Armagh will never achieve anything with him in charge so why waste another year before getting rid of him. Every year that goes by Stevy Ciaran McKeever etc are a year older. The county board need to act now, and someone has to ask the question how he was ever appointment, because his record was brutal!
I'd like everyone who agrees with sacking him to first pinpoint what they would regard as a successful 2011 campaign for Armagh.
I think Armagh people need a reality check. Armagh had an exceptional period over the last decase, but they need to set their sights a bit lower for the next few years.
Why wud we set our sights lower most of the members of our squad have wonall ireland senior medals all ireland under 21 medals ulster 21 and all ireland minor medals. We shud be challenging for ulster title and gettin to at least all ireland semi.
Quote from: tevez on February 28, 2011, 10:45:11 PM
Why wud we set our sights lower most of the members of our squad have wonall ireland senior medals all ireland under 21 medals ulster 21 and all ireland minor medals. We shud be challenging for ulster title and gettin to at least all ireland semi.
Underage success guarantees nothing.
Id like to no who they would get to replace him
Firstly mcgeeney doesn't want it as he knows they aren't good enough to win anything and his reputation as a playing legend will be tarnished. Don't forget he also was bt by wiclow in the championship. We sacked a manager for such a thing. He also has struggled to take kildare out of division 2
Justin mcnulty was there last year, did he not have a say or wha. a couple of decent results in division 2 doesn't make him a genius.
Brian mcalindin couldnt win it for yas when yas had a good team, what chance now.
I think you'll find that the only players in the squad who've won an AI are McDonnell and Clarke.
Having a large group of players with minor and u21 medals only puts you on a par (or worse) with Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Galway and Dublin. That's a lot of teams who 'should be at least in the semis'.
Players are def there if we had the right man at the helm. Everyone in the county know who he is everyone of the players want him and yet were stuck with a boy whos been a total failure as a manager!
But most importantly he doesnt want you
Quote from: tevez on February 28, 2011, 10:52:18 PM
Players are def there if we had the right man at the helm. Everyone in the county know who he is everyone of the players want him and yet were stuck with a boy whos been a total failure as a manager!
the players are definitely there to do what Tevez? Be serious now.
While I agree that POR was not a great choice originally and nothing in the past 15 months or so has changed my mind ( particularly the sense of drift during games) this is not the Premiership and POR should at least be given this year to see if any sense of headway is being made.
Who would replace him at this time of year?
We have 5/6 top quality players, a few more decent players ( who could improve) and possibly 3/4 places up for grabs.
There is no great strengh in depth unfortunately.
A decent season would be an AI QF or Ulster final appearance with some good dsiplays along the way and avoiding relegation.
We are still in the top 10 teams in the country even though we are in transition.
I don't know what eejit would take the job until the level of expectation among fans (some) is lowered to a realistic level.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 28, 2011, 10:38:13 PM
I'd like everyone who agrees with sacking him to first pinpoint what they would regard as a successful 2011 campaign for Armagh.
Im not exactly calling for his head but I feel with POR in charge we wont have an overly great 2011 and 2012 will likely be poor as well as one of two scenarios will happen then either POR is still in charge and still not good enough or a new manager will have been appointed and will need time to develop the team his way. Thats why I feel at this stage if it were possible to get the right man into the job now that would be preferable to waiting till the end of the year. However its unlikely we could do that as all those managers of the necessary calibre are by and large involved with other teams.
For me POR has showed over the last 15 months that he is simply not good enough for IC management. Armagh have not got a bad group of players certainly not in the top 4 of the country but still not a bad group with plenty of potential to develop. That said with the exception of maybe 2 games in the last 15 months Armagh as a team have seemed completely lacking in a game plan and have been tactically exposed on countless occasions and for that POR has to take the rap. So whilst I woudnt call for his head just now simply because of a lack of alternatives I do feel POR is a lame duck manager and that is of no use whatsoever to Armagh.
Also the idea that McGeeney didnt take the job because he didnt think Armagh were good enough shows an ignorance of the situation or else great mind reading abilities.
Quote from: David McKeown on March 01, 2011, 08:18:35 AM
Also the idea that McGeeney didnt take the job because he didnt think Armagh were good enough shows an ignorance of the situation or else great mind reading abilities.
McGeeney is building up a good reputation as a manager with Kildare. At this stage in his management career, why would he risk jeopardising that by taking on Armagh?
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 01, 2011, 08:29:16 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on March 01, 2011, 08:18:35 AM
Also the idea that McGeeney didnt take the job because he didnt think Armagh were good enough shows an ignorance of the situation or else great mind reading abilities.
McGeeney is building up a good reputation as a manager with Kildare. At this stage in his management career, why would he risk jeopardising that by taking on Armagh?
I wasnt talking about the present I was responding to comments on other threads that he didnt take the Armagh job because he didnt think he was good enough. I have no idea whether or not he'd want the job at the current time
How many of those lined out for Armagh on saturday night would make it onto Tyrone's team come championship?
Armagh are a very ordinary team at the moment and our expectations should be based on that fact.
I don't agree with giving POR the road at this point.
Armagh, in the later years of Joe Mor and the reign of Peter McDonnell, had become way too negative and there was a paralysis by analysis. We were incredibly hard to watch. In a way POR brought a refreshing change as he abandoned that mindset and allowed the players to express themselves. I agree, however, that he is naive and it is obvious we are going into games without any gameplan whatsoever. He has gone to the other extreme. He will have to address that if we are to achieve what this team is capable of. If he doesn't show some semblance of a game plan to get the best of this panel then his position would have to be reviewed at the end of the season.
As others have said, Armagh fans have to be realistic and set our goals at staying in Division 1 (which would be a hell of an achievement without a full panel of players to call on) and an AIQF. Anything after that is a bonus.
All well and good getting shot of POR, who is going to take the job? There's no pleasing some people. I would like to think that some progress has been made from when he took over in the form of promotion. He is working with a very limited squad for a Division 1/'top 10 in the country' side, clearly he wasn't tasked with picking it so people can hardly come on here saying he's tactically naive, he doesn't even seem to have a say who to pick. I agree sometimes the team look clueless and that can be directed straight at his door, but IMO the problems are deeper than that.
Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 01, 2011, 11:25:07 AM
All well and good getting shot of POR, who is going to take the job? There's no pleasing some people. I would like to think that some progress has been made from when he took over in the form of promotion. He is working with a very limited squad for a Division 1/'top 10 in the country' side, clearly he wasn't tasked with picking it so people can hardly come on here saying he's tactically naive, he doesn't even seem to have a say who to pick. I agree sometimes the team look clueless and that can be directed straight at his door, but IMO the problems are deeper than that.
Fitz - you're saying POR didn't pick the squad and he has no say in the team?
The reality is that POR is a poor manager - particularly at county level. He doesn't understand the modern game and how to get the best out of players not how to counter opposition strengths. He's also saddled with an assistant that is of no use in improving those weaknesses.
We find ourselves somehow in a position that is unfathomable - The manager is poor. The players didn't want him from the start and don't respect him in any shape or form. They also rejected his assistant. They are stuck with it because they kicked up too much of a stink with the appointment.
The only means of remedying the situation is through the county board and we know their record with backbone. There is no merit in jettisoning this management team now - unless McAlinden would be willing to take over after the u21 campaign - but change needs to come at the end of the championship for the good of armagh football.
Lets get a few things straight.
1. McGeeney was going to be part of the management team after Joe Kernan with Paul Grimley but they were shafted by the county board. McGeeney would love to be managing Armagh but has no trust in county board now which is going to be a problem in the future. He still stays in contact with a lot of the players and the players would do anything to have him in charge, but because of our useless county board he is not.
2. The players have no respect for Paddy O'Rourke and didnt want him. They think he is useless and know there going nowhere with him in charge.
3. Maybe I was a bit optimistic saying we had to make all ireland semis, but there must be a major target. Do you think Kildare are targeting anything less thatn an all ireland semi. There is noone can say that Kildares set of players are far better than our own. I know from talking to a few of the players they would feel they are a better team than Kildare.
4. There are no great teams in Ireland at the minute apart maybe from Cork, that means that if you have a team who is trained right, who have a good gameplan, and that are highly motivated and have goood men on the line to see and make the changes needed quickly, then anything is possible. This is why I said all ireland semi should be the aim.
That man is certainly not POR. He can not inspire/motivate the team and he doesnt have the gameplan and is just not a great manager, which has been proven. Great player not great manager!
I dont think anyone can disagree with the points made here
Quote from: tevez on March 01, 2011, 12:27:21 PM
2. The players have no respect for Paddy O'Rourke and didnt want him. They think he is useless and know there going nowhere with him in charge.
How do you know this? its been said a couple of times now and was wondering is there truth to it
Was stevie mac not one of the main men who was integral in getting POR the job last year?? Id love to know all these players that want rid of him, wouldnt be stephen Forker, Michael O'Rourke or Ryan Henderson by any chance?!?
It was also stated previously that POR is a complete failure as a manager. Let it be stated that he has won more as a manager than the great one McGeeney
Quote from: tevez on March 01, 2011, 12:27:21 PM
Lets get a few things straight.
1. McGeeney was going to be part of the management team after Joe Kernan with Paul Grimley but they were shafted by the county board. McGeeney would love to be managing Armagh but has no trust in county board now which is going to be a problem in the future. He still stays in contact with a lot of the players and the players would do anything to have him in charge, but because of our useless county board he is not.
2. The players have no respect for Paddy O'Rourke and didnt want him. They think he is useless and know there going nowhere with him in charge.
3. Maybe I was a bit optimistic saying we had to make all ireland semis, but there must be a major target. Do you think Kildare are targeting anything less thatn an all ireland semi. There is noone can say that Kildares set of players are far better than our own. I know from talking to a few of the players they would feel they are a better team than Kildare.
