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This is one take on it

Controversy Rages in NYC over Planned Mosque Near Ground Zero

18/05/2010
By Mohammed Al Shafey




London, Asharq Al-Awsat- The project to build a mosque and Islamic cultural center close to Ground Zero in New York City has raised a sense of hope in a city whose Muslim population want to move on from the terrible 9/11 attacks.

Construction is yet to begin at the site where the mosque and Islamic center are set to be located, which is the former Burlington Coat Factory in Lower Manhattan, which was closed down in 2001 after the landing gear from one of the planes hit the building. This building is located approximately 200 meters from the former site of the World Trade Center, where 3,000 people died in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. The mosque will be part of the Cordoba House project, which will include a 13-storey Muslim community center that will include a theatre, a swimming pool, and sport facilities. However, the announcement of this project caused mixed feelings among local residents and families of 9/11 victims.

For his part, Nihad Awad, the Executive Director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations [CAIR] told Asharq Al-Awsat on Monday that "there is controversy and there are parties that have a political agenda and want to intimidate the American people against the mosque project which has not yet begun [construction], and this includes Republican Congressman Peter King, and his opinion should not be considered because his ideas are extreme."

Awad added that "the Muslims should reassure the American people by disseminating correct information about Islam, which is a religion of peace and love." He also said that "there are supporters and businessmen who are overseeing the [mosque] project, and they are also concerned with putting forward a culture of dialogue."

Awad confirmed to Asharq Al-Awsat via telephone that "building this mosque is the solution not the problem, because Islam calls for rapprochement with other religions and...a culture of moderation."

Awad also told Asharq Al-Awsat that we must recognize that there is a fear of Islam in American society due to its lack of knowledge about Islam, and that any non-Muslim might share these fears because of what s/he sees in the media every day and the image that is portrayed of Islam and Muslims, which is an incorrect and offensive portrayal of Islam. Awad added that this will result in incorrect impressions being formed about Islam and Muslims, and that those who are unaware of true Islam are not to blame for this.

The project was put forward by the Cordoba Initiative and the American Society for Muslim Advancement to the New York Community Board which approved the plans. These two organizations are working to improve understanding of Islam and increase interfaith dialogue.

Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf, a New York Imam and head of the Cordoba Initiative told Asharq Al-Awsat that "there is no other project like this in the United States. It will be a centre for everybody and will not be limited to just Muslims."

According to Abdul Rauf, the construction of a mosque and a Muslim cultural center in the heart of Manhattan may contribute to achieving rapprochement between the Islamic world and the West. Abdul Rauf also said that he wants to "put forward the American-Islamic cultural identity which is built on tolerance and moderation."

Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf is the son of an Al-Azhar envoy, and he was born in Kuwait although he is of Egyptian origin, and lived in Kuwait, Malaysia, and England, before moving to the US in 1965. He has been the Imam of the Al-Farah Mosque in Manhattan for the past 27 years, and is known as a leader in the American Muslim community. He is the founder of both the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative, and he has written a number of books on Islam.

Imam Abdul Rauf, who also speaks Arabic fluently, told Asharq Al-Awsat that the Islamic centre will be financed through contributions from Muslims in the US, as well as by donations from Arab and Islamic countries. He also acknowledged that the location of the mosque, which will be able to hold over 2,000 worshippers, is the subject of much controversy and criticism from families of 9/11 victims. Reports indicate that a number of 9/11 victims families have objected to the proposed mosque. Evelyn Pettigano, who lost a sister in the attacks told the Associated Press, "I'm not prejudiced...it's too close to the area where our family members were murdered." While the mother of a fire fighter who died on September 11 said, "I think it's despicable, and I think it's atrocious that anyone would even consider allowing them to build a mosque near the World Trade Center."

However Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf responded to such criticism by saying that "the project will bring life to the abandoned streets of New York and change the way Americans view Muslims."


This is another

Supporters of the project say the planned multi-storey Islamic centre would transform both the drab lower Manhattan street and the way Americans have interacted with Muslims since nearly 3,000 people died in the attacks on September 11, 2001.

Boasting a mosque with sports facilities, a theatre and possibly day care, the centre would be open to all visitors to demonstrate that Muslims are part of their community, not some separate element.


But because of the mosques location, just around the corner from the gaping Ground Zero hole, the plan has upset some locals.

"The outrage continues," says website www.nomosquesatgroundzero.wordpress.com under a close-up of the collapsing Twin Towers.

The protest site says the centre will "cast a rude shadow over Ground Zero."

Others compared the idea to building a German cultural centre at Auschwitz.

"Spitting in the Face of Everyone Murdered on 9/11," writes Blitz, a self-described "anti-jihadist newspaper."

That level of anger is not uncommon among New Yorkers who blame Islam, rather than just Al-Qaeda or other militant groups, for 9/11 and the global confrontation with the United States.

"This is the wrong neighborhood to put the mosque in," Scott Rachelson, 59, said as he went to his office. Mr Rachelson, who works with people seeking compensation over 9/11 related damages, said his life changed forever the day that two hijacked airliners smashed into Manhattan.

"I was here. For me, and everyone else who was here, we have post-traumatic stress disorder," he said. "It feels like yesterday."

A woman living in the apartment building next to the proposed mosque said she couldn't accept the project.

"I'd be lying if I said it didn't make me a little nervous," said Jennifer Wood, 36, as she took her young son for a walk. "It seems a little in the face, a little too much too soon. I don't know why it has to be here -- this is a big city."

Perhaps I haven't been reading/listening to enough of the press that specializes in demagoguery and outrage, but I honestly haven't heard much about this in the couple of weeks since it first hit the news. Some 9/11 victims' relatives came out against it, but apart from that, nothing. I suppose if you hold all muslims responsible for 9/11 and Islamic terrorism, this would upset you all right. Otherwise, they're as entitled to buy space and build a cultural center/mosque as anyone else in NYC.

Quote from: J70 on May 18, 2010, 09:07:09 PM
Perhaps I haven't been reading/listening to enough of the press that specializes in demagoguery and outrage, but I honestly haven't heard much about this in the couple of weeks since it first hit the news. Some 9/11 victims' relatives came out against it, but apart from that, nothing. I suppose if you hold all muslims responsible for 9/11 and Islamic terrorism, this would upset you all right. Otherwise, they're as entitled to buy space and build a cultural center/mosque as anyone else in NYC.

Look what happened when OWC were outraged when it looked like a stadium might be built on the site of the H blocks, when talk of a monument oyu had some of the numpties on there saying they would take a bulldozer to the place and a lot more time has passed there than with the situation in New York.

They have a right to build a mosque in New York or anywhere in the States, it is a pity this welcoming faith that this guy talks about wouldnt offer the same courtesy to Christian Churches in Muslim countries.

Finally, their choice of location is interesting to say the least.

They have a right to build a mosque in New York or anywhere in the States, it is a pity this welcoming faith that this guy talks about wouldnt offer the same courtesy to Christian Churches in Muslim countries.

Ah, shooting from the hip again....now there's a surprise ::)

Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, IRAN, IRAQ, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, PAKISTAN, Syria, Turkey and UAE......they all have Christian churches.

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on May 18, 2010, 10:01:10 PM
They have a right to build a mosque in New York or anywhere in the States, it is a pity this welcoming faith that this guy talks about wouldnt offer the same courtesy to Christian Churches in Muslim countries.

Ah, shooting from the hip again....now there's a surprise ::)

Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, IRAN, IRAQ, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, PAKISTAN, Syria, Turkey and UAE......they all have Christian churches.

who cares? why are you posting this? are you going to start a thread on the iranian presidents opining on gay rights? course not because that doesn't suit your agenda. most people are on this board for mildly intelligent discussion/entertainment not this. we know where you stand and 99% of posters dont give a fock. in 90 minutes the yankees play the red sox. get a life

Quote from: magickingdom on May 18, 2010, 10:24:53 PM

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on May 18, 2010, 10:01:10 PM
They have a right to build a mosque in New York or anywhere in the States, it is a pity this welcoming faith that this guy talks about wouldnt offer the same courtesy to Christian Churches in Muslim countries.

Ah, shooting from the hip again....now there's a surprise ::)

Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, IRAN, IRAQ, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, PAKISTAN, Syria, Turkey and UAE......they all have Christian churches.

who cares? why are you posting this? are you going to start a thread on the iranian presidents opining on gay rights? course not because that doesn't suit your agenda. most people are on this board for mildly intelligent discussion/entertainment not this. we know where you stand and 99% of posters dont give a fock. in 90 minutes the yankees play the red sox. get a life

Care to explain....who elected you as spokesperson for the board anyway?

If you are not interested then don't post. ::)

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on May 18, 2010, 10:01:10 PM
They have a right to build a mosque in New York or anywhere in the States, it is a pity this welcoming faith that this guy talks about wouldnt offer the same courtesy to Christian Churches in Muslim countries.

Ah, shooting from the hip again....now there's a surprise ::)

Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, IRAN, IRAQ, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, PAKISTAN, Syria, Turkey and UAE......they all have Christian churches.

It's a fair point - how many Muslim countries you been to Stew?

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on May 18, 2010, 10:01:10 PM
They have a right to build a mosque in New York or anywhere in the States, it is a pity this welcoming faith that this guy talks about wouldnt offer the same courtesy to Christian Churches in Muslim countries.

Ah, shooting from the hip again....now there's a surprise ::)

Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, IRAN, IRAQ, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, PAKISTAN, Syria, Turkey and UAE......they all have Christian churches.

I am not shooting from the hip you clampett, I said they have the right to their Mosque, what more do you want? are you suggesting that Muslim countries are open to Christian Churches being built in their Country?

Surely offering a differing opinion should be welcome on this board and if you think I am shooting from the hip on this you have not got a clue.

I always look forward to your opinions, and I'm not talking about the right to build the mosque, even tough I have to admit that I tought there would have been more of an outrage at the idea.....I do not see the need for a 13 storey building.

There are Christian churches throughout the Middle east region as a whole,.....surprised me at first, big exception being Saudi Arabia where you can not even wear a crucifix.

I believe that there are more Jews in Iran.....yes Iran than anywhere else in the ME outside of Israel.

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on May 19, 2010, 07:21:56 PM
I always look forward to your opinions, and I'm not talking about the right to build the mosque, even tough I have to admit that I tought there would have been more of an outrage at the idea.....I do not see the need for a 13 storey building.

There are Christian churches throughout the Middle east region as a whole,.....surprised me at first, big exception being Saudi Arabia where you can not even wear a crucifix.

I believe that there are more Jews in Iran.....yes Iran than anywhere else in the ME outside of Israel.

Why not? NYC is a big city. There are a lot of muslims. This is a 13 story cultural centre that will house a mosque, in addition to other things. Not very big as cultural centres go in NYC.

"the Muslims should reassure the American people by disseminating correct information about Islam, which is a religion of peace and love"

This is one of the quotes above. Honestly now if it was about peace and love show us? All unconcious hate, wreckless anger in the name of there religion. I see no expression of love within it. Do people ever look in the mirror?

On topic, i agree with whoever said theres plenty of space in NYC, and cheaper sites im sure. If they want to spread peace and love let them build it somewhere a fair distance from ground zero as mark of respect. You know lead by actions not words and show compassion for the sensitivities of those who lost loved ones.

Are the catholic Church going to open up a cultural centre across the street from the Shakill Road fish shop????? If not, why not????

Well apparently it is controversial for some! According to a tea party leader, it is a monument to a "monkey god". Must be a piece of work, this Mark Williams. Doesn't appear to be too bothered by the ensuing controversy either. Probably not surprising I'm sure there are quite a few of the tea party element who agree.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/19/2010-05-19_tea_party_leader_mark_williams_says_muslims_worship_a_monkey_god_blasts_ground_z.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/19/2010-05-19_tea_party_leader_mark_williams_says_muslims_worship_a_monkey_god_blasts_ground_z.html)

http://www.marktalk.com/blog/ (http://www.marktalk.com/blog/)

Quote from: J70 on May 20, 2010, 11:31:38 PM
Well apparently it is controversial for some! According to a tea party leader, it is a monument to a "monkey god". Must be a piece of work, this Mark Williams. Doesn't appear to be too bothered by the ensuing controversy either. Probably not surprising I'm sure there are quite a few of the tea party element who agree.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/19/2010-05-19_tea_party_leader_mark_williams_says_muslims_worship_a_monkey_god_blasts_ground_z.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/19/2010-05-19_tea_party_leader_mark_williams_says_muslims_worship_a_monkey_god_blasts_ground_z.html)

http://www.marktalk.com/blog/ (http://www.marktalk.com/blog/)

To me the tae party, or many within this so called tea party are right wing bigots who mask their bigotry behind a thin veil of conservatism, some of them believe it is wrong to give severely dehydrated illegal aliens a mouthful of water if they caught entering the border, sort of flies in the face of their Christianity does it not?

I have more contempt for them that i do the Pelosi crowd, the uber Liberals that would sicken your shite and that takes some doing, call it what it is tea partiers, go buy yourselves a white outfit with a pointy hat and be done with it.

Quotecall it what it is tea partiers Williams, go buy yourself a white outfit with a pointy hat and be done with it.

Very harsh there Stew.... that's precisely the type of rhetoric the left want to pedal on the way into November
and it obviously seems to be working  :-\

I don't see what difference there would be if a mosque, chapel or a synagogue was built beside ground zero... same god.

If you want to talk about poor taste, how about all those street traders, selling WTC merchandise months after it happened.

ok TO, whats your opinions????

I don't see why is it an issue at all. The mosque pre-dates the wtc. How big is Ground Zero? What is an exceptable amount of blocks to be away from Ground Zero.?I believe the mosque is to be located 2 blocks from the corner of what was the north tower and is 4 blocks from the memorial. The name has already been changed as it caused a stir, even though there was nothing wrong with it, only mis-informed public opinion helped by Fox news constant feed of this mis-information made them change the name and yet Fox still refers to it by its previous name.

Also, it is not a Mosque but a Islamic centre, there is two floors for prayers, there will be a cooking school......

This is one of the most ridiculous non-issues being hyped beyond belief that I've ever heard of, with bigots and opportunists jumping on it as a wedge issue in election season.

The only way opposition to this makes sense in terms of the location is if the religion of islam and muslims in general are collectively guilty or guilty by association with regards to 9/11. I wish the Democrats would show a bit more balls like Bloomberg has and come out unequivocally in favour of letting it go ahead. If the Republicans want to make it a wedge issue, either because a given candidate is a bigot or because he is a cynical opportunist willing to sell his soul, then let them. Given the ignorance and bigotry of many Americans when it comes to other religious groupings, it may work against the Democrats, but principles should stand for something. I'll not hold my breath though...

Quote from: J70 on August 20, 2010, 02:49:55 AM
This is one of the most ridiculous non-issues being hyped beyond belief that I've ever heard of, with bigots and opportunists jumping on it as a wedge issue in election season.

The only way opposition to this makes sense in terms of the location is if the religion of islam and muslims in general are collectively guilty or guilty by association with regards to 9/11. I wish the Democrats would show a bit more balls like Bloomberg has and come out unequivocally in favour of letting it go ahead. If the Republicans want to make it a wedge issue, either because a given candidate is a bigot or because he is a cynical opportunist willing to sell his soul, then let them. Given the ignorance and bigotry of many Americans when it comes to other religious groupings, it may work against the Democrats, but principles should stand for something. I'll not hold my breath though...

I saw a very brief interview with the mayor where he basically summed up the situation and shot down any notion of moving the mosque in one sentence. 

I would agree though this is more than a wee bit of a non issue...

Kudos to Bloomberg. A brave and principled move

bump for To.....

Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on August 23, 2010, 02:00:59 AM
bump for To.....

:D WTF...is it all of a sudden important to ye now what I think ???

as you are the self appointed Osama basher and ring wing person on the board. I asked on another thread and you asked me to start a new one, there was one going so i bumped it to the top for your opinion. I watch Fox and i would like to see if you are of a similar opinion. i like to think i try and gather all sides of an argument and don't blindly follow one news source.....

Like Glen Beck always says question everything....

Quote from: J70 on August 20, 2010, 02:49:55 AM
This is one of the most ridiculous non-issues being hyped beyond belief that I've ever heard of, with bigots and opportunists jumping on it as a wedge issue in election season.

The only way opposition to this makes sense in terms of the location is if the religion of islam and muslims in general are collectively guilty or guilty by association with regards to 9/11. I wish the Democrats would show a bit more balls like Bloomberg has and come out unequivocally in favour of letting it go ahead. If the Republicans want to make it a wedge issue, either because a given candidate is a bigot or because he is a cynical opportunist willing to sell his soul, then let them. Given the ignorance and bigotry of many Americans when it comes to other religious groupings, it may work against the Democrats, but principles should stand for something. I'll not hold my breath though...

Agree 100%. Couldnt have put it better myself

Quoteas you are the self appointed Osama basher

Oops  :P think you meant Obama..cause I don't believe I've mentioned the other nut in a couple of years!

Quoteand ring wing person on the board.

Been labeled manys a thing on here by the usual suspects but that's a new on one me :D

QuoteI asked on another thread and you asked me to start a new one

Yes and do you remember why I supported your  idea of starting the new thread?

Quotethere was one going so i bumped it to the top for your opinion

Could be wrong on this but I believe it was Hedly that bumped that for ye!

QuoteI watch Fox and i would like to see if you are of a similar opinion.

Yes and you wonder why I'm uninterested in handing you a big lump of a stick to beat me with
regardless as to how I'd answer that...do you think I'm new to this or something ::)

QuoteLike Glen Beck always says question everything....

It's Glenn (thought you watched him) and it's question with Boldness
as in the great words from the Great Thomas Jefferson 8)

Wow... didn't expect that...

Yes in error i typed Osama instead of Obama but obviously you understood.

Fair enough. Just say you don't want to give your opinion, no need to correct every little thing in my post. Yes, someone else bumped it, and i bumped it a second time. Yes, i left an 'n' off Glenn Beck, just because i mis-typed doesn't mean i don't watch him (strange conclusion), oh and by the way i don't watch him very often anymore as i cannot stomach him for long periods.

Ah poor you "a stick to beat you with", i am just wondering do you have different opinions on everything to me ( and it seems a lot of others on the board) or are you just like Fox and spin everything to be anti-Obama etc...

I can see why there are differing opinions on economy etc.. and can see where people are coming from, even if i disagree with them. I have shared my opinions, sorry you are uncomfortable to share yours.

with this islamic centre beside 'ground zero'
and the oil spill in mexican gulf
with his comments and centre spotlight cameo in the israeli/pali peace talks -
obama has been afforded a couple of diversions from his real job of supposedly running the country and getting the us economy back on track.

hopefully its 'has to get worse before it gets better' and is in the 'got worse' stage of this and will head for 'getting better' soon, as we in Ireland need the knock on effect sooner rather than later !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0

Do any of the balloons that are giving out about this realise that there were people of Islamic faith who were working in the WTC that day that lost their lives that day too. They worked there just like every one else not viewing the WTC as some sort of manifestation of "Western greed"

Islam is just as violent as Christianity or Nationalism or whatever way people decide to divide and distance themselves from others and when any sort of reasoning is abandoned.

If we weren't two months from the election, there'd be hardly a word about it.

Quote from: J70 on August 23, 2010, 11:29:13 PM
If we weren't two months from the election, there'd be hardly a word about it.

Do you actually really believe that  :-\

i doubt he would have put it there if he didn't. Have you an opinion??????? or are you afraid to give it.

I uh hmmm uh agree with TO.

Election time or not this would be big.

A religious group whose patrons/followers attack a city, then said religious group wants to build next to ground zero of attack. News worthy.

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 24, 2010, 04:33:12 AM

Quote from: J70 on August 23, 2010, 11:29:13 PM
If we weren't two months from the election, there'd be hardly a word about it.

Do you actually really believe that  :-\

It'd be a relatively minor thing, mainly an issue in NYC, as it was until the right wing politicians and media seized upon it in a big way over the past month or so, making it a national election issue. You certainly wouldn't have all the mid-life crisis brigade riding in on their Harleys from across the country as happened this weekend. That's just my opinion, but even if I'm wrong it doesn't change the fact that it is a ridiculously hyped non-issue being used as a political football.

The fact is, but for all the publicity, the vast, vast majority of visitors to the WTC area wouldn't even know about it. Its on a nothing side street a couple of blocks north of the site, sitting next door to an Amish Market. Once the PATH train entrance is moved from in front of WTC7 and the tourists are no longer corralled along Vesey Street on the north side of the site, there will be even less people in around that street, which is totally off the downtown tourist trail.

Quote from: DrinkingHarp on August 24, 2010, 08:06:50 AM
I uh hmmm uh agree with TO.

Election time or not this would be big.

A religious group whose patrons/followers attack a city, then said religious group wants to build next to ground zero of attack. News worthy.

In that case the next catholic church (or church from any christian sect) built beside a school or playground should be newsworthy.

Doesn't suprise me in the least that a bunch of idiotic right wing yanks with no knowledge what so ever about Islam would oppose the building of a cultural centre near the site of the twin towers.

Quote from: J70 on August 24, 2010, 09:28:31 PM

Quote from: DrinkingHarp on August 24, 2010, 08:06:50 AM
I uh hmmm uh agree with TO.

Election time or not this would be big.

A religious group whose patrons/followers attack a city, then said religious group wants to build next to ground zero of attack. News worthy.

In that case the next catholic church (or church from any christian sect) built beside a school or playground should be newsworthy.

No harm to ye but that kind of idiotic comment wouldn't be out of place on a school playground :-[
See I don't have so much of a problem with a smart fella like yourself intentionally down playing certain issues
simply to suit your progressive and pathetic bend over backwards sympathizing agenda.. but you do realize that
you have little sheep here that are actually swallowing this Dung fully believing that it's true ::)
Whether you like it or not, it is a huge f**king deal to those insulted by it !!

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 24, 2010, 09:45:40 PM
Doesn't suprise me in the least that a bunch of idiotic right wing yanks with no knowledge what so ever about Islam would oppose the building of a cultural centre near the site of the twin towers.

See...there's the result of your down playing now J... should you tell him or will I that those
"Auld few idiotic right wing yanks" happens to be 77% of the people   :o
But then since when did the will of the people have any bearing on things here since
the Great Black Dope took the reigns  ::)

Should i tell you that a high precentage of Americans thought there were WMD, just because they think it is right doesn't make it right. Those not giving the facts and peddling half truths and spinning the whole thing in the media are causing this percentage, i haven't seen one fair and balance thing on Fox, i can only imagine what the talk radio shows are like.

just because something is popular, doesn't make it correct. People are very mis-informed its seems between the difference between a Mosque and a community centre, the difference between Ground Zero and 2 blocks from GZ or 4 blocks from the actual memorial, the difference between muslims and muslim extremists, the differences between GZ being in the shadow of a mosque or the that it is just another building on another street near GZ and the difference between freedom for all americans or freedom for christian american

They have already changed the name because of mis-informed public opinion, they should not change the location. The people who would use the pray rooms are American, the same as the people who are against it. The people who will use the pray rooms could easily have lost muslim friends and families on 9/11 also like some familes against it. Why are their rights more important than American muslims?

I am sure you seen keith olbermann give his take on it

Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on August 25, 2010, 04:57:16 AM
Should i tell you that a high precentage of Americans thought there were WMD, just because they think it is right doesn't make it right. Those not giving the facts and peddling half truths and spinning the whole thing in the media are causing this percentage, i haven't seen one fair and balance thing on Fox, i can only imagine what the talk radio shows are like.

just because something is popular, doesn't make it correct. People are very mis-informed its seems between the difference between a Mosque and a community centre, the difference between Ground Zero and 2 blocks from GZ or 4 blocks from the actual memorial, the difference between muslims and muslim extremists, the differences between GZ being in the shadow of a mosque or the that it is just another building on another street near GZ and the difference between freedom for all americans or freedom for christian american

They have already changed the name because of mis-informed public opinion, they should not change the location. The people who would use the pray rooms are American, the same as the people who are against it. The people who will use the pray rooms could easily have lost muslim friends and families on 9/11 also like some familes against it. Why are their rights more important than American muslims?

I am sure you seen keith olbermann give his take on it

I did indeed but sure I need not have bothered as you've just quoted the divisive, deplorable and habitual liar above word for word
Yet you have the neck to continually berate Fox for being biased and think no one notices the irony :D

Not touching this one  - but to paraphrase that Dromore eejit Zapastista


"America have been building ground zeros beside mosques for years"

(Drunk).

Is a mosquito a mosque for midgits?

Can you please point out where i have quoted him (i am not aware of his other work so i don't know what sort of individual he is). Thanks, should be interesting......

Ah a snide remark, the signature of TO with the smiley. Do you think people haven't noticed you do this to everyone elses posts but don't (or afraid) to share your own opinions because someone might make a snide remark about your posts.

QuoteCan you please point out where i have quoted him

Right here;
"They have already changed the name because of mis-informed public opinion, they should not change the location. The people who would use the pray rooms are American, the same as the people who are against it. The people who will use the pray rooms could easily have lost muslim friends and families on 9/11 also like some familes against it. Why are their rights more important than American muslims?"

That my friend is word for word from his script on his show if you'd call it that!

Quote(i am not aware of his other work so i don't know what sort of individual he is)

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that that is not entirely true :-\ I think the dogs
on the street are on to him at this stage!

QuoteAh a snide remark, the signature of TO with the smiley. Do you think people haven't noticed you do this to everyone elses posts but don't (or afraid) to share your own opinions because someone might make a snide remark about your posts.

When you get up off your knees and stop with the infatuation of me I might feel a little
more comfortable engaging you....it's kinda embarrassing :-[

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 25, 2010, 02:55:22 AM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 24, 2010, 09:45:40 PM
Doesn't suprise me in the least that a bunch of idiotic right wing yanks with no knowledge what so ever about Islam would oppose the building of a cultural centre near the site of the twin towers.

See...there's the result of your down playing now J... should you tell him or will I that those
"Auld few idiotic right wing yanks" happens to be 77% of the people   :o
But then since when did the will of the people have any bearing on things here since
the Great Black Dope took the reigns  ::)

Really 77% of Americans are right wing imbeciles, I didn't think the percentage was that high but I will bow to your knowledge on this given you are one of them.

Now now....no need to get nasty just because you got caught out.
Does myle's post fit the description of a smart arsed snide post PHP ?

TO, a serious question here.

Do you think anyone on here takes a single word you type as gospel?

Are you done being made a fool out of by HS on the other thread ?

Nice try TO.  Care to answer the question for once?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on August 25, 2010, 09:35:05 PM
Nice try TO.  Care to answer the question for once?

:D :D feck but that gets me everytime... Especially coming from you
Surely you know by now how ridiculous you of all people sound when
you play the "question dodging" card!
Anywho... I'll throw you a bone; quote where you think i've lied and I'll
Try to find a link for ye... That sounds fair right?

I didn't accuse you of lying.  I said no-one takes a single word you say as gospel.  There is quite a difference

Tyrone's Own:

Were did you get that figure of 77% of the American people are against the mosque being built in NYC? I'm just curious as I live in Chicago and I know that most people don't give a damn about what happens in NYC. I personally don't get what the big deal is. I live pretty close to a mosque here and besides the traffic on Fridays, nobody complains about it.

Mrs redandblack4ever.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on August 25, 2010, 09:48:42 PM
I didn't accuse you of lying.  I said no-one takes a single word you say as gospel.  There is quite a difference

Really  ??? What would that be?

Quote from: redandblack4ever on August 25, 2010, 10:12:15 PM
Tyrone's Own:

Were did you get that figure of 77% of the American people are against the mosque being built in NYC? I'm just curious as I live in Chicago and I know that most people don't give a damn about what happens in NYC. I personally don't get what the big deal is. I live pretty close to a mosque here and besides the traffic on Fridays, nobody complains about it.

Mrs redandblack4ever.

Fox news where he gets all his opinions.

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 25, 2010, 02:44:40 AM

Quote from: J70 on August 24, 2010, 09:28:31 PM

Quote from: DrinkingHarp on August 24, 2010, 08:06:50 AM
I uh hmmm uh agree with TO.

Election time or not this would be big.

A religious group whose patrons/followers attack a city, then said religious group wants to build next to ground zero of attack. News worthy.

In that case the next catholic church (or church from any christian sect) built beside a school or playground should be newsworthy.

No harm to ye but that kind of idiotic comment wouldn't be out of place on a school playground :-[
See I don't have so much of a problem with a smart fella like yourself intentionally down playing certain issues
simply to suit your progressive and pathetic bend over backwards sympathizing agenda.. but you do realize that
you have little sheep here that are actually swallowing this Dung fully believing that it's true ::)
Whether you like it or not, it is a huge f**king deal to those insulted by it !!

What am I apparently downplaying?

(Actually, scratch that if you're referring to whether or not this would be a big issue in a non-election year. I've already stated that the supposition, that it would not be so, is my opinion, not fact. A strongly held opinion, nonetheless.)

How is objecting to irrational opposition to the building of a place of religious worship/cultural centre, supposedly a cherished right in American society, an example of my "progressive and pathetic bend over backwards sympathizing agenda"?

No doubt you don't see this opposition as irrational. If so, I'd love to hear the rational basis for it. Because muslim trophy monuments and comparisons to memorials to the Nazis at Auschwitz certainly ain't it.

As for the catholic thing, of course its an idiotic comment, but it is no more (and IMO less) idiotic than objecting to the building of the mosque by this crowd because of 9/11. The catholic church collaborated in and covered up chronic hideous criminal behaviour by its members against children. How is this muslim group any more guilty by association?

This issue should be debated on its merits, not on the popularity of either position. Its not like popular or institutionalized prejudice and bigotry and ignorance are unprecedented.

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 25, 2010, 08:54:17 PM
Now now....no need to get nasty just because you got caught out.
Does myle's post fit the description of a smart arsed snide post PHP ?

How did I get caught out? Is it because I thought somewhere near 50% of Yanks are right wing idiots while the figure is actually 77% according to you? My apologies...

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 25, 2010, 10:15:54 PM

Quote from: redandblack4ever on August 25, 2010, 10:12:15 PM
Tyrone's Own:

Were did you get that figure of 77% of the American people are against the mosque being built in NYC? I'm just curious as I live in Chicago and I know that most people don't give a damn about what happens in NYC. I personally don't get what the big deal is. I live pretty close to a mosque here and besides the traffic on Fridays, nobody complains about it.

Mrs redandblack4ever.

Fox news where he gets all his opinions.

Why dont you let him answer the question myles - I am kinda interested.

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 25, 2010, 02:55:22 AM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 24, 2010, 09:45:40 PM
Doesn't suprise me in the least that a bunch of idiotic right wing yanks with no knowledge what so ever about Islam would oppose the building of a cultural centre near the site of the twin towers.

See...there's the result of your down playing now J... should you tell him or will I that those
"Auld few idiotic right wing yanks" happens to be 77% of the people   :o

And only 39% of the US population believe in evolution (it's only science FFS) -- are you with the 61% majority who don't TO?  :D

http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx (http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx)

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 25, 2010, 10:35:05 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 25, 2010, 02:55:22 AM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 24, 2010, 09:45:40 PM
Doesn't suprise me in the least that a bunch of idiotic right wing yanks with no knowledge what so ever about Islam would oppose the building of a cultural centre near the site of the twin towers.

