The Old Derry / Londonderry name problem

[Roger]

Why not just put it to a vote now Roger then. If more people who actually live there we'll call it Derry if not then I'll even call it LondonDerry....Same old Unionist rhetoric the same as happened with the maze stadium..If the NI team/ Linfield don't like we'll stop it all happening .Don't like change...don't give a inch...Sick listening to it....there has to be give and take on both sides!

Its not all one way this peace process lads.

It was put to the vote in 1998.  The process is clear.  You just can't cry 'equality' or 'parity of esteem' when it doesn't suit and then go into an anti-unionist (plus out of nowhere Linfield and Maze) outburst when it does. It's not all one way this process. At least be consistent. Suck it up.

Exactly Roger its not all a one way process...it works both ways...Now just a example..I watched a debate in stormont the other night which happened to go on for about 8 hrs...But the whole jist of the whole debate centered around the notion that a nationalist can't be the new justice minister! Why because if they do then it wont have cross community support. So sinn Fein are going to allow this but the SDLP are up in arms. ( because sinn fein recognise that if they went for justice minister it would be up roar, so stood down)


Now do you think if the same situation was put to any unionist parties would they do the same?

I wouldn't have a problem with a nationalist being minister.  I would have a problem if SF had the ministry though. 

[Roger]

Do you live there? This is highly Political and nothing to do with changing a name back or ease of speaking or however it is dressed up for disguising partisan and narrow minded parochial and anti-British sentiment.  As I am constantly reminded on this board, by you included, those days of sectarianism and showing who is boss are gone and anyone who thinks like that is a dinasaur and neanderthal.  You fall into your own category of contempt.

What does it matter where I live? It's a town in my country just like Cobh, Dún Laoghaire or Craigavon for that matter and as a republican and anti-colonialist, I'm naturally going to reassert my country's sovereignty by ridding it of reminders of an unpleasant past.

But aside from that, the problem here is the unionist refusal to accept the reality of that past and accept that if you want to get on with your neighbours you should show them a little respect. Wheeling out the name of that town at every opportunity is as insulting to your neighbours as painting "Dirty Fenian cnuts, know your place!" across their back fence. Sometimes the respectful thing to do if your neighbour infringes a little on your space, is to say nothing and keep your domineering tendencies to yourself - particularly if that senile oul b**tard of a grandfather of yours burnt the neighbours house to the ground.

Where is the 'mentalist' smiley on this board???

[Roger]

Fair enough, thanks.

No worries. 

Since there has been no unfavourable plebiscite that you talk about, do you accept that Northern Ireland exists, is not part of the Republic of Ireland, is an integral part of the UK and has the right to determine its own constitutional future?

Yes.

Fair play. 

Could you get some of the others on here to talk as straight as you?

[firstsub]

I wouldn't have a problem with a nationalist being minister.  I would have a problem if SF had the ministry though.

Is this down to the party, or the individuals capabilities?

[Roger]

I wouldn't have a problem with a nationalist being minister.  I would have a problem if SF had the ministry though.

Is this down to the party, or the individuals capabilities?

Down to trust.  I'm happy enough with some of the SF people.  For example I think Conor Murphy is one of the better MLAs in the whole place and his ministery is well run.  I would not want him anywhere near justice though, he has 'previous' with regards to Justice but not Regional Development.  I suppose it's a case of time elapsing to build trust.  It might not be right, but it's pragmatic given the recent past and the seriousness of the department.

[firstsub]

Fair enough. As one with an ecologist outlook, I had difficulty with the previous environment minister, for obvious reasons.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Fair play. 

Could you get some of the others on here to talk as straight as you?

Jesus Roger, I've already put my neck on the line, now you want me to skin and gut myself too! 

In all seriousness, I much appreciated your directness and straight talk, and to do less than reciprocate wasn't an option. There's hope for us.

[The Watcher Pat]

I wouldn't have a problem with a nationalist being minister.  I would have a problem if SF had the ministry though.

Is this down to the party, or the individuals capabilities?

Down to trust.  I'm happy enough with some of the SF people.  For example I think Conor Murphy is one of the better MLAs in the whole place and his ministery is well run.  I would not want him anywhere near justice though, he has 'previous' with regards to Justice but not Regional Development.  I suppose it's a case of time elapsing to build trust.  It might not be right, but it's pragmatic given the recent past and the seriousness of the department.

He wont be anywhere near Justice.....That will be UUP, DUP or more than likely a compromise Alliance. That Naomi Long blade actually is quite articulate and knows what she's doing so might be half decent at it...

Maybe we should get Willie Frazer in for this post....I'd say he'd be a smashing "justice (for anybody thats done anything against the union) minister.

[Main Street]

Rather, the problem is with the perception of sectarian motivation.

But honestly, what is the motivation, if not sectarian? It's all about identity surely - how can that not be sectarian? I'm not saying that such a motivation is necessarily a bad thing. I can fully understand why many people - especially those who live there - want the name changed, but let's call a spade a spade.

