First test v South Africa is not until 20th June, but Boyle's have odds on Irishmen starting the first test. Some interesting ones. Where's the value? Who's overpriced?
O'Connell, Paul 4/9
Wallace, David 4/7
O'Driscoll, Brian 4/7
Bowe, T. 11/8
O'Gara, Ronan 7/4
Flannery, Jerry 9/4
O'Callaghan, Donncha 3/1
Fitzgerald, Luke 4/1
Kearney, Rob 9/2
Horan, Marcus 6/1
Best, Rory 6/1
O'Leary, Tomas 6/1
Heaslip, Jamie 15/2
Ferris, Stephen 16/1
Horgan, Shane 20/1
Earls, Keith 20/1
Hayes, John 25/1
Murphy, Geordan 33/1
Reddan, Eoin 50/1
Quote from: Hound on February 12, 2009, 04:47:29 PM
First test v South Africa is not until 20th June, but Boyle's have odds on Irishmen starting the first test. Some interesting ones. Where's the value? Who's overpriced?
O'Connell, Paul 4/9
Wallace, David 4/7
O'Driscoll, Brian 4/7
Bowe, T. 11/8
O'Gara, Ronan 7/4
Flannery, Jerry 9/4
O'Callaghan, Donncha 3/1
Fitzgerald, Luke 4/1
Kearney, Rob 9/2
Horan, Marcus 6/1
Best, Rory 6/1
O'Leary, Tomas 6/1
Heaslip, Jamie 15/2
Ferris, Stephen 16/1
Horgan, Shane 20/1
Earls, Keith 20/1
Hayes, John 25/1
Murphy, Geordan 33/1
Reddan, Eoin 50/1
I take it they are going singles only on this? Normally the case... If not could pick a few but I doubt they would allow it...
Tommy Bowe is poor value. Rob Kearney and Jamie Heaslip are worth a punt.
I'd love to get a couple of accums on this if allowed!
POC, Wallace and drico are certs as the odds suggest.
Kearney and Heaslip should be 2/1 at most as they are breathing down the necks of their Welsh counterparts (Gay Byrne and Powell)
avoid T-Bowe, and our front row.
There's value with O'leary. I'd still have him 3rd choice but Phillips and Peel (who i know wasn't even Wales 2nd choice) may out compete each other. Blair could miss out and become the victim of being part of a very poor scotland side
Kearney Byrne is a 2 horse race and very close one at that.
I think the value might be Ferris though.
Murphy, Geordan 33/1 is well worth a shot as they love him in Britain. I also think Jamie could be the No8 come June.
Was on Boyles there and as I thought it is singles only....
kearney heislip and ferris are definitely in there with a good chance in particular the first 2.kearney seems to have added an extra dimension to his game since the move to full back.is it too early to start posting our starting 15s ;D
Quote from: Tim Buzaglo on February 12, 2009, 05:12:26 PM
POC, Wallace and drico are certs as the odds suggest.
Wallace's odds surprised me. I wouldnt have him as a cert. I'd have thought Martyn Williams for 7 and Ryan Jones a cert for either 6 or 8, leaving one spot between the likes of Wallace, Heaslip, Easter, Haskell, Taylor, Ferris, Powell etc. Wallace probably just about at the head of that queue but heavy odds on favourite?
Best is shorter odds than I thought, possibly make the squad?
As said Tommy Bowe is too short, as is Jerry Flannery... he could lose his place in the Irish team!
O'Leary, Heaslip & Kearney will all be in barring some horrible Irish performances!
Picking a hooker for the Lions is tricky because of the mix of players. If you pick a unit that play together regularly fair enough. With the exception of Woody I think they usually end up going for an accurate thrower that is solid in the scrum.
Remember a Shane Byrne making the starting 15 for those reasons? Best could be in with a shout especially if there are lots of games before the 1st test.
O'Connell, Paul 4/9
Wallace, David 4/7
O'Driscoll, Brian 4/7
O'Gara, Ronan 7/4
Flannery, Jerry 9/4
O'Callaghan, Donncha 3/1
Fitzgerald, Luke 4/1
Kearney, Rob 9/2
Heaslip, Jamie 15/2
Ferris, Stephen 16/1
Earls, Keith 20/1
If anyone gets selected outside this group I'll be shocked, only BOD and POC will definitely start. Ferris would be my dark horse
Reddan would be my dark horse, worth a couple of yoyos anyway. Played really well again for Ireland A on Saturday, and with O'Leary being slightly disappointing again, there's a chance he could get a starting role before the campaign is over. And if he does his 50/1 price will get slashed
Jamie Heaslip would be my dark horse
What about John Hayes ?
Consistant without being spectacular and there is no stand-out tighthead prop
Quote from: Hound on February 16, 2009, 03:14:19 PM
Reddan would be my dark horse, worth a couple of yoyos anyway. Played really well again for Ireland A on Saturday, and with O'Leary being slightly disappointing again, there's a chance he could get a starting role before the campaign is over. And if he does his 50/1 price will get slashed
Also he was brought in by McGeechan and Edwards to Wasps so he is most definitely in with a shout for a spot on the tour at least although Scrum Half is seriously competitive with Peel, Blair, Phillips and Ellis all in with a shout of a Test Spot. Looking forward to the Lions this year after that farce Woodward made us sit through last time. McGeechan has proven he knows how to win with the Lions and I expect the Series to be very competitive next time around.
From Ireland yeah Wallace, Heaslip, BOD, POC all worth a shout. Is there also not some tradition that they take in a sort of 'up and coming' club player who maybe hasn't made their mark on the International stage yet? If Earls has a good finish to the Heineken Cup he could be in with a shout for that spot!
Anyone care to name what they reckon the squad will be? Here's my effort, with the squad being what I think will be picked and not what should be picked
FB - Kearney, Byrne. Tickets bought already. Only way the two of them won't be on the plane is injury.
Wing - Bowe, Sackey, Halfpenny, Williams, Evans/Fitzgerald
C - BOD, Roberts, Tindall, Evans. Henson/D'arcy
FH - ROG, Jones, Cipriani
SH - Phillips, Peel, AN Other
Prop - Jenkins, A. Jones, Hayes, Vickery
Hooker - Flannery, Mears, Rees
Lock - POC, AWJ, Kennedy, Gough/DOC
Back Row - Wallace, R. Jones, Heaslip, Powell, Haskell, J. White
Initial 35 man squad. Some of the English picks, in particular Vickery, Haskell and Cipriani are down to McGeechan going for homers.
Heaslip and Ferris would be good value.
Quote from: Roger on February 16, 2009, 03:45:39 PM
Heaslip and Ferris would be good value.
I'm a big fan of Ferris, but just don't get the impression he'll make it. If he can remain consistent and avoid injury (which has been a big problem in the past), he'll definitely be in with a shout. Martyn Williams will also be looked at, but I think his performances have a dropped a few notches over the last two years or so.
you wouldnt be far away there gallsman
some of the scottish locks wont be far away, injury permitting
likewise Danny Care for SH. If he can get some gametime in the 6N and plays well for Harlequins in the HC, he will be on the plane.
if that tradition is right that screen is talking about, there is a guy from Bath, MAtt Banahan. A monster of a winger who would frighten the life out of the springboks.
Quote from: gallsman on February 16, 2009, 03:49:02 PM
Quote from: Roger on February 16, 2009, 03:45:39 PM
Heaslip and Ferris would be good value.
I'm a big fan of Ferris, but just don't get the impression he'll make it. If he can remain consistent and avoid injury (which has been a big problem in the past), he'll definitely be in with a shout. Martyn Williams will also be looked at, but I think his performances have a dropped a few notches over the last two years or so.
Dunno about that. In my opinion Williams was the outstanding back row player of the 2008 Six Nations and I don't think Wallace has done enough in 2009 (yet) to displace him.
Ferris and Heaslip v Haskell and Easter next time could decide who goes on the plane. I'd be hopefuly McGeechan will pick on merit and not politics.
I like McGeechan and he'll certainly be a lot more fair than Woodward was, but I don't think he'll be able to resist taking a few Wasps players. In my mind Vickery is as good as finished, but can't shake off the feeling that he'll be on the plane.
As for the "traditional" non-established player, he could very easily go for Tom Varndell.
Armitage could be a threat at full back.
Ireland and Wales are going well with England improving . Looks like we will have to listen the Scots whinge again about only having 3/4 players on the squad.
now that you have highlighted the Wasps thing, what about Josh Lewsey ?
Saw an interview with him recently and the Lions tour is his main aim this season, now that Wasps season is effectively over.
I dont think it will be far away from the squad which gallsman attempted.
Few names that could appear could be James Hook, Jonathan Thomas, Simon Taylor, Danny Care, Josh Lewsey (playing well for McGeechan at Wasps) and Rory Best maybe. Players probably only have a maximum of 6-8 games now to play their way into the squad.
To be honest options are quite restricted for the Lions due to the form of both Scotland and England while I still cant make my mind up about this Ireland squad just yet. There will obviously be a strong Welsh influence owing to their good form both at international and club level and both Gatland and Edwards having jobs with the Lions.
The captaincy issue is also an interesting one. O'Drico has unfinished business while O'Connell is also a big contender. Outside of Ryan Jones (who wouldn't be an automatic choice for the starting XV by any stretch of the imagination) there arent really many other options.
Really looking forward to the Lions tour this year. Woodward ruined it last time and McGeechan knows to create an atmosphere akin to the old style tours of the past as well as a winning one. I really fancy the Lions to win it 2-1.
Quote from: Goats Do Shave on February 16, 2009, 03:57:46 PM
Armitage could be a threat at full back.
To me he looks like a typical English full back of recent years. Excellent with ball in hand, but put him under pressure and he will make mistakes. Not a patch on Byrne or Kearney in my opinion.
I think people are overstating the Barbarian principle of picking one newcomer. I'd be very surprised if McGeechan did that.
I'd like to take Jason White out of that squad I proposed, he just hasn't got it any more, but is still more than capable of putting in big hits. John Barclay will and should be a better oppositiong.
Was looking up some videos of that guy Banahan on YouTube - te guy is an animal!
Quote from: gallsman on February 16, 2009, 03:49:02 PM
I'm a big fan of Ferris, but just don't get the impression he'll make it. If he can remain consistent and avoid injury (which has been a big problem in the past), he'll definitely be in with a shout. Martyn Williams will also be looked at, but I think his performances have a dropped a few notches over the last two years or so.
Ferris is peaking at the right time. SA need to be taken on physically up front. I expect the Irish back row all to be going. For me it is the most complete in 6N at moment and if, as I expect, Ireland do well in this tournament they will be hard to look past. Immense against France and the work rate of the back 5 against Italy, who are one of the world's most physical packs, was very impressive.
Quote from: gallsman on February 16, 2009, 04:15:25 PM
I'd like to take Jason White out of that squad I proposed, he just hasn't got it any more, but is still more than capable of putting in big hits. John Barclay will and should be a better oppositiong.
Was looking up some videos of that guy Banahan on YouTube - te guy is an animal!
it would be like turning Paul O'Connell into a winger
4/9 POC is a good price, basically he just has to stay fit. I would back that. R Kearney also a very very big price.
Took a look at Banahan there too... huge guy with some massive hits!
Just reading on BBC Sport Paul O'Connell has been named as the Lions captain.
Thought I would bump this given the announcement shortly. I'm looking forward to a few surprises I think Keith Earls is worth a shout!
Earls has a very good shout I think, especially now the squad is going to be 37, which would lead you to believe he's taking a couple of young, nationally inexperienced lads who've impressed recently. There's always one or two wild cards at least.
How many Irish? I'll guess 9.
There should be a few more than 9 I think, but think Wales will still have more unfortunately.
Gerry Thornely had 15 Irish in his 35 man squad today!
That's too many, but especially now with 37 men, it'll be double figures. 12 or 13.
About 13 sounds right to me, they are the Grand Slam champs after all! There'll only be a few Scots I'd say, a bit more English but the vast majority Irish and Welsh.
Earls in!
how is the squad announced? is ther anywhere online showing it?
Right amount of Irish backs!
Jesus Quinlan, Earls and O'Callaghan!! Wasn't expecting that. God some representation from Ireland!
Ws that 13 irish?
Quinlan and Earls shocks!
No Ryan Jones :o
14 Irish & 13 Welsh out of the 37. I think there was only 2 Scots.
Irish dominate Lions selection
Tuesday, 21 April 2009 13:40
14 Irishmen will travel with the Lions touring squad for South Africa, with Paul O'Connell confirmed as captain.
Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Tommy Bowe, Brian O'Driscoll, Keith Earls, Ronan O'Gara, Tomás O'Leary, Jamie Heaslip, David Wallace, Stephen Ferris, Alan Quinlan, Donncha O'Callaghan and Jerry Flannery are the other Irishmen travelling.
Coach Ian McGeechan takes a 36-man squad for the 10-match tour in South Africa, which includes Tests in Durban, Pretoria and Johannesburg.
The squad will depart on 24 May - a day after the Heineken Cup final.
Full squad to be listed shortly.
No Armitage either! Bigger shock for me. They took 5 wingers too, thought Bowe was left out when they announced the other 4 before him! Moyne a bit of a shock aswell.
Fcuk that's some amount of Irish! :o
Some amount of Irish . The Scottish will do some moaning now .
Ross Ford and Mike Blair were front-runners for their positions before the 6 nations, some change now.
Lions 37-man squad
Backs: Lee Byrne, Rob Kearney, Shane Williams, Leigh Halfpenny, Ugo Monye, Luke Fitzgerald, Tommy Bowe, Tom Shanklin, Jamie Roberts, Brian O'Driscoll, Keith Earls, Riki Flutey, Ronan O'Gara, Stephen Jones, Mike Phillips, Harry Ellis, Tomas O'Leary.
Forwards: Jamie Heaslip, Andy Powell, David Wallace, Stephen Ferris, Alan Quinlan, Joe Worsley, Martyn Williams, Alun Wyn-Jones, Paul O'Connell (capt), Donncha O'Callaghan, Simon Shaw, Nathan Hines, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Andrew Sheridan, Phil Vickery, Euan Murray, Jerry Flannery, Lee Mears, Matthew Rees.
Who from the Irish starting team is left out ? John Hayes ?
Quote from: Declan on April 21, 2009, 01:47:48 PM
Lions 37-man squad
Backs: Lee Byrne, Rob Kearney, Shane Williams, Leigh Halfpenny, Ugo Monye, Luke Fitzgerald, Tommy Bowe, Tom Shanklin, Jamie Roberts, Brian O'Driscoll, Keith Earls, Riki Flutey, Ronan O'Gara, Stephen Jones, Mike Phillips, Harry Ellis, Tomas O'Leary.
Forwards: Jamie Heaslip, Andy Powell, David Wallace, Stephen Ferris, Alan Quinlan, Joe Worsley, Martyn Williams, Alun Wyn-Jones, Paul O'Connell (capt), Donncha O'Callaghan, Simon Shaw, Nathan Hines, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Andrew Sheridan, Phil Vickery, Euan Murray, Jerry Flannery, Lee Mears, Matthew Rees.
Were they expected only to take 2 fly halfs or is this a bit unusual?
Think front row will struggle in SA......not surprised Armitage wasnt picked...very over rated, I think Ryan Jones is injured.Still great representation of Irish.
Test team- Byrne, bowe, BOD, Roberts, William's, ROG, Phillips, Heaslip, Wallace, William's, Wyn- Jones, POC, Murray, Flannery, Jenkins
2 fly halves - one of them is O'Gara!!!
Armitage would have been a useful addition too?
Quote from: orangeman on April 21, 2009, 01:51:41 PM
Who from the Irish starting team is left out ? John Hayes ?
Hayes, Horan, D'Arcy / Paddy Wallace. Quinlan and Earls don't start for Ireland.
Hayes, Horan, Wallace and then Earls and Quinlan haven't really played for Ireland.
Quote from: Owenbeg on April 21, 2009, 01:53:17 PM
Test team- Byrne, bowe, BOD, Roberts, William's, ROG, Phillips, Heaslip, Wallace, William's, Wyn- Jones, POC, Murray, Flannery, Jenkins
I'd be surprised if ROG is starting, imo both welsh lads are better anyway.
Thought Tom Croft from Leicester, watched him a few times on ITV4, really stands out- can play lock or in the back row, he's a s fast as a winger as well.. Are their any other kicker's- saw halfpenny kick a few, flutey used to kick for London Irish as well and think Kearney has done some kicking but none regular kickers- surley you want, 3/4 world class kickers cos you aint goin to score that many tries against SA.
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 21, 2009, 01:53:29 PM
2 fly halves - one of them is O'Gara!!!
I thought Henson might have got a call with him being versatile...
O'Leary???? ???
Quote from: Declan on April 21, 2009, 01:47:48 PM
Lions 37-man squad
Backs: Lee Byrne, Rob Kearney, Shane Williams, Leigh Halfpenny, Ugo Monye, Luke Fitzgerald, Tommy Bowe, Tom Shanklin, Jamie Roberts, Brian O'Driscoll, Keith Earls, Riki Flutey, Ronan O'Gara, Stephen Jones, Mike Phillips, Harry Ellis, Tomas O'Leary.
Forwards: Jamie Heaslip, Andy Powell, David Wallace, Stephen Ferris, Alan Quinlan, Joe Worsley, Martyn Williams, Alun Wyn-Jones, Paul O'Connell (capt), Donncha O'Callaghan, Simon Shaw, Nathan Hines, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Andrew Sheridan, Phil Vickery, Euan Murray, Jerry Flannery, Lee Mears, Matthew Rees.
I can't wait till i hear what that jumped up S Dublin pr1ck Neil Francis has to say about this on the last word ;D ;D he has lead a one man crusade against Bowe with his henchman George recently steping aside and admitting his errors re pace and ability of Bowe.
Francis always struck me as someone who is really bitter that he missed the pro rugby era
Anyway hopefully the Irish and other islands Lions do well ;D ;D
Very surprised that Earls got picked ahead of Armitage and Quinlan ahead of Croft, but good luck to them!
Would have thought that when England won the WC some years ago that this concept of the Lions would be reduntant. Why oh why do 4 countries need to pool their players to play another country in a series of games? May have been some justification years ago when a long boat trip was needed, but not now imo.
Afaik, Sth Africa have been beaten in the last few years by England, Ireland and France. (am open to correction on this though).
Also, bringing a barrister along is just silly.
The squad is great news from an Irish point of view, 14 players and the team captain is great stuff.
Quote from: Canalman on April 21, 2009, 02:11:37 PM
Would have thought that when England won the WC some years ago that this concept of the Lions would be reduntant. Why oh why do 4 countries need to pool their players to play another country in a series of games? May have been some justification years ago when a long boat trip was needed, but not now imo.
Afaik, Sth Africa have been beaten in the last few years by England, Ireland and France. (am open to correction on this though).
Also, bringing a barrister along is just silly.
Have to agree to an extent Canalman, I like rugby and follow the international scene, but could take or leave the Lions. Wouldn't worry me in the slightest if they were hammered in (or won) all 3 tests.
Can't believe Quinlan is in. doesn't usually pay toquestion the geech though.
speculation that the 36 was increased to 37 to accomdate shane williams.
i'm surprised that ROG was included.
correct call on the captaincy i'd say.
my stab at the xv:
Byrne, Kearney, BOD, Flutey, Monye, Jones, Phillips, vickery, flannery, Jones, POC, Shaw, Ferris, Williams, Powell.
Quote from: The GAA on April 21, 2009, 02:17:53 PM
Can't believe Quinlan is in. doesn't usually pay toquestion the geech though.
speculation that the 36 was increased to 37 to accomdate shane williams.
i'm surprised that ROG was included.
correct call on the captaincy i'd say.
my stab at the xv:
Byrne, Kearney, BOD, Flutey, Monye, Jones, Phillips, vickery, flannery, Jones, POC, Shaw, Ferris, Williams, Powell.
Would have have Heaslip in ahead of Powell there and Wallace ahead of Williams
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 21, 2009, 02:16:42 PM
Quote from: Canalman on April 21, 2009, 02:11:37 PM
Would have thought that when England won the WC some years ago that this concept of the Lions would be reduntant. Why oh why do 4 countries need to pool their players to play another country in a series of games? May have been some justification years ago when a long boat trip was needed, but not now imo.
Afaik, Sth Africa have been beaten in the last few years by England, Ireland and France. (am open to correction on this though).
Also, bringing a barrister along is just silly.
Have to agree to an extent Canalman, I like rugby and follow the international scene, but could take or leave the Lions. Wouldn't worry me in the slightest if they were hammered in (or won) all 3 tests.
It's great drama. if you don't dig it fair enough but i love the old tour concept and watching the test team develop over the weeks. the midweek games are great entertainment. i also find the coaching end of things and the attempts to blend players from different nations and mould a team fascinatng.
Quote from: whiskeysteve on April 21, 2009, 02:19:58 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 21, 2009, 02:17:53 PM
Can't believe Quinlan is in. doesn't usually pay toquestion the geech though.
speculation that the 36 was increased to 37 to accomdate shane williams.
i'm surprised that ROG was included.
correct call on the captaincy i'd say.
my stab at the xv:
Byrne, Kearney, BOD, Flutey, Monye, Jones, Phillips, vickery, flannery, Jones, POC, Shaw, Ferris, Williams, Powell.
Would have have Heaslip in ahead of Powell there and Wallace ahead of Williams
At number 8? surely wallace is competing with williams
Quote from: Canalman on April 21, 2009, 02:11:37 PM
Would have thought that when England won the WC some years ago that this concept of the Lions would be reduntant. Why oh why do 4 countries need to pool their players to play another country in a series of games? May have been some justification years ago when a long boat trip was needed, but not now imo.
Afaik, Sth Africa have been beaten in the last few years by England, Ireland and France. (am open to correction on this though).
Also, bringing a barrister along is just silly.
It's more than that the Lions is a great occasion and a fantastic sporting spectacle. Yes the last tour was pure shite but the South Africans are current World Champions and they will be going all out to win it.
It's a huge challenge to bring a team together in the space of 8 weeks against a great side halfway around the world and see if they can achieve glory. Word from South Africa is that they are seeing this current Lions tour as bigger than the World Cup they held. They are an extremely proud Rugby nation and they are still hurting from that defeat 12 years ago.
If you can get a copy of "Living With Lions" the documetary from the 1997 Tour when the Lions beat South Africa you should. Apart from the fact it is actually a very entertaining and well filmed Documentary it shows how important the Lions is viewed by players and fans of Rugby alike.
I am really looking forward to this tour and I would hope to someday make the trip for a tour and spend a few months following the Tour as I would say it would be an amazing experience. Hard to know if the Lions will win or not. At the minute you would have to say SA are favourites but it'll be much easier judged after a few games. Roll on May 30th!
I don't think Flutey should have been picked - plastic Lion.
I'm surprised by only 2 out halves, no Peel/Armitage/Croft/Cipriani/Ryan Jones.
Very disapointed that Rory Best didn't make it. A good scrummager, which is what you need against SA
Quote from: The GAA on April 21, 2009, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on April 21, 2009, 02:19:58 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 21, 2009, 02:17:53 PM
Can't believe Quinlan is in. doesn't usually pay toquestion the geech though.
speculation that the 36 was increased to 37 to accomdate shane williams.
i'm surprised that ROG was included.
correct call on the captaincy i'd say.
my stab at the xv:
Byrne, Kearney, BOD, Flutey, Monye, Jones, Phillips, vickery, flannery, Jones, POC, Shaw, Ferris, Williams, Powell.
Would have have Heaslip in ahead of Powell there and Wallace ahead of Williams
At number 8? surely wallace is competing with williams
sure isnt that what i said :P
sorry - must have missed a tablet this morning!
I wouldnt have picked the plastic Lion either.
Not bringing Hayes is a mistake in my view . This man is the hydrualic under POC and had some of best tackle stats in 6 nations. He remains unheralded even in Ireland.
Jones will start on test team but why would ROG not be picked on the squad ? He would be an automatic selection for either Scotland or England.
The selection of a Welsh management team means there are too many Welsh players selected ...Best would have been a better back up option at Hooker.
Quote from: bcarrier on April 21, 2009, 02:43:31 PM
Jones will start on test team but why would ROG not be picked on the squad ? He would be an automatic selection for either Scotland or England.
Probably Scotland, but England have a wealth at fly half that we'd kill for.
I'd have brought cipriani and hook as back up to jones. actually i'd be seriously considering wilkinson.
ROG does a fine job for munster but falls short mentally at international level. we've all seen fantastic club players that just can't make the transition to county football. he folded like a cheap tent in a gale on the last lions tour.
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 21, 2009, 02:00:04 PM
O'Leary???? ???
Yes that is correct. The guy is a winner and all rounder and a possible Lions test 15 starter at scrum half. They have left some of the best scrum halves behind. Care is better than Ellis, peel is better than Phillips. The 2 Scots Cussiter and Blair were left behind and it was a Scot picking the team not Kidney or McGahan or me. O'leary is well up to it. The gammy box kicking you saw in the 6 nations was Kidneys game plan not O'Learys.
Quote from: The GAA on April 21, 2009, 02:58:01 PM
I'd have brought cipriani and hook as back up to jones. actually i'd be seriously considering wilkinson.
ROG does a fine job for munster but falls short mentally at international level. we've all seen fantastic club players that just can't make the transition to county football. he folded like a cheap tent in a gale on the last lions tour.
Yeah he must of became the top score in Six Nations history by falling short and not being able to make the transition.
Quote from: Gnevin on April 21, 2009, 03:06:18 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 21, 2009, 02:58:01 PM
I'd have brought cipriani and hook as back up to jones. actually i'd be seriously considering wilkinson.
ROG does a fine job for munster but falls short mentally at international level. we've all seen fantastic club players that just can't make the transition to county football. he folded like a cheap tent in a gale on the last lions tour.
Yeah he must of became the top score in Six Nations history by falling short and not being able to make the transition.
He gets selected without any alternative ever being available. He plays behind potentially the best club and international pack in Europe and has done for nearly a decade. If he can kick a ball he is going to score points. It isn't difficult. Doing so in SA will be difficult. Unfortunately he is simply not up to the task.
Quote from: Gnevin on April 21, 2009, 03:06:18 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 21, 2009, 02:58:01 PM
I'd have brought cipriani and hook as back up to jones. actually i'd be seriously considering wilkinson.
ROG does a fine job for munster but falls short mentally at international level. we've all seen fantastic club players that just can't make the transition to county football. he folded like a cheap tent in a gale on the last lions tour.
Yeah he must of became the top score in Six Nations history by falling short and not being able to make the transition.
Hecan kick penalties and drop goals. of that there is no doubt. If ireland had a single credible alternative he wouldn't be playing
Quote from: Gnevin on April 21, 2009, 03:06:18 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 21, 2009, 02:58:01 PM
I'd have brought cipriani and hook as back up to jones. actually i'd be seriously considering wilkinson.
ROG does a fine job for munster but falls short mentally at international level. we've all seen fantastic club players that just can't make the transition to county football. he folded like a cheap tent in a gale on the last lions tour.
Yeah he must of became the top score in Six Nations history by falling short and not being able to make the transition.
Feckin Jonny Wilkinson is up there too and he's only played about 4/5 Six Nations campaigns! I would go with Jones and I am worried that we don't have any real alternative at Fly Half.
Quote from: Feckitt on April 21, 2009, 02:30:49 PM
Very disapointed that Rory Best didn't make it. A good scrummager, which is what you need against SA
I think they brought the better props instead and the better hookers. A front row of Vickery Flannery and Jenkins would be a lot more effective than Horan Best and Hayes, ie 2 scrummaging props and a lineout throwing hooker is better than 2 lineout lifting props and a scrummaging hooker.
Quote from: screenexile on April 21, 2009, 03:39:51 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on April 21, 2009, 03:06:18 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 21, 2009, 02:58:01 PM
I'd have brought cipriani and hook as back up to jones. actually i'd be seriously considering wilkinson.
ROG does a fine job for munster but falls short mentally at international level. we've all seen fantastic club players that just can't make the transition to county football. he folded like a cheap tent in a gale on the last lions tour.
Yeah he must of became the top score in Six Nations history by falling short and not being able to make the transition.
Feckin Jonny Wilkinson is up there too and he's only played about 4/5 Six Nations campaigns! I would go with Jones and I am worried that we don't have any real alternative at Fly Half.
The only alternative outhalf in the squad I think woould beo'Leary as they haven't brought Henson either or Catt or Patterson who I would have brought for his goal kicking or verstatility.
