The Old Derry / Londonderry name problem

[Maguire01]

'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.

For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.

No it's about bringing an end to an age old insult. It has to be recognised that the current name of the town is grossly insulting and the status quo is not an acceptable option.

Yes, and changing the name back to Derry will be the start of a new insult for Unionists - hardly part of the new inclusive Ireland. Two wrongs won't make a right.
And regardless of whether the move is to end an 'insult', it can't not be political - it's pretty much Nationalists v Unionists.

I agree that the status quo is not an acceptable option. But should we not be looking for a compromise that might get some broad agreement from people 'on both sides'?

I think the idea of a new name is crap, but dual naming is one possible solution. People will continue to call the city in line with their own preference, but both names would have official status, both names would be included on signage / maps etc... thereby you recognise that there are 2 legitimate traditions in the city.

You hit the nail right on the head there " back to Derry"

Can you explain why it was changer in the start?

It's in the history books. It happened in the 1600s. Things change. Lots of things have changed in the last 350/400 years.

We have to deal with the 'here and now'.

[armaghniac]

I think the proposal in Derry to call the greater city Derry, but to talk about the Walled City of LondonDerry for the historic section of the city, is a reasonable one that respects the history of the place.

[Main Street]

'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.

For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.

By that questionable logic, a majority decision is sectarian.
In this example, a majority decision about a name which has been in general use for generations. A name whose usage crossed all political/religious boundaries before partition.

Having 2 official names on a signpost, is a nonsense idea imo

[Maguire01]

'Sectarian' can be political term every bit as much as religious one. I was referring to the decision as being politically sectarian - the motivation is purely political, is it not? It's about asserting/reasserting a Nationalist identity for the city.
My point is that the idea that this move is to avoid confusion for investors and tourists is largely a minor/side issue/benefit to the name change. It's not the main motivation.

For the record, I obviously call the city Derry and would never refer to it by its 'official' title.

By that questionable logic, a majority decision is sectarian.
In this example, a majority decision about a name which has been in general use for generations. A name whose usage crossed all political/religious boundaries before partition.

Yes, but we're dealing with the present reality. That people/Unionists we're happy using a particular name in the past is largely irrelevant. We have to deal with today's Unionists.

Having 2 official names on a signpost, is a nonsense idea imo

Why so?

[deiseach]

I think the idea of a new name is crap, but dual naming is one possible solution. People will continue to call the city in line with their own preference, but both names would have official status, both names would be included on signage / maps etc... thereby you recognise that there are 2 legitimate traditions in the city.

Strikes me as a good idea. Could it be extended to the name of Northern Ireland / the North of Ireland?

[Maguire01]

I think the proposal in Derry to call the greater city Derry, but to talk about the Walled City of LondonDerry for the historic section of the city, is a reasonable one that respects the history of the place.

On page 75 the Council lists three policy alternatives -
Option 1: No change in the name
Option 2: Change name to Derry/Londonderry
Option 3: Change name to Derry but retain Londonderry for Walled City

Option 1 and 2 are rejected on the basis that they do not reflect the need for a single clear identity and do not reflect the wishes of the vast majority of citizens.

Option 3 is rejected on the basis that this option has no perceived cross-party political support.
http://www.equalityni.org/archive/ECNI%20DDC%20EQIA.pdf

[Donagh]

Yes, and changing the name back to Derry will be the start of a new insult for Unionists - hardly part of the new inclusive Ireland. Two wrongs won't make a right.
And regardless of whether the move is to end an 'insult', it can't not be political - it's pretty much Nationalists v Unionists.

I agree that the status quo is not an acceptable option. But should we not be looking for a compromise that might get some broad agreement from people 'on both sides'?

I think the idea of a new name is crap, but dual naming is one possible solution. People will continue to call the city in line with their own preference, but both names would have official status, both names would be included on signage / maps etc... thereby you recognise that there are 2 legitimate traditions in the city.

That's a ridiculous line of argument. You are defending one groups right to insult another because you believe they'd be insulted if they're required to stop insulting the other. If that was a child, it would get a clip around the ear and told to wise-up.

[Maguire01]

Yes, and changing the name back to Derry will be the start of a new insult for Unionists - hardly part of the new inclusive Ireland. Two wrongs won't make a right.
And regardless of whether the move is to end an 'insult', it can't not be political - it's pretty much Nationalists v Unionists.

I agree that the status quo is not an acceptable option. But should we not be looking for a compromise that might get some broad agreement from people 'on both sides'?

I think the idea of a new name is crap, but dual naming is one possible solution. People will continue to call the city in line with their own preference, but both names would have official status, both names would be included on signage / maps etc... thereby you recognise that there are 2 legitimate traditions in the city.

That's a ridiculous line of argument. You are defending one groups right to insult another because you believe they'd be insulted if they're required to stop insulting the other. If that was a child, it would get a clip around the ear and told to wise-up.

I'm not defending anyone's right to insult another - where do you get that from?
But are you not dismissing the idea that a name change will now insult Unionists, however legitimate you perceive such an insult to be?

I'm definitely not saying that Nationalists should continue to feel 'insulted', just to spare Unioinists from being 'insulted'; that's a futile position. All i'm doing is trying to gauge whether there's any appetite for a compromise on the name issue by Nationalists. For you, it's clearly black and white.