You like Roger bandy the word 'sectarian' with folly and disrespect.

Neither of you have explained why, a people who have been using the name of Derry as a name place for generations who want to have that officially done, is sectarian.
A name place that was in common general use in 1911 census. A name place that is known and used throughout all Ireland. 

It will not be illegal for somebody  keep calling it Londonderry, but if some citizen asks for a bus ticket to Derry
at least he wont have the bigoted reply of some d'íckhead being officially sanctioned.

[Donagh]

Where is the 'mentalist' smiley on this board???
[/quote]

Well do you not accept that nationalists find the name insulting and represents all that was bad about the era of unionist domination?

[Maguire01]

Not at all. You're obviously mistaking the term 'sectarian' as relating exclusively to religion. I wasn't.

But anyway, if it isn't an issue of asserting identity, what is it?

Am I? What else is there in my identity which you associate with belonging to a 'sect'?

Rather, the problem is with the perception of sectarian motivation.

But honestly, what is the motivation, if not sectarian? It's all about identity surely - how can that not be sectarian? I'm not saying that such a motivation is necessarily a bad thing. I can fully understand why many people - especially those who live there - want the name changed, but let's call a spade a spade.

You like Roger bandy the word 'sectarian' with folly and disrespect.

Neither of you have explained why, a people who have been using the name of Derry as a name place for generations who want to have that officially done, is sectarian.
A name place that was in common general use in 1911 census. A name place that is known and used throughout all Ireland. 

'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.

For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.

[Maguire01]

What does it matter where I live? It's a town in my country just like Cobh, Dún Laoghaire or Craigavon for that matter and as a republican and anti-colonialist, I'm naturally going to reassert my country's sovereignty by ridding it of reminders of an unpleasant past.

For me the name change is simply a matter of easing the memory of an unpleasant, oppressive and colonial past. Bit like Stalingrad, Leningrad, Queenstown or Kingstown.

Part of a wider and interesting debate actually - how far would you go with name changes?
Personally, Londonderry grates on me, bu there are plenty of others that I pass little remarks to. For example...
Would you rename Queen's University? What about the Royal Hospitals?
Then there are the street names, just in Belfast, off the top of my head, I can think of:
Royal Avenue
Gt Victoria Street
Queen Street
Queen's Bridge
Queen Elizabeth Bridge
Queen's Island
Queen's Quay
Victoria Street
King Street
Gloucester Street
Oxford Street
Bedford Street
Chichester Street
(and i'm sure there are about 100 more, just around Belfast)

I know other post-colonial countries have changed street names, but if the Republican strategy for reunification - and SF's Unionist Charter - is based on inclusion, then is that not inconsistent with changing all these names of 'British' origin? Would these 'British' identities not form part of the new inclusive Irish identity? Or will the Irish identity in a united Ireland be an exclusively Irish Nationalist one?

[Maguire01]

It will not be illegal for somebody  keep calling it Londonderry, but if some citizen asks for a bus ticket to Derry
at least he wont have the bigoted reply of some d'íckhead being officially sanctioned.

I'm sure that with equality legislation and with Translink being a public company, you could pursue such an incident now if you wanted to.

And equally you could find a knuckledragger on the other side of the fence that could give a bigoted reply when being asked for a ticket to Londonderry.

Bigots will always be bigots, regardless of what the official name of the city is.

[Roger]

I wouldn't have a problem with a nationalist being minister.  I would have a problem if SF had the ministry though.

Is this down to the party, or the individuals capabilities?

Down to trust.  I'm happy enough with some of the SF people.  For example I think Conor Murphy is one of the better MLAs in the whole place and his ministery is well run.  I would not want him anywhere near justice though, he has 'previous' with regards to Justice but not Regional Development.  I suppose it's a case of time elapsing to build trust.  It might not be right, but it's pragmatic given the recent past and the seriousness of the department.

He wont be anywhere near Justice.....That will be UUP, DUP or more than likely a compromise Alliance. That Naomi Long blade actually is quite articulate and knows what she's doing so might be half decent at it...

I think under the D'Hondt system the next minstery is due to go to the SDLP.  I wouldn't have a problem with that party providing the minister.  I don't see the objection of them but presume it must be more to do with sorting processes out now so that SF cannot get that ministery at some stage in future.

[Roger]

Where is the 'mentalist' smiley on this board???

Well do you not accept that nationalists find the name insulting and represents all that was bad about the era of unionist domination?
[/quote]

Your question infers that nationalists have a right to be anti-British and that unionists should just suck it up and carry some sort of guilt that needs to be paid for, on behalf of people who they weren't born to witness.  That postition has nothing to do with equality, shared future or your Ireland of Equals that is the usual smoke screen for the real motivation and intent and to disguise the real shape of things to come.