See...there's the result of your down playing now J... should you tell him or will I that those
"Auld few idiotic right wing yanks" happens to be 77% of the people   :o

And only 39% of the US population believe in evolution (it's only science FFS) -- are you with the 61% majority who don't TO?  :D

http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx (http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx)

It would be interesting to see the overlap between the two groups.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 25, 2010, 10:15:54 PM

Quote from: redandblack4ever on August 25, 2010, 10:12:15 PM
Tyrone's Own:

Were did you get that figure of 77% of the American people are against the mosque being built in NYC? I'm just curious as I live in Chicago and I know that most people don't give a damn about what happens in NYC. I personally don't get what the big deal is. I live pretty close to a mosque here and besides the traffic on Fridays, nobody complains about it.

Mrs redandblack4ever.

Fox news where he gets all his opinions.

*yawn* Change the fecking record lads will ye FFS... ;
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/august_2010/many_more_now_following_mosque_controversy_and_don_t_like_it

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-if-anyone-is-fanatic-its-sarah-palin-2061019.html


Mark Steel: If anyone is fanatic it's Sarah Palin

How far away is it permissible to be a Muslim? Maybe there should be special guidelines - for example, three blocks before you can whistle anything by Cat Stevens


Wednesday, 25 August 2010


To give yourself a stressful and futile day, try telling people there are no plans to build a mosque at Ground Zero. You'll get nowhere, although the truth is there are plans to build an Islamic centre, with a swimming pool open to everyone, two blocks away from Ground Zero. So if this is a continuation of the terrorist agenda as claimed, it's been a peculiar plan, and Bin Laden must have started by telling his followers "First we will destroy their buildings – and then, oo it's so deliciously evil, we will get people to swim near to where the buildings were... mwaHAHAHAHAHA."


The centre will include a memorial to victims of the attack on the towers, but even so Sarah Palin has called upon "peaceful Muslims" to reject the building. So, as she's asking Muslims to oppose a centre open to everyone, and that commemorates the victims of 9/11, it seems likely she's a militant Jihadist who thinks the building will be a betrayal of true radical Islam. She's certainly got experience of being filmed with rifles so she's probably sat by one while making a video up a mountain right now, leaning into the camera and booming "The front crawl is the agenda of the infidel, my friends."

The centre will also include a basketball court, but that doesn't convince these people because it won't be proper basketball, it will be Muslim basketball, and there's bound to have been some senator on Fox News howling "We've got to ask ourselves why these guys want to learn an American sport like this. Now, you imagine you've got the tallest Muslims learning to jump up high, next time you want to bring down a tower you don't have to fly planes to do it, you just get these guys to jump up with whatever bomb they've smuggled in through Mexico and whack, you've got five million dead."

And it's two blocks away, which in Manhattan is another district. So how far away is it permissible to be Muslim? Maybe there needs to be specific guidelines, for example three blocks before you can whistle anything by Cat Stevens, five blocks away before you can stop eating during Ramadan and so on, so as not to offend the families of the victims.

One persistent argument of those who oppose the mosque that isn't a mosque on Ground Zero that won't be on Ground Zero is that Ground Zero should remain a special place of sombre tranquillity.

So instead of this centre there should be more buildings such as The Pussycat Club, which is next door to where the towers were, and boasts of being the area's premier strip joint. But that must be in keeping with the sombreness, presumably because the girls start their slide down the pole in a fireman's uniform in honour of the heroic firefighters of that fateful day.

Then there are the salesmen who hover round Ground Zero. As you contemplate the poignancy of the site, someone from this franchise stands soulfully by you, taps your shoulder and opens a leather-bound collection of photos of the Twin Towers on fire.

"Hi, I'm offering souvenirs of 9/11," I was told when I was there. What are you supposed to say to that? Are you meant to go "Oo yes, you've caught the contrast between the fire and the clouds on that one, what a delightful shade of crimson?" So wait until Fox News and the Tea Party hear about that level of dishonouring the victims. Oo they'll be cross.

A philosophical argument against the new building came from Mark Williams, chairman and spokesman for the Tea Party, who said "The mosque would be for the worship of the terrorists' monkey god." To start with he appears to have mixed up Islam with Hinduism, so it may be when he finds that out he'll change his mind, and say "Oh it's Hindus with the monkey god. Silly me, well in that case go ahead with the mosque, it's Hindus I have a problem with, it's all to do with being squeamish about monkeys."

Similarly, Newt Gingrich, who hopes to be Republican candidate for President, said "The folks who want to build this mosque are radical Islamists."

And this is where they're more honest, because they seem to believe all Muslims are terrorists. In which case they don't really care where a mosque or Islamic centre is built, just as if the Continuity IRA applied for planning permission to build an explosives-testing plant, you wouldn't say "Well alright but not if it's less than half a mile from Canterbury Cathedral as that would be insensitive."

So there have been protests across America against mosques, in places such as Tennessee and Wisconsin. Presumably the argument there is "Imagine if someone who was in the Twin Towers on 9/11 was still so traumatised that they sleepwalked, and by chance one night they dreamily ambled into Grand Central station and got a train to Wisconsin and got out and wandered through the state and woke up just as they were by the new mosque, well it could be quite a shock."

More likely is there's a section of America that hates Muslims, and those like Palin and Gingrich are delighted to lead them. According to the latest survey, 24 per cent of America believes that Barack Obama is Muslim, and the Tea Party politicians promote that nonsense.

Obama seems willing to try and placate characters such as Palin, but he might be better off saying "Alright then – nothing Islamic near Ground Zero, but that principle applies to everything. So every Catholic Church within two blocks of a school is being shut down, as it would be grossly insensitive to allow an institution with such a record of child abuse to worship near its victims.

"We're withdrawing every branch of Macdonalds and Starbucks from Vietnam, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama or anywhere else we've ever bombed, and we're telling Wall Street that it has to move to New Jersey, as the Twin Towers were called the World Trade Center and the bankers were the ones that stopped the global economy in it's tracks."

Again Tyrone Own's, will you please answer my question. Where did you get that figure of 77% of Americans are against the building of the mosque/Isalmic Center in NYC? As I said most people outside of NYC are more worried about the economy and finding/keeping a job than what's happening in NYC..

Think that % is very high.  Dont see the problem with the Mosque myself, would doubt if there is even 77% of NYers against it.  And what of the Mosques close  by that is only four blocks from GZ, not a word of them?
Republicans have jumped all over this with November elections in mind, nothing else.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gary-arndt/20-thing-ive-learned-from_b_673264.html?ref=fb&src=sp (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gary-arndt/20-thing-ive-learned-from_b_673264.html?ref=fb&src=sp)

Well worth 3 minutes.

The world from a (well-travelled) American perspective.

Quote from: redandblack4ever on August 25, 2010, 11:58:16 PM
Again Tyrone Own's, will you please answer my question. Where did you get that figure of 77% of Americans are against the building of the mosque/Isalmic Center in NYC? As I said most people outside of NYC are more worried about the economy and finding/keeping a job than what's happening in NYC..

What part of the link above didn't work for ye there Mrs.. should I post it again ?

QuoteObama seems willing to try and placate characters such as Palin, but he might be better off saying "Alright then – nothing Islamic near Ground Zero, but that principle applies to everything. So every Catholic Church within two blocks of a school is being shut down, as it would be grossly insensitive to allow an institution with such a record of child abuse to worship near its victims.

So you and J are obviously singing from the same liberal hymn book I see.... It was idiotic when he pedaled it (admittedly)
and hasn't improved much with your delivery of it ::)

I am not sure what you think word for word is but you are wrong about that also. No doubt i have similar opinion and closer than those pedelled on fox about the "grond zero mosque" but i did not quote him or is it close to word for word.

Your assumption that i know more of Keith Olbermann is wrong, this is the first i have ever heard or seen him. I live in Thailand. Fox, BBC World, Al Jazeera and France24 are the only news channels i get. I was sent a link from a friend of mine in the US as i was asking him what has he heard from his mates about it, as its all over Fox, was it "fox news" or actual news in the US. I don't use political forums but enjoy keeping up with current affairs around the world (isolated in my small tropical paradise).

You again ended with a snipe remark and yes some made a snipe remark to you after that. Anyway you are still knocking other peoples opinion without giving your own, although they are becoming clearer (i wouldn't like to assume anything)

the article about this was first printed in the NY Times last december
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html

strange that there was no reaction then, oh, hang on, wait a minute...

this non issue cracks me up what a storm in a feckin' tea cup.
first amendment :

QuoteCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

that bit comes before free speech and freedom of the press in case anyone actually cared.

this is the political bandwagon? not the middle east crisis, troops in Afghanistan or Iraq, national debt, bankers raping main street, percentage of americans below the poverty line, discrimination, no coherent immigration policy, oil dependence or spillage, pensions or the education deficit in the US?
not this- the key issue in America today is whether a muslim community centre (or center) for some of the city's 800,000 Muslims has pissed off someone that disagrees with the first amendment.

wake up, if you're going to be political find a proper issue. nobody who lives or works there gives a crap about this issue, its more of the pc brigade and moral indignation about "Oh I think I should be offended by this- shouldn't I be?" Down with this sort of thing - nonsense.

(http://www.hamovhotov.com/fun/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/i-see-dumb-people-everywhere.jpg)

The Ground Zero Synagogue—Lebanon Becoming More American than America


"There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia. The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over."— Newt Gingrich

Has Lebanon officially become more tolerant and progressive than the United States?

Let's talk about Lebanon's Ground Zero and you can decide for yourself.

One must first understand what "Ground Zero" means to most Lebanese.

In a country with about the same land mass as Los Angeles County which has been at war off and on for nearly four decades, "Ground Zero" for the Lebanese is arguably their entire country—and at the center of their Ground Zero is downtown Beirut, captured and occupied by the Israeli Defense Force in 1982 and which was almost entirely reduced to rubble from Muslim West Beirut to Christian East Beirut, and all points in between.

Once upon a time not too long ago, there was scarcely a building left standing or unscarred by shrapnel in all of Beirut.  I know, because I was in Beirut in 1991, and witnessed first hand a city once described as "the Paris of  the Middle East" reduced to ruins, pot marked with unexploded munitions and a haphazzard "network" of open sewers. 

Miraculously,  Beirut was rebuilt and reclaimed its prominence.  It once again became the jewel of the Arab world, remarkably able to bridge the ancient mystique of the east with the modern allure of the west. 

Upon the first completion of its "rebuilding" process however--after 15 years and tens of billions of dollars spent on reconstructing Lebanon and its Ground Zero from rubble to splendor, Israel did what Israel does...

In July and August of 2006, Israel again followed through on its promise to "bomb Lebanon back into the Stone Age," and in so doing displaced 1,000,000 Lebanese civilians (nearly a quarter of the country's population), completely destroyed the country's infrastructure (again), its only airport, at least 64 bridges, leveled entire buildings and neighborhoods to rubble (again), including the country's largest milk factory, a food factory, two pharmaceutical plants, water treatment centers, power plants, grain silos, a Greek Orthodox Church, several mosques, and a handful of hospitals (in a country which only had a handful of hospitals to begin with).

Over 1,200 hundred Lebanese civilians were killed and over 5,000 wounded.

Israel routinely talks about "proportionality" when comparing their "terrorism deaths" to American 9/11 deaths. In order to shock the sensibilities of a gullible American public, they portray a figure "in American terms," by multiplying their dead by a number which reflects their population in comparison to the American population.

Well, what's good for the Israeli goose is good for the Lebanese gander. I will play their game: 1,200 dead Lebanese civilians are the "proportional equivalent" to 90,000 American dead when accounting for the two countries' population differences. Therefore, according to Israeli goose math, that's the equivalent of roughly thirty 9/11's Israel exacted on Lebanon in July and August 2006 over the course of 34 days—nearly one 9/11 a day for an entire month without relent.

Incidentally, July and August of 2006 only tell a small part of the story when it comes to Israeli aggression against Lebanon. There have been decades of invasion, devastation, and occupation which predated 2006. Several thousands of Lebanese have been killed at the hands of the Israeli Defense Force. Tens of billions of dollars of damage have been levied on the Lebanese infrastructure and private and public property courtesy of the IDF over the course of decades.

"Ground Zero" for Lebanon is an ever expanding, never ending, open wound that never heals.

So what now Newt?

Should you expect the Lebanese to allow a synagogue to be built on their Ground Zero, in the aftermath of a 9/11 that occurred 5 years after ours and which, "proportionately" speaking, was 30 times the size of ours?

Well guess what you hateful, misguided, twit? 

THEY DID.

In the process of re-building Beirut yet again, in 2008, renovations began and have now been completed on the Maghden Abraham Synagogue located in the middle of newly renovated downtown Beirut in an area known as the "Solidere" which has become the focal point and showcase of Lebanon's rebirth.

This isn't some hole in the wall, nondescript, "excuse me" synagogue hidden out of view so as to not "offend" Lebanese non-Jews—this is an elaborate, ornate, beautifully designed, cathedral-style house of worship built for a Lebanese Jewish population that totals less than 500 in a country of more than 4,000,000 (in stark contrast to the eight million American Muslims living in the United States).

And wait until you hear Hezbollah's response to the building of this Ground Zero Synagogue.

(To those expecting a Newt Gingrich equivalent response, prepare to be woefully disappointed).

Courtesy of Hassan Nasrallah himself: "We respect Judaism, just as we respect Christianity. Our only problem is with Israel."

Did you hear that Newt (and the rest of you idiots)?

An Arab democracy, with a Muslim Prime Minister and a Christian President, allowed the building of a synagogue, squarely in the center of their "Ground Zero" in the heart and pride of downtown Beirut which used to be a dumping ground for Israeli military ordinances.

An Arab democracy allowed this, without so much as a protest being made by its citizens, or allegations by politicians that this was sacrilege, or hateful commentary by the media that the Jewish faith was barbaric, or any of the other stupidity I have seen and heard plastered all over American television, talk radio, and internet-blogs regarding a certain "Ground Zero Mosque" and the Islamic faith.

Regardless of whether you perceive Israel to be justified in perpetrating the devastation it did on Lebanon is irrelevant. The purpose of this article is not to debate that.  What cannot be debated, is that Israel (a Jewish State, flying a Jewish flag) unleashed hell on Lebanon for 34 straight days in July and August of 2006 (and for decades prior in its wars against Lebanon). Regardless of whether or not you feel Israel had a right to do that, you cannot deny that Lebanese civilians harbored, and continue to harbor, a very real resentment against the government of Israel—this Jewish state—for those actions and the devestation those actions caused.

Yet these very Lebanese, who are so quickly labeled as "blood thirsty terrorists" by Newt Gingrich and his army of xenophobic morons, were able to draw a distinction between the Jews "flying those planes" in July and August of 2006 working at the behest of the Israeli government, and the Jews whom are citizens of Lebanon who had no connection with those attacks.

Lebanon rebuilt that Ground Zero Synagogue for its Jews.

Not for Israel. Not for the world's Jewry. Not as a monument to mark a "Jewish victory" over Lebanon.

Lebanon rebuilt that Ground Zero Synagogue because its Jews lived in that neighborhood and they had every right to build a house of worship in a place they called home.

For crying out loud, Hassan Nassrallah and Hezbollah can even draw the distinction between a Lebanese Jew and an Israeli soldier who happens to be a Jew. So how is it that Americans can't distinguish between American Muslims who were victims of 9/11 and Saudi Muslims who were the perpetrators of 9/11?

Thank you Mr. Gingrich for allowing Hassan Nasrallah and Hezbollah to outclass you and the Republican Party (and you Democrats aren't too far behind--yes Harry Reid, I'm talking to you). When the former Republican Speaker of the House and the current Democratic Senate Majority Leader start sounding less tolerant and less reasonable than a "terrorist," we need to start sounding the alarm bells.

What a sad state of affairs for America

The title of the thread is wrong. It's a cultural centre 2 blocks away from Ground Zero.

9/11 Families Join In Support of Mosque Near Ground Zero


NEW YORK--As tensions build over the proposed construction of an Islamic community center near ground zero, new coalitions have organized to protect the structure from the growing opposition to its completion.

On Wednesday, representatives from several of the over 40 organizations that joined the New York Neighbors for American Values spoke at a rally near City Hall to announce the establishment of their new coalition, which supports the building of Park51 under the "core American values of religious freedom, diversity, and equality," said Susan Lerner, director of Common Cause New York. Common Cause is a government watchdog group.

Donna O'Conner, who lost her pregnant daughter in the 9/11 attacks and is the spokeswoman for September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, said in a press statement, "We cannot bring back the family members we lost on 9/11 but we can try to recoup what is best about America. We are firm in our commitment to civil liberties and religious freedom."

At the rally, she reaffirmed her support for Park51: "We [9/11 families] 100 percent fully support the Islamic cultural center in New York City."

Donna Lieberman, director of the New York Civil Liberties Union (NYCLU), a civil rights advocacy group, emphasized that religious freedom in America should not exclude any group from enjoying those rights. "We reject the refrain of freedom of religion, but not in my backyard...preventing Muslims or any group...from practicing their faith is unconstitutional and goes against the very core of America."

She disagreed with the assumption that Muslims in America are the same as the Islam extremists who conducted the 9/11 attacks. "We unequivocally reject...the fear-mongering, the crude stereotypes meant to frighten and divide us."

Lieberman noted that given the proximity of the NYCLU office to the World Trade Center towers, many NYCLU workers have felt the impact of the attacks first-hand, but it does not change their belief in defending "the rights of all religious denominations."

She continued, "In conversations about terrible tragedies, 9/11...we know that those who lost loved ones have a special place in the conversation, and when they stand up for American values, even though it may hurt, it's really important that all of America hears that." When one religious group is threatened of its livelihood, all of us suffer, she argued.

Rabbi Arthur Waskow, director of the Shalom Center, expressed that blocking the building of Park51 indicates discrimination and prejudice, which he described as intolerable in America. Furthermore, he believed building Park51 would demonstrate the nation's commitment to its founding principles. "It is right, it is wise for them to do that [construct Park51] because by doing that, they are the beacon to New York City, to America, to the world, a beacon of the best." Park51, which will house a swimming pool, office space, an auditorium, and other facilities, will reveal "an Islam that seeks peace, that practices dialogue," Waskow said.

Abdul Baqi, director of the Muslim Leadership Council, believes that Park51 can boost much-needed economic growth in the community. He also expressed that Muslims were victims of the 9/11 attack too. "We have lost people, loved ones, friends and family, and now we are being doubly victimized by people trying to depict us in one broad stroke of the brush, as something evil." For years, Muslims have practiced their faith in New York. In fact, there was a praying center in the second World Trade Center Tower, Baqi noted

Building a Nation of Know-Nothings
By TIMOTHY EGAN

Timothy Egan on American politics and life, as seen from the West.



Having shed much of his dignity, core convictions and reputation for straight talk, Senator John McCain won his primary on Tuesday against the flat-earth wing of his party. Now McCain can go search for his lost character, which was last on display late in his 2008 campaign for president.

Remember the moment: a woman with matted hair and a shaky voice rose to express her doubts about Barack Obama. "I have read about him," she said, "and he's not — he's an Arab."

McCain was quick to knock down the lie. "No, ma'am," he said, "he's a decent family man, a citizen."

That ill-informed woman — her head stuffed with fabrications that could be disproved by a pre-schooler — now makes up a representative third or more of the Republican party. It's not just that 47 percent of Republicans believe the lie that Obama is a Muslim, or that 27 percent in the party doubt that the president of the United States is a citizen. But fully half of them believe falsely that the big bailout of banks and insurance companies under TARP was enacted by Obama, and not by President Bush.

Take a look at Tuesday night's box score in the baseball game between New York and Toronto. The Yankees won, 11-5. Now look at the weather summary, showing a high of 71 for New York. The score and temperature are not subject to debate.

Yet a president's birthday or whether he was even in the White House on the day TARP was passed are apparently open questions. A growing segment of the party poised to take control of Congress has bought into denial of the basic truths of Barack Obama's life. What's more, this astonishing level of willful ignorance has come about largely by design, and has been aided by a press afraid to call out the primary architects of the lies.

The Democrats may deserve to lose in November. They have been terrible at trying to explain who they stand for and the larger goal of their governance. But if they lose, it should be because their policies are unpopular or ill-conceived — not because millions of people believe a lie.

In the much-discussed Pew poll reporting the spike in ignorance, those who believe Obama to be Muslim say they got their information from the media. But no reputable news agency — that is, fact-based, one that corrects its errors quickly — has spread such inaccuracies.

  So where is this "media?" Two sources, and they are — no surprise here — the usual suspects. The first, of course, is Rush Limbaugh, who claims the largest radio audience in the land among the microphone demagogues, and his word is Biblical among Republicans. A few quick examples of the Limbaugh method:

"Tomorrow is Obama's birthday — not that we've seen any proof of that," he said on Aug. 3. "They tell us Aug. 4 is the birthday; we haven't seen any proof of that."

Of course, there is proof as clear as that baseball box score. Look here, www.factcheck.org, for starters, one of many places posting Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate.

On the Muslim deception, Limbaugh has sprinkled lie dust all over the place. "Obama says he's a Christian, but where's the evidence?" he said on Aug. 19. He has repeatedly called the president "imam Obama," and said, "I'm just throwing things out there, folks, because people are questioning his Christianity."

You see how he works. He drops in suggestions, hints, notes that "people are questioning" things. The design is to make Obama un-American. Then he says it's a tweak, a provocation. He says this as a preemptive way to keep the press from calling him out. And it works; long profiles of Limbaugh have largely gone easy on him.

Once Limbaugh has planted a lie, a prominent politician can pick it up, with little nuance. So, over the weekend, Kim Lehman, one of Iowa's two Republican National Committee members, went public with doubts on Obama's Christianity. Of course, she was not condemned by party leaders.

It's curious, also, that any felon, drug addict, or recovering hedonist can loudly proclaim a sudden embrace of Jesus and be welcomed without doubt by leaders of the religious right. But a thoughtful Christian like Obama is still distrusted.

"I am a devout Christian," Obama told Christianity Today in 2008. "I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ." That's not enough, apparently, for Rev. Franklin Graham, the partisan son of the great evangelical leader, who said last week that Obama was "born a Muslim because of the religious seed passed on from his father."

Actually, he was born from two non-practicing parents, and his Kenyan father was absent for all of his upbringing. Obama came to his Christianity like millions of people, through searching and questioning.

Finally, there is Fox News, whose parent company has given $1 million to Republican causes this year but still masquerades as a legitimate source of news. Their chat and opinion programs spread innuendo daily. The founder of Politifact, another nonpartisan referee to the daily rumble, said two of the site's five most popular items on its Truth-o-meter are corrections of Glenn Beck.

Beck tosses off enough half-truths in a month to keep Politifact working overtime. Of late, he has gone after Michelle Obama, whose vacation in Spain was "just for her and approximately 40 of her friends." Limbaugh had a similar line, saying the First Lady "is taking 40 of her best friends and leasing 60 rooms at a five-star hotel — paid for by you."

The White House said Michelle Obama and her daughter Sasha were accompanied by just a few friends — and they paid their own costs. But, wink, wink, the damage is done. He's Muslim and foreign. She's living the luxe life on your dime. They don't even have to mention race. The code words do it for them.

Climate-change denial is a special category all its own. Once on the fringe, dismissal of scientific consensus is now an article of faith among leading Republicans, again taking their cue from Limbaugh and Fox.

It would be nice to dismiss the stupid things that Americans believe as harmless, the price of having such a large, messy democracy. Plenty of hate-filled partisans swore that Abraham Lincoln was a Catholic and Franklin Roosevelt was a Jew. So what if one-in-five believe the sun revolves around the earth, or aren't sure from which country the United States gained its independence?

But false belief in weapons of mass-destruction led the United States to a trillion-dollar war. And trust in rising home value as a truism as reliable as a sunrise was a major contributor to the catastrophic collapse of the economy. At its worst extreme, a culture of misinformation can produce something like Iran, which is run by a Holocaust denier.

It's one thing to forget the past, with predictable consequences, as the favorite aphorism goes. But what about those who refuse to comprehend the present?



by timothy Egan, in the New York times
opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/building-a-nation-of-know-nothings (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/building-a-nation-of-know-nothings)

Quote from: give her dixie on August 26, 2010, 03:50:02 PM
The Ground Zero Synagogue—Lebanon Becoming More American than America


"There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia. The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over."— Newt Gingrich

Has Lebanon officially become more tolerant and progressive than the United States?

Let's talk about Lebanon's Ground Zero and you can decide for yourself.

One must first understand what "Ground Zero" means to most Lebanese.

In a country with about the same land mass as Los Angeles County which has been at war off and on for nearly four decades, "Ground Zero" for the Lebanese is arguably their entire country—and at the center of their Ground Zero is downtown Beirut, captured and occupied by the Israeli Defense Force in 1982 and which was almost entirely reduced to rubble from Muslim West Beirut to Christian East Beirut, and all points in between.

Once upon a time not too long ago, there was scarcely a building left standing or unscarred by shrapnel in all of Beirut.  I know, because I was in Beirut in 1991, and witnessed first hand a city once described as "the Paris of  the Middle East" reduced to ruins, pot marked with unexploded munitions and a haphazzard "network" of open sewers. 

Miraculously,  Beirut was rebuilt and reclaimed its prominence.  It once again became the jewel of the Arab world, remarkably able to bridge the ancient mystique of the east with the modern allure of the west. 

Upon the first completion of its "rebuilding" process however--after 15 years and tens of billions of dollars spent on reconstructing Lebanon and its Ground Zero from rubble to splendor, Israel did what Israel does...

In July and August of 2006, Israel again followed through on its promise to "bomb Lebanon back into the Stone Age," and in so doing displaced 1,000,000 Lebanese civilians (nearly a quarter of the country's population), completely destroyed the country's infrastructure (again), its only airport, at least 64 bridges, leveled entire buildings and neighborhoods to rubble (again), including the country's largest milk factory, a food factory, two pharmaceutical plants, water treatment centers, power plants, grain silos, a Greek Orthodox Church, several mosques, and a handful of hospitals (in a country which only had a handful of hospitals to begin with).

Over 1,200 hundred Lebanese civilians were killed and over 5,000 wounded.

Israel routinely talks about "proportionality" when comparing their "terrorism deaths" to American 9/11 deaths. In order to shock the sensibilities of a gullible American public, they portray a figure "in American terms," by multiplying their dead by a number which reflects their population in comparison to the American population.

Well, what's good for the Israeli goose is good for the Lebanese gander. I will play their game: 1,200 dead Lebanese civilians are the "proportional equivalent" to 90,000 American dead when accounting for the two countries' population differences. Therefore, according to Israeli goose math, that's the equivalent of roughly thirty 9/11's Israel exacted on Lebanon in July and August 2006 over the course of 34 days—nearly one 9/11 a day for an entire month without relent.

Incidentally, July and August of 2006 only tell a small part of the story when it comes to Israeli aggression against Lebanon. There have been decades of invasion, devastation, and occupation which predated 2006. Several thousands of Lebanese have been killed at the hands of the Israeli Defense Force. Tens of billions of dollars of damage have been levied on the Lebanese infrastructure and private and public property courtesy of the IDF over the course of decades.

"Ground Zero" for Lebanon is an ever expanding, never ending, open wound that never heals.

So what now Newt?

Should you expect the Lebanese to allow a synagogue to be built on their Ground Zero, in the aftermath of a 9/11 that occurred 5 years after ours and which, "proportionately" speaking, was 30 times the size of ours?

Well guess what you hateful, misguided, twit? 

THEY DID.

In the process of re-building Beirut yet again, in 2008, renovations began and have now been completed on the Maghden Abraham Synagogue located in the middle of newly renovated downtown Beirut in an area known as the "Solidere" which has become the focal point and showcase of Lebanon's rebirth.

This isn't some hole in the wall, nondescript, "excuse me" synagogue hidden out of view so as to not "offend" Lebanese non-Jews—this is an elaborate, ornate, beautifully designed, cathedral-style house of worship built for a Lebanese Jewish population that totals less than 500 in a country of more than 4,000,000 (in stark contrast to the eight million American Muslims living in the United States).

And wait until you hear Hezbollah's response to the building of this Ground Zero Synagogue.

(To those expecting a Newt Gingrich equivalent response, prepare to be woefully disappointed).

Courtesy of Hassan Nasrallah himself: "We respect Judaism, just as we respect Christianity. Our only problem is with Israel."

Did you hear that Newt (and the rest of you idiots)?

An Arab democracy, with a Muslim Prime Minister and a Christian President, allowed the building of a synagogue, squarely in the center of their "Ground Zero" in the heart and pride of downtown Beirut which used to be a dumping ground for Israeli military ordinances.

An Arab democracy allowed this, without so much as a protest being made by its citizens, or allegations by politicians that this was sacrilege, or hateful commentary by the media that the Jewish faith was barbaric, or any of the other stupidity I have seen and heard plastered all over American television, talk radio, and internet-blogs regarding a certain "Ground Zero Mosque" and the Islamic faith.

Regardless of whether you perceive Israel to be justified in perpetrating the devastation it did on Lebanon is irrelevant. The purpose of this article is not to debate that.  What cannot be debated, is that Israel (a Jewish State, flying a Jewish flag) unleashed hell on Lebanon for 34 straight days in July and August of 2006 (and for decades prior in its wars against Lebanon). Regardless of whether or not you feel Israel had a right to do that, you cannot deny that Lebanese civilians harbored, and continue to harbor, a very real resentment against the government of Israel—this Jewish state—for those actions and the devestation those actions caused.

Yet these very Lebanese, who are so quickly labeled as "blood thirsty terrorists" by Newt Gingrich and his army of xenophobic morons, were able to draw a distinction between the Jews "flying those planes" in July and August of 2006 working at the behest of the Israeli government, and the Jews whom are citizens of Lebanon who had no connection with those attacks.

Lebanon rebuilt that Ground Zero Synagogue for its Jews.

Not for Israel. Not for the world's Jewry. Not as a monument to mark a "Jewish victory" over Lebanon.

Lebanon rebuilt that Ground Zero Synagogue because its Jews lived in that neighborhood and they had every right to build a house of worship in a place they called home.

For crying out loud, Hassan Nassrallah and Hezbollah can even draw the distinction between a Lebanese Jew and an Israeli soldier who happens to be a Jew. So how is it that Americans can't distinguish between American Muslims who were victims of 9/11 and Saudi Muslims who were the perpetrators of 9/11?

Thank you Mr. Gingrich for allowing Hassan Nasrallah and Hezbollah to outclass you and the Republican Party (and you Democrats aren't too far behind--yes Harry Reid, I'm talking to you). When the former Republican Speaker of the House and the current Democratic Senate Majority Leader start sounding less tolerant and less reasonable than a "terrorist," we need to start sounding the alarm bells.

What a sad state of affairs for America

Congratulations...you only mentioned Israel 18 times in this particular piece on
a thread about the Mosque Cultural center in NY City!  ::)

Tyorne's Own:

I went to the Rasmussen site and I couldn't find the particular poll you're quoting. Also you don't have to be so snarky in replying. But I guess that comes from listening to the right-wing media commentators in this country. I'm surprised that you can't figure out why Liimbaugh, Beck, Hannity and O'Rielly spew what the they do. It's all about the "almighty dollar". If you think one of them really cares about what happens to this country, hey buddy, I gotta bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.!!!

Hey TO- in that rasmussen stuff what the hell is the political class and what is the ordinary voting public. It says a few links away that the political class is a undefined term in the surveys.
and you know me I get confused easily by undefined terms (teeing myself up for a good retort here)

So I saw this black guy in the bar last night. I mean I suppose he had a right to be there and all, but we were all mostly white, you'd think of his own free will he would just have went somewhere else.

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 26, 2010, 02:02:28 AM

QuoteObama seems willing to try and placate characters such as Palin, but he might be better off saying "Alright then – nothing Islamic near Ground Zero, but that principle applies to everything. So every Catholic Church within two blocks of a school is being shut down, as it would be grossly insensitive to allow an institution with such a record of child abuse to worship near its victims.

