Russia invades Ukraine Feb 2022

[PadraicHenryPearse]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz994d6vqe5o

What's with the recent MSM love in lads? Storylines matching up with your preconceived worldviews?

See my earlier comments about conscription. No one is denying Ukraine uses conscription. When you're facing annihilation from the much larger brutal neighbour next door, desperate measures are called for.

Where are all the comments criticising Russia for using conscription (to destroy another nation) from ye lads?

you spent the last numbers of posts calling it Russian propaganda so I shared another source.. and then you have the nerve to make comments about my preconceived worldview.

if someone was denying that he Russians was using conscription and kidnapping citizens or denied they released people from prison I would share a link to show them it was wrong. I haven't seen people deny that.

the occupation should end, Russia should withdraw and there should be peace... more weapons, more Ukrainians dead won't result in that, in my opinion.

Russia and Ukraine both use conscription. No one here is arguing the point as far as I'm aware. Ukraine to defend itself from annihilation, Russia to wipe the Ukrainian state off the map and forcibly make the Ukrainians realise they are really Russian (genocide).

I've no problem with you using the BBC for a source, I just find it amusing to see the biased untrustworthy western MSM being cited by someone with an obvious anti-US/NATO position on Ukraine. Are the western MSM to be trusted now?

As for the purported videos of press gangs. They are completely useless as a source for anything for the reasons I've already outlined.

I find your stance on arms either completely naive or disingenuous. As others have stated - without western arms Russia would have already defeated Ukraine and set about destroying their society.

As for peace - no Russian invasion -> peace. Russian withdrawal from Ukraine -> peace. They can end it tomorrow.

forcibly make the Ukrainians realise they are really Russian = wrong  forcibly make the Ukrainians fight In the war = ok

I am pro peace which in many ways makes me anti nato/anti Us/anti Russia/ anti Israeli.

I used the BBC as its a source I felt you wouldn't  dispute, but I agree they can be deeply untrustworthy, you can believe what you want that suits your worldview!

Again peace would end the war, its naive imo to think more weapons will end the war.

Conscription is a really horrible thing but let's be clear, it only exists in Ukraine because of the desperate situation Ukraine finds itself in.

Russia is responsible for that situation.

If Ukraine has no army they will lose the war, simple as that - we've all seen what that means, more torture, more rapes, more abduction of children, more murders. Ukraine will cease to exist.

Peace would end the war, sure. But Russia isn't interested in peace, just Ukrainian surrender.

You're blaming the victim. For someone who claims to be anti-Russia you do seem to spend a lot of time attacking Ukraine.

I dont think I've attacked Ukraine or blamed the victim the only thing I have done is suggest that peace is a better option to more War.

I understand that this to you and other means I don't blame Russia for the occupation or believe that they should withdraw and hate Ukraine but that is not true.

it also does not make conscription and some of the methods the Ukrainians are using as any more agreeable.

Russia might be interested in peace but weren't invited to a peace conference, they also set out (totally unrealistic imo) peace negotiation terms, you can completely dismiss it but I don't see war ending this, only negotiations.

[Gerard O’Neill]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz994d6vqe5o

What's with the recent MSM love in lads? Storylines matching up with your preconceived worldviews?

See my earlier comments about conscription. No one is denying Ukraine uses conscription. When you're facing annihilation from the much larger brutal neighbour next door, desperate measures are called for.

Where are all the comments criticising Russia for using conscription (to destroy another nation) from ye lads?

you spent the last numbers of posts calling it Russian propaganda so I shared another source.. and then you have the nerve to make comments about my preconceived worldview.

if someone was denying that he Russians was using conscription and kidnapping citizens or denied they released people from prison I would share a link to show them it was wrong. I haven't seen people deny that.

the occupation should end, Russia should withdraw and there should be peace... more weapons, more Ukrainians dead won't result in that, in my opinion.

Russia and Ukraine both use conscription. No one here is arguing the point as far as I'm aware. Ukraine to defend itself from annihilation, Russia to wipe the Ukrainian state off the map and forcibly make the Ukrainians realise they are really Russian (genocide).

I've no problem with you using the BBC for a source, I just find it amusing to see the biased untrustworthy western MSM being cited by someone with an obvious anti-US/NATO position on Ukraine. Are the western MSM to be trusted now?