Quote from: C_Berg_316 on April 20, 2009, 01:40:28 PM
Just reading on BBC Sport Paul O'Connell has been named as the Lions captain.
First of his kind to captain the lions anyway i'm sure...
Very ballsy selection by McGeechan, I thought he'd have brough several of the Waps and English contingent. Regarding Quinlan and Earls, both of them are absolutely on fire at the moment, and I think Tom Croft is just that bit too light to face the Boks back row. McGeechan promised to pick on form, and the only player in the 37 not in decent form at the moment is Shane Williams. Fair play to McGeechan for standing up to them all. Never mind Francis, I can't wait to hear what Brian Moore thinks!
Test team:
Byrne, Bowe, Roberts, O'Driscoll, Halfpenny, Jones, Phillips
Jenkins, Flannery, Murray, O'Connell, Wyn-Jones, Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip
Not one England player in the 15. Perhaps Monye, maybe Worsley. But I definitely think it has to be the Irish backrow.
Quote from: Aghdavoyle on April 21, 2009, 04:40:11 PM
Quote from: C_Berg_316 on April 20, 2009, 01:40:28 PM
Just reading on BBC Sport Paul O'Connell has been named as the Lions captain.
First of his kind to captain the lions anyway i'm sure...
There have been many Irish captains in the past. Do you mean he is the first person who wasn't posh or English to be made leader of the Lions
There is an element of giving a dog a bad name where ROG is concerned....I was at The Grand Slam match in Wales with a couple of Leinster supporters and they had me convinced he was having a shocker. Reality is he had a bit of a wobble in first half but his second half performance - in particular exposing the Henson/Williams channel was right out of the top drawer. There is no England out half ( well part from a young jonny) that I would rather have.
Quote from: bcarrier on April 21, 2009, 05:01:05 PM
There is an element of giving a dog a bad name where ROG is concerned....I was at The Grand Slam match in Wales with a couple of Leinster supporters and they had me convinced he was having a shocker. Reality is he had a bit of a wobble in first half but his second half performance - in particular exposing the Henson/Williams channel was right out of the top drawer. There is no England out half ( well part from a young jonny) that I would rather have.
Hear hear. Quality player, good kicker positionally and for the posts. Granted defence is a weakness, but in the modern era all 10's suffer in comparison to Wilkinson's defence at his peak. Also think a lot of ulster rugby fans will never warm to him as they feel he should never have played before Humphreys.
Squad has definitely been picked on form rather than form or rugby politics. Though have to say would rather have seen Care in instead of Ellis, one more fly half and the exclusion of Armitage was a bit of a surprise.
As for O'Gara I think he will start as first choice no 10. Since his last Lions tour in 2005, he has guided Munster to 2 (and maybe 3 before the tour starts) European Cups and then the Grand Slam with Ireland this year. Definitely deserves his place on the plane and would have him slightly ahead of Jones at this stage particularly if Munster win the European Cup.
My stab at the test team for what its worth:
Byrne, Bowe, BOD, Roberts, Williams, O'Gara, Phillips, Jenkins, Mears, Vickery, POC, Wyn Jones, Ferris/Worsely, Wallace, Heaslip
I think O'Callaghan will start, O'Connell will probably have a say in that.
Bringing two fly halves might prove a mistake.
If the South Africans manage to injure one of them (they will be targetted) then backup will be a problem.
In warmup matches, you may have the South African equivalents of Duncan McCrea, wanting to make a name for themselves by dishing out a hammering to a Lions player.
With most other positions there are 2 or 3 alternative possibilities.
Great vote of confidence for Keith Earls, he should be some player for Ireland when his turn comes.
Quote from: Capt Pat on April 21, 2009, 04:58:25 PM
Quote from: Aghdavoyle on April 21, 2009, 04:40:11 PM
Quote from: C_Berg_316 on April 20, 2009, 01:40:28 PM
Just reading on BBC Sport Paul O'Connell has been named as the Lions captain.
First of his kind to captain the lions anyway i'm sure...
There have been many Irish captains in the past. Do you mean he is the first person who wasn't posh or English to be made leader of the Lions
Baffling statement alright, what did it mean??
Quote from: gallsman on April 21, 2009, 04:53:26 PM
Very ballsy selection by McGeechan, I thought he'd have brough several of the Waps and English contingent. Regarding Quinlan and Earls, both of them are absolutely on fire at the moment, and I think Tom Croft is just that bit too light to face the Boks back row. McGeechan promised to pick on form, and the only player in the 37 not in decent form at the moment is Shane Williams. Fair play to McGeechan for standing up to them all. Never mind Francis, I can't wait to hear what Brian Moore thinks!
Test team:
Byrne, Bowe, Roberts, O'Driscoll, Halfpenny, Jones, Phillips
Jenkins, Flannery, Murray, O'Connell, Wyn-Jones, Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip
Not one England player in the 15. Perhaps Monye, maybe Worsley. But I definitely think it has to be the Irish backrow.
I'd be starting Williams too (instead of Halfpenny), I can see why you mightn't, but his try scoring record is unbelievable.
Yeah the Boks reckon they got it wrong 12 years ago by not playing their bigger names in the Provincial Games against the Lions and there's talk of them rectifying that this time so the 2 Fly Halfs will definitely be targetted with this. Also it means only 2 fly halves to cover something like 10 games which is definitely a bit tight.
If there are any injuries at all I think Cipriani will be the first man on the plane over regardless if its a Forward or a Back as there is loads of cover in these areas.
does seem a bit strange only taking 2 outhalfs,perhaps they intend to try some of the other guys in the number 10 position in the midweek games?who would be the best option there?
Offhand I can only ever remember O'Leary playing outhalf for Munster in a game earlier in the season. He kicked all or most of the goals as well.
"It was never something I aspired to" said O'Connell at his press conference today.
Quote from: screenexile on April 21, 2009, 10:38:55 PM
If there are any injuries at all I think Cipriani will be the first man on the plane over regardless if its a Forward or a Back as there is loads of cover in these areas.
It could be a way of buying time to see what sort of form Jonny Wilkinson is in?
Give him a couple of more weeks to see how he is shaping up.
Cipriani or possibly Flood or Hook would be the fallback call up option, if Wilkinson isn't up to it.
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on April 22, 2009, 12:44:43 AM
Quote from: screenexile on April 21, 2009, 10:38:55 PM
If there are any injuries at all I think Cipriani will be the first man on the plane over regardless if its a Forward or a Back as there is loads of cover in these areas.
It could be a way of buying time to see what sort of form Jonny Wilkinson is in?
Give him a couple of more weeks to see how he is shaping up.
Cipriani or possibly Flood or Hook would be the fallback call up option, if Wilkinson isn't up to it.
If he was picking today, he'd have no justification for picking either Cipriani or Wilkinson ahead of Hook (even though Hook is below par at the moment) and the selection of either of them would be the top story in the English media. Hence he's waiting as long as he can to name a third. I'm positive a third outhalf will travel before the end of the tour, and he's hoping that one of Danny or Jonny show form and fitness between then and now, otherwise Hook will eventually get the call.
Unbelievable stuff this!
Sky apologises for Best comments
Sky Sports News was forced to apologise to viewers earlier today following a racist remark by former England coach Dick Best concerning England's Delon Armitage.
In the build-up to this afternoon's British & Irish Lions squad announcement, Best was asked to select his starting XV for the Test series.
When queried as to why he opted for Armitage over Ireland's Grand Slam winning winger Tommy Bowe, Best – who assumed the microphone was switched off – responded: "You've always got to have a coloured boy in the team."
Sky immediately cut back to the studio and a stunned presenter Mike Wedderburn, who is black. Co-presenter Millie Clode later apologised, saying: "[Best] made remarks that he thought were off-camera. We would like to apologise for any offence this may have caused."
In 2004, ITV football commentator Ron Atkinson resigned after making derogatory and racist comments about Chelsea's Marcel Desailly. The former Manchester United and Aston Villa manager has struggled to find broadcasting work since.
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 21, 2009, 10:35:00 PM
Quote from: Capt Pat on April 21, 2009, 04:58:25 PM
Quote from: Aghdavoyle on April 21, 2009, 04:40:11 PM
Quote from: C_Berg_316 on April 20, 2009, 01:40:28 PM
Just reading on BBC Sport Paul O'Connell has been named as the Lions captain.
First of his kind to captain the lions anyway i'm sure...
There have been many Irish captains in the past. Do you mean he is the first person who wasn't posh or English to be made leader of the Lions
Baffling statement alright, what did it mean??
Quote from: gallsman on April 21, 2009, 04:53:26 PM
Very ballsy selection by McGeechan, I thought he'd have brough several of the Waps and English contingent. Regarding Quinlan and Earls, both of them are absolutely on fire at the moment, and I think Tom Croft is just that bit too light to face the Boks back row. McGeechan promised to pick on form, and the only player in the 37 not in decent form at the moment is Shane Williams. Fair play to McGeechan for standing up to them all. Never mind Francis, I can't wait to hear what Brian Moore thinks!
Test team:
Byrne, Bowe, Roberts, O'Driscoll, Halfpenny, Jones, Phillips
Jenkins, Flannery, Murray, O'Connell, Wyn-Jones, Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip
Not one England player in the 15. Perhaps Monye, maybe Worsley. But I definitely think it has to be the Irish backrow.
I'd be starting Williams too (instead of Halfpenny), I can see why you mightn't, but his try scoring record is unbelievable.
Youse are all a bit slow.
indeed they are.
as for the englishmen, i believe shaw will partner POC in the second row.
Quote from: The GAA on April 22, 2009, 09:59:15 AM
indeed they are.
as for the englishmen, i believe shaw will partner POC in the second row.
Wyn Jones is a cert!
We'll see. Shaw is a giant and the s african second row is massive.
Lions squad lacks stardust, says Stuart Barnes
What are your first impressions of this squad?
I am disappointed because I feel it is a much too defensive selection. The decision to leave Tom Croft out has left me absolutely stunned and I just feel the inclusion of Stephen Ferris, Alan Quinlan and Joe Worsley is too conservative.
I thought Ferris would go as the defender to Croft's attacking strength at 6. But the line-out balance looks very strange and with Worsley there and Quinlan this looks to me like a back row that is picked to defend. It looks a bit like the 1997 back row, where Tim Rodber and Lawrence Dallaglio went toe-to-toe with the Boks.
My major worry is that lightning doesn't strike twice and I hope we don't think we can just defend our way to a series win, because I don't think it will happen this time around.
Related Links
O'Connell to lead Lions but Borthwick and Jones miss out
Croft omission is a startling decision
Lions squad to have strong Irish flavour
Is Paul O'Connell the right choice as captain?
I would have liked to see Brian O'Driscoll captain the side. Paul is an outstanding player but I think it is a statement of intent about how you are going to play the game. I would have gone with O'Driscoll because he plays that bit wider and from there he has the ability to see the game slightly better than anyone in the pack. On top of that Ireland have done the Grand Slam for the first time in 61 years and I just felt that Brian deserved the chance to lead this team.
Does the squad lack the kind of flair you had been hoping to see?
Yes it does. I am pleased that Leigh Halfpenny and Keith Earls are in there because those two can go on to become anything they want to be. But the absence of guys like James Hook, Danny Cipriani or even Jonny Wilkinson leaves the Lions a little short on stardust. It's almost as if we are showing our hand because I am not sure we will be able to take the sort of gamble that might just turn a Test series with something completely different.
I would have liked to have seen Delon Armitage go as I thought he had a good Six Nations and can do something different. A lot of the onus will fall on the shoulders of Brian O'Driscoll to make things happen out wide. What is clear is that squad has been chosen on form and the guys who haven't done it this season aren't on the plane.
Are you worried that the Lions could be a little one-dimensional and happy to simply take South Africa on up front?
I think the Lions are wily enough to know they can't win this Test series by playing ten-man rugby. I would expect them to switch the point of attack and try to play a lot of short stuff around the fringes. It looks to me that Mike Phillips is nailed on to start at 9 and he will look to bring Shane Williams and Lee Byrne through around the base of the breakdown to try and get at the Boks there.
Can you see who will make the Test team out of this squad?
No I can't, but I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. I would expect it to be based around the Munster model, they have eight players in this squad, which is an incredible achievement. They have matched England in terms of numbers.
They have got the best team in Europe, but the squad is a reflection not only of the kind of game you want to play, but also the mentality that might be needed to win games. Since the last Lions tour, Munster have won two out of three European Cups and they believe they are on course for another one. These guys are winners.
As far as the Test team goes, I think you can probably predict around 50 per cent with half the places up for grabs, which is a good thing. You need to give everyone an incentive, the belief that they can make the Test team if they perform midweek. That was the problem with Clive Woodward's squad. He revealed his Test side early on and that left some of the squad demoralised.
Gethin Jenkins and Jerry Flannery will start in the front row, Paul O'Connell is obviously a certainty. I would expect David Wallace and Martyn Williams to both play in the back row, but I am not sure who will play as 6. Phillips will start at scrum half with Stephen Jones and Ronan O'Gara battling it out to start at 10.
I would expect Riki Flutey and O'Driscoll to start in the centre with Lee Byrne at full back. The wings are probably up for grabs, but I am happy to see Shane Williams included. He might not have had the best of seasons, but if the Lions can get him back to his best he has the ability to frighten the Boks with his pace.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article6141624.ece
Tom Croft omission is a startling decision
David Hands
The dominance of Ireland players is no great surprise in the 2009 Lions party but the number of close calls can be counted on the fingers of more than one hand. What more, for example, could Delon Armitage have done in his first season of international rugby with England, or Tom Croft in his second, or the Wales lock, Ian Gough, but it is these areas that the Lions will stand or fall.
It is not the automatic selections that make a successful tour but the back-up players who, as Lions history shows, come to the fore in the most unexpected way. No-one picked Tom Smith or Paul Wallace to be the test props on the 1997 trek to South Africa but they stepped up to play a major role in the winning of the series.
So Leigh Halfpenny's late charge with a successful Cardiff Blues side has carried him all the way to selection, possibly at the expense of Armitage. Both are back-three players, both can kick goals, though neither does so regularly for his club. Equally it will be a surprise if, in the event of injury in that area of the team, Armitage does not find his way south.
Perhaps the most fortunate players are the two who take Ireland's representation to 14, a greater number than ever before. Alan Quinlan, the 34-year-old flanker, and Keith Earls, the 21-year-old utility back, have ridden the Munster charger with wonderful success and convinced the selectors to take their side. With Quinlan they know what they will be getting, an abrasive individual who never takes a backward step but that he should have ousted Tom Croft from a place is a startling decision.
Related Links
Dallaglio: prepare for the most brutal test
'Team spirit' is vital component for Lions
Being thrown to the Lions is their just reward
Croft, the England blind-side flanker capable of playing lock, appeared to have turned himself into a certainty but not in the eyes of the Lions selectors. You could make an argument for Ugo Monye ahead of Mark Cueto - it may be that Monye's covering tackle on Thom Evans during the Calcutta Cup match last month tipped the scales in his favour - but Earls at this level is an unknown quantity.
He played against Canada in November and scored a try with his first touch of the ball but played no part in this year's RBS Six Nations Championship which ended, of course, with Ireland's first grand slam for 61 years. He and Quinlan both travelled with the squad but it is the Heineken Cup which has paved their way and Earls's ability to play centre, wing or full back together with his pace have been enough.
As expected, only two specialist fly halves travel and national captains have had a thin time of it: Paul O'Connell will lead the party in preference to Brian O'Driscoll (though Ireland's leader is an automatic midfield choice) but Steve Borthwick (England), Ryan Jones (Wales) and Mike Blair (Scotland) are resolutely out of favour.
Jones has made the biggest fall from grace. When he led Wales to the 2008 grand slam, his star was in the ascendant, particularly after the impact he made on the 2005 Lions tour in New Zealand. But both Wales and the Ospreys have lost their way this season and Jones, moved by Warren Gatland, his coach, from No 8 to blind-side flanker during the autumn internationals so that Andy Powell could be included, now finds himself left at home and Powell on the plane.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article6141400.ece
My First Lions Tour Diary, by Keith Earls Today joined a team called De Lyons. Haven't seen any tea yet. They wear Red though so must be OK.There are some fellas from outside Munster here who are not from New Zealand or wherever Mafi comes from.
POC and Quinnie told me not to speak to the Leinster boys, as they were a bad lot who might 'give me ideas' and that I might '; Get above myself'. Spent the rest of the day trying to stay under myself. This is not easy.
PLayed the first game against a team called Saffers. The ground was harder than in Thomond, and we played under something called the sun.
Scored three tries in the first half. Gerry Flannery warned me 'I was not bigger than the team' and that I had almost missed a tackle.
Concentrated on my defensive play in the second half so only got two tries. After the game Paulie called me a good lad and ruffled my hair and gave me a strawberry cream chupa chup. My favourite!
My Tour Diary by Alan Quinlan
Played first test. Managed to successfully goad the South Africans to attack me en masse. 6 sent off. Afterwards gave Schalk Berger back his jock-strap. Pilfering it in a ruck was what kicked it all off. What larks! He too it in good spirit, really, and it only took fourteen security guards to hold him back. Roll on next week, when I hope to bring home someone's ear as a nice souvenir of my time here.
Quote from: Declan on April 22, 2009, 01:21:47 PM
My First Lions Tour Diary, by Keith Earls Today joined a team called De Lyons. Haven't seen any tea yet. They wear Red though so must be OK.There are some fellas from outside Munster here who are not from New Zealand or wherever Mafi comes from.
POC and Quinnie told me not to speak to the Leinster boys, as they were a bad lot who might 'give me ideas' and that I might '; Get above myself'. Spent the rest of the day trying to stay under myself. This is not easy.
PLayed the first game against a team called Saffers. The ground was harder than in Thomond, and we played under something called the sun.
Scored three tries in the first half. Gerry Flannery warned me 'I was not bigger than the team' and that I had almost missed a tackle.
Concentrated on my defensive play in the second half so only got two tries. After the game Paulie called me a good lad and ruffled my hair and gave me a strawberry cream chupa chup. My favourite!
My Tour Diary by Alan Quinlan
Played first test. Managed to successfully goad the South Africans to attack me en masse. 6 sent off. Afterwards gave Schalk Berger back his jock-strap. Pilfering it in a ruck was what kicked it all off. What larks! He too it in good spirit, really, and it only took fourteen security guards to hold him back. Roll on next week, when I hope to bring home someone's ear as a nice souvenir of my time here.
:D :D :D :DGreat stuff Declan!
varition on the "theo goes to the world cup" diaries in 2006
Quote from: The GAA on April 22, 2009, 02:10:43 PM
varition on the "theo goes to the world cup" diaries in 2006
was thinking the same, twas sol who was dishing out the ice creams back then
has to be alan wyn jones in the second row with POC.
the partnership looks immense on paper, lets see how the do against argubly the best second row in the world.
Anyone thinking about going out there? Surprisingly there are some very decent flights still to be had ( £450 return) although as usual the package deals are a complete joke.
Shocked Ferris aims to do Ulster proud
By Tom Nelson
IRELAND flanker Stephen Ferris says it is an awesome feeling to be selected to travel with the British and Irish Lions to South Africa in the summer.
The 23-year-old flanker from Craigavon is the only Ulster representative on the 37-man squad, and will be one of a record 14 Irishmen to travel across the equator for the three Test series.
"It's now just a wonderful feeling. It's the highest honour in the game, the pinnacle of rugby to be on a Lions tour, an awesome feeling. To get the opportunity to get into the Test side is a great fillip, and I will be trying very hard to do that".
am i the only one who doesnt get the big deal about the lions? 4 pages of the examiner devoted to it today. Is Ferris serious? getting selected for the lions beats a grand slam or winning the 6 nations?
Quote from: magickingdom on April 22, 2009, 06:14:44 PM
Shocked Ferris aims to do Ulster proud
By Tom Nelson
IRELAND flanker Stephen Ferris says it is an awesome feeling to be selected to travel with the British and Irish Lions to South Africa in the summer.
The 23-year-old flanker from Craigavon is the only Ulster representative on the 37-man squad, and will be one of a record 14 Irishmen to travel across the equator for the three Test series.
"It's now just a wonderful feeling. It's the highest honour in the game, the pinnacle of rugby to be on a Lions tour, an awesome feeling. To get the opportunity to get into the Test side is a great fillip, and I will be trying very hard to do that".
am i the only one who doesnt get the big deal about the lions? 4 pages of the examiner devoted to it today. Is Ferris serious? getting selected for the lions beats a grand slam or winning the 6 nations?
I think O'Connell was a bit more circumspect in the press conference yesterday. He said while it was a big honour to be captain he hadn't grown up dreaming about playing for the Lions. His dreams were mostly about playing for his club Young Munster, his province Munster and then Ireland. The Lions never really featured for him really until he was selected for the last tour.
The fact that Riki Flutey is going on a lions tour as a possible starter in the test side tells you the large gulf in standard at the minute between the northern and southern hemisphere. Actually he is the 1st guy to play against and for the lions (presuming he does!)as he came on for the wellington lions on the NZ tour in 05.
SA to win 2-1 and thats being kind.
Quote from: magickingdom on April 22, 2009, 06:14:44 PM
Shocked Ferris aims to do Ulster proud
By Tom Nelson
IRELAND flanker Stephen Ferris says it is an awesome feeling to be selected to travel with the British and Irish Lions to South Africa in the summer.
The 23-year-old flanker from Craigavon is the only Ulster representative on the 37-man squad, and will be one of a record 14 Irishmen to travel across the equator for the three Test series.
"It's now just a wonderful feeling. It's the highest honour in the game, the pinnacle of rugby to be on a Lions tour, an awesome feeling. To get the opportunity to get into the Test side is a great fillip, and I will be trying very hard to do that".
am i the only one who doesnt get the big deal about the lions? 4 pages of the examiner devoted to it today. Is Ferris serious? getting selected for the lions beats a grand slam or winning the 6 nations?
Have you seen "Living with Lions" yet mk? I would have followed the last couple of Tours but until I had watched the behind the scenes stuff of the '97 Tour I never really understood the whole hoopla about it.
It's kind of hard to describe but it is a massive task to assemble a group of lads from 4 different Teams/Countries to go and take on either of the 3 best teams in the world in the space of a couple of months. Because of the fact it used to be done by amateurs for so many years means that it is steeped in tradition and the fact that the professional game is still in relative infancy means that the tradition is not lost on a lot of people. Over the years as Rugby gets more and more popular and the people who did play as amateurs begin to disappear the Lions and its tradition may also but I for one am still looking forward to the Tour and it would be good to put one over on the World Champions.
Quote from: magickingdom on April 22, 2009, 06:14:44 PM
am i the only one who doesnt get the big deal about the lions? 4 pages of the examiner devoted to it today. Is Ferris serious? getting selected for the lions beats a grand slam or winning the 6 nations?
The picking of the squad and the team would interest me, just like the All Stars in GAA.
Beyond that, I wouldn't care that much. I still think there is a whiff of colonialism to it all.
The tours are now very commercialised nowadays, so you won't be able to avoid the hype. :)
Quote from: screenexile on April 22, 2009, 10:32:11 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on April 22, 2009, 06:14:44 PM
Shocked Ferris aims to do Ulster proud
By Tom Nelson
IRELAND flanker Stephen Ferris says it is an awesome feeling to be selected to travel with the British and Irish Lions to South Africa in the summer.
The 23-year-old flanker from Craigavon is the only Ulster representative on the 37-man squad, and will be one of a record 14 Irishmen to travel across the equator for the three Test series.
"It's now just a wonderful feeling. It's the highest honour in the game, the pinnacle of rugby to be on a Lions tour, an awesome feeling. To get the opportunity to get into the Test side is a great fillip, and I will be trying very hard to do that".
am i the only one who doesnt get the big deal about the lions? 4 pages of the examiner devoted to it today. Is Ferris serious? getting selected for the lions beats a grand slam or winning the 6 nations?
Have you seen "Living with Lions" yet mk? I would have followed the last couple of Tours but until I had watched the behind the scenes stuff of the '97 Tour I never really understood the whole hoopla about it.
It's kind of hard to describe but it is a massive task to assemble a group of lads from 4 different Teams/Countries to go and take on either of the 3 best teams in the world in the space of a couple of months. Because of the fact it used to be done by amateurs for so many years means that it is steeped in tradition and the fact that the professional game is still in relative infancy means that the tradition is not lost on a lot of people. Over the years as Rugby gets more and more popular and the people who did play as amateurs begin to disappear the Lions and its tradition may also but I for one am still looking forward to the Tour and it would be good to put one over on the World Champions.
That is a great dvd to watch if you want to know what it means to be a loin and how hard a task it really is. some class stuff in 97. you could see how close the players from each nation were in their own groups but came together to try beat the World Cup holders.
I would recommend watching it anyway, even the girlfriend found it interesting
Tankie,
I can't ignore it anymore it's LION not loin, please spell it correctly, that for some reason is driving me lula >:(
As for the Lions, a testament to how well Irish rugby is doing but the last tour turned me off the Lions so hard to get excited but I will probably sit down and watch the games maybe that might ignite my interest until then I'll just avoid the hyperbole.....
Quote from: screenexile on April 22, 2009, 10:32:11 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on April 22, 2009, 06:14:44 PM
Shocked Ferris aims to do Ulster proud
By Tom Nelson
IRELAND flanker Stephen Ferris says it is an awesome feeling to be selected to travel with the British and Irish Lions to South Africa in the summer.
The 23-year-old flanker from Craigavon is the only Ulster representative on the 37-man squad, and will be one of a record 14 Irishmen to travel across the equator for the three Test series.
"It's now just a wonderful feeling. It's the highest honour in the game, the pinnacle of rugby to be on a Lions tour, an awesome feeling. To get the opportunity to get into the Test side is a great fillip, and I will be trying very hard to do that".
am i the only one who doesnt get the big deal about the lions? 4 pages of the examiner devoted to it today. Is Ferris serious? getting selected for the lions beats a grand slam or winning the 6 nations?
Have you seen "Living with Lions" yet mk? I would have followed the last couple of Tours but until I had watched the behind the scenes stuff of the '97 Tour I never really understood the whole hoopla about it.
It's kind of hard to describe but it is a massive task to assemble a group of lads from 4 different Teams/Countries to go and take on either of the 3 best teams in the world in the space of a couple of months. Because of the fact it used to be done by amateurs for so many years means that it is steeped in tradition and the fact that the professional game is still in relative infancy means that the tradition is not lost on a lot of people. Over the years as Rugby gets more and more popular and the people who did play as amateurs begin to disappear the Lions and its tradition may also but I for one am still looking forward to the Tour and it would be good to put one over on the World Champions.
Why ??? Personally I find it difficult to care about the Lions after the last tour. Two words "Woodward" and "Campbell". They took the tradition of the Lions and booted it up the arse with spin and commercialism.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 23, 2009, 09:04:06 AM
Tankie,
I can't ignore it anymore it's LION not loin, please spell it correctly, that for some reason is driving me lula >:(
As for the Lions, a testament to how well Irish rugby is doing but the last tour turned me off the Lions so hard to get excited but I will probably sit down and watch the games maybe that might ignite my interest until then I'll just avoid the hyperbole.....
sorry Dinny, i noticed i was miss spelling Lion lastnight but i was to lazy to go back and edit my posts. I will know better next time.... ;)
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 23, 2009, 09:32:37 AM
Quote from: screenexile on April 22, 2009, 10:32:11 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on April 22, 2009, 06:14:44 PM
Shocked Ferris aims to do Ulster proud
By Tom Nelson
IRELAND flanker Stephen Ferris says it is an awesome feeling to be selected to travel with the British and Irish Lions to South Africa in the summer.
The 23-year-old flanker from Craigavon is the only Ulster representative on the 37-man squad, and will be one of a record 14 Irishmen to travel across the equator for the three Test series.
"It's now just a wonderful feeling. It's the highest honour in the game, the pinnacle of rugby to be on a Lions tour, an awesome feeling. To get the opportunity to get into the Test side is a great fillip, and I will be trying very hard to do that".
am i the only one who doesnt get the big deal about the lions? 4 pages of the examiner devoted to it today. Is Ferris serious? getting selected for the lions beats a grand slam or winning the 6 nations?
Have you seen "Living with Lions" yet mk? I would have followed the last couple of Tours but until I had watched the behind the scenes stuff of the '97 Tour I never really understood the whole hoopla about it.