So you and J are obviously singing from the same liberal hymn book I see.... It was idiotic when he pedaled it (admittedly)
and hasn't improved much with your delivery of it ::)

Maybe you should read what I said again... I said that while I personally think it is idiotic, it is no more idiotic than objecting to the building of this mosque because of 9/11 (and so has everyone else who has made the same bleeding obvious point). But, once again, if I'm mistaken and these people are in some way guilty with regards to that atrocity, then please explain how.

Quote from: heganboy on August 26, 2010, 07:14:54 PM
Hey TO- in that rasmussen stuff what the hell is the political class and what is the ordinary voting public. It says a few links away that the political class is a undefined term in the surveys.
and you know me I get confused easily by undefined terms (teeing myself up for a good retort here)

It doesn't matter a f**k how many are against it. What matters is why. Anyone got a good argument why this thing should be opposed?

Quote from: redandblack4ever on August 26, 2010, 07:14:20 PM
Tyorne's Own:

I went to the Rasmussen site and I couldn't find the particular poll you're quoting. Also you don't have to be so snarky in replying. But I guess that comes from listening to the right-wing media commentators in this country. I'm surprised that you can't figure out why Liimbaugh, Beck, Hannity and O'Rielly spew what the they do. It's all about the "almighty dollar". If you think one of them really cares about what happens to this country, hey buddy, I gotta bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.!!!

Really cause HB obviously didn't have any trouble finding it..admit it, you've a stick up you a*s cause you didn't get the Fox News (yawn) link you and the others were expecting :P
If it was Keith overbite and the numbers were reversed you'd have no bother finding it ::)

QuoteAlso you don't have to be so snarky in replying. But

:D But.................................. Kettle, Pot, Black!!

Quote from: heganboy on August 26, 2010, 07:14:54 PM
Hey TO- in that rasmussen stuff what the hell is the political class and what is the ordinary voting public. It says a few links away that the political class is a undefined term in the surveys.
and you know me I get confused easily by undefined terms (teeing myself up for a good retort here)

Not sure HB.. I was merely asked to produce the goods which I did!

Quote from: J70 on August 27, 2010, 12:06:45 AM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 26, 2010, 02:02:28 AM

QuoteObama seems willing to try and placate characters such as Palin, but he might be better off saying "Alright then – nothing Islamic near Ground Zero, but that principle applies to everything. So every Catholic Church within two blocks of a school is being shut down, as it would be grossly insensitive to allow an institution with such a record of child abuse to worship near its victims.

So you and J are obviously singing from the same liberal hymn book I see.... It was idiotic when he pedaled it (admittedly)
and hasn't improved much with your delivery of it ::)

Maybe you should read what I said again... I said that while I personally think it is idiotic, it is no more idiotic than objecting to the building of this mosque because of 9/11 (and so has everyone else who has made the same bleeding obvious point). But, once again, if I'm mistaken and these people are in some way guilty with regards to that atrocity, then please explain how.

That's what I said...Dixey is every bit the eejit that you are for quoting that same hymn book, I'm not arguing with you :-\

What grade in school are you in, Tyrone's Own? I'd reckon you're about a middle schooler. Your pathetic answers to my questions are proof of it. Grow up and get a life, will ya FFS!!!

Quote from: redandblack4ever on August 27, 2010, 03:45:34 PM
What grade in school are you in, Tyrone's Own? I'd reckon you're about a middle schooler. Your pathetic answers to my questions are proof of it. Grow up and get a life, will ya FFS!!!

Atleast I can read :P ...and truth be told, the only reason
My answers are pathetic is because it wasn't what you were
expecting. You're just an angry old woman   ;D

lads and lasses (esp Mrsredandblack), this is a discussion forum. So DISCUSS

TO's views are as valid as anyone else's. I disagree with him more often than not but he reasons and shows his facts, and I for one respect that. And he's not the one starting the he said she said...

Burn, Witch, Burn!: America Rages Against Islam


by Keith Johnson



Islamophobia is sweeping the nation—and it couldn't have come at a better time.  Just when the American people were starting to become distracted with trivial issues like the potential stock market crash, the re-branding of the war in Iraq, and the ongoing environmental disaster in the Gulf—along comes a crisis of biblical proportions, that threatens to destroy the moral fiber of America itself, and deliver its Christian population into the diabolical hands of an Islamic dictatorship ruled under the precepts of Sharia law.

                Oh, foolish man.  What can you not be made to believe?
                                                       ~Adam Weishaupt~

By now, it should be quite obvious that the hysteria centered on the proposed construction of an Islamic cultural center—a full two blocks from Ground Zero—is nothing more than an engineered distraction, designed to take the focus away from serious geopolitical and domestic issues as we head into the November elections.

Late last year, we watched in horror as the Tea Party movement was infiltrated by certain personalities from the GOP establishment.  Glenn Beck, Dick Army, Rick Perry, Sarah Palin, and others of that same ilk—all dressed down to mingle with working class folks— and let them know that the Republican party shares their pain.  Before these clowns got involved, the focus of the Tea Party was on big government, compulsory health insurance and Wall Street bailouts.  But over a period of time—as these Johnny-Come-Latelies sunk their fingers deeper into the pie—they used their influence to diffuse the ire against Wall Street and redirect those energies to support the GOP war agenda.

Now we are starting to see large swaths of Tea Party factions taking up the military banner at their functions—complete with metrosexual cowboys singing war anthems in the background—and stirring up racial tensions the likes of which we have not witnessed since before the civil rights movement of the 1960's.

No longer is Wall Street feeling the hot pangs of public anger breathing down their necks.  These terrorists have been left to their own devices, with free reign to continue their raping and pillaging of the American dream.  Now, cab drivers wearing turbans have more to fear than the bankster gangster riding in their back seats.

From New York City to Southern California, large groups of paranoid warmongers gather outside Islamic places of worship to parrot the lies fed to them by the mainstream media.  Much of their ammunition comes straight out of a likely source:  FOX News.

On August 16, disgraced former congressman Newt Gingrich made an appearance on the morning program, FOX and Friends, and said, "Nazis don't have the right to put up a sign next to the Holocaust museum in Washington. We would never accept the Japanese putting up a site next to Pearl Harbor. There's no reason for us to accept a mosque next to the World Trade Center."  Is that right?  Well, assuming that this is a Christian nation, like so many people claim it to be, then I assume it would be wrong to construct a Christian church in Dresden or Hiroshima.  Oh, but I know you're going to tell me that those were not acts of terrorism.  You may not think so, but I'll bet there are hundreds of thousands of Germans and Japanese who would beg to differ.

Later that week, on the same program, host Brian Kilmeade asserted his fear that the Islamic Cultural Center in New York City would be the future site of a new "Hamburg Cell."  In case you didn't know, the "Hamburg Cell" was where three alleged hijackers reportedly cooked up the 911 plot.  Two of the three men were tried in Germany, but the cases were dropped when the U.S. failed to provide any incriminating evidence that linked them to the attacks.

Other FOX propagandists, like Dick Morris, claim that the center will be used to 'train and recruit' future terrorists.  "Shariah law mandates jihad" blurted Morris. "And it mandates terrorism and suicide bombing. So this is really a juridical center that is being established to study and promote and train and recruit Shariah law advocates, which will become terrorists. ... We're establishing literally a command center for terrorism right at the 9/11 site."  This kind of B.S. brings to mind that famous Arte Johnson line from 'Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In':  "Very interesting...but stupid!"

Recent evidence suggests just the opposite of Morris' line of thinking.  According to a recent New York Times article, "A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism. The study was conducted by professors with Duke's Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina. It disclosed that many mosque leaders had put significant effort into countering extremism by building youth programs, sponsoring antiviolence forums and scrutinizing teachers and texts."

But this won't stop the likes of Gingrich, Kilmeade and Morris from spreading their message of intolerance.  They have an agenda, and that agenda is to stir up a deep-seated hatred against the Muslim community in order to rally support for a war on Iran.  And they've been very effective.  Their rhetoric is being picked up and repeated by Islamophobes all across the nation.  For them, it's all about the fear of Shariah law, disrespect to 911 victims, and the paranoid assumption that all Mosques are staging grounds for future terrorist attacks.

In Murfreesboro, Tennessee—opponents of a proposed Mosque spray-painted the words "Not Welcome" on a sign that marked the construction site, and later tore it to shreds.  They also brought dogs to intimidate Muslims as they worshipped in the modest office space they've been using as a prayer room.  One man—sounding a lot like Newt Gingrich—told a CNN reporter that "In Islam, a mosque means 'We have conquered this country,'" And where are they? They're in the center of Tennessee. They're going to say, 'We have conquered Tennessee.'"

In Temecula, California—plans by the Islamic community to build a mosque on a four-acre parcel of land has sparked a similar protest.  Pastor Bill Rench, of Temecula Calvary Baptist Church, echoed Kilmeade and Morris when he stated, "There is a concern with all the rumors you hear about sleeper cells and all that. Are we supposed to be complacent just because these people say it's a religion of peace? Many others have said the same thing."

A website for a group calling itself 'We the People—Citizens in Action' called on their members to attend a rally in Temecula and to "bring your Bibles, flags, signs, dogs and singing voice."  At the event, demonstrators held up signs that read 'No Sharia Law' and 'Muslims Danced For Joy on 9/11.' Apparently they haven't learned that the "so-called" dancing Palestinians they're referring to were actually paid to perform in front of the camera with candy and cakes supplied to them by the Israel Ministry of Defense.  The whole thing was staged.

What was not staged were the five dancing Israelis arrested on 9/11, who were reported to police after being seen cheering and 'high-fiving' as they watched the towers come down.  They'd been shooting video of the disaster from a short distance away.  They were later released by police and deported back to Israel, where three of them admitted on Israeli TV that they were in New York City that day to "document the event." 

In Bridgeport, Connecticut—a dozen "so-called" Christian demonstrators angrily screamed, "Islam is a lie" and "Jesus hates Muslims" at worshippers of a local Mosque.  One demonstrator even confronted a group of children and called them "murderers."  Have these people even read the scriptures?  Where can Jesus be found to say that he hates Muslims?  Muslims weren't even around during the time Christ walked the Earth.  Islam began almost six hundred years after the death of Christ.  There is not even one biblical passage that eludes to Islam or mosques or Muslims. 

We haven't seen this level of ignorance and superstition since the Salem Witch Trials of the 1600's.  There are many parallels that be can drawn from that time and now. During that era of American history, the colonies suffered from severe enviromental and economic troubles.  Severe weather changes resulted in crop failures which devastated livestock and the ability for families to put food on the table.  What made matters worse was the influential and fervently religious Puritans, who were very active politically, and attributed all adversity to the wrath of God.  The economic woes, coupled by a belief that all bad things are a result of supernatural punishment for unrepentant sin, fostered a climate of suspicion that sent many in search of the source to their problems.  Someone had to take the blame and be held to answer for all the troubles they inflicted upon everyone else.  While the fanatically religious clung to their superstitions in pursuit of justice, many others took advantage of the hysteria and used it as an opportunity to eliminate bitter rivals and steal coveted and valuable pieces of property.

What we don't understand, we fear.  What we fear, we judge as evil.  What we judge as evil, we attempt to control.  And what we cannot control...we attack.

We see the same thing happening today.  As we fall deeper into our own economic crisis—aggravated by enviromental disasters and poor money policies—the ignorant masses are susceptible to clinging to a simple explanation for their troubles.  In this case, it is Islam.  They are the modern day witches, whose behavior is foreign and therefore a threat that must be exterminated.  Our modern day equivelent to the Puritans are those fervently religious and politically active Judeo-Christians who cling to a politicised perversion of Biblical scriptures.  They have been led to believe that allegiance to the state of Israel is critical to their salvation.  If Islam is a threat to Israel, then Islam is the enemy that must be defeated.  Then, of course, there are those who are simply taking advantage of the hysteria.  These are our politicians, who will send our children to die in these most unholy of wars, and clean up whatever spoils those wars have wrought.

Contrary to popular perception, none of the victims of the Salem Witch Trials were burned at the stake.  However, the victims of these latest witchhunts have not had it so easy.  Entire villages have burned to the ground in Afghanistan, white phosphorus has been dropped on Palestinian children in Gaza, and talks of a strike on Iran may very well place a mushroom cloud over Tehran in the not so distant future.  Here at home, violence has already begun to show its ugly face.  In New York City, a Muslim cab driver's throat was aledgedly slashed by an irate Islamophobe and several prayer rugs were urinated upon by an angry drunk shouting racial slurs.

This frightening trend is indeed a crisis—but to both Democrat and Republican candidates seeking office in November—this is a god send.  For the Republicans, the mosque controversey is a good prop, like the paper mache'mask that the "Wizard of Oz" lit on fire and waved around to scare Dorothy into taking on the Wicked Witch of the West.  For the Democrats, bringing attention to the frenzied hysteria of the reactionary right provides a good opportunity to lure back disgruntled dissenters, who have been suffering a bit of buyers remorse since Obama took office.

Just when the time was ripe for the people of this nation to unite in opposition to the established government, we are now beginning to see them part ways... and herded back into their respective corners.

Quote from: heganboy on August 27, 2010, 06:53:21 PM
lads and lasses (esp Mrsredandblack), this is a discussion forum. So DISCUSS

TO's views are as valid as anyone else's. I disagree with him more often than not but he reasons and shows his facts, and I for one respect that. And he's not the one starting the he said she said...

I haven't a problem with his views, have a look at his last 15-20 posts in this thread alone.  He has been rude and dismissive of every person he has replied to.  To be honest, I would enjoy discussion but I think that it's practically impossible with TO, not that he's on his own in that regard on this board

You might want to read the last sentence of HB's last post
again...I don't generally start the childish shite, just usually finish
it in my defense of being ambushed by the usual few,
your goodself included  ;)
Anyway you never did answer that question I asked you on Wed afternoon

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 27, 2010, 09:22:41 PM
You might want to read the last sentence of HB's last post
again

You might want to read my reply to him

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on August 27, 2010, 09:44:46 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 27, 2010, 09:22:41 PM
You might want to read the last sentence of HB's last post
again

You might want to read my reply to him

I did  ???... So the abuse I take here on a regular basis is alright with you but not my replies to it... Got it ::)
Eh.....ahem,  the answer to my question :-\

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 27, 2010, 03:16:34 AM

Quote from: J70 on August 27, 2010, 12:06:45 AM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 26, 2010, 02:02:28 AM

QuoteObama seems willing to try and placate characters such as Palin, but he might be better off saying "Alright then – nothing Islamic near Ground Zero, but that principle applies to everything. So every Catholic Church within two blocks of a school is being shut down, as it would be grossly insensitive to allow an institution with such a record of child abuse to worship near its victims.

So you and J are obviously singing from the same liberal hymn book I see.... It was idiotic when he pedaled it (admittedly)
and hasn't improved much with your delivery of it ::)

Maybe you should read what I said again... I said that while I personally think it is idiotic, it is no more idiotic than objecting to the building of this mosque because of 9/11 (and so has everyone else who has made the same bleeding obvious point). But, once again, if I'm mistaken and these people are in some way guilty with regards to that atrocity, then please explain how.

That's what I said...Dixey is every bit the eejit that you are for quoting that same hymn book, I'm not arguing with you :-\

I guess its safe to say that you don't think the mosque should be opposed on 9/11 or terrorism grounds then. If not, then why?

QuoteI guess its safe to say that you don't think the mosque should be opposed on 9/11 or terrorism grounds then. If not, then why?

No, I am opposed to it but the reason being is that if the people behind the locating and building of this thing were actually serious about
building bridges and mending relations this sure as hell was not the way to go about it.
It was a divisive, contentious decision, completely unnecessary in my view and it has absolutely nothing at all to do with
and goes well beyond the first Amendment rights IMHO.

Do you actually think they picked this site on purpose?

Charlie Brooker in the Guardian puts it way better than I ever could ;-)

Millions of Americans are furious about the 'Ground Zero mosque'. But it doesn't exist

Things seem awfully heated in America right now; so heated you could probably toast a marshmallow by jabbing it on a stick and holding it toward the Atlantic. Millions are hopping mad over the news that a bunch of triumphalist Muslim extremists are about to build a "victory mosque" slap bang in the middle of Ground Zero.
The planned "ultra-mosque" will be a staggering 5,600ft tall – more than five times higher than the tallest building on Earth – and will be capped with an immense dome of highly-polished solid gold, carefully positioned to bounce sunlight directly toward the pavement, where it will blind pedestrians and fry small dogs. The main structure will be delimited by 600 minarets, each shaped like an upraised middle finger, and housing a powerful amplifier: when synchronised, their combined sonic might will be capable of relaying the muezzin's call to prayer at such deafening volume, it will be clearly audible in the Afghan mountains, where thousands of terrorists are poised to celebrate by running around with scarves over their faces, firing AK-47s into the sky and yelling whatever the foreign word for "victory" is.
I'm exaggerating. But I'm only exaggerating a tad more than some of the professional exaggerators who initially raised objections to the "Ground Zero mosque". They keep calling it the "Ground Zero mosque", incidentally, because it's a catchy title that paints a powerful image – specifically, the image of a mosque at Ground Zero.
When I heard about it – in passing, in a soundbite – I figured it was a US example of the sort of inanely confrontational fantasy scheme Anjem Choudary might issue a press release about if he fancied winding up the tabloids for the 900th time this year. I was wrong. The "Ground Zero mosque" is a genuine proposal, but it's slightly less provocative than its critics' nickname makes it sound. For one thing, it's not at Ground Zero. Also, it isn't a mosque.
Wait, it gets duller. It's not being built by extremists either. Cordoba House, as it's known, is a proposed Islamic cultural centre, which, in addition to a prayer room, will include a basketball court, restaurant, and swimming pool. Its aim is to improve inter-faith relations. It'll probably also have comfy chairs and people who smile at you when you walk in, the monsters.
To get to the Cordoba Centre from Ground Zero, you'd have to walk in the opposite direction for two blocks, before turning a corner and walking a bit more. The journey should take roughly two minutes, or possibly slightly longer if you're heading an angry mob who can't hear your directions over the sound of their own enraged bellowing.
Perhaps spatial reality functions differently on the other side of the Atlantic, but here in London, something that is "two minutes' walk and round a corner" from something else isn't actually "in" the same place at all. I once had a poo in a pub about two minutes' walk from Buckingham Palace. I was not subsequently arrested and charged with crapping directly onto the Queen's pillow. That's how "distance" works in Britain. It's also how distance works in America, of course, but some people are currently pretending it doesn't, for daft political ends.
New York being a densely populated city, there are lots of other buildings and businesses within two blocks of Ground Zero, including a McDonald's and a Burger King, neither of which has yet been accused of serving milkshakes and fries on hallowed ground. Regardless, for the opponents of Cordoba House, two blocks is too close, period. Frustratingly, they haven't produced a map pinpointing precisely how close is OK.
That's literally all I'd ask them in an interview. I'd stand there pointing at a map of the city. Would it be offensive here? What about here? Or how about way over there? And when they finally picked a suitable spot, I'd ask them to draw it on the map, sketching out roughly how big it should be, and how many windows it's allowed to have. Then I'd hand them a colour swatch and ask them to decide on a colour for the lobby carpet. And the conversation would continue in this vein until everyone in the room was in tears. Myself included.
That hasn't happened. Instead, 70% of Americans are opposed to the "Ground Zero mosque", doubtless in many cases because they've been led to believe it literally is a mosque at Ground Zero. And if not . . . well, it must be something significant. Otherwise why would all these pundits be so angry about it? And why would anyone in the media listen to them with a straight face?
According to a recent poll, one in five Americans believes Barack Obama is a Muslim, even though he isn't. A quarter of those who believe he's a Muslim also claimed he talks about his faith too much. Americans aren't dumb. Clearly these particular Americans have either gone insane or been seriously misled. Where are they getting their information?
Sixty per cent said they learned it from the media. Which means it's time for the media to give up.
Seriously, broadcasters, journalists: just give up now. Because either you're making things worse, or no one's paying attention anyway. May as well knock back a few Jagermeisters, unplug the autocue, and just sit there dumbly repeating whichever reality-warping meme the far right wants to go viral this week. What's that? Obama is Gargamel and he's killing all the Smurfs? Sod it. Whatever. Roll titles.

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2010, 02:40:08 AM

QuoteI guess its safe to say that you don't think the mosque should be opposed on 9/11 or terrorism grounds then. If not, then why?

No, I am opposed to it but the reason being is that if the people behind the locating and building of this thing were actually serious about
building bridges and mending relations this sure as hell was not the way to go about it.
It was a divisive, contentious decision, completely unnecessary in my view and it has absolutely nothing at all to do with
and goes well beyond the first Amendment rights IMHO.

Why would the people building this mosque have to build bridges at all. Are you saying that every Muslim in the world has got to build bridges because muslims from Saudi crashed planes into Manhattan!!! Maybe if you think for a minute you would realise how stupid that is. Do christians in Indonesia have to build bridges with protestants in Ulster for the IRA bombing of Enniskillen, no Indonesian christain church should be allowed to be built within a certain distance of the center of Enniskillen I suppose? Do you just lap up all this bull from Fox and their correspondants or is it possible you think for yourself (Sarah Palin is now on Fox giving her well thought out political opinions on a regular basis, if people thought that station could not go any lower think again). What we are seeing in the US now is a bit like in Germany before WWII but thankfully on a lower level. Republicans and right wing bible bashers are trying to whip up hate to build a support base to get back into power. We saw the same with Paisley so you would think that someone supposedly from Tyrone would have the brains to see what is happening. Are you from Tyrone, TO or are you an Irish American with a distant relation from Ireland?

(http://www.salon.com/ent/comics/this_modern_world/2010/08/24/this_modern_world/story.jpg)

TO, it seems to me your idea of abuse is when someone disagrees with you and says so

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 28, 2010, 10:42:22 AM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2010, 02:40:08 AM

QuoteI guess its safe to say that you don't think the mosque should be opposed on 9/11 or terrorism grounds then. If not, then why?

No, I am opposed to it but the reason being is that if the people behind the locating and building of this thing were actually serious about
building bridges and mending relations this sure as hell was not the way to go about it.
It was a divisive, contentious decision, completely unnecessary in my view and it has absolutely nothing at all to do with
and goes well beyond the first Amendment rights IMHO.

Why would the people building this mosque have to build bridges at all. Are you saying that every Muslim in the world has got to build bridges because muslims from Saudi crashed planes into Manhattan!!! Maybe if you think for a minute you would realise how stupid that is. Do christians in Indonesia have to build bridges with protestants in Ulster for the IRA bombing of Enniskillen, no Indonesian christain church should be allowed to be built within a certain distance of the center of Enniskillen I suppose? Do you just lap up all this bull from Fox and their correspondants or is it possible you think for yourself (Sarah Palin is now on Fox giving her well thought out political opinions on a regular basis, if people thought that station could not go any lower think again). What we are seeing in the US now is a bit like in Germany before WWII but thankfully on a lower level. Republicans and right wing bible bashers are trying to whip up hate to build a support base to get back into power. We saw the same with Paisley so you would think that someone supposedly from Tyrone would have the brains to see what is happening. Are you from Tyrone, TO or are you an Irish American with a distant relation from Ireland?

Perfectly put.

Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 28, 2010, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 28, 2010, 10:42:22 AM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2010, 02:40:08 AM

QuoteI guess its safe to say that you don't think the mosque should be opposed on 9/11 or terrorism grounds then. If not, then why?

No, I am opposed to it but the reason being is that if the people behind the locating and building of this thing were actually serious about
building bridges and mending relations this sure as hell was not the way to go about it.
It was a divisive, contentious decision, completely unnecessary in my view and it has absolutely nothing at all to do with
and goes well beyond the first Amendment rights IMHO.

Why would the people building this mosque have to build bridges at all. Are you saying that every Muslim in the world has got to build bridges because muslims from Saudi crashed planes into Manhattan!!! Maybe if you think for a minute you would realise how stupid that is. Do christians in Indonesia have to build bridges with protestants in Ulster for the IRA bombing of Enniskillen, no Indonesian christain church should be allowed to be built within a certain distance of the center of Enniskillen I suppose? Do you just lap up all this bull from Fox and their correspondants or is it possible you think for yourself (Sarah Palin is now on Fox giving her well thought out political opinions on a regular basis, if people thought that station could not go any lower think again). What we are seeing in the US now is a bit like in Germany before WWII but thankfully on a lower level. Republicans and right wing bible bashers are trying to whip up hate to build a support base to get back into power. We saw the same with Paisley so you would think that someone supposedly from Tyrone would have the brains to see what is happening. Are you from Tyrone, TO or are you an Irish American with a distant relation from Ireland?

Perfectly put.

The answer to that can even be found in Midmans post above;
Its aim is to improve inter-faith relations.
Should I post links to the Imam's very own selling of that very point both here and
his American tax payer funded trip around the Middle East  ::)
This taken directly from his Wiki page;
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (Arabic: فيصل عبد الرؤوف‎, born in 1948, in Kuwait) is an Arab-American Sufi[1] imam, author, and activist whose stated goal is to improve relations between the Muslim world and the West.[/b][2]
So I'll ask again.... was this honestly the best way forward in an attempt to improve relations between Muslims and the West?

Quote from: Carmen Stateside on August 28, 2010, 09:41:09 AM
Do you actually think they picked this site on purpose?

Hard to say but sure since picking it, they are now fully aware of it's implications :-\

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2010, 03:21:59 PM
So I'll ask again.... was this honestly the best way forward in an attempt to improve relations between Muslims and the West?

One could just as easily turn this around. How is it helping relations between Muslims and the West to fight this proposal tooth-and-nail? You have to laugh at the idea that the three thousand-odd who died in the WTC at the hands of a few nutters mean Islam has to build bridges with the West while the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died at the hands of the United States and her allies do not require any atonement

Quote from: Carmen Stateside on August 28, 2010, 09:41:09 AM
Do you actually think they picked this site on purpose?

Who Tyrone's Own and Stew?

Catholics, Muslims, and the Mosque Controversy
John T. McGreevy and R. Scott Appleby

(http://184.73.187.38/media/img/blogimages/nativists_png_470x438_q85.jpg)

"The American River Ganges," Thomas Nast's 1875 cartoon showing Catholic priests as crocodiles attacking the United States to devour the nation's school children


As historians of American Catholicism, and Catholics, we are concerned to see the revival of a strain of nativism in the current controversy over the establishment of an Islamic center some blocks from Ground Zero in lower Manhattan.

For much of the nineteenth century Catholics in America were the unassimilated, sometimes violent "religious other." Often they did not speak English or attend public schools. Some of their religious women—nuns—wore distinctive clothing. Their religious practices and beliefs—from rosaries to transubstantiation—seemed to many Americans superstitious nonsense.

Most worrisome, Catholics seemed insufficiently grateful for their ability to build churches and worship in a democracy, rights sometimes denied to Protestants and Jews in Catholic countries, notably Italy. In the 1840s and 1850s these anxieties about Catholicism in American society turned violent, including mob attacks on priests and churches as well as the formation of a major political party, the American Party, dedicated to combating Catholic influence. This led to novel claims that the US constitution demanded an absolute separation of church and state—claims that stem not from Thomas Jefferson and George Washington but from nineteenth-century politicians, ministers, and editors worried that adherents of a hierarchical Catholicism might destroy the hard-won achievements of American democracy. In 1875, a decade after accepting General Lee's surrender at Appomattox, President Ulysses S. Grant publicly warned that Catholicism might prove as divisive in American society as the Confederacy.

Like many American Muslims today, many American Catholics squirmed when their foreign-born religious leaders offered belligerent or tone-deaf pronouncements on the modern world. New York's own Bishop John Hughes thundered in 1850 that the Church's mission was to convert "the officers of the navy and the Marines, commander of the Army, the legislatures, the Senate, the Cabinet, the president and all." The Syllabus of Errors, promulgated by Pope Pius IX in 1864 denied that the Church had any duty to reconcile itself with "progress, liberalism, and modern civilization."

But a Catholic president was elected in 1960, and today Catholics hold more seats in Congress than any other religious body. The Vice-President and Speaker of the House are Catholics, as are six of the nine Supreme Court justices.

It took Catholics more than a full century to attain their current level of acceptance and influence, and they made their share of mistakes along the way, occasionally by trying too hard to prove their patriotic bona fides. (Exhibit A: Senator Joseph McCarthy, whose name is now, paradoxically, a synonym for "un-American activities.") But they earned their place, over the course of many decades, by serving (and dying for) their country, and building their own churches, schools and health care systems alongside public counterparts, which they also frequented and supported with their taxes.

Meanwhile, American Catholics helped transform parts of their own church that seemed at odds with the American freedoms they had come to cherish. An American Jesuit, John Courtney Murray, was decisive in shaping Dignitatis Humanae (1965)—the Declaration on Religious Liberty, in which the Second Vatican Council endorsed religious freedom for all people. In this sense, the American acceptance and encouragement of Catholic parishes and schools once seen as threatening, reshaped an international religious institution. The late Harvard political scientist Samuel Huntington once commented on how ironic it was that the papacy had become the greatest global champion of religious freedom in the final quarter of the twentieth century.

Historical comparisons are bound to be inexact; but American Muslims, like American Catholics, are now building their own religious and cultural institutions, and they are seeking guidance from a wide variety of religious sources—some few from jihadists, most from accommodationists.

Feisal Abdul Rauf, the imam at the center of the New York controversy, is an accommodationist. He claims, correctly, that the vast majority of the nation's Muslims abhor al-Qaeda. Moreover, Rauf seeks to demonstrate that Muslims are no less Americans than are their Christian and Jewish counterparts. They, too, pray for (and were among) the victims of the September 11, 2001 terrorists and beg God's forgiveness for atrocities committed in his name.

Is it imprudent for Rauf and his supporters to locate the proposed Islamic center so close to the site of terrible violence against Americans committed in the name of Islam? In fact the fault lies less with Rauf than with a debased effort to whip up partisan fervor around the issue. Must Muslims unequivocally reject all forms of terrorism—especially those Muslims who wish to promote full Muslim participation in American society? Of course. But if the Catholic experience in the United States holds any lesson it is that becoming American also means asserting one's constitutional rights, fully and forcefully, even if that assertion is occasionally taken to be insulting. The genius of the American experiment in religious liberty is precisely this long-term confidence that equal rights for all religious groups builds the loyalty every democratic society needs. Certainly American Catholics learned that lesson long ago.

R. Scott Appleby is the John M. Regan, Jr. Director of the Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies at Notre Dame. John T. McGreevy is the I.A. O'Shaughnessy Dean of the College of Arts and Letters at the University of Notre Dame

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2010, 03:21:59 PM

Quote from: Arthur_Friend on August 28, 2010, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 28, 2010, 10:42:22 AM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2010, 02:40:08 AM

QuoteI guess its safe to say that you don't think the mosque should be opposed on 9/11 or terrorism grounds then. If not, then why?

No, I am opposed to it but the reason being is that if the people behind the locating and building of this thing were actually serious about
building bridges and mending relations this sure as hell was not the way to go about it.
It was a divisive, contentious decision, completely unnecessary in my view and it has absolutely nothing at all to do with
and goes well beyond the first Amendment rights IMHO.