4. There are no great teams in Ireland at the minute apart maybe from Cork, that means that if you have a team who is trained right, who have a good gameplan, and that are highly motivated and have goood men on the line to see and make the changes needed quickly, then anything is possible. This is why I said all ireland semi should be the aim.
That man is certainly not POR. He can not inspire/motivate the team and he doesnt have the gameplan and is just not a great manager, which has been proven. Great player not great manager!
I dont think anyone can disagree with the points made here
Quote from: tevez on March 01, 2011, 12:27:21 PM
Lets get a few things straight.
1. McGeeney was going to be part of the management team after Joe Kernan with Paul Grimley but they were shafted by the county board. McGeeney would love to be managing Armagh but has no trust in county board now which is going to be a problem in the future. He still stays in contact with a lot of the players and the players would do anything to have him in charge, but because of our useless county board he is not.
2. The players have no respect for Paddy O'Rourke and didnt want him. They think he is useless and know there going nowhere with him in charge.
3. Maybe I was a bit optimistic saying we had to make all ireland semis, but there must be a major target. Do you think Kildare are targeting anything less thatn an all ireland semi. There is noone can say that Kildares set of players are far better than our own. I know from talking to a few of the players they would feel they are a better team than Kildare.
4. There are no great teams in Ireland at the minute apart maybe from Cork, that means that if you have a team who is trained right, who have a good gameplan, and that are highly motivated and have goood men on the line to see and make the changes needed quickly, then anything is possible. This is why I said all ireland semi should be the aim.
That man is certainly not POR. He can not inspire/motivate the team and he doesnt have the gameplan and is just not a great manager, which has been proven. Great player not great manager!
I dont think anyone can disagree with the points made here
Agree with a lot of what you say tevez and i am certainly not a fan of por and mike mcgurn in particular, however Stevey for one seems to be a major fan of O'Rourke so thats one senior player that has the respect for him anyway. In the past our county board could have been regarded as useless however i know Paul Duggan and a better Gael and more honourable man you will not meet. I also know for a fact that he would have a very good relationship with the geezer since teaching him briefly in his Abbey days. So if geezer was interested im sure something could be worked out between him and the county board.
However i feel this would be a stupid time (Mid Season) to change our management team, we also have some very average players on the squad at present particulary in the forwards category. This has to be taken into account when judging our performances this year. Hate to say it but we really need the cross boys and fingers crossed ronan back asap.
Quote from: DuffleKing on March 01, 2011, 12:00:50 PM
Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 01, 2011, 11:25:07 AM
All well and good getting shot of POR, who is going to take the job? There's no pleasing some people. I would like to think that some progress has been made from when he took over in the form of promotion. He is working with a very limited squad for a Division 1/'top 10 in the country' side, clearly he wasn't tasked with picking it so people can hardly come on here saying he's tactically naive, he doesn't even seem to have a say who to pick. I agree sometimes the team look clueless and that can be directed straight at his door, but IMO the problems are deeper than that.
Fitz - you're saying POR didn't pick the squad and he has no say in the team?
The reality is that POR is a poor manager - particularly at county level. He doesn't understand the modern game and how to get the best out of players not how to counter opposition strengths. He's also saddled with an assistant that is of no use in improving those weaknesses.
We find ourselves somehow in a position that is unfathomable - The manager is poor. The players didn't want him from the start and don't respect him in any shape or form. They also rejected his assistant. They are stuck with it because they kicked up too much of a stink with the appointment.
The only means of remedying the situation is through the county board and we know their record with backbone. There is no merit in jettisoning this management team now - unless McAlinden would be willing to take over after the u21 campaign - but change needs to come at the end of the championship for the good of armagh football.
I think DM has been picking the players or at least recommending them, judging by some of the inclusions this year and last. This was my opinion last year and it has certainly been reinforced this year. I am not for one minute denying that there are significant weaknesses in the management; but that the blame for these is not solely on POR's door.
Someone mentioned on one of the other threads about a forwards coach, he got ridiculed by some mountainman from Down but there is certainly merit in that idea - our forward play is useless, the players just don't know how to attack as a unit. No one showing for the ball, no one running off shoulders, playing the ball into the corners everytime either relying on McDonnell scoring from a ridiculous angle or else someone else to put it wide...
That said I think we have good forwards but they've been given a lot of responsibility - MOR at CHF, he has talent but it's still a lot to ask for someone relatively inexperienced to play that position at the top level. Grugan - he's new, young and raw. A lot of pressure on him and bear in mind he has been playing away with the U21s aswell - he's flat out. BJP is only new, getting to know the rest etc and seemingly still unfit. So I can understand when our forward line is relying on Stevie so much and aren't contributing or playing as well together. I also acknowledge that it is POR's duty to remedy this, but we are missing Cross players and Clarke. When they return there will be more options and I expect things to improve.
All this talk about Armagh being crap - what do you reckon the 1st round score will be?
Do you seriously reckon Armagh will be trounced? Do you think Paddy O'Rourke or the players will let that happen?
I reckon three to four in it, but I honestly can't say which team will win.
Down stuffed Armagh last year in the Marshes, yet Armagh made them look very ordinary in the final.
A lot of points raised here with regardes POR but very little attention and focus has been placed on the players. The bottom line is whether the players agree with the selection of manager or not they will sit down at the start of the year, look the man in the face as he tells them the plans for the year and all nod like dogs. If they don't want to play then they should have the balls to say and leave the panel there are plenty of other lads in the county that would give an arm and a leg for a call up.
I will say that there are lads on the panel that are very ordinary players that have been selected on name or past reputation POR is guilty of this but i guess it is a habit right throughout Ireland. I have watched Armagh over the last two years and it's true they have been in transition. Part of transition is improvement. When i think back to the day in Croke Park that Wexford beat Armagh and i look at the team today that is really 3 competitive games into the session i think we have improved in a lot of departments. 3 competitives games into the session and we have been beaten by decent Down and Dublin teams. We were in no way destroyed in these games and with the Cross additions and a bit more structure Armagh will be a decent enough side. Folks on here are throwing names about but the truth is Mc Alinden well underachieved with Armagh and Mc Geeney is elsewhere . POR is the man in charge at the moment and he deserves the respect that any gael should get for giving up his time and trying to steer our county to some sort of success. This whole negativity based on rumour and hearsay won't help Armagh in any way.
POR was not successful with Down (apart from Tyrone being very lucky to get a draw in the Ulster final in 03) but his club record is up there with most. Ulster final replay with Burren, Castleblaney side that beat Cross by 10 points. Benny Coulter has said O'Rourke is the best manager he ever had.
A lot of Downs failure with O'Rourke I would say is down to Pete McGrath, he was still bringing Micky Linden on as sub in 02 and was always trying squeeze 1 more year out of the 94 team. O'Rourke tried to bring in a lot of new players and build the team from scratch, it didn't really work.
I don't know if O'Rourke is a tactical genius or not but he never seems to get much slack on here, even after winning the division 2 final and playing fairly well against Dublin in the championship. They have had a couple of tight losses in division 1 so far and that is without the 2 Clarkes and Aaron Kernan, these players must be worth a few points in any game. Surely the Armagh fans would be better getting behind the team and looking for 2 points against Mayo and Galway to stay up this year.
McGeeney seems to be the messiah at the moment but they lost to Louth and if they had lost to Antrim in the drawn game he mightn't have been considered such a tactical genius after a poor enough league, he might even have been available as the next Armagh manager.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/painful-return-to-armagh-for-mcgeeney-14721623.html
Maiden that last post hits the nail square on the head 100% spot on
Paddy probably isnt a BAD manager, he was always going to be under pressure going to Armagh from Down. That's not the issue. There is a much more serious problem there which has continued from last year. Players were not happy with Justin McNultys overly defensive tactics, they were also not happy the lack of forwards tactics, they were not happy with Mike McGurn (Strength coach) taking training sessions. Can you see where I'm going here?
Paddy just stands back and lets all this happen much to the frustration of the players. As a result there is now a serious lack of respect for POR. That is a major issue in any setup.
There seems to be a lot of people speaking on the behalf of the players here
Would por not be under a bit of pressure to use mccurn as much as possible given his reported annual salary. Stil that doesn't excuse mccurn taking football sessions. I thought Sean o hare was the football trainer this year anyway, he seemed to take the 6 on 6 football drill before the match on Saturday night.
I do struggle to believe that the players don't respect por. He may have faults but he was a players manager with down, as said before benny and the rest of the boys all loved him and that may have hurt him in the end as he grew too close to the players and was too loyal to some. I duno maybe its different with the orchard men
Quote from: ogshead on March 02, 2011, 10:54:01 PM
There seems to be a lot of people speaking on the behalf of the players here
Was thinking that myself and wondering how they are coming to these conclusions that the players have no respect for the management. I would say (pure speculation) if someone has been talking out of school that it is only a small select few that are disgruntled and the majority of lads are singing from the same hymn sheet
This is a sick thread, I must say on reading this thread my immediate reaction was that some of you boys don't deserve a successful county team, truly pathetic
Quote from: Man Marker on March 03, 2011, 11:41:51 AM
This is a sick thread, I must say on reading this thread my immediate reaction was that some of you boys don't deserve a successful county team, truly pathetic
As I posted earlier I don't agree with the thrust of the thread but Jaysus MM that reaction is a little OTT. :o
Whether you think it sick or not people are entitled to their opinion. That includes whether or not a manager must stay or go. IMO POR has done nothing wrong to deserve this criticism. He may have made a few mistakes but show me a manager that hasn't. I think some of the things are disrespectful but the majority of the posts are based on football. But anything personal is out of line.
there is an old saying that,, louse lips sink ships ,, lets get behind armagh and por this kind of bickering helps nobody only the opposition
from 99 until 2002 armagh were considered an average team yet during that period only teams that went on to win sam beat them in the latter stages of the championship. defeat is a little easier to swallow when the teams are meath,galway,and kerry. about lads not making it on to the starting 15 in other counties think of ger reid, cathal o'rourke, hughesy,andrew mccann, this 'not good enough' argument doesn't hold water these lads took a great kerry team to the pin of their collar- twice! in games that made it into the top ten games of all time. the truth is 'por is poor' he has failed to light a fire under what on paper should be a great team. I've made a point of finding out exactly what kind of manager mcalinden is and I'm told that the young lads would go through brick walls for him. I've watch under 21 teams playing and they are much better tactically and structurally yet when they make the county seniors they are like headless chickens. so whats happening- peter mc donnell and por. are we to believe that a manager like micky harte wouldn't bring us better results... of course he would.
given the record of our county board as previously posted nothing will happen, for now. but they are not deaf, the last match i attended armagh won and i could hear armagh supporters shouting 'go way home to burren' this stuff doesn't go on for long these guys are hardened armagh supporters and wont be behind the door in letting members of the county board know about their disgust at what can rightly be seen as a failure to appoint a decent manager. paddy has to go before we become cavan
POR is on a hiding to nothing, even if he won the all ireland there are people within Armagh that will never accept him. We have some good players and some very ordinary players, on our day we are capable of beating anyone but currently i believe we are a few players short of a good team.