It's kind of hard to describe but it is a massive task to assemble a group of lads from 4 different Teams/Countries to go and take on either of the 3 best teams in the world in the space of a couple of months. Because of the fact it used to be done by amateurs for so many years means that it is steeped in tradition and the fact that the professional game is still in relative infancy means that the tradition is not lost on a lot of people. Over the years as Rugby gets more and more popular and the people who did play as amateurs begin to disappear the Lions and its tradition may also but I for one am still looking forward to the Tour and it would be good to put one over on the World Champions.
Why ??? Personally I find it difficult to care about the Lions after the last tour. Two words "Woodward" and "Campbell". They took the tradition of the Lions and booted it up the arse with spin and commercialism.
Just because two pricks ruined a tour you cannot jsut cut the Lions - atleast Woodward got what was coming to him and is still seen as a joke in Rugby...
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 23, 2009, 09:04:06 AM
Tankie,
I can't ignore it anymore it's LION not loin, please spell it correctly, that for some reason is driving me lula >:(
As for the Lions, a testament to how well Irish rugby is doing but the last tour turned me off the Lions so hard to get excited but I will probably sit down and watch the games maybe that might ignite my interest until then I'll just avoid the hyperbole.....
I think it would be better if they were called the 'Loins'. Some of the Leinster lads already pronounce it that way.
You'd get a lot more traveling if it was a 'Loins' tour.
http://irishlions.blogspot.com/ (http://irishlions.blogspot.com/)
This one made me laugh, although my sense humour is a bit different to some on this board....
OMG ! OMG! by Luke
Dude. Was toolin round the green, ya?, when his Bodness manifested via the mobile. 'Cuz !' I said, turning down Elbow and waving at some chick while adjusting the hairdo. He told me to shut the fu*k up. Its a thing we do, ya know? We're like that, really.
"Listen." He goes. "You're a Lion. Don't think it means anything, cos it doesn't."
I nod, smile and give him an old thumbs up, forgetting I'm on the phone, ya? But He knows. He always knows.
"Rob is with you, isn't he?" He says then. The K-man is sitting next to me, but he's drawing his finger across his throat and shaking his head and the sweat is running off him. Its disgusting, really, but he's always like that about the Bodster. I'm just considering whether to risk a lie when the Voice comes down.
"Tell that little pissant he's made it too, and that I KNOW WHAT HE DID."
Rob can hear the last bit, and he goes green and a little whimper escapes him, the woofter. I decide to try and head this off at the pass.
" Thanks for the news, Cuz." I said. " Grand Slam winning Captain, and now captaining the Lions too, eh? You must be soooooo stoked!"
There's a click on the end of the line, and a distant rumble of thunder. Rob gets out of the car and starts running. As if that would help.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 23, 2009, 11:29:36 AM
http://irishlions.blogspot.com/ (http://irishlions.blogspot.com/)
This one made me laugh, although my sense humour is a bit different to some on this board....
OMG ! OMG! by Luke
Dude. Was toolin round the green, ya?, when his Bodness manifested via the mobile. 'Cuz !' I said, turning down Elbow and waving at some chick while adjusting the hairdo. He told me to shut the f**k up. Its a thing we do, ya know? We're like that, really.
"Listen." He goes. "You're a Lion. Don't think it means anything, cos it doesn't."
I nod, smile and give him an old thumbs up, forgetting I'm on the phone, ya? But He knows. He always knows.
"Rob is with you, isn't he?" He says then. The K-man is sitting next to me, but he's drawing his finger across his throat and shaking his head and the sweat is running off him. Its disgusting, really, but he's always like that about the Bodster. I'm just considering whether to risk a lie when the Voice comes down.
"Tell that little pissant he's made it too, and that I KNOW WHAT HE DID."
Rob can hear the last bit, and he goes green and a little whimper escapes him, the woofter. I decide to try and head this off at the pass.
" Thanks for the news, Cuz." I said. " Grand Slam winning Captain, and now captaining the Lions too, eh? You must be soooooo stoked!"
There's a click on the end of the line, and a distant rumble of thunder. Rob gets out of the car and starts running. As if that would help.
I wasn't all the impressed with that one but thought the Munster ones where class .
Lions will be weaker without Delon Armitage and Tom Croft
Nobody is ever completely happy when a touring squad is chosen in any sport; the recently announced British and Irish Lions squad is no different. There are four or five choices I could argue, but only the exclusion of England's Delon Armitage and Tom Croft would see me debate with vehemence.
Both players excelled during the recent Six Nations and would have given the Lions options they may not have if they are forced to choose between the gameplans that I have set out below.
Armitage's counter-attack running is better than that of the full-backs chosen and although he may lack the physical bulk of Lee Byrne, this has not proved an exploitable weakness. His speed would also have made him an option on the wing.
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Gatland and Edwards cleared for Lions Croft was the outstanding player in the England's last two games. He is quick, solid and his line-out work was so good that it was to him and not the captain, Steve Borthwick, that England threw to most often.
The South African line-out is the best in the world and that phase of play is now so important that a team has to be secure on its own throw. If it can challenge the opposition throw consistently, it goes a long way towards enabling a team to dictate the areas of the field in which it plays, and ultimately its chances of winning games.
What is a concern is the choice of only two players in the full-back and fly-half berths. Injuries do not occur at convenient moments and a Thursday casualty in either position would leave the Saturday bench exposed.
If the remaining player is injured early in a game, someone will have to move position and even if he has had a few runs in training, this is nowhere near the same as playing under pressure. Even if a replacement is flown out, he will have no time to acquaint himself with the Lions' moves and calls.
From the players picked, Ian McGeechan has given himself options in meeting the South African challenge. He can seek to match and even outdo the Springboks in the physical battle in the pack and at the breakdown. If this can be achieved, the Lions will be halfway home in the contest because their opponents' game, whilst athletic and powerful, is straight forward.
Criticism of the lack of Scottish players is wrong. McGeechan, though residing in England for many years, is a proud Scot; he has no natural antipathy and would not have omitted Scottish players he thought were up to the job.
Mike Blair is unlucky, but Ross Ford has only his own poor form throughout the Six Nations to blame. I had Ford at the top of my list of hookers at the start of the tournament, from whence he sadly faded.
Alternatively, McGeechan can attempt to pick players who will secure their own first-phase possession, but are fast around the field. By moving the point of attack and contact, keeping a huge pack turning and on the move, the Lions might recycle ball without having to engage in too many substantial clashes.
Unfortunately, this approach requires practice as it means playing the ball early, passing out of the tackle, or laying the ball as soon as a tackled player goes to ground.
All of these moves have elements of risk and rely on other players being in the right position at the right time. If the Lions attempt this and don't execute the strategy with precision they will end up turning over a lot of ball, which is usually a decisive factor in determining which team comes out on top.
The tactical approach taken will be worth study, but whatever type of game the Lions play, you can be assured that it will not be a contest for the faint-hearted. Bring it on.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/5201274/Lions-will-be-weaker-without-Delon-Armitage-and-Tom-Croft.html
Lions is a great Rugby tradition and I reckon this tour will restore some of the pride and honour that Woodward tried to dismantle on last tour. Would love to go on the trip some year.
The players seem to eat it up as well, even the younger players and as it only ever comes round every 4 years, it means that a player will prob only ever have 2 shots at making it in his prime.
Have never heard of a player making themselves unavailable for it this year. When that happens it will time to pull the pin. Unlikely to ever happen in my opinion.
QuoteHave never heard of a player making themselves unavailable for it this year. When that happens it will time to pull the pin. Unlikely to ever happen in my opinion.
Comsidering they get about €50k for 3 weeks work I can't imagine too many turing it down...
Do they? fcking hell
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 23, 2009, 04:18:16 PM
QuoteHave never heard of a player making themselves unavailable for it this year. When that happens it will time to pull the pin. Unlikely to ever happen in my opinion.
Comsidering they get about €50k for 3 weeks work I can't imagine too many turing it down...
Thought it was at least 10 wk of a get togther. Not bad work if you can get it, mind but doubt money is a big factor in it.
Thinks it stg£30,000 a man basic. Isn't bad going.
Quote from: Tankie on April 23, 2009, 10:55:25 AM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 23, 2009, 09:32:37 AM
Quote from: screenexile on April 22, 2009, 10:32:11 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on April 22, 2009, 06:14:44 PM
Shocked Ferris aims to do Ulster proud
By Tom Nelson
IRELAND flanker Stephen Ferris says it is an awesome feeling to be selected to travel with the British and Irish Lions to South Africa in the summer.
The 23-year-old flanker from Craigavon is the only Ulster representative on the 37-man squad, and will be one of a record 14 Irishmen to travel across the equator for the three Test series.
"It's now just a wonderful feeling. It's the highest honour in the game, the pinnacle of rugby to be on a Lions tour, an awesome feeling. To get the opportunity to get into the Test side is a great fillip, and I will be trying very hard to do that".
am i the only one who doesnt get the big deal about the lions? 4 pages of the examiner devoted to it today. Is Ferris serious? getting selected for the lions beats a grand slam or winning the 6 nations?
Have you seen "Living with Lions" yet mk? I would have followed the last couple of Tours but until I had watched the behind the scenes stuff of the '97 Tour I never really understood the whole hoopla about it.
It's kind of hard to describe but it is a massive task to assemble a group of lads from 4 different Teams/Countries to go and take on either of the 3 best teams in the world in the space of a couple of months. Because of the fact it used to be done by amateurs for so many years means that it is steeped in tradition and the fact that the professional game is still in relative infancy means that the tradition is not lost on a lot of people. Over the years as Rugby gets more and more popular and the people who did play as amateurs begin to disappear the Lions and its tradition may also but I for one am still looking forward to the Tour and it would be good to put one over on the World Champions.
Why ??? Personally I find it difficult to care about the Lions after the last tour. Two words "Woodward" and "Campbell". They took the tradition of the Lions and booted it up the arse with spin and commercialism.
Just because two pricks ruined a tour you cannot jsut cut the Lions - atleast Woodward got what was coming to him and is still seen as a joke in Rugby...
Woodward seen as a joke in rugby? Really? Whatever about the 2005 Lions, he put together one of the greatest teams of all time who were outstanding from 1 to 22. The win against the All-Blacks in New Zealand is one of the best team performances I've ever seen.
Sorry it's about 6 weeks I think from last week in May to July 1st. That would be their basic, once you throw in the sponsorship, appearances newspaper columns etc the top guys could earn close to 100K
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 23, 2009, 05:43:47 PM
Sorry it's about 6 weeks I think from last week in May to July 1st. That would be their basic, once you throw in the sponsorship, appearances newspaper columns etc the top guys could earn close to 100K
Will these be curtailed after the last tour? Didn't some players spill alot into their weekly blogs/reports during the tour. Austin Healy been one.
Quote from: The GAA on April 23, 2009, 03:39:05 PM
Lions will be weaker without Delon Armitage and Tom Croft
Nobody is ever completely happy when a touring squad is chosen in any sport; the recently announced British and Irish Lions squad is no different. There are four or five choices I could argue, but only the exclusion of England's Delon Armitage and Tom Croft would see me debate with vehemence.
Both players excelled during the recent Six Nations and would have given the Lions options they may not have if they are forced to choose between the gameplans that I have set out below.
Armitage's counter-attack running is better than that of the full-backs chosen and although he may lack the physical bulk of Lee Byrne, this has not proved an exploitable weakness. His speed would also have made him an option on the wing.
This is really starting to piss me off about Armitage and Croft. Croft played twice in the 6 Nations: once aganist an awful French performance that managed to make Steve Borthwick look good and once in a dour match against Scotland. English papers (that *insert personal insult of choice here* Steve Jones in the English Times in particular) speak as if he was pencilled in for a starting spot on the Test XV. Some people might not have noticed it, but the standout number 6 in the 6 Nations was Ferris by a country mile. McGeechan has clearly decided to take the Boks on up front with physicality, so I have no doubt that when picking the squad, he had Ferris in his head for the Test spot, and wanted another tough bastard who loves getting stuck in to come along, hence Quinlan's inclusion. If anyone (I know English people don't, the world doesn't exist beyond the overhyped Guinness Premiership to most English columnists. For some reason they still have the cheek to look down on the Magners League. Three out of four Heineken Cup semi-finalists anyone?) bothered there arse to watch the Magners League, they'd recognise the form Quinlan has been in recently has been outstanding. A lot is also being made about the fact that Croft is a line out option. Is Ferris not or something? Never mind Croft, if anyone in the back row was unlucky, it was Denis Leamy.
As for Armitage, I can really only speak based on the 6 Nations. I've seen bits of Premiership highlights and I know Conor O'Shea is a big fan of his. He does indeed look good, but based on the international games, Byrne and Kearney were far superior. Kearney is as safe under a high ball as any full back on the planet and looks to run immediately, and Byrne is perhaps the best strike runner in the Northern Hemisphere. A lot of the press are talking about the benefits of Armitage's "massive boot"- I wasn't aware he was any longer than either Byrne or Kearney, each of whom can absolutely leather the thing. McGeechan decided to take two specialist full-backs, and he picked the two best based on their international performances. If Armitage had travelled, it would have been as a utility back, and there can be no real complaints about Halfpenny getting in- he's been outstanding for Kearney. And can kick. Perhaps Armitage is slightly unlucky, but the outrage some people are insinuating? Bollocks.
Croft's omission is extraordinary- a class act and would give something different. Its one of the most one dimensional Lions pack in history. I'm baffled by Ellis's inclusion ahead of Blair. Ellis can't make the leicester team regularly. They are simply trying to match the Boks for size and weight in the pack. Whether its the best policy time will tell- but there is a lack of flexibility in that squad if it goes pear shaped. I'm very concerned about scrum half and outhalf.
No problem with O Gara and Jones but where is the option to change things. No point in picking one and having the other on the bench if it goes pear shaped-because they both play exactly the same way. Scrum half will be a struggle- because the Lions haven't the class the Boks have there.
Have to win the first test otherwise its curtains. I'll be honest if Mc Gechan wasn't there I wouldn't give the Lions a prayer.
100k for ten weeks is a relative pittance compared to soccer, golf, tennis .
Rugby players and NH jockeys underpaid IMO.
Quote from: gallsman on April 23, 2009, 05:59:16 PM
This is really starting to piss me off about Armitage and Croft. Croft played twice in the 6 Nations: once aganist an awful French performance that managed to make Steve Borthwick look good and once in a dour match against Scotland. English papers (that *insert personal insult of choice here* Steve Jones in the English Times in particular) speak as if he was pencilled in for a starting spot on the Test XV. Some people might not have noticed it, but the standout number 6 in the 6 Nations was Ferris by a country mile. McGeechan has clearly decided to take the Boks on up front with physicality, so I have no doubt that when picking the squad, he had Ferris in his head for the Test spot, and wanted another tough b**tard who loves getting stuck in to come along, hence Quinlan's inclusion. If anyone (I know English people don't, the world doesn't exist beyond the overhyped Guinness Premiership to most English columnists. For some reason they still have the cheek to look down on the Magners League. Three out of four Heineken Cup semi-finalists anyone?) bothered there arse to watch the Magners League, they'd recognise the form Quinlan has been in recently has been outstanding. A lot is also being made about the fact that Croft is a line out option. Is Ferris not or something? Never mind Croft, if anyone in the back row was unlucky, it was Denis Leamy.
As for Armitage, I can really only speak based on the 6 Nations. I've seen bits of Premiership highlights and I know Conor O'Shea is a big fan of his. He does indeed look good, but based on the international games, Byrne and Kearney were far superior. Kearney is as safe under a high ball as any full back on the planet and looks to run immediately, and Byrne is perhaps the best strike runner in the Northern Hemisphere. A lot of the press are talking about the benefits of Armitage's "massive boot"- I wasn't aware he was any longer than either Byrne or Kearney, each of whom can absolutely leather the thing. McGeechan decided to take two specialist full-backs, and he picked the two best based on their international performances. If Armitage had travelled, it would have been as a utility back, and there can be no real complaints about Halfpenny getting in- he's been outstanding for Kearney. And can kick. Perhaps Armitage is slightly unlucky, but the outrage some people are insinuating? Bollocks.
Well said
Quote from: gallsman on April 23, 2009, 05:59:16 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 23, 2009, 03:39:05 PM
Lions will be weaker without Delon Armitage and Tom Croft
Nobody is ever completely happy when a touring squad is chosen in any sport; the recently announced British and Irish Lions squad is no different. There are four or five choices I could argue, but only the exclusion of England's Delon Armitage and Tom Croft would see me debate with vehemence.
Both players excelled during the recent Six Nations and would have given the Lions options they may not have if they are forced to choose between the gameplans that I have set out below.
Armitage's counter-attack running is better than that of the full-backs chosen and although he may lack the physical bulk of Lee Byrne, this has not proved an exploitable weakness. His speed would also have made him an option on the wing.
This is really starting to piss me off about Armitage and Croft. Croft played twice in the 6 Nations: once aganist an awful French performance that managed to make Steve Borthwick look good and once in a dour match against Scotland. English papers (that *insert personal insult of choice here* Steve Jones in the English Times in particular) speak as if he was pencilled in for a starting spot on the Test XV. Some people might not have noticed it, but the standout number 6 in the 6 Nations was Ferris by a country mile. McGeechan has clearly decided to take the Boks on up front with physicality, so I have no doubt that when picking the squad, he had Ferris in his head for the Test spot, and wanted another tough b**tard who loves getting stuck in to come along, hence Quinlan's inclusion. If anyone (I know English people don't, the world doesn't exist beyond the overhyped Guinness Premiership to most English columnists. For some reason they still have the cheek to look down on the Magners League. Three out of four Heineken Cup semi-finalists anyone?) bothered there arse to watch the Magners League, they'd recognise the form Quinlan has been in recently has been outstanding. A lot is also being made about the fact that Croft is a line out option. Is Ferris not or something? Never mind Croft, if anyone in the back row was unlucky, it was Denis Leamy.
As for Armitage, I can really only speak based on the 6 Nations. I've seen bits of Premiership highlights and I know Conor O'Shea is a big fan of his. He does indeed look good, but based on the international games, Byrne and Kearney were far superior. Kearney is as safe under a high ball as any full back on the planet and looks to run immediately, and Byrne is perhaps the best strike runner in the Northern Hemisphere. A lot of the press are talking about the benefits of Armitage's "massive boot"- I wasn't aware he was any longer than either Byrne or Kearney, each of whom can absolutely leather the thing. McGeechan decided to take two specialist full-backs, and he picked the two best based on their international performances. If Armitage had travelled, it would have been as a utility back, and there can be no real complaints about Halfpenny getting in- he's been outstanding for Kearney. And can kick. Perhaps Armitage is slightly unlucky, but the outrage some people are insinuating? Bollocks.
I think Armitage was unluckier than Croft. Croft will be a very good player and already is an excellent lineout option but maybe lacks a bit of physicality to take on the Boks right now.
Armitage genuinely had a very good 6 Nations and I was certain he would get selected especially as he can also play wing. Kearney if we're being honest had a fairly average 6 Nations although he was excellent last year. I thought all three full-backs would tour but Armitage ended up getting squeezed out by a combination of Earls and Halfpenny.
Based on the last 6 weeks Armitage should have been selected ahead of Kearney. i still think they have the ill fated notion Kearney is a winger and thst why he got the nod. Croft is already a very good player- I fail to understand what people don't see in him. In general english players are over hyped -for example- easter,worsely,ellis,flutey etc.
But Croft is class and he's been class since he was a kid. i've seen him destroy Irish teams at underage level. He's be ideal for the hard grounds over there rather than bringing a woodcutter like Worseley.
Tomas O'Leary has just been carried off the field on a Stretcher with a serious looking leg injury. Paul O'Connell put his head in his hands (sitting in the stands) when he was told about the extent of the injury. Let's hope its not too bad :-\
Apparently he's away to hospital with a suspected broken leg. Awful news
Quote from: FermPundit on April 24, 2009, 07:55:16 PM
Tomas O'Leary has just been carried off the field on a Stretcher with a serious looking leg injury. Paul O'Connell put his head in his hands (sitting in the stands) when he was told about the extent of the injury. Let's hope its not too bad :-\
Apparently he's away to hospital with a suspected broken leg. Awful news
Broken ankle someone said on TV. Devastating for him.
What a disaster for O'Leary. Still it is not the end of the world he won a Heineken Cup and a grand slam in the last year and at least earned his Lions selection. Never a good time for these things but if it had happened at this time last year he never would have won any of these things. I heard the team lineup today and that they were resting O'Connell today and the rest of the first 15 were playing. I thought to myself that they were right to rest O'Connell and they maybe should have rested half of the rest of the team as well but that is the way way things go, bad luck Tomas and get well soon. I rate this guy really highly and even though they may not know it the Lions will miss him on the tour
A big loss for Munster but they have Stringer who has been in good form to come in. They will still win the European Cup though.
In relation to Armitage, he is a very good player but he was beaten to the 2 spots fairly and squarely by Byrne and Kearney who are superb, I thought they might have taken 3 full backs including Armitage but they didn't and i thought they might have taken Sackey on the wing as well instead of Halfpenny or one of the Irish lads but that didn't happen either.
Who is the third choice scrum half at Munster after O'Leary and Stringer?
thats desperate sad news about tomas if its true
Its AZ or KerryMike I think
This looks bad for O'Leary, i really hope something aint broken and he can make a quick recovery but look at all reports they are saying its the ankle or the leg that is broken. Very sad news.
Quote from: FermPundit on April 24, 2009, 09:42:46 PM
Who is the third choice scrum half at Munster after O'Leary and Stringer?
mike prendergast. Came on in ravenhill earlier in the year.
Devastated for TOL. Such bad luck. really am sick for him. Missing a euro cup tilt and a lions tour will be hard for the chap. But that wheat happens in sport. I would expect Dwayne Peel, Mike Blair or even perhaps Strings to slot in for him. Luckily for the lions, they are quite strong in the scrum 1/2 area.
i have often heard of classic video coverage from the changin rooms prior to the start of the games and maybe at half time/full time?? i heard various cocahes mention it as a way of inspiring people etc,is any of it on u tube or does anyone know the kinda stuff im talkin bout??
Any suggestions too replace O'Leary?
I think we will need the 99 call again to win this tour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnPVfbG3rVM
Quote from: The Pundit on April 24, 2009, 10:46:05 PM
I would expect Dwayne Peel, Mike Blair or even perhaps Strings to slot in for him. Luckily for the lions, they are quite strong in the scrum 1/2 area.
I don't think they are quite strong, but there are many reasonably good scrum halves at a similar level. Take the top 3 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scots and 3 or 4 English scrum halves, and there's feck all between any of them, but none would get in a souther hemisphere team.
Chris Cusiter is apparently favourite, but no decision will be made for a week or two. I'd gamble on Danny Care.
Quote from: Hound on April 29, 2009, 07:46:47 AM
Quote from: The Pundit on April 24, 2009, 10:46:05 PM
I would expect Dwayne Peel, Mike Blair or even perhaps Strings to slot in for him. Luckily for the lions, they are quite strong in the scrum 1/2 area.
I don't think they are quite strong, but there are many reasonably good scrum halves at a similar level. Take the top 3 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scots and 3 or 4 English scrum halves, and there's feck all between any of them, but none would get in a souther hemisphere team.
Chris Cusiter is apparently favourite, but no decision will be made for a week or two. I'd gamble on Danny Care.
I would say Blair will get in just to bump up the Scottish numbers
I'd give it to care or Peel as they offer something a little different and can make things happen. The only thing is physicality wise both are on the light side which would seem to go against McGeechan's philosophy for this tour. I don't think they can bring Stringer in and I would have thought Mike Blair would be before Cusiter anyway. It's a 3 horse race in my book between Care, Blair and Peel.
Quote from: screenexile on April 29, 2009, 02:24:21 PM
I'd give it to care or Peel as they offer something a little different and can make things happen. The only thing is physicality wise both are on the light side which would seem to go against McGeechan's philosophy for this tour. I don't think they can bring Stringer in and I would have thought Mike Blair would be before Cusiter anyway. It's a 3 horse race in my book between Care, Blair and Peel.
My choice would be Care
I agree Care is fair to small , Blair is my front runner
Blair for me. he is the best scrumhalf, even if his form dipped during the 6 nations. i never understand the obsession with form in the 6 nations dictating lions selection. Its a long way from that to the tour and those who were in form in autumn, and dipped for spring, will more likely be in form by the summer again.
Quote from: bigfrank on April 25, 2009, 06:32:25 PM
i have often heard of classic video coverage from the changin rooms prior to the start of the games and maybe at half time/full time?? i heard various cocahes mention it as a way of inspiring people etc,is any of it on u tube or does anyone know the kinda stuff im talkin bout??
Here's some of the stuff from Living With Lions:
Forwards Meeting before 1st Test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc3S6iGmUjI
Game v Natal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BOG7-sFOU4
Game v Transvaal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYuWBqibnQ4
Forgot how young Eric Miller was on that tour
Anyone know the rule why Flutey can play for the Lions but the likes of Mafi and Elsom can't?
Not that I think any of them should be allowed, but just wondering.
He decided to declare for England under the residency rule, played this year so is elegible - Elsom will probably return to play for the Aussies, but assume if he fulfilled the criteria for Irish selection and decided to declare he would also be elegible.
They changed the rules as well though. If you've played any representative rugby for your country at senior level (even 7s) you cannot play for another country.
Lads like Dominguez playing for Argentina and Italy are a thing of the past. Hence Mafi and Warwick are ineligible for Ireland, and thus the lions. Flutey was capped underage I think, so he's okay. As for Elstrom, did he not get a few Australian Caps?
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2009, 12:49:02 PM
They changed the rules as well though. If you've played any representative rugby for your country at senior level (even 7s) you cannot play for another country.
Lads like Dominguez playing for Argentina and Italy are a thing of the past. Hence Mafi and Warwick are ineligible for Ireland, and thus the lions. Flutey was capped underage I think, so he's okay. As for Elstrom, did he not get a few Australian Caps?
If you're talking about Elsom he has 58 aussie caps
Makes sense. Elsom has played for the Wallabies, and they're pretty keen to get him back! Flutey played for NZ all the way up according to Wiki and played against the Lions!!
I may be badly off base on this, but I don't think Flutey can have played at senior level for NZ. He may have played against the lions for one of the provinces over there.
As for Elsom (I always call him Elstrom for some reason) I thought I was raving for a minute. I knew he was capped by the Aussies. He cannot ever play for IReland or the Lions in that case. Unless i am completely deluded.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2009, 01:10:46 PM
I may be badly off base on this, but I don't think Flutey can have played at senior level for NZ. He may have played against the lions for one of the provinces over there.
No, you're spot on - he did play for the NZ Maoiris so I'd imagine it was with them when he played against the Lions, never capped at Senior level, only underage as you said.
If he plays in this tour he'll be the first to play both for and against the Lions according to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riki_Flutey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riki_Flutey)
Shanklin faces anxious Lions wait
Thursday, 7 May 2009 16:17
Ireland's Gordon D'Arcy may yet end up in the Lions squad after it emerged that an injury to Wales centre Tom Shanklin could see him miss the tour to South Africa.
Shanklin injured his shoulder late on in the Cardiff Blues Magners League victory win against the Newport-Gwent Dragons last night. He was taken for an X-Ray after the game and will now have an MRI scan to assess the extent of the damage.
The injury is believed to be a dislocation of the shoulder.
A Lions statement said: 'The Cardiff Blues medical team will hopefully have a more detailed update available by the weekend.'
Ex-Wales international Bob Norster, who is now the Cardiff Blues chief executive, added: 'He has taken a nasty clout to the shoulder, they are just assessing him and getting him down to the hospital for an X-ray and we will know a bit more later on.
'We will make a proper assessment there with the medics.'
D'Arcy's omission from the original squad came as a surprise to the South Africans, whose coach Pieter De Villiers had rated the 41-times capped Ireland international the best inside centre in the world.
D'Arcy's form for Ireland in the latter part of the RBS 6 Nations, and his strong performance for Leinster in their Heineken Cup semi-final victory over Munster on Saturday also make him a strong candidate.
Scotland centre Max Evans, Wales' out-half and inside centre James Hook and Wasps player Josh Lewsey, who has retired from international rugby, are others who could enter the frame.#
But the Lions will be keen not to see another member of the original touring party exit the squad. Shanklin is the second member of the original Lions party named by Ian McGeechan to go on the doubtful list in recent days.