Why would the people building this mosque have to build bridges at all. Are you saying that every Muslim in the world has got to build bridges because muslims from Saudi crashed planes into Manhattan!!! Maybe if you think for a minute you would realise how stupid that is. Do christians in Indonesia have to build bridges with protestants in Ulster for the IRA bombing of Enniskillen, no Indonesian christain church should be allowed to be built within a certain distance of the center of Enniskillen I suppose? Do you just lap up all this bull from Fox and their correspondants or is it possible you think for yourself (Sarah Palin is now on Fox giving her well thought out political opinions on a regular basis, if people thought that station could not go any lower think again). What we are seeing in the US now is a bit like in Germany before WWII but thankfully on a lower level. Republicans and right wing bible bashers are trying to whip up hate to build a support base to get back into power. We saw the same with Paisley so you would think that someone supposedly from Tyrone would have the brains to see what is happening. Are you from Tyrone, TO or are you an Irish American with a distant relation from Ireland?

Perfectly put.

The answer to that can even be found in Midmans post above;
Its aim is to improve inter-faith relations.
Should I post links to the Imam's very own selling of that very point both here and
his American tax payer funded trip around the Middle East  ::)
This taken directly from his Wiki page;
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (Arabic: فيصل عبد الرؤوف‎, born in 1948, in Kuwait) is an Arab-American Sufi[1] imam, author, and activist whose stated goal is to improve relations between the Muslim world and the West.[/b][2]
So I'll ask again.... was this honestly the best way forward in an attempt to improve relations between Muslims and the West?

I'll accept that the cultural centre is meant to be a means of improving relations between muslims and the west. However, by objecting to this building being near "ground zero" you are implying that all muslims have something to apologise for with regards to 911 which is just totally ignorant. What religion was the oklahoma bomber, what army was he a member of? The fences being mended by a islamic cultural center are the fences put up by US foreign policy, US propaganda and mostly the US gutter media headed by Fox.  I note you didn't comment on the parallels i drew between this and Paisley, you think its totally different or did you never even hear of paisley before.

Quote from: heganboy on August 27, 2010, 06:53:21 PM
lads and lasses (esp Mrsredandblack), this is a discussion forum. So DISCUSS

TO's views are as valid as anyone else's. I disagree with him more often than not but he reasons and shows his facts, and I for one respect that. And he's not the one starting the he said she said...

Mrs red and whack and her clampett hubby are the same clowns that protested the norn iron team when they played in Chicago, they are screaming liberals that suddenly got conservative after an Irish team showed up to train at a GAA club in the city at, by the way, the invitation of the local GAA club.

TO might be a conservative but ffs, some eejits on here do nothing but lazily throw fox out there, Oreilly out there and Hannity etc out there as if that is the only place the man gets his opinions from.

Screaming liberals and ultra right conservatives make me sick to my stomach so I doubt very much those two down hewers would make my Christmas card list. :P

Quote from: stew on August 29, 2010, 04:16:09 PM

Quote from: heganboy on August 27, 2010, 06:53:21 PM
lads and lasses (esp Mrsredandblack), this is a discussion forum. So DISCUSS

TO's views are as valid as anyone else's. I disagree with him more often than not but he reasons and shows his facts, and I for one respect that. And he's not the one starting the he said she said...

Mrs red and whack and her clampett hubby are the same clowns that protested the norn iron team when they played in Chicago, they are screaming liberals that suddenly got conservative after an Irish team showed up to train at a GAA club in the city at, by the way, the invitation of the local GAA club.

TO might be a conservative but ffs, some eejits on here do nothing but lazily throw fox out there, Oreilly out there and Hannity etc out there as if that is the only place the man gets his opinions from.

Screaming liberals and ultra right conservatives make me sick to my stomach so I doubt very much those two down hewers would make my Christmas card list. :P

Ach Aye but sure their heads are so far up their own holes they're unable to catch the irony that even though I'll go out
of my way in not posting a Fox news link to support something or another, I'm lambasted for it But ironically, totally fine
for them to post links and articles ad nauseam from the most far far left commentators, journalists, politicians and haters of every kind willing to
share a negative slant on the US ::) No one notices..really!  :D
But then again now that I think about it...I very rarely do post links to support my views, don't need to, unlike some ;)

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 25, 2010, 10:12:51 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on August 25, 2010, 09:48:42 PM
I didn't accuse you of lying.  I said no-one takes a single word you say as gospel.  There is quite a difference

Really  ??? What would that be?

Answer the question for once !

What is you need me to patronise you about TO?  I have already stated my opinion, it's not my fault if you can't comprehend it  ::)

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on August 29, 2010, 07:26:36 PM
What is you need me to patronise you about TO?  I have already stated my opinion, it's not my fault if you can't comprehend it  ::)

What's to comprehend ??? if any "single word" as you put it is not gospel but it's also not a lie then what is it?
I'm pretty sure there's more than me here would like to hear you explain that one  :-\

In simple English then TO, that even you can surely understand, people who read your so-called opinion on here by and large disregard every word you say because you come across as being pro a certain political viewpoint and as a result of that you seek to put anyone down who disagrees with you.  All this at the same time as you coming across as being 100% certain that you are the only person on the board who could have a legitimate political viewpoint

Don't ask again.

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2010, 02:40:08 AM

QuoteI guess its safe to say that you don't think the mosque should be opposed on 9/11 or terrorism grounds then. If not, then why?

No, I am opposed to it but the reason being is that if the people behind the locating and building of this thing were actually serious about
building bridges and mending relations this sure as hell was not the way to go about it.
It was a divisive, contentious decision, completely unnecessary in my view and it has absolutely nothing at all to do with
and goes well beyond the first Amendment rights IMHO.

Well at least that is a point that can be argued somewhat sensibly, unlike most of the other rubbish coming from the opposition or stuff about sympathy agendas etc. However, that logic still imposes a collective responsibility for 9/11 on the shoulders of all muslims. That they should "show sensitivity" by moving the location is to say that their very presence a short distance from Ground Zero is offensive, purely because they happen to worship the same god and not because of anything they've done.  Once again, how is that different to opposing the location of a catholic church close to a school? Both rationales assign collective guilt, with much less justification in this case. The ones with the problem and who you are demanding should be appeased are those who insist on tarring all muslims with the one brush. That is the only way their argument makes sense, even if their argument is merely about sensitivity and building bridges. "We've got a bunch of people here who don't like you, even if you've done nothing to them, so you'd better make nice and tread very carefully so you don't make their unjustified dislike for you even worse!"

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on August 29, 2010, 09:59:05 PM
people who read your so-called opinion on here by and large disregard every word you say because you come across as being pro a certain political viewpoint

Fcuk such a typical elitist attitude to have on a discussion board... so just because I don't toe the progressive liberal line here I should be disregarded  :o
then being the hypocrite that ye are you come out with this on the very next line;

QuoteAll this at the same time as you coming across as being 100% certain that you are the only person on the board who could have a legitimate political viewpoint

You sir, are a complete clown :o

By GWYNNE DYER | ARAB NEWS
Muslims, Ground Zero and US midterm polls
THE great journalist H.L. Mencken once said that nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of the American public — but I may be about to prove him wrong.

Three or four months ago, I started betting various friends that the Democrats would lose control of both houses of the US Congress in the midterm elections this November. I was way ahead of the opinion curve, so I got lots of takers. But now, when the general opinion has shifted in that direction, I begin to think I was wrong. And it all has to do with the "Ground Zero mosque."

If you have been paying attention and are fully sentient, you will know that it is not actually a mosque. If the sponsors can raise the money (which remains to be seen), it would contain a prayer room, but also a restaurant, a 500-seat theater, basketball courts and a swimming pool that would be open to all. It would not have a minaret, but there would be a memorial to the 3,000 people (including 300 Muslims) who died in the 9/11 attacks.

And it is not, of course, at Ground Zero. It is two blocks up and around the corner, invisible from where the World Trade Center once stood. Not that there's any reason for it to hide around the corner: There's nothing wrong with an Islamic cultural center. It should also be pointed out that the Pussy Cat Lounge, an upmarket strip club, is closer to the site and not invisible at all.

So should we ask whether those on the right wing of the Republican Party who started this business about a mosque at Ground Zero intended to exploit the latent Islamophobia of the American public? You might as well ask if the pope is a Catholic. This is a "wedge issue," deliberately concocted to drive the dimmer elements of the Republican Party into supporting the right-wing's other positions as well.

I hear you protesting that the Republican Party doesn't have a left-wing any more, so how can it have a right-wing? But everything is relative in politics, and the real contest this autumn is not being held in November. Most congressional districts have been gerrymandered to the point where they are safe seats for one party or the other, so the real contest is in the primary (which chooses the party's candidate) in any given district.

Senate seats cannot be gerrymandered in the same way, but there are also bitter primary struggles between "left" and "right" Republicans in many of them. Republican Sen. John McCain, the former presidential candidate, survived the Arizona primary on Aug. 24 only by shifting sharply right on many issues, including climate change and immigration. Other moderate Republican senators are doing the same, but they may not be so lucky.

The "Ground Zero mosque" campaign was begun by players like Fox News and Mark Williams, organizer of the Tea Party Express. But the campaign works for the hard right because a large proportion of the US population is anti-Muslim.

Exactly how large nobody knows, but we may safely assume that the 24 percent of Americans who believe that Barack Obama is a Muslim are not thinking: "Good. When Americans elected a black, Muslim president, we showed how tolerant the country is." They are thinking: "Oh my God, there's a black Muslim terrorist in the White House. America is doomed."

Let us assume, therefore, that the proportion of Americans who fear and hate Muslims (in most cases without ever having met one) is somewhere between that 24 percent and the 61 percent, according to a recent Time Magazine poll, who oppose the "Ground Zero mosque."

How excited should we get about this? Not very. You would probably get a similar figure if you asked people in almost any Muslim country whether they see contemporary Americans as a new generation of "crusaders". They aren't, any more than Muslims are terrorists, but the Muslim Middle East has a rather one-sided view of the Crusades.

After five centuries when the Middle East and North Africa had been mostly Christian, Islam conquered the whole region in the 7th and 8th centuries. The Crusades, three centuries later, were a counter-attack aimed at recovering some of the lost territory for Christendom, neither more nor less reprehensible than the original Islamic conquest. It's just history, and nobody has clean hands. But I digress.

Why am I going to lose my bets on the outcome of the midterm elections? Because the primaries attract at most ten percent of the potential voters, and they tend to be the ideologically committed ones. Hard-right candidates can win that audience over — but when 50 or 60 percent of American voters come out in the real election, the extremists tend to lose in the critical districts where the outcome might go either way.

The Democrats will keep their Senate majority. They might even keep the House.

In Green Bay they are opposing a Mosque that the local Muslims want to build, now that fcuker would be over two thousand miles from ground zero yet these clampetts dont want Muslims to have a place or worship at all and they are too ignorant and stupid to know that they are trampling all over their own constitution which is hypocritical to say the least.

I have just been in Noo York proper for the first time and this Mosque is not at ground zero at all, rather a few blocks away.

I will say this, If Christians tried to build a Chuch in most if not all Muslim Countries they would be at best jailed and at wrst beheaded but many on here focus on the Americans and all of their failings and God forbid anyone say a bad word about what is going on in the Muslim world.

Quote from: stew on August 31, 2010, 01:07:43 PM
In Green Bay they are opposing a Mosque that the local Muslims want to build, now that fcuker would be over two thousand miles from ground zero yet these clampetts dont want Muslims to have a place or worship at all and they are too ignorant and stupid to know that they are trampling all over their own constitution which is hypocritical to say the least.

I have just been in Noo York proper for the first time and this Mosque is not at ground zero at all, rather a few blocks away.

I will say this, If Christians tried to build a Chuch in most if not all Muslim Countries they would be at best jailed and at wrst beheaded but many on here focus on the Americans and all of their failings and God forbid anyone say a bad word about what is going on in the Muslim world.

Have you any evidence of Muslim countries jailing or beheading christians for trying to build a church?

Came across this.. Gets a bit wishy washey at the end but the first 10 min was entertaining..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yPRl8vYXBw&feature=topvideos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yPRl8vYXBw&feature=topvideos)

Quote from: give her dixie on August 31, 2010, 02:15:30 PM

Quote from: stew on August 31, 2010, 01:07:43 PM
In Green Bay they are opposing a Mosque that the local Muslims want to build, now that fcuker would be over two thousand miles from ground zero yet these clampetts dont want Muslims to have a place or worship at all and they are too ignorant and stupid to know that they are trampling all over their own constitution which is hypocritical to say the least.

I have just been in Noo York proper for the first time and this Mosque is not at ground zero at all, rather a few blocks away.

I will say this, If Christians tried to build a Chuch in most if not all Muslim Countries they would be at best jailed and at wrst beheaded but many on here focus on the Americans and all of their failings and God forbid anyone say a bad word about what is going on in the Muslim world.

Have you any evidence of Muslim countries jailing or beheading christians for trying to build a church?

Have you any evidence of 95% of the propaganda you're pedaling here on a daily basis, bar some socialist reporter's trumped up imagination ?

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 31, 2010, 03:39:22 PM

Quote from: give her dixie on August 31, 2010, 02:15:30 PM

Quote from: stew on August 31, 2010, 01:07:43 PM
In Green Bay they are opposing a Mosque that the local Muslims want to build, now that fcuker would be over two thousand miles from ground zero yet these clampetts dont want Muslims to have a place or worship at all and they are too ignorant and stupid to know that they are trampling all over their own constitution which is hypocritical to say the least.

I have just been in Noo York proper for the first time and this Mosque is not at ground zero at all, rather a few blocks away.

I will say this, If Christians tried to build a Chuch in most if not all Muslim Countries they would be at best jailed and at wrst beheaded but many on here focus on the Americans and all of their failings and God forbid anyone say a bad word about what is going on in the Muslim world.

Have you any evidence of Muslim countries jailing or beheading christians for trying to build a church?

Have you any evidence of 95% of the propaganda you're pedaling here on a daily basis, bar some socialist reporter's trumped up imagination ?

8)

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 31, 2010, 03:39:22 PM

Quote from: give her dixie on August 31, 2010, 02:15:30 PM

Quote from: stew on August 31, 2010, 01:07:43 PM
In Green Bay they are opposing a Mosque that the local Muslims want to build, now that fcuker would be over two thousand miles from ground zero yet these clampetts dont want Muslims to have a place or worship at all and they are too ignorant and stupid to know that they are trampling all over their own constitution which is hypocritical to say the least.

I have just been in Noo York proper for the first time and this Mosque is not at ground zero at all, rather a few blocks away.

I will say this, If Christians tried to build a Chuch in most if not all Muslim Countries they would be at best jailed and at wrst beheaded but many on here focus on the Americans and all of their failings and God forbid anyone say a bad word about what is going on in the Muslim world.

Have you any evidence of Muslim countries jailing or beheading christians for trying to build a church?

Have you any evidence of 95% of the propaganda you're pedaling here on a daily basis, bar some socialist reporter's trumped up imagination ?

I believe Dixie has been to some majority Muslim countries - have you?

It is a fair point to ask of stew, can you give evidence to back up the point that you would be jailed or beheaded for opening a catholic church in most if not all muslim countries? That is a major exaggeration at best i'm thinking. Even if it were true it is hardly an excuse for people in the "enlightened" west to go round being equally as ignorant.

This ethnic breakdown surprised me


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Muslim_American_Ethnicity_Pew_Forum.png)

Where is that for Hedley?

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on August 31, 2010, 04:51:51 PM
This ethnic breakdown surprised me


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Muslim_American_Ethnicity_Pew_Forum.png)

This is the ethnic breakdown of Muslims in America.

Gotcha now, no real surprises there though to be honest  :)

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on August 31, 2010, 04:51:51 PM
This ethnic breakdown surprised me


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Muslim_American_Ethnicity_Pew_Forum.png)

I have no opinion, but in the interests of fairness; just throwing the pie chart up there is misleading at best Hedley.

From the same wikipedia article, referencing the percentage breakdown in your pie chart:

"A survey of ethnic comprehension by the Pew Forum survey in 2007 showed that 37% respondents viewed themselves of white descent (mainly of Arab and South Asian origin), 24% were Black (mainly African American), 20% Asian (mainly South Asian origin), 15% other race (includes mixed Arabs or Asians) and 4% were of Hispanic descent.[70]"

Taking the words with the pie chart removes the "surprise" if you ask me.

Have to agree with you there...didn't read all the article :-[

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 31, 2010, 04:22:56 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 31, 2010, 03:39:22 PM

Quote from: give her dixie on August 31, 2010, 02:15:30 PM

Quote from: stew on August 31, 2010, 01:07:43 PM
In Green Bay they are opposing a Mosque that the local Muslims want to build, now that fcuker would be over two thousand miles from ground zero yet these clampetts dont want Muslims to have a place or worship at all and they are too ignorant and stupid to know that they are trampling all over their own constitution which is hypocritical to say the least.

I have just been in Noo York proper for the first time and this Mosque is not at ground zero at all, rather a few blocks away.

I will say this, If Christians tried to build a Chuch in most if not all Muslim Countries they would be at best jailed and at wrst beheaded but many on here focus on the Americans and all of their failings and God forbid anyone say a bad word about what is going on in the Muslim world.

Have you any evidence of Muslim countries jailing or beheading christians for trying to build a church?

Have you any evidence of 95% of the propaganda you're pedaling here on a daily basis, bar some socialist reporter's trumped up imagination ?

I believe Dixie has been to some majority Muslim countries - have you?

It is a fair point to ask of stew, can you give evidence to back up the point that you would be jailed or beheaded for opening a catholic church in most if not all muslim countries? That is a major exaggeration at best i'm thinking. Even if it were true it is hardly an excuse for people in the "enlightened" west to go round being equally as ignorant.

Yes, that is another of the ridiculous non-arguments being presented by the opposition to the mosque.

Quote from: stew on August 31, 2010, 01:07:43 PM
In Green Bay they are opposing a Mosque that the local Muslims want to build, now that fcuker would be over two thousand miles from ground zero yet these clampetts dont want Muslims to have a place or worship at all and they are too ignorant and stupid to know that they are trampling all over their own constitution which is hypocritical to say the least.

I have just been in Noo York proper for the first time and this Mosque is not at ground zero at all, rather a few blocks away.

And on a street where virtually no visitors to the WTC will venture. Or at least would not have before this ridiculous display of national hysteria.

On what grounds are the opposition in Green Bay opposing the mosque there?

Quote from: J70 on August 31, 2010, 11:37:45 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 31, 2010, 04:22:56 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 31, 2010, 03:39:22 PM

Quote from: give her dixie on August 31, 2010, 02:15:30 PM

Quote from: stew on August 31, 2010, 01:07:43 PM
In Green Bay they are opposing a Mosque that the local Muslims want to build, now that fcuker would be over two thousand miles from ground zero yet these clampetts dont want Muslims to have a place or worship at all and they are too ignorant and stupid to know that they are trampling all over their own constitution which is hypocritical to say the least.

I have just been in Noo York proper for the first time and this Mosque is not at ground zero at all, rather a few blocks away.

I will say this, If Christians tried to build a Chuch in most if not all Muslim Countries they would be at best jailed and at wrst beheaded but many on here focus on the Americans and all of their failings and God forbid anyone say a bad word about what is going on in the Muslim world.

Have you any evidence of Muslim countries jailing or beheading christians for trying to build a church?

Have you any evidence of 95% of the propaganda you're pedaling here on a daily basis, bar some socialist reporter's trumped up imagination ?

I believe Dixie has been to some majority Muslim countries - have you?

It is a fair point to ask of stew, can you give evidence to back up the point that you would be jailed or beheaded for opening a catholic church in most if not all muslim countries? That is a major exaggeration at best i'm thinking. Even if it were true it is hardly an excuse for people in the "enlightened" west to go round being equally as ignorant.

Yes, that is another of the ridiculous non-arguments being presented by the opposition to the mosque.

Thought It wasn't a Mosque ??? wasn't that an exaggerated term drummed up by the racist right  :-\

QuoteAnd on a street where virtually no visitors to the WTC will venture.

Visitors... ach right so it stops with a lock of auld visitors  ::)

Is it any wonder the majority of American's are defensive of the Mosque when the Imam leading this insult
refuses to denounce Hamas and label them what they are..Terrorists, Yes the same terrorists that murdered
those 4 innocent Israelis today one of them a pregnant woman >:(

Below is the "Yahoo" link;
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100831/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_talks

and a quote from it for the neutrals here in case there's any confusion of the type of scum we're dealing with
and that's being heavily defended here left and right by the bleeding hearts  :'(

"About 3,000 people joined a rally in Gaza to celebrate the attack. Hamas military wing spokesman
Abu Obeida  was among them and told The Associated Press:
"The Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron."

But it's just racism and bigotry on Americas part right ::)

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 01, 2010, 01:01:35 AM

Quote from: J70 on August 31, 2010, 11:37:45 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 31, 2010, 04:22:56 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 31, 2010, 03:39:22 PM

Quote from: give her dixie on August 31, 2010, 02:15:30 PM

Quote from: stew on August 31, 2010, 01:07:43 PM
In Green Bay they are opposing a Mosque that the local Muslims want to build, now that fcuker would be over two thousand miles from ground zero yet these clampetts dont want Muslims to have a place or worship at all and they are too ignorant and stupid to know that they are trampling all over their own constitution which is hypocritical to say the least.

I have just been in Noo York proper for the first time and this Mosque is not at ground zero at all, rather a few blocks away.

I will say this, If Christians tried to build a Chuch in most if not all Muslim Countries they would be at best jailed and at wrst beheaded but many on here focus on the Americans and all of their failings and God forbid anyone say a bad word about what is going on in the Muslim world.

Have you any evidence of Muslim countries jailing or beheading christians for trying to build a church?

Have you any evidence of 95% of the propaganda you're pedaling here on a daily basis, bar some socialist reporter's trumped up imagination ?

I believe Dixie has been to some majority Muslim countries - have you?

It is a fair point to ask of stew, can you give evidence to back up the point that you would be jailed or beheaded for opening a catholic church in most if not all muslim countries? That is a major exaggeration at best i'm thinking. Even if it were true it is hardly an excuse for people in the "enlightened" west to go round being equally as ignorant.

Yes, that is another of the ridiculous non-arguments being presented by the opposition to the mosque.

Thought It wasn't a Mosque ??? wasn't that an exaggerated term drummed up by the racist right  :-\

If that's all you have to be snide about or try to score points, then do us both a favour and stop wasting our time with the fake victimhood. Its the mosque part of it that is apparently so offensive; its being called a mosque by most people and in most discussions; for the purposes of this discussion, its simple to call it the mosque. Everyone knows what we're talking about.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 01, 2010, 01:01:35 AM

QuoteAnd on a street where virtually no visitors to the WTC will venture.

Visitors... ach right so it stops with a lock of auld visitors  ::)

What stops?

I'm referring to the fact that this is now a national controversy. If it hadn't been drummed up into an issue by the right, most people would not even know it was there (assuming its ever built). The reason being that it is on a side street north of the WTC, off the busiest part of the downtown-WTC area. You wouldn't know that from the general media coverage, as Stew noted in the original post to which I was replying. Is that difficult to comprehend?

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 01, 2010, 01:27:17 AM
Is it any wonder the majority of American's are defensive of the Mosque when the Imam leading this insult
refuses to denounce Hamas and label them what they are..Terrorists, Yes the same terrorists that murdered
those 4 innocent Israelis today one of them a pregnant woman >:(

Below is the "Yahoo" link;
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100831/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_talks

and a quote from it for the neutrals here in case there's any confusion of the type of scum we're dealing with
and that's being heavily defended here left and right by the bleeding hearts  :'(

"About 3,000 people joined a rally in Gaza to celebrate the attack. Hamas military wing spokesman
Abu Obeida  was among them and told The Associated Press:
"The Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron."

But it's just racism and bigotry on Americas part right ::)

If the iman involved in this does in fact turn out to be a supporter of Hamas, then that is a legitimate issue. But that hasn't been a factor in this discussion to date, now has it? So far its been all about monuments to 9/11 and Nazis and, at least to the more sane among the opposition, sensitivity.

And just so we're clear and you don't get to twist anything to suit your persecution agenda, I have nowhere defended anyone who would support terrorism. I have condemned those who oppose this mosque for ridiculous reasons and asked for legitimate reasons why it should be opposed. If there are legitimate reasons to oppose it i.e. the muslims actually involved in the mosque do turn out to be supporters of terrorism, then that is a different situation. If there are links between them and terrorism, then please, show us them. I'll have no problem denouncing them and withdrawing my support if it is warranted.

QuoteIf the iman involved in this does in fact turn out to be a supporter of Hamas, then that is a legitimate issue. But that hasn't been a factor in this discussion to date, now has it?

Maybe obviously not over at MSNBC but it's a huge deal other places...of course you'd have to remove your head from you rectum to notice, now wouldn't you?

QuoteI have condemned those who oppose this mosque for ridiculous reasons and asked for legitimate reasons why it should be opposed

I have already given legitimate reasons for the opposition to it!..should I apologize for the fact that you disagree?
The fact that Hamas are in full support of it should be enough to any logical thinking person ::)

QuoteAnd just so we're clear and you don't get to twist anything to suit your persecution agenda,

Neither do you and neither will you !

Quotethe muslims actually involved in the mosque do turn out to be supporters of terrorism,

It would be a bit too late then wouldn't it...I wonder would the wonderful bastion for left thinking and pandering
that is France do things a little differently if they had it over again with regards to their and other regions in Europe
recent found problems with the peaceful religion  :o Wake up FFS!
* Striking also that you have no remarks, good, bad or indifferent to Hamas' celebration of a heroic operation  >:(
but yet it's me that's blinkered and biased ::)

for someone who claims they dislike when people bring Israel into ever thread, you sure have a weird way of showing it.....apart from when it suits your argument.

I am not a Hamas supporter, But i do suppport the rights of the Palestinian people. These rights denied by the Israelis. When Israel says it is only defending itslef,  the whole world swallows it, it sickens me. What they are defending are illegal settlement, build on land grabs of Palestinian land. This is not a defensive action but aggression. Where is the right of the Palestinians to defend themselves. As i said i am not a Hamas support and i certain do not support their military actions but they have a political wing and they have moderates. The world missed a massive opportunity to engage with these moderates after Hamas won the elections. If there was not this macho "We don't talk to terrorist" shite, then maybe alot of the problems could be solved. What if everyone refused to talk to Sinn Fein or the IRA? The way moderates win out is if the popualtion can be given a better life, then those that turn to violance have no support network and become the sidelined.

I am sure if the Imam was asked about this incident he wouldn't agree with it.

Back to the topic, So now from your posts - it is the Imams opinions of Hamas and the insensitive nature of building a "mosque" so close to ground zero that seem to be your main objections (from previous posts) Point 1 - A. Sharon was in the whitehouse, he was once wanted by the americans as a terrorist but then welcomed and championed by the US, so apparently not all terrorists are bad and with time can actuallly become good. Maybe the Imam is just way ahead of the pack...... point 2 - Collective guilt being placed on one religion for the actions of a few is a dangerous precedent and how people cannot see this is frightening.

Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on September 01, 2010, 04:24:38 AM
for someone who claims they dislike when people bring Israel into ever thread, you sure have a weird way of showing it.....each when it suits your argument.

I am not a Hamas supporter, But i do suppport the rights of the Palestinian people. These rights denied by the Israelis. When Israel says it is only defending itslef,  the whole world swallows it, it sickens me. What they are defending are illegal settlement build on land grabs of Palestinian land. This is not a defensive action but agression. Where is the right of the Palestinians to defend themselves. As i said i am not a Hamas support and i certain do not support their military actions but they have a political wing and they have moderates. The world missed a massive opportunity to engage with these moderates after Hamas won the elections. If there was not this macho "We don't talk to terrorist" shite, then maybe alot of the problems could be solved. What if everyone refused to talk to Sinn Fein or the IRA? The way moderates win out is if the popualtion can be given a better life, then those that turn to violance have no support network and become the sidelined.

I am sure if the Imam was asked about this incident he wouldn't agree with it.

Back to the topic, So now from your posts - it is the Imams opinions of Hamas and the insensitive nature of building a "mosque" so close to ground zero that seem to be your main objects (from previous posts) Point 1 - A. Sharon was in the whitehouse, he was once wanted by the americans as a terrorist but then welcomed and championed by the US, so apparently not all terrorists are bad and with time can actuallly become good. Maybe the Imam is just way ahead of the pack...... point 2 - Collective guilt being placed on one religion for the actions of a few is a dangerous precedent and how people cannot see this is frightening.

I'll get to the rest when I have time as I'm heading out here for a bit, but quickly to this last part in bold; it's too bad the Catholic church weren't offered such a wide birth a while back during the scandal especially from the enlightened ones amongst here on the board *shakes head*

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 01, 2010, 03:34:50 AM

QuoteIf the iman involved in this does in fact turn out to be a supporter of Hamas, then that is a legitimate issue. But that hasn't been a factor in this discussion to date, now has it?

Maybe obviously not over at MSNBC but it's a huge deal other places...of course you'd have to remove your head from you rectum to notice, now wouldn't you?

For someone who is forever whinging about people projecting their dislike of Fox News onto him, you really don't mind doing likewise yourself, now do you. I watch MSNBC about as often as I watch Fox, which is just about never.

If Hamas had been such a serious issue in this discussion, you've certainly been very slow to play that card. Is there or has there been any serious evidence that this iman supports them? If there is now, was there before? Please post it if so.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 01, 2010, 03:34:50 AM

QuoteI have condemned those who oppose this mosque for ridiculous reasons and asked for legitimate reasons why it should be opposed

I have already given legitimate reasons for the opposition to it!..should I apologize for the fact that you disagree?
The fact that Hamas are in full support of it should be enough to any logical thinking person ::)

Yes, that's great logic, that is. By that rationale, the fact that every white racist and christian bigot in America is against it should be enough for you. And you can apply such stupid logic to just about anything, anywhere.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 01, 2010, 03:34:50 AM

Quotethe muslims actually involved in the mosque do turn out to be supporters of terrorism,

It would be a bit too late then wouldn't it...I wonder would the wonderful bastion for left thinking and pandering
that is France do things a little differently if they had it over again with regards to their and other regions in Europe
recent found problems with the peaceful religion  :o Wake up FFS!

So get the retaliation in first, is that it? Because they're muslim, they automatically should be treated with contempt and suspicion? They're automatically terrorist sympathizers?

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 01, 2010, 03:34:50 AM
* Striking also that you have no remarks, good, bad or indifferent to Hamas' celebration of a heroic operation  >:(
but yet it's me that's blinkered and biased ::)

Only striking to you, presumably so you can score cheap points or project your contemptuous and cartoonish view of someone like me. As I said on the Saudi thread, some things are so self-evident that they require no comment or discussion. But just in case... Hamas are murderous scum. Good enough for you? ::)  ::)

I think this link sums it up for me.....

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/

Thought this had to be a Monty Python sketch ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11223457

Obviously the ME doesn't have all the Mad Mullahs :D :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSQmqzU1cnk

Could you imagine the outcry if there were a few radicals holding a "burn a bible day"......................

Quote from: give her dixie on September 08, 2010, 04:39:12 PM
Could you imagine the outcry if there were a few radicals holding a "burn a bible day"......................

They don't need to...the few radicals just build victory Mosques instead!

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 08, 2010, 04:50:42 PM

Quote from: give her dixie on September 08, 2010, 04:39:12 PM
Could you imagine the outcry if there were a few radicals holding a "burn a bible day"......................

They don't need to...the few radicals just build victory Mosques instead!

You'd be better to stick with the more moderate 'sensitivity' defense of ypur position.