I can tell you one thing POR will go at the end of this year and the management team of Brian McAlinden, Liam McCorry and Paul McGrane will take the seniors next season...watch this space...
P.S. I wish POR the best of luck this year and hope he makes a few fellas eat their words
Quote from: lawnseed on March 06, 2011, 01:27:20 PM
from 99 until 2002 armagh were considered an average team yet during that period only teams that went on to win sam beat them in the latter stages of the championship. defeat is a little easier to swallow when the teams are meath,galway,and kerry. about lads not making it on to the starting 15 in other counties think of ger reid, cathal o'rourke, hughesy,andrew mccann, this 'not good enough' argument doesn't hold water these lads took a great kerry team to the piPn of their collar- twice! in games that made it into the top ten games of all time. the truth is 'por is poor' he has failed to light a fire under what on paper should be a great team. I've made a point of finding out exactly what kind of manager mcalinden is and I'm told that the young lads would go through brick walls for him. I've watch under 21 teams playing and they are much better tactically and structurally yet when they make the county seniors they are like headless chickens. so whats happening- peter mc donnell and por. are we to believe that a manager like micky harte wouldn't bring us better results... of course he would.
given the record of our county board as previously posted nothing will happen, for now. but they are not deaf, the last match i attended armagh won and i could hear armagh supporters shouting 'go way home to burren' this stuff doesn't go on for long these guys are hardened armagh supporters and wont be behind the door in letting members of the county board know about their disgust at what can rightly be seen as a failure to appoint a decent manager. paddy has to go before we become cavan
With respect, I reckon you're spoofing on that one. U21 sides aren't together for long enough and don't play enough matches to develop much in the way of meaningful tactical systems. So the claim of being able to discern what little system may be in place, from often as little as one match, is highly doubtful. For instance, I'd love to hear a tactical dissection of our U21's one game last year, when the star player went off injured before half time and most of the second half was played a man down.
McAlinden my hole, a hateful hoor if ever there was one.
Quote from: bennydorano on March 06, 2011, 07:51:37 PM
McAlinden my hole, a hateful hoor if ever there was one.
besides what your hole might think. there is little doubt that his ability to manage is far superior to that of por.
Quotethere is an old saying that,, louse lips sink ships
Do lice have lips? If so they must be very small.
Quote from: under the bar on March 06, 2011, 10:51:48 PM
Quotethere is an old saying that,, louse lips sink ships
Do lice have lips? If so they must be very small.
they could give you a nasty suck :D
Quote from: bennydorano on March 06, 2011, 07:51:37 PM
McAlinden my hole, a hateful hoor if ever there was one.
Well there is a lot of people who are not fussed on McAlinden, i have no prob with him at all. I'm just telling you who will be Armagh's next management team ;) not if people like him r not
Quote from: illdecide on March 06, 2011, 11:39:32 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 06, 2011, 07:51:37 PM
McAlinden my hole, a hateful hoor if ever there was one.
Well there is a lot of people who are not fussed on McAlinden, i have no prob with him at all. I'm just telling you who will be Armagh's next management team ;) not if people like him r not
Talk of the next management team is balls. What if Armagh enjoy the luck Down had last year on their run to the AIF, is POR going to get chased? I very much doubt it. Or as is entirely possible what if Armagh U21's get knocked out of the championship in the first round on Wednesday night? (for the second year in a row) McAlinden's CV will not look so hot then and talk of promotion to the Senior side will look pretty foolish.
Quote from: bennydorano on March 07, 2011, 07:27:07 PM
Quote from: illdecide on March 06, 2011, 11:39:32 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 06, 2011, 07:51:37 PM
McAlinden my hole, a hateful hoor if ever there was one.
Well there is a lot of people who are not fussed on McAlinden, i have no prob with him at all. I'm just telling you who will be Armagh's next management team ;) not if people like him r not
Talk of the next management team is balls. What if Armagh enjoy the luck Down had last year on their run to the AIF, is POR going to get chased? I very much doubt it. Or as is entirely possible what if Armagh U21's get knocked out of the championship in the first round on Wednesday night? (for the second year in a row) McAlinden's CV will not look so hot then and talk of promotion to the Senior side will look pretty foolish.
Thats what i was thinking, if he won an ulster title which is possible would POR get chased? That would be harsh in the extreme.
Dont understand this hype around McAlinden, he couldnt win it for Armagh when they had a great team!! What has he got on his CV other than Armagh, not saying he doesnt have anything, just asking the question.
Once again i agree with benny - McAlinden is not the man for the job in 2012 if indeed there's a vacancy. If he has the right man with him to soften the blow i reckon McAlinden would be a good minor manager. Modern intercounty footballers wouldn't put up with him alas.
On the assumption that McGeeny isnt available who is the man for the job then. Surely McEntee wouldnt be ready for it yet?!?
Quote from: bennydorano on March 07, 2011, 07:27:07 PM
Quote from: illdecide on March 06, 2011, 11:39:32 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 06, 2011, 07:51:37 PM
McAlinden my hole, a hateful hoor if ever there was one.
Well there is a lot of people who are not fussed on McAlinden, i have no prob with him at all. I'm just telling you who will be Armagh's next management team ;) not if people like him r not
Talk of the next management team is balls. What if Armagh enjoy the luck Down had last year on their run to the AIF, is POR going to get chased? I very much doubt it. Or as is entirely possible what if Armagh U21's get knocked out of the championship in the first round on Wednesday night? (for the second year in a row) McAlinden's CV will not look so hot then and talk of promotion to the Senior side will look pretty foolish.
Good call Benny ;) :D
after todays fiasco it must be starting to dawn on the county board that they have made a horrible mistake in appointing por. he left 'star' to his own devices with only brendan donaghy as cover and as a direct result armagh missed a fantastic chance to beat kerry and give the team/supporters a much needed lift. the other handful of changes he made were a joke. he seems totally unaware of problems on the pitch and therefore is unable to see whats happening. time after time 'star' (and he is a star) simply out fielded our back and didnt even try to turn he simply off loaded the ball to a forward running in, several times it was that other player that armagh simply cannot handle 'wee' o'sullavan por simply didnt see what was happening. andy mallon roaming--bad idea- he should have stayed back and supported brendy. as far as i'm aware jamie clarke had already informed por that he was available for selection.. where was he?
f**k off with this thread.
Quote from: AFS on March 20, 2011, 09:23:05 PM
f**k off with this thread.
that you paddy? feck off home to burren
QuoteOn the assumption that McGeeny isnt available who is the man for the job then. Surely McEntee wouldnt be ready for it yet?!?
Apparently Grimley was approched and when he named his price, the county board nearly spat out their dentures.
you all couldnt wait to get him .Dont think he went looking for it
Quote from: NP 76 on March 20, 2011, 09:44:04 PM
you all couldnt wait to get him .Dont think he went looking for it
To be fair, most Armagh people were less than enthusiastic!
County Board are an absolute disgrace for ever giving him the job! Ive never seen anyone as bad at makin decisons on the line and God knows what they do in trainin! Its def not work on the attackin part of the game! I know I have said this before but the players I know cant believe how bad he is! They all maintain is doent have a clue at all!
There's no great shame losing to any Kerry team, even at home. However, i agree completely with Lawnseed. You know, it was embarrassing at times. How the mangement couldn't see the OBVIOUS problems is beyond inept. I've gone beyond angry, i'm just disillusioned now. A decent team, but completely rudderless. It's going to be a short summer.
Quote from: whitegoodman on March 07, 2011, 08:01:24 PM
On the assumption that McGeeny isnt available who is the man for the job then. Surely McEntee wouldnt be ready for it yet?!?
He wont be happy with you calling him Shirley.
Success: Stay up in Division One, beat Down in the championship, get to the AI quarters
Failure: Relegation, lose to Down, early exit via the back-door
No point in discussing Paddy's future until June at the very earliest.
Quote from: Orior on March 20, 2011, 09:53:28 PM
Success: Stay up in Division One, beat Down in the championship, get to the AI quarters
Failure: Relegation, lose to Down, early exit via the back-door
What about the space between success and failure?
Quote from: under the bar on March 20, 2011, 09:36:26 PM
QuoteOn the assumption that McGeeny isnt available who is the man for the job then. Surely McEntee wouldnt be ready for it yet?!?
Apparently Grimley was approched and when he named his price, the county board nearly spat out their dentures.
Where do you hear this shite?
Quote from: lawnseed on March 20, 2011, 09:34:22 PM
Quote from: AFS on March 20, 2011, 09:23:05 PM
f**k off with this thread.
that you paddy? feck off home to burren
Really, what's the point?
Armagh lose. Resurrect the same shite thread. Whinge about the same old deficiencies. Throw up the same old hypothetical replacements. Repeat.