Alan Quinlan faces a disciplinary hearing over an incident involving contact with the face of Leinster second row Leo Cullen during that Munster defeat to Leinster on Saturday and must avoid a long suspension to retain his place in the touring group.
Quinlan's Munster team-mate Tomás O'Leary is definitely out of the Tour after breaking his leg during Munster's Magners League match against Llanelli in April.
A replacement scrum-half has yet to be called into the squad, although Scotland captain Mike Blair is the favourite to get the nod.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2009/0507/shanklint.html
Shanklin's out according to the 9 O'Clock News.
Mystic muppet?
Would like to see D'Arcy given the chance. Awful for Shanklin but if anyone deserves to benefit from injury it should be D'Acy.
Quote from: The Pundit on April 22, 2009, 09:28:15 PM
The fact that Riki Flutey is going on a lions tour as a possible starter in the test side tells you the large gulf in standard at the minute between the northern and southern hemisphere. Actually he is the 1st guy to play against and for the lions (presuming he does!)as he came on for the wellington lions on the NZ tour in 05.
SA to win 2-1 and thats being kind.
Quote from: stephenite on May 04, 2009, 01:13:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2009, 01:10:46 PM
I may be badly off base on this, but I don't think Flutey can have played at senior level for NZ. He may have played against the lions for one of the provinces over there.
No, you're spot on - he did play for the NZ Maoiris so I'd imagine it was with them when he played against the Lions, never capped at Senior level, only underage as you said.
If he plays in this tour he'll be the first to play both for and against the Lions according to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riki_Flutey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riki_Flutey)
great to see someone reads my posts!
shanks out d'arcy in
would i be right in saying that alot of this years lions are being picked not on 6N form but on club/province form? IMO this is due to the rising standard and interest in the Eoro cup
D'arcy has to get the call, that will be 6 Lions for Munster and 5 for Leinster - not too bad now ;)
Quote from: Tankie on May 07, 2009, 11:14:28 PM
D'arcy has to get the call, that will be 6 Lions for Munster and 5 for Leinster - not too bad now ;)
D'Arcy and O'Driscoll were superb on Saturday and deserves a call. Shanklin would have been back up to O'Driscoll imo so at #13 we're a bit light now. I don't think D'Arcy will make the test team at 12 though.
Quote from: The Pundit on May 07, 2009, 09:47:18 PM
Quote from: The Pundit on April 22, 2009, 09:28:15 PM
The fact that Riki Flutey is going on a lions tour as a possible starter in the test side tells you the large gulf in standard at the minute between the northern and southern hemisphere. Actually he is the 1st guy to play against and for the lions (presuming he does!)as he came on for the wellington lions on the NZ tour in 05.
SA to win 2-1 and thats being kind.
Quote from: stephenite on May 04, 2009, 01:13:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 04, 2009, 01:10:46 PM
I may be badly off base on this, but I don't think Flutey can have played at senior level for NZ. He may have played against the lions for one of the provinces over there.
No, you're spot on - he did play for the NZ Maoiris so I'd imagine it was with them when he played against the Lions, never capped at Senior level, only underage as you said.
If he plays in this tour he'll be the first to play both for and against the Lions according to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riki_Flutey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riki_Flutey)
great to see someone reads my posts!
shanks out d'arcy in
would i be right in saying that alot of this years lions are being picked not on 6N form but on club/province form? IMO this is due to the rising standard and interest in the Eoro cup
Sorry about that Pundit - missed your post!!
Mike Blair has replaced Tomas O'Leary
McGeechan:
QuoteThe selectors and I have had plenty of time to review the situation in terms of a replacement scrum half and were in agreement that Mike Blair should replace Tomas. He was on our reserve list for such an eventuality.
Mike is an excellent addition to the British and Irish Lions squad. As a national captain he is well respected by his peers and his 58 tests for Scotland mark him as a very capable and experienced scrum half.
Alan Quinlan will miss the Lions tour after his citing for eye-gouging is upheld
That will be Tom Croft on the plane..
Quote from: ceol agus peil on May 13, 2009, 06:20:39 PM
Alan Quinlan will miss the Lions tour after his citing for eye-gouging is upheld
That will be Tom Croft on the plane..
Feel sorry for him but its a case of don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time
Don't think he can have many complaints. Remarkable goodwill shown towards him by fellow pros and the media, I shudder to think what sort of reaction an incident like this would garner in any other sport.
He seems to play on the edge and this time he overstepped it, by quite a bit. Unfortunate that he misses the highlight of his career but a bit like Scholes for Man Utd in 1999, he plays close to the line and knows the risks well enough at this stage.
My Holidays - by Quinnie
Thanks for all the support, lads. Big shout out to Leo, Drico, and everyone else who spoke up for me. I'm going to take a little break now, head over to England to do a bit of manhunting. Did I say manhunting? Hunting, I meant hunting. Manly hunting. Yes, that's what I meant. Hunting, in a manly manner. Like a man.
Heh heh, slip of the tongue, there, is all. There is no need for any increase in security around the offices of Sky Sports Headquarters, or any of their employees. Specifically any employees responsible for the decision to endlessly replay a certain incident from a certain game. Endlessly. Again and again and again and again. Sure weren't they only doing their job? Its not like they had some agenda, now, is it? Nahhhhhh, no agenda at all. Just, doing their job.
I will be as surprised as anyone if something happens to them. Shocked, would be the word for how I will feel. If something, unfortunate, was to happen to them, like. Which I'm sure it won't. Probably. I mean, whose to say? Accidents happen all the time. Shocking, bloody, accidents. With nails, and, I dunno, metal sheeting of some kind. Electricity. Deadly, so it is. You can drown in two inches of water, I hear. But, really, what are the chances?
Look, let me be clear. They should sleep soundly in their beds. Soundly, verrrry, very soundly. Like babies. Big fat Tom Croft loving babies. And whats wrong with that? Its not a crime is it? Not like, say, hangin' a fella.
Yes, sleep well, Sky Sports.
If ye dare....
A bad day for Munster has just got a whole lot worse.
Jerry Flannery has been ruled out of the Lions tour due to injury :-\
Quote from: FermPundit on May 20, 2009, 10:25:45 PM
A bad day for Munster has just got a whole lot worse.
Jerry Flannery has been ruled out of the Lions tour due to injury :-\
What happened?
Quote from: Gnevin on May 20, 2009, 10:27:24 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on May 20, 2009, 10:25:45 PM
A bad day for Munster has just got a whole lot worse.
Jerry Flannery has been ruled out of the Lions tour due to injury :-\
What happened?
Elbow injury I think. First Tomas and now Flannery. A rubbish day for Irish Lions
Quote from: FermPundit on May 20, 2009, 10:29:15 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on May 20, 2009, 10:27:24 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on May 20, 2009, 10:25:45 PM
A bad day for Munster has just got a whole lot worse.
Jerry Flannery has been ruled out of the Lions tour due to injury :-\
What happened?
Elbow injury I think. First Tomas and now Flannery. A rubbish day for Irish Lions
Too late for Best?
Flannery adds to Lions woe - Sky Sports
Irish hooker adds to growing list of Lions absentees with injury
Jerry Flannery has been ruled out of the British and Irish Lions tour of South Africa after suffering a chipped bone in his left elbow, the team management confirmed tonight.
The news is yet another blow for Lions boss Ian McGeechan, after Alan Quinlan's suspension for eye gouging was upheld, resulting in Tom Croft being called up as a replacement.
Scotland captain Mike Blair has also been called up as a replacement for injured Munster scrum-half Tomas O'Leary, while centre Tom Shanklin has also been ruled out and fellow Welshman Leigh Halfpenny will miss at least the first two games of the tour.
Quote from: corn02 on May 20, 2009, 10:30:35 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on May 20, 2009, 10:29:15 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on May 20, 2009, 10:27:24 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on May 20, 2009, 10:25:45 PM
A bad day for Munster has just got a whole lot worse.
Jerry Flannery has been ruled out of the Lions tour due to injury :-\
What happened?
Elbow injury I think. First Tomas and now Flannery. A rubbish day for Irish Lions
Too late for Best?
Not sure. Ryan Jones wasn't considered as a replacement for Quinlan as he is the Welsh captain for their summer tour. The same may apply to Best. But there was a real shortage of quality hookers in this seasons six nations. He might yet get a call.
Ross Ford and Rory Best are the two reserve hookers.
Rest of the Irish lads must be shitting themselves. Not even on the plane and three of them already ruled out. With Leinster to play this weekend there might be another one or two more.
That's a big blow for the Lions chances. Flannery was a cert for the no2 shirt on the test team. Mears and Rees are both distinctly average hookers. I'd imagine Ross Ford will get the call up now. Wouldn't surprise me if he ended up starting the tests either.
Quote from: FermPundit on May 20, 2009, 10:34:20 PM
Flannery adds to Lions woe - Sky Sports
Irish hooker adds to growing list of Lions absentees with injury
Jerry Flannery has been ruled out of the British and Irish Lions tour of South Africa after suffering a chipped bone in his left elbow, the team management confirmed tonight.
The news is yet another blow for Lions boss Ian McGeechan, after Alan Quinlan's suspension for eye gouging was upheld, resulting in Tom Croft being called up as a replacement.
Scotland captain Mike Blair has also been called up as a replacement for injured Munster scrum-half Tomas O'Leary, while centre Tom Shanklin has also been ruled out and fellow Welshman Leigh Halfpenny will miss at least the first two games of the tour.
Quote from: corn02 on May 20, 2009, 10:30:35 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on May 20, 2009, 10:29:15 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on May 20, 2009, 10:27:24 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on May 20, 2009, 10:25:45 PM
A bad day for Munster has just got a whole lot worse.
Jerry Flannery has been ruled out of the Lions tour due to injury :-\
What happened?
Elbow injury I think. First Tomas and now Flannery. A rubbish day for Irish Lions
Too late for Best?
Not sure. Ryan Jones wasn't considered as a replacement for Quinlan as he is the Welsh captain for their summer tour. The same may apply to Best. But there was a real shortage of quality hookers in this seasons six nations. He might yet get a call.
Are you sure?
Ford called into Lions squad - RTE Sport
Scotland hooker Ross Ford was today announced by British & Irish Lions Tour Manager, Gerald Davies, as the tour replacement for the injured Jerry Flannery.
Davies said, 'Munster hooker Jerry Flannery tore ligaments in his left elbow in training on Wednesday that unfortunately ruled him out of the tour. His place in the tour squad is taken by Edinburgh's 25-year old hooker Ross Ford, who played in all five of Scotland's 2009 Six Nations championship matches.'
Commenting on the replacement, head coach Ian McGeechan said, 'Jerry has had a terrific season and he anchored the Irish scrum during Ireland's Six Nations Grand Slam season. It is disappointing that after selection for the Lions, his season should end with a pre-tour injury.'
'Injuries are a part of the game and while very distressing for the affected player we as a squad have to accept them as a fact of life. It is a part of the game we play. We are focussed on moving forward, concentrating on the task at hand and the first match.'
'Ross is a terrific player and he will naturally slot straight in as hooker. I look forward to welcoming him into camp tonight,' added McGeechan.
The replacement player for Leigh Halfpenny will be announced in due course.
Very disappointed that Rory Best didnt get called up for Flannery. Would have the two of them neck and neck when they are in the Ireland squad so thought Best would have gotten the nod instead of Ross Ford. Interesting that McGeechan has delayed the replacement for Halfpenny maybe he is waiting to see what kind of game D'Arcy has tomorrow. The papers were suggesting Patterson might get a call up ahead of Armitage which Sky Sports will no doubt be fuming about.
Best is very unfortunate alright. He is a far better hooker than both Mears and Rees. Mears is tiny and he'd would be blown away by the Boks front row. Rees is decent around the park but his darts are shocking. He's half the reason Ireland won the Grand Slam in Cardiff. O'Connell had a field day on the Welsh throw. Matfield and Botha will dominate the lineout if he's picked.
I'd expect Ford to be the test hooker now.
Hook called up for halpenny. D'arcy apparently had no chance of going after refusing to play in the third test in new zealand 4 years ago for sir clive
Living with Lions is on Sky Sports 1 @ 10.00 PM tonight and tomorrow. A good watch for anyone bored with TV tonight.
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on May 25, 2009, 09:31:55 PM
Living with Lions is on Sky Sports 1 @ 10.00 PM tonight and tomorrow. A good watch for anyone bored with TV tonight.
Never tire of seeing that show, was great last night. That squad was so tight, physical and talented. Great viewing, looking forward to the tests tonight.
Fantastic show, Johnson was awesome (much as I hate to say it)
http://irishtimeslions.fantasyleague.com/
anybody any interest in doing this, a fantasy game for the Lions tour.
Id say it would be a bit of a lottery, does it value equal points for the midweek games as the full tests?
dont know havent had time to read the rules.
British & Irish Lions v Royal XV
15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales)
14. Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Wales)
13. Keith Earls (Munster/Ireland)
12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
11. Shane Williams (Ospreys/Wales)
10. Ronan O'Gara (Munster/Ireland)
9. Mike Blair (Edinburgh/Scotland)
8. Andy Powell (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
7. Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
6. Joe Worsley (London Wasps/England)
5. Paul O'Connell (Munster/Ireland) captain
4. Simon Shaw (London Wasps/England)
3. Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
2. Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales)
1. Andrew Sheridan (Sales Sharks/England)
Replacements
16. Lee Mears (Bath/England)
17. Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England)
18. Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
19. Stephen Ferris (Ulster/Ireland)
20. Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales)
21. Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales)
22. Riki Flutey (London Wasps/England)
Never knew Tommy Bowe was Welsh! The Royal XV doesn't look too strong:
Russell Jeacocks (Leopards); Egon Seconds (Griquas), Deon van Rensburg (Leopards), Hanno Coetzee (Griquas), Bjorn Basson (Griquas); Naas Olivier (Griquas), Sarel Pretorius (Griquas); Albertus Buckle (Griquas), Rayno Barnes (Griquas), Bees Roux (Griquas), Rudi Mathee (Leopards), Jacques Lombard (Griquas), Wilhelm Koch (Leopards, capt), Devon Raubenheimer (Griquas), Jonathan Makoena (Griquas).
Replacements: Pellow van der Westhuizen (Leopards), Stef Roberts (Griquas), Rynard Landman (Leopards), RW Kember (Leopards), Jacques Coetzee (Pumas), Riaan Viljoen (Griquas), Jovan Bowles (Bulldogs).
Would expect the Lions to win by at least 20.
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on May 25, 2009, 09:31:55 PM
Living with Lions is on Sky Sports 1 @ 10.00 PM tonight and tomorrow. A good watch for anyone bored with TV tonight.
That's a cracking documentary. ESPN Classic often run it over a week. It's easily the best of these fly-on-the-wall programmes that I've seen. Some of the dressing footage before the test matches and the forward meetings with Jim Telfer make for amazing television.
Thats a strong lions team. possible test back 3.
ROG will be under pressure from the start.
Lions 37 Royal Highveld XV 25
A very poor performance from the Lions, Earls had 4 knock ons in a 10 minute spell early in the game that gave the initiaive to the South Africans. They were 18-3 up at one stage in the first half. Dave Wallace played as an emergency number 8 and was poor at that position given that the Lions scrum was on top. Very poor cohesion from the Lions. The only upside being that they won in the end helped by a great individual try from Lee Byrne similar in a way to the one O'Driscoll got against Wasps at the RDS before Christmas. Byrne, O'Connell and O'Gara (the big names) and the scrum were pretty good but there is obviously a lot of work to be done.
would have to agree,a very poor performance from the lions.admittedly the opposition is likely to have been the poorest of the teams they will play but then again its maybe been a few weeks since some of the lions players have had a game.earls had an absolute nitemare early on but did improve a fair bit as the game went on but still only a shadow of the player you see with munster.bowe looked comfortable enough as did williams and byrne in the back line,roberts had a decent game too.in the forwards the back row was pretty average although id far rather see david wallace at 7 rather than 8.
at least the got the victory,would have been a very big blow to morale to lose today,i expect a much improved performance on wednesday with the likes of odriscoll,ocallaghan,heislip likely to get a start.
Thought the only good performances today were Byrne, Roberts, Bowe, O'Connell and O'Gara was decent at time as well. Blair was awful at scrum half particularly in the first 20/30mins.
The Bulls are putting on a bit of a show at the minute in the Super 14 final with a lot of the big South Africa players playing extremely well.
Quote from: tyroneboi on May 30, 2009, 05:14:58 PM
Thought the only good performances today were Byrne, Roberts, Bowe, O'Connell and O'Gara was decent at time as well. Blair was awful at scrum half particularly in the first 20/30mins.
The Bulls are putting on a bit of a show at the minute in the Super 14 final with a lot of the big South Africa players playing extremely well.
That is a bit of a farce having the game in the home stadium of the Bulls and it has made it a very one sided final. They could at least have moved it to a neutral stadium within South Africa. I suppose they do not name a venue in ad vance as if they decided to have it in South Africa and 2 New Zealand teams qualified, nobody would go. However todays spectacle should make them take a look at the way they are doing things.
was there anyone at the lions game today? the place looked empty
Quote from: Capt Pat on May 30, 2009, 05:40:49 PM
Quote from: tyroneboi on May 30, 2009, 05:14:58 PM
Thought the only good performances today were Byrne, Roberts, Bowe, O'Connell and O'Gara was decent at time as well. Blair was awful at scrum half particularly in the first 20/30mins.
The Bulls are putting on a bit of a show at the minute in the Super 14 final with a lot of the big South Africa players playing extremely well.
That is a bit of a farce having the game in the home stadium of the Bulls and it has made it a very one sided final. They could at least have moved it to a neutral stadium within South Africa. I suppose they do not name a venue in ad vance as if they decided to have it in South Africa and 2 New Zealand teams qualified, nobody would go. However todays spectacle should make them take a look at the way they are doing things.
You have to qualify for a home final in the super 14 - one of the main motivations for teams that make the finals.
Gordon D'arcy has just been called up to the Lions!!
Source?
bbc sport- breaking news
Interesting!
And he isnt replacing anyone, there must be something going on behind the sceens?
On another note i see Brian Carney has left Munster to return to League. Never worked out for him at munster, i really thought he had the tools to be a sucess.
What you think would be going on?
Good to see and hopefully he wont be there just to make up the numbers. Well capable.
Looking forward to this game tonight. Will no doubt be a big test.
are all the games only on Sky?
Quote from: ludermor on June 03, 2009, 12:21:56 PM
Interesting!
And he isnt replacing anyone, there must be something going on behind the sceens?
On another note i see Brian Carney has left Munster to return to League. Never worked out for him at munster, i really thought he had the tools to be a sucess.
I thought they hadn't yet replaced Shanklin. I think they were waiting on Halfpenny to see if he would recover before deciding on Shanklin's replacement.
I dont think there is anything going on behind the scenes but more like lads are dropping like flies out there so it is better to have him in early playing a game or two and not giving him a call before the 1st test when he may not be match fit.
Also I think Darce will make the test team, maybe not the first test but probably the second as he will have some job getting Roberts out of that 12 shirt with so little game time left. i can see why he did not make the initial squad but he should have been called up after Shanklin got injured based on his Heineken cup form alone. But this is great news for Darce and Irish Rugby.
I think the management always had it in their head to call D'arcy up. I'd say they were just waiting to see how he came through the Barbarians match in Twickenham on Saturday.
Quote from: ludermor on June 03, 2009, 12:21:56 PM
In another note i see Brian Carney has left Munster to return to League. Never worked out for him at munster, i really thought he had the tools to be a sucess.
He was a serious league player a few years ago. It was a pity the IRFU didn't manage to get him a few years earlier. He was simply too late converting to union, think he was around the 30 mark when he joined Munster.
Well Hook was called up as Shanklin's replacement.
But with Flutey carrying a minor knock and there's no chance of Earls starting a game again until maybe the Wed before the first test, so options at centre were reducing. I don't think there would be much point risking an outhalf or winger at centre when there's a perfectly good one waiting at home.
I'd say D'Arcy and Flutey will start on Saturday.
Quote from: Hound on June 03, 2009, 12:59:12 PM
Well Hook was called up as Shanklin's replacement.
But with Flutey carrying a minor knock and there's no chance of Earls starting a game again until maybe the Wed before the first test, so options at centre were reducing. I don't think there would be much point risking an outhalf or winger at centre when there's a perfectly good one waiting at home.
I'd say D'Arcy and Flutey will start on Saturday.
Apologies, I forgot about him.
Quote from: Joxer on June 03, 2009, 12:24:04 PM
What you think would be going on?
Good to see and hopefully he wont be there just to make up the numbers. Well capable.
Looking forward to this game tonight. Will no doubt be a big test.
Why wait till now to call him up? McGeehan siad his strong enough to cover knocks and bruises and the likes of Flutey and Earls have only minor knocks, if he ws going to call him up surely it would have been in place of Hook ( not saying Hook should not have been there either).
Leinster are cathcing up on their southern cousins numbers now.
Quote from: ludermor on June 03, 2009, 01:15:14 PM
Quote from: Joxer on June 03, 2009, 12:24:04 PM
What you think would be going on?
Good to see and hopefully he wont be there just to make up the numbers. Well capable.
Looking forward to this game tonight. Will no doubt be a big test.
Why wait till now to call him up? McGeehan said his strong enough to cover knocks and bruises and the likes of Flutey and Earls have only minor knocks, if he ws going to call him up surely it would have been in place of Hook ( not saying Hook should not have been there either).
Leinster are cathcing up on their southern cousins numbers now.
He was playing for the Barbarians against England last weekend.
?
Surely if they called him up he wouldnt have played for the them?
Lions call up Ireland back D'Arcy
Ireland and Leinster centre Gordon D'Arcy played for the Barbarians against England on Saturday
D'Arcy went on the 2005 Lions tour of New Zealand
Ireland centre Gordon D'Arcy has been called up by the Lions because of injury concerns in their back division.
Keith Earls sustained a minor shoulder injury against the Royal XV last Saturday and another centre, Riki Flutey, suffered a thigh strain.
Head coach Ian McGeechan said: "While the injuries are being treated by the medical team we felt it prudent to provide extra cover in midfield."
Leinster's D'Arcy is a team-mate of Brian O'Driscoll for club and country.
McGeechan added: "Gordon's partnership with Brian O'Driscoll is a proven one and can only benefit the Lions' squad here in South Africa.
606: DEBATE
I wouldn't be at all upset to see him lining up with BOD in the Tests
PaddyWho
"Gordon showed in the European Cup final (when Leinster beat Leicester 19-16) and the recent Barbarians match against England (when they won 33-26) that he is back to his best.
"He was on our reserve list and we had no hesitation in calling him up to the squad as he is an extremely experienced player who has played 41 times for his country."
D'Arcy, who went with the Lions to New Zealand in 2005 playing six provincial matches as well as the pre-tour match against Argentina, will arrive in South Africa on Thursday, 4 June and could be in contention for the third game of the tour against the Cheetahs on Saturday.
The 29-year-old was sidelined with a broken arm in 2008 but has returned to form to help Ireland capture the Six Nations Grand Slam and Leinster win the Heineken Cup.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/8081070.stm
Great start. 14-0
BOD looks very sharp.
Hope Stuart Barnes doesn't keep creaming his pants every time Tom Croft touches the ball.
14-0 already to the Lions after 10 minutes. Some difference between Saturday and tonight.
25-3
Great break from Bowe.
Jamie Roberts looks like he's made the 12 shirt his own.
That was a pretty awesome first half. Roberts and O'Driscoll look like the making of a deadly centre partnership/
Roberts looking excellent alright, has struck up a good partnership with BOD by the looks of this. Bowe great too, setting up some amount. Croft looking very good too.
Some try by Ferris at the end.
Roberts and Bowe have nailed down their test positions now I'd say. The left wing slot might be up for grabs though. I've a feeling they might not fancy putting Shane Williams in against the Boks physicality. Ugo Monye did well tonight but he still looks a bit raw. Fitzgerald needs to put in a big performance on Saturday.
Kearney was solid throughout but he'll have to play out of his skin to dislodge Lee Byrne.
Just watching the replay of the game here and the Lions are awesome! Jenkins, Mears, Wyn Jones, Croft, Phillips, Jones, Bowe, O'Driscoll, Roberts have really put their hands up for a test spot as far as I can see. Add to that O'Connell and Byrne being nailed on for the Test team also and there wouldn't seem to be many places up for grabs!
Good job there are a few games before the first Test to get a look at everyone. I know it's only one performance but things are definitely looking a lot better than they were this time on Saturday night.
I would take tonights result with a pinch of salt against what was supposed to be a better team than the one they played on saturday. Having said that Bowe and Roberts look to be heading for the test team, it is all about taking your chances on a short tour like this one. I would say Fitzgerald and Kearmey are a lot more talented than Bowe but he has grabbed his chnce with both hands. I would like to see Williams and Habana clash on the wing in the test match I do not think Williams will be overwhelmed as the one thing he has is real pace to match Habana.
Luke fitzgerald looked unhappy sitting in the stand, is he injured. He also looks a bit like Beaker in that suit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpcUxwpOQ_A
What would the team be for the 1st Test if it was in a weeks time. This is my guess with the shoe-in's in bold (bar injury)
1 . Jenkins
2 . Mears
3. Vickery
4. Wyn-Jones
5. O'Connell
6.Croft
7.Williams
8.Heaslip
9.Phillips
10.O'Gara
11.Fitzgerald
12.Roberts
13.O'Driscoll
14.Bowe
15.Byrne
I wouldn't say Bowe has just taken his chance in this tour, he's been one of the front-runners for a wing spot for a good while now and was widely regarded as one of the best wings in the 6N, if not the best. He's come on some amount in the last year since moving to the Ospreys. Can't compare Kearney with Bowe really to be fair, and it's a bit strange to say Fitzgerald is alot more talented than Bowe, maybe in time he might but not at the minute I wouldn't say.
The way Stephen Jones and O'Driscoll linked up tonight it looks like a good 10 13 partnership and Jones would be my first choice ten at the minute by a good distance!
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on June 03, 2009, 11:40:38 PM
What would the team be for the 1st Test if it was in a weeks time. This is my guess with the shoe-in's in bold (bar injury)
1 . Jenkins
2 . Mears
3. Vickery
4. Wyn-Jones
5. O'Connell
6.Croft
7.Williams
8.Heaslip
9.Phillips
10.O'Gara
11.Fitzgerald
12.Roberts
13.O'Driscoll
14.Bowe
15.Byrne
I'd say Jones has edged into the lead for the 10 jersey. ROG had a good game at the weekend but there was great link play between the trio of Jones, BOD and Roberts. ROG will have to work to get back ahead of him I'd say but sure a few games left yet.
Quote from: Capt Pat on June 03, 2009, 11:13:50 PM
I would take tonights result with a pinch of salt against what was supposed to be a better team than the one they played on saturday. Having said that Bowe and Roberts look to be heading for the test team, it is all about taking your chances on a short tour like this one. I would say Fitzgerald and Kearmey are a lot more talented than Bowe but he has grabbed his chnce with both hands. I would like to see Williams and Habana clash on the wing in the test match I do not think Williams will be overwhelmed as the one thing he has is real pace to match Habana.
Luke fitzgerald looked unhappy sitting in the stand, is he injured. He also looks a bit like Beaker in that suit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpcUxwpOQ_A
I'm not sure about that one. Bowe has really improved over the past eighteen months. Joining the Hairsprays and the influence of Kidney have been of great benefit to his game. His handling and offloading have improved no end. He always had the size but he just needed to add the skills to go with it.
Test team I'd like to see: Byrne, Bowe, O'Driscoll, Roberts, Fitzgerald, Jones, Phillips, Jenkins, Ford, Murray, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Ferris, Williams, Wallace.
Replacements: Rees, Vickery, Wyn-Jones, Heaslip, Ellis, O'Gara, Kearney.
i know what you mean lads but like the last tour it could come down to the 3 pointers, and not being biased, i think O'Gara just edges it, but as you say Schkite, a good few games left yet. IMHO ofcourse.
ROG is definitely has the better boot, both from hand and off the ground. Jones has a quare old kicking technique that looks great when he connects right but they can go astray on occasion. ROG is probably the better distributor as well. He has a long flat pass off either hand that can put his outside backs into space.
Jones will get the nod though unless he has an absolute mare against Western Province on Saturday week. Gatland and Edwards will ensure that his superior defence will see him selected.
