have the right to consider themselves American.
Meaning?
It isn't all about you, I was more replying to
"if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost".
Subjective opinions about a persons beliefs or culture don't diminish their right to a nationality,
Actually I believe Olaf and Roger can claim to be both British & Irish but based on the fact they where born in the United Kingdom or of recent British decent. But claiming to be British because of an Imperialist, colonial, outdated, ignorant, wrong label such as the British Isles is stupid, because Ireland has never been a in a group of Islands called the British Isles, even when it was the conqured by a foreign and cruel neighbour to become the Lordship of Ireland, the Kingdom of Ireland, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 05:44:18 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 02:10:21 PM
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 01:50:24 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 10:37:01 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 30, 2009, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 09:59:55 AM
Quote from: boojangles on September 29, 2009, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: Olaf on September 29, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on September 29, 2009, 10:14:25 PM
QuoteYou are of purest Gaelic blood?
I imagine not, who is? Whatever blood I have and whereever those ancestors came from, I now identify with Ireland and not the places they came from.
QuoteI am British first and foremost with the distinction of beng born in Ireland from a line of people born in Ireland dating back hundreds of years and am proud to be Irish.
Stop talking nonsense, if you are proud to be Irish then how could you be British first and foremost.
Because they are not mutually exclusive identities and you can therefore value one identity as having more significance to you than the other should you so wish.
Mutually exclusive identities-Such shite. Proud to be Irish but British first and foremost. Confused or what?
The Good Friday Agreement is oft quoted in these parts.
It explicitly provides for what you describe as the brown stuff , should the person feel so inclined. I think you'll find about 1 million of these type of persons knocking about Northern Ireland.
This principle was accepted by the vast majority of Nationalist people in Northern Ireland at the time who presumably didn't find it all that confusing .
Dress it up anyway you want but behind it all the Million? people you refer to are British. Irish people don't believe in the Union and don't want the Union.Simple.
I'm not sure if that is just arrogance or plain old blinkered bigotry.
I think going on your views on the Nelson thread,You would be the best judge if whats bigotry. Wise Up will ya,times have changed and the days of Double Standards can no longer be tolerated. Unionists cannot have their cake and eat it.
What do you mean by this?
If it refers to the ability of Unionists to legitimately refer to themselves as Irish and British those days are here .
I have no problem with people calling themselves British and Irish,I just think it is a bit of a cop-out TBH.Maybe British and Northern Irish but not British and Irish.Thats my opinion.
And frankly neither you nor anybody should . Whether
you think it is a cop-out is neither here nor there because it is a reality.
British and Northern Irish will do for me too.
Talking of reality I don't see the GAA "bending over backwards to please Unionists ". That's their choice and they can do or not do what they like. Its not for me or anyone else to tell them what to do. Doesn't mean non-Gaels can't hold an opinion on it or feel dis-inclined to join
Have you ever been to a match Olaf, what county are you from?
QuoteNo such place as the Republic of Ireland and no such title, she is the President of Ireland.
technically she's actually "Uachtarán na hÉireann "
Quote from: heganboy on September 30, 2009, 08:04:49 PM
QuoteNo such place as the Republic of Ireland and no such title, she is the President of Ireland.
technically she's actually "Uachtarán na hÉireann "
Sorry what did that mean again? ::)
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 30, 2009, 07:21:44 PM
Have you ever been to a match Olaf, what county are you from?
He is from Belfast. It's not a county even though the county should take the name from the main town according to some.
It's ironic that in Lynchboy's theory on towns and counties that is only actually taken up by the Orange Order, they have a Belfast County :D
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 09:01:07 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 30, 2009, 07:21:44 PM
Have you ever been to a match Olaf, what county are you from?
He is from Belfast. It's not a county even though the county should take the name from the main town according to some.
It's ironic that in Lynchboy's theory on towns and counties that is only actually taken up by the Orange Order, they have a Belfast County :D
prob because Antrim was the main town first?
thats a guess, but look at the rest of the country - its not irony - its reality ....you seem to keep getting mixed up with both !
however I also believe that woger et all are perfectly entitled to be both british and Irish.
it wont mean a jot though come reunification time when the Britich gov sell back the six counties (though when I say sell, the british gov will pay to get rid of them !! :D)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on September 30, 2009, 10:16:23 PM
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 09:01:07 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 30, 2009, 07:21:44 PM
Have you ever been to a match Olaf, what county are you from?
He is from Belfast. It's not a county even though the county should take the name from the main town according to some.
