Russia invades Ukraine Feb 2022

[Gerard O’Neill]

Gérard who joined this GAA forum just over two weeks ago to primarily discuss this topic wants to hawkishly convince you that Ukrainian men need to keeping fighting and dying in this egged on war rather than their leaders try to work for some sort peace deal. You have to wonder what drives people

Ukrainian men are fighting and dying because Russia invaded their country.

I am trying to defend Ukraine as best I can from Russian propaganda. The excuses that Russia have made for this invasion - coup, Nazis, NATO etc. are easily countered because they don't stand up to even basic scrutiny.

I understand that the pro-Russian position is deeply entrenched in people's minds after years of social media conditioning. I understand that I will never change YOUR mind but I don't see why I or others should just say nothing when you present the pro-Russian position with nothing to back it up.

You keep saying there was a coup. You haven't presented any evidence of that. I've asked you for comment on Yanukovych's betrayal - you've said nothing. Would you care to make a comment on it now? I am genuinely interested on what you might have to say about it.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

I haven't defended Russian conscription, you are defending Ukrainian conscription and press gangs/kidnapping.

i was referring to press gangs/kidnapping.

I didn't ask you if you'd defended Russian conscription. I asked you if you had ever criticised Russia for using conscription (or press gangs/kidnapping as you prefer to call it). Have you?

no, I haven't criticised it  on this thread as no one was trying to defend it.

So no then, you haven't thought to criticise Russian conscription. You've just criticised the victim of this particular war, because they've been forced to use conscription by the actions of the Russians.

The choice facing Ukraine is a stark one - use conscription or lose this war. Lose this war and Ukraine ceases to exist.

That's all on Russia.

As I explained no one was defending the Russians using conscription so there was no need to critise it, you defended conscription and the kidnapping /press gangs that Ukrainians are using so i critised it.  to be clear I critise the Russians for using the same methods. I also think murder is bad for anyone who is worried by my lack of criticism of that!!!!

Ukraine will not cease to exist. If they accepted the shit peace deal that Russia offered it would still exist for example. They shouldnt accept it, Russia should withdraw etc. but there needs to be peace talks not years more war.

Your position is some sort of imaginary moral high ground that takes no account of the circumstances facing Ukraine on the ground.

You also equate Russia's use of conscription to execute their war of choice with the Ukrainians who are forced to use conscription. This is a false equivalence and is nothing more than equating victim with aggressor.

Russia's offer of peace is not serious which at least you acknowledge. Russia already 'froze' this conflict for 8 years, freezing it again for more 'peace' talks will achieve nothing more than allowing Russia to build up again for the next offensive. Ask the Chechens, they already found out.

My position takes account of Ukrainians more than you appeared to do as you are OK with press gangs/kidnapping and senting them off to die.

I take a similar position with the Palestinians. I have not seen you advocate for them to continue the fighting and receive weapons and funding from the West. Like most people you are likely calling for a ceasefire and a negotiated peace, its not a moral high ground.

Forcing people through press gangs/kidnapping is wrong, the reasons for it don't matter, its a Ukraine/Russian choice to make and they both are equally wrong. It is a different matter to equate occupier and occupied, there is no equivalent there.

your solution is more war... imo that's not a good solution.

[Milltown Row2]

They'd have to stop together because if the Ukrainians don't use conscription then the Russians will just walk on through, like the Israelis are doing at the minute, an invading country.

Russia developing better links now with North Korea, seems like a good partnership 

[theskull1]

Gerard thinks there's only two positions you can hold .. you're either pro Ukraine or pro Russian. Pick a side an stick to it. No nuance please.

Reminds me of GW Bush before invading Afghanistan "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

[theskull1]

Doesn't look like Russia have intentions to walk through the whole country MR so I don't think that's a reasonable argument to make

June 2024: Russia issues fresh demands to Ukraine to end the war, including ceding more land, withdrawing troops deeper into Ukraine, and dropping its NATO bid.


This conflict will have to escalate massively for Ukraine to attempt to get their Russian occupied land back and I worry what that will look like both for the local region/population and the wider world.

[Gerard O’Neill]

I haven't defended Russian conscription, you are defending Ukrainian conscription and press gangs/kidnapping.

i was referring to press gangs/kidnapping.

I didn't ask you if you'd defended Russian conscription. I asked you if you had ever criticised Russia for using conscription (or press gangs/kidnapping as you prefer to call it). Have you?

no, I haven't criticised it  on this thread as no one was trying to defend it.

So no then, you haven't thought to criticise Russian conscription. You've just criticised the victim of this particular war, because they've been forced to use conscription by the actions of the Russians.

The choice facing Ukraine is a stark one - use conscription or lose this war. Lose this war and Ukraine ceases to exist.

That's all on Russia.

As I explained no one was defending the Russians using conscription so there was no need to critise it, you defended conscription and the kidnapping /press gangs that Ukrainians are using so i critised it.  to be clear I critise the Russians for using the same methods. I also think murder is bad for anyone who is worried by my lack of criticism of that!!!!

Ukraine will not cease to exist. If they accepted the shit peace deal that Russia offered it would still exist for example. They shouldnt accept it, Russia should withdraw etc. but there needs to be peace talks not years more war.

Your position is some sort of imaginary moral high ground that takes no account of the circumstances facing Ukraine on the ground.

You also equate Russia's use of conscription to execute their war of choice with the Ukrainians who are forced to use conscription. This is a false equivalence and is nothing more than equating victim with aggressor.