As for the purported videos of press gangs. They are completely useless as a source for anything for the reasons I've already outlined.

I find your stance on arms either completely naive or disingenuous. As others have stated - without western arms Russia would have already defeated Ukraine and set about destroying their society.

As for peace - no Russian invasion -> peace. Russian withdrawal from Ukraine -> peace. They can end it tomorrow.

forcibly make the Ukrainians realise they are really Russian = wrong  forcibly make the Ukrainians fight In the war = ok

I am pro peace which in many ways makes me anti nato/anti Us/anti Russia/ anti Israeli.

I used the BBC as its a source I felt you wouldn't  dispute, but I agree they can be deeply untrustworthy, you can believe what you want that suits your worldview!

Again peace would end the war, its naive imo to think more weapons will end the war.

Conscription is a really horrible thing but let's be clear, it only exists in Ukraine because of the desperate situation Ukraine finds itself in.

Russia is responsible for that situation.

If Ukraine has no army they will lose the war, simple as that - we've all seen what that means, more torture, more rapes, more abduction of children, more murders. Ukraine will cease to exist.

Peace would end the war, sure. But Russia isn't interested in peace, just Ukrainian surrender.

You're blaming the victim. For someone who claims to be anti-Russia you do seem to spend a lot of time attacking Ukraine.

I dont think I've attacked Ukraine or blamed the victim the only thing I have done is suggest that peace is a better option to more War.

I understand that this to you and other means I don't blame Russia for the occupation or believe that they should withdraw and hate Ukraine but that is not true.

it also does not make conscription and some of the methods the Ukrainians are using as any more agreeable.

Russia might be interested in peace but weren't invited to a peace conference, they also set out (totally unrealistic imo) peace negotiation terms, you can completely dismiss it but I don't see war ending this, only negotiations.

Have you ever once on this thread attacked Russia for using conscription?

What other methods that Ukraine are using are you referring to?

[theskull1]

I don't really care how the MSM would define your hypothetical scenario tbh.

Do you have any evidence for the purported 'coup' yet apart from a few hang sangwidges? Your sandwich thing is completely bizarre btw.

And I don't really care to converse with you anymore given what I see is your willful blindness to Americas involvement in Ukraine for more than a decade .... let others form their own opinions. I know fcuk all about this conflict other than what I ingest online (from as many different perspectives as I can) but I'm confident enough not to trust what MSM want us to think.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

I haven't defended Russian conscription, you are defending Ukrainian conscription and press gangs/kidnapping.

i was referring to press gangs/kidnapping.

[Gerard O’Neill]

I haven't defended Russian conscription, you are defending Ukrainian conscription and press gangs/kidnapping.

i was referring to press gangs/kidnapping.

I didn't ask you if you'd defended Russian conscription. I asked you if you had ever criticised Russia for using conscription (or press gangs/kidnapping as you prefer to call it). Have you?

[Gerard O’Neill]

I don't really care how the MSM would define your hypothetical scenario tbh.

Do you have any evidence for the purported 'coup' yet apart from a few hang sangwidges? Your sandwich thing is completely bizarre btw.

And I don't really care to converse with you anymore given what I see is your willful blindness to Americas involvement in Ukraine for more than a decade .... let others form their own opinions. I know fcuk all about this conflict other than what I ingest online (from as many different perspectives as I can) but I'm confident enough not to trust what MSM want us to think.

I've asked you for evidence of an American sponsored 'coup' in Ukraine and you've given me...sandwiches.

I've outlined why the people of Ukraine took to the streets on Kyiv to rightfully protest against Yanukovych. You haven't bothered to comment on any of it. Even to disagree or say why you disagree.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

I haven't defended Russian conscription, you are defending Ukrainian conscription and press gangs/kidnapping.

i was referring to press gangs/kidnapping.

I didn't ask you if you'd defended Russian conscription. I asked you if you had ever criticised Russia for using conscription (or press gangs/kidnapping as you prefer to call it). Have you?

no, I haven't criticised it  on this thread as no one was trying to defend it.

[theskull1]

People should look up Victoria Nuland... her career, all the administrations she's served in and what geo political roles she's performed in (spoiler alert... she doesn't make sandwiches)

[Gerard O’Neill]

I haven't defended Russian conscription, you are defending Ukrainian conscription and press gangs/kidnapping.

i was referring to press gangs/kidnapping.