This discussion is boring, unrealistic and unproductive.
Quote from: tevez on March 20, 2011, 09:46:28 PM
County Board are an absolute disgrace for ever giving him the job! Ive never seen anyone as bad at makin decisons on the line and God knows what they do in trainin! Its def not work on the attackin part of the game! I know I have said this before but the players I know cant believe how bad he is! They all maintain is doent have a clue at all!
This thread is a disgrace
Quote from: ardchieftain on March 20, 2011, 09:51:41 PM
There's no great shame losing to any Kerry team, even at home. However, i agree completely with Lawnseed. You know, it was embarrassing at times. How the mangement couldn't see the OBVIOUS problems is beyond inept. I've gone beyond angry, i'm just disillusioned now. A decent team, but completely rudderless. It's going to be a short summer.
I would say the management could see the problems just as well as you or anyone else. Brendan Donaghey is our best full back, would anyone else in the Armagh panel have done a better job? I dont think so, which is why he was left on Star. We all know the problems with the forward line, i would say POR like the rest of us cant wait to have the two Clarkes back for a start. The main issue i would have with the management today was leaving young Grugan on for so long for the plain and simple reason that it could not have been good for the lads confidence as nothing was going right for him.
I will judge POR after the summer and see have we progressed from last year, so far i would say we have. A four point defeat by Kerry, missing two of our best three forwards and probably other likely starters (or at least first few subs likely to be used) and so-called Armagh supporters are calling for the managers head. What a shower of tossers. Championship is where it matters, judge after that for **** sake
Paddy O'Rourke out...............................field today for Meath, scored a point when he came on.
As some of you may recall I predicted a very stormy season for PO'R. However, it is just plain silly to talk about ousting him. I havent a clue what he is like as a man or a manager but I do know that some of the players have very little respect for him, his tactics or his ideas... also his management team around him.
Given the talent to come back into the team they will not be easily beaten come c/ship.. but it is c/ship that he will and should be judged, not after a league game against Kerry.
QuoteApparently Grimley was approched and when he named his price, the county board nearly spat out their dentures.
Where do you hear this shite?
From the horse's mouth.
Quote from: under the bar on March 20, 2011, 11:07:11 PM
QuoteApparently Grimley was approched and when he named his price, the county board nearly spat out their dentures.
Where do you hear this shite?
From the horse's mouth.
Which horse? Grimley? Couldn't see Grimley giving the inside line to a Tyrone WUM...........
Quote from: under the bar on March 20, 2011, 11:07:11 PM
QuoteApparently Grimley was approched and when he named his price, the county board nearly spat out their dentures.
Where do you hear this shite?
From the horse's mouth.
t
this is total balls
The pundits on RTE last night were very harsh on Armagh. Really makes my blood boil if they are only basing their opinions on a highlight package...... they can't be everywhere. Some really sweeping (imho) things said about Armagh last night which were not warranted and should have been qualified if they were not in fact at the game.
Will stand humbly corrected and chastened if in fact both pundits were at the GGs yesterday.
Quote from: armagho9 on March 20, 2011, 10:36:30 PM
Quote from: ardchieftain on March 20, 2011, 09:51:41 PM
There's no great shame losing to any Kerry team, even at home. However, i agree completely with Lawnseed. You know, it was embarrassing at times. How the mangement couldn't see the OBVIOUS problems is beyond inept. I've gone beyond angry, i'm just disillusioned now. A decent team, but completely rudderless. It's going to be a short summer.
I would say the management could see the problems just as well as you or anyone else. Brendan Donaghey is our best full back, would anyone else in the Armagh panel have done a better job? I dont think so, which is why he was left on Star. We all know the problems with the forward line, i would say POR like the rest of us cant wait to have the two Clarkes back for a start. The main issue i would have with the management today was leaving young Grugan on for so long for the plain and simple reason that it could not have been good for the lads confidence as nothing was going right for him.
I will judge POR after the summer and see have we progressed from last year, so far i would say we have. A four point defeat by Kerry, missing two of our best three forwards and probably other likely starters (or at least first few subs likely to be used) and so-called Armagh supporters are calling for the managers head. What a shower of t**sers. Championship is where it matters, judge after that for **** sake
FFS man he could have tried Toner in a lot earlier, Star was the complete architect of the Kerry victory. In your theory if Stevey (Our Best free taker) was having a mare with the frees we wouldnt try anyone else on them. Brendy is a great player but he was getting destroyed POR should have tried that move earlier. Maybe Toner would have got roasted as well but at least he was tried.
Remaining in the top flight this year should be considered a successful year for Armagh from a league perspective. Still being in the Championship in August time would be a big achievement.
Quote from: Canalman on March 21, 2011, 10:52:04 AM
The pundits on RTE last night were very harsh on Armagh. Really makes my blood boil if they are only basing their opinions on a highlight package...... they can't be everywhere. Some really sweeping (imho) things said about Armagh last night which were not warranted and should have been qualified if they were not in fact at the game.
Will stand humbly corrected and chastened if in fact both pundits were at the GGs yesterday.
what was said?
Armagh are getting worse. There is a big hope that the two Clarke's will act as messiahs but it is a risky approach to build your hopes on that alone. Ronan has yet to even take the field and Jamie is still fairly young and inexperienced. There is little point on saying - when we get our players back, when we get our players back..... Down are missing our goalkeeper, 2 first choice defenders and our captain. They all should be back for the championship but we haven't sat around waiting for them. Instead alternative players have been brought in and charged with the responsibility of winning in their absence. No one in Down has blamed the loss of Ambrose for anything that has happened in the league. We expect our team to accept the responsibility of winning.
Armagh have good enough players but the attitude this year has been terrible. Accepting defeats without much complaint, instead saying that it isn't too bad too be losing 'cause Jamie and Ronan aren't playing.
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 21, 2011, 01:58:12 PM
Down are missing our goalkeeper, 2 first choice defenders and our captain. They all should be back for the championship but we haven't sat around waiting for them. Instead alternative players have been brought in and charged with the responsibility of winning in their absence. No one in Down has blamed the loss of Ambrose for anything that has happened in the league. We expect our team to accept the responsibility of winning.
Well hooray for Down!!!
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 21, 2011, 01:58:12 PM
Armagh have good enough players but the attitude this year has been terrible. Accepting defeats without much complaint, instead saying that it isn't too bad too be losing 'cause Jamie and Ronan aren't playing.
Whose attitude? The players? Or posters on this board?
Haven't heard any players taking this attitude. If it's posters on this board then that it is of absolutely no relevance to what's going on on the field. I've asked you before to hold back on the lecturing until the 28th of May.
Quote from: DuffleKing on March 21, 2011, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: Canalman on March 21, 2011, 10:52:04 AM
The pundits on RTE last night were very harsh on Armagh. Really makes my blood boil if they are only basing their opinions on a highlight package...... they can't be everywhere. Some really sweeping (imho) things said about Armagh last night which were not warranted and should have been qualified if they were not in fact at the game.
Will stand humbly corrected and chastened if in fact both pundits were at the GGs yesterday.
what was said?
Same thing that everyone who has seen Armagh this year have said: defence and midfield are grand, but movement and general forward play is absolutely clueless.
When even an eejit like Tommy Lyons can see this then you really have to wonder.
Quote from: under the bar on March 20, 2011, 11:07:11 PM
QuoteApparently Grimley was approched and when he named his price, the county board nearly spat out their dentures.
Where do you hear this shite?
From the horse's mouth.
Now I know for a fact your talking shite
Who are the complete armagh management team at the min lads with O'Rourke
Quote from: Canalman on March 21, 2011, 10:52:04 AM
The pundits on RTE last night were very harsh on Armagh. Really makes my blood boil if they are only basing their opinions on a highlight package...... they can't be everywhere. Some really sweeping (imho) things said about Armagh last night which were not warranted and should have been qualified if they were not in fact at the game.
Will stand humbly corrected and chastened if in fact both pundits were at the GGs yesterday.
Eh, the game was shown on TG4. Even if they weren't at it, they'd have had plenty of time to find 70 minutes before going on air.
I really just meant that this excuse of the misssing clarkes is starting to get really tiresome now. There will always be an injured player, you can't always blame that. Each opposition team has injured players too. Monaghan had no Freeman, Down had no Ambrose (& others), Dublin were missing a load, Kerry were missing Quirke, plus O'Sullivan, O'Mahoney and Galvin all started on the bench. Beside's exactly what would Ronan & Jamie Clarke have done to help defend against Donaghy & Gooch? POR is using a tired excuse and is a bluffer.
As for attitude, I did mean posters on the forum. Each week I get a feeling that a defeat is excused as having come with a decent perfromance by a few players so its not too bad and anyway the Clarkes will be back soon. This appears to me to be an attitude of quite a few people. But I am amazed. Deafeat is bad, Each week its different players being praised not the same ones, everyone has injured players, and the clarke's are not magicians. You need all your players performing to their best and consistently. People shouldn't rely on a returning hero.
Quote from: orchard 8195 on March 21, 2011, 10:52:31 AM
Quote from: armagho9 on March 20, 2011, 10:36:30 PM
Quote from: ardchieftain on March 20, 2011, 09:51:41 PM
There's no great shame losing to any Kerry team, even at home. However, i agree completely with Lawnseed. You know, it was embarrassing at times. How the mangement couldn't see the OBVIOUS problems is beyond inept. I've gone beyond angry, i'm just disillusioned now. A decent team, but completely rudderless. It's going to be a short summer.
I would say the management could see the problems just as well as you or anyone else. Brendan Donaghey is our best full back, would anyone else in the Armagh panel have done a better job? I dont think so, which is why he was left on Star. We all know the problems with the forward line, i would say POR like the rest of us cant wait to have the two Clarkes back for a start. The main issue i would have with the management today was leaving young Grugan on for so long for the plain and simple reason that it could not have been good for the lads confidence as nothing was going right for him.