Yeah the defence is a downfall of ROG, South Africa will target him time and again if he starts. But I don't think it'll come down to just that, if he performs well he'll give the management a selection headache. To be fair though I think he's a bit to do to get into the team should Jones keep playing like he did tonight. Plus Phillips did well and they'll see him with Jones as a good half-back combo.
would still like to see everyone get at least another game maybe two but id say at least half the test slots are not far off being nailed on already.jenkins and wyn jones had superb games 2nite,phillips and jones looked a very good partnership.ROG may well have problems dislodging jones,whilst he did very little wrong at the weekend,mcgeechan might just opt for the welsh partnership.id say 4 of the back 5 are done and dusted barring injury (byrne,bowe,odriscoll and roberts).
still 2 out of the back row will be irish,wallace or ferris to join heislip.croft can certainly move about a pitch,great athleticism and good line out option.
must also remember that whilst the lions were very good tonight,they had it very easy,the golden lions looked very ordinary.we'll know a lot more a week b4 the test obviously.hope ocallaghan and fitzgerald have big games this weekend!!!
I think at the moment the back row would be Croft-MWilliams-Heaslip. Wallace hasnt been good, but will get another chance to show his stuff - I'd prefer him to Williams, but he needs to show it on the pitch. The other option would be Croft and Ferris, though not sure who'd be the 7. They'd both wanna be well ahead of the Williams and Wallace for that to happen.
I'd be surprised if O'Callaghan even makes the bench. I'd rate him behind Jones and Hines. But a big game on Saturday could change that.
Jones v O'Gara is still too tight to call. Given Philips is nailed on for 9, that gives Jones a slight advanatage.
From watching the game last night, you can see the team are alot better organised than they were for that fiasco of a tour to New Zealand. I liked the looked of the second row last night. Thought they all were impressive. They were however, in the first half poor in the breakdown and give a way 3 or 4 bad penaities. Phillips was impressive at scrum half and I liked the look of Monye at 11. I think with another good, solid performance, if he gets one, could have that jersey for the first test. In the backs, Roberts, BOD and Bowe have positions nailed on unless something drastic happens. Fitzgerald et al are really going to have to step their game up. Thought Jones at out half was very immressive and as said here already, linked very well with BOD and Roberts. Looking at the first test, the team I would go for:
1 . Jenkins
2 . Mears
3. Vickery
4. Wyn-Jones
5. O'Connell
6.Croft
7.Williams
8.Heaslip
9.Phillips
10.Jones
11.Williams
12.Roberts
13.O'Driscoll
14.Bowe
15.Byrne
Good performance from the Lions last night however the oppossition were piss poor. Some stand out performances from the likes of Bowe, Roberts and Bod and the test team seems to be taking a bit of shape. Based on what I have seen so far, my test team would be along the following lines -
Byrne
Bowe
BOD
Roberts
AN Other (Shane Williams is out of form and I dont think Monye is up to it at this level yet)
Jones
Phillips
Jenkins
AN Other but Mears seems to be at the head of the queue right now. The Boks will kill him :o
Murray
AWJ but Hines or DOC are not too far away. Big weekend coming up for DOC.
POC
Ferris because I'm not yet convinced by Croft.
Wallace/Williams
Heaslip
British & Irish Lions (vs Vodacom Free State Cheetahs)
15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys / Wales)
14. Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues / Wales)
13. Keith Earls (Munster / Ireland)
12. Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster / Ireland)
11. Shane Williams (Ospreys / Wales)
10. James Hook (Ospreys / Wales)
9. Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers / England)
8. Andy Powell (Cardiff Blues / Wales)
7. Joe Worsley (London Wasps / England)
6. Stephen Ferris (Ulster / Ireland)
5. Paul O'Connell (Munster / Ireland – Captain)
4. Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster / Ireland)
3. Euan Murray (Northampton Saints / Scotland)
2. Ross Ford (Edinburgh / Scotland)
1. Andrew Sheridan (Sale Sharks / England)
Replacements
16. Matthew Rees (Scarlets / Wales)
17. Adam Jones (Ospreys / Wales)
18. Simon Shaw (London Wasps / England)
19. Nathan Hines (Perpignan / Scotland)
20. Gordon D'Arcy (Leinster / Ireland)
21. Ronan O'Gara (Munster / Ireland)
22. Mike Blair (Edinburgh / Scotland)
Good to see Earls getting another chance. He had a nightmare last Saturday and he needs to bounce back. I'd say Luke Fitzgerald will be fairly pissed off to find himself playing at inside centre. Hard to see him forcing his way onto the test team if that's where McGeechan sees him.
A lot of these guys will need to put in big performances after Wednesday's result.
Glad to see Earls back in again, hopefully he can put in a stormer. I couldnt bellieve reading the papers today a lot were saying D'Arcy was in line to start! The lad is just off a plane and will he have had even 1 training session? It will surely take him time to blend in.
Will be interesting to see how Hook plays at 10 and Williams could play himself completely out of the picture if he doesnt perform
The midfield looks very lightweight for a game in South Africa. There is no back row sub of any sort. O'Callaghan played blindside before, surely Williams should have been on the bench.
Quote from: Capt Pat on June 05, 2009, 06:50:57 PM
The midfield looks very lightweight for a game in South Africa. There is no back row sub of any sort. O'Callaghan played blindside before, surely Williams should have been on the bench.
As far as I'm aware M Williams currently has a bit of a shoulder problem so i would imagine that it is just precautionary that he isn't a replacement. Would like to see Fitzgerald getting at least a game at 11 to show what he can do because i think thats the only spot up for grabs at this moment in time for the test team. Shane Williams is still favourite for that spot and I really expect a big performance from him tomorrow.
Lions on fire 17-0 , 17 minutes in 2 Irish trys. Earls and Ferris .
Half time Lions have fallen part during a sin binning. Let in 2 trys . O'Connell going up the middle too much.
Lion 26-24. Shocking 60 minutes from the Lions
The Lions were very lucky yesterday. I hope they can keep the momentum up and keep winning though. I get the impression reading between the lines from some of the English hacks that they are dying to get an opportunity to put the boot into this Lions team because the tour party is dominated by Wales and Ireland
Read that plonker Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times and you'll see about putting the boot in to the Irish lads.
Quote from: Yes I Would on June 07, 2009, 07:27:19 PM
Read that plonker Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times and you'll see about putting the boot in to the Irish lads.
Jones is Welsh though - not that you'd know that from reading him! There'll be plenty of them English hacks bleating on about Armitage, Haskell and even Cipriani if the Lions get walloped in one of the tests.
Stephen Jones:
Here is a tale of two lifting units, the South African and the Irish. When Ireland lift Paul O'Connell in the lineout, it is a fairly statuesque affair. It is a deep, long and rather slow hoist, which usually puts O'Connell up successfully for the lineout catch, sometimes after a little bit of interchanging in the Irish line.
The South African operation is completely different. There is no subterfuge, no trickery. The ball is thrown high and rapidly above Victor Matfield and the lifting unit has him up there with breathtaking speed, almost as if a rocket is taking off. Matfield himself firmly believes that this pace of lift, if everyone does their job properly, is all you ever need for a successful lineout.
And the difference in these two operations is precisely why O'Connell is paired with Alun-Wyn Jones for the Lions' match against the Sharks in Durban on Wednesday.
The Lions can harp all they want about trying different combinations, but if they are to thrive on their own throw, and especially if they are to menace the dominating South African lineout, they have to find someone they can lift rapidly and high against Matfield. On this tour so far, Alun-Wyn is the only contender and, if the Lions are going to play O'Connell in the middle, they will sacrifice challenging the South African lineout and, instead, will have to pile into the first breakdown to stop the Springbok flow.
The tall Welsh lock has been by a mile the most athletic of the second row exponents on this tour to date. His performance will be monitored closely on Wednesday and, as I said the other day, the full horror of the timescale of this operation has now struck home. This tour is in its infancy and yet the Lions are already making massive decisions for the Test series, not all of them based on too much evidence.
The lifting conundrum also profoundly affects Tom Croft and Stephen Ferris. If the Lions are to station O'Connell in the middle, then Croft is a racing certainty to play in the Test series. The idea that the Lions would take on the brilliant South African operation with a lineout consisting of, say, Nathan Hines, O'Connell and Ferris is really the stuff of nightmares, albeit that those three forwards are genuinely great players in different areas.
If O'Connell plays in the middle, then Croft must play behind him. On Wednesday, we will all be holding our breath as the Lions lineout lines out.
Where tourists fear to tread
It is desperately hard to be in South Africa and not be American about living life here. We all know that the good old Americans tend to cancel their trips to the United Kingdom or anywhere else in the world in the event of someone firing a water pistol in anger at their intended destination, let alone staging a terrorist attack. But we would all rather retain our property and our life and limb.
It is not in any way meant to demean this magnificent country, the progress of the Rainbow Nation or what seems to me a substantial increase in national morale to say that this is an edgy place.
The problem is that without extensive and sustained local knowledge it is difficult for the visitor to be absolutely certain what is safe to do and where is safe to do it.
On Saturday in Bloemfontein, we received a ringing restaurant recommendation from one of the delightful local media ladies. She pointed the restaurant out, roughly two blocks away from where we were standing, in the late evening. As we set off, however, she became agitated. "Please do not walk it," she said of a journey on foot that would have taken about five minutes. We took her advice and caught a taxi and, in that very same area later, a British tourist was mugged near some traffic lights.
Even now in Durban, with its glamorous beachfront and armed with memories of a daylight mugging in 1995 perpetrated on a colleague on the very same beach, it is again difficult to be sanguine, difficult to be certain where to walk and where to take a taxi. Again, I'm sorry if it sounds vaguely American.
We have also read that during the football World Cup next year all will be well since there will be thousands of police patrolling the areas where the games are held. That all sounds fine, but you do wonder why on earth those police are not actually out and about at present, tackling the awesome nature of South Africa's crime problem.
This is not in any way to insult our wonderful hosts, nor is it in any way intended to frighten the thousands of Lions supporters who are about to pack to come here. If you are sensible, you will be fine. But it is an enormous frustration that we cannot mix entirely with this vibrant land, that as darkness begins to fall we feel hemmed in to our hotels with their patrolled grounds and obliged to hang around the malls of shops and restaurants. There is a magnificent country out there, if only we knew definitively how to stay safe in it.
The Stephen Jones debate
Joe Worsley may not be a natural 7 but he tackles bloody hard and is in the right place at the right time. That's more than could be said for Andy Powell who was a disgrace - how he and Harry Ellis ever made the tour is a joke. On the few occasions the pack did turn the ball back quickly on Saturday, it was Ellis who then slowed it down. A bit like O'Leary in the Six Nations. Still, at least we had big O'Connell to galvanise the team. Are we really so sure that Geech is a rugby genius who makes inspired selections? By the way, if Hook can look good behind that pack, that scrum half and in front of those three quarters, I'd say we have a genuine contender for Jones's 10 shirt. Jonathan Washington
SJ: Last point first, Jonathan: the criminally short nature of this tour means that Hook will probably not get the chance to play in a big match alongside Jamie Roberts and O'Driscoll to see what he can do and there are many other worthwhile experiments that Geech does not have the time to make. Totally agreed about Joe - I think he was just about man of the match against the Cheetahs and to blame him for the breakdown problems was a nonsense.
I wondered whether the possibility of O'Connell not being picked for the Tests had crossed your mind. He has been looking way off his best form in his appearances so far and Alun-Wyn Jones, Nathan Hines and Simon Shaw look in better nick at the moment. A strong case for including Croft could be made too, as it would allow a very strong back row of Ferris, Heaslip and Williams to be selected without having to sacrifice Croft's pace and skills. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a Lions skipper has been under pressure for his Test place. I recall Finlay Calder's back row spot being under huge pressure from the English contingent of Andy Robinson and Dean Richards in 1989 and he came back in fine style to answer his critics. There is clearly still time (not a lot, though) for O'Connell to regain his form but I just wonder whether this could be the big story in the coming fortnight. Henry Crane, North Ferriby
SJ: It has crossed my mind around 200 times and it crossed the dinner table I was at last night in Durban from all six of the diners. No one is saying that he is not a fine captain but there are serious question marks as to whether he is dynamic enough in the loose and athletic enough in the lineout. This one will run and run.
Isn't it time to ditch the cuddly toy Lenny Lion mascot? It's impossible to lead a team out looking dignified, let alone fearsome, with that under your arm. What about a man in a lion costume to wind up the opposition supporters from the sidelines. Austin Healey could do it. Morris Carpenter, Accra, Ghana
SJ: I have asked Austin and for the right fee he is prepared to do it. Actually, I quite like the Lion. I am sure that this one they have for 2009 was the Cuddly Toy on Brucie's Generation Game in around 1987.
Well done on leading the call for more penalties at scrum time. Pity it had to be the serial cheat Wayne Barnes who enforced it. It's nice to see the Lions putting their energy into whining about something other than spear tackles! Poncey Malherber, Cape Town
SJ: Great name, doggerel view.
After the Cheetahs game surely Adam Powell, Shane Williams and Luke Fitzgerald have shown that they will not make the Lions Test team. Powell should not even have been selected for the tour and showed he is a one trick, selfish pony. Ryan Jones would have offered so much more. Man of the match was Harry Ellis who did nothing wrong and an awful lot right. Tony, Biarritz
SJ: It wasn't the best for those three, although I think we could suspend the verdict on Shane till he has a midfield inside him. Fitzgerald is clearly able and it was hard for him that his first game in the centre was not alongside someone like Riki Flutey or Jamie Roberts.
With regard to empty stadiums, what the authorities could do is have a cut-off date for sailable tickets, say one week before the game, then they could sell the unsold tickets to all the schools around the park for a nominal fee, or give them away. Imagine all those school children getting involved with rugby. Ian Hoare, Forest of Dean
SJ: It is amazing what a good idea that is, Ian, and how rarely rugby authorities act on good ideas.
I understand that there was a requirement by the Lions that 22 per cent of the tickets were allocated to them. What I hear is that very few have travelled here to SA because of the recession or possibly a poor team. Perhaps we should make more tickets available to locals and not reserve them for UK people who don't come. Maybe the UK rugby supporters no longer believe in the Lions. Ken MacGregor
SJ: Ken, that is totally wrong in fact and logic. The shortfall is totally down to the lack of local support here. Let's see what happens in Durban on Wednesday.
I've got an idea about how to put more bums on seats - try providing an opposition with a better record against southern hemisphere teams since 1977 than the one whose statistics read: played 27, won 8, drawn 1. Scottie, Auckland
SJ: How good to have a view from the land of the long, black cloud, the tiny stadiums and the rows of empty seats in the stands.
In Friday's Rolling Maul you suggested that Ugo Monye is the best finisher since Rory Underwood. My concern is your case of rugby amnesia since Rory retired. Jason Robinson is the one who stands out for me - surely you agree that he was one of the best finishers (in both codes). Liam, Keele
SJ: Probably right, Jason was a great all-round runner and finished some great tries, sometimes almost uncannily. Our Ugo has got something, however, and I hope we see it in the next few weeks.
Quote from: Aghdavoyle on June 09, 2009, 01:13:37 PM
Stephen Jones:
When Ireland lift Paul O'Connell in the lineout, it is a fairly statuesque affair. It is a deep, long and rather slow hoist, which usually puts O'Connell up successfully for the lineout catch, sometimes after a little bit of interchanging in the Irish line.
And the difference in these two operations is precisely why O'Connell is paired with Alun-Wyn Jones for the Lions' match against the Sharks in Durban on Wednesday.
The Lions can harp all they want about trying different combinations, but if they are to thrive on their own throw, and especially if they are to menace the dominating South African lineout, they have to find someone they can lift rapidly and high against Matfield. On this tour so far, Alun-Wyn is the only contender and, if the Lions are going to play O'Connell in the middle, they will sacrifice challenging the South African lineout and, instead, will have to pile into the first breakdown to stop the Springbok flow.
The tall Welsh lock has been by a mile the most athletic of the second row exponents on this tour to date. His performance will be monitored closely on Wednesday and, as I said the other day, the full horror of the timescale of this operation has now struck home. This tour is in its infancy and yet the Lions are already making massive decisions for the Test series, not all of them based on too much evidence.
The lifting conundrum also profoundly affects Tom Croft and Stephen Ferris. If the Lions are to station O'Connell in the middle, then Croft is a racing certainty to play in the Test series. The idea that the Lions would take on the brilliant South African operation with a lineout consisting of, say, Nathan Hines, O'Connell and Ferris is really the stuff of nightmares, albeit that those three forwards are genuinely great players in different areas.
I wondered whether the possibility of O'Connell not being picked for the Tests had crossed your mind. He has been looking way off his best form in his appearances so far and Alun-Wyn Jones, Nathan Hines and Simon Shaw look in better nick at the moment. A strong case for including Croft could be made too, as it would allow a very strong back row of Ferris, Heaslip and Williams to be selected without having to sacrifice Croft's pace and skills. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a Lions skipper has been under pressure for his Test place. I recall Finlay Calder's back row spot being under huge pressure from the English contingent of Andy Robinson and Dean Richards in 1989 and he came back in fine style to answer his critics. There is clearly still time (not a lot, though) for O'Connell to regain his form but I just wonder whether this could be the big story in the coming fortnight. Henry Crane, North Ferriby
SJ: It has crossed my mind around 200 times and it crossed the dinner table I was at last night in Durban from all six of the diners. No one is saying that he is not a fine captain but there are serious question marks as to whether he is dynamic enough in the loose and athletic enough in the lineout. This one will run and run.
Jones is a complete tool. O'Connell is not athletic enough in the lineout? The guy is probably the best defensive lineout operator in the world. Did he not see the job that O'Connell did on the Welsh lineout in Cardiff, including Wyn-Jones. Fair enough, he doesn't have the human forklift in the Bull Hayes with him in South Africa but to suggest dropping O'Connell for a lump like Shaw or Hines is lunacy.
I've always thought his articles were a piss take and a wind up but I'm beginning to think he actually believes the rubbish he writes.
I was shoked to hear that anyone thought POC's form was not great. i think he's been going well.
what am i missing in Croft that everyone else sees?
I think with Croft if you take away the hype that has been built up by the English media particularly Stuart Barnes on Sky, he is actually a decent player. It is really a toss of the coin between Ferris and Croft at this stage. I would say if Croft had scored the tries that Ferris scored in the last 2 games, Sky would be going mental about it. Both very good players though. If Shane Williams doesnt have a good game tomorrow night then theres no way he can be picked for the 1st test. Surprised Rob Kearney hasnt been given a go on the wing yet and I see he isnt even selected on the bench for the next game even though Halfpenny has been ruled out. Big game for O'Gara and Wallace as well. Will make or break their selection for the 1st test.
Team for tomorrow night incidentally is this:
Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales);
Shane Williams (Ospreys/Wales),
Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland),
Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales),
Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster/Ireland);
Ronan O'Gara (Munster/Ireland),
Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales);
Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues/Wales),
Lee Mears (Bath/England),
Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales),
Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales),
Paul O'Connell (Munster/Ireland, capt),
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England),
David Wallace (Munster/Ireland),
Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland).
Replacements: Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales), Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England), Simon Shaw (London Wasps/England), Joe Worsley (London Wasps/England), Mike Blair (Edinburgh/Scotland), Riki Flutey (London Wasps/England), James Hook (Ospreys/Wales).
Would say that POC's form isn't great at the minute from the Munster Leinster game and the 2 Lions game's he has played in. I think it will be interesting to see him tomorrow with a stronger pack and with Wyn Jones along with him. If he steps up and has a big game then he will cement his Test position which is slightly under threat. Oh and Stephen Jones is a complete knob. . . O'Connell has been one of the best Lineout operators in the world for a long time now!
Tom Croft is a poor man's Ferris. He'll look good playing for the dirt-trackers but throw him into a full blown test environment against a huge Springbok pack and he'd struggle to make anywhere near the same kind of impact.
Even by SJ standards that is some crap.
The single biggest problem is at the breakdown - a sluggish front row was selected on Saturday and a shocking display from back row ...Worsley and Powell were brutal on Saturday.Worsley has some defence in that he was out of position . He is just an honest plodder. Powell was a disgrace ... In dying minutes - penultimate play probably - D'arcy made a decent break and got a bit isolated but did well to position himself and the ball - Powell sauntered up inspects the ruck and leaves Ellis to try and recover it. They need to get more players hitting rucks not looking at them.
QuoteHere is a tale of two lifting units, the South African and the Irish. When Ireland lift Paul O'Connell in the lineout, it is a fairly statuesque affair. It is a deep, long and rather slow hoist, which usually puts O'Connell up successfully for the lineout catch, sometimes after a little bit of interchanging in the Irish line.
The South African operation is completely different. There is no subterfuge, no trickery. The ball is thrown high and rapidly above Victor Matfield and the lifting unit has him up there with breathtaking speed, almost as if a rocket is taking off. Matfield himself firmly believes that this pace of lift, if everyone does their job properly, is all you ever need for a successful lineout.
And the difference in these two operations is precisely why O'Connell is paired with Alun-Wyn Jones for the Lions' match against the Sharks in Durban on Wednesday.
The Lions can harp all they want about trying different combinations, but if they are to thrive on their own throw, and especially if they are to menace the dominating South African lineout, they have to find someone they can lift rapidly and high against Matfield. On this tour so far, Alun-Wyn is the only contender and, if the Lions are going to play O'Connell in the middle, they will sacrifice challenging the South African lineout and, instead, will have to pile into the first breakdown to stop the Springbok flow.
I have never read such nonsense.
His argument is that Alun-Wyn is more liftable than O'Connell and therefore O'Connell should be dropped. Is Alun-Wyn lighter? Well according to lionsrugby.com (http://www.lionsrugby.com/6085.php?includeref=dynamic&compare_10001=9023&compare_10002=503) Jones is 8 kilos heavier. Both same height so if anything it should be easier to lift O'Connell.
It could be 6 Nations form, head to head but this is what rugby365 had to say about their Cardiff clash:
5 Alun-Wyn Jones:
The second row star would have been disappointed with the lineout stats. The home side were harassed all day by Paul O'Connell. Determined effort around the park but the set piece was disappointing. 6/10
Did it occur to him that if there was a problem with the speed of the lift as he describes, then maybe the lifters should be looked at?
Or is the agenda more important than the argument?
Ferris out injured.
Ryan Jones already called in.
Quote from: muppet on June 09, 2009, 06:46:39 PM
Ferris out injured.
Ryan Jones already called in.
The injury curse of Irish players on this tour continues. Awful news, especially given his good form so far.
Jones called up after Ferris blow Wales's Ryan Jones has been called up by the British and Irish Lions after Stephen Ferris was ruled out of their tour of South Africa by a knee injury.
The Ireland flanker tore the his medial collateral ligament in his right knee in training on Tuesday.
"Ryan is on the standby reserve list and has been playing over the last few weeks for Wales in the USA and Canada," said head coach Ian McGeechan.
"He will fit right in as he knows a lot of the players."
Is it just me, or is the Lions hoohaa gone well past its sell by date?
Or can you guys not get enough of stuff like this?
Quote from: Main Street on June 09, 2009, 07:10:20 PM
Is it just me, or is the Lions hoohaa gone well past its sell by date?
Or can you guys not get enough of stuff like this?
Sure things are only starting MS. The three tests are still to come!
Ferris will be a big loss come the tests. He brings a level of physicality to the table that no one else in the Lions touring party can match.
Denis Leamy is a bit unlucky to miss out in my view. He outplayed Ryan Jones when he came on in the grand slam game in Cardiff. That said, Jones was probably one of the Lions best players in NZ in 2005.
Quote from: Main Street on June 09, 2009, 07:10:20 PM
Is it just me, or is the Lions hoohaa gone well past its sell by date?
Or can you guys not get enough of stuff like this?
Definitely not past its sell by date as far as I'm concerned. Its a unique concept as far as professional sport is concerned nowadays. Sky do hype the balls off it but a Lions test is still one of the great sporting occasions.
Great concept. Maybe the Gaa should look at it.
Leinster could field a football team to tour the culchie strongholds of Tyrone, Kerry and Mayo every four years.
They could be called The Calves?
Don't be giving Mickey Harte ideas for his next column! ;)
Halpenny now gone home injured
did any of ye watch "the invincibles" on rte last night twas about the 1974 Lions
Enjoyed every minute of it. It was funny to see them carrying trays of beer and smoking like troopers. f**k me the fights were savage. Only one of the boks had a bad word to say about them.
Quote from: gerrykeegan on June 10, 2009, 11:04:17 AM
Enjoyed every minute of it. It was funny to see them carrying trays of beer and smoking like troopers. f**k me the fights were savage. Only one of the boks had a bad word to say about them.
some of the belts that were thrown in the 2nd test were unreal . That was a very funny story about willie John mc bride and Bennett and how willie was carrying him back to his hotel room because he hurt his knee and had a few pints on board next thing they heard a lion and Willie John took off leaving bennett there saying every man for himself :D
Quote from: the Deel Rover on June 10, 2009, 11:13:34 AM
Quote from: gerrykeegan on June 10, 2009, 11:04:17 AM
Enjoyed every minute of it. It was funny to see them carrying trays of beer and smoking like troopers. f**k me the fights were savage. Only one of the boks had a bad word to say about them.
some of the belts that were thrown in the 2nd test were unreal . That was a very funny story about willie John mc bride and Bennett and how willie was carrying him back to his hotel room because he hurt his knee and had a few pints on board next thing they heard a lion and Willie John took off leaving bennett there saying every man for himself :D
When Willie John took off didnt Bennett say he was still on his back and then cracked his head off a branch of a tree and when he fell down he heard WJ say everman for himself! It;s a pity some of the footage was so poor. I would lliked to have seen the scrum where the Lions won it against the head by the hooker using his head!
Finally a try god the Lions have been all over the Sharks for 25 mins. A better defensive unit than they've faced yet but execution hasn't been great for the Lions. Still struggling at times with the breakdown though which is a worry.
O'Gara loves his cross kicks!
Lions should have scored maybe 3 or 4 tries by now. Just cant seem to finish off their moves at the minute.
Poor enough show so far. Owned the ball but only up by 4.
Phillips is far too ponderous at the breakdown and ROG doesn't look like recapturing his best form anytime soon.
How on earth did Adam Jones get selected for this tour?? He's usually useful enough in the scrum but apart from that he offers absolutely nothing. I have my doubts about Lee Mears as well. His darts are on the money but he'll get blown away physically by the Boks. The ball he let go straight through the tunnel of the scrum when the Lions were camped on their five metre line is an absolutely criminal error from a hooker. I have a feeling Flannery is going to be badly missed come the tests.
Bit harsh on Mears I thought his throwing has been good, he's made some great runs and even got on the end of a try. At the minute he's on my test squad. Thought Jenkins was getting taken to the cleaners in the scrum but aapparently Kaplan isn't reffing it properly. Whoever understands what goes on in a scrum is a very wise man!
Fitzgerald looks sharp and much better than Williams at this stage!
Quote from: screenexile on June 10, 2009, 07:06:38 PM
Bit harsh on Mears I thought his throwing has been good, he's made some great runs and even got on the end of a try. At the minute he's on my test squad. Thought Jenkins was getting taken to the cleaners in the scrum but aapparently Kaplan isn't reffing it properly. Whoever understands what goes on in a scrum is a very wise man!
Fitzgerald looks sharp and much better than Williams at this stage!
Agree. Williams isn't in any sort of form to deserve a test place. Even if he had a decent game prior to selecting the Test team there is no consistency and he would be a risk. Sounds strange to be saying that as I thought he was almost guaranteed prior to the tour. Fitzgerald or Moyne for me.
Fitzgerald for me, been treated badly imo playing out of position in previous games but looked very good tonight.
Very worried about the amount of turnovers at the breakdown tonight. We haven't got a Neil Back or QUinlan even to boss that area for us and it looks like we will continue to struggle there. Was impressed by Heaslip tonight and I think his 2 performances have him as the standout 8 for the Test. Roberts and O'Driscoll again did well with Lee Mears impressing me as well. Still wouldn't fancy the task of picking a Test team. There will be some tough/close calls to make for that!
O'Driscoll sure has lost a good amount of his pace, didn't trust himself at all for that interception, still an exceptional character and test player.
Do seem a bit weak at the breakdown - could Martyn Williams get a chance on the test team? He's a good ball-winner anyway.
Quote from: DennistheMenace on June 10, 2009, 11:55:47 PM
O'Driscoll sure has lost a good amount of his pace, didn't trust himself at all for that interception, still an exceptional character and test player.
thought if o'driscoll hada angled his run with a few changes of direction he would scrored that breakaway interception try - running in a straight line made it easier to get tackled - ill have to pass on this wisdom to the great man himself.... :D
Ryan Jones gone already!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/8097774.stm
If he was concussed in the States how were they allowed to bring him on tour?