It's ironic that in Lynchboy's theory on towns and counties that is only actually taken up by the Orange Order, they have a Belfast County :D
prob because Antrim was the main town first?
Like Coleraine?
Quoteit wont mean a jot though come reunification time when the Britich gov sell back the six counties (though when I say sell, the british gov will pay to get rid of them !! :D)
From the guy who pathetically tried to reassure unionists about the reality of his fantasy island and continues to bulldoze and abuse anyone who disgrees agrees with him, it's a complete joke. Enjoy you life of torment, rage and aggitation. Bye.
You got a point there Roger, I'm from County Mayo, not County Castlebar :D
Quote from: Roger on September 30, 2009, 09:01:07 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on September 30, 2009, 07:21:44 PM
Have you ever been to a match Olaf, what county are you from?
He is from Belfast. It's not a county even though the county should take the name from the main town according to some.
It's ironic that in Lynchboy's theory on towns and counties that is only actually taken up by the Orange Order, they have a Belfast County :D
Roger what county are you from?
i can see why Olaf and Roger wouldnt be so forthcoming as to where they are from.
They are from Antrim afterall,
who wants to advertise that fact now? ;)
Quote from: Olaf on September 30, 2009, 07:19:59 PM
That's their choice and they can do or not do what they like. Its not for me or anyone else to tell them what to do. Doesn't mean non-Gaels can't hold an opinion on it or feel dis-inclined to join
Finally a bit of straight talking.Alot of people could do with remembering that.The GAA should not be made feel ashamed about any of its actions or aims.The GAA is what it is.It is what it is because of the contributions and work of like-minded Irish people who wanted to keep the massively important Gaelic culture and past times alive, despite the attempts from outside influences. The GAA has and will continue to move with the times but only when we, as members are ready and not when Nelson McCausland or any other Non-Member thinks we should. These same people wouldn't join the GAA if we re-named Croke Park, Sir Ian Paisley Park and re-named the Kevin Lynchs club in Derry, QE2 Rovers in attempts to bend over backwards, so whats the point?
I see that the BBC has completely dropped the use of the word DERRY unless it is Derry city council they happen to mention. Obviously there has been a policy change at high level so that L'derry is the named forced upon us. This really does put me off watching BBC newsline. Why can't they just use Derry and leave it at that.
Quote from: Hereiam on March 01, 2010, 09:58:45 AM
I see that the BBC has completly dropped the use of the word DERRY unless it is Derry city council they happen to mention. Obsouly there has been a policy change at high level so that L'derry is the named forced upon us. This really does put me off watching BBC newsline. Why can't they just use Derry and levae it at that.
Where'd you hear that?
Ziggy the name Derry is never used by the Beeb in there news reports. Just look at the Foyle & west section of the website, Derry is not to be seen. They use it in the little GAA coverage that they have but other than that its London all the way
I remember reading somewhere a while back that the official policy when talking about it on the BBC was to say L'derry first, then call it Derry in the next mention, then it was the reporters choice after that.
That bitch Jackie McCann (weathergirl from Cavan) refuses to say Derry - does my nut in! >:(
Shes a complete retard anyway, makes a hash of the weather every day. Worth watching for its only ever 2 seconds away from car crash tv.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 01, 2010, 12:11:35 PM
That bitch Jackie McCann (weathergirl from Cavan) refuses to say Derry - does my nut in! >:(
She's from where??
Jackie makes me go weak at the knees. Then again, that could be caused by my disability...
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 01, 2010, 12:11:35 PM
That bitch Jackie McCann (weathergirl from Cavan) refuses to say Derry - does my nut in! >:(
Her husband is a regular reader of the Board.
As haranguerer says the policy is that it's L'derry first and then the choice of the person after that. If there's been a change of policy then it should be easy to find out with a FOI request.
God she has one annoying voice. Even the wife can't stand her. We come to the conclusion that she must be shagging someone high up to have that job.
Jesus she started at the BBC in the Irish language unit!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/irish/video_audio/player/816/english/
Come on Jackie at least be balanced in your usage of the name.
Quote from: Ulick on March 01, 2010, 12:35:35 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 01, 2010, 12:11:35 PM
That bitch Jackie McCann (weathergirl from Cavan) refuses to say Derry - does my nut in! >:(
Her husband is a regular reader of the Board.
As haranguerer says the policy is that it's L'derry first and then the choice of the person after that. If there's been a change of policy then it should be easy to find out with a FOI request.
I hope he keeps a tight eye on her - shes doing something to still have her job... :P
I'd say hes been dreading her being brought up on here so...