I will judge POR after the summer and see have we progressed from last year, so far i would say we have. A four point defeat by Kerry, missing two of our best three forwards and probably other likely starters (or at least first few subs likely to be used) and so-called Armagh supporters are calling for the managers head. What a shower of t**sers. Championship is where it matters, judge after that for **** sake
FFS man he could have tried Toner in a lot earlier, Star was the complete architect of the Kerry victory. In your theory if Stevey (Our Best free taker) was having a mare with the frees we wouldnt try anyone else on them. Brendy is a great player but he was getting destroyed POR should have tried that move earlier. Maybe Toner would have got roasted as well but at least he was tried.
Poblem with moving Toner to full back in my opinion would have been that in the second half our midfield was under serious pressure, Toner, Vernon and Mal Mackin were putting in a huge effort to get to grips with the Kerry midfield that was supplying the ball to Donaghey. In my honest opinion i think Toner was needed more in midfield than full back, there is no doubt Brendan got a bit of a roasting but i genuinely feel that Toner was needed more at midfield but i would have to say Brendan should have had a bit more support
have it taped and i've watched it twice and seen the highlights brendy was well fit for star any time he tried to turn him but he simply could match him in the air, toward the end of the game the lad was totally demoralised and wasnt even challanging for the ball. por simply hasnt a clue and i wont be spending any more of my hard earned cash and burning diesel to watch armagh if they are not going to take it serious. sure cairan donaghey is a handful but teams adapt to match his ability. armaghs blanket defence was devised with one player in mind 'joe brolly' what has paddy o rourke come up with... well ronans injured and the cross lads are'nt available.. bullshit armagh needed to win and were fit for kerry. HE lost the game and HE is to blame he should quit
Quote from: balladmaker on March 21, 2011, 11:28:04 AM
Remaining in the top flight this year should be considered a successful year for Armagh from a league perspective. Still being in the Championship in August time would be a big achievement.
Totally agree. Staying in Div1 would be an achievement and important for development of the team going into next year.
Beating Down is possible although hand on heart how many Armagh fans think we can win Ulster this year? QFs would represent a decent season. Like many still not convinced about POR but the players seem to be putting in the effort for him and the time to judge him will be end of championship.
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 09:54:27 PM
have it taped and i've watched it twice and seen the highlights brendy was well fit for star any time he tried to turn him but he simply could match him in the air, toward the end of the game the lad was totally demoralised and wasnt even challanging for the ball. por simply hasnt a clue and i wont be spending any more of my hard earned cash and burning diesel to watch armagh if they are not going to take it serious. sure cairan donaghey is a handful but teams adapt to match his ability. armaghs blanket defence was devised with one player in mind 'joe brolly' what has paddy o rourke come up with... well ronans injured and the cross lads are'nt available.. bullshit armagh needed to win and were fit for kerry. HE lost the game and HE is to blame he should quit
You're probably right. I think any team that gets beat by Kerry should sack the manager. Might even get a chance to manage a county myself at some stage because i dare say with Kerrys win ratio there should be plenty of vacancies. Unbelievable, actually a bit embarrassed for you ::)
Anyone know the background staff of the Armagh set up?
Quote from: armagho9 on March 21, 2011, 10:07:23 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 09:54:27 PM
have it taped and i've watched it twice and seen the highlights brendy was well fit for star any time he tried to turn him but he simply could match him in the air, toward the end of the game the lad was totally demoralised and wasnt even challanging for the ball. por simply hasnt a clue and i wont be spending any more of my hard earned cash and burning diesel to watch armagh if they are not going to take it serious. sure cairan donaghey is a handful but teams adapt to match his ability. armaghs blanket defence was devised with one player in mind 'joe brolly' what has paddy o rourke come up with... well ronans injured and the cross lads are'nt available.. bullshit armagh needed to win and were fit for kerry. HE lost the game and HE is to blame he should quit
You're probably right. I think any team that gets beat by Kerry should sack the manager. Might even get a chance to manage a county myself at some stage because i dare say with Kerrys win ratio there should be plenty of vacancies. Unbelievable, actually a bit embarrassed for you ::)
your concern is noted. the point being that if por is only a stop gap til someone better comes along or ronan shakes of his injury.. why bother? nothing happening armagh 09 we're only going through the motions. down are no better than armagh and they played in last years all ireland final because they have a 'manager'. (and some luck) they already tried por and he was useless, what are we doing? trying to eduacate him with a death of a thousand cuts. he should be asked to resign.. now! hes not a manager. no more than ger houlahan would be a manager being a good footballer doesnt make you manager material. have you thought for one minute what life will be like without stevie why waste his time and our money a great footballer deserves a great manager
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 10:51:23 PM
Quote from: armagho9 on March 21, 2011, 10:07:23 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 09:54:27 PM
have it taped and i've watched it twice and seen the highlights brendy was well fit for star any time he tried to turn him but he simply could match him in the air, toward the end of the game the lad was totally demoralised and wasnt even challanging for the ball. por simply hasnt a clue and i wont be spending any more of my hard earned cash and burning diesel to watch armagh if they are not going to take it serious. sure cairan donaghey is a handful but teams adapt to match his ability. armaghs blanket defence was devised with one player in mind 'joe brolly' what has paddy o rourke come up with... well ronans injured and the cross lads are'nt available.. bullshit armagh needed to win and were fit for kerry. HE lost the game and HE is to blame he should quit
You're probably right. I think any team that gets beat by Kerry should sack the manager. Might even get a chance to manage a county myself at some stage because i dare say with Kerrys win ratio there should be plenty of vacancies. Unbelievable, actually a bit embarrassed for you ::)
your concern is noted. the point being that if por is only a stop gap til someone better comes along or ronan shakes of his injury.. why bother? nothing happening armagh 09 we're only going through the motions. down are no better than armagh and they played in last years all ireland final because they have a 'manager'. (and some luck) they already tried por and he was useless, what are we doing? trying to eduacate him with a death of a thousand cuts. he should be asked to resign.. now! hes not a manager. no more than ger houlahan would be a manager being a good footballer doesnt make you manager material. have you thought for one minute what life will be like without stevie why waste his time and our money a great footballer deserves a great manager
If it wasn't for Stevie POR probably wouldn't be the manager!
And what's this talk of Paddy O'Rouke being a "good footballer" - he was average at best imo.
p.s. Houlahan has managed sides
and pps, whoever said "this thread is a disgrace" - please stop with the hysterics.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on March 21, 2011, 10:56:25 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 10:51:23 PM
Quote from: armagho9 on March 21, 2011, 10:07:23 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 09:54:27 PM
have it taped and i've watched it twice and seen the highlights brendy was well fit for star any time he tried to turn him but he simply could match him in the air, toward the end of the game the lad was totally demoralised and wasnt even challanging for the ball. por simply hasnt a clue and i wont be spending any more of my hard earned cash and burning diesel to watch armagh if they are not going to take it serious. sure cairan donaghey is a handful but teams adapt to match his ability. armaghs blanket defence was devised with one player in mind 'joe brolly' what has paddy o rourke come up with... well ronans injured and the cross lads are'nt available.. bullshit armagh needed to win and were fit for kerry. HE lost the game and HE is to blame he should quit
You're probably right. I think any team that gets beat by Kerry should sack the manager. Might even get a chance to manage a county myself at some stage because i dare say with Kerrys win ratio there should be plenty of vacancies. Unbelievable, actually a bit embarrassed for you ::)
your concern is noted. the point being that if por is only a stop gap til someone better comes along or ronan shakes of his injury.. why bother? nothing happening armagh 09 we're only going through the motions. down are no better than armagh and they played in last years all ireland final because they have a 'manager'. (and some luck) they already tried por and he was useless, what are we doing? trying to eduacate him with a death of a thousand cuts. he should be asked to resign.. now! hes not a manager. no more than ger houlahan would be a manager being a good footballer doesnt make you manager material. have you thought for one minute what life will be like without stevie why waste his time and our money a great footballer deserves a great manager
If it wasn't for Stevie POR probably wouldn't be the manager!
And what's this talk of Paddy O'Rouke being a "good footballer" - he was average at best imo.
p.s. Houlahan has managed sides
and pps, whoever said "this thread is a disgrace" - please stop with the hysterics.
no thread is a disgrace discussing is always useful. my point is pints we dont have time to mess around we need boost and a nice run in the championship would come in handy when your trying to run a club. we had a challange recently and niether of the teams could field ::) clubs are in trouble and por is not helping. clubs thrive when the county is going well imo this guy is ruining armagh football and i'd say the gate recieipts show that
And what's this talk of Paddy O'Rouke being a "good footballer" - he was average at best imo.
[/quote]
An "average" footballer who has won All Ireland medals at every grade and two AI club medals...plus the fact he captained an AI winning senior team...
Average manager maybe....but a top class footballer in his time...
Youse boys talk some shite..
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 11:23:38 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on March 21, 2011, 10:56:25 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 10:51:23 PM
Quote from: armagho9 on March 21, 2011, 10:07:23 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 09:54:27 PM
have it taped and i've watched it twice and seen the highlights brendy was well fit for star any time he tried to turn him but he simply could match him in the air, toward the end of the game the lad was totally demoralised and wasnt even challanging for the ball. por simply hasnt a clue and i wont be spending any more of my hard earned cash and burning diesel to watch armagh if they are not going to take it serious. sure cairan donaghey is a handful but teams adapt to match his ability. armaghs blanket defence was devised with one player in mind 'joe brolly' what has paddy o rourke come up with... well ronans injured and the cross lads are'nt available.. bullshit armagh needed to win and were fit for kerry. HE lost the game and HE is to blame he should quit
You're probably right. I think any team that gets beat by Kerry should sack the manager. Might even get a chance to manage a county myself at some stage because i dare say with Kerrys win ratio there should be plenty of vacancies. Unbelievable, actually a bit embarrassed for you ::)
your concern is noted. the point being that if por is only a stop gap til someone better comes along or ronan shakes of his injury.. why bother? nothing happening armagh 09 we're only going through the motions. down are no better than armagh and they played in last years all ireland final because they have a 'manager'. (and some luck) they already tried por and he was useless, what are we doing? trying to eduacate him with a death of a thousand cuts. he should be asked to resign.. now! hes not a manager. no more than ger houlahan would be a manager being a good footballer doesnt make you manager material. have you thought for one minute what life will be like without stevie why waste his time and our money a great footballer deserves a great manager
If it wasn't for Stevie POR probably wouldn't be the manager!