[armaghniac]

Perhaps Derry (formerly Londonderry during periods of geryymanded unionist rule) would reflect the situation.

[Donagh]

I'm not defending anyone's right to insult another - where do you get that from?
But are you not dismissing the idea that a name change will now insult Unionists, however legitimate you perceive such an insult to be?

I'm definitely not saying that Nationalists should continue to feel 'insulted', just to spare Unioinists from being 'insulted'; that's a futile position. All i'm doing is trying to gauge whether there's any appetite for a compromise on the name issue by Nationalists. For you, it's clearly black and white.

Well you are on here defending unionists aiming to retain the insulting name, if that is not defending it I apologise.

I do dismiss the idea that the name change will be an insult to unionists, they may not like it, like the KKK may not like being barred from tarring and feathering black people but it's certainly not insulting to make them refrain from insulting others.

As far as I'm concerned they can keep a ward of the council named Londonderry but all official reference to it in respect of the town or county should be wiped out. After that comes Craigavon although I suspect it's integration into the new council will see it quickly forgotten as it is broken up into various new towns.

[Maguire01]

I'm not defending anyone's right to insult another - where do you get that from?
But are you not dismissing the idea that a name change will now insult Unionists, however legitimate you perceive such an insult to be?

I'm definitely not saying that Nationalists should continue to feel 'insulted', just to spare Unioinists from being 'insulted'; that's a futile position. All i'm doing is trying to gauge whether there's any appetite for a compromise on the name issue by Nationalists. For you, it's clearly black and white.

Well you are on here defending unionists aiming to retain the insulting name, if that is not defending it I apologise.

I do dismiss the idea that the name change will be an insult to unionists, they may not like it, like the KKK may not like being barred from tarring and feathering black people but it's certainly not insulting to make them refrain from insulting others.

As far as I'm concerned they can keep a ward of the council named Londonderry but all official reference to it in respect of the town or county should be wiped out. After that comes Craigavon although I suspect it's integration into the new council will see it quickly forgotten as it is broken up into various new towns.

I'm not defending Unionists, i'm trying to look at it objectively; you just want to dismiss an opposing opinion out of hand. Clearly the charter for Unionist engagement isn't worth the paper it's written on.

I'm sure many Unionists use the term Londonderry as naturally as we use the name Derry. I doubt they're all using it just to insult Catholics; you clearly don't.

[Donagh]

I'm not defending Unionists, i'm trying to look at it objectively; you just want to dismiss an opposing opinion out of hand. Clearly the charter for Unionist engagement isn't worth the paper it's written on.

I'm sure many Unionists use the term Londonderry as naturally as we use the name Derry. I doubt they're all using it just to insult Catholics; you clearly don't.

If you are looking at it objectively you will recognise the insult that it is to the rest of the country to retain the name. It doesn't matter if it is natural for them to use the term, as I'm sure it's natural for the KKK to use the term ;nigger', but the plain fact is they will have to understand that it is not an acceptable term to use elsewhere.

I've no idea what charter you are talking about.

[Maguire01]

I'm not defending Unionists, i'm trying to look at it objectively; you just want to dismiss an opposing opinion out of hand. Clearly the charter for Unionist engagement isn't worth the paper it's written on.

I'm sure many Unionists use the term Londonderry as naturally as we use the name Derry. I doubt they're all using it just to insult Catholics; you clearly don't.

If you are looking at it objectively you will recognise the insult that it is to the rest of the country to retain the name. It doesn't matter if it is natural for them to use the term, as I'm sure it's natural for the KKK to use the term ;nigger', but the plain fact is they will have to understand that it is not an acceptable term to use elsewhere.

I've no idea what charter you are talking about.

I find it more important that Derry is recognised than Londonderry wiped out. If Derry is recognised as the legitimate name for the city, then it doesn't offend or insult me that there could be a second official name.

As for comparing the term 'nigger' to 'Londonderry' - I think there's a bit of a difference. 

The charter: http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/UnionistCharter.pdf

[Donagh]

I find it more important that Derry is recognised than Londonderry wiped out. If Derry is recognised as the legitimate name for the city, then it doesn't offend or insult me that there could be a second official name.

As for comparing the term 'nigger' to 'Londonderry' - I think there's a bit of a difference. 

The charter: http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/UnionistCharter.pdf

Good for you.

Not to me there isn't. The are both symptomatic of the same mentality.

I don't see what some SF charter has to do with the issue.

[Maguire01]

I find it more important that Derry is recognised than Londonderry wiped out. If Derry is recognised as the legitimate name for the city, then it doesn't offend or insult me that there could be a second official name.

As for comparing the term 'nigger' to 'Londonderry' - I think there's a bit of a difference. 

The charter: http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/UnionistCharter.pdf

Good for you.

Not to me there isn't. The are both symptomatic of the same mentality.

I don't see what some SF charter has to do with the issue.

You can't? You don't see that the Derry issue is largely a Nationalist/Republican vs Unioinst issue and the Charter is about how Republicans propose to engage with those same Unionists as part of the 'Ireland of Equals'?