Russia's offer of peace is not serious which at least you acknowledge. Russia already 'froze' this conflict for 8 years, freezing it again for more 'peace' talks will achieve nothing more than allowing Russia to build up again for the next offensive. Ask the Chechens, they already found out.

My position takes account of Ukrainians more than you appeared to do as you are OK with press gangs/kidnapping and senting them off to die.

I take a similar position with the Palestinians. I have not seen you advocate for them to continue the fighting and receive weapons and funding from the West. Like most people you are likely calling for a ceasefire and a negotiated peace, its not a moral high ground.

Forcing people through press gangs/kidnapping is wrong, the reasons for it don't matter, its a Ukraine/Russian choice to make and they both are equally wrong. It is a different matter to equate occupier and occupied, there is no equivalent there.

your solution is more war... imo that's not a good solution.

Your position is not based on reality or the actual situation facing Ukraine on the ground.

Your position is that "both are equally wrong" - I've explained why they are not with regards to the reasons why they are using conscription.

You position doesn't take into account what has happened in areas under Russian occupation.

Your position does not take into account that one side is waging war upon the other and can stop it any time.

Russia is not serious about peace and will use peace talks for a breather. Ukraine knows this. The Ukrainians have said they are not freezing this conflict for the next generation to fight again in 5-10-15 years time.

The reality of the situation facing Ukraine is this:
Russia is waging a war of annihilation.
No weapons for Ukraine = Ukrainian defeat.
No conscription for Ukraine = Ukrainian defeat.
Ceasefire = freezing the conflict = giving Russia a breather = probable Ukrainian defeat later (with lots of online propaganda explaining why they had to do it. Again)

[Gerard O’Neill]

Gerard thinks there's only two positions you can hold .. you're either pro Ukraine or pro Russian. Pick a side an stick to it. No nuance please.

Reminds me of GW Bush before invading Afghanistan "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

When you're claiming to be middle of the road and spending all your time on a thread discussing the topic and repeating pro-Russian propaganda, I'll draw my own conclusion thanks.

[Milltown Row2]

Gerard thinks there's only two positions you can hold .. you're either pro Ukraine or pro Russian. Pick a side an stick to it. No nuance please.

Reminds me of GW Bush before invading Afghanistan "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

If they have no intent of going through the country then why are they bombing the cities they are not occupying?

The world is in a very strange place at the minute, hopefully common sense prevails and countries and world leaders can get round a table and thrash out realistic targets/goals/settlements.

Just rocking up and invading countries either proxy wars or just in your face invading really is the stuff of history, and here we are, still doing it.

Today, there are more than 110 armed conflicts. Some of these conflicts make the headlines, others do not. Some of them started recently, while others have lasted for more than 50 years.

Probably 2 of them make the headlines

[PadraicHenryPearse]

They'd have to stop together because if the Ukrainians don't use conscription then the Russians will just walk on through, like the Israelis are doing at the minute, an invading country.

Russia developing better links now with North Korea, seems like a good partnership 

Should someone tell the Palestinians that conscription would stop Israel!! (I know that wasn't your actual point)

[Gerard O’Neill]

Doesn't look like Russia have intentions to walk through the whole country MR so I don't think that's a reasonable argument to make

June 2024: Russia issues fresh demands to Ukraine to end the war, including ceding more land, withdrawing troops deeper into Ukraine, and dropping its NATO bid.


This conflict will have to escalate massively for Ukraine to attempt to get their Russian occupied land back and I worry what that will look like both for the local region/population and the wider world.

Like I said, calling for Ukrainian surrender, so not a serious proposal.

Russia definitely have intentions to walk through the whole country, they've just had to scale back their ambitions for the time being.

Any comment on Yanukovych? Any evidence for the coup?

[Gerard O’Neill]

They'd have to stop together because if the Ukrainians don't use conscription then the Russians will just walk on through, like the Israelis are doing at the minute, an invading country.

Russia developing better links now with North Korea, seems like a good partnership 

With respect MR, they don't have to stop together, Russia can pull it's troops back to Russia anytime they like and this war is over. Russia can decide to end the war. Ukraine cannot decide to end the war.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

pointless, I am for peace, a negotiated peace. I am against conscription, kidnapping/press gangs.

calling for that does not make me pro russia/ a tankie or whatever other label people want to throw around.

You are for more war and depending on realities on the ground are for conscription, kidnapping/press gangs.

[Gerard O’Neill]

pointless, I am for peace, a negotiated peace. I am against conscription, kidnapping/press gangs.

calling for that does not make me pro russia/ a tankie or whatever other label people want to throw around.

You are for more war and depending on realities on the ground are for conscription, kidnapping/press gangs.

Your 'peace' = the defeat of Ukraine and the destruction of their nation. You're either completely naive or being disingenuous.

Russia can end the war tomorrow PHP, with the Russian Federation fully intact, right or wrong?

[PadraicHenryPearse]

pointless, I am for peace, a negotiated peace. I am against conscription, kidnapping/press gangs.

calling for that does not make me pro russia/ a tankie or whatever other label people want to throw around.

You are for more war and depending on realities on the ground are for conscription, kidnapping/press gangs.

Your 'peace' = the defeat of Ukraine and the destruction of their nation. You're either completely naive or being disingenuous.

Russia can end the war tomorrow PHP, with the Russian Federation fully intact, right or wrong?

I've answered enough of  my your questions and you have ignoree all of mine. you now try and tell me what I mean by peace when I have never mentioned any of that...

pointless discussing with you are it was with all your other usernames.

[theskull1]

Recent joined Gerard isn't much interested in the GAA when you look at his post history. Hmmm