And what's this talk of Paddy O'Rouke being a "good footballer" - he was average at best imo.
p.s. Houlahan has managed sides
and pps, whoever said "this thread is a disgrace" - please stop with the hysterics.
no thread is a disgrace discussing is always useful. my point is pints we dont have time to mess around we need boost and a nice run in the championship would come in handy when your trying to run a club. we had a challange recently and niether of the teams could field ::) clubs are in trouble and por is not helping. clubs thrive when the county is going well imo this guy is ruining armagh football and i'd say the gate recieipts show that
I think he's useless and never wanted him but I don't think you can blame him for clubs failing to field nor do I think it would be useful to get rid of him mid season. Who would you want to come in at this stage to manage?If O'Rouke resigned in the morning who would you expect to take his place?
Who in their right mind would agree to it but that's another discussion.
Quote from: 5 Sams on March 21, 2011, 11:24:47 PM
And what's this talk of Paddy O'Rouke being a "good footballer" - he was average at best imo.
An "average" footballer who has won All Ireland medals at every grade and two AI club medals...plus the fact he captained an AI winning senior team...
Average manager maybe....but a top class footballer in his time...
Youse boys talk some shite..
[/quote]
I don't care what he's won, the fact that he was on good teams is irrelevant. He wasn't a bad player, a decent enough county player but not what I'd describe as a "good footballer" and mention in the same breath as the likes of Houlahan.
It's kind calling him an average manager and it's funny that you Down boys couldn't wait to get rid of him yourselves but will defend him when he's at another county.
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 11:23:38 PM
no thread is a disgrace discussing is always useful. my point is pints we dont have time to mess around we need boost and a nice run in the championship would come in handy when your trying to run a club. we had a challange recently and niether of the teams could field ::) clubs are in trouble and por is not helping. clubs thrive when the county is going well imo this guy is ruining armagh football and i'd say the gate recieipts show that
Blaming Paddy O'Rourke for the trouble of club sides is just groundless. A run in the championship actually hampers club football due to the amount of postponements it causes. If you're looking for the reason behind falling club numbers, as the Wolfe Tones once said "take a look at Dublin airport," not our admittedly uninspiring county manager.
I must say I agree with AFS. He's here now, he'll be here until the end of the championship so let's re-assess then.
Houghlan was average enough too hardly the standard of Oisin or Marsden . We couldnt wait to get rid of POR just glad that you boys took him
Quote from: NP 76 on March 21, 2011, 11:43:38 PM
Houghlan was average enough too hardly the standard of Oisin or Marsden . We couldnt wait to get rid of POR just glad that you boys took him
Personally I'd have him on the same level as Marsden, I don't think anyone from Armagh could touch Oisin but that's a whole other thread. That said, if O'Rourke was "top class" Houlahan, Oisin and Marsden are/were just out of this world!!
I do not care at this time if Paddy O'Rourke is a good or average manager. At the minute he is our manager and he will get my support. I did not want him as manager at the start but as supporters I think we should be supporting the team and assess things at the end of the championship. Talk like this destroyed the final year of the last managers reign. Since then we have gained promotion and had five championship managers in one season. Progress. Division 1 is tough but as manager POR has a better record than McDonnell and Big Joe in his last 2 years. Sunday was depressing, not in that we lost but in how we lost. Would the tactics have worked if we had a full quota to work with. I doubt it, but we would have put up a better show. The one thing I will say though is that the team does not give up.
Also, the first time I saw Gerard Houlahan play was in 1981 or 82 when he carried Armagh CBS to an All Ireland title. He was a great player then and despite a bad injury got even better. He carried a poor Armagh team for years and IMO only Oisin and Stevie have grounds to say they were better.
Finally I think the Armagh management team are POR, Donal Murtagh and Sean Hagan(?) from Burren.
lads maybe POR isn't the problem, maybe he has nothing to work with??
now i'm not saying he's a good or bad manager or a good or bad footballer, that's a different discussion, i'm saying the 2002 team is still in your recent memory, armaghs golden generation, these lads spoiled you's with the long summers they gave you, i mind poyntzpass used to take the red white and blue bunting down after the 12th of July and put up armagh bunting, how many teams get consistent seasons when they are playing into august?
you's have to get a new team together, and that doesn't happen overnight, Down under pete mcgrath kept the old guard too long and left nothing and that's why we were in the wilderness for so long, you's hit the panic button under mcdonnell and now under o'rourke, maybe it isn't the manager, maybe it's what he has to work with, you's need to drop the expectation levels and row in behind your team
Quote from: Banana Man on March 22, 2011, 09:04:36 AM
lads maybe POR isn't the problem, maybe he has nothing to work with??
now i'm not saying he's a good or bad manager or a good or bad footballer, that's a different discussion, i'm saying the 2002 team is still in your recent memory, armaghs golden generation, these lads spoiled you's with the long summers they gave you, i mind poyntzpass used to take the red white and blue bunting down after the 12th of July and put up armagh bunting, how many teams get consistent seasons when they are playing into august?
you's have to get a new team together, and that doesn't happen overnight, Down under pete mcgrath kept the old guard too long and left nothing and that's why we were in the wilderness for so long, you's hit the panic button under mcdonnell and now under o'rourke, maybe it isn't the manager, maybe it's what he has to work with, you's need to drop the expectation levels and row in behind your team
Much of that is true, however that is really not what is por's difficulty. He is coming from a position where armagh people were prepared to accept him as manager (that's being generous and only because they wanted the blood letting to be over), a tiny minority 'wanted' him, and a lot of people were openly hostile to his appointment. he knew this and accepted the job on these terms. He was never going to have a honeymoon period and every mstake was waited for.
He hasn't performed to a level other than what was expected. People can say what they like but those that know armagh football know that there are plenty of raw materials and potential there as well as no small amount of established quality. The frustration comes from knowing we have not developed as we should have. The reality is that this is year four of this team's development - it began in 08 - and mismanagement has held back what should have been a team built around the 04 all ireland team.
por never was the right man for the job - county board, knowledgable supporters and obviously the players knew that - and when the co board could not get a strong backroom team and had to return to the previously rejected murtagh, the writing was on the wall.
por will of course see the season out and who knows, a good qualifier draw and run through the back door could evenkeep him in situ for next year. :-\
Quote from: 5 Sams on March 21, 2011, 11:24:47 PM
And what's this talk of Paddy O'Rouke being a "good footballer" - he was average at best imo.
An "average" footballer who has won All Ireland medals at every grade and two AI club medals...plus the fact he captained an AI winning senior team...
Average manager maybe....but a top class footballer in his time...
Youse boys talk some shite..
[/quote]
+1
I hate it when a footballer like Paddy gets judged on form near the end of his career when injuries had taken their toll. By the time he won the elusive All Ireland Paddy was past his peak but ask any of that Down team and they will only have praise for his leadership on and off the field. He was an absolutely awesome player in his younger days and has one of the most complete medal hauls in the game to prove it.
He's also quite a scary big bugger.
Quote from: Orangemac on March 21, 2011, 10:03:41 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on March 21, 2011, 11:28:04 AM
Remaining in the top flight this year should be considered a successful year for Armagh from a league perspective. Still being in the Championship in August time would be a big achievement.
Totally agree. Staying in Div1 would be an achievement and important for development of the team going into next year.
Beating Down is possible although hand on heart how many Armagh fans think we can win Ulster this year? QFs would represent a decent season. Like many still not convinced about POR but the players seem to be putting in the effort for him and the time to judge him will be end of championship.
I have never been overly convinced by POR, however given our limited resources the 3 Kernans, Jamie Clarke, David McKenna and young Morgan would at least give him some better options. Judge him on the season, a semi and survival in the league are realistic ambitions.
guys whilst we may wish for a change POR is going no where, what he needs now is help in the forward line and he must seek it and I am sure there is someone in the county to assist him in this regard.
for me beating down is a must coupled withe a run to the quarters
Anyone who says POR has not made progress must have very short memories.
1st year in charge. Division 2 champions and promotion to division 1. 5 championship games, ending with a narrow defeat to dublin who went onto lose narrowly in all-ireland semi final to the eventual champions.
2nd year in charge. Looks likely to retain division 1 status without the services of the crossmaglen players and Ronan Clarke.
Granted at times we have seemed to be without a game plan, but i remember similar criticisms of McAlinden and to a lesser extent Kernan. I think its stupid for people to be calling for his sacking during a decent league campaign. I will wait to see what happens in the summer before i judge
cheers throw ball i was wondering who that third man was
Quote from: armagho9 on March 22, 2011, 08:24:33 PM
Anyone who says POR has not made progress must have very short memories.
1st year in charge. Division 2 champions and promotion to division 1. 5 championship games, ending with a narrow defeat to dublin who went onto lose narrowly in all-ireland semi final to the eventual champions.
2nd year in charge. Looks likely to retain division 1 status without the services of the crossmaglen players and Ronan Clarke.
Granted at times we have seemed to be without a game plan, but i remember similar criticisms of McAlinden and to a lesser extent Kernan. I think its stupid for people to be calling for his sacking during a decent league campaign. I will wait to see what happens in the summer before i judge
I think POR is a poor manager. I agree the comments above are spot on. He has achieved an at least acceptable level of success. Promotion and survival are good if not spectacular and should not be judged till after the summer. But I think most Armagh fans feel that Armagh are barely perfroming to the sum of their parts when you expect a manager to form a team that is better than its parts. That's why POR is not good enough. I certainly would not want him back with Down.
