The Old Derry / Londonderry name problem

[firstsub]

my take on it, is that the county system was imposed by the english, and that there never was a Co. derry as we know it. in fact the part of derry city on the west of the river was actually in donegal, but had to be included in NI on the behest of the unionists due to historical reasons. Strange given that the north and south of derry, as we know it now, was very much pro united irishmen. A quick run through of those men would include John Mitchel, Watty Graham. Prominent Presbyterians at that that time

[Eoghan Mag]

I think a lot of you are coming at this name thing from the wrong angle. Did any of you look to check up on where the name London comes from? It is from a Celtic God Lugh or Lughaidh Lamhfhada. Therefore if either Londonderry or Derry is used both are Celtic in origin and the Anglo-Saxons are all merely the subjects of the powerful Celts!! Next time someone insists on Londonderry throw this fact at them and watch 'em squirm! 

[Roger]

Leaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry.  Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.

From what do you make out what you make out, i.e., which reputable sources?

And apologies for my 'manners' --  perhaps I'm over-sensitised to loyalist versions of non-history.

There never was a Colmcille County, but there most certainly was a Doire Colmcille on the site of the current city of Derry, roughly. And I'm not wrong either when I assert that the whole area of the now County Derry came under the territory of Eoghan Ó Néill, i.e., Tír Eoghain, before the Saxons imposed their divisions of rule.

I'm not disagreeing about the existence of Doire / Doire Colmcille.  I'm just saying that the city wasn't 'renamed' it was built from new, named from new and studies of it suggest it was built in a different location even on the other side of the Foyle which wasn't an insignificant distance away in those days from the location of the destroyed town.  I agree about there never being a County Colmcille but I'll await Lynchboy's explanation on this strange new line of argument.  Personally I don't care what the county is called.  Counties are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.  As for the city well I'm not fussed on the place and Ziggy's suggestion earlier in the thread would be as appropriate to me as any.  However, claiming that it is simply changing the name back to the original by dropping "London" from either city or county is a red herring more likely simply to disguise an underlying sectarian motivation. That's fine by me too, but people should be honest about it.  As has been shown in this thread there would have been many unionists happy enough to call the city or county the shortened version simply for ease of speech. This was the same in 1911 and I believe to this date.  However, the campaign for renaming the city is sectarian for many people and therefore resisted in kind.

[firstsub]

If there is to be a bit of give and take, I'm quite prepared to acknowledge the part within the walls as Londonderry and the rest of the city and county to be officially recognised as Derry.

[Roger]

my take on it, is that the county system was imposed by the english, and that there never was a Co. derry as we know it. in fact the part of derry city on the west of the river was actually in donegal, but had to be included in NI on the behest of the unionists due to historical reasons. Strange given that the north and south of derry, as we know it now, was very much pro united irishmen. A quick run through of those men would include John Mitchel, Watty Graham. Prominent Presbyterians at that that time

Do you mean the west bank was included in the county or within NI for historical reasons at unionists' behest?  The city was always in the county afaik.

[Roger]

I think a lot of you are coming at this name thing from the wrong angle. Did any of you look to check up on where the name London comes from? It is from a Celtic God Lugh or Lughaidh Lamhfhada. Therefore if either Londonderry or Derry is used both are Celtic in origin and the Anglo-Saxons are all merely the subjects of the powerful Celts!! Next time someone insists on Londonderry throw this fact at them and watch 'em squirm! 

All over the British isles names derive from such origins.  Shankill? Belfast? London? Don't think many squirm too much.

[Roger]

If there is to be a bit of give and take, I'm quite prepared to acknowledge the part within the walls as Londonderry and the rest of the city and county to be officially recognised as Derry.

I don't understand the fixation with counties.  Apart from GAA and a Westminister constituency there doesn't appear to be any reason to actually refer too much to the county name.  The Gaels do their own thing about that and no one gives a toss either way.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Fair enough Roger, this isn't black and white any more than history itself is riddled with shades of the faintest and most obscure greys, and with Irish history those greys are particularly dappled.

You won't like me for saying this, but I see this Derry/Londonderry saga as a metaphor for the crumpled and crumbling embers of the death of empire. You'll have divergent, possibly diametrically opposed, views on that. Such is what empires are good at: planting divisive issues that will rankle with both the indigenous and the newly arrived (though I believe all on this island to be well and truly indigenous at this stage, would that the political masters could concede same) for centuries and millenia to come. Such is the lifeblood (or death) of their presence where they've no right to be, and you won't agree with that either 

[ziggysego]

If there is to be a bit of give and take, I'm quite prepared to acknowledge the part within the walls as Londonderry and the rest of the city and county to be officially recognised as Derry.

I don't understand the fixation with counties.  Apart from GAA and a Westminister constituency there doesn't appear to be any reason to actually refer too much to the county name.  The Gaels do their own thing about that and no one gives a toss either way.

Don't the Orange Order orangise and/or recongise county Borders too?

[Roger]

Fair enough Roger, this isn't black and white any more than history itself is riddled with shades of the faintest and most obscure greys, and with Irish history those greys are particularly dappled.

You won't like me for saying this, but I see this Derry/Londonderry saga as a metaphor for the crumpled and crumbling embers of the death of empire. You'll have divergent, possibly diametrically opposed, views on that. Such is what empires are good at: planting divisive issues that will rankle with both the indigenous and the newly arrived (though I believe all on this island to be well and truly indigenous at this stage, would that the political masters could concede same) for centuries and millenia to come. Such is the lifeblood (or death) of their presence where they've no right to be, and you won't agree with that either 

Fair enough but that is not the stated view from those campaigning.  It all seems to be about changing the name back to what it was before.  Same with "Reunification" of the island.  It just sounds nicer but also inaccurate.