If you listen to that clip, she actually sounds better speaking in her native tongue.
Quote from: haranguerer on March 01, 2010, 01:20:50 PM
I'd say hes been dreading her being brought up on here so...
He's probably used to it with Ziggy's fantasies an all...
Quote from: Hereiam on March 01, 2010, 12:37:27 PM
God she has one annoying voice. Even the wife can't stand her. We come to the conclusion that she must be shagging someone high up to have that job.
you might consider deleting that quote, its way out of order
Quote from: haranguerer on March 01, 2010, 11:03:45 AM
I remember reading somewhere a while back that the official policy when talking about it on the BBC was to say L'derry first, then call it Derry in the next mention, then it was the reporters choice after that.
Bit like Transtink's 'Maiden City Flyer' ... it has a flashing sign that alternates between the Hun and Fenian names of the City of Culture ( :D) so as not to annoy the customers
They have started alternating it at Gt Victoria St train station but, much to another member's chagrin, it's still London Derry all the way round the corner on the buses..
Quote from: haranguerer on March 01, 2010, 11:03:45 AM
I remember reading somewhere a while back that the official policy when talking about it on the BBC was to say L'derry first, then call it Derry in the next mention, then it was the reporters choice after that.
Thats what I was told when I sent in an complaint to the BBC about the lovely Angie Phillips. If you notice she will mention Tyrone, Fermanagh, Down etc twice on a regular basis , But with Derry its the L word first , followed by the " North West of the Province the second time
I have noticed Cecilia Daly at the same craic recently too
The INDO have referred to Derry as Londonderry!
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/bomb-found-under-soldiers-car-2283336.html (http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/bomb-found-under-soldiers-car-2283336.html)
Press Association article - clearly the lazy bastards didn't bother reading it through before running it.
Lads, some out of order comments there about Jackie McCann. Can you please delete. Yez all have little to be complaining about.
So what if she says Londonderry on the news?
Quote from: ziggysego on August 04, 2010, 05:14:55 PM
The INDO have referred to Derry as Londonderry!
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/bomb-found-under-soldiers-car-2283336.html (http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/bomb-found-under-soldiers-car-2283336.html)
The Indo is a rag. They withdrew their reporters from Northern Ireland when the trouble died down. Says it all really. One step down from the Daily Mail as far as I'm concerned.
Here we gooooo again.....
"A proposal by Sinn Féin to change the official name of Londonderry to Derry has been described as "sectarian" by unionists.
A motion supporting the name change was passed at a meeting of Derry City and Strabane District Council on Thursday.
Council will now write to the Environment Minister to seek clarification on how to go about the change.
All previous attempts for the name change have failed.
The London prefix was added to Derry when the city was granted a Royal Charter by King James I in 1613.
In 1984 the name of the nationalist-controlled council was changed from Londonderry to Derry City Council, but the city itself continues to be officially known as Londonderry.
The issue was addressed in the High Court in 2007 when the judge ruled that only legislation or Royal prerogative could change the city's name. "
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 24, 2015, 09:48:56 AM
Here we gooooo again.....
"A proposal by Sinn Féin to change the official name of Londonderry to Derry has been described as "sectarian" by unionists.
A motion supporting the name change was passed at a meeting of Derry City and Strabane District Council on Thursday.
Council will now write to the Environment Minister to seek clarification on how to go about the change.
All previous attempts for the name change have failed.
The London prefix was added to Derry when the city was granted a Royal Charter by King James I in 1613.
In 1984 the name of the nationalist-controlled council was changed from Londonderry to Derry City Council, but the city itself continues to be officially known as Londonderry.
The issue was addressed in the High Court in 2007 when the judge ruled that only legislation or Royal prerogative could change the city's name. "
As the council cant legally change the name the proposal can only be to distract the easily distracted from the upcoming implementation of the "Tory" cuts.
Does anyone from the free state (beside LaoisLad) call it Londonderry?
Quote from: Orior on July 24, 2015, 11:10:27 AM
Does anyone from the free state (beside LaoisLad) call it Londonderry?
Nope. . . Nobody from the North calls it that either. Unless they're a ****!
Oh there ain't no London in Tyrone ;D
Quote from: screenexile on July 24, 2015, 12:23:05 PM
Quote from: Orior on July 24, 2015, 11:10:27 AM
Does anyone from the free state (beside LaoisLad) call it Londonderry?
Nope. . . Nobody from the North calls it that either. Unless they're a ****!