Isn't his record better than wee jame's co career, silverware in cupboard :P
I wouldn't want POR within loudspeaker range of a Down team again, but I have to say Armagh fans just won't accept that their current team just isn't good enough.
Have to agree with wobbler and paul 123 would hate to see POR back with Down at any stage not only because of his managerial qualities but because he would even contemplate going to your biggest rivals. No one else would even think of doing this . This move was like a two finger salute to Down as much as anything else . The other Burren man with him is Sean o Hare and i think he is a trainer
Quote from: thewobbler on March 22, 2011, 10:40:54 PM
I wouldn't want POR within loudspeaker range of a Down team again, but I have to say Armagh fans just won't accept that their current team just isn't good enough.
Isn't it possible that the players
and the management are not good enough?
Of course it is AFS.
In terms of personnel, Armagh have enough defensive strength and footballing nous to be competitive this year, but don't have the raw talent to win anything. Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.
It's markedly different to what Down went through with POR. We had raw talent, but no defensive strength and possibly even less footballing nous. What Down needed (and didn't get until James arrived) was someone to organise the team to be difficult to beat. POR wasn't that man for Down.
I'm really though not sure what any manager could deliver for Armagh. There's potentially a lot to be said for going back to Joe Kernan's high diagonal ball system, to at least give the team a demonstrative game plan. But whoever manages Armagh wouldn't have the ball striking prowess (O'Rourke, McGeeney, McEntee, McGrane) that Joe Kernan enjoyed. The logical alternative is to play through the half-forward line, but it's not being overly critical to suggest that Armagh just don't have the resources in that line to run a gameplan through it.
Quote from: AFS on March 23, 2011, 12:08:17 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 22, 2011, 10:40:54 PM
I wouldn't want POR within loudspeaker range of a Down team again, but I have to say Armagh fans just won't accept that their current team just isn't good enough.
Isn't it possible that the players and the management are not good enough?
Not good enough for what but? We are not good enough to win Sam, even an eternal optimist like me knows that, but we are good enough to win Ulster if this team was set up properly.
Quote from: mackers on March 23, 2011, 09:59:21 AM
Quote from: AFS on March 23, 2011, 12:08:17 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 22, 2011, 10:40:54 PM
I wouldn't want POR within loudspeaker range of a Down team again, but I have to say Armagh fans just won't accept that their current team just isn't good enough.
Isn't it possible that the players and the management are not good enough?
Not good enough for what but? We are not good enough to win Sam, even an eternal optimist like me knows that, but we are good enough to win Ulster if this team was set up properly.
I agree, and in my darker moments i think they could even go beyond ulster.
A couple of points
1) Wobbler POR didnt inherit a good down team, like Armagh he inherited a down team that was in a huge transition fase. Ageing stars like james, Linden, Greg McCartan and Brian Burns were well passed their prime and young bucks like coulter, doyle and walsh were barely out of nappies. The worst thing he could have done was to reach the ulster final in his first year as it was a massive over achievement and expectations were that the boys in red in black were back. In reality that team and half a dozen mid 30 year old players and half a dozen teenagers. Down were not a good team under POR and dont think James or anyone else would have done much else with them at that stage. It was a different story under ross carr when all of these players were beginning to come into their prime but that is for another day. James inherited a potentially great team from Ross, POR didnt inherit a potentially great team from McGrath, he inherited a good minor team and a few all ireland winners who were well past their best.
2) If Armagh win the ulster title which is a good possibility will POR get another year? I actually think if they bt down they are in with a great shout.
3) Who would you all want if he does go and and the basis that McGeeney is not an option.
4) Every man and his dog knows that he is no tactical genius but from what i have seen from Armagh this year they seem to be a team that are fighting to the very end in every match. Surely this is not a trate of a group of players that are not behind their manager?
I never said it was a good Down team he inherited whitegoodman. But that's all the more reason why they needed managed instead of motivated. Down's years under POR were all about "we're Down and we play football", instead of "we're going to be difficult to beat". And we suffered innumerable hidings as a result; games that were over as soon as the opposition put three scores in a row over the bar. The players just weren't set up or prepared to respond to an onslaught.
Armagh's situation under POR is completely different - there's a core of reasonably seasoned players who know how to stop the opposition playing, and as a result, will be competitive in every game. POR's challenge (or that of anyone who might replace him) is to get some creative flair and "gay abandon" into their attacking style, so that their defensive platform is maximised. But without natural playmakers, this is a thankless challenge. Even should Ronan Clarke return with the vivado of old, you still have to get the ball to him and Stevie. It's difficult to see who in the Armagh set-up can take on that role against limited opposition, let alone the cream of the pack.
Quote from: whitegoodman on March 23, 2011, 01:18:16 PM
4) Every man and his dog knows that he is no tactical genius but from what i have seen from Armagh this year they seem to be a team that are fighting to the very end in every match. Surely this is not a trate of a group of players that are not behind their manager?
What ever else that can be fired up at O'Rourke, not have the players behind him is not one of them. I know a couple of Armagh posters have commented that the players don't respect him but I'd take that with a pinch of salt because, as you have said, they do keep fighting to the end of a match.
I still think a bit of perspective has to brought to this debate. To read some of the posts on here you'd swear Armagh were languishing in Division 3. Armagh haven't played Division 1 football in quite a few years, POR and these players "who are not good enough" have taken Armagh into the top division and (fingers crossed) will stay there for next year. Last year's defeat by Monaghan was very disappointing but aside from that results have not been bad.
I agree that our forward play has to improve and it is only right that we complain about that but the overall situation is not as bad as some are making it out to be.
[ Even should Ronan Clarke return with the vivado of old, you still have to get the ball to him and Stevie. It's difficult to see who in the Armagh set-up can take on that role against limited opposition, let alone the cream of the pack.
[/quote]
wobbler the only cream i see in the 32 counties competing for sam are dublin, kerry and cork, Armagh should be confident against anyone else, I for on expect them to beat down in May and having talked to one player yesterday his words were
" the only game we are interested in and fully focused on is the down game, nothing else matters" i remember mc geeney saying something similiar years ago, the league means nothing .
Quote from: thewobbler on March 23, 2011, 09:33:02 AM
I'm really though not sure what any manager could deliver for Armagh. There's potentially a lot to be said for going back to Joe Kernan's high diagonal ball system, to at least give the team a demonstrative game plan. But whoever manages Armagh wouldn't have the ball striking prowess (O'Rourke, McGeeney, McEntee, McGrane) that Joe Kernan enjoyed. The logical alternative is to play through the half-forward line, but it's not being overly critical to suggest that Armagh just don't have the resources in that line to run a gameplan through it.
We haven't the players to pass into the FF line? Heard it all now.
Dublin among the 'cream of the crop'..tell us another one, go on, one more. Please.
This is a ridiculous thread.
Maybe POR was to blame for the Japanese earthquake and subsequent tsunami too.
Quote from: Brick Tamlin on March 23, 2011, 02:09:46 PM
Dublin among the 'cream of the crop'..tell us another one, go on, one more. Please.
This is a ridiculous thread.
Maybe POR was to blame for the Japanese earthquake and subsequent tsunami too.
Dublin were beaten by a point by the All Ireland champions in the AISF and sit top of Division 1.
Your point is?
Quote from: mackers on March 23, 2011, 01:50:05 PM
Quote from: whitegoodman on March 23, 2011, 01:18:16 PM
4) Every man and his dog knows that he is no tactical genius but from what i have seen from Armagh this year they seem to be a team that are fighting to the very end in every match. Surely this is not a trate of a group of players that are not behind their manager?
What ever else that can be fired up at O'Rourke, not have the players behind him is not one of them. I know a couple of Armagh posters have commented that the players don't respect him but I'd take that with a pinch of salt because, as you have said, they do keep fighting to the end of a match.
I still think a bit of perspective has to brought to this debate. To read some of the posts on here you'd swear Armagh were languishing in Division 3. Armagh haven't played Division 1 football in quite a few years, POR and these players "who are not good enough" have taken Armagh into the top division and (fingers crossed) will stay there for next year. Last year's defeat by Monaghan was very disappointing but aside from that results have not been bad.
I agree that our forward play has to improve and it is only right that we complain about that but the overall situation is not as bad as some are making it out to be.
County footballers - particularly those from previously successful teams - are a very proud animal. the very least i'd expect from our county team is that they'd battle, scrap and fight to the bitter end. I wouldn't give a flying fcuk who they were if i thought they lacked that. to lay that as a credit token at por's table is quite a stretch.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 23, 2011, 09:33:02 AM
Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.
If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.
Quote from: AFS on March 23, 2011, 06:03:11 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 23, 2011, 09:33:02 AM
Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.
If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.
I dont buy this theory that the current squad isnt good enough to compete for the major titles, just look at the quality and experience within the squad. Take what is my guess will be Armagh's starting 15 once everyone is fit, with their approximate age and national pedigree. All stats are off the top of my head and whilst not 100% accurate should illustrate what I am getting at:
P Hearty early 30's numerous AI club titles and played in 2003 AI final. All star nominee?
A Mallon Max 28, AI U21 winner and played in 2003 AI final, All Star
B Donaghy Around 23 maybe younger and highly rated as a full back
F Moriarity Around 26/27, AI U21 winner
A Kernan Max 28, AI U21 winner and multiple club AI titles, Young Player of the year and All Star
C McKeever Max 28, AI U21 winner, All star nominee
K Dyas Around 23 Hogan Cup winner and former professional athlete
C Vernon Around 26 Sigerson Winner
K Toner Around 23
BJ Padden Around 30 and has played in at least one all ireland final
B Mallon Max 28 AI U21 winner
G Swift Around 26
S McDonnell Around 31 AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former player of the year
R Clarke Around 28, AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former young player of the year
J Clarke Around 20 AI Club winner.