Picks up his 40k and all the gear anyway. leamy will get the shout after the first test i'd say.
Hs the look of a predominantly dirt track team today bar 3/4 on trial for starting spots
Looks like probably 5 Irish to make the test team at the moment.
O'Connell, Wallace, Heaslip, O'Driscoll and Bowe.
Jones needs a good one today to keep O'Gara out. Fitzgerald has a real chance of making it 6 Irish starters while Kearney has done nothing wrong he would need a stupendous game to dislodge Byrne.
Assuming O'Callaghan is jumping in his usual front of the line-out position and if he does very well today he is not out of it either as Wyn-Jones and O'Connell may be too similar to play together in McGeehan's eyes.
Martyn Williams could upset things but I'm sticking with the famous 5.
D'Arcy and Earls look out of it at the moment.
Always thought Bowe was a decent player but over the past 6 months he has really stepped up his game to develop into a top class winger. Having a deadly tour so far. Scored one today and set up another already.
Quote from: tyroneboi on June 13, 2009, 02:37:47 PM
Always thought Bowe was a decent player but over the past 6 months he has really stepped up his game to develop into a top class winger. Having a deadly tour so far. Scored one today and set up another already.
He seems to have bulked up seriously recently.
Lions win by three.
Bowe and Moyne likely starters now.
Martyn Williams was good and scored a try but it's a tight call between him and Wallace.
Stephen Jones had a mixed bag. If Hook starts on Tuesday, O'Gara could be the starter. Hook hit the winning penalty with Jones having missed from a similar distance earlier (similar to Cardiff).
O'Gara is the best outhalf on tour so far. Unless they go for the partnership of Jones and Phillips it will be O'Gara. Croft isn't in the same class as Wallace and Williams and I would go with both of those players for their experience with Heaslip at number 8. I would have Kearney on the left wing as well. Below is my team
15 Byrne
14 Bowe
13 O'Driscoll
12 Roberts
11 Kearney
10 O'Gara
9 Phillips
8 Heaslip
7 Wallace
6 Williams
5 O'Connell
4 I don't really know who to pick here, nobody stands out, try Wyn Jones
3 Vickery
2 Mears
1 Sheridan
That is 7 Irish, 5 Welsh and 3 English. What do you think about that?
Sheridan wont be on test team.
Jones was a mixed bag today. ROG might make team .
Backrow is 3 from 4. I think Wallace will miss out.
DOC might make bench.
Some interesting comments on the test team by the Sky Sports "experts":
Despite his poor performance, all think Stephen Jones is a shoe-in for 10.
Stu Barnes: If Lions want to play a kicking/territory game Kearney could play 11, all others went for Monye.
Dewi Morris: Wallace at 6, Williams at 7.
Will Greenwood: Croft 6, Williams 7. AW Jones at lock.
Ieuan Evans and Paul Wallace: Croft 6, Wallace 7. Hines at lock.
Greenwood, Evans and Wallace: Back subs to be Hook and Kearney so every position covered.
http://timesonline.typepad.com/sports_commentary/2009/06/vote-for-your-lions-xv.html
Lawrence Dallaglio
Lee Byrne (Wales); Tommy Bowe (Ire), Brian O'Driscoll (Ire), Jamie Roberts (Wales), Ugo Monye (Eng); Ronan O'Gara (Ire), Mike Phillips (Wales); Gethin Jenkins (Wales), Lee Mears (Eng), Phil Vickery (Eng), Simon Shaw (Eng), Paul O'Connell (Ire,capt), Tom Croft (Eng), Jamie Heaslip (Ire), David Wallace (Ire).
David Walsh
Lee Byrne (Wales); Tommy Bowe (Ire), Brian O'Driscoll (Ire), Jamie Roberts (Wales), Luke Fitzgerald (Ire); Ronan O'Gara (Ire), Mike Phillips (Wales); Gethin Jenkins (Wales), Lee Mears (Eng), Phil Vickery (Eng), Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), Paul O'Connell (Ire, capt), Tom Croft (Eng), Jamie Heaslip (Ire), David Wallace (Ire).
Stuart Barnes
Lee Byrne (Wales); Tommy Bowe (Ire), Brian O'Driscoll (Ire), Jamie Roberts (Wales), Ugo Monye (Eng); Stephen Jones (Wales), Mike Phillips (Wales); Gethin Jenkins (Wales), Lee Mears (Eng), Phil Vickery (Eng), Nathan Hines (Scot), Paul O'Connell (Ire, capt), Joe Worsley (Eng), Jamie Heaslip (Ire), Martyn Williams (Wales).
Stephen Jones
Lee Byrne (Wales); Tommy Bowe (Ire), Brian O'Driscoll (Ire), Jamie Roberts (Wales), Ugo Monye (Eng); Stephen Jones (Wales), Mike Phillips (Wales); Andrew Sheridan (Eng), Lee Mears (Eng), Phil Vickery (Eng, capt), Simon Shaw (Eng), Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), Joe Worsley (Eng), Jamie Heaslip (Ire), Martyn Williams (Wales).
Stephen Jones showing his colours again, why does he hate the Irish so much? He had managed to fit 6 english players into the team, its a wonder he hasnt shafted O'Driscoll for Flutey.
i had never of heard of Stephen Jones before, but everytime there is a rugby thread on here, he is always mentioned. what a w**ker. Did he ever play the game ? if he did it wasnt at a very high level.
This is his bio from the times, he prob wrote it himself!
Stephen Jones has been rugby correspondent of The Sunday Times for more than 20 years and is regarded as one of the sport's most influential commentators. Twice named Sports Correspondent of the Year by the Sports Journalists' Association, he won William Hill's Sports Book of the Year for Endless Winter.
The first line in his Wiki page sums it up ( though it does look like it has been written by a Irish fan pretty recently!!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jones_(journalist)
He is noted for his controversial and often provocative views, in particular his anti-Irish and anti-New Zealand tirades that have drawn much scorn from all corners of rugby
O'Callaghan to captain side tomorrow, Earls at full back, Darcy and Fitzgerald also start. O'gara and Wallace on bench.
Interesting that they start Hook at 10. Might see O'gara under a bit of pressure if he puts in a good shift.
Quote from: bingobus on June 15, 2009, 12:48:22 PM
O'Callaghan to captain side tomorrow, Earls at full back, Darcy and Fitzgerald also start. O'gara and Wallace on bench.
Interesting that they start Hook at 10. Might see O'gara under a bit of pressure if he puts in a good shift.
B team tomorrow. Hook is out of it for the 1st test as are all the other starters. Pity about Fitzgerald.
Williams is on the other wing, so that must mean Bowe and Monye on the wings for the first test. Kearney an outside chance.
Lions team: K Earls (Munster & Ireland); S Williams (Ospreys & Wales), R Flutey (Wasps & England), G D'Arcy (Leinster & Ireland), L Fitzgerald (Leinster & Ireland), J Hook (Ospreys & Wales), M Blair (Edinburgh & Scotland); A Sheridan (Sale Sharks & England), R Ford (Edinburgh & Scotland), E Murray (Northampton & Scotland), S Shaw (Wasps & England), D O'Callaghan (Munster & Ireland) (capt), N Hines (Perpignan & Scotland), J Worsley (Wasps & England), A Powell (Cardiff Blues & Wales).
Replacements: M Rees (Scarlets & Wales), A Jones (Ospreys & Wales), T Croft (Leicester Tigers & England), D Wallace (Munster & Ireland), H Ellis (Leicester Tigers & England), R O'Gara (Munster & Ireland), U Monye (Harlequins & England).
Can't see any of this starting 15 making the test team at wkd, unless there are some injuries.
My team for 1st test would be
1. Jenkins
2. Mears
3. Vickery
4.POC
5.Wyn-Jones
6. Croft
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip
9. Phillips
11. Monye
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Byrne
Aye the test team seems pretty much sorted. Only real close call there is now is Williams or Wallace, or both.
Quote from: gawa316 on June 15, 2009, 01:06:33 PM
Lions team: K Earls (Munster & Ireland); S Williams (Ospreys & Wales), R Flutey (Wasps & England), G D'Arcy (Leinster & Ireland), L Fitzgerald (Leinster & Ireland), J Hook (Ospreys & Wales), M Blair (Edinburgh & Scotland); A Sheridan (Sale Sharks & England), R Ford (Edinburgh & Scotland), E Murray (Northampton & Scotland), S Shaw (Wasps & England), D O'Callaghan (Munster & Ireland) (capt), N Hines (Perpignan & Scotland), J Worsley (Wasps & England), A Powell (Cardiff Blues & Wales).
Replacements: M Rees (Scarlets & Wales), A Jones (Ospreys & Wales), T Croft (Leicester Tigers & England), D Wallace (Munster & Ireland), H Ellis (Leicester Tigers & England), R O'Gara (Munster & Ireland), U Monye (Harlequins & England).
Can't see any of this starting 15 making the test team at wkd, unless there are some injuries.
My team for 1st test would be
1. Jenkins
2. Mears
3. Vickery
4.POC
5.Wyn-Jones
6. Croft
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip
9. Phillips
11. Monye
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Byrne
cant see us winning with that team, who is the kicker ? ;)
I wouldn't have Ugo Monye ahead of Luke Fitzgerald or Phil Vickery ahead of Euan Murray. Monye is undoubtedly quicker than Fitzgerald but he doesn't possess anywhere near the same footballing ability. Vickery is a great leader but he can be quite indisciplined at times (as seen in Croke Park in the 6N). Euan Murray is a far more destructive scrummagger.
Apart from them two I'd be happy with a test team of: Byrne, Bowe, BO'D, Roberts, Monye, Jones, Phillips, Jenkins, Mears, Vickery, W-Jones, PO'C, Croft, Wally, Heaslip.
I still have concerns over the hooker but the alternatives in Rees or Ford don't exactly inspire confidence either. It's a pity that Fla missed out through injury. Anyone else see him at the Churchill Cup match last night with his girl's glasses! ;D
monye might be more physical than fitzgerald maybe ?
i think there will be at least one shock, either an omission or an inclusion, there always is.
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on June 15, 2009, 01:18:48 PM
Quote from: gawa316 on June 15, 2009, 01:06:33 PM
Lions team: K Earls (Munster & Ireland); S Williams (Ospreys & Wales), R Flutey (Wasps & England), G D'Arcy (Leinster & Ireland), L Fitzgerald (Leinster & Ireland), J Hook (Ospreys & Wales), M Blair (Edinburgh & Scotland); A Sheridan (Sale Sharks & England), R Ford (Edinburgh & Scotland), E Murray (Northampton & Scotland), S Shaw (Wasps & England), D O'Callaghan (Munster & Ireland) (capt), N Hines (Perpignan & Scotland), J Worsley (Wasps & England), A Powell (Cardiff Blues & Wales).
Replacements: M Rees (Scarlets & Wales), A Jones (Ospreys & Wales), T Croft (Leicester Tigers & England), D Wallace (Munster & Ireland), H Ellis (Leicester Tigers & England), R O'Gara (Munster & Ireland), U Monye (Harlequins & England).
Can't see any of this starting 15 making the test team at wkd, unless there are some injuries.
My team for 1st test would be
1. Jenkins
2. Mears
3. Vickery
4.POC
5.Wyn-Jones
6. Croft
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip
9. Phillips
11. Monye
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Byrne
cant see us winning with that team, who is the kicker ? ;)
Oh feck forgot about Jones
Living with Lions on again now on SS1 for anyone who hasnt had the pleasure of seeing it
Word is that Matfield and Bakkies Botha are planning to batter O'Connell
Quote from: turk on June 15, 2009, 10:38:12 PM
Word is that Matfield and Bakkies Botha are planning to batter O'Connell
Only O'Connell?
Quote from: turk on June 15, 2009, 10:38:12 PM
Word is that Matfield and Bakkies Botha are planning to batter O'Connell
Just like they did in the Autumn International in '04 I suppose?
O'Connell with Big Mal alongside him totally outplayed them that day.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on June 15, 2009, 11:00:30 PM
Quote from: turk on June 15, 2009, 10:38:12 PM
Word is that Matfield and Bakkies Botha are planning to batter O'Connell
Just like they did in the Autumn International in '04 I suppose?
O'Connell with Big Mal alongside him totally outplayed them that day.
That's a friendly from 5 year ago (or was it in 2006?) you're talking about. While Ireland went on and stank out the last world cup, RSA went on and won it.
Hopefully O'Connell will come out on top at the weekend but the 'boks' aren't gonna lie down and wait for him to get back to form.
No it is '04 I'm on about - neither Matfield or Botha played in '06.
It didn't look very "friendly" from my vantage point on the terrace that day either.
Pity the Lions didn't bring along Big Mal so!
There's only so many tackle bags that need holding! ;)
Monye starting today instead of Shane Williams.
That might give a small opportunity for Luke Fitz to pass him out in the race for the 11 jersey.
Not necessarily my picks but what i believe they'll go with:
1 - Jenkins
2 - Mears
3 - Vickey
4 - Wyn Jones
5 - O'Connell
6 - Croft
7 - Williams
8 - Heaslip
9 - Phillips
10 - Jones
11 - Moyne
12 - Roberts
13 - O'Drsicoll
14 - Bowe
15 - Byrne
16 - Rees
17 - Jones
18 - Sheridan
19 - O'Callaghan
20 - Wallace
21 - Hook
22 - Kearney
Quote from: Aghdavoyle on June 16, 2009, 11:51:05 AM
Not necessarily my picks but what i believe they'll go with:
1 - Jenkins
2 - Mears
3 - Vickey
4 - Wyn Jones
5 - O'Connell
6 - Croft
7 - Williams
8 - Heaslip
9 - Phillips
10 - Jones
11 - Moyne
12 - Roberts
13 - O'Drsicoll
14 - Bowe
15 - Byrne
16 - Rees
17 - Jones
18 - Sheridan
19 - O'Callaghan
20 - Wallace
21 - Hook
22 - Kearney
No scrum half on the bench?
No need for 2 props on the bench. Swap Ellis for A Jones and that would be the squad I'd expect. Maybe Hines for DOC too but that depends on the game today.
all 3 scrum halves are actually not 100% fit. Blair is to have a late fitness test today to see if he can play. i read somewhere that Shane Williams was the only fit cover for Blair, but now he is out sick too. ( I didnt know Williams was a scrum half, must have been a whike ago)
The wait is over! After weeks of suspense the Springboks have named their team for the first Test against the British and Irish Lions. Ruan Pienaar starts at fly-half, Heinrich Brüssow at flank and Frans Steyn at full-back.
Springbok coach Peter de Villiers on Tuesday named a squad of 22 players with a combined total of 707 caps for the first Test at the Absa Stadium Durban.
John Smit, the most experienced member of the team, will lead the Springboks out in their first duel against the British & Irish Lions since 1997.
Sixteen players in the match 22 participated in the Springboks' previous test, against England at Twickenham in November 2008.
The Test will be the 44th encounter between the Springboks and the Lions since 1891. South Africa has won 21, the Lions 16 and 6 Tests have been drawn.
The Test will be the fourth between the Springboks and the Lions to be played in Durban. The Springboks have won two of the previous three (1924 and 1962) and the Lions one (1997).
Free State Cheetahs flanker Heinrich Brüssow will make his first Test start after earning his first cap as from the bench against England in November 2008.
Blue Bulls fly-half Morné Steyn is the only uncapped player in the squad of 22.
Free State Cheetahs flanker Juan Smith needs one try to become the sole record holder for the most tries as a Springbok flanker. The same goes for Sharks front rower Bismarck du Plessis in the hooker position.
South Africa: 15 Frans Steyn, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Adi Jacobs, 12 Jean de Villiers, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Ruan Pienaar, 9 Fourie du Preez, 8 Pierre Spies, 7 Juan Smith, 6 Heinrich Brüssow, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Bakkies Botha, 3 John Smit (c), 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Tendai Mtawarira.
Replacements: 16 Gurthrö Steenkamp, 17 Deon Carstens, 18 Andries Bekker, 19 Danie Rossouw, 20 Ricky Januarie, 21 Jaque Fourie, 22 Morné Steyn.
Date: Saturday, June 20
Venue: ABSA Stadium Durban
Kick-off: 15.00 (13.00 GMT)
Referee: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Stuart Dickinson, Vinny Munro (New Zealand)
Television match official: Christophe Berdos (France)
Assessor: Tappe Henning (South Africa)
Quote from: gawa316 on June 16, 2009, 12:04:35 PM
No scrum half on the bench?
oops - i thought i was having too many options on the bench! yeah, ellis for jones.
f**k the Lions are playing some woeful stuff
http://www.justin.tv/europeanrugbyfan
Absolute shite from the Lions. Southern Kings are totally bossing the game from open play and their defence and physicality is excellent.
Lions kicking, rucking, passing and decision making has been appaling. Not too many of the lads on show will make an impact on the 22 for Saturday!!
well everyone reckons Fitzgerald or Monye will be left wing, with Shane Williams off form and sick, maybe Rob Kearney is in with a shout
Not sure I think Kearney may have done himself a favour not playing today he's a definite option for the Wing now. If I hat to pick between Fitzgerald and Monye though I think Fitzgerald is a better all round player with a better kicking game and a bit better through the hands whereas Monye is more of a speedy battering ram who can finish you tries.
Both wingers were average at best today . Kearney has played better than either but cant see them changing it now.
Earls was very good at times today and until a horrible missed tackle near the end thought he might even have played himself onto bench.
DOC and Shaw both played well. I wouldnt have AWJ ahead of either. ROG has played ( and tackled) well on this tour but cant see him starting.
The IRB really should of hyped this game. The first Lions game to be played on a beach.
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on June 16, 2009, 02:59:42 PM
well everyone reckons Fitzgerald or Monye will be left wing, with Shane Williams off form and sick, maybe Rob Kearney is in with a shout
Fitz is 3rd after Bowe and Moyne.
To echo the sentiments of some of the other lads, jones is an absolute p***k. Leaving poc out, wtf? I'm pretty sure I also remember Reading some load of balls by him before the tour that he wouldn't even take bod. You really would have to question very deeply whether he was taking the piss. Anyone else remember this or does my memory fail me?
He'd been advocating leaving O'Driscoll out since the turn of the year. Even after the 6N he didn't select BOD in his team of the tournament. He eventually softened his stance after the latter stages of the Heineken Cup and the subsequent injury to Shanklin.
I'd say Jones would still be arguing against BOD's inclusion if Shanklin was on tour. The guy is a complete gobsh1te.
Quote from: erne bhoy on June 17, 2009, 12:31:23 AM
To echo the sentiments of some of the other lads, jones is an absolute p***k. Leaving poc out, wtf? I'm pretty sure I also remember Reading some load of balls by him before the tour that he wouldn't even take bod. You really would have to question very deeply whether he was taking the piss. Anyone else remember this or does my memory fail me?
O'Connell hasn't had a great tour so far tbf. But to suggest leaving out the captain is bizarre and completely outrageous by Jones. Prior to 6N he had a point he had a point about O'Driscoll. Post-6N never mind the Euro Cup O'Driscoll was more or less guaranteed a Test spot if he kept any sort of form whatsoever. He wasn't so good last year (think he admits his form has turned too) but he has had an absolutely outstanding year. Just need three big games from him now 8)
Quote from: erne bhoy on June 17, 2009, 12:31:23 AM
To echo the sentiments of some of the other lads, jones is an absolute p***k. Leaving poc out, wtf? I'm pretty sure I also remember Reading some load of balls by him before the tour that he wouldn't even take bod. You really would have to question very deeply whether he was taking the piss. Anyone else remember this or does my memory fail me?
The Kevin Myers of rugby journalism, I think he knows what he is doing.
On Sky Sports on Saturday night, Scott Quinnell also left POC out of his test team. He went with AW Jones and Shaw. Said he'd bring O'Connell on for Shaw after about 50 minutes.
As for the Lions game yesterday, Earls showed his strengths and weaknesses. With ball in hand he was superb, the extra space a 15 gets suited him down to the ground and he made some excellent runs. However, both his kicking and his tackling need a lot of work.
O'Gara played really well, far better than Jones did last time. Though missing touch with a penalty with 2 or 3 minutes to go was a bad time to make a bad error. Hook's injury will ensure he gets a place on the bench though.
Luke Fitz continues to look very sharp, but again didnt get the opportunity to really show his stuff, therefore it'll be Moyne and Kearney who between them will get the 11 jersey and the bench place. With Kearney's big boot, I think he still has a real chance of starting, with Monye to be sprung in the last 15/20 mins.
PS: Heard Monye and O'Gara moaning about the overly physical nature of the opposition. Don't see the point in that at all. The Southern Kings were absolutely within their rights to be as physical as the officials would allow them to be. If they did cross the line its the officials the Lions should be complaining, rather than whinging about the S.Africans.
Agree Hound!
Surely the touring players are aware that aggressive play is common during the midweek matches!!!!!!1
http://www.lionsrugby.com/news/8140.php
As expected
David Wallace is lucky enough. I'd say the fact the Philips was nailed on helped Jones as well, although I actually think Jones' size makes him a better bet against the 'Boks.
Good to see Donnacha O'Callaghan on the bench.
No real suprises, should be a great first test.
Shane Williams not on the binch even !!
Quote from: orangeman on June 18, 2009, 01:06:24 PM
Shane Williams not on the binch even !!
Nor Fitzgerald, who was tipped to possibly start. Kearney must be the Wing cover aswell as cover for Byrne, which makes sense i suppose
I just wonder have they got the back row balance right. An awful shame that Flannery got injured and/or that Best wasn't brought along. Think we'll see O'Gara after 60 to hopefully land a few pens to seal a win.
Looking at that bench they are very light on cover outside 10 and that leads me to believe that Hook would have been there instead of O'Gara if he was fit.
Quote from: muppet on June 18, 2009, 02:39:00 PM
Looking at that bench they are very light on cover outside 10 and that leads me to believe that Hook would have been there instead of O'Gara if he was fit.
Fair point muppet. O'Gara hasn't done enough for me on this Tour to be fair and I think Jones was always going to get the nod over him. O'Gara offers frail defence and no option as a runner and even in the games he's played O'Gara's kicking from hand hasn't been great and Jones is able to control a game just as well as O'Gara so I think it was a no brainer really.
A very good split between the English, Irish and Welsh with 5 a piece from Ireland and England and 6 from Wales. Having seen the team named and the subs I am confident the Lions can do well and I'm sure Gatland and Edwards have held plenty back to be unleashed for the First Test that will have the Boks thinking. Also the Lions should be much sharper having played so many warm up games and the Boks having only had one warm up against Namibia. If they want any hope of winning the series this game needs to be won when South Africa will not be at their optimum level from the start.
Roll on Saturday!
Is Williams not down with some sort of bug or some sickness? Moyne was late replacement for him the other day
I wouldn't have Ugo Monye in there but it is hard to argue with that selection. The only other positions that looked up for grabs were in the back row where they've gone for Wally's power and ball-carrying over Williams' groundhog prowess. The split between the nationalities is good but I can't help thinking that Flannery and Ferris would be playing if they were fit.
I think Saturday's test is the Lions best chance of a win against the Boks. I don't think they'll get whitewashed in this series and it wouldn't surprise me at all if they turned over the Boks on Saturday.
Rumour doing the rounds that the Bull Hayes has been called up to replace Euan Murray. No more than the great man deserves if its true.
Decent price to win on Saturday - think its 5/2 or something like that. Worth a punt I think.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on June 18, 2009, 03:01:21 PM
Rumour doing the rounds that the Bull Hayes has been called up to replace Euan Murray. No more than the great man deserves if its true.
This is true alright, the Bull is on his way!
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/9670.php
Quote from: screenexile on June 18, 2009, 02:44:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 18, 2009, 02:39:00 PM
Looking at that bench they are very light on cover outside 10 and that leads me to believe that Hook would have been there instead of O'Gara if he was fit.
Fair point muppet. O'Gara hasn't done enough for me on this Tour to be fair and I think Jones was always going to get the nod over him. O'Gara offers frail defence and no option as a runner and even in the games he's played O'Gara's kicking from hand hasn't been great and Jones is able to control a game just as well as O'Gara so I think it was a no brainer really.
A very good split between the English, Irish and Welsh with 5 a piece from Ireland and England and 6 from Wales. Having seen the team named and the subs I am confident the Lions can do well and I'm sure Gatland and Edwards have held plenty back to be unleashed for the First Test that will have the Boks thinking. Also the Lions should be much sharper having played so many warm up games and the Boks having only had one warm up against Namibia. If they want any hope of winning the series this game needs to be won when South Africa will not be at their optimum level from the start.
Roll on Saturday!
I think you have one too many englishmen!
So too does that team imo..... Monye is suspect defensively, and Mears is going to be eaten alive.
G'wan the Bull! Tis your field.
Don't think our friend Stephen Jones is going to be too happy with that call up! ;D
Not too much to argue about really. I have a feeling that if Ferris had been there, it would have been himself and Williams and Wallace would have missed out. I'm not sure about the Monye hype at all - lightning quick and good in the tackle when he is there, but his positioning is shambolic on occasions. I thought he was brutal againt Western Province but we had Stuart Barnes ogling over the try that Bowe laid on a plate for him - you'd have expected any club wing to finish that one.
In the Rog vs Jones debate, ordinarily I would go for Jones as think he is jsut more solid but I have to say that I think if they had picked purely on form then Rog should have got the nod - too much being read into the Golden Lions game I think.
Not sure whether I'd have Kearney or Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald hasn't set the world alight but I think he is a good finisher and solid defensively - I'd probably have him on the wing and Kearney on the bench.
Anyone have an online source to watch this on? Was going to watch it in work but they're all watching the shagging golf!
First test just under an hour away - cant wait!!
Try this gallsman: http://www.justin.tv/live24live
Quote from: tyroneboi on June 20, 2009, 01:06:01 PM
First test just under an hour away - cant wait!!
Try this gallsman: http://www.justin.tv/live24live
Cheers. When did justin start working again or does it just cause problems when I'm down south?
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2009, 01:10:40 PM
Quote from: tyroneboi on June 20, 2009, 01:06:01 PM
First test just under an hour away - cant wait!!
Try this gallsman: http://www.justin.tv/live24live
Cheers. When did justin start working again or does it just cause problems when I'm down south?
I have never had a problem with it though I haven't used it in a while so there might have been problems.
Confident enough for the Lions today reckon they could just sneak it but lose today and it will be hard to avoid another whitewash in the series.
Anyone else just lost their audio?
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2009, 01:58:31 PM
Anyone else just lost their audio?
Can't hear you ?
Try down to Monye. Get Kearney on right now!
Think it was a try.
No try.
::)
A great tackle, didn't touch down.
Stupid, stupid tackle from Croft. What the hell did he think he was doing?
At least he made up for it there! Great run by BOD, there's the partnership with him and Roberts showing up well again.
Quote from: Schkite on June 20, 2009, 02:31:17 PM
At least he made up for it there! Great run by BOD, there's the partnership with him and Roberts showing up well again.
Hmmm, I'll give him the benefit. I could have finished that one off! Bit of redemption for Jones in there too.
Aye in fairness it was more about the build up and it was a stupid tackle before. Good for Jones to get his first kick over at last.
Bit of a harsh call on the crossing there, no?
It's not on terrestial tv at any time, not even the highlights.
That a bit of a damp squib on the Lions strike for glory.
ah well, back to the gardening.
If Lions can stay away from the set piece we can win this thing I think. From open play the Boks are struggling to cope with O'Driscoll and Roberts.
God the lineout and scrum are getting destroyed though.
Quote from: screenexile on June 20, 2009, 02:38:42 PM
If Lions can stay away from the set piece we can win this thing I think. From open play the Boks are struggling to cope with O'Driscoll and Roberts.
God the lineout and scrum are getting destroyed though.
SA are very good in the scrum. The beast is eating them.
Quote from: orangeman on June 20, 2009, 02:41:29 PM
Quote from: screenexile on June 20, 2009, 02:38:42 PM
If Lions can stay away from the set piece we can win this thing I think. From open play the Boks are struggling to cope with O'Driscoll and Roberts.
God the lineout and scrum are getting destroyed though.
SA are very good in the scrum. The beast is eating them.
Vickery has to go at half time. That's three or four now.
Kearney on for Byrne. Get Vickery off to fcuk.