Although you've still to present evidence of ties to terrorism, beyond the appalling sin of belonging to a different sect of the same religion as some terrorists. Which simply is not a defensible position as to why they shouldn't get to build the mosque, any more than your presumed catholicism links you to these eejits.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 08, 2010, 04:50:42 PM

Quote from: give her dixie on September 08, 2010, 04:39:12 PM
Could you imagine the outcry if there were a few radicals holding a "burn a bible day"......................

They don't need to...the few radicals just build victory Mosques instead!

Would there be many of them?
I take it you think this "Pastor" is correct :-[

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on September 08, 2010, 04:00:40 PM
Thought this had to be a Monty Python sketch ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11223457

This is a non-story really. 50 crackpots want to burn books and it is worldwide news? Only if the news agenda is to incite hatred and encourage war.

This reminds me of the news images of Palestinians burning the US flag immediately after 911. Those images were file images from years earlier but the propaganda opportunity was too great to miss by the likes of Murdock and co.

This crackpot is the best recruiting agent the Taliban have ever had....reminds me of Paisley :o

Quote from: muppet on September 08, 2010, 06:33:45 PM

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on September 08, 2010, 04:00:40 PM
Thought this had to be a Monty Python sketch ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11223457

This is a non-story really. 50 crackpots want to burn books and it is worldwide news? Only if the news agenda is to incite hatred and encourage war.

This reminds me of the news images of Palestinians burning the US flag immediately after 911. Those images were file images from years earlier but the propaganda opportunity was too great to miss by the likes of Murdock and co.

Really Muppet?...you seem very sure of yourself as usual  :-\ and correct me here if I'm wrong but wasn't it CNN who broke the story..what has that to do with Murdock ???
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 08, 2010, 10:02:51 PM

Quote from: muppet on September 08, 2010, 06:33:45 PM

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on September 08, 2010, 04:00:40 PM
Thought this had to be a Monty Python sketch ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11223457

This is a non-story really. 50 crackpots want to burn books and it is worldwide news? Only if the news agenda is to incite hatred and encourage war.

This reminds me of the news images of Palestinians burning the US flag immediately after 911. Those images were file images from years earlier but the propaganda opportunity was too great to miss by the likes of Murdock and co.

Really Muppet?...you seem very sure of yourself as usual  :-\ and correct me here if I'm wrong but wasn't it CNN who broke the story..what has that to do with Murdock ???
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp

What did Palestinians doing anything have to do with a group of Saudis attacking the World Trade Centre? All the stations showed Palestinians celebrating, which is likely to have happened given who bankrolls the F-16s etc., but the images of the flags burning were archives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WptpG_yVUI&p=63CFF565AB1EB411&playnext=1&index=116 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WptpG_yVUI&p=63CFF565AB1EB411&playnext=1&index=116)

Note the flag burning, which was the most inflammatory, no longer appears in the reports.

So much was made out of the flag burning lies, while so little was said about the 5 Israeli's, some of whom were Mossad agents, who were caught videoing the events on 911 as they happened. Their excuse was:
"We were there to document the event".................................

can you explain that a little more dixie?  who caught them and how?   I never heard of this before. Lived in nyc at the time and heard a lot of talk but nothing about that.

 :o :o :o


http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html?q=fiveisraelis.html

QuoteThis is a non-story really. 50 crackpots want to burn books and it is worldwide news? Only if the news agenda is to incite hatred and encourage war.

My thoughts exactly

Quote from: Declan on September 09, 2010, 08:12:56 AM

QuoteThis is a non-story really. 50 crackpots want to burn books and it is worldwide news? Only if the news agenda is to incite hatred and encourage war.

My thoughts exactly

+1

Can't believe the amount of coverage this got in the Irish media, RTE in particular.

Quote from: Zapatista on September 09, 2010, 08:14:53 AM

Quote from: Declan on September 09, 2010, 08:12:56 AM

QuoteThis is a non-story really. 50 crackpots want to burn books and it is worldwide news? Only if the news agenda is to incite hatred and encourage war.

My thoughts exactly

+1

Can't believe the amount of coverage this got in the Irish media, RTE in particular.

This is a bizarre story. A group of 50 nutters want to burn the Koran and the whole world needs to know about it? Just as bizarre was Today FMs news report which stated "A Taliban spokesman has condemned the burning....". Every church leader in the US and most politicans condemned the burning which is surely of more interest than what some un-named hardline Muslim in the Taliban has to say on the matter.

Quote from: Declan on September 09, 2010, 08:12:56 AM

QuoteThis is a non-story really. 50 crackpots want to burn books and it is worldwide news? Only if the news agenda is to incite hatred and encourage war.

My thoughts exactly

Heaven forbid  ::) ::) ::) ::)

Its easy to say that its only "50 nutters" but I'd wager that they have the silent support of many imbeciles.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 08, 2010, 04:50:42 PM

Quote from: give her dixie on September 08, 2010, 04:39:12 PM
Could you imagine the outcry if there were a few radicals holding a "burn a bible day"......................

They don't need to...the few radicals just build victory Mosques instead!

Seriously retarded.

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on September 09, 2010, 08:06:56 AM
:o :o :o


http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html?q=fiveisraelis.html

This is f**king unbelievable, now the hated israelis did it, you people are fcuked in the head.

I blame the soup dragon for it, I mean it makes perfect sense. :o

Quote from: stew on September 09, 2010, 02:55:33 PM

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on September 09, 2010, 08:06:56 AM
:o :o :o


http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html?q=fiveisraelis.html

This is f**king unbelievable, now the hated israelis did it, you people are fcuked in the head.

I blame the soup dragon for it, I mean it makes perfect sense. :o

It must be true, sure they have a web site and all. Why would go to the trouble of creating a site, administrating it etc.... just to push your own agenda? Surely thats what sports discussion forums are for ;)

Is this Jim Corr's site?

Quote from: give her dixie on September 08, 2010, 04:39:12 PM
Could you imagine the outcry if there were a few radicals holding a "burn a bible day"......................

"The U.S. Embassy in London said Washington is "deeply concerned about all deliberate attempts to offend members of any religious or ethnic group" and condemned such acts as "unrepresentative of American values." While the embassy said it believes firmly in freedom of religion and freedom of expression, "we reaffirm our position that the deliberate destruction of any holy book is an abhorrent act."


U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the Quran burning would be a "disrespectful, disgraceful act."


Former Republican vice presidential candidate and Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin urged Jones on Wednesday to halt his plans, saying the burning "will feed the fire of caustic rhetoric and appear as nothing more than mean-spirited religious intolerance. Don't feed that fire."


The U.S. Embassy in Pakistan condemned it as "disrespectful, intolerant and divisive," in a statement on Wednesday. "We are deeply concerned about all deliberate attempts to offend members of any religious or ethnic group," said Stephen Engelken, the second-ranking diplomat at the embassy.

The U.S. Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, on Tuesday issued a statement saying the U.S. government "in no way condones such acts of disrespect against the religion of Islam, and is deeply concerned about deliberate attempts to offend members of religious or ethnic groups." It said it condemned the "offensive initiative" by the Florida church.

The U.S. ambassador to Iraq, James Jeffrey, issued a joint statement with Lloyd Austin, the commanding general of U.S. forces in Iraq, to condemn the act.

In an interview with ABC television, Mr Obama said he hoped Mr Jones "understands that what he's proposing to do is completely contrary to our values as Americans, that this country has been built on the notion of freedom and religious tolerance".


Sorry to rain on your parade dixie.

Quote from: magpie seanie on September 09, 2010, 12:58:25 PM
Its easy to say that its only "50 nutters" but I'd wager that they have the silent support of many imbeciles.

Seanie - they probably have a few alright - but what needs to me remembered is that many of the folks in the southern states of aint the brightest of folks. I would say that outside of the stereotypical hillbilly imbecile demographic - this movement to burn the Quoran has zero support at all.

Yes, but there are quite a few of the "stereotypical hillbilly imbecile demographic" and they all get to vote come election time the same as everyone else.

I'm a bit annoyed with your previous post Puck as there's a quote from Sarah Palin in it that I cannot disagree with.  ;D

That did cross my mind as I put her quote in there. I was pleasantly surprised that she got it right this time too.

Quote from: magpie seanie on September 09, 2010, 05:52:10 PM
I'm a bit annoyed with your previous post Puck as there's a quote from Sarah Palin in it that I cannot disagree with.  ;D

Don't worry, she gets a decent dig in at the mosque/ community centre in the full quote.

QuoteBook burning is antithetical to American ideals. People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation – much like building a mosque at Ground Zero.

I would hope that Pastor Terry Jones and his supporters will consider the ramifications of their planned book-burning event. It will feed the fire of caustic rhetoric and appear as nothing more than mean-spirited religious intolerance. Don't feed that fire. If your ultimate point is to prove that the Christian teachings of mercy, justice, freedom, and equality provide the foundation on which our country stands, then your tactic to prove this point is totally counter-productive.

Our nation was founded in part by those fleeing religious persecution. Freedom of religion is integral to our charters of liberty. We don't need to agree with each other on theological matters, but tolerating each other without unnecessarily provoking strife is how we ensure a civil society. In this as in all things, we should remember the Golden Rule. Isn't that what the Ground Zero mosque debate has been about?

- Sarah Palin

Maybe I need to read that for a 4th or 5th time - but after three reads I still can't agree with your assertion that Sarah Palin is having a dig at anyone in that post AFS? I think her comments on this matter make sense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC4N5wkp2Ug (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC4N5wkp2Ug)

Strange there's no mention yet today of the Imam..(ye know the one that's out there
at our expense building relations and educating us on peace and tolerance)
he was on CNN last night threatening and inciting retribution for us if the Mosque doesn't go ahead on the proposed location as it will be deemed an insult to the Muslim world!!
Peaceful religion me hole....what'll it be next ::)
Wake to Fcuk up people :o

Quote from: Puckoon on September 09, 2010, 07:51:41 PM
Maybe I need to read that for a 4th or 5th time - but after three reads I still can't agree with your assertion that Sarah Palin is having a dig at anyone in that post AFS?

Really? 'in the first line:

QuoteBook burning is antithetical to American ideals. People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation – much like building a mosque at Ground Zero.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 08:12:27 PM
he was on CNN last night threatening and inciting retribution for us if the Mosque doesn't go ahead on the proposed location as it will be deemed an insult to the Muslim world!!

He said nothing of the sort. Thankfully people don't have to take your word as gospel on this one.

Imam: Handling of Islamic center plan a matter of national security (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/08/imam.lkl/?iref=obinsite#fbid=M0RdxFh8bG9&wom=false)

Quote from: AFS on September 09, 2010, 08:25:24 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on September 09, 2010, 07:51:41 PM
Maybe I need to read that for a 4th or 5th time - but after three reads I still can't agree with your assertion that Sarah Palin is having a dig at anyone in that post AFS?

Really? 'in the first line:

QuoteBook burning is antithetical to American ideals. People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation – much like building a mosque at Ground Zero.

I have no idea how I missed that. Sorry.

Quote from: deiseach on September 09, 2010, 08:31:31 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 08:12:27 PM
he was on CNN last night threatening and inciting retribution for us if the Mosque doesn't go ahead on the proposed location as it will be deemed an insult to the Muslim world!!

He said nothing of the sort. Thankfully people don't have to take your word as gospel on this one.

Imam: Handling of Islamic center plan a matter of national security (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/08/imam.lkl/?iref=obinsite#fbid=M0RdxFh8bG9&wom=false)

+1. TO I watched the same broadcast you did - and while the Imam used strong words to describe what could happen - in no way would anyone other than the most hardline take his words as threat and incitement.

Quote from: deiseach on September 09, 2010, 08:31:31 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 08:12:27 PM
he was on CNN last night threatening and inciting retribution for us if the Mosque doesn't go ahead on the proposed location as it will be deemed an insult to the Muslim world!!

He said nothing of the sort. Thankfully people don't have to take your word as gospel on this one.

Imam: Handling of Islamic center plan a matter of national security (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/08/imam.lkl/?iref=obinsite#fbid=M0RdxFh8bG9&wom=false)

Busted again TO, what a pathetic poster you are.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 08:12:27 PM
Strange there's no mention yet today of the Imam..(ye know the one that's out there
at our expense building relations and educating us on peace and tolerance)
he was on CNN last night threatening and inciting retribution for us if the Mosque doesn't go ahead on the proposed location as it will be deemed an insult to the Muslim world!!
Peaceful religion me hole....what'll it be next ::)
Wake to Fcuk up people :o

And Christianity is I suppose?  :D :D :D  Dear oh dear.  :D

Quote from: deiseach on September 09, 2010, 08:31:31 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 08:12:27 PM
he was on CNN last night threatening and inciting retribution for us if the Mosque doesn't go ahead on the proposed location as it will be deemed an insult to the Muslim world!!

He said nothing of the sort. Thankfully people don't have to take your word as gospel on this one.

Imam: Handling of Islamic center plan a matter of national security (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/08/imam.lkl/?iref=obinsite#fbid=M0RdxFh8bG9&wom=false)

Lipstick And Purfume....I've Come To Expect Nothing Less ::)
As Ive Said Before Here But None Of Ye Had The Balls To Touch
it; Its Too Bad The Catholic Church Wasn't Given As Much Latitude
During The Abuse Scandal.
The Self Loathing Anti Christianity On Here Boggles The Mind :o

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 09:42:02 PM

Quote from: deiseach on September 09, 2010, 08:31:31 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 08:12:27 PM
he was on CNN last night threatening and inciting retribution for us if the Mosque doesn't go ahead on the proposed location as it will be deemed an insult to the Muslim world!!

He said nothing of the sort. Thankfully people don't have to take your word as gospel on this one.

Imam: Handling of Islamic center plan a matter of national security (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/08/imam.lkl/?iref=obinsite#fbid=M0RdxFh8bG9&wom=false)

Lipstick And Purfume....I've Come To Expect Nothing Less ::)
As Ive Said Before Here But None Of Ye Had The Balls To Touch
it; Its Too Bad The Catholic Church Wasn't Given As Much Latitude
During The Abuse Scandal.
The Self Loathing Anti Christianity On Here Boggles The Mind :o

TO - I watched the same broadcast - there was no inciting of racial hatred - or threats.

Instead of a bunch of smileys - tell me in no uncertain terms how I am wrong, if I am wrong.

Please. One sensible post.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 09:42:02 PM

Quote from: deiseach on September 09, 2010, 08:31:31 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 08:12:27 PM
he was on CNN last night threatening and inciting retribution for us if the Mosque doesn't go ahead on the proposed location as it will be deemed an insult to the Muslim world!!

He said nothing of the sort. Thankfully people don't have to take your word as gospel on this one.

Imam: Handling of Islamic center plan a matter of national security (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/08/imam.lkl/?iref=obinsite#fbid=M0RdxFh8bG9&wom=false)

Lipstick And Purfume....I've Come To Expect Nothing Less ::)
As Ive Said Before Here But None Of Ye Had The Balls To Touch
it; Its Too Bad The Catholic Church Wasn't Given As Much Latitude
During The Abuse Scandal.
The Self Loathing Anti Christianity On Here Boggles The Mind :o

Speak out against those of your own religion who do wrong and you are a self-loather for sure........I'm sure I've heard that before somewhere...what was it again....self-loathing Hindu, Self-loathing Sikh, no ....Oh well, I'm sure it'll come to me  :D :D :D

No mention either I see of the "peaceful out reach" to christians this morning in Russia in the name of allah  :-X

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 09:42:02 PM
Lipstick And Purfume....I've Come To Expect Nothing Less ::)
As Ive Said Before Here But None Of Ye Had The Balls To Touch
it; Its Too Bad The Catholic Church Wasn't Given As Much Latitude
During The Abuse Scandal.
The Self Loathing Anti Christianity On Here Boggles The Mind :o

I understand the comment about 'self loathing' and will only say that I'll put my contribution to a church against yours any day of the week. As for the rest of it, to paraphrase Lisa Simpson, I know those words, but that post doesn't make sense.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 09:55:26 PM
No mention either I see of the "peaceful out reach" to christians this morning in Russia in the name of allah  :-X

I give up. You never engage with anything I say. I can only take so many non sequiturs.

It wouldn't be the first time the simpsons were quoted on here...
Maybe ye should turn off the tv and get out some.
When do we start comparing the size of our manhood then...grow up FFS
The arrogance really is something here

Quote from: deiseach on September 09, 2010, 10:02:21 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 09:55:26 PM
No mention either I see of the "peaceful out reach" to christians this morning in Russia in the name of allah  :-X

I give up. You never engage with anything I say. I can only take so many non sequiturs.

That's it...? So these bastards really can do no wrong in the minds of the washed here, just dont let it be the other way around...got it now! ::)

A U.S. fundamentalist Christian pastor on Thursday called off his plan to burn copies of the Koran on Saturday.

Terry Jones, who heads the tiny, little-known Dove World Outreach Centre church based in the Florida university town of Gainesville, said an agreement had been reached with Muslim leaders to move the controversial location of a planned Islamic cultural centre and mosque in New York.

It would be moved away from the site of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.

Quote from: orangeman on September 09, 2010, 10:30:25 PM
A U.S. fundamentalist Christian pastor on Thursday called off his plan to burn copies of the Koran on Saturday.

Terry Jones, who heads the tiny, little-known Dove World Outreach Centre church based in the Florida university town of Gainesville, said an agreement had been reached with Muslim leaders to move the controversial location of a planned Islamic cultural centre and mosque in New York.

It would be moved away from the site of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.

I don't believe he ever actually intended going through with it... just to tie a bunch of thongs
in a knot, knowing that the media would run with it...pretty genius :D

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 10:44:36 PM

Quote from: orangeman on September 09, 2010, 10:30:25 PM
A U.S. fundamentalist Christian pastor on Thursday called off his plan to burn copies of the Koran on Saturday.

Terry Jones, who heads the tiny, little-known Dove World Outreach Centre church based in the Florida university town of Gainesville, said an agreement had been reached with Muslim leaders to move the controversial location of a planned Islamic cultural centre and mosque in New York.

It would be moved away from the site of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.

I don't believe he ever actually intended going through with it... just to tie a bunch of thongs
in a knot, knowing that the media would run with it...pretty genius :D

Why do you believe that he never actually intended to go through with it? Do you know him personally?

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 09:42:02 PM

Quote from: deiseach on September 09, 2010, 08:31:31 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 08:12:27 PM
he was on CNN last night threatening and inciting retribution for us if the Mosque doesn't go ahead on the proposed location as it will be deemed an insult to the Muslim world!!

He said nothing of the sort. Thankfully people don't have to take your word as gospel on this one.

Imam: Handling of Islamic center plan a matter of national security (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/08/imam.lkl/?iref=obinsite#fbid=M0RdxFh8bG9&wom=false)

Lipstick And Purfume....I've Come To Expect Nothing Less ::)
As Ive Said Before Here But None Of Ye Had The Balls To Touch
it; Its Too Bad The Catholic Church Wasn't Given As Much Latitude
During The Abuse Scandal.
The Self Loathing Anti Christianity On Here Boggles The Mind :o

Ok, I'll bite...
Why should the catholic church deserve any latitude during the abuse scandal. It is an institution whose staff, including members at high management levels, conspired to cover up and facilitated the sexual abuse of children. The catholic church deserves everything it got and those individuals who collaborated should be facing criminal charges.

Now where are we falling down by comparison with regard to this mosque? Does this sufi brand of Islam have any connection, real or philosophical, to the 9/11 or any other terrorists? Are there any institutional structures within this religion which would bear any responsibility for terrorism or rhetoric fomenting terrorism on the part of its imans, as the catholic hierarchy does for the child abuse? Are there any imans from this sect who have been preaching terrorist jihad? If so, do they have any connection to the proposed mosque? And if not, then what is the connection between these muslims or the Park51 mosque with terrorism?

Its looking more and more like you regard all muslims, by default, as terrorist sympathizers. If that is not the case, then, in the absence of evidence of terrorist links or sympathies, why should these people not build their mosque? If you're going to come back with the sensitivity argument, why should they be sensitive to people who are blaming them for something for which they bear no responsibility? If you have evidence of terrorist links, then, once again, please present them!

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 09, 2010, 10:44:36 PM

Quote from: orangeman on September 09, 2010, 10:30:25 PM
A U.S. fundamentalist Christian pastor on Thursday called off his plan to burn copies of the Koran on Saturday.

Terry Jones, who heads the tiny, little-known Dove World Outreach Centre church based in the Florida university town of Gainesville, said an agreement had been reached with Muslim leaders to move the controversial location of a planned Islamic cultural centre and mosque in New York.

It would be moved away from the site of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.

I don't believe he ever actually intended going through with it... just to tie a bunch of thongs
in a knot, knowing that the media would run with it...pretty genius :D

Certainly not the media's finest hour... once again! But whatever about them trying to drum this idiot (who is fully within his rights to burn whatever the hell he pleases!) up into a major story, the bigger fools are the likes of Obama weighing in on this. And all the muslims who would be offended by a nothing idiot like Jones. Just like all the catholics, led by the moronic Bill Donoghue in the US, who get their knickers in a twist anytime someone says anything even remotely disrespectful about catholicism.

Quote from: orangeman on September 09, 2010, 10:30:25 PM
A U.S. fundamentalist Christian pastor on Thursday called off his plan to burn copies of the Koran on Saturday.

Typical 'fundamentalist' fcukwit: I would have thought 'Turn the Other Cheek' was somewhat basic Christian Bible!

Not very fundamental at all, well not the the 'funda'* part at least.

* Unless that would be to fund a mosque somewhere other than close to Ground Zero.

Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims

August 30, 2010 | ISSUE 46•35

(http://o.onionstatic.com/images/articles/article/17990/Man-Already-large.jpg)
Gentries made a conscious decision to stop learning anything new about the Muslim faith on May 22, 2005.


SALINA, KS—Local man Scott Gentries told reporters Wednesday that his deliberately limited grasp of Islamic history and culture was still more than sufficient to shape his views of the entire Muslim world.

Gentries, 48, said he had absolutely no interest in exposing himself to further knowledge of Islamic civilization or putting his sweeping opinions into a broader context of any kind, and confirmed he was "perfectly happy" to make a handful of emotionally charged words the basis of his mistrust toward all members of the world's second-largest religion.

"I learned all that really matters about the Muslim faith on 9/11," Gentries said in reference to the terrorist attacks on the United States undertaken by 19 of Islam's approximately 1.6 billion practitioners. "What more do I need to know to stigmatize Muslims everywhere as inherently violent radicals?"

"And now they want to build a mosque at Ground Zero," continued Gentries, eliminating any distinction between the 9/11 hijackers and Muslims in general. "No, I won't examine the accuracy of that statement, but yes, I will allow myself to be outraged by it and use it as evidence of these people's universal callousness toward Americans who lost loved ones when the Twin Towers fell."

"Even though I am not one of those people," he added.

When told that the proposed "Ground Zero mosque" is actually a community center two blocks north of the site that would include, in addition to a public prayer space, a 500-seat auditorium, a restaurant, and athletic facilities, Gentries shook his head and said, "I know all I'm going to let myself know."

Gentries explained that it "didn't take long" to find out as much about the tenets of Islam as he needed to. He said he knew Muslims stoned their women for committing adultery, trained for terrorist attacks at fundamentalist madrassas, and believed in jihad, which Gentries described as the thing they used to justify killing infidels.

"All Muslims are at war with America, and I will resist any attempt to challenge that assertion with potentially illuminating facts," said Gentries, who threatened to leave the room if presented with the number of Muslims who live peacefully in the United States, serve in the country's armed forces, or were victims themselves of the 9/11 attacks. "Period."

"If you don't believe me, wait until they put your wife in a burka," Gentries continued in reference to the face-and-body-covering worn by a small minority of Muslim women and banned in the universities of Turkey, Tunisia, and Syria. "Or worse, a rape camp. That's right: For reasons I am content being totally unable to articulate, I am choosing to associate Muslims with rape camps."

Over the past decade, Gentries said he has taken pains to avoid personal interactions or media that might have the potential to compromise his point of view. He told reporters that the closest he had come to confronting a contrary standpoint was tuning in to the first few seconds of an interview with a moderate Muslim cleric before hastily turning off the television.

"I almost gave in and listened to that guy defend Islam with words I didn't want to hear," Gentries said. "But then I remembered how much easier it is to live in a world of black-and-white in which I can assign the label of 'other' to someone and use him as a vessel for all my fears and insecurities."

Added Gentries, "That really put things back into perspective."

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/ (http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/)

:)

NY Times poll of New Yorkers from last week.

The education one is rather interesting...

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/03/nyregion/03poll-graphic/03poll-graphic-popup-v2.gif)

Quote from: J70 on September 09, 2010, 11:47:36 PM
NY Times poll of New Yorkers from last week.

The education one is rather interesting...

I like 'Should Politician outside NY take a stand?

Washington should butt out!

Quote from: muppet on April 24, 2010, 03:41:59 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/23/belgian-bishop-admits-molesting-boy (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/23/belgian-bishop-admits-molesting-boy)

If the abuse terrorism was isolated to one country or region, I would lay the blame locally. When the abuse terrorism is world-wide I would lay the blame at the top.

A slightly altered quote from Muppet on the Clergy abuse thread (makes for interesting reading by the way to shine light on the rabid double standards) kinda sums up my argument here of the hypocrisy between the lynch mob mentality of the Catholic
Church and it's indiscretions by a few, and the deafening silence of the so called moderate muslims the world over in condemning and or denouncing global terror in the name of Islam!
The Catholic Church did indeed take a deserved battering from all walks of life and quite extensively on here  ::) but not surprisingly, that is where the similarities stop
... then again,  when I can't seem to be able to pry a condemnation for said atrocities out of Galloway's lapdogs here then maybe I'm expecting a little much from the Moderates in the muslim community  :-\

QuoteJust like all the catholics, led by the moronic Bill Donoghue in the US, who get their knickers in a twist anytime someone says anything even remotely disrespectful about catholicism.

All the Catholics....Really J? And anyway as long as we're still only getting our knickers in a twist and not chopping peoples heads off for being offended
it's all ok for now...I suppose ::)

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 10, 2010, 01:12:03 AM

QuoteJust like all the catholics, led by the moronic Bill Donoghue in the US, who get their knickers in a twist anytime someone says anything even remotely disrespectful about catholicism.

All the Catholics....Really J? And anyway as long as we're still only getting our knickers in a twist and not chopping peoples heads off for being offended
it's all ok for now...I suppose ::)

Is that what you're reduced to? Taking a carefully selected interpretation of a comment like that and getting indignant? In context, it obviously means the catholic busybodies who, led by Bill Donohue, get offended over trivial insults. It doesn't mean each and every catholic.

But at least you apparently don't disagree with the point of my comment which is that people take their religion and their religious objects far, far too seriously, whether its Bill Donohue blethering on about some perceived slight or muslims agitating over a cartoon or a book that says something derogatory about Mohammed.

And yes, the feigned outrage by the likes of Donohue is generally just amusing and pathetic and society rolls on regardless, thankfully. As to whether the average muslim will resort to lethal force in defence of his religion more quickly than the average christian, well obviously the stereotype says yes. Is it true though, all else being equal, taking fights over territory and extremists like the Taliban and Al Qaida out of it? No one denies that they have a fucked-up, perverted strain of their religion. But if its all muslims who are more inclined to murderousness, then we should be seeing it everywhere, including the US and Europe. Is that the case?

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 10, 2010, 01:12:03 AM

Quote from: muppet on April 24, 2010, 03:41:59 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/23/belgian-bishop-admits-molesting-boy (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/23/belgian-bishop-admits-molesting-boy)

If the abuse terrorism was isolated to one country or region, I would lay the blame locally. When the abuse terrorism is world-wide I would lay the blame at the top.

A slightly altered quote from Muppet on the Clergy abuse thread (makes for interesting reading by the way to shine light on the rabid double standards) kinda sums up my argument here of the hypocrisy between the lynch mob mentality of the Catholic
Church and it's indiscretions by a few, and the deafening silence of the so called moderate muslims the world over in condemning and or denouncing global terror in the name of Islam!
The Catholic Church did indeed take a deserved battering from all walks of life and quite extensively on here  ::) but not surprisingly, that is where the similarities stop
... then again,  when I can't seem to be able to pry a condemnation for said atrocities out of Galloway's lapdogs here then maybe I'm expecting a little much from the Moderates in the muslim community  :-\

QuoteJust like all the catholics, led by the moronic Bill Donoghue in the US, who get their knickers in a twist anytime someone says anything even remotely disrespectful about catholicism.

All the Catholics....Really J? And anyway as long as we're still only getting our knickers in a twist and not chopping peoples heads off for being offended
it's all ok for now...I suppose ::)

The problem with this ridiculous analogy is that the Catholic Church didn't have countries invaded by the children they abused, they didn't have their citizens bombed by the victims of pedophilia and they didn't have their enemies armed to the teeth by the innocent children. The children can in no way be accused of provocation.

While Islamic Terrorism is unjustified as is any other terrorism, it is absurd to ignore the role of the USA's foreign policy as a catalyst for Islamic attacks on the USA and its allies.

Most posters here condemn the 911 attacks and any other attacks carried out by Al Queda and the like. They also condemn the rocket attacks on Israel and the suicide bombers but Tyrone's Own and co will always ignore that.

Moderate Islamics probably find themselves where moderate nationalists were during the 1980s. i.e. against terrorism but afraid to go around publicly denouncing it.

I can't get enough of this one

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/photobucketing/liberty.gif)

What time does this burning event kick off? Do you reckon it's on normal tv or has anyone got any links? Suppose I should run round to the 24 hours and get matches too, wouldn't wanna miss out for lack of a light.

Nine years, two wars, all the dead -- nothing learnt

By Robert Fisk
Saturday September 11 2010

Did 9/11 make us all go mad? How fitting, in a weird, crazed way, that the apotheosis of that firestorm nine years ago should turn out to be a crackpot preacher threatening another firestorm with a Nazi-style book burning of the Koran.

Or a would-be mosque two blocks from "ground zero" -- as if 9/11 was an onslaught on Jesus-worshipping Christians, rather than on the atheist West.

But why should we be surprised? Just look at all the other crackpots spawned in the aftermath of those international crimes against humanity: the half-crazed Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the smarmy post-nuclear Moammar Gadaffi, Tony Blair with his crazed right eye and George W Bush with his black prisons and torture and lunatic "war on terror". And that wretched man who lived -- or lives still -- in an Afghan cave and the hundreds of al-Qa'idas whom he created. And remember one thing: even if the Rev Terry Jones sticks with his decision to back down, another of our cranks will be ready to take his place.

Indeed, on this grim ninth anniversary -- and heaven spare us next year from the 10th -- 9/11 appears to have produced not peace or justice or democracy or human rights, but monsters. They have prowled Iraq -- both the Western and the local variety -- and slaughtered 100,000 souls, or 500,000, or a million; and who cares? They have killed tens of thousands in Afghanistan; and who cares?

And as the sickness has spread across the Middle East and then the globe, they -- the air force pilots and the insurgents, the Marines and the suicide bombers, the al-Qa'idas and the special forces and the close air support boys and the throat-cutters -- have torn the heads off women and children and the old and the sick and the young and healthy, from the Indus to the Mediterranean, from Bali to the London Tube. That is quite a memorial to the 2,966 innocents who were killed nine years ago. All in their name, it seems, has been our holocaust of fire and blood, enshrined now in the crazed pastor of Gainesville.

And God? Where does he fit in? An archive of quotations suggests that just about every monster created in or after 9/11 is a follower of him. Bin Laden prays to God -- "to turn America into a shadow of itself", as he told me in 1997 -- and Bush prayed to God and Blair prayed -- and prays -- to God, and all the Muslim killers and an awful lot of Western soldiers and Dr (honourary) Pastor Terry Jones and his 30 (or it may be 50, since all statistics are hard to come by in the "war on terror") pray to God. And poor old God, of course, has had to listen to these prayers as he always sits through them during our mad wars. Recall the words attributed to him by a poet of another generation: "God this, God that, and God the other thing. 'Good God,' said God, 'I've got my work cut out'." And that was just World War One ...