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on July 24, 2015, 12:39:43 PM
Oh there ain't no London in Tyrone ;D
QED
Derry, Londonderry, it doesn't really matter. Much better than that Derry-Londonderry crap that some people have adopted in recent years.
Quote from: ziggysego on July 24, 2015, 01:12:54 PM
Derry, Londonderry, it doesn't really matter. Much better than that Derry-Londonderry crap that some people have adopted in recent years.
Ah you Tyronies don't understand our persecution throughout the world!!! It does matter and I wouldn't be a bigtime Republican or anything but it's nearly the most horrible word I can hear.
When you hear somebody nearly overemphasise the London bit you know they are doing it to rub your nose in it. To be fair when the inbreds over the Sperrins do it I don't get annoyed really because underneath it all they know and wouldn't say Londonderry to anybody else. But when you hear a Unionist head in work or on the other end of the phone spout Londonderry it really gets to me!!
Quote from: screenexile on July 24, 2015, 01:35:26 PMAh you Tyronies don't understand our persecution throughout the world!!!
Aren't you Canadian? ;D
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on July 24, 2015, 02:05:10 PM
Quote from: screenexile on July 24, 2015, 01:35:26 PMAh you Tyronies don't understand our persecution throughout the world!!!
Aren't you Canadian? ;D
Dual Citizenship!!
Are you not away to the golf yet??!!
Tomorrow
I'll be in sunny Ardboe next week
Jesus you spent 20 odd years trying to leave Tyrone and now you want to come back?!!
Quote from: Orior on July 24, 2015, 11:10:27 AM
Does anyone from the free state (beside LaoisLad) call it Londonderry?
Alan shatter called it Londonderry in the Dáil a couple of years ago.
It's always naturally Derry to me and anyone I know. If I said to someone in Mayo I'm heading up to LondonDerry on the weekend - I get some quare looks! They'd tell me I was watching to much UTV and cop meself on!
While there's more pressing issues right now I definitly support the council in this. Some of the quotes from unionist councillors are hilarious. One said that the city was built by stonemasons from London. No stonemasons from London built a small walled city that's no bigger than most villages using rubble from the previous seetlement (Doire) that they destroyed. While it won't be successful it's good that they show opposition to that slavename.
I have quite a few protestant friends and I have yet to hear any of them call it Londonderry. It's only the real bitter fcukers that call it that with emphasis on the London.....
Quote from: screenexile on July 24, 2015, 01:35:26 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 24, 2015, 01:12:54 PM
Derry, Londonderry, it doesn't really matter. Much better than that Derry-Londonderry crap that some people have adopted in recent years.
Ah you Tyronies don't understand our persecution throughout the world!!! It does matter and I wouldn't be a bigtime Republican or anything but it's nearly the most horrible word I can hear.
When you hear somebody nearly overemphasise the London bit you know they are doing it to rub your nose in it. To be fair when the inbreds over the Sperrins do it I don't get annoyed really because underneath it all they know and wouldn't say Londonderry to anybody else. But when you hear a Unionist head in work or on the other end of the phone spout Londonderry it really gets to me!!
Was Ballinascreen renamed Draperstown around the same time?
Quote from: Orior on July 24, 2015, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: screenexile on July 24, 2015, 01:35:26 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 24, 2015, 01:12:54 PM
Derry, Londonderry, it doesn't really matter. Much better than that Derry-Londonderry crap that some people have adopted in recent years.
Ah you Tyronies don't understand our persecution throughout the world!!! It does matter and I wouldn't be a bigtime Republican or anything but it's nearly the most horrible word I can hear.
When you hear somebody nearly overemphasise the London bit you know they are doing it to rub your nose in it. To be fair when the inbreds over the Sperrins do it I don't get annoyed really because underneath it all they know and wouldn't say Londonderry to anybody else. But when you hear a Unionist head in work or on the other end of the phone spout Londonderry it really gets to me!!
Was Ballinascreen renamed Draperstown around the same time?
Nope Londonderry predates Draperstown by 200 odd years!!!
Another strange one but Draperstown would be more widely accepted as the name of the town. Although in GAA circles calling Ballinascreen Draperstown is akin to the Tyronies saying Londonderry... if you do it you're a ****!!
As a Derry City man born and bred I have to say I've never heard a local person Protestant or catholic use Londonderry. Maybe it's because I alwAys meet Protestants in a situation where they are in the minority, but I've genuinely never heard them say Londonderry. The only time I've heard it in workplace was from a Protestant Belfast lad and an east donegal Protestant lady whilst talking on phone to customers etc
I predict a riot.