I didn't ask you if you'd defended Russian conscription. I asked you if you had ever criticised Russia for using conscription (or press gangs/kidnapping as you prefer to call it). Have you?

no, I haven't criticised it  on this thread as no one was trying to defend it.

So no then, you haven't thought to criticise Russian conscription. You've just criticised the victim of this particular war, because they've been forced to use conscription by the actions of the Russians.

The choice facing Ukraine is a stark one - use conscription or lose this war. Lose this war and Ukraine ceases to exist.

That's all on Russia.

[Gerard O’Neill]

People should look up Victoria Nuland... her career, all the administrations she's served in and what geo political roles she's performed in (spoiler alert... she doesn't make sandwiches)

Ok so you 'looked her up.' Did you find any evidence of the 'coup' yet?

Any comment on Viktor Yanukovych's contribution to the events of 2014? Ever look him up? 

[theskull1]

One side good.... Other side bad

[PadraicHenryPearse]

I haven't defended Russian conscription, you are defending Ukrainian conscription and press gangs/kidnapping.

i was referring to press gangs/kidnapping.

I didn't ask you if you'd defended Russian conscription. I asked you if you had ever criticised Russia for using conscription (or press gangs/kidnapping as you prefer to call it). Have you?

no, I haven't criticised it  on this thread as no one was trying to defend it.

So no then, you haven't thought to criticise Russian conscription. You've just criticised the victim of this particular war, because they've been forced to use conscription by the actions of the Russians.

The choice facing Ukraine is a stark one - use conscription or lose this war. Lose this war and Ukraine ceases to exist.

That's all on Russia.

As I explained no one was defending the Russians using conscription so there was no need to critise it, you defended conscription and the kidnapping /press gangs that Ukrainians are using so i critised it.  to be clear I critise the Russians for using the same methods. I also think murder is bad for anyone who is worried by my lack of criticism of that!!!!

Ukraine will not cease to exist. If they accepted the shit peace deal that Russia offered it would still exist for example. They shouldnt accept it, Russia should withdraw etc. but there needs to be peace talks not years more war.

[Gerard O’Neill]

One side good.... Other side bad

Did you find any evidence of the 'coup' you mentioned?

Any comment on Yanukovych's corruption, lies, treachery and betrayal of the Ukrainian people by his refusal to sign the deal he negotiated and which the Ukrainian parliament ratified?

[Gerard O’Neill]

I haven't defended Russian conscription, you are defending Ukrainian conscription and press gangs/kidnapping.

i was referring to press gangs/kidnapping.

I didn't ask you if you'd defended Russian conscription. I asked you if you had ever criticised Russia for using conscription (or press gangs/kidnapping as you prefer to call it). Have you?

no, I haven't criticised it  on this thread as no one was trying to defend it.

So no then, you haven't thought to criticise Russian conscription. You've just criticised the victim of this particular war, because they've been forced to use conscription by the actions of the Russians.

The choice facing Ukraine is a stark one - use conscription or lose this war. Lose this war and Ukraine ceases to exist.

That's all on Russia.

As I explained no one was defending the Russians using conscription so there was no need to critise it, you defended conscription and the kidnapping /press gangs that Ukrainians are using so i critised it.  to be clear I critise the Russians for using the same methods. I also think murder is bad for anyone who is worried by my lack of criticism of that!!!!

Ukraine will not cease to exist. If they accepted the shit peace deal that Russia offered it would still exist for example. They shouldnt accept it, Russia should withdraw etc. but there needs to be peace talks not years more war.

Your position is some sort of imaginary moral high ground that takes no account of the circumstances facing Ukraine on the ground.

You also equate Russia's use of conscription to execute their war of choice with the Ukrainians who are forced to use conscription. This is a false equivalence and is nothing more than equating victim with aggressor.

Russia's offer of peace is not serious which at least you acknowledge. Russia already 'froze' this conflict for 8 years, freezing it again for more 'peace' talks will achieve nothing more than allowing Russia to build up again for the next offensive. Ask the Chechens, they already found out.

[theskull1]

Gérard who joined this GAA forum just over two weeks ago to primarily discuss this topic wants to hawkishly convince you that Ukrainian men need to keeping fighting and dying in this egged on war rather than their leaders try to work for some sort peace deal. You have to wonder what drives people