Just five years ago -- on the fourth anniversary of the Twin Towers/Pentagon/Pennsylvania attacks -- a schoolgirl asked me at a lecture in a Belfast church whether the Middle East would benefit from more religion. No -- less religion! -- I howled back. God is good for contemplation, not for war. But this whole bloody mess involves the Middle East; it is about a Muslim people who have kept their faith while those Westerners who dominate them -- militarily, economically, culturally, socially -- have lost theirs.

Irony

How can this be, Muslims ask? Indeed, it is a superb irony that the Rev Jones is a believer while the rest of us -- by and large -- are not. Hence our books and our documentaries never refer to Muslims vs Christians, but Muslims versus 'The West'.

And of course, the one taboo subject of which we must not speak -- Israel's relationship with America, and America's unconditional support for Israel's theft of land from Muslim Arabs -- also lies at the heart of this terrible crisis in our lives. We may prefer to ignore this in "the West" -- where Muslims supposedly "hate us for what we are" or "hate our democracy" (see: Bush, Blair and a host of other mendacious politicians) -- but this great conflict lies at the heart of the "war on terror". That is why Benjamin Netanyahu reacted to the atrocities of 9/11 by claiming that the event would be good for Israel. Israel would now be able to claim that it, too, was fighting the "war on terror".

It was not. Israel's battle with the Palestinians is a ghastly caricature of our "war on terror", in which we are supposed to support the last colonial project on Earth -- and accept its thousands of victims -- because the Twin Towers and the Pentagon and United Flight 93 were attacked by 19 Arab murderers nine years ago. There is a supreme irony in the fact that one direct result of 9/11 has been the stream of Western policemen and spooks who have travelled to Israel to improve their "anti-terrorist expertise" with the help of Israeli officers.

And yes, I know the arguments. We cannot compare the actions of evil terrorists with the courage of young men and women, defending our lives -- and sacrificing theirs -- on the front lines of the "war on terror". There can be no "equivalence". "They" kill innocents because "they" are evil. "We" kill innocents by mistake. But we know we are going to kill innocents -- we willingly accept that we are going to kill innocents, that our actions are going to create mass graves of families, of the poor and the weak and the dispossessed.

This is why we created the obscene definition of "collateral damage". For if "collateral" means that these victims are innocent, then "collateral" also means that we are innocent of killing them. It was not our wish to kill them -- even if we knew it was inevitable that we would. "Collateral" is our exoneration. This one word is the difference between "them" and "us", between our God-given right to kill and Bin Laden's God-given right to murder.

That's why we know how many died on 9/11 -- 2,966, although the figure may be higher -- and why we don't "do body counts" on those whom we kill. Because they -- "our" victims -- must have no identities, no innocence, no personality, no cause or belief or feelings; and because we have killed far, far more human beings than Bin Laden and the Taliban and al-Qa'ida.

Anniversaries are newspaper and television events. And while on this gloomy anniversary the Rev Jones wanted to burn a book called the Koran, Tony Blair tried to sell a book called 'A Journey'. Rev Jones said the Koran was "evil"; people have asked whether the Blair book should be classified as "crime". Certainly, 9/11 has moved into fantasy when the Rev Jones can command the attention of the Obamas and the Clintons and the Holy Father and the even more Holy United Nations. Whom the gods would destroy... (©Independent News Service)

- Robert Fisk


http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/nine-years-two-wars-all-the-dead-nothing-learnt-2333680.html

EID MUBARACK!!

 September Eleven: Hope or Hate?

"Book burning is a special kind of savagery..."


by Felicity Arbuthnot



"No creature smarts so little as a fool." (Alexander Pope, 1688-1744.)


Numerous commentators on the demented, hate filled ramblings of "Pastor" Terry Jones, who may or may not celebrate his 11th September by an evening of Qur'an burnings, have referred to the potential of Muslim retaliation across the globe.  General Petraeus is concerned about backlash to US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. President Obama and Secretary of State Hilary Clinton, more or less reiterated his stance -  whilst saying they are powerless to stop his hate filled initiative. One can only speculate as to whether they would be as sanguine were it the Torah or Talmud being burned.



Yet the avalanche of comments also create a further divide.

Jones is a man with miniscule "following." Near no mention is being made of Christians, Jews or those born to both religions, but who have long wandered away, and of other faiths, or none, shamed and repelled to have this action committed in their name - they are American, British, German, Spanish, Polish, Italian and other nations - civilian, but unwillingly "allied" to the "coalition", who have invaded - and are threatening -  Muslim countries. They are part of the millions who marched against war - and the countless more, who first believed the threats spouted by their governments, then acknowledged that they had been mislead and have acted tirelessly, trying to redress their - and governments - mistakes.



One website condemning the action attracted seven thousand protesters near-instantly. A tongue in cheek commentator suggested it is the Pastor who should be burned - in Hell. Another site has attracted more thousands of non-Muslims to a worldwide "Wear a Hijab Day", on 11th September - and another to convert the anniversary to global: "Buy a Qur'an Day."



One writer wondered what kind of "crazy" now "represents" God. Well, a few actually. There was George W. Bush, who announced he was embarking on a "Crusade" and was enjoined by then Prime Minister Tony Blair, now converted to Catholicism. There was the "Clash of Civilisations", nonsense.  And US and UK soldiers taking in guns with Biblical quotes on the stocks - and distributing bibles in the relevant languages as they incursed - and worse - in to towns, villages, neighbourhoods in Afghanistan and Iraq. A practice, when discovered, which led - ironically - to a photo-op of ceremonial burnings of remaining bible stocks by US troops.



Guantanamo, Bagram and formerly US and UK-operated prisons in Iraq (and elsewhere) including another infamy, Abu Ghraib, filled with near entirely Muslims. Countless languishing for years, uncharged and with no day in Court. Tortured, unimaginably degraded, their Qur'ans have been thrown in to toilets, stepped on and worse. In Fallujah in the original confrontation when the US troops took over a school, they left having written obscenities about Islam on doors and walls, having repeatedly defecated and again, done the unspeakable to Qur'ans.



Book burning is a special kind of savagery, it both destroys and displays an ignorance of and fear of culture, own and that of others. Julius Caesar burned the great library in Alexandria in 48 BC. Nero burned Rome in 64 AD. The Mongul hordes the Baghdad Library and that of the great Munstanstarya University eight hundred years ago. Hitler, of course was in to book burning, organized under Goebbels, the Orwellianly-named Minster of Enlightenment. The new Monguls, in US uniform, allowed or were instrumental, in the same the same, multi-fold, in 2003 - and have continued to bomb and burn property and people - and Qur'ans - for seven years - ongoing, for all the misleading "pullout" nonsense.



Perhaps Mr Jones - who seemingly packs a .40-caliber pistol on his hip - has unwittingly made one progressive step. After what has been revealed, from top to bottom of barking crazy fundamentalism in Christianity, many may think twice before ever again writing or uttering the words: "fundamentalist" with "Islam."



11th September falls at the start of the three day Muslim celebration of Eid, marking the end of the holy month of Ramadan, a time of abstinence. Eid is joyous meals, new clothes for children, gifts and pristine money for the young. In Afghanistan and Iraq, for the majority it is either scaled down to near nothing, or just a memory, due to grief, invasion, inflicted travel terror, poverty, or all four . 



For America, it is the commemoration of the fall of the Towers, with no thought of the 11th September inflicted in casualties, daily, weekly, monthly on the countries invaded since - who had no nationals even accused of being on the flights which allegedly hit the buildings and the Pentagon (facts which over twelve hundred professionals and experts now dispute the official version.)



Anniversaries on 11th September abound, from the mists of time onwards. However, some salutary ones, in relatively recent history, show America is not alone in its suffering, indeed, has created that of others. On 11th September 1919, US Marines invaded Honduras; on 11th September 1941, the ground was broken for the construction of the Pentagon, that source of more subsequent world wide marauding and slaughter. On 11th September  1965, the US First Cavalry arrived in Viet Nam - and on 11th September 1973, the Nixon Administration's collusion in the overthrow of the democratically elected President Salvador Allende in Chile, came to fruition, ushering in the decades of the "disappeared", under General Augusto Pinochet.



Ally Britain indulged in a bit of decimation on 11th September 1944, bombing and creating a fire storm in Darmstadt, Germany, incinerating eleven thousand five hundred people. 11th September 1997 is remembered for the loss of fourteen Estonian soldiers on the Russian submarine Kurske, in a haunting disaster. The widow of one who died reflected, memorably: " If you betray your country (the law is invoked) and you pay the price. But what happens if your country betrays you?" Quite.



Betrayed also are the nationalities of the numerous other countries who died in the Twin Towers - over one in ten of the tragedy. They included nationals of Jordan and Lebanon, India lost forty one, South Korea twenty eight, Canada and Japan both lost twenty four, Colombia seventeen, Jamaica, Mexico and the Philippines sixteen each, Australia and Germany eleven each, Italy ten, Israel five and the UK sixty seven, including nationals of its territory, Bermuda. Deaths in lesser numbers are from nations across the planet. (Wikipedia and others.) In spite of a near uniquely international tragedy, and opportunity for coming together, it seems to have been transformed in to exclusively American grief - and revenge.



Even that wretched dove, symbol of global peace, which adorns cards for all seasons, has become embroiled, with "Pastor" Jones, in naming his strange interpretation of vengeful, not conciliatory, Christianity: "Dove World Outreach Centre."  Jones, of course sent children from his church to school, wearing shirts stating: "Islam Is Of The Devil," also the title of a book he has written. Impossible not to think of a recent depiction on a card, of a desperate dove, not with an olive leaf, or twig in its beak, but the entire branch. It  is depicted struggling through the thermals, drops of perspiration bursting though the feathers.



Those of note who have spoken out appear to be more worried about retaliation on US and UK troops, than the implications of a shaming act. With the news from Pentagon documents, that US troops have alleged to have been involved in further atrocities, collecting of fingers, teeth bones, even skulls of victims, retaliation seems anyway, pretty well guaranteed. 



Recently a contributer to a Middle East-orientated website wrote: "I am a Muslim : Kill me & call it "collateral damage"; imprison me & call it: "security measure"; exile my people en masse & call it: "A New Middle East"; steal my resources, invade my land, murder my wife & children, alter the leadership of my country & call it: "democracy." He speaks for millions. Those representing the West, especially the US and UK need humility, genuine outreach, to listen carefully before they talk and bridge building, not bridge burning.

11th September 1893 marked the first World Parliament of Religions, held in Chicago, an outreach of understanding between all faiths, and held ever since. An anniversary which celebrates justice, not vengeance. A good starting point in emulating their efforts, might be to ponder on a verse from the Qur'an. The copy in mind is in superb, lovingly crafted caligraphy, on palest peachy-primrose, dawn's perhaps most perfect herald. Translated, it reads:



"I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn,

From the mischief of created things,

From the mischief of darkness as it overspreads,

From the mischief of those who blow on knots'

And from the mischief of the envious one as he practises envy."

QuoteThe problem with this ridiculous analogy is that the Catholic Church didn't have countries invaded by the children they abused, they didn't have their citizens bombed by the victims of pedophilia and they didn't have their enemies armed to the teeth by the innocent children. The children can in no way be accused of provocation.

While Islamic Terrorism is unjustified as is any other terrorism, it is absurd to ignore the role of the USA's foreign policy as a catalyst for Islamic attacks on the USA and its allies.

As I stated many times here, ye lads refuse to leave a stone left unturned in searching out a justification of one kind or another for Islamic terror...
and the deafening silence of it's followers. An eye for an eye is suddenly OK now as an excuse because it's the US making them do it ::)

Now tell me honestly, are ye really actually that naive to believe that if the US pulled up stakes through out the world and brought every
man and woman home tomorrow that the world would be a safer place and or that Muslim extremist would suddenly say ah sure that's that then
...wise up, they need the US as a smoke screen so that they have somebody to blame as they go about their stated intention!

If That 'Mosque' ISN'T Built, This Is No Longer America

OpenMike 9/11/10
Michael Moore's daily blog

I am opposed to the building of the "mosque" two blocks from Ground Zero.

I want it built on Ground Zero.

Why? Because I believe in an America that protects those who are the victims of hate and prejudice. I believe in an America that says you have the right to worship whatever God you have, wherever you want to worship. And I believe in an America that says to the world that we are a loving and generous people and if a bunch of murderers steal your religion from you and use it as their excuse to kill 3,000 souls, then I want to help you get your religion back. And I want to put it at the spot where it was stolen from you.

There's been so much that's been said about this manufactured controversy, I really don't want to waste any time on this day of remembrance talking about it. But I hate bigotry and I hate liars, and so in case you missed any of the truth that's been lost in this, let me point out a few facts:

1. I love the Burlington Coat Factory. I've gotten some great winter coats there at a very reasonable price. Muslims have been holding their daily prayers there since 2009. No one ever complained about that. This is not going to be a "mosque," it's going to be a community center. It will have the same prayer room in it that's already there. But to even have to assure people that "it's not going to be mosque" is so offensive, I now wish they would just build a 111-story mosque there. That would be better than the lame and disgusting way the developer has left Ground Zero an empty hole until recently. The remains of over 1,100 people still haven't been found. That site is a sacred graveyard, and to be building another monument to commerce on it is a sacrilege. Why wasn't the entire site turned into a memorial peace park? People died there, and many of their remains are still strewn about, all these years later.

2. Guess who has helped the Muslims organize their plans for this community center? The JEWISH COMMUNITY CENTER of Manhattan! Their rabbi has been advising them since the beginning. It's been a picture-perfect example of the kind of world we all want to live in. Peter Stuyvessant, New York's "founder," tried to expel the first Jews who arrived in Manhattan. Then the Dutch said, no, that's a bit much. So then Stuyvessant said ok, you can stay, but you cannot build a synagogue anywhere in Manhattan. Do your stupid Friday night thing at home. The first Jewish temple was not allowed to be built until 1730. Then there was a revolution, and the founding fathers said this country has to be secular -- no religious nuts or state religions. George Washington (inaugurated around the corner from Ground Zero) wanted to make a statement about this his very first year in office, and wrote this to American Jews:


"The citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy -- a policy worthy of imitation. ...


"It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens ...


"May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants -- while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid."

3. The Imam in charge of this project is the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet. Read about his past here.

4. Around five dozen Muslims died at the World Trade Center on 9/11. Hundreds of members of their families still grieve and suffer. The 19 killers did not care what religion anyone belonged to when they took those lives.

5. I've never read a sadder headline in the New York Times than the one on the front page this past Monday: "American Muslims Ask, Will We Ever Belong?" That should make all of us so ashamed that even a single one of our fellow citizens should ever have to worry about if they "belong" here.

6. There is a McDonald's two blocks from Ground Zero. Trust me, McDonald's has killed far more people than the terrorists.

7. During an economic depression or a time of war, fascists are extremely skilled at whipping up fear and hate and getting the working class to blame "the other" for their troubles. Lincoln's enemies told poor Southern whites that he was "a Catholic." FDR's opponents said he was Jewish and called him "Jewsevelt." One in five Americans now believe Obama is a Muslim and 41% of Republicans don't believe he was born here.

8. Blaming a whole group for the actions of just one of that group is anti-American. Timothy McVeigh was Catholic. Should Oklahoma City prohibit the building of a Catholic Church near the site of the former federal building that McVeigh blew up?

9. Let's face it, all religions have their whackos. Catholics have O'Reilly, Gingrich, Hannity and Clarence Thomas (in fact all five conservatives who dominate the Supreme Court are Catholic). Protestants have Pat Robertson and too many to list here. The Mormons have Glenn Beck. Jews have Crazy Eddie. But we don't judge whole religions on just the actions of their whackos. Unless they're Methodists.

10. If I should ever, God forbid, perish in a terrorist incident, and you or some nutty group uses my death as your justification to attack or discriminate against anyone in my name, I will come back and haunt you worse than Linda Blair marrying Freddy Krueger and moving into your bedroom to spawn Chucky. John Lennon was right when he asked us to imagine a world with "nothing to kill or die for and no religion, too." I heard Deepak Chopra this week say that "God gave humans the truth, and the devil came and he said, 'Let's give it a name and call it religion.' " But John Adams said it best when he wrote a sort of letter to the future (which he called "Posterity"): "Posterity! You will never know how much it cost the present Generation to preserve your Freedom! I hope you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in Heaven that I ever took half the Pains to preserve it." I'm guessing ol' John Adams is up there repenting nonstop right now.

Friends, we all have a responsibility NOW to make sure that Muslim community center gets built. Once again, 70% of the country (the same number that initially supported the Iraq War) is on the wrong side and want the "mosque" moved. Enormous pressure has been put on the Imam to stop his project. We have to turn this thing around. Are we going to let the bullies and thugs win another one? Aren't you fed up by now? When would be a good time to take our country back from the haters?

I say right now. Let's each of us make a statement by donating to the building of this community center! It's a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization and you can donate a dollar or ten dollars (or more) right now through a secure pay pal account by clicking here. I will personally match the first $10,000 raised (forward your PayPal receipt to webguy@michaelmoore.com). If each one of you reading this blog/email donated just a couple of dollars, that would give the center over $6 million, more than what Donald Trump has offered to buy the Imam out. C'mon everyone, let's pitch in and help those who are being debased for simply wanting to do something good. We could all make a huge statement of love on this solemn day.

I lost a co-worker on 9/11. I write this today in his memory.

"The man who speaks of the enemy / Is the enemy himself."
                                                                        -- Bertolt Brecht

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 05:01:57 PM

QuoteThe problem with this ridiculous analogy is that the Catholic Church didn't have countries invaded by the children they abused, they didn't have their citizens bombed by the victims of pedophilia and they didn't have their enemies armed to the teeth by the innocent children. The children can in no way be accused of provocation.

While Islamic Terrorism is unjustified as is any other terrorism, it is absurd to ignore the role of the USA's foreign policy as a catalyst for Islamic attacks on the USA and its allies.

As I stated many times here, ye lads refuse to leave a stone left unturned in searching out a justification of one kind or another for Islamic terror...
and the deafening silence of it's followers. An eye for an eye is suddenly OK now as an excuse because it's the US making them do it ::)

Now tell me honestly, are ye really actually that naive to believe that if the US pulled up stakes through out the world and brought every
man and woman home tomorrow that the world would be a safer place and or that Muslim extremist would suddenly say ah sure that's that then
...wise up, they need the US as a smoke screen so that they have somebody to blame as they go about their stated intention!

As usual no one has said anything that you say they have.

No said that if the US ups sticks the extremists would end their terror, have they? Why would anyone debate with you when you argue in your Own parallel universe.

Why do you think the Muslims attacked the US and not say Iceland?

US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies'


Twelve American soldiers face charges over a secret "kill team" that allegedly blew up and shot Afghan civilians at random and collected their fingers as trophies.

Five of the soldiers are charged with murdering three Afghan men who were allegedly killed for sport in separate attacks this year. Seven others are accused of covering up the killings and assaulting a recruit who exposed the murders when he reported other abuses, including members of the unit smoking hashish stolen from civilians.

In one of the most serious accusations of war crimes to emerge from the Afghan conflict, the killings are alleged to have been carried out by members of a Stryker infantry brigade based in Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan.

According to investigators and legal documents, discussion of killing Afghan civilians began after the arrival of Staff Sergeant Calvin Gibbs at forward operating base Ramrod last November. Other soldiers told the army's criminal investigation command that Gibbs boasted of the things he got away with while serving in Iraq and said how easy it would be to "toss a grenade at someone and kill them".

One soldier said he believed Gibbs was "feeling out the platoon".

Investigators said Gibbs, 25, hatched a plan with another soldier, Jeremy Morlock, 22, and other members of the unit to form a "kill team". While on patrol over the following months they allegedly killed at least three Afghan civilians. According to the charge sheet, the first target was Gul Mudin, who was killed "by means of throwing a fragmentary grenade at him and shooting him with a rifle", when the patrol entered the village of La Mohammed Kalay in January.

Morlock and another soldier, Andrew Holmes, were on guard at the edge of a poppy field when Mudin emerged and stopped on the other side of a wall from the soldiers. Gibbs allegedly handed Morlock a grenade who armed it and dropped it over the wall next to the Afghan and dived for cover. Holmes, 19, then allegedly fired over the wall.

Later in the day, Morlock is alleged to have told Holmes that the killing was for fun and threatened him if he told anyone.

The second victim, Marach Agha, was shot and killed the following month. Gibbs is alleged to have shot him and placed a Kalashnikov next to the body to justify the killing. In May Mullah Adadhdad was killed after being shot and attacked with a grenade.

The Army Times reported that a least one of the soldiers collected the fingers of the victims as souvenirs and that some of them posed for photographs with the bodies.

Five soldiers – Gibbs, Morlock, Holmes, Michael Wagnon and Adam Winfield – are accused of murder and aggravated assault among other charges. All of the soldiers have denied the charges. They face the death penalty or life in prison if convicted.

The killings came to light in May after the army began investigating a brutal assault on a soldier who told superiors that members of his unit were smoking hashish. The Army Times reported that members of the unit regularly smoked the drug on duty and sometimes stole it from civilians.

The soldier, who was straight out of basic training and has not been named, said he witnessed the smoking of hashish and drinking of smuggled alcohol but initially did not report it out of loyalty to his comrades. But when he returned from an assignment at an army headquarters and discovered soldiers using the shipping container in which he was billeted to smoke hashish he reported it.

Two days later members of his platoon, including Gibbs and Morlock, accused him of "snitching", gave him a beating and told him to keep his mouth shut. The soldier reported the beating and threats to his officers and then told investigators what he knew of the "kill team".

Following the arrest of the original five accused in June, seven other soldiers were charged last month with attempting to cover up the killings and violent assault on the soldier who reported the smoking of hashish. The charges will be considered by a military grand jury later this month which will decide if there is enough evidence for a court martial. Army investigators say Morlock has admitted his involvement in the killings and given details about the role of others including Gibbs. But his lawyer, Michael Waddington, is seeking to have that confession suppressed because he says his client was interviewed while under the influence of prescription drugs taken for battlefield injuries and that he was also suffering from traumatic brain injury.

"Our position is that his statements were incoherent, and taken while he was under a cocktail of drugs that shouldn't have been mixed," Waddington told the Seattle Times

QuoteAs usual no one has said anything that you say they have.

No said that if the US ups sticks the extremists would end their terror, have they? Why would anyone debate with you when you argue in your Own parallel universe.

My bad... I misunderstood this then;
While Islamic Terrorism is unjustified as is any other terrorism, it is absurd to ignore the role of the USA's foreign policy as a catalyst for Islamic attacks on the USA and its allies.

QuoteWhy do you think the Muslims attacked the US and not say Iceland?

Is the US the only place they have terrorized the world over?

(http://posterwire.com/wp-content/images/uncle_sam.jpg)

Don't be shy now TO :D

Quote from: Main Street on September 10, 2010, 10:53:44 PM
I can't get enough of this one

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/photobucketing/liberty.gif)

??? Is that suppose to be funny?

Quote from: new devil on September 11, 2010, 05:47:20 PM

Quote from: Main Street on September 10, 2010, 10:53:44 PM
I can't get enough of this one

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/photobucketing/liberty.gif)

??? Is that suppose to be funny?

What's with the Air Force One plane? Is this part of the "Imam Obama" or "Obama is a muslim" paranoia coming out of the more insane element of right wing at the moment.

QuoteIs this part of the "Imam Obama" or "Obama is a muslim" paranoia coming out of the more insane element of right wing at the moment.

(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv12/JackoTheDweeb/DoubleFacepalm.png)

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on September 11, 2010, 05:31:53 PM
(http://posterwire.com/wp-content/images/uncle_sam.jpg)

Don't be shy now TO :D

What..to go off and fight to preserve the Liberty and freedoms that are enjoyed here and then used to undermine
every fiber of this Great Country as we knew it...no thanks, I can get spat at left and right here on
the board without putting on a uniform  ::)

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 07:20:06 PM

QuoteIs this part of the "Imam Obama" or "Obama is a muslim" paranoia coming out of the more insane element of right wing at the moment.

(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv12/JackoTheDweeb/DoubleFacepalm.png)

The only other meaning I can think of is Obama apparently attacking "freedom".

But ok, please enlighten us as to the meaning of the gif? Or will that go unanswered like the Darwin recantation and the reason why the Park51 mosque people should move their site to respect and show sensitivity people who are labelling them as terrorist sympathisers or supporters, without any apparent justification beyond the fact that they share the same broad religion.

What..to go off and fight to preserve the Liberty and freedoms that are enjoyed here and then used to undermine
every fiber of this Great Country as we knew it...no thanks, I can get spat at left and right here on
the board without putting on a uniform   




(http://www.darkgovernment.com/images/soldiers-casket.jpg)

It was very easy for Bush and Co to send other people's sons and daughters to war >:(

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 05:22:13 PM

QuoteAs usual no one has said anything that you say they have.

No said that if the US ups sticks the extremists would end their terror, have they? Why would anyone debate with you when you argue in your Own parallel universe.

My bad... I misunderstood this then;
While Islamic Terrorism is unjustified as is any other terrorism, it is absurd to ignore the role of the USA's foreign policy as a catalyst for Islamic attacks on the USA and its allies.

QuoteWhy do you think the Muslims attacked the US and not say Iceland?

Is the US the only place they have terrorized the world over?

If you make every effort to completely ignore and misinterpret every point, why shouldn't I?

We are talking about Muslims and the USA.

Here is a clue. The USA has occupied Afghanistan for 9 years and Iraq for 7. Do you not understand that the locals might be a bit more annoyed with the USA than say Iceland who haven't occupied them for any years? And we haven't even mentioned Israel.

Terrorism is a serious virus for humanity. But the Brits discovered that pulling troops out actually reduced acts of terrorism against them. I find it strange that they haven't taught their allies that might isn't always right.

Quote from: J70 on September 11, 2010, 06:14:03 PM

Quote from: new devil on September 11, 2010, 05:47:20 PM

Quote from: Main Street on September 10, 2010, 10:53:44 PM
I can't get enough of this one

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/photobucketing/liberty.gif)

??? Is that suppose to be funny?

What's with the Air Force One plane? Is this part of the "Imam Obama" or "Obama is a muslim" paranoia coming out of the more insane element of right wing at the moment.

That's way too complicated. Maybe you had forgotten that last year, AIR Force One was sent up in the air to fly around the Statute of Liberty in a photo op.
Apparently not enough people were informed about this.
Obama's director of the military office had to resign over the controversy that resulted.
"The low-flying aircraft scared some people on the ground and in buildings, fearing another 9/11 attack. An F-16 fighter jet, which took the photo, trailed Air Force One in the skies above New York and New Jersey, adding to the drama."

(http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/05/09/alg_plane3.jpg)

Quote??? Is that suppose to be funny?

There is no one true humour, humour is subjective, also it depends on time, place and person.
if you don't get it or don't find it funny, no need to give it further thought.
Considering the present day extreme reaction to the prayer house for Muslims, I find that it has a humourous connection.

Quote from: Main Street on September 11, 2010, 09:39:55 PM
There is no one true humour, humour is subjective, also it depends on time, place and person.
if you don't get it or don't find it funny, no need to give it further thought.

Funnymentalists like you are danger to society as are all comic extremists.

QuoteThe only other meaning I can think of is Obama apparently attacking "freedom".

Of course it is ...would expect nothing less than a block wall of defense of the anointed one
right out of the gate from you.

QuoteBut ok, please enlighten us as to the meaning of the gif

Have absolutely no Idea whatsoever..but then I'm not the one jumping to conclusions or
defenses, nor I might add did I post it, why not ask Main street his take on it if it, might
help take the twist out of your thong? *shakes head*

QuoteOr will that go unanswered like the Darwin recantation

There are writings up the ying yang that blow holes in his theories
a Nobel piece ( yes, back when it actually meant something) amongst them and it's not solely about the deathbed recantation
from him..it's widely believed he doubted some of it for many years prior to his death
For example, in 1875 (he died in 1882 by the way) he wrote the following words to fellow scientist Robert Hooker:

    You ask about my book, & all that I can say is that I am ready to commit suicide: I thought it was decently written, but find so much wants rewriting. . . . I begin to think that every one who publishes a book is a fool (quoted in Colp, 1977, p. 228).
But then ye boy's are so much smarter than I and read much better informed history books than I do..obviously  ::)

Quotethe reason why the Park51 mosque people should move their site to respect and show sensitivity people who are labelling them as terrorist sympathisers or supporters, without any apparent justification beyond the fact that they share the same broad religion.

I've explained my reasons... clearly not to your satisfaction of course but again that brings that wall you have built back in to play here;
With all that I have said on the subject I suppose I am afraid of this country turning into France;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA0kkhTkZoI&feature=related
Or any of Europe for that matter;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovUwG34kuEc&NR=1
I could go on but ye get the idea......................keep the heads in the sand lads, it's worked out great to date!

Quote from: Main Street on September 11, 2010, 09:39:55 PM

Quote from: J70 on September 11, 2010, 06:14:03 PM

Quote from: new devil on September 11, 2010, 05:47:20 PM

Quote from: Main Street on September 10, 2010, 10:53:44 PM
I can't get enough of this one

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/photobucketing/liberty.gif)

??? Is that suppose to be funny?

What's with the Air Force One plane? Is this part of the "Imam Obama" or "Obama is a muslim" paranoia coming out of the more insane element of right wing at the moment.

That's way too complicated. Maybe you had forgotten that last year, AIR Force One was sent up in the air to fly around the Statute of Liberty in a photo op.
Apparently not enough people were informed about this.
Obama's director of the military office had to resign over the controversy that resulted.
"The low-flying aircraft scared some people on the ground and in buildings, fearing another 9/11 attack. An F-16 fighter jet, which took the photo, trailed Air Force One in the skies above New York and New Jersey, adding to the drama."

(http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/05/09/alg_plane3.jpg)

Yes, I remember well the mass hysteria when Air Force One flew around the harbour. If that's all this refers to, then yes, it is rather amusing! I'd obviously assumed some deeper, more sinister motive!

QuoteIf you make every effort to completely ignore and misinterpret every point, why shouldn't I?

Righty oh..so we're back to the eye for an eye logic...doesn't that make the world go blind or something ???

QuoteHere is a clue. The USA has occupied Afghanistan for 9 years and Iraq for 7. Do you not understand that the locals might be a bit more annoyed with the USA than say Iceland who haven't occupied them for any years?

Forgotten about the first trade center bombing?..check the date on that when ye have a minute  ::)

QuoteBut the Brits discovered that pulling troops out actually reduced acts of terrorism against them. I find it strange that they haven't taught their allies that might isn't always right

Right so I'll say it for the second time, by that logic, if we were to up stakes and leave tomorrow, we'd all be back to dancing in circles and making daisy chains
...is that it?

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 09:43:47 PM
There are writings up the ying yang that blow holes in his theories
a Nobel piece ( yes, back when it actually meant something) amongst them and it's not solely about the deathbed recantation
from him..it's widely believed he doubted some of it for many years prior to his death
For example, in 1875 (he died in 1882 by the way) he wrote the following words to fellow scientist Robert Hooker:

    You ask about my book, & all that I can say is that I am ready to commit suicide: I thought it was decently written, but find so much wants rewriting. . . . I begin to think that every one who publishes a book is a fool (quoted in Colp, 1977, p. 228).