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 24, 2015, 04:22:03 PM
As a Derry City man born and bred I have to say I've never heard a local person Protestant or catholic use Londonderry. Maybe it's because I alwAys meet Protestants in a situation where they are in the minority, but I've genuinely never heard them say Londonderry. The only time I've heard it in workplace was from a Protestant Belfast lad and an east donegal Protestant lady whilst talking on phone to customers etc
I've heard Catholics use it, albeit in an official context. Clients have called in the past and you know fine rightly they're Catholic but for some reason use the L word. My family would have always used/still use Co Derry for their address.
Quote from: Orior on July 24, 2015, 11:10:27 AM
Does anyone from the free state (beside LaoisLad) call it Londonderry?
The irony!
Same argument with Good Friday Agreement (Nationalists) Belfast Agreement (Unionists). Never change
Quote from: T Fearon on July 24, 2015, 09:07:09 PM
Same argument with Good Friday Agreement (Nationalists) Belfast Agreement (Unionists). Never change
WTF is that about anyway?
This Derry name confusion doesn't only apply to the North West corner of County Londonderry, In the South East Corner of said County Ballinderry Shamrocks make up a large portion of their team with Tyrone based players (obviously to achieve an unfair advantage over their rivals). They should probably change their name to Ballin/London/derry/Tyrone Shamrocks to be more accurate.
Can't agree on anything,names flags etc.It is quite amusing when unionists/Protestants in conversation with one,always refer to Derry,and the feeling is palpable that they don't want to cause any offence (in my case I am unmoved by place names or flags),and local broadcasters have written policies to alternate references between Derry/Londonderry.
The late Gerry Anderson, a native of the place, coined the name Stroke City, not only brilliantly witty but highlighting the absurdity of such mundane issues.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 24, 2015, 09:07:09 PM
Same argument with Good Friday Agreement (Nationalists) Belfast Agreement (Unionists). Never change
Is it not officially called The Agreement?
Good Friday Agreement by nationalists Belfast Agreement by Unionists mostly because they do not want to debase the name of an important day in the Religious Calendar.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 24, 2015, 11:40:42 PM
Good Friday Agreement by nationalists Belfast Agreement by Unionists mostly because they do not want to debase the name of an important day in the Religious Calendar.
It's called The Agreement though
Quote from: Orior on July 24, 2015, 11:10:27 AM
Does anyone from the free state (beside LaoisLad) call it Londonderry?
Londonderek Mooney.
Quote from: ziggysego on July 24, 2015, 01:12:54 PM
Derry, Londonderry, it doesn't really matter. Much better than that Derry-Londonderry crap that some people have adopted in recent years.
Yer correct there. It has become the norm in the city recently.
What is feckin worse is...... 'Legenderry'.
But if unionists people want to call it Londonderry, I have no problem with that as it is what they were brought up to call it. By the sounds of it , a lot of ye take huge offence to it. I don't see why.
Its called f**king Derry, end of, IMO we should start calling London Derrylondon for the laugh
Quote from: theticklemister on July 25, 2015, 01:31:56 AM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 24, 2015, 01:12:54 PM
Derry, Londonderry, it doesn't really matter. Much better than that Derry-Londonderry crap that some people have adopted in recent years.
Yer correct there. It has become the norm in the city recently.
What is feckin worse is...... 'Legenderry'.
But if unionists people want to call it Londonderry, I have no problem with that as it is what they were brought up to call it. By the sounds of it , a lot of ye take huge offence to it. I don't see why.
I completely agree with you two gentlemen, at the end of the day who cares. I know people that call it Londonderry and that's fine if thats what they call it. If they where brought up to call it that, what can they do about it, why should they change and why would you take offence at it? If they are using it to rile people up, then there is one way to ensure that they will continue to use it, and that is get riled at them. And in any case for the listener it is impossible to tell which of the two types the speaker is, so its best to just let them tear away.
Just remembered I was in India a few years ago and came upon this brand of confectionery
(http://pitchonnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/london-dairy-vs-derry.jpg)
I nearly bust my sides laughing. I tried explaining it to a restaurant owner, realising how stupid the whole thing must have sounded half way through. He was polite tho, and let me know that Indians could keep us all happy by telling me "We also have Dairy Milk if you like"
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 25, 2015, 04:00:22 AM
Just remembered I was in India a few years ago and came upon this brand of confectionery
(http://pitchonnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/london-dairy-vs-derry.jpg)
I nearly bust my sides laughing. I tried explaining it to a restaurant owner, realising how stupid the whole thing must have sounded half way through. He was polite tho, and let me know that Indians could keep us all happy by telling me "We also have Dairy Milk if you like"
Definitely this has all the hallmarks of a Tyronie!!!!!!!!