Vickery again!!
What happened there? Was that the ref saying "sorry"? Was he apologising for blowing for no reason?
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2009, 02:47:48 PM
What happened there? Was that the ref saying "sorry"? Was he apologising for blowing for no reason?
Lions were in posession and were away but he didn't allow advantage and apologised. You wouldn't get a gaa ref to ever say he was wrong.
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2009, 02:47:48 PM
What happened there? Was that the ref saying "sorry"? Was he apologising for blowing for no reason?
Yeah he blew for the ball being out when it wasn't
Apologising for not playing the advantage.
The one time Roberts gets his hands on the ball the Lions scored a try. Get the f**king ball to him and BOD. Scrum is getting hammered out there. Still in the game but first score is crucial. The 2 missed kicks from Jones could be crucial, he should definitely have got the 2nd one he missed and the 1st was difficult to be fair.
Quote from: tyroneboi on June 20, 2009, 02:54:01 PM
Apologising for not playing the advantage.
The one time Roberts gets his hands on the ball the Lions scored a try. Get the f**king ball to him and BOD. Scrum is getting hammered out there. Still in the game but first score is crucial. The 2 missed kicks from Jones could be crucial, he should definitely have got the 2nd one he missed and the 1st was difficult to be fair.
Fair enough he apologised, but the advantage is a crucial and long standing part of the game. How on earth can a top level ref make that call?
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2009, 02:57:19 PM
Quote from: tyroneboi on June 20, 2009, 02:54:01 PM
Apologising for not playing the advantage.
The one time Roberts gets his hands on the ball the Lions scored a try. Get the f**king ball to him and BOD. Scrum is getting hammered out there. Still in the game but first score is crucial. The 2 missed kicks from Jones could be crucial, he should definitely have got the 2nd one he missed and the 1st was difficult to be fair.
Fair enough he apologised, but the advantage is a crucial and long standing part of the game. How on earth can a top level ref make that call?
True and it could have been very costly only for Piennar missing the penalty from another scrum infringement.
Lions backs actually look dangerous when they get the ball but they just can't get enough good possession while Vickery is getting demolished in the scrums and conceding penalty after penalty.
Why does Phillips keeping going down the blindside? Get the ball out to the backs FFS!
Just before half time the ref threatened to card vickery if he concedes from anaother scrum, cant believe he was not changed
Another line out lost! Great kick from Kearney.
Boks maul murdered the lions there
Vickery off, finally.
Quote from: DennistheMenace on June 20, 2009, 03:06:10 PM
Vickery off, finally.
Thank God.
SA going for the kill here !!!!!!!!!!!!
How many penalties is that? South Africa are gonna try and finish the job here and now!
Game well and truly over!
Game over, fully expect a 3-0 test win for SA.
Quote from: orangeman on June 20, 2009, 03:06:56 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on June 20, 2009, 03:06:10 PM
Vickery off, finally.
Thank God.
SA going for the kill here !!!!!!!!!!!!
Lions are dead ! Such power. 60 yards of a maul.
WATS THE CURRENT SCORE?
Boks pack murdering the lions completly in command
Quote from: RGU08 on June 20, 2009, 03:08:37 PM
WATS THE CURRENT SCORE?
SA 26
Lions 7
Whitewash on the way.
Quote from: RGU08 on June 20, 2009, 03:08:37 PM
WATS THE CURRENT SCORE?
Game over with 32 minutes left.
26-7 Lions getting destroyed completely. Boks too strong in all areas and our only hope is to get the ball to the backs and hope some magic comes off. Hopefully Jones will steady the scrum which will help things. If we're to have any chance we need the next score. Oh and I'd put O'Gara on at this stage too Jones has given us nothing!
Quote from: screenexile on June 20, 2009, 03:10:38 PM
26-7 Lions getting destroyed completely. Boks too strong in all areas and our only hope is to get the ball to the backs and hope some magic comes off. Hopefully Jones will steady the scrum which will help things. If we're to have any chance we need the next score. Oh and I'd put O'Gara on at this stage too Jones has given us nothing!
[/b]
Jones has been horrible.
i backed the whitewash at 6/4 looks like easy money now.
Very close call on the Boks line.
Quote from: gallsman on June 20, 2009, 03:14:39 PM
Very close call on the Boks line.
Easy decision in the end though, no try correct call.
Absolute stupidity from Rees there, idiot.
Quote from: Schkite on June 20, 2009, 03:19:30 PM
Absolute stupidity from Rees there, idiot.
Madness.
Pienaar is killing them.
Quote from: orangeman on June 20, 2009, 03:25:04 PM
Pienaar is killing them.
Yeah his kicking has been unreal.
Do Everton know he's playing ?
Croft again, day to remember for him despite the result.
2 tries for Croft. Hope for next week.
DOC on for AWJ.
How mnay times have the South Africans dislodged the ball in try scoring postions ?? Very strong in the tackle.
Fcking useless, my +8 isn't looking good.
Monye at fault though
So close from Monye, brilliant tackle though yeah. Another try in the Lions.
Monye should have passed that wide just now.
South Africa let up too early I think. It's still there!!
Pienaar back on again. The Lions fancy themselves now.
game on now
Some try by Philips ! Game on. We're in for an exciting 5 minutes.
:o
Can they get another try to win it? Momentum with them now.
Just a converted try for the win! Is it possible?
GO ON THE LIONS!!!!!!
Quote from: Schkite on June 20, 2009, 03:43:17 PM
Just a converted try for the win! Is it possible?
South Africa are rocking !
What a finish, outstanding. Come on one more try.
Quote from: gerrykeegan on June 20, 2009, 03:13:17 PM
i backed the whitewash at 6/4 looks like easy money now.
sweating a bit Gerry
Another lin-ut lost but then a knock-on! A minute and a half left, come on!
Jones kick was terrible and the lineout hasn't been good.
One last chance.
Game over. Good effort by the Lions. Hoping for more of the same next week.
SA took the foot off the gas too early.
Certainly one that got away. Disastrous penalties from Vickery, misses by Jones, drops by Monye. Could have, should have etc.
Encouraging recovery for the Lions and hope for next week, but SA had took the foot off the gas and some players off. Still, they know what to expect and will be better prepared for the next game. Only for BOD and Roberts we'd have been fcuked!
The feed I watched on Justin.tv was from South African TV and in its analysis of the Monye chances, they pointed out that on both occasions he was carrying the ball in the "wrong" arm, effectively making it easier for the tackler to reach the ball. Get Fitzy in next week!
Monye strikes me as the kind of player who looks good when its put on a plate for him, but he looked limited under pressure, especially when he found himself infield. Surely fitzgerald offers way more invention?
Both Kearney and Fitz have a good shout for selection next week. Even ROG has a shout after Jones missing a few kicks but the left wing is certainly up for grabs after Monye missed his chances.
Did Botha not knock the ball out of Phillips hand meaning that a try should have been awarded, and was it not the same for the second Monye failure to ground the ball.
Also when the Springboks were rolling the maul in the build up to the mauled try. Shouldn't the Lions simply have stopped contesting the maul and force the South Africans to play? You are not allowed to bring the maul down any more but haven't they gone back to the previous rules where you don't have to contest it or have they gone back to a more ancient version of the rules?
A good game but I am not sure where that leaves the Lions now. Tony Ward was saying that if they didn't win today they could forget about it, but I am not so sure. I don't think the scrum will be as bad the next day and we seem to have much more attacking threat out wide, there is still some hope even though the games are at altitude.
Is Lee Byrne finished?
One last thing. Croft's two tries were presented to him on a plate by BOD, and disguised an otherwise poor performance. The foul tackle on du Preez was criminal- he had no need to use the shoulder, plenty of time to wrap the arms.
Quote from: whiskeysteve on June 20, 2009, 04:11:52 PM
Monye strikes me as the kind of player who looks good when its put on a plate for him, but he looked limited under pressure, especially when he found himself infield. Surely fitzgerald offers way more invention?
Have to agree there, Fitzgerald for me is an unreal finisher and I'd say he'd thrive on the big game pressure..runs good lines inside too. Hope he starts next week. Good second half performance though.
At least the Paddies are off the hook when it comes to inevitable blame game over the defeat. ;)
Don't kid yourself, just wait to see Stephen Jones writing in the Times tomorrow. O 'Connell as Captain will ship a lot of the blame in the British press tomorrow.
I suppose the thing about Croft and his 2 tries is that he was in the right place at the right time, however he may have been more needed inside doing the donkey work during the course of the game rather than hanging out in midfield with the Lions 2 best players to benefit from their good play all he had to do was little more than fall over the line really. He wasn't able to help the Lions dominate at the line out. The throwing in wasn't all that it could have been.
Jasus Vickery was shocking , should of been off after 20 minutes. Game lost in the scrum in the first half.
Watching the replay on justin tv. Did Croft ground the ball for his first try, I am not so sure.
Also the time Lee Byrne was pulled up for obstruction/ offside when he made the dummy run and O'Driscoll made a break that would have lead to a try. The ref geve a penalty to the South Africans. I thought that was very harsh to say the least. Byrne ran into a gap and the 2 South African players moved towards where he ran and tried to tackle him, he did not get in their way or stop them from tackling O'Driscoll, they bought the dummy comletely and the Lions should have been allowed to play on, not a penalty in my opinion.
Not being wise after the event or anything but I thought that the relatively straightforward penalty that Jones missed at 10-0 may come back to haunt us and it did. If he had got it, then that last penalty we got could have won it. Plenty of positives to take from it mainly get the ball to Roberts and O'Driscoll as much as possible in the 2nd test.
The two run in tries for Tom Croft really covered up for an average enough performance from him and here is a sneak peak of what the Sunday papers will be like tomorrow when talking about his performance. This is from BBC Sport website.
Tom Croft - 8: How could he have been left out of the original squad. A superb performance. Often the first Lions player to the breakdown, great work-rate and took his chances very well. World class..
I cant't agree with those criticising Croft's performance. The only two stand out performers were BOD and Roberts whilst Croft was certainly not 'average' as has been suggested, I feel that his partners in the back row were much less impressive (even if you take away the two tries) and Wallace especially will face a battle to keep his place.
I'm not usually a great fan of ROG's but I think Jones' miss for the second kick was inexcusable and as such I'd give ROG a chance next week. I was a bit disappointed with Lee Byrne while he was on and Kearney certainly did himself no harm in the time he was on so that will be a tight one next week if Byrne is fit.
Today was probably the Lions' best chance of a test win given that you'd have felt beforehand that the Springboks might be a bit undercooked and the next test will be at altitude. There's plenty of positives to take from the second half performance though and the series isn't done and dusted yet. Roberts and O'Driscoll carved them open in the last quarter but they had been starved of ball all day.
Vickery got absolutely mullered in the scrum and this set the tone. Euan Murray's destructiveness was badly missed. I've never really rated Adam Jones but in fairness to the guy he did a good job in helping stabalise the scrum in the second half. Lee Mears' darts were poor and he was blown away physically. I'd like to see Ross Ford given an opportunity - far more physical and a big ball carrier.
I too think Croft's tries masked a fairly disappointing performance. He doesn't have enough dog in him compared to someone like Ferris. That said, Wally and Heaslip weren't any better but it's always hard for a backrow when you're backpeddling on your own scrum.
The backs looked threatening anytime they got ball and they'll do damage if the forwards can get some sort of parity next week. Phillips was impressive at the base and Stephen Jones was solid enough apart from the place-kicking. He has a quare way of kicking the ball from the floor and it can often go wrong for him. ROG should see some gametime next week. Monye is probably the only other back who is under threat assuming Byrne is out. He was caught in no mans land in the build up to the first try and any international class winger should be putting away the two opportunities that came his way. He had the ball in the wrong hand on both occasions and went in far too high and upright.
If only Bowe had have got the opportunities Monye got today you would think he would have got at least one of them. Still think Jones is a better option than ROG. I think ROG kicks far too much ball away and they way the centres played today, they need the ball to stay in hand as much as possible. If Hook recovers then ROG might not even make the 22.
Edit: I see Mr Jones from The Times only gave O'Driscoll a 7/10 ... thought he deserved more than that. He did give O'Connell a 7 as well though which surprised me even more given his negative comments about him before and throughout the tour.
I can only go by justin.tv pictures, but Monye and Vickery really cost the Lions a fistful of points.
Too much could be read into the comeback though.
South Africa wouldn't have emptied the bench and replaced half their team if the game was in the balance.
Starting Luke Fitzgerald and Adam Jones the next day looks fairly obvious, but it might be a completely different game with a couple of other players getting shown up.
The centre combination of Roberts and O'Driscoll looks like the most likely source of a Lions victory the next day.
McGeechan should consider starting James Hook as he is the best option to get the line moving.
Mike Phillips wasn't 8/10 as Jones in the Times rated him and could do with getting his passes away quicker.
I'd nearly chance giving Shane Williams game time. His form is poor, but he is capable of finishing like no one else on the squad can.
With regards to playing the game at altitude I think it might be wise to give O'Gara the game as he is the better tactical kiaker and the ball travels further at altitude. O'Gara has also been more accurate when kicking for goal on this tour and this might really count in what will I expect be a dog fight of a game next week.
I suppose the glass is half full with Croft, but I would be certain that 2 tries like those do not make you world class. I think anyone in the oack including the props would have scored them. He was in the right place at the right time that is fannying about in midfield with O'Drisoll and Roberts. He gives you soemthing good but then you are losing something elsewhere.
Just watching the Churchill Cup Final - any chance they'll call up Neil Best for the second test!! :o
Team versus emerging Spring Bok
British and Irish Lions: 15 Keith Earls (Munster/Ireland), 14 Shane Williams (Ospreys/Wales), 13 Riki Flutey (London Wasps/England), 12 Gordon D'Arcy (Leinster/Ireland), 11 Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster/Ireland), 10 Ronan O'Gara (Munster/Ireland), 9 Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers/England), 8 Andy Powell (Cardiff Blues/Wales), 7 Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales), 6 Joe Worsley (London Wasps/England), 5 Nathan Hines (Perpignan/Scotland), 4 Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster/Ireland), 3 John Hayes (Munster/Ireland), 2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh/Scotland), 1 Tim Payne (London Wasps/England).
Replacements: 16 Lee Mears (Bath/England), 17 Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England), 18 Simon Shaw (London Wasps/England), 19 David Wallace (Munster/Ireland), 20 Mike Blair (Edinburgh/Scotland), 21 James Hook (Ospreys/Wales), 22 Ugo Monye (Harlequins/England).
They're taking the piss calling up Tim Payne. I'm sure if he wasn't a Wasps player he wouldn't have even been considered. I've always been impressed with David Flatman's scrummaging and he gave Tony Buckley a very hard time of it last night. I'd have had both Marcus and even Cian Healy ahead of Payne as well.
Good to see the Bull in the front row - what a great servant to Munster and Ireland. O'Gara needs to impose himself on this game right from the start and I suspect whichever one of the wings plays better will leapfrog Monye for Saturday.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on June 21, 2009, 10:22:25 PM
Just watching the Churchill Cup Final - any chance they'll call up Neil Best for the second test!! :o
Is Best back after his gouging, always rated him for his abrasive approach?
anyone see the game? O'Gara taken off after 44 minutes but from BBC looks like he played quite well. Is that an indication he will start? I'm not Rog's biggest fan but think he has been best outhalf on tour and probably deserves his place. Seems O'Callaghan also had decent game and Earls scored the try. Have seen a few negative comments about Fitzgerald however, which probably means that if Lee Byrne is fit, Kearney will get the nod on the wing.
Quote from: CiKe on June 23, 2009, 08:46:21 PM
anyone see the game? O'Gara taken off after 44 minutes but from BBC looks like he played quite well. Is that an indication he will start? I'm not Rog's biggest fan but think he has been best outhalf on tour and probably deserves his place. Seems O'Callaghan also had decent game and Earls scored the try. Have seen a few negative comments about Fitzgerald however, which probably means that if Lee Byrne is fit, Kearney will get the nod on the wing.
The BBC opinion is quite the opposite
QuoteChances were at a premium at Newlands because of the heavy rain and sodden pitch and few of the Lions were able to stake a claim for inclusion in the second Test.
Luke Fitzgerald was a notable exception, proving sharp in attack and solid in defence.
Yeah the word is that Byrne won't make it which means Kearney at FB and I think Fitzgerald will get the nod at wing. Stuart Barnes seems to have a bit of a hard on for Williams but I don't think Williams is as sharp as Fitzgerald at the minute.
There will be a completely different front row with probably all 3 Welsh lads to start as well as probably Simon Shaw or DOC at lock, I would favour Shaw. I think there has to be a change in the back row with Willams getting in there somehow. I think he's far too good/inspirational a player to be leaving on the bench for a big game like this. It will be interesting to see the selection!
Can't see ROG taking Jones' place at the minute actually I think Hook offers you more from the bench which would see ROG relegated completely. All my opinion though and not knowing a hell of a lot about Rugby it can be taken with a pinch of salt. I think we have a great chance this weekend again. Is it true that S.A. only worked a maximum of 4 phases in the whole of the First Test? That's some statistic!
glad to hear that, was just the comments on the 606 board along with the text updates. I'm sure I probably suffer from a bit of bias myself but there isn't too much like the Lions for bringing out the bias in those across the water
Quote from: johnneycool on June 22, 2009, 02:11:44 PM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on June 21, 2009, 10:22:25 PM
Just watching the Churchill Cup Final - any chance they'll call up Neil Best for the second test!! :o
Is Best back after his gouging, always rated him for his abrasive approach?
He got banned at the start of October for 18 weeks. He was back in time some of the Ireland A in Feb / March but played a game instead for Northampton in the league.
ROG missed a sitter of a kick in the early stages, but played well after that. The early substitution was pre-planned, and O'Gara has at least secured his place on the bench ahead of Hook. But not sure he did enough to get ahead of Jones.
Never been a big fan of O'Callaghan, don't think I'd have him in the Ireland side (Cullen), but I think he's played well on this tour and again played well today. As did Shaw. I'd pick DOC on Saturday - Shaw gives away too many pens for my liking.
Very difficult for the backs, conditions were awful. Earls was probably the pick of them, but he's not a contender for Saturday. Very little to choose between Luke and Shane. If Byrne is fit I'd play him at 11 and Kearney at 15 (Kearney the steadier at full back, Byrne the better finisher). By the sounds of things though Byrne won't be fit, so 11 is up for grabs. I really hope they don't give Monye another chance. Interesting hearing both Greenwood and Evans saying Monye deserves to be dropped after Wallace said he would give him another go.
Moyne decision making is terrible, possible impact sub but I certainly wouldn't start him in the next test.
Quote from: Roger on June 23, 2009, 09:27:27 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on June 22, 2009, 02:11:44 PM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on June 21, 2009, 10:22:25 PM
Just watching the Churchill Cup Final - any chance they'll call up Neil Best for the second test!! :o
Is Best back after his gouging, always rated him for his abrasive approach?
He got banned at the start of October for 18 weeks. He was back in time some of the Ireland A in Feb / March but played a game instead for Northampton in the league.
I watched the Churchill cup - very interesting. The centre Mcfadden and the full back Jones look like they are very nearly ready for proper caps (both should be certain starters for their provinces next year - hopefully their paths wont be blocked. I've seen nothing really of these 2 before but were standouts in this tournament, expecially against England who had some bis name players on show. I hope Devon Toner pushes on and develops - it would be a shame to have a man of that size go to waste (he's even bigger than Bob Casey!).
Special praise also has to go to Neil Best - back to his bone crushing best. On form he's like Rocky Elsom minus the ball skills
The longer the tour has gone on the less interested I've been in the games. Last night's game was terrible - I know conditions were bad but the Lions lads knew it was their last game and they looked like they wanted to be back home. Think the Boks will hammer them on Saturday. Does anyone still think that in the professional age the tours are justified? I 'm of the opinion that they are just corporate money making machines and don't really serve any purpose.
Quote from: Declan on June 24, 2009, 07:45:13 AM
The longer the tour has gone on the less interested I've been in the games. Last night's game was terrible - I know conditions were bad but the Lions lads knew it was their last game and they looked like they wanted to be back home. Think the Boks will hammer them on Saturday. Does anyone still think that in the professional age the tours are justified? I 'm of the opinion that they are just corporate money making machines and don't really serve any purpose.
Did they ever serve a purpose?
I think in the old shamateur days I could see some justification as a "reward" for the Lions but now I can't see any reason for them at all.
If the Lions pick their team correctly there's no way they should be hammered. This might be biased but O'Gara should start at out-half. He has earned his place and if he played the last day he wouldn't have missed the kicks Jones missed. Of course they'll target him but the lad has been targetted in every game he has played in his life. He will never wear a Lions shirt again and I think he'd produce a great display. He has a track record for doing the business when the chips are down.
Kearney deserves his place regardless of whether Byrne is fit. If Byrne is fit he would be in the mix for 11. Monye shouldn't tog out again after the first test. Fitzgerald and Shane Williams haven't done enough but if Byrne is out one will play. Agree that DOC or Shaw need to come in to second row and Martin Williams in at 7, even if it means Wallace dropping to the bench. Front row needs major surgery. Mears and Vickery way off it. The two best hookers available are not there. Options are limited so I'd agree to going with the all Welsh front row, at least they're used to playing together. Hayes has to come into the equation though for his work in the lineout.
If they get hammered in this match they should retire the Lions as a concept. Its a bit of a joke the cream of 4 nations getting hockeyed on successive tours.
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 24, 2009, 11:59:16 AM
If the Lions pick their team correctly there's no way they should be hammered. This might be biased but O'Gara should start at out-half. He has earned his place and if he played the last day he wouldn't have missed the kicks Jones missed. Of course they'll target him but the lad has been targetted in every game he has played in his life. He will never wear a Lions shirt again and I think he'd produce a great display. He has a track record for doing the business when the chips are down.
Kearney deserves his place regardless of whether Byrne is fit. If Byrne is fit he would be in the mix for 11. Monye shouldn't tog out again after the first test. Fitzgerald and Shane Williams haven't done enough but if Byrne is out one will play. Agree that DOC or Shaw need to come in to second row and Martin Williams in at 7, even if it means Wallace dropping to the bench. Front row needs major surgery. Mears and Vickery way off it. The two best hookers available are not there. Options are limited so I'd agree to going with the all Welsh front row, at least they're used to playing together. Hayes has to come into the equation though for his work in the lineout.
If they get hammered in this match they should retire the Lions as a concept. Its a bit of a joke the cream of 4 nations getting hockeyed on successive tours.
Don't agree, they are playing the best team in the world in the home turf and the current WC champions, its not as easy as some people make out especially considering it's like an all-star team which generally in sports find it hard to gel like a proper team like SA or NZ.
QuoteThe longer the tour has gone on the less interested I've been in the games. Last night's game was terrible - I know conditions were bad but the Lions lads knew it was their last game and they looked like they wanted to be back home. Think the Boks will hammer them on Saturday. Does anyone still think that in the professional age the tours are justified? I 'm of the opinion that they are just corporate money making machines and don't really serve any purpose.
I'd agree with that which is even though i tend to contribute a lot to the rugby threads I just can't get excited anymore by the Lions and the Sky Hyperbole.
Quote from: DennistheMenace on June 24, 2009, 12:06:10 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 24, 2009, 11:59:16 AM
If the Lions pick their team correctly there's no way they should be hammered. This might be biased but O'Gara should start at out-half. He has earned his place and if he played the last day he wouldn't have missed the kicks Jones missed. Of course they'll target him but the lad has been targetted in every game he has played in his life. He will never wear a Lions shirt again and I think he'd produce a great display. He has a track record for doing the business when the chips are down.
Kearney deserves his place regardless of whether Byrne is fit. If Byrne is fit he would be in the mix for 11. Monye shouldn't tog out again after the first test. Fitzgerald and Shane Williams haven't done enough but if Byrne is out one will play. Agree that DOC or Shaw need to come in to second row and Martin Williams in at 7, even if it means Wallace dropping to the bench. Front row needs major surgery. Mears and Vickery way off it. The two best hookers available are not there. Options are limited so I'd agree to going with the all Welsh front row, at least they're used to playing together. Hayes has to come into the equation though for his work in the lineout.
If they get hammered in this match they should retire the Lions as a concept. Its a bit of a joke the cream of 4 nations getting hockeyed on successive tours.
Don't agree, they are playing the best team in the world in the home turf and the current WC champions, its not as easy as some people make out especially considering it's like an all-star team which generally in sports find it hard to gel like a proper team like SA or NZ.
We'll have to agree to disagree. While an international team might be better acquainted with each other they don't exactly play together week in, week out either. On top of that the Lions have been together for a long time now so the comparison with an all-star team is not accurate. The very least the Lions should be is competitive, not getting brushed aside with ease.
Ah now they were hardly brushed aside with ease seanie. Yes they struggled in the first half but they took S.A. to the cleaners 2nd half and another 5 minutes of that game would have seen a Lions victory.
This Test on Saturday I think will not be a tale of 2 halves but will be a lot more even than last week. Lions will scrummage better and compete more in the lineout while the S.A. defence will not concede as many line breaks as it did last weekend. I'm actually excited about this one as it really could go either way.
As for retiring it as a concept I don't really agree with it. The Lions has been going for the best part of a century and the tradition and honour that goes with something like that has been built up over a lot of time. It's not like the Compromised Rules which was an experiment really and can be disbanded fairly easily. Along with the tradition the Lions is very high profile and the hype machine helps to pull youngsters into the game. Not to mention the numerous charity and community events that go with a Lions tour that can have quite an effect.
I for one enjoy it and if players are happy enough to keep wanting to play for the Lions and enjoy these tours then more power to them. I hope they win on Sunday as well!
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 24, 2009, 01:33:54 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on June 24, 2009, 12:06:10 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 24, 2009, 11:59:16 AM
If the Lions pick their team correctly there's no way they should be hammered. This might be biased but O'Gara should start at out-half. He has earned his place and if he played the last day he wouldn't have missed the kicks Jones missed. Of course they'll target him but the lad has been targetted in every game he has played in his life. He will never wear a Lions shirt again and I think he'd produce a great display. He has a track record for doing the business when the chips are down.
Kearney deserves his place regardless of whether Byrne is fit. If Byrne is fit he would be in the mix for 11. Monye shouldn't tog out again after the first test. Fitzgerald and Shane Williams haven't done enough but if Byrne is out one will play. Agree that DOC or Shaw need to come in to second row and Martin Williams in at 7, even if it means Wallace dropping to the bench. Front row needs major surgery. Mears and Vickery way off it. The two best hookers available are not there. Options are limited so I'd agree to going with the all Welsh front row, at least they're used to playing together. Hayes has to come into the equation though for his work in the lineout.
If they get hammered in this match they should retire the Lions as a concept. Its a bit of a joke the cream of 4 nations getting hockeyed on successive tours.
Don't agree, they are playing the best team in the world in the home turf and the current WC champions, its not as easy as some people make out especially considering it's like an all-star team which generally in sports find it hard to gel like a proper team like SA or NZ.
We'll have to agree to disagree. While an international team might be better acquainted with each other they don't exactly play together week in, week out either. On top of that the Lions have been together for a long time now so the comparison with an all-star team is not accurate. The very least the Lions should be is competitive, not getting brushed aside with ease.
I think the international teams train together quite a during the 6 nations they are in campand during the November international and summer tours as well as training in the off season. They are quite like a club team.
Lions team for the 2nd test
15. Rob Kearney (Leinster / Ireland)
14. Tommy Bowe (Ospreys / Ireland)
13. Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster / Ireland)
12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues / Wales)
11. Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster / Ireland)
10. Stephen Jones (Scarlets / Wales)
9. Mike Phillips (Ospreys / Wales)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster / Ireland)
7. David Wallace (Munster / Ireland)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers / England)
5. Paul O'Connell (Munster / Ireland) Captain
4. Simon Shaw (London Wasps / England)
3. Adam Jones (Ospreys / Wales)
2. Matthew Rees (Scarlets / Wales)
1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
Replacements
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh / Scotland)
17. Andrew Sheridan (Sale Sharks /England)
18. Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys / Wales)
19. Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
20. Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers/England)
21. Ronan O'Gara (Munster/Ireland)
22. Shane Williams (Ospreys / Wales)
Vickery and Moyne got the chop from the squad completely.
Good to see Fitzgerald get the nod, strong pack.
good pack but o callaghan is unlucky to get dropped. he had a solid game on tuesday.
Lee Mears also out of the 22.