Your argument would also mean that counties should be abolished. Might suit some people better in their quest to play at Croke Park.

[Roger]

If there is to be a bit of give and take, I'm quite prepared to acknowledge the part within the walls as Londonderry and the rest of the city and county to be officially recognised as Derry.

I don't understand the fixation with counties.  Apart from GAA and a Westminister constituency there doesn't appear to be any reason to actually refer too much to the county name.  The Gaels do their own thing about that and no one gives a toss either way.

Don't the Orange Order orangise and/or recongise county Borders too?

Fair point,  I think they do but then again they also seem to have a County Belfast too whilst their mates in the Apprentice Boys have no bother being from Derry.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Your argument would also mean that counties should be abolished. Might suit some people better in their quest to play at Croke Park.

Not necessarily, and this is where the dappled and mottled shades of grey come into play.

I think the county boundaries, as they are currently defined, and as bequeathed by Whitehall in her boundless munificence (thanks Britain), do just fine. Admittedly, that's from more of a cultural/sporting perspective than a political one, but what the heck, anything to get one over on those b*stards next door(s) 

It ain't the lines that are the problem, but those who have drawn them.

[Roger]

Your argument would also mean that counties should be abolished. Might suit some people better in their quest to play at Croke Park.

Not necessarily, and this is where the dappled and mottled shades of grey come into play.

I think the county boundaries, as they are currently defined, and as bequeathed by Whitehall in her boundless munificence (thanks Britain), do just fine. Admittedly, that's from more of a cultural/sporting perspective than a political one, but what the heck, anything to get one over on those b*stards next door(s) 

It ain't the lines that are the problem, but those who have drawn them.

It isn't the name, it is simply who named it and the relationship with where they are from then?

[lynchbhoy]

Leaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry.  Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.

From what do you make out what you make out, i.e., which reputable sources?

And apologies for my 'manners' --  perhaps I'm over-sensitised to loyalist versions of non-history.

There never was a Colmcille County, but there most certainly was a Doire Colmcille on the site of the current city of Derry, roughly. And I'm not wrong either when I assert that the whole area of the now County Derry came under the territory of Eoghan Ó Néill, i.e., Tír Eoghain, before the Saxons imposed their divisions of rule.

I'm not disagreeing about the existence of Doire / Doire Colmcille.  I'm just saying that the city wasn't 'renamed' it was built from new, named from new and studies of it suggest it was built in a different location even on the other side of the Foyle which wasn't an insignificant distance away in those days from the location of the destroyed town.  I agree about there never being a County Colmcille but I'll await Lynchboy's explanation on this strange new line of argument.  Personally I don't care what the county is called.  Counties are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.  As for the city well I'm not fussed on the place and Ziggy's suggestion earlier in the thread would be as appropriate to me as any.  However, claiming that it is simply changing the name back to the original by dropping "London" from either city or county is a red herring more likely simply to disguise an underlying sectarian motivation. That's fine by me too, but people should be honest about it.  As has been shown in this thread there would have been many unionists happy enough to call the city or county the shortened version simply for ease of speech. This was the same in 1911 and I believe to this date.  However, the campaign for renaming the city is sectarian for many people and therefore resisted in kind.

woger, in your haste to 'prove the fenian wrong' you have overshot the runway again.
the current county boundary lines did not exist back in time when the hinterland of colcille
existed.
It predated most others. The area from what I recall from history classes stretched from and
including that is now in north county Donegal and up as far as the giants causeway.

I think this was in existence prior to the reign of Eoghan.
Lands owned then were attributed to their owners - hence Tir Eoghan - Tyrone and
Tir Chonaill (which is the old Irish name for Donegal, before it was renamed Dun na Ngall
- or land/fort of the foreigners). Tir is Irish for 'Land'.

So this land region known as Colmcilles country, was bigger than the current county Derry and took in some of what
is now Antrim, Donegal and Tyrone.
Both Tir Eoghan and Tir Chonaill took their claim on adjacent land.

The way land was divied up or owned predates your 'counties' and therefore your understanding
of this.So I can appreciate why you jumped to your conclusion. I never said there was a 'county colmcille'
in the same sense that you know counties.
I did say that there 'could' be a name change back into county colmcille and Colmcille city.
(btw this nonsense that londonderry isnt the same as the old Colmcille/Derry city is revisionist rubbish and more
hans christian anderson stuff from unionist/loyalists to try and again rewrite history to
make more excuses for themselves - I cringe for you all when yourself and one or twoothers on here have tried to
peddle that lie and line).

The county coleraine seems to be a much smaller land region. So doesnt actually properly
map onto a 'county Derry'.
I cannot see either community voting for my preference of a 'county Colmcille' so the
result is undoubtedly going to be Derry city and county Derry.

as for your scorn on reunification - I would have thought the island of Ireland was ran by its
localised chiefs and kinds etc as the one until cromwell etc.
again thie might not be how you understand modern day republics of monachist states, but
like other countries such as France and Germany this was the norm !

you are making yourself look sillier by the post with this bitter stuff.
Oh but you dont care really....not true judging by your many posts and vitrol on the subjects !

[deiseach]

I don't understand the fixation with counties.  Apart from GAA and a Westminister constituency there doesn't appear to be any reason to actually refer too much to the county name.  The Gaels do their own thing about that and no one gives a toss either way.

The fixation with the counties is almost entirely down to the GAA. I must confess to liking the whole tribalism associated with the counties. Mrs d admits to being envious of that granite sense of place that many Irish people associate with the counties.