There is clutching at straws and there is clutching at straws.

Tell me, if evolution is way off the mark then what's your twist on our origin?

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 09:54:14 PM

QuoteIf you make every effort to completely ignore and misinterpret every point, why shouldn't I?

Righty oh..so we're back to the eye for an eye logic...doesn't that make the world go blind or something ???

Eye for an eye, you are the Israeli sympathiser here. Your view is simply that anyone with an opinion remotely different to your extreme view must be an extremist from the other side.

Quote

QuoteHere is a clue. The USA has occupied Afghanistan for 9 years and Iraq for 7. Do you not understand that the locals might be a bit more annoyed with the USA than say Iceland who haven't occupied them for any years?

Forgotten about the first trade center bombing?..check the date on that when ye have a minute  ::)

No I haven't. But history didn't start that day either did it? US foreign policy had already , and with spectacular foresight, supported such reliable allies as Osama Bin Laden and Saddam hussein before that. With friends like that..........

Quote

QuoteBut the Brits discovered that pulling troops out actually reduced acts of terrorism against them. I find it strange that they haven't taught their allies that might isn't always right

Right so I'll say it for the second time, by that logic, if we were to up stakes and leave tomorrow, we'd all be back to dancing in circles and making daisy chains
...is that it?

No of course not. Do you see anyone in Northern Ireland dancing in circles and making daisy chains? All I said was that terrorist attacks on Britain reduced. That is a fact which you ignore.

QuoteThere is clutching at straws and there is clutching at straws.

:D :D Me...? what the hell kind a retort was this Muppet, seriously hi!
I was brought to task by a smart ass reply from J and indirectly from Hardly
for a non answer on my post about Darwin, about it being his Death bed Recant
and I quoted a note he himself had written 7 yrs before his death to strengthen
that very point... but now I'm clutching at straws :D

Quote
Tell me, if evolution is way off the mark then what's your twist on our origin?

Absolutely none of your business similar to how it's none of my business to know your
twist on it!

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 09:43:47 PM

QuoteThe only other meaning I can think of is Obama apparently attacking "freedom".

Of course it is ...would expect nothing less than a block wall of defense of the anointed one
right out of the gate from you.

Have you boys not been screaming about his "attacks on freedom" for 18 months now? Not an unreasonable interpretation of this gif, by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 09:43:47 PM

QuoteBut ok, please enlighten us as to the meaning of the gif

Have absolutely no Idea whatsoever..but then I'm not the one jumping to conclusions or
defenses, nor I might add did I post it, why not ask Main street his take on it if it, might
help take the twist out of your thong? *shakes head*

I asked you because you obviously thought my interpretation was idiotic. If you don't want to be addressed on an issue, then leave it the f**k alone.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 09:43:47 PM

QuoteOr will that go unanswered like the Darwin recantation

There are writings up the ying yang that blow holes in his theories
a Nobel piece ( yes, back when it actually meant something) amongst them and it's not solely about the deathbed recantation
from him..it's widely believed he doubted some of it for many years prior to his death
For example, in 1875 (he died in 1882 by the way) he wrote the following words to fellow scientist Robert Hooker:

    You ask about my book, & all that I can say is that I am ready to commit suicide: I thought it was decently written, but find so much wants rewriting. . . . I begin to think that every one who publishes a book is a fool (quoted in Colp, 1977, p. 228).
But then ye boy's are so much smarter than I and read much better informed history books than I do..obviously  ::)

That's it? You must be f**king joking!!  :D

Here's the full quote (including the carefully selected omitted text included here in bold!):

"You ask about my book, & all that I can say is that I am ready to commit suicide: I thought it was decently written, but find so much wants rewriting, that it will not be ready to go to printers for two months, and then it will make a confoundedly big book. Murray will say that it is no use publishing in the middle of summer, so I do not know what will be the upshot; but I begin to think that every one who publishes a book is a fool"

Incidentally, Darwin was talking about his book, Insectivorous Plants, published in 1875, the year of his letter to Hooker. But regardless, I would think that the emotions Darwin expresses here are felt by just about anyone who writes a book or a thesis, or makes a film, or record music or just about any big project! They always feel like they need to be done over! They're certainly not the words of a man repudiating his ideas or theories!

Now, please tell us a bit more about this Nobel Peace Prize and the rest of these books (not too many scientific papers though, I would say?) that you say blow holes in his theories. And about their apparent complete lack of impact on the field of biology!

BTW, I would be interested in knowing what Colp was actually talking about in the chapter you pulled the quote from. But we can come back to that...

BTW as well, the deathbed recantation is a myth, but as I said before, even it wasn't, it is completely irrelevant.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 09:43:47 PM

Quotethe reason why the Park51 mosque people should move their site to respect and show sensitivity people who are labelling them as terrorist sympathisers or supporters, without any apparent justification beyond the fact that they share the same broad religion.

I've explained my reasons... clearly not to your satisfaction of course but again that brings that wall you have built back in to play here;
With all that I have said on the subject I suppose I am afraid of this country turning into France;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA0kkhTkZoI&feature=related
Or any of Europe for that matter;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovUwG34kuEc&NR=1
I could go on but ye get the idea......................keep the heads in the sand lads, it's worked out great to date!

Your explanations basically amount to islam being dangerous and the necessity of treating all muslims with suspicion, no matter what sect they belong to or any utter lack of a connection between them and terrorism. Its sectarian prejudice, end of story.

Quote from: J70 on September 11, 2010, 10:15:17 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 09:43:47 PM

QuoteThe only other meaning I can think of is Obama apparently attacking "freedom".

Of course it is ...would expect nothing less than a block wall of defense of the anointed one
right out of the gate from you.

Have you boys not been screaming about his "attacks on freedom" for 18 months now? Not an unreasonable interpretation of this gif, by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 09:43:47 PM

QuoteBut ok, please enlighten us as to the meaning of the gif

Have absolutely no Idea whatsoever..but then I'm not the one jumping to conclusions or
defenses, nor I might add did I post it, why not ask Main street his take on it if it, might
help take the twist out of your thong? *shakes head*

I asked you because you obviously thought my interpretation was idiotic. If you don't want to be addressed on an issue, then leave it the f**k alone.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 09:43:47 PM

QuoteOr will that go unanswered like the Darwin recantation

There are writings up the ying yang that blow holes in his theories
a Nobel piece ( yes, back when it actually meant something) amongst them and it's not solely about the deathbed recantation
from him..it's widely believed he doubted some of it for many years prior to his death
For example, in 1875 (he died in 1882 by the way) he wrote the following words to fellow scientist Robert Hooker:

    You ask about my book, & all that I can say is that I am ready to commit suicide: I thought it was decently written, but find so much wants rewriting. . . . I begin to think that every one who publishes a book is a fool (quoted in Colp, 1977, p. 228).
But then ye boy's are so much smarter than I and read much better informed history books than I do..obviously  ::)

That's it? You must be f**king joking!!  :D

Here's the full quote (including the carefully selected omitted text included here in bold!):

"You ask about my book, & all that I can say is that I am ready to commit suicide: I thought it was decently written, but find so much wants rewriting, that it will not be ready to go to printers for two months, and then it will make a confoundedly big book. Murray will say that it is no use publishing in the middle of summer, so I do not know what will be the upshot; but I begin to think that every one who publishes a book is a fool"

Incidentally, Darwin was talking about his book, Insectivorous Plants, published in 1875, the year of his letter to Hooker. But regardless, I would think that the emotions Darwin expresses here are felt by just about anyone who writes a book or a thesis, or makes a film, or record music or just about any big project! They always feel like they need to be done over! They're certainly not the words of a man repudiating his ideas or theories!

Now, please tell us a bit more about this Nobel Peace Prize and the rest of these books (not too many scientific papers though, I would say?) that you say blow holes in his theories. And about their apparent complete lack of impact on the field of biology!

BTW, I would be interested in knowing what Colp was actually talking about in the chapter you pulled the quote from. But we can come back to that...

BTW as well, the deathbed recantation is a myth, but as I said before, even it wasn't, it is completely irrelevant.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 11, 2010, 09:43:47 PM

Quotethe reason why the Park51 mosque people should move their site to respect and show sensitivity people who are labelling them as terrorist sympathisers or supporters, without any apparent justification beyond the fact that they share the same broad religion.

I've explained my reasons... clearly not to your satisfaction of course but again that brings that wall you have built back in to play here;
With all that I have said on the subject I suppose I am afraid of this country turning into France;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA0kkhTkZoI&feature=related
Or any of Europe for that matter;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovUwG34kuEc&NR=1
I could go on but ye get the idea......................keep the heads in the sand lads, it's worked out great to date!

Your explanations basically amount to islam being dangerous and the necessity of treating all muslims with suspicion, no matter what sect they belong to or any utter lack of a connection between them and terrorism. Its sectarian prejudice, end of story.

Oh dear TO, busted wide open yet again. Putting up incomplete quotes - tut tut

QuoteOh dear TO, busted wide open yet again. Putting up incomplete quotes - tut tut

Really Myles....sorry to burst your wee balloon but This is where I got the quote, now of course J can argue it on merit but certainly not
on any intentional misquoting on my part..busted, tut tut....I don't think so ;D
http://www.icr.org/article/was-charles-darwin-psychotic-study-his-mental-heal/

And the article on the Nobel for Anti Darwinism;
http://www.icr.org/article/creative-evolution-anti-darwin-theory-won-nobel/

Sorry girls....need to get up a little earlier it would seem ;)

Taking quotes from icr.org and you think they would be a fair commentator. I hear there are some good quotes over on WWW.Darwinissatan.com too.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 08:35:18 AM
Taking quotes from icr.org and you think they would be a fair commentator. I hear there are some good quotes over on WWW.Darwinissatan.com too.

Now Now Myles just cause ye jumped in with the two wellies once again to get the quick boot in and subsequently got the trousers pulled
down around you ankles ...again  there's no need to rub salt into your wounds!

Why do ye think I didn't post the link to begin with...the predictability of ye ladies jumping all over it for being biased is almost as certain as the arrogance
and elitism of the establishment around here.
If it's not a crazy right wing Fox news link I'm quoting or drawing my views from it's something else  ::)... it's pretty clear the barrels empty when ye have to constantly resort to that shite.

And by the way, I still never did get my question answered as to how the Pied Piper, Hedley and yourself amongst others can quote article after article..
...... after article *yawn* from the most far far left columnists, commentators and reporters to support the Anti West agenda and that's OK  ??? not only that, seems quite welcomed! No bias there...right ::)

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 03:52:19 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 08:35:18 AM
Taking quotes from icr.org and you think they would be a fair commentator. I hear there are some good quotes over on WWW.Darwinissatan.com too.

Now Now Myles just cause ye jumped in with the two wellies once again to get the quick boot in and subsequently got the trousers pulled
down around you ankles ...again  there's no need to rub salt into your wounds!

Why do ye think I didn't post the link to begin with...the predictability of ye ladies jumping all over it for being biased is almost as certain as the arrogance
and elitism of the establishment around here.
If it's not a crazy right wing Fox news link I'm quoting or drawing my views from it's something else  ::)... it's pretty clear the barrels empty when ye have to constantly resort to that shite.

And by the way, I still never did get my question answered as to how the Pied Piper, Hedley and yourself amongst others can quote article after article..
...... after article *yawn* from the most far far left columnists, commentators and reporters to support the Anti West agenda and that's OK  ??? not only that, seems quite welcomed! No bias there...right ::)

What question was this?

I quote from the mainstream media when I put something up here and I try and quote from an informed source - ie, someone who has some experience of the topic I am dealing with. You on the other hand scour the net looking for people as stupid as you are to quote and end up using quotes from a creationist site which intentionally doctored a quote to suit their own beliefs.

On September 09th on this thread you also intentionally twisted the words of the imam only for Deiseach to show you up for what you are when he posted a link to the interview in it entirety.

And then there is this beaut from the Flotila thread where in your warped attempt at expressing your "conflict" on the bombing by Israel of a UN school full of women and children (in reply to Seanie) you call the Palestinians "scum" and the Israeli don't bomb they "counter". Funny enough in that thread you did not reply to me when I pulled you up on it. So were all those women and children in the school scum?

*********************************************************
Quote from: Tyrones own on September 02, 2010, 03:38:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 02, 2010, 09:39:23 AM
Shame on you myles - I'll have to explain it for you. You see because the shells landed outside the school compound its ok that they killed 40 odd people. Israel's military genius is so precise that the knew exactly where the shells would land and they surgically removed 40 odd terrorists who were standing around outside the school. You probably wouldn't understand how this was possible and it might look risky to have shells detonating so close to a school that people in the school compound get injured by the shrapnel but really this was a surgically targetted miliary exercise.   

Myles - there really is no point arguing with someone as deluded as our friend here but remember if this could happen to an Irish guy going over there, what hope is there for the millions who couldn't know any better.

You may be right seanie but i'm conflicted personally as to which is the more dispicable act; Palestinian scum using children and schools as shields from which to shell from or the Israeli's blindly countering
Just have him check his facts before making a fool out of himself next time
********************************************************************
I put all the above here just in case anyone is in any doubt of what grade A gobshite you are. The founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 04:56:37 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 03:52:19 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 08:35:18 AM
Taking quotes from icr.org and you think they would be a fair commentator. I hear there are some good quotes over on WWW.Darwinissatan.com too.

Now Now Myles just cause ye jumped in with the two wellies once again to get the quick boot in and subsequently got the trousers pulled
down around you ankles ...again  there's no need to rub salt into your wounds!

Why do ye think I didn't post the link to begin with...the predictability of ye ladies jumping all over it for being biased is almost as certain as the arrogance
and elitism of the establishment around here.
If it's not a crazy right wing Fox news link I'm quoting or drawing my views from it's something else  ::)... it's pretty clear the barrels empty when ye have to constantly resort to that shite.

And by the way, I still never did get my question answered as to how the Pied Piper, Hedley and yourself amongst others can quote article after article..
...... after article *yawn* from the most far far left columnists, commentators and reporters to support the Anti West agenda and that's OK  ??? not only that, seems quite welcomed! No bias there...right ::)

What question was this?

I quote from the mainstream media when I put something up here and I try and quote from an informed source - ie, someone who has some experience of the topic I am dealing with. You on the other hand scour the net looking for people as stupid as you are to quote and end up using quotes from a creationist site which intentionally doctored a quote to suit their own beliefs.

On September 09th on this thread you also intentionally twisted the words of the imam only for Deiseach to show you up for what you are when he posted a link to the interview in it entirety.

And then there is this beaut from the Flotila thread where in your warped attempt at expressing your "conflict" on the bombing by Israel of a UN school full of women and children (in reply to Seanie) you call the Palestinians "scum" and the Israeli don't bomb they "counter". Funny enough in that thread you did not reply to me when I pulled you up on it. So were all those women and children in the school scum?

*********************************************************
Quote from: Tyrones own on September 02, 2010, 03:38:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 02, 2010, 09:39:23 AM
Shame on you myles - I'll have to explain it for you. You see because the shells landed outside the school compound its ok that they killed 40 odd people. Israel's military genius is so precise that the knew exactly where the shells would land and they surgically removed 40 odd terrorists who were standing around outside the school. You probably wouldn't understand how this was possible and it might look risky to have shells detonating so close to a school that people in the school compound get injured by the shrapnel but really this was a surgically targetted miliary exercise.   

Myles - there really is no point arguing with someone as deluded as our friend here but remember if this could happen to an Irish guy going over there, what hope is there for the millions who couldn't know any better.

You may be right seanie but i'm conflicted personally as to which is the more dispicable act; Palestinian scum using children and schools as shields from which to shell from or the Israeli's blindly countering
Just have him check his facts before making a fool out of himself next time
********************************************************************
I put all the above here just in case anyone is in any doubt of what grade A gobshite you are. The founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

You sir need to get a life...  :D For the second or third time is it, anyone who uses children or hospitals as human shields are scum of the highest order,
the word counter was used correctly as in they targeted where they were being fired at from... point being, I was high lighting the ridiculous claim put forth by ye charlatans that they did not intentionally target a school that they had just ushered women and children in to, :o spectacular sensationalism would be an enormous understatement here!!!
And for the record it makes no difference to me that it was the IDF..could just as well have been the UDR firing at the RAA should they have been using children as shields...but of course you're blinded to this ::)

QuoteThe founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

Oh yea, that's another question that others including myself have asked here; what does being Irish entail, what is the code by which we must all think and where is it written... and yet another, who the Fcuk do ye think ye are and where do ye get off with your self righteous elitist view point?

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 05:48:01 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 04:56:37 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 03:52:19 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 08:35:18 AM
Taking quotes from icr.org and you think they would be a fair commentator. I hear there are some good quotes over on WWW.Darwinissatan.com too.

Now Now Myles just cause ye jumped in with the two wellies once again to get the quick boot in and subsequently got the trousers pulled
down around you ankles ...again  there's no need to rub salt into your wounds!

Why do ye think I didn't post the link to begin with...the predictability of ye ladies jumping all over it for being biased is almost as certain as the arrogance
and elitism of the establishment around here.
If it's not a crazy right wing Fox news link I'm quoting or drawing my views from it's something else  ::)... it's pretty clear the barrels empty when ye have to constantly resort to that shite.

And by the way, I still never did get my question answered as to how the Pied Piper, Hedley and yourself amongst others can quote article after article..
...... after article *yawn* from the most far far left columnists, commentators and reporters to support the Anti West agenda and that's OK  ??? not only that, seems quite welcomed! No bias there...right ::)

What question was this?

I quote from the mainstream media when I put something up here and I try and quote from an informed source - ie, someone who has some experience of the topic I am dealing with. You on the other hand scour the net looking for people as stupid as you are to quote and end up using quotes from a creationist site which intentionally doctored a quote to suit their own beliefs.

On September 09th on this thread you also intentionally twisted the words of the imam only for Deiseach to show you up for what you are when he posted a link to the interview in it entirety.

And then there is this beaut from the Flotila thread where in your warped attempt at expressing your "conflict" on the bombing by Israel of a UN school full of women and children (in reply to Seanie) you call the Palestinians "scum" and the Israeli don't bomb they "counter". Funny enough in that thread you did not reply to me when I pulled you up on it. So were all those women and children in the school scum?

*********************************************************
Quote from: Tyrones own on September 02, 2010, 03:38:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 02, 2010, 09:39:23 AM
Shame on you myles - I'll have to explain it for you. You see because the shells landed outside the school compound its ok that they killed 40 odd people. Israel's military genius is so precise that the knew exactly where the shells would land and they surgically removed 40 odd terrorists who were standing around outside the school. You probably wouldn't understand how this was possible and it might look risky to have shells detonating so close to a school that people in the school compound get injured by the shrapnel but really this was a surgically targetted miliary exercise.   

Myles - there really is no point arguing with someone as deluded as our friend here but remember if this could happen to an Irish guy going over there, what hope is there for the millions who couldn't know any better.

You may be right seanie but i'm conflicted personally as to which is the more dispicable act; Palestinian scum using children and schools as shields from which to shell from or the Israeli's blindly countering
Just have him check his facts before making a fool out of himself next time
********************************************************************
I put all the above here just in case anyone is in any doubt of what grade A gobshite you are. The founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

You sir need to get a life...  :D For the second or third time is it, anyone who uses children or hospitals as human shields are scum of the highest order,
the word counter was used correctly as in they targeted where they were being fired at from... point being, I was high lighting the ridiculous claim put forth by ye charlatans that they did not intentionally target a school that they had just ushered women and children in to, :o spectacular sensationalism would be an enormous understatement here!!!
And for the record it makes no difference to me that it was the IDF..could just as well have been the UDR firing at the RAA should they have been using children as shields...but of course you're blinded to this ::)

QuoteThe founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

Oh yea, that's another question that others including myself have asked here; what does being Irish entail, what is the code by which we must all think and where is it written... and yet another, who the Fcuk do ye think ye are and where do ye get off with your self righteous elitist view point?

The 'United Nations fact finding mission on the Gaza conflict' found no evidence that Palestinian armed groups used civilians as 'human shields'. Perhaps you have conducted an investigation of your own and found evidence to the contrary?

On the original topic of the thread, I find it highly amusing that America's latter day Know Nothings have paddy immigrants in their ranks.  :D

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 01:09:14 AM

QuoteOh dear TO, busted wide open yet again. Putting up incomplete quotes - tut tut

Really Myles....sorry to burst your wee balloon but This is where I got the quote, now of course J can argue it on merit but certainly not
on any intentional misquoting on my part..busted, tut tut....I don't think so ;D
http://www.icr.org/article/was-charles-darwin-psychotic-study-his-mental-heal/

And the article on the Nobel for Anti Darwinism;
http://www.icr.org/article/creative-evolution-anti-darwin-theory-won-nobel/

Sorry girls....need to get up a little earlier it would seem ;)

:D FFS Bergson wasn't even a scientist he was a philosopher, had to read a few extracts of his for politics modules.

He won a Nobel Prize alright.......... in Literature!!  You may as well go ask Seamus Heaney for his expert opinion on the origins of mankind.

Quote from: Rav67 on September 12, 2010, 06:46:44 PM
He won a Nobel Prize alright.......... in Literature!!  You may as well go ask Seamus Heaney for his expert opinion on the origins of mankind.

An expert in fiction. Figures.

Quote from: Arthur_Friend on September 12, 2010, 06:38:53 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 05:48:01 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 04:56:37 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 03:52:19 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 08:35:18 AM
Taking quotes from icr.org and you think they would be a fair commentator. I hear there are some good quotes over on WWW.Darwinissatan.com too.

Now Now Myles just cause ye jumped in with the two wellies once again to get the quick boot in and subsequently got the trousers pulled
down around you ankles ...again  there's no need to rub salt into your wounds!

Why do ye think I didn't post the link to begin with...the predictability of ye ladies jumping all over it for being biased is almost as certain as the arrogance
and elitism of the establishment around here.
If it's not a crazy right wing Fox news link I'm quoting or drawing my views from it's something else  ::)... it's pretty clear the barrels empty when ye have to constantly resort to that shite.

And by the way, I still never did get my question answered as to how the Pied Piper, Hedley and yourself amongst others can quote article after article..
...... after article *yawn* from the most far far left columnists, commentators and reporters to support the Anti West agenda and that's OK  ??? not only that, seems quite welcomed! No bias there...right ::)

What question was this?

I quote from the mainstream media when I put something up here and I try and quote from an informed source - ie, someone who has some experience of the topic I am dealing with. You on the other hand scour the net looking for people as stupid as you are to quote and end up using quotes from a creationist site which intentionally doctored a quote to suit their own beliefs.

On September 09th on this thread you also intentionally twisted the words of the imam only for Deiseach to show you up for what you are when he posted a link to the interview in it entirety.

And then there is this beaut from the Flotila thread where in your warped attempt at expressing your "conflict" on the bombing by Israel of a UN school full of women and children (in reply to Seanie) you call the Palestinians "scum" and the Israeli don't bomb they "counter". Funny enough in that thread you did not reply to me when I pulled you up on it. So were all those women and children in the school scum?

*********************************************************
Quote from: Tyrones own on September 02, 2010, 03:38:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 02, 2010, 09:39:23 AM
Shame on you myles - I'll have to explain it for you. You see because the shells landed outside the school compound its ok that they killed 40 odd people. Israel's military genius is so precise that the knew exactly where the shells would land and they surgically removed 40 odd terrorists who were standing around outside the school. You probably wouldn't understand how this was possible and it might look risky to have shells detonating so close to a school that people in the school compound get injured by the shrapnel but really this was a surgically targetted miliary exercise.   

Myles - there really is no point arguing with someone as deluded as our friend here but remember if this could happen to an Irish guy going over there, what hope is there for the millions who couldn't know any better.

You may be right seanie but i'm conflicted personally as to which is the more dispicable act; Palestinian scum using children and schools as shields from which to shell from or the Israeli's blindly countering
Just have him check his facts before making a fool out of himself next time
********************************************************************
I put all the above here just in case anyone is in any doubt of what grade A gobshite you are. The founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

You sir need to get a life...  :D For the second or third time is it, anyone who uses children or hospitals as human shields are scum of the highest order,
the word counter was used correctly as in they targeted where they were being fired at from... point being, I was high lighting the ridiculous claim put forth by ye charlatans that they did not intentionally target a school that they had just ushered women and children in to, :o spectacular sensationalism would be an enormous understatement here!!!
And for the record it makes no difference to me that it was the IDF..could just as well have been the UDR firing at the RAA should they have been using children as shields...but of course you're blinded to this ::)

QuoteThe founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

Oh yea, that's another question that others including myself have asked here; what does being Irish entail, what is the code by which we must all think and where is it written... and yet another, who the Fcuk do ye think ye are and where do ye get off with your self righteous elitist view point?

The 'United Nations fact finding mission on the Gaza conflict' found no evidence that Palestinian armed groups used civilians as 'human shields'. Perhaps you have conducted an investigation of your own and found evidence to the contrary?

On the original topic of the thread, I find it highly amusing that America's latter day Know Nothings have paddy immigrants in their ranks.  :D

Of course they didn't as the UN people on the ground reported within the hour that there were no gunmen. But for the heck of it lets assume there were gunmen outside this school, is it still ok to bomb that area and slaughter innocent people? Of course its not.

But heh, TO is so stuck to find something out there to fit with his idiotic opinions that he is now using source material from a Creationism website who in turn are quoting the 1927 nobel winner for literature to back up their own opinions.

TO - I look at the Israeli conflict with palestine their brutal regime, their stealing of land, their starving of the palestinian people and the murdering of men women and children and it rings a bell with me in terms of Irelands history with the English. As far as I am concerned anyone who supports the oppression of a people (whether it be Israel on the Palestinians or Germany against the Jews) is not a republican and does not deserve to hold an Irish passport. But you are a US citizen now aren't you so I suppose you don't need to worry about that.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 01:09:14 AM

QuoteOh dear TO, busted wide open yet again. Putting up incomplete quotes - tut tut

Really Myles....sorry to burst your wee balloon but This is where I got the quote, now of course J can argue it on merit but certainly not
on any intentional misquoting on my part..busted, tut tut....I don't think so ;D
http://www.icr.org/article/was-charles-darwin-psychotic-study-his-mental-heal/

Hold on a minute there TO, you're not getting off that lightly. You wrote" But then ye boy's are so much smarter than I and read much better informed history books than I do..obviously   ". You're the one who arrogantly and sarcastically castigated others in advance for (presumably) relying on bogus or biased sources. You then present a quote, purportedly directly from Colp (page 228), in support of your claim about Darwin's alleged doubts about his work, by which you meant his theory of evolution by natural selection. It then turns out that you lifted it from a creationist piece, not from the book on Darwin's health, which you listed, down to the page, as the source, to support your position (and the creationist source is just an ad hominen piece on Darwin anyway – its says nothing worthy about his science).

When you are then caught out for using a heavily edited quote which misrepresents something Darwin said and which, in its original form, lends no support whatsoever to your position not only do you accept no responsibility for the "quote" (only then do you reveal the real source!) or acknowledge that it in no way supports your position! You then proceed to come back with more "evidence" from the same source , same author, that has just been discredited before your eyes (as if their general reputation should not have been enough to render them untrustworthy to anyone with a modicum of knowledge before the fact!). Just in case you don't know, the ICR, while trying to exhibit a veneer of scientific respectability, is so ridiculously mired in pseudoscience and deceit that even the State of Texas, not an unfriendly place for Christian fundamentalists, very recently denied their application for accreditation of their graduate degrees in "biology".

(And BTW, a small piece of advice TO: creationists are notorious for quote mining and using misrepresentation to support their positions. It's all they've got, as no real quotes or analysis of scientific data can help them. I strongly suggest you research quotes you find in creationist literature - it took me about 30 seconds on google to find that that quote you posted was fraudulent).

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 01:09:14 AM
And the article on the Nobel for Anti Darwinism;
http://www.icr.org/article/creative-evolution-anti-darwin-theory-won-nobel/

Sorry girls....need to get up a little earlier it would seem ;)

Its been more than 80 years since this Nobel was awarded (incidentally, not in chemistry where the prizes with evolutionary implications have gone, but in literature!). At the time of the award, the modern synthesis was just beginning as the major groundbreaking work in genetics got under way. If you're as familiar with the history of evolutionary biology as you claim, I don't need to explain the implications of those developments with regards to sources of genetic variety. While this fellow's work may have been interesting at the time, given the knowledge of the time and the fact that natural selection was, at that point, yet to be affirmed in its current central role in evolution, his "vital impetus" was just a blind alley.

Not long after this, in case you are unfamiliar with the implications of the modern synthesis, natural selection was restored to its central position as the main driving force of evolution. While Darwin had very quickly convinced just about everyone that the evolution of life was a fact, the mechanism he proposed, natural selection, took 80 years to find serious scientific support.

Not sure why you relied on this Bergman, PhD, essay anyway... Quoting directly... "Bergson's theory was honored with a Nobel because it appeared to a large number of scholars to be a plausible explanation for the source of genetic variety which natural selection could fine tune. When it was discarded, those who put their faith in Bergson's theory were forced to postulate another mechanism."

Throw me a bone FFS, there's only one of me..I do have business to tend to ye know and don't have the luxury of being able to
hand off the baton like ye boy's can one after the other, neither am I unemployed like some here that have fcuk all better to do  :-*

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 14, 2010, 04:51:29 AM
Throw me a bone FFS, there's only one of me..I do have business to tend to ye know and don't have the luxury of being able to make any argument based on facts.
hand off the baton like ye boy's can one after the other, neither am I unemployed like some here that have fcuk all better to do  :-*

Fixed that for you.

Quote from: magpie seanie on September 14, 2010, 12:59:08 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 14, 2010, 04:51:29 AM
Throw me a bone FFS, there's only one of me..I do have business to tend to ye know and don't have the luxury of being able to make any argument based on facts.
hand off the baton like ye boy's can one after the other, neither am I unemployed like some here that have fcuk all better to do  :-*

Fixed that for you.

How predictable......Man U thread quiet today or what?

What.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 14, 2010, 04:51:29 AM
Throw me a bone FFS, there's only one of me..I do have business to tend to ye know and don't have the luxury of being able to
hand off the baton like ye boy's can one after the other, neither am I unemployed like some here that have fcuk all better to do  :-*

Who isn't working TO? Can you name them or is this another bullshit statement you can't back up.

Is it any wonder she is called "Bush with lipstick" :D


Late Saturday afternoon, Sarah Palin hit President Barack Obama with a list of questions in a Facebook post titled "Legitimate Questions for the President." Obama said he supported the mosque Friday night at a White House celebration to mark Ramadan. Palin adamantly opposes the mosque.

In his speech, Obama said: "I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground."

Palin lashed out in her brief post. "Mr. President, should they or should they not build a mosque steps away from where radical Islamists killed 3000 people?" she wrote. "Please tell us your position. We all know that they have the right to do it, but should they? And, no, this is not above your pay grade."

The pay grade reference hearkened back to a 2008 campaign forum hosted by the Rev. Rick Warren between Obama and Sen. John McCain. Warren asked Obama, "Forty million abortions, at what point does a baby get human rights, in your view?"

Obama responded, "Well, you know, I think that whether you're looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade."

Last month, Palin asked New Yorkers and Muslims to reject construction of the mosque in a now infamous Facebook and Twitter post in which she used the word "refudiate" when she meant "repudiate."

On Friday night before Obama's speech, Palin tweeted, "Will Obama express US lingering pain& ask Muslims for tolerance by discouraging 9/11 mosque while he celebrates Islamic holy month tonight?"