If the peope of the city want it called Derry then it should be officially called Derry
If the people of the county want it called Derry then it should be officially be called Derry.
The rules don't make it straight forward but there is nothing to stop the legislators enacting the required legislation.
In the mean time most people get on with saying Derry and not getting too fussed when officialdom uses Londonderry as it is the current offical name.
It would be good to get it sorted but there are many more important things to worry about and only a fool would get distracted from those by this
Quote from: LCohen on July 25, 2015, 10:41:09 AM
If the peope of the city want it called Derry then it should be officially called Derry
If the people of the county want it called Derry then it should be officially be called Derry.
The rules don't make it straight forward but there is nothing to stop the legislators enacting the required legislation.
In the mean time most people get on with saying Derry and not getting too fussed when officialdom uses Londonderry as it is the current offical name.
It would be good to get it sorted but there are many more important things to worry about and only a fool would get distracted from those by this
When the name change becomes official you will see a few bitter bastard civil servants refusing to acknowledge the name change!
Couldn't really care what others choose to call it, but drives me up the wall when somebody corrects me by telling me 'it's Londonderry by the way'.
All logic on this for me goes out the window. Personally I absolutely despise the L word. I needn't say I don't give a shit about anyone using it because I do. It annoys the feck out of me.
QuoteCouldn't really care what others choose to call it, but drives me up the wall when somebody corrects me by telling me 'it's Londonderry by the way'.
I've worked with people from every Loyalist area of Belfast and roundabout for years and never has anyone attempted to correct me for saying Derry.
"Ah no excuse me there screenexile I think you'll find it's called Londonderry!"
"Oh no actually I think you'll find you should just go f**k yourself!"
That's how the conversation would go should someone ever correct me on it... I'd love to know the type of person who would actually do that!!
Quote from: screenexile on July 26, 2015, 12:23:14 AM
"Ah no excuse me there screenexile I think you'll find it's called Londonderry!"
"Oh no actually I think you'll find you should just go f**k yourself!"
That's how the conversation would go should someone ever correct me on it... I'd love to know the type of person who would actually do that!!
Lets meet after the next Tyrone v L/Derry match in Omagh Screenexile.
Where we can share a few pints and sing "theres no London in Tyrone"
After all we are still northern gaels who support each others county when we get to croke park.
Am I right or what?
My mother like the majority of her/my family grew up and lived in the fountain. It always has been and always will be Derry to us.
I was born in Londonderry
I was born in Derry City too
Oh what a special child
To see such things and still to smile
I knew that there was something wrong
But I kept my head down and carried on
I grew up in Enniskillen
I grew up in Innis Kathleen too
Oh what a clever boy
To watch your hometown be destroyed
I knew that I would not stay long
So I kept my head down and carried on
Who cares where national borders lie?
Who cares whose laws you're governed by?
Who cares what name you call a town?
Who'll care when you're six feet beneath the ground?
From the corner of my eye
A hint of blue in the black sky
A ray of hope, a beam of light
An end to thirty years of night
The church-bells ring, the children sing
"What is this strange and beautiful thing?"
It's the sunrise
Can you see the sunrise?
I can see the sunrise
It's the sunrising
To be honest i heard it more than Tyrone supporters than any protestant
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on July 26, 2015, 08:07:05 PM
To be honest i heard it more than Tyrone supporters than any protestant
To be fair, when any protestant says it, we can't be sure if it is because they believe it or are they trying to cause offence.
When Tyrone supporters say it, is it to cause offence? or let you know that their is a UK based competition, which by name you can enter and probably win, rather than the all Ireland championship, which you struggle with at the early stages at best.
Alas we cannot enter the UK competition as "There's no London in Tyrone".
Quote from: Hospital Road on July 27, 2015, 10:11:33 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on July 26, 2015, 08:07:05 PM
To be honest i heard it more than Tyrone supporters than any protestant
what about protestant tyrone supporters?
Are they from Strabane?
Lets see how many times Derry is said on the bbc now
Quote from: Hereiam on July 27, 2015, 08:06:30 PM
Lets see how many times Derry is said on the bbc now
(http://www.burysports.co.uk/79-113-thickbox/hand-held-clicker-metal-tally-counter.jpg)