Can't have too many complaints with that team. Good to see that the selection is based on form rather than reputations.
Hard to believe that there'll be an all Welsh front row lining out in one of the tests though. If you'd have compared the four front rows during the 6N, you'd probably say that the Welsh three were the weakest. Jenkins is a fine prop and in fairness to both Rees and Adam Jones, they both did well when introduced last week.
Not too far off what I thought it should be and a much better looking team than last week. Hopefully the horse hasn't bolted. Have 7 Irish men ever started a Lions test before?
Delighted for Fitzgerald. Hope he does himself justice.
Would be 9 Irish starting if Ferris and Flannery were fit!
Read somewhere that Shaw has never started a test match for the Lions but has been on tour since 97, it must be some feeling for him for him to finally get his Chance. I think he is a good call and hopefully will help shore up the scrum. Id be very worried about Rees at hooker, he might be a bigger and bulkier but he will need to be at the very top of his game for the lineout to achieve any sort of parity.
Hopefully we will get a more competitive 1st half to the last day.
Lads, I just don't get it.... How can 4 countries beating beating 1 country in any sport be recognised as a significant achievement?
Stop beating yourself up about it. If your interested look it up.
i thought monye did well last week and would have retained him at least on the bench. Williams hasn't impressed me at all this tour.
I also think that Hook on the bench would give more options than O'Gara.
Quote from: Hound on June 25, 2009, 01:52:08 PM
Delighted for Fitzgerald. Hope he does himself justice.
Would be 9 Irish starting if Ferris and Flannery were fit!
Glad for Fitzgerald as well . I was reading an article a few weeks ago (some one might have posted it on this thread ) how when he was 16 he was woking with Enda Mc Nulty ( one of the armagh twins the sports phycologist) he had to write down what he hoped to achieve in 5 years and he had achieved nearly the lot now that he has been picked for this test.
What else could he have hoped to acheive professionally that he hasnt? World cup? All Ireland?
He has had some career so far!!
Just the world cup Ludermor
World Cup!!
f**k me he was aiming high.
When i was 16 the height of my ambition was to sup from the hairy cup.
I actually feel pretty good about saturday. I think the Lions might reverse the result of last week.
Quote from: ludermor on June 25, 2009, 05:44:18 PM
World Cup!!
f**k me he was aiming high.
When i was 16 the height of my ambition was to sup from the hairy cup.
:D :D :D lmao Ludermor , i'm sure you achieved your ambition ;)
Quote from: ludermor on June 25, 2009, 05:44:18 PM
World Cup!!
f**k me he was aiming high.
When i was 16 the height of my ambition was to sup from the hairy cup.
And it was my misfortune to be supping from a cup of tea at the moment i read that.
Tea everywhere :D
For all you Lions Fans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k7D9h1XqIY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k7D9h1XqIY&feature=related)
Was reading Pat Dolans piece in the Star at lunch time, he had a wee piece about how the Irish are obssessed with the "British Lions" and he can't understand it. He said that the only bit of green is on the socks and its a token jesture by the British!
What a plonker! Never mentioned the 7 current starters which would suggest a lot of Irish interest or the fact that the they are called the British and Irish Lions. Or the history of the team and the place Irish players have in that history.
No, in pats eyes it should be all based on the colour scheme of the jersey ::)
Is the "irish" bit in the title not a relatively new addition?
Regardless of the name, the Irish have been as much a part of the Lions as the English, Scots and Welsh since it all started back 100 years ago.
Quote from: Aghdavoyle on June 26, 2009, 03:30:29 PM
Is the "irish" bit in the title not a relatively new addition?
It was founded as a the British Isles team and the name modified in the 50s to "British Lions" due to common parlance and description given to the team because of the logo on the shirt. In 2001 the name changed to "British and Irish Lions" to reflect the political /national identity/sensitivities of the constituent parts of the team. There's nothing Political about the team and people involved in rugby, whether they see themselves as British or Irish or both, are natuarlly proud of their own region's representation but have a collective rugby identity and bond in this superb touring concept. British and Irish players see this as the pinnacle of their career. Ireland down through the years have punched above their weight when providing both players and captains for the team.
Quote from: the Deel Rover on June 25, 2009, 05:24:57 PM
Quote from: Hound on June 25, 2009, 01:52:08 PM
Delighted for Fitzgerald. Hope he does himself justice.
Would be 9 Irish starting if Ferris and Flannery were fit!
Glad for Fitzgerald as well . I was reading an article a few weeks ago (some one might have posted it on this thread ) how when he was 16 he was woking with Enda Mc Nulty ( one of the armagh twins the sports phycologist) he had to write down what he hoped to achieve in 5 years and he had achieved nearly the lot now that he has been picked for this test.
puck ye deel rover, looked through 30something pages for thon article and its not there. you havent got a link to it do you?
In Stephen Jones' latest article he claimed the dream Lions back three was Williams-Byrne-Moyne, and it's a shame the Springboks won't get to see the best of the Lions attack now that they're all out of favour/injured! What other reaction did we expect I suppose after an Irish back three was selected, but this fella never fails to amaze me!
http://sportsdesi1.blogspot.com/
Incase anyone wants to watch it.
Starting now
Quote from: tyrone exile on June 27, 2009, 02:00:19 PM
http://sportsdesi1.blogspot.com/
Incase anyone wants to watch it.
Starting now
Thanks Lad - was just about to ask did anybody know of any streams!
Pure dirt from Burger there.
Yellow card inside 30 seconds.
GO ON BOD GET STUCK IN!!
Lion's are on fire here.
Irish boys playing well
Great try from Kearney.
Some start from the Lions.
Kearney try 8-0 with conversion to come!
Super try
great start. Hope it keeps up like this. Great start from the Irish back 3! Kearney playin a blinder.
Only listening on radio here so didn't see the Berger incident but is gouging not supposed to be a red card offence?
that was too easy
Rob Kearney having a great game.
Really enjoying this game it has everything and the Lions are playing a blinder all over. Kearney having the game of his life!
Stuart Barnes is creaming himself about Kearney ( or Carney as the english say ). He said he owns the air. Superb under the high ball. The Irish lads are all justifying their selection, hope that journalist w**ker is cringing
PS Good luck tomorrow exile, i will be thinking of you when im headbanging at Puncestown
Cheers lad. Enjoy ACDC i'd say it'll be awesome!
two possibly vital missed pens from south africa
19-8
Some hit from O'Driscoll there
BOD is the definitely the leader out there, illegal challenge but inspirational
South Africa have the upper hand now. O'Driscoll off now as well.
roberts off as well
22-18, cracking game
Good game O Driscoll seems to have come out of that tackle for the worst, seems badly concussed !
Quote from: Carmen Stateside on June 27, 2009, 03:39:40 PM
Good game O Driscoll seems to have come out of that tackle for the worst, seems badly concussed !
How do you reckon that ? The other guy had to be taken off via cart.
25-22 to south africa....6 mins left
Shot of him on sideline and he looks like hes lost
O gara cant be feeling good either!
Last 5... squeaky bum time!!!
Jones kicking has been great!
Some kick from Jones, not often you hear the kicker being booed when taking a kick at goal.
25-25
Crap.
Big kick now ..............
f**k
wow
brutal by o'gara
Good job they got O Gara on :D
cracking game.disappointing finish
O'Gara had a Vickery.
O'Gara will be the scape goat, missed tackle, silly penalty, the English media will have their sacrificial lamb but the Lions ran out of steam in the last 20 and with the loss of 2 props and 2 centres they just ran out of players..
O'Gara will be crucified in the rugby media for this.
Was daft mind.
Yeah but they also slammed Vickery after last week and rightly side. Yes the injuries were probably the main reason the match was lost but O'Gara is supposed to be an experienced Lions player and made mistakes in the last 10 minutes that coaches would be shouting at a 12 year old for making.
Disappointing but in fairness the Lions played some treat stuff and fought right to the end to make it a fantastic Test match. All the Irish lads acquitted themselves well (ROG being the exception). Thoroughly enjoyed the 2 games and a damn sight better show than 4 years ago. Fair play lads hard luck.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on June 27, 2009, 03:56:28 PM
O'Gara will be the scape goat, missed tackle, silly penalty, the English media will have their sacrificial lamb but the Lions ran out of steam in the last 20 and with the loss of 2 props and 2 centres they just ran out of players..
Indeed the team ran out of steam but you couldn't blame anyone for criticising O'Gara's contribution.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on June 27, 2009, 03:56:28 PM
O'Gara will be the scape goat, missed tackle, silly penalty, the English media will have their sacrificial lamb but the Lions ran out of steam in the last 20 and with the loss of 2 props and 2 centres they just ran out of players..
i would say the last 40, they never really pushed or tried to push home their advantage in the second half at all, altitiude and injuries would be a factor of course, but i thought they were happy to sit back and defend.
As for O'Gara, feel sorry for him, but I wouldn't have had him on the bench (or Williams for that matter).
Do you think if we'd got a decent view would we have seen whether or not the try was legit? An overhead would have been perfect.
Not defending O'Gara but just trying to look at the bigger picture but he's a terrible defender and I find it ironic after his comments regarding Geordie Murphy's tackling that he missed that one, he's not called O'Turnstyles for no reason.
The Touch Judge bottled the SA try, he seemed fairly convinced the SA player was in touch and wanted confirmation, there was no evidence to indicate he was so the TV official couldn't call it. It was the same Bryn Lawerence that screwed the Lions last week.
Dinny I've watched in freezeframe 6 times. It was a try. Its definitely Brussow's foot in touch.
Jesus I'm welling up here did anyone see the interview with Simon Shaw? He's been on tours since 1997 and this was his first start and I thought he was immense. He said he'd rather be playing crap and taken off at half time and than lose and be MOTM.
If anyone ever doubted the importance of the Lions to the players they should have a look at that interview. It meant everything to that man!!!
QuoteDinny I've watched in freezeframe 6 times. It was a try. Its definitely Brussow's foot in touch.
I'm not saying it wasn't but I get the impression the TJ thought it was and he just bottled it, from all the TV angles we saw I agree it looked good.
A new Zealand touch judge would have loved to call that out as he tried to do. He'd have been publicly hung had he disallowed it.
Not mad into the Lions but that was a great game. Really enjoyed it. Think the altitude caught up with them in the 2nd half. They had them on the rack but let them back in. Injuries didn't help either. Ultimately not having Hook to cover the centre cost them the game. That lies with the management.
Agree with all that Indiana but don't forget the same touch judge saw Burger's gouging and recommended a yellow :o
Burger will probably get 12 weeks
Great game of rugby mind, now out of my sick bed off to Offaly hopefully for a Lilywhite double...
Quote from: INDIANA on June 27, 2009, 04:35:16 PM
A new Zealand touch judge would have loved to call that out as he tried to do. He'd have been publicly hung had he disallowed it.
Not mad into the Lions but that was a great game. Really enjoyed it. Think the altitude caught up with them in the 2nd half. They had them on the rack but let them back in. Injuries didn't help either. Ultimately not having Hook to cover the centre cost them the game. That lies with the management.
Exactly, there was no cover for the centres on the bench at all. The uncontested scrums was a bad thing for the Lions as well because they had been doing well there. As soon as Roberts and BOD came off it you could see that try coming. Some great performances all the same from Shaw, Kearney, Phillips, Jones while the rest gave 100% and more. 16-8 at half time wasn't a big enough lead for all the possession they had. Really disappointed and just hope that they can get the win next Saturday.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 27, 2009, 04:18:52 PM
Dinny I've watched in freezeframe 6 times. It was a try. Its definitely Brussow's foot in touch.
yeah, but we can't actually see fourie's feet at all - a better angle would have put it beyond doubt - and I'm surprised there isn't one.
I'm a strong defender of ROG as a player, and I have great time for him after what he has done for Munster, and Ireland, but today I felt he was completely focussed in the wrong direction, and was not playing for the team. I think he was playing for ROG.
From the moment he came on, I thought he looked like a lad who was determined to make an impression because obviously Jones had been doing fairly well, and ROG could see his chances of playing as the Test starter disappearing down the swanney.
I couldn't believe when he dandered over to that penalty in front of the posts, and also to the one on the sideline. Jones had been metronomic all day, and there should have been no doubt that it was Jones' duty to kick the penalties. I'm relieved that O'Connell didn't do anything stupid there.
Finally, the up and under seemed again to be a case of 'I'm going to do something here'. It wasn't on, and it wasn't well executed. The Lions were not set up for it (he was the only chaser) and he should have kicked down the field, ideally for touch. It looked like a selfish attempt to be the hero.
I like ROG, a lot, and I know he'll do more good things for the teams I really care about, but I think you have to call a spade a spade here. That was not good from him, and he got what he deserved at the end of it, even if the other Lions suffered because of it, unfortunately.
Quote from: Bogball XV on June 27, 2009, 05:04:26 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on June 27, 2009, 04:18:52 PM
Dinny I've watched in freezeframe 6 times. It was a try. Its definitely Brussow's foot in touch.
yeah, but we can't actually see fourie's feet at all - a better angle would have put it beyond doubt - and I'm surprised there isn't one.
You can- he's wearing silver boots and they aren't hitting the whitewash.
I would agree with AZ there. Maybe there was a sense of trying to make up for the missed tackle that led to the try and he felt that he had to do something extra special. He is going to get savaged by the media I would expect but I don't think thats entirely deserved. It shouldn't have got to the stage where a penalty at the death was going to beat the Lions today. They seemed to try and close the game down for the first 20 mins of the second half and hope to have a final 20 mins like last week.
There was also a massive error from Jones when he missed the kick to touch and it led to a score for South Africa. Can't remember whether it was the try or a penalty but to me it was just as big a mistake as O'Garas.
Aye, but Jones made a mistake trying to do the right thing. O'Gara made his (second) mistake trying to do the wrong thing. As a Munster fan, and an Ireland fan, I hope he doesn't let it get to him too much (except maybe as a lesson). He's a resiliant lad though, so I'm sure he'll bounce back.
Quote from: tyroneboi on June 27, 2009, 05:27:27 PM
I would agree with AZ there. Maybe there was a sense of trying to make up for the missed tackle that led to the try and he felt that he had to do something extra special. He is going to get savaged by the media I would expect but I don't think thats entirely deserved. It shouldn't have got to the stage where a penalty at the death was going to beat the Lions today. They seemed to try and close the game down for the first 20 mins of the second half and hope to have a final 20 mins like last week.
There was also a massive error from Jones when he missed the kick to touch and it led to a score for South Africa. Can't remember whether it was the try or a penalty but to me it was just as big a mistake as O'Garas.
I agree completely with that. But Ronan did have a pop at Geordan Murphy for missing a tackle once - always best to keep your mouth shut.
He's just never been a great tackler. If you rerun the last 15 mins- Spies actually gets a ball and goes looking for him and absolutely smashes him. Rog never recovered from that. Similar to the Luke McAllsiter incident 3 years ago the tackle on Fourie was technique, he goes too high again on a stronger man and gets smashed.
The garryowen was just brain fade.
Ultimately you have to hand it to the Boks to come back from 11 points down - is the mark of a great side. Rather than blaming indivdiuals - the boks deserve all the credit.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2009, 05:31:24 PM
Aye, but Jones made a mistake trying to do the right thing. O'Gara made his (second) mistake trying to do the wrong thing. As a Munster fan, and an Ireland fan, I hope he doesn't let it get to him too much (except maybe as a lesson). He's a resiliant lad though, so I'm sure he'll bounce back.
I know what you mean saying Jones was trying to the right thing but at the level they are playing at, a fly half missing a kick to touch from a penalty is pretty bad. O'Gara is the type of fella that seems to recover well from setbacks and will comeback stronger for Munster and Ireland next season. Hasn't had the best of times in a Lions shirt anyway from the time that thug McRae punched the head of him in Australia to todays mistakes.
There was nothing wrong with the garowen lads it was his braindead way of clattering in to the South African player that was the problem. He was trying to win the game and could have if he had dealt with the situation propeerly, ie tackle the South African the instant he hit the ground and then try and tuen the ball over and possibly win a penalty for the South African holding on.
Rog only enters a rugby field to be outhalf and kick the goals, he doesn't have the physical ability to be anything else. If they did not switch Stephen Jones to inside centre today then they made a big mistake.
The best bit of the game was O'Driscoll taking out the South African prop.
South Africa v British and Irish Lions: player ratings - The Telegraph
British and Irish Lions:
Rob Kearney: Scored a try, caught all the bombs that came his way and punted beautifully. Almost perfect. 9
Tommy Bowe: Kept his width to fix Steyn for Kearney to score Lions first try. Not many chances to shine himself. 6
Brian O'Driscoll: Well up for it. Had an early tussle with Matfield and played like a flanker forcing turnovers. Eventually injured. 8
Jamie Roberts: Not as many line breaks but still carried bodies over the advantage line. Like O'Driscoll, battered at end. 8
Luke Fitzgerald: Victim of disgraceful eye gouge by Burger. Always threatening and did well to thwart Pietersen in first half. 7
Stephen Jones: Potted a snappy drop goal to reward Lions pressure and squeezed over a penalty which nearly earned Lions the draw. 6
Mike Phillips: Important runs through the middle of the rucks and mauls to keep Bok defence honest. Pass not that slick. 7
Gethin Jenkins: Failed to offload when Lions looked certain to score. Part of a massive scrummaging effort. Clashed heads with Habana. 6
Matthew Rees: Just about held his lineout throwing together. Big influence in scrum and loose play. 7
Adam Jones: Got one over on the beast which was a big psychological lift for Lions. Another Lion who was bashed up. 7
Simon Shaw: Fabulous match. Annoyed Botha, smashed rucks and carried ball into heart of Bok defence. At 35, he even kept going to the end. 8
Paul O'Connell: Didn't carry ball that well but prominent in early lineouts and forced turnovers late on. Leadership much improved too. 7
Tom Croft: Not as conspicuous as first Test but still keen to mix it with the big boys. Has had a good tour. 6
David Wallace: Much better. Made a nuisance of himself at the breakdown and outplayed Burger. 7
Jamie Heaslip: More visible. A couple of punching runs in the first half were excellent. Faded slightly late on. 6
Replacements: O'Gara gave away the final penalty which cost Lions the match but the Lions were out on their feet at that stage. Andrew Sheridan pick of replacements. Actually got cross. 7
South Africa:
Frans Steyn: Another mixed bag from a multi-talented player but when he's good he is very good, witness that superb penalty on half-time. Looks like a world class centre playing full-back. 7
JP Pietersen: Looked much livelier than last week and showed real gas to take his first half try. Much more involved and always needed watching by the Lions hard pressed defence. 7
Adi Jacobs: Still doesn't look a world beater but a much tidier performance than last week. Midfield defence on Brian O'Driscoll and Jamie Roberts was much tighter. 6
Jean de Villiers: Was just beginning to show his class when departed injured. Worked hard when required to repulse the Lions midfield. 6
Bryan Habana: Much more like it after a quiet weekend in Durban. Devastating runner who was looking for work from the off and took his try like the thoroughbred he is. 8
Ruan Pienaar: Has great qualities but not convincing and looked vulnerable when the Lions cranked up the pressure inthe first half. 6
Fourie du Preez: Has found the excellent Mike Phillips a real handful in this series and has not been at his world class best. Some nice touches to keep the Boks ticking over but nothing sensational. 6
Tendai Mtawarira: A very tough day at the office after Durban's heroics and he wouldn't have been devastated when injuries to Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins resulted in uncontested scrums. 5
Bismark du Plessis: Struggled like the beast and was making little impact in the scrum although his line-out throwing remained consistent and underpinned the Boks line-out excellence. 5
John Smit (capt): HIs leadership was as good as ever but nowhere near as effective at scrum-time and gave a few penalties away. By his own standards a middling game. 6
Bakkies Botha: Always a considerable line-out presence and ferocious in the contact area. Decided to bait Andew Sheridan and to his surprise got as good as he gave. 7
Victor Matfield: Supreme in the line-out, as ever, and a more than useful operator in the loose but would have wanted to produce something bigger and better in front of his own Blue Bulls fans. 7
Schalk Burger: Should have been sent off for gouging after 41 seconds. The referee has no discretion in the matter, it has to be red. Yellow was totally the wrong call. Burger faces a long ban, Berdos has a ton of explaining to do if he is to get another big game anytime soon. 0
Juan Smith: Has had to play amuch tighter game than he is used to. Never lets the Boks down but not as influential as he would have hoped. 6
Pierre Spies: Has not lived up to the hype. Another quiet game devodi of his athletic 50 yard dashes. Put one important tackle in on BOD in the first half but did little else of significance. 5
Replacements: The bench copped all the flak last week but they all played a magnificent hand this week, not least the extremely talented Jaque Fourie, who did brilliantly to take his try even if 20,000 Lions fans will tell you his torso was on the touchline, and Morne Steyn with his magnifcent 53m match winning kick. 10
Great performance by the Lions all the same.
With 7 Irish players on board they nearly earned the first Lions test win since 2001.
Throw in Ferris and Flannery and you'd have the guts of Irish team capable of taking on the Springboks in their own backyard.
They ran out of players in the end.
O'Gara will take the heat for his brain stagger, but a few other mistakes like bad line outs also cost them.
I'm not sure how well he'll recover though. He has gone into a slump since 2007 and is pushing on.
I think its time to start planning for the 2011 World Cup without him.
Who do you get to replace O'Gara though? Sexton had a good finish to the Heineken cup, but what we really need is a couple of options like we had in the O'Gara - Humphreys era.
Cracking game, sickening end. The last test would have been just sensational if it wasn't a dead rubber. Although injuries may mean there's a shadow team out.
The Lions were absolutely superb in the first half, and Kearney was magnificent, but in the second they just couldnt get on the front foot.
People talking, especially in the media, about Shaw being great. Before the game I thought his selection was an error, because his weaknesses (mainly his stupidity) outweigh his strenghts. So I kept a close eye on him and I'm going to go completely against the grain and say he cost Lions the game as much as O'Gara. Yes, he was superb in the loose and better than expected in the lineout but Shaw gave away 5 penalties in the match, everyone of them needless, 4 of which came in the first half, without which its likely the Lions would have been out of sight at half time.
I believe Fourie was in touch for the try, but the cameras didnt show it either way. The last picture you can see is he is clearly in field but Philips clatters him from the side and you see Fourie's feet sliding towards the sideline and then the picture of his feet is blocked from all angles just as he touches down. I think its lkely his feet touched the line before he got the ball down but it was a 50/50 call.
Kearney was some loss to Cooley Kickhams and Louth ....he is some bit of stuff.
Pity ROG didnt play a bit of GAA - might have learned how to attack ball in the air. He has got off a bit lighter in press than expected today. The focus is correctly on ref bottling the decision in first minute.
Will BOD be around for next world cup - he cant be replaced.
When Kearney made the breakthrough with Leinster, I was an instant fan, but I was also sick that the Dubs had lost what undoubtedly would have been a top drawer GAA player if he gave primary focus to gaelic football. Relieved when I was told he wasn't a Dub!
Cheika will probably stick him on the wing and play Nacewa there.
I disagree on the front foot thing Hound. They had plenty of ball but they keep kicking it away in the second half. Didn't have the conviction to see it home.
Only watched a recording of the match this morning after travelling to both Kildare matches yesterday.
It was some contest and the Lions can be truly proud of their efforts. Anyone who questioned the Lions concept and how much the players believe in it got an emphatic answer. It was great to see the Irish players leading the charge. I thought Wallace, O'Driscoll and Kearney in particular, were superb.
The Springboks were fortunate that the Lions were cursed with injuries. Once both the centres had to be replaced the whole thing fell apart. Not surprising really given the way both Roberts and O'Driscoll have played throughout the tour. The move to uncontested scrums was also a blow because if anything, the Lions had the upper hand in the scrum. Fair play to Rees and Jones - must admit I didn't think they'd be up to it. The decision to bring on Wyn-Jones when Adam Jones went off was a big mistake. Surely Martyn Williams was made for that game and Wyn-Jones could have replaced Shaw who was fecked in the last ten minutes.
Felt a degree of sympathy for O'Gara. He screwed up big time but the Lions were all out on their feet at that stage. The only explanation I could offer for the penalty he gave away was that he shipped two huge belts in the space of a minute and that he was possibly slightly concussed??
Spot on AZ re O'Gara. Burger should have gotten red never mind yellow and 8 weeks is a joke. Lions should have put more points on the board in the first half. Kearney was outstanding I thought but they should just head home now and forget about the third match - will they give the other lads a chance now I wonder to play?
Quote from: Capt Pat on June 28, 2009, 01:00:04 AM
Who do you get to replace O'Gara though? Sexton had a good finish to the Heineken cup, but what we really need is a couple of options like we had in the O'Gara - Humphreys era.
At least there is 2 years to try and get Sexton up and running for the World Cup.
He looks a bit raw so far but at least he has potential to improve.
The same goes for the likes of Cian Healy.
Ireland should use the 6 nations to strategically build a team like the French do, which would mean trying out more players.
O Gara is a clown. A disaster waiting to happen. He hasnt the physical game to mix it at that level.
See O'Driscoll is on his way home as well
Interesting looking team for the final test:
15. Rob Kearney
14. Ugo Monye
13. Tommy Bowe
12. Riki Flutey
11. Shane Williams
10. Stephen Jones
9. Mike Phillips
8. Jamie Heaslip
7. Martyn Williams
6. Joe Worsley
5. Paul O'Connell (c)
4. Simon Shaw
3. Phil Vickery
2. Matthew Rees
1. Andrew Sheridan
Replacements:
16. Ross Ford
17. John Hayes
18. Alun-Wyn Jones
19. David Wallace
20. Tom Croft
21. Harry Ellis
22. James Hook
South Africa make 10 changes aswell.
Joke of a team. Not starting Hook? Starting Flutey and S Williams? Starting Vickery????? Was he not retired two weeks ago??
Agree, Hook should definitley be at 10, and I think Earls should at least be on the bench with Darcy ahead of Bowe. Is Luke gone home?
If I was Darcy I'd walk out..... obvious that McGeechan really doesn't want to play him.
Quote from: GBXII on July 02, 2009, 02:46:34 PM
Agree, Hook should definitley be at 10, and I think Earls should at least be on the bench with Darcy ahead of Bowe. Is Luke gone home?
Don't see why Jones should be dropped for Hook.
Quote from: Roger on July 02, 2009, 05:08:17 PM
Quote from: GBXII on July 02, 2009, 02:46:34 PM
Agree, Hook should definitley be at 10, and I think Earls should at least be on the bench with Darcy ahead of Bowe. Is Luke gone home?
Don't see why Jones should be dropped for Hook.
Yep, I'd have had Hook in the cente. Why Flutey is playing is beyond me. Is Fitzgerald injured or why is Monye back in the team?
surely Earls was a straight swap for BOD ? The whole shift must be to get Shane Williams on.
Quote from: thebandit on July 02, 2009, 04:57:21 PM
If I was Darcy I'd walk out..... obvious that McGeechan really doesn't want to play him.
D'Arcy walked out the last time which is why some people think he left is on the fringe.
What are the justice armbands the springboks are wearing for?
Quote from: kumquat on July 04, 2009, 02:46:09 PM
What are the justice armbands the springboks are wearing for?
Justice for Bakkies Botha apparently. Flutey playing very well both in defence and attack. Really hope they can finish the job off this week. Kearney having another stormer apart from that last kick for touch.
Great try by Monye. Ellis on? Why???? >:(
22-6 up and they put Ellis at scrum half and Phillips to inside centre. This messing around is not a good idea. Surely Hook should be on at inside centre.
Great win. Make you wonder what could have been. Woulda, coulda, shouda...
Heaslip, Phillips and O'Conneill were outstanding I thought. They deserved a test win for the way they played over the 3 tests.
in terms of points scored in the games they had the better points difference. They were close to winning it 3 nil. I think if Ferris had stayed fit they would have.
Quote from: Capt Pat on July 04, 2009, 04:10:49 PM
in terms of points scored in the games they had the better points difference. They were close to winning it 3 nil. I think if Ferris had stayed fit they would have.
No doubt Ferris was the biggest loss of the tour. Would have been made for that test last week. Can't wait for the DVD to come out now hopefully it will be much better than the tripe they released in 2005.
Bring on Australia 2013!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/8135211.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/8135211.stm)
Interesting piece from Martyn Williams here- Very fulsome in his praise of O'Connell
3 part documentary behind the scenes with this tour is on Sky Sports tomorrow night and Sunday. First 2 tomorrow night, concluding Sunday. Should be good.