Palin certainly got her answer from Obama and responded accordingly. She asked Obama why he wasn't encouraging the mosque developers to accept Gov. David Paterson's offer of state property as a possible site. Paterson's office would have to competitively sell state land by a bidding process.

"If the sponsors were looking for property anywhere at a distance that would be such that it would accommodate a better feeling among the people who are frustrated, I would look into trying to provide them with the state property they would need," Paterson said last week.

However, Paterson supports the project but says he is "sensitive" to those who oppose the project. New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg also supports the mosque.

Palin asked Obama, "Why are they apparently so set on building a mosque steps from what you have described, in agreement with me, as 'hallowed ground'? I believe these are legitimate questions to ask."

On Saturday before Palin's post, a CNN reporter asked Obama, who is visiting Florida, about his Friday night comments. Obama said, "My intention was to simply let people know what I thought, which was that in this country we treat everyone equally, in accordance with the law, regardless of race regardless of religion. I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there."

Later in the day, White House deputy press secretary Bill Burton said Obama was not backing down on his Friday night remarks. Instead, Burton said, "It is not his role as president to pass judgment on every local project."

Burton also said that it was Obama's duty to stand up for the constitutional principle of religious freedom and equal treatment for all Americans.

"What he said last night, and reaffirmed today," Burton said, "is that if a church, a synagogue or a Hindu temple can be built on a site, you simply cannot deny that right to those who want to build a mosque."

In less than an hour after she published it, more than 5,000 people liked Palin's post. It had received thousands of comments.

One Palin follower wrote: "Doesn't this shlub Obama read history? The Muslims for centuries have built mosques on top of areas where there have won a major victory. They believe that killing over 3000 Americans is a major victory."

Another Palin supporter wrote, "Amen, Sister Sarah."

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 14, 2010, 06:24:05 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 14, 2010, 04:51:29 AM
Throw me a bone FFS, there's only one of me..I do have business to tend to ye know and don't have the luxury of being able to
hand off the baton like ye boy's can one after the other, neither am I unemployed like some here that have fcuk all better to do  :-*

Who isn't working TO? Can you name them or is this another bullshit statement you can't back up.

Can't name ye no.... it is an anonymous internet discussion board after all...hello! ::)
I do notice ye didn't touch the first point I made... how many of ye does it really take?
Sure look at this page alone FFS!
I am an extremely busy one man band here after all... which speaks volumes in and of itself
when even with the sheer numbers, ye still can't get it done 8)

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 08:32:55 PM

Quote from: Arthur_Friend on September 12, 2010, 06:38:53 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 05:48:01 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 04:56:37 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 03:52:19 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 08:35:18 AM
Taking quotes from icr.org and you think they would be a fair commentator. I hear there are some good quotes over on WWW.Darwinissatan.com too.

Now Now Myles just cause ye jumped in with the two wellies once again to get the quick boot in and subsequently got the trousers pulled
down around you ankles ...again  there's no need to rub salt into your wounds!

Why do ye think I didn't post the link to begin with...the predictability of ye ladies jumping all over it for being biased is almost as certain as the arrogance
and elitism of the establishment around here.
If it's not a crazy right wing Fox news link I'm quoting or drawing my views from it's something else  ::)... it's pretty clear the barrels empty when ye have to constantly resort to that shite.

And by the way, I still never did get my question answered as to how the Pied Piper, Hedley and yourself amongst others can quote article after article..
...... after article *yawn* from the most far far left columnists, commentators and reporters to support the Anti West agenda and that's OK  ??? not only that, seems quite welcomed! No bias there...right ::)

What question was this?

I quote from the mainstream media when I put something up here and I try and quote from an informed source - ie, someone who has some experience of the topic I am dealing with. You on the other hand scour the net looking for people as stupid as you are to quote and end up using quotes from a creationist site which intentionally doctored a quote to suit their own beliefs.

On September 09th on this thread you also intentionally twisted the words of the imam only for Deiseach to show you up for what you are when he posted a link to the interview in it entirety.

And then there is this beaut from the Flotila thread where in your warped attempt at expressing your "conflict" on the bombing by Israel of a UN school full of women and children (in reply to Seanie) you call the Palestinians "scum" and the Israeli don't bomb they "counter". Funny enough in that thread you did not reply to me when I pulled you up on it. So were all those women and children in the school scum?

*********************************************************
Quote from: Tyrones own on September 02, 2010, 03:38:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 02, 2010, 09:39:23 AM
Shame on you myles - I'll have to explain it for you. You see because the shells landed outside the school compound its ok that they killed 40 odd people. Israel's military genius is so precise that the knew exactly where the shells would land and they surgically removed 40 odd terrorists who were standing around outside the school. You probably wouldn't understand how this was possible and it might look risky to have shells detonating so close to a school that people in the school compound get injured by the shrapnel but really this was a surgically targetted miliary exercise.   

Myles - there really is no point arguing with someone as deluded as our friend here but remember if this could happen to an Irish guy going over there, what hope is there for the millions who couldn't know any better.

You may be right seanie but i'm conflicted personally as to which is the more dispicable act; Palestinian scum using children and schools as shields from which to shell from or the Israeli's blindly countering
Just have him check his facts before making a fool out of himself next time
********************************************************************
I put all the above here just in case anyone is in any doubt of what grade A gobshite you are. The founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

You sir need to get a life...  :D For the second or third time is it, anyone who uses children or hospitals as human shields are scum of the highest order,
the word counter was used correctly as in they targeted where they were being fired at from... point being, I was high lighting the ridiculous claim put forth by ye charlatans that they did not intentionally target a school that they had just ushered women and children in to, :o spectacular sensationalism would be an enormous understatement here!!!
And for the record it makes no difference to me that it was the IDF..could just as well have been the UDR firing at the RAA should they have been using children as shields...but of course you're blinded to this ::)

QuoteThe founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

Oh yea, that's another question that others including myself have asked here; what does being Irish entail, what is the code by which we must all think and where is it written... and yet another, who the Fcuk do ye think ye are and where do ye get off with your self righteous elitist view point?

The 'United Nations fact finding mission on the Gaza conflict' found no evidence that Palestinian armed groups used civilians as 'human shields'. Perhaps you have conducted an investigation of your own and found evidence to the contrary?

On the original topic of the thread, I find it highly amusing that America's latter day Know Nothings have paddy immigrants in their ranks.  :D

Of course they didn't as the UN people on the ground reported within the hour that there were no gunmen. But for the heck of it lets assume there were gunmen outside this school, is it still ok to bomb that area and slaughter innocent people? Of course its not.

But heh, TO is so stuck to find something out there to fit with his idiotic opinions that he is now using source material from a Creationism website who in turn are quoting the 1927 nobel winner for literature to back up their own opinions.

TO - I look at the Israeli conflict with palestine their brutal regime, their stealing of land, their starving of the palestinian people and the murdering of men women and children and it rings a bell with me in terms of Irelands history with the English. As far as I am concerned anyone who supports the oppression of a people (whether it be Israel on the Palestinians or Germany against the Jews) is not a republican and does not deserve to hold an Irish passport. But you are a US citizen now aren't you so I suppose you don't need to worry about that.

And is it still OK to use civilians as human shields...of course it's not !!
here ye go..ye really don't have to look very hard at all to find that there
are indeed two sides to all of this...if indeed that's what you're interested in ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Oqo_wmuGo&feature=related

this thread has gone way off topic.

Does Hamas use human shields? In the sense that they fire rockets from civilian areas and hide among civilian population then yes they use human shields. It is laughable though that the Israeli MFA should be using the Geneva convention and International law in their videos when they use collective punishment, carry out extra-judical killings and remain and continue to build on Palestinian land and thats just a few.

Getting back to the Mosque - i see they found a friend of the Inam who is a "truther" Why this is news i don't know it has nothing to do with the Inam and his opinions.  They also has the guy who gave money to an a childrens home, and the money might have gone to Hamas, funny nobody mentions that Israel was funding Hamas in its earlier days and that was ok.

Questions to everyone - Are Muslims Collectively guilty for the actions of Islamic Terrorists?
                                   Is ground zero hallowed ground?
                                   How big is ground zero?
                                   Those who don't agree with the Mosque (for ease of use) how close is acceptable?
                                   What is the name of the Centre?
                                   What is a victory Mosque?
                                   Can you be American and Muslim?
                                   Who has more rights in America an African American, a Jewish American, an Irish American,  a Muslim America or anyone who lost a loved one, family member or was a first responder on 9/11?
                                    Is it better to be insenstive to American Muslims than the 9/11 familes (for ease of use)

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 15, 2010, 12:54:46 AM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 08:32:55 PM

Quote from: Arthur_Friend on September 12, 2010, 06:38:53 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 05:48:01 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 04:56:37 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 12, 2010, 03:52:19 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 12, 2010, 08:35:18 AM
Taking quotes from icr.org and you think they would be a fair commentator. I hear there are some good quotes over on WWW.Darwinissatan.com too.

Now Now Myles just cause ye jumped in with the two wellies once again to get the quick boot in and subsequently got the trousers pulled
down around you ankles ...again  there's no need to rub salt into your wounds!

Why do ye think I didn't post the link to begin with...the predictability of ye ladies jumping all over it for being biased is almost as certain as the arrogance
and elitism of the establishment around here.
If it's not a crazy right wing Fox news link I'm quoting or drawing my views from it's something else  ::)... it's pretty clear the barrels empty when ye have to constantly resort to that shite.

And by the way, I still never did get my question answered as to how the Pied Piper, Hedley and yourself amongst others can quote article after article..
...... after article *yawn* from the most far far left columnists, commentators and reporters to support the Anti West agenda and that's OK  ??? not only that, seems quite welcomed! No bias there...right ::)

What question was this?

I quote from the mainstream media when I put something up here and I try and quote from an informed source - ie, someone who has some experience of the topic I am dealing with. You on the other hand scour the net looking for people as stupid as you are to quote and end up using quotes from a creationist site which intentionally doctored a quote to suit their own beliefs.

On September 09th on this thread you also intentionally twisted the words of the imam only for Deiseach to show you up for what you are when he posted a link to the interview in it entirety.

And then there is this beaut from the Flotila thread where in your warped attempt at expressing your "conflict" on the bombing by Israel of a UN school full of women and children (in reply to Seanie) you call the Palestinians "scum" and the Israeli don't bomb they "counter". Funny enough in that thread you did not reply to me when I pulled you up on it. So were all those women and children in the school scum?

*********************************************************
Quote from: Tyrones own on September 02, 2010, 03:38:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 02, 2010, 09:39:23 AM
Shame on you myles - I'll have to explain it for you. You see because the shells landed outside the school compound its ok that they killed 40 odd people. Israel's military genius is so precise that the knew exactly where the shells would land and they surgically removed 40 odd terrorists who were standing around outside the school. You probably wouldn't understand how this was possible and it might look risky to have shells detonating so close to a school that people in the school compound get injured by the shrapnel but really this was a surgically targetted miliary exercise.   

Myles - there really is no point arguing with someone as deluded as our friend here but remember if this could happen to an Irish guy going over there, what hope is there for the millions who couldn't know any better.

You may be right seanie but i'm conflicted personally as to which is the more dispicable act; Palestinian scum using children and schools as shields from which to shell from or the Israeli's blindly countering
Just have him check his facts before making a fool out of himself next time
********************************************************************
I put all the above here just in case anyone is in any doubt of what grade A gobshite you are. The founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

You sir need to get a life...  :D For the second or third time is it, anyone who uses children or hospitals as human shields are scum of the highest order,
the word counter was used correctly as in they targeted where they were being fired at from... point being, I was high lighting the ridiculous claim put forth by ye charlatans that they did not intentionally target a school that they had just ushered women and children in to, :o spectacular sensationalism would be an enormous understatement here!!!
And for the record it makes no difference to me that it was the IDF..could just as well have been the UDR firing at the RAA should they have been using children as shields...but of course you're blinded to this ::)

QuoteThe founders of this state would turn in their grave to see that type of vermin this place has spawned by times, i'm just glad you are infesting another country now and not this one.

Oh yea, that's another question that others including myself have asked here; what does being Irish entail, what is the code by which we must all think and where is it written... and yet another, who the Fcuk do ye think ye are and where do ye get off with your self righteous elitist view point?

The 'United Nations fact finding mission on the Gaza conflict' found no evidence that Palestinian armed groups used civilians as 'human shields'. Perhaps you have conducted an investigation of your own and found evidence to the contrary?

On the original topic of the thread, I find it highly amusing that America's latter day Know Nothings have paddy immigrants in their ranks.  :D

Of course they didn't as the UN people on the ground reported within the hour that there were no gunmen. But for the heck of it lets assume there were gunmen outside this school, is it still ok to bomb that area and slaughter innocent people? Of course its not.

But heh, TO is so stuck to find something out there to fit with his idiotic opinions that he is now using source material from a Creationism website who in turn are quoting the 1927 nobel winner for literature to back up their own opinions.

TO - I look at the Israeli conflict with palestine their brutal regime, their stealing of land, their starving of the palestinian people and the murdering of men women and children and it rings a bell with me in terms of Irelands history with the English. As far as I am concerned anyone who supports the oppression of a people (whether it be Israel on the Palestinians or Germany against the Jews) is not a republican and does not deserve to hold an Irish passport. But you are a US citizen now aren't you so I suppose you don't need to worry about that.

And is it still OK to use civilians as human shields...of course it's not !!
here ye go..ye really don't have to look very hard at all to find that there
are indeed two sides to all of this...if indeed that's what you're interested in ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Oqo_wmuGo&feature=related

Is that the best you can come up with? From the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs.......FFS :D :D

The 'United Nations fact finding mission on the Gaza conflict' found no evidence that Palestinian armed groups used civilians as 'human shields'.

Sarah Palin is one scary, scary person and as for her followers? A victory mosque? These people need locking up.

Quote from: magpie seanie on September 15, 2010, 08:54:49 AM
Sarah Palin is one scary, scary person and as for her followers? A victory mosque? These people need locking up.

People who preach intolerance usual come a position of complete ignorance. By spreading their version of total intolerance, Pastor Jones and Palin and the like are every bit as dangerous as the various Fundamentalist Islamic Clerics on the other side.

Quote from: muppet on September 16, 2010, 04:04:06 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on September 15, 2010, 08:54:49 AM
Sarah Palin is one scary, scary person and as for her followers? A victory mosque? These people need locking up.

People who preach intolerance usual come a position of complete ignorance. By spreading their version of total intolerance, Pastor Jones and Palin and the like are every bit as dangerous as the various Fundamentalist Islamic Clerics on the other side.

As stupid and all as she is ;) The fact that she's still relentlessly being attacked, ruffling feathers and has the far left running scared, is a pretty good indication that she's doing something right  8)

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 16, 2010, 08:06:48 PM

Quote from: muppet on September 16, 2010, 04:04:06 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on September 15, 2010, 08:54:49 AM
Sarah Palin is one scary, scary person and as for her followers? A victory mosque? These people need locking up.

People who preach intolerance usual come a position of complete ignorance. By spreading their version of total intolerance, Pastor Jones and Palin and the like are every bit as dangerous as the various Fundamentalist Islamic Clerics on the other side.

As stupid and all as she is ;) The fact that she's still relentlessly being attacked, ruffling feathers and has the far left running scared, is a pretty good indication that she's doing something right  8)

WRONG.

Its a sign she is as dangerous and as fundamentalist as those she opposes.

Quote from: Puckoon on September 16, 2010, 08:19:54 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 16, 2010, 08:06:48 PM

Quote from: muppet on September 16, 2010, 04:04:06 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on September 15, 2010, 08:54:49 AM
Sarah Palin is one scary, scary person and as for her followers? A victory mosque? These people need locking up.

People who preach intolerance usual come a position of complete ignorance. By spreading their version of total intolerance, Pastor Jones and Palin and the like are every bit as dangerous as the various Fundamentalist Islamic Clerics on the other side.

As stupid and all as she is ;) The fact that she's still relentlessly being attacked, ruffling feathers and has the far left running scared, is a pretty good indication that she's doing something right  8)

WRONG.

Its a sign she is as dangerous and as fundamentalist as those she opposes.

Maybe so...  but at least we can agree then that the other side are more "dangerous and
fundamentalist" than they are peaceful religious bridge builders....your words not mine!

I don't think anyone has disagreed that the "fundamentalists" on the "other" side are problematic.

You (and Sarah Palin) are the people branding everyone from the other side as dangerous and fundamenalist, while willingly turning a blind eye to the actions of those you are supporting.

The fact that she as a potential vice presidental/presidential candidate opposes the First Amendment beggars belief.

Quote from: Puckoon on September 16, 2010, 08:31:00 PM
I don't think anyone has disagreed that the "fundamentalists" on the "other" side are problematic.

You (and Sarah Palin) are the people branding everyone from the other side as dangerous and fundamenalist, while willingly turning a blind eye to the actions of those you are supporting.

Yes but stay with me here...this thread is about the problematic other side as
You put it trying to build a mosque in NY which is clearly unpopular
with the public.....Palin isn't building anything unpopular with the majority of the people anywhere!

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law "respecting an establishment of religion", impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

Perhaps she is going to "refudiate" it! :D :D

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on September 16, 2010, 08:40:52 PM
The fact that she as a potential vice presidental/presidential candidate opposes the First Amendment beggars belief.

Do keep up hedley....this was never anything to do with rights
the only difference between Palin's angle from what Obama had to
say on it was that she had the balls to come right out and say that in
her opinion, it "should" not be built at that location while obama was
Quite happy to sit side saddle on the fence as usual ::)

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 16, 2010, 08:50:54 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on September 16, 2010, 08:31:00 PM
I don't think anyone has disagreed that the "fundamentalists" on the "other" side are problematic.

You (and Sarah Palin) are the people branding everyone from the other side as dangerous and fundamenalist, while willingly turning a blind eye to the actions of those you are supporting.

Yes but stay with me here...this thread is about the problematic other side as
You put it trying to build a mosque in NY which is clearly unpopular
with the public.....Palin isn't building anything unpopular with the majority of the people anywhere!

The muslim people in and of themselves are not 'the problematic other side', nor did I put it as such. Ease off on the condescension - staying with you isn't the easiest task in the world.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 16, 2010, 09:05:14 PM

Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on September 16, 2010, 08:40:52 PM
The fact that she as a potential vice presidental/presidential candidate opposes the First Amendment beggars belief.

Do keep up hedley....this was never anything to do with rights
the only difference between Palin's angle from what Obama had to
say on it was that she had the balls to come right out and say that in
her opinion, it "should" not be built at that location while obama was
Quite happy to sit side saddle on the fence as usual ::)

So property rights don't exist anymore ::).....or just not for Muslims :-[
Point is you can not tar all Muslims with the fundamentalist brush......no matter how hard you and Sarah try ;)

It has to be said that those defending the right to build a mosque (or whatever) should also be prepared to defend Terry Jones' right to burn Korans. Right?

Quote from: deiseach on September 16, 2010, 09:40:53 PM
It has to be said that those defending the right to build a mosque (or whatever) should also be prepared to defend Terry Jones' right to burn Korans. Right?

Defend his right, sure. He has a constitutional right. I dont think anyone ever denied that.

He also has a constitutional right to arm bears, and to freedom of speech. That doesnt mean its a good idea to walk into Harlem with a gun and start calling people niggers.

Quote from: Puckoon on September 16, 2010, 09:13:02 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 16, 2010, 08:50:54 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on September 16, 2010, 08:31:00 PM
I don't think anyone has disagreed that the "fundamentalists" on the "other" side are problematic.

You (and Sarah Palin) are the people branding everyone from the other side as dangerous and fundamenalist, while willingly turning a blind eye to the actions of those you are supporting.

Yes but stay with me here...this thread is about the problematic other side as
You put it trying to build a mosque in NY which is clearly unpopular
with the public.....Palin isn't building anything unpopular with the majority of the people anywhere!

The muslim people in and of themselves are not 'the problematic other side', nor did I put it as such. Ease off on the condescension - staying with you isn't the easiest task in the world.

Wasn't being condescending....merely quoting your own words
And I'll take the last line as a compliment  8)

Quote from: Puckoon on September 16, 2010, 09:43:56 PM
Defend his right, sure. He has a constitutional right. I dont think anyone ever denied that.

He also has a constitutional right to arm bears, and to freedom of speech. That doesnt mean its a good idea to walk into Harlem with a gun and start calling people niggers.

Could you not make that argument about the mosque?

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 14, 2010, 04:51:29 AM
Throw me a bone FFS, there's only one of me..I do have business to tend to ye know and don't have the luxury of being able to
hand off the baton like ye boy's can one after the other, neither am I unemployed like some here that have fcuk all better to do  :-*

Why bother commenting on something like Darwin then if you don't have the time to make a knowledgeable contribution? No one is forcing you to.

Quote from: deiseach on September 16, 2010, 09:40:53 PM
It has to be said that those defending the right to build a mosque (or whatever) should also be prepared to defend Terry Jones' right to burn Korans. Right?

Exactly.....but the million dollar question is and has been;
SHOULD THEY ?.....not do they have the RIGHT TO!

Quote from: deiseach on September 16, 2010, 09:54:27 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on September 16, 2010, 09:43:56 PM
Defend his right, sure. He has a constitutional right. I don't think anyone ever denied that.

He also has a constitutional right to arm bears, and to freedom of speech. That doesn't mean its a good idea to walk into Harlem with a gun and start calling people niggers.

Could you not make that argument about the mosque?

It depends on the motivation for me in fairness - and I don't know enough about the motivation behind the driving force to build the mosque. One seems to me to stem from a desire to provide a religious community with a community centre and a place of worship - while the other (the Koran burning, before any smart arse twists my words) in my opinion is a destructive, divisive, unashamed incitation of racial hatred.

Being of a deferring personality - if I was in charge of the mosque - I would build it somewhere else - but the bottom line is that you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 16, 2010, 10:03:37 PM

Quote from: deiseach on September 16, 2010, 09:40:53 PM
It has to be said that those defending the right to build a mosque (or whatever) should also be prepared to defend Terry Jones' right to burn Korans. Right?

Exactly.....but the million dollar question is and has been;
SHOULD THEY ?.....not do they have the RIGHT TO!

The question should be "why shouldn't they build it?"

And so far the answers have been rather unconvincing...

Quote from: J70 on September 16, 2010, 10:24:05 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 16, 2010, 10:03:37 PM

Quote from: deiseach on September 16, 2010, 09:40:53 PM
It has to be said that those defending the right to build a mosque (or whatever) should also be prepared to defend Terry Jones' right to burn Korans. Right?

Exactly.....but the million dollar question is and has been;
SHOULD THEY ?.....not do they have the RIGHT TO!

The question should be "why shouldn't they build it?"

And so far the answers have been rather unconvincing...

Right but can we agree to move on from the tired old constitutional rights non argument?
I have stated my piece on it, this Imam sheepishly told CNN during that interview that had he known it would cause so much angst in the placing the Mosque at it's proposed location he would have pressed to have built it else where... but the week before when touring the Arab world, he answered that very question quite differently, that Of course it was always going to be contentious.
So I personally don't believe a word from him and again, if he was in earnest about building bridges, mending relations or to at least show some bit of sensitivity, this was no way to go about it!!!
You'd have to be smoking something to go out of your way not to agree with that,
even in the slightest manner IMO :-\

What the Inam said was he didn't think it would cause THIS much angst. From my understanding and watching the clips he understood people would have strong feelings about it but didn't expect what is going on now.

Why should he be building bridges etc.? What has he done, that he needs to build bridges?

Who should he show sensitivity too? As i asked earlier are their feeling more important than other Americans?

We have had some guy saying he will build a gay strip club accross from the Cultural centre. Would there be as much outrage if that was at Ground Zero?

QuoteWhat the Inam said was he didn't think it would cause THIS much angst. From my understanding and watching the clips he understood people would have strong feelings about it but didn't expect what is going on now.

First part is partially correct in that had he known he would never have pushed for it.. Second part in bold in your understanding is incorrect.... I stated the contrast of what he actually said on both occasions above! He didn't know to Americans but did know to the Arab world ::)

QuoteWhy should he be building bridges etc.? What has he done, that he needs to build bridges?

Already been answered!

Quote
Who should he show sensitivity too? As i asked earlier are their feeling more important than other Americans?

Already covered also!...and do you really have to ask ???

QuoteWe have had some guy saying he will build a gay strip club accross from the Cultural centre. Would there be as much outrage if that was at Ground Zero?

Wise up!

I have re-read all your posts. I think one or two give your opinions on the topic (Reply #92 on: August 28, 2010, 02:40:08 AM). All the rest are shooting down other peoples opinions with patronising comments and smiley face.

If you were a troll you would be the best troll in the world, but your not????

It seems it comes down to this with you. As you are shy to actually give you opinion i will try and see do i get it right and you can say thats my opinion or not.

The stated goal of the "Mosque" by the Inam was to build better relations between Muslims and the West. By choosing this location it is not building better relations. On these grounds as its stated goal is not being achieved it should be moved.

i can see your rational behind that argument. I disagree as i think by moving the "mosque" they are playing into the hands of ignorance.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/ground_zero_mosque_imam_faisal_rauf_o173R8S3JZnekEC4V08H9L
Tut Tut.....The "Slum Lord" can't run a couple of rental properties in a safe and ethical manner nor show up for a court
date for that matter but expects to be responsible for a 100 Million dollar mosque in lower Manhattan  :o

so he is a capitalist....Surely this should improve his standing with the right.



edit: i see from the comments this is not the case. And honestly i've lived in some shitholes and i hate landlords like this. This was running on Fox about two weeks ago. Surely he could have done something about it. For someone the right like to make out has all these secret agendas, you'd think he would be smarter on this issue but then maybe he didn't think he would be under this much scrutiny and did thing he could built a cultural centre without all the fuss.

Quote from: Tyrones own on September 16, 2010, 08:06:48 PM
has the far left running scared

unfortunately the far left and the far right do not run scared they attack without rhyme or reason and will also concoct ridiculous stories that will somehow manage to hit the "news" channels- thanking Jon Stewart for restoring sanity

Quote from: J70 on September 16, 2010, 10:24:05 PM
The question should be "why shouldn't they build it?"

And so far the answers have been rather unconvincing...

A fair point

Moore raises $60,000 for Muslim community center
By BARBARA FERGUSON | ARAB NEWS

Published: Sep 21, 2010 23:52 Updated: Sep 21, 2010 23:52

WASHINGTON: Just when one thought the controversy over the construction of a Muslim community center in New York had died down, documentary filmmaker Michael Moore announced that he has raised over $60,000 for its construction.

On the other side are unconfirmed rumors that some NY construction workers may refuse to work on the proposed community center.

Never one to shy away from controversy, Michael Moore has jumped into fundraising for the Muslim community center which has inflamed passions and protests on opposite ends of the globe, mainly in the Middle East and at the proposed site in New York.

Moore made an appeal to his supporters on the ninth anniversary of 9/11 for donations to the construction project, pledging to match contributions up to $10,000.

Less than 48 hours later, five times that amount had poured into the contribution coffers as hundreds of people from around the country heeded Moore's call.

"Times are tough economically, and supporting our Muslim brothers and sisters is not a popular thing to do right now," Moore said on his blog. "I am truly touched by your generosity — and people around the world will know that you, too, represent an America they rarely get to see."

The proposed mosque, known as Park51, will include a swimming pool and a theater and is expected to cost more than $100 million.

"Blaming a whole group for the actions of just one of that group is anti-American," Moore wrote. "Timothy McVeigh was Catholic. Should Oklahoma City prohibit the building of a Catholic Church near the site of the former federal building that McVeigh blew up?"

In a posting on his website and an interview on CNN, the liberal filmmaker upped the emotional ante on the controversy by saying:  "Don't build it near ground zero, he argued. Build it on ground zero."

Moore framed his argument as a response to the furor the proposed mosque has ignited and what he calls the "bullying" of American Muslims. 

The director insists that Islam was "stolen from the real Muslims" at the Twin Towers, and it should be given back to them on the same spot.

"There is a McDonald's two blocks from Ground Zero. Trust me, McDonald's has killed far more people than the terrorists," Moore said.

"Let's face it, all religions have their whackos....But we don't judge whole religions on just the actions of their whackos."

At the other extreme, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich recently likened the erection of a mosque near ground zero to the placing of a Nazi sign near the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C.

Many Americans agree with Moore about what he called the shameful bullying of American Muslims. They view it as un-American and unnecessary, given that there already is a mosque in that neighborhood and has been for 40 years.

Moore and Gingrich thus become liberal and conservative bookends.

As if that wasn't enough, Woody Allen has spoken up in favor the proposed mosque and community center, condemning both sides for talking about the mosque.

"I'm for the building of the mosque," Allen said. "I think that all the people weighing in on it except for the people that lost someone at Ground Zero" are "exploitative, fake, frauds. They're using it for personal reasons and political reasons."

Allen was at the premiere of his new film, "You Will Meet A Tall Dark Stranger."

Allen said the center would go a long way in building up tolerance and protecting America from another attack.

"If I could speak to people that lost relatives and loved ones, I would try and convince them, if I could, that to build the mosque goes a way towards seeing that this kind of thing doesn't happen again," Allen told Inside Edition. "And to intolerantly not build the mosque is just polarizing and leads to the kind of problems that rake up this type of conflict."

The director is the latest in a line of celebrities to weigh in on the controversial plan. Before Michael Moore announced he was raising money for the project, Donald Trump put in a bid for the property and offered to help build it elsewhere.

On top of all this are unconfirmed rumors on conservative airwaves that construction workers may refuse to build the Park 51 Mosque.

The planned 13-story Park51 has exploded into a national debate after President Obama appeared to offer support for the project.

Despite all the hoopla, it is important to note that the Building Trades Employers' Association has not yet taken a formal position on the project or a potential boycott by union workers.

I  am perplexed that so many of my friends are against a mosque being built near Ground Zero. I think it should be the goal of every American to be tolerant.  The mosque should be  allowed, in an effort to promote tolerance.


That  is why I also propose, that two gay nightclubs be opened next  door to the mosque thereby promoting tolerance within the  mosque. We could call the clubs "The Turban Cowboy" and "You  Mecca Me So Hot". 
 
Next  door should be a butcher shop that specializes in pork and have  an open barbeque with spare ribs as its daily special.   Across the street a very daring lingerie store called  "Victoria Keeps Nothing Secret" with sexy mannequins in the  window modeling the goods. 
 
Next  door to the lingerie shop, there would be room for an Adult Toy Shop (Koranal Knowledge?), its name in flashing neon lights, and on the other side a liquor store, maybe call it "Morehammered"?

Quote from: EC Unique on September 23, 2010, 04:33:04 PM
I  am perplexed that so many of my friends are against a mosque being built near Ground Zero. I think it should be the goal of every American to be tolerant.  The mosque should be  allowed, in an effort to promote tolerance.


That  is why I also propose, that two gay nightclubs be opened next  door to the mosque thereby promoting tolerance within the  mosque. We could call the clubs "The Turban Cowboy" and "You  Mecca Me So Hot". 
 
Next  door should be a butcher shop that specializes in pork and have  an open barbeque with spare ribs as its daily special.   Across the street a very daring lingerie store called  "Victoria Keeps Nothing Secret" with sexy mannequins in the  window modeling the goods. 
 
Next  door to the lingerie shop, there would be room for an Adult Toy Shop (Koranal Knowledge?), its name in flashing neon lights, and on the other side a liquor store, maybe call it "Morehammered"?

That can be found on every block in south Manhattan?

Quote from: muppet on September 23, 2010, 05:00:18 PM
That can be found on every block in south Manhattan?

Come on along and listen to
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