Then a bench with a number of AI Club medals, Under 21 medals and minor medals. Not many counties that are supposedly in transition would have such a consistent level of pedigree. In fact in terms of individual quality Id say we have a team (at least on paper) that is top 4 in the country. Moreover its a group of individual players that on paper looks better than our team did this time 10 years ago
Thats why I am so annoyed at the current management set up, I think we are at most one year and a good manager away from really seriously challenging for an AI. However with the current set up in place I wouldnt even rate us as a top 8 team at the minute
Nippy played on the AI 21 winning team as well, also holder of Ulster club minor medal
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on March 23, 2011, 02:21:50 PM
Quote from: Brick Tamlin on March 23, 2011, 02:09:46 PM
Dublin among the 'cream of the crop'..tell us another one, go on, one more. Please.
This is a ridiculous thread.
Maybe POR was to blame for the Japanese earthquake and subsequent tsunami too.
Dublin were beaten by a point by the All Ireland champions in the AISF and sit top of Division 1.
Your point is?
And ur point is?
Down bt kerry and got bt by a point by cork last year. Does that mean they are on the same level as Cork and Kerry? No
Kildare were bt by Down by a point. Does that mean they are on the same level as Cork and Kerry? No
IMO none of these 3 teams are at the level of Cork or Kerry and until they win the All Ireland none of them will be. Its been over 15 years since either Dublin or Down won the All Ireland and until they show they are capable of closing out a game of that magnitude again, they will remain with the rest of the also rans.
As for being top of the league in the middle of March............il give ya nothing for that, dont think Conor, Jack or even Mickey for that matter would either.
Quote from: DuffleKing on March 23, 2011, 03:00:27 PM
Quote from: mackers on March 23, 2011, 01:50:05 PM
Quote from: whitegoodman on March 23, 2011, 01:18:16 PM
4) Every man and his dog knows that he is no tactical genius but from what i have seen from Armagh this year they seem to be a team that are fighting to the very end in every match. Surely this is not a trate of a group of players that are not behind their manager?
What ever else that can be fired up at O'Rourke, not have the players behind him is not one of them. I know a couple of Armagh posters have commented that the players don't respect him but I'd take that with a pinch of salt because, as you have said, they do keep fighting to the end of a match.
I still think a bit of perspective has to brought to this debate. To read some of the posts on here you'd swear Armagh were languishing in Division 3. Armagh haven't played Division 1 football in quite a few years, POR and these players "who are not good enough" have taken Armagh into the top division and (fingers crossed) will stay there for next year. Last year's defeat by Monaghan was very disappointing but aside from that results have not been bad.
I agree that our forward play has to improve and it is only right that we complain about that but the overall situation is not as bad as some are making it out to be.
County footballers - particularly those from previously successful teams - are a very proud animal. the very least i'd expect from our county team is that they'd battle, scrap and fight to the bitter end. I wouldn't give a flying fcuk who they were if i thought they lacked that. to lay that as a credit token at por's table is quite a stretch.
I think ur being very naive if u think in this day and age county footballers give their all and dont kick up a fuss if they are not happy with the managment. You just have to look at events down in Limerick and Cork last year and Fermanagh to a lessor extent this year to see that.
There seem to be a terrible lot of Down men on this thread who seem to know alot about Armagh footballers. Maybe we should have picked one of them as manager. ;D
Im sorry but its just tiresome and all too easy to hit the easy target and blame POR for any/all of Armaghs problems. I mean would you credit the man with anything.
At the end of the day alot of apple-munching folk on here and elsewhere have never and will never accepted him or warmed to him because basicaly he is a Down man through and through and a proud one at that.
Put the hatred and bullshit to one side and look at the thing properly and objectively.
You can keep your club experiences and underage successes, they really count for jack shit when your playing intercounty senior football in the ulster and all-ireland series agains the best and all the potential in the world also means dick unless you deliver it (we in Down are used to that one). Some of your players are excellent but some are also shite. Your current management team has faults like every other one but by f**k ye can be guaranteed that they are doing their level best to move Armagh football forward. They were chosen to do a job and im sure they will be the first to hold the hand up if it doesnt go their way and make mistakes but bitching on here and bumming and blowing about getting POR out is futile. Support yer team, support your county. Could be worse, ye could be from fermanagh.
Quote from: David McKeown on March 23, 2011, 06:35:26 PM
Quote from: AFS on March 23, 2011, 06:03:11 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 23, 2011, 09:33:02 AM
Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.
If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.
I dont buy this theory that the current squad isnt good enough to compete for the major titles, just look at the quality and experience within the squad. Take what is my guess will be Armagh's starting 15 once everyone is fit, with their approximate age and national pedigree. All stats are off the top of my head and whilst not 100% accurate should illustrate what I am getting at:
P Hearty early 30's numerous AI club titles and played in 2003 AI final. All star nominee?
A Mallon Max 28, AI U21 winner and played in 2003 AI final, All Star
B Donaghy Around 23 maybe younger and highly rated as a full back
F Moriarity Around 26/27, AI U21 winner
A Kernan Max 28, AI U21 winner and multiple club AI titles, Young Player of the year and All Star
C McKeever Max 28, AI U21 winner, All star nominee
K Dyas Around 23 Hogan Cup winner and former professional athlete
C Vernon Around 26 Sigerson Winner
K Toner Around 23
BJ Padden Around 30 and has played in at least one all ireland final
B Mallon Max 28 AI U21 winner
G Swift Around 26
S McDonnell Around 31 AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former player of the year
R Clarke Around 28, AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former young player of the year
J Clarke Around 20 AI Club winner.
Then a bench with a number of AI Club medals, Under 21 medals and minor medals. Not many counties that are supposedly in transition would have such a consistent level of pedigree. In fact in terms of individual quality Id say we have a team (at least on paper) that is top 4 in the country. Moreover its a group of individual players that on paper looks better than our team did this time 10 years ago
Thats why I am so annoyed at the current management set up, I think we are at most one year and a good manager away from really seriously challenging for an AI. However with the current set up in place I wouldnt even rate us as a top 8 team at the minute
add playing for ireland v oz to this list for mc donell, mckever, clarke,donaghey
Quote from: lawnseed on March 23, 2011, 11:25:51 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on March 23, 2011, 06:35:26 PM
Quote from: AFS on March 23, 2011, 06:03:11 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 23, 2011, 09:33:02 AM
Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.
If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.
I dont buy this theory that the current squad isnt good enough to compete for the major titles, just look at the quality and experience within the squad. Take what is my guess will be Armagh's starting 15 once everyone is fit, with their approximate age and national pedigree. All stats are off the top of my head and whilst not 100% accurate should illustrate what I am getting at:
P Hearty early 30's numerous AI club titles and played in 2003 AI final. All star nominee?
A Mallon Max 28, AI U21 winner and played in 2003 AI final, All Star
B Donaghy Around 23 maybe younger and highly rated as a full back
F Moriarity Around 26/27, AI U21 winner
A Kernan Max 28, AI U21 winner and multiple club AI titles, Young Player of the year and All Star
C McKeever Max 28, AI U21 winner, All star nominee
K Dyas Around 23 Hogan Cup winner and former professional athlete
C Vernon Around 26 Sigerson Winner
K Toner Around 23
BJ Padden Around 30 and has played in at least one all ireland final
B Mallon Max 28 AI U21 winner
G Swift Around 26
S McDonnell Around 31 AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former player of the year
R Clarke Around 28, AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former young player of the year
J Clarke Around 20 AI Club winner.
Then a bench with a number of AI Club medals, Under 21 medals and minor medals. Not many counties that are supposedly in transition would have such a consistent level of pedigree. In fact in terms of individual quality Id say we have a team (at least on paper) that is top 4 in the country. Moreover its a group of individual players that on paper looks better than our team did this time 10 years ago
Thats why I am so annoyed at the current management set up, I think we are at most one year and a good manager away from really seriously challenging for an AI. However with the current set up in place I wouldnt even rate us as a top 8 team at the minute
add playing for ireland v oz to this list for mc donell, mckever, clarke,donaghey
a few of them also have ulster medals at U21 and Minor
Quote from: David McKeown on March 23, 2011, 06:35:26 PM
Quote from: AFS on March 23, 2011, 06:03:11 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 23, 2011, 09:33:02 AM
Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.
If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.
I dont buy this theory that the current squad isnt good enough to compete for the major titles, just look at the quality and experience within the squad. Take what is my guess will be Armagh's starting 15 once everyone is fit, with their approximate age and national pedigree. All stats are off the top of my head and whilst not 100% accurate should illustrate what I am getting at:
P Hearty early 30's numerous AI club titles and played in 2003 AI final. All star nominee?
A Mallon Max 28, AI U21 winner and played in 2003 AI final, All Star
B Donaghy Around 23 maybe younger and highly rated as a full back
F Moriarity Around 26/27, AI U21 winner
A Kernan Max 28, AI U21 winner and multiple club AI titles, Young Player of the year and All Star
C McKeever Max 28, AI U21 winner, All star nominee
K Dyas Around 23 Hogan Cup winner and former professional athlete
C Vernon Around 26 Sigerson Winner
K Toner Around 23
BJ Padden Around 30 and has played in at least one all ireland final
B Mallon Max 28 AI U21 winner
G Swift Around 26
S McDonnell Around 31 AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former player of the year
R Clarke Around 28, AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former young player of the year
J Clarke Around 20 AI Club winner.
Then a bench with a number of AI Club medals, Under 21 medals and minor medals. Not many counties that are supposedly in transition would have such a consistent level of pedigree. In fact in terms of individual quality Id say we have a team (at least on paper) that is top 4 in the country. Moreover its a group of individual players that on paper looks better than our team did this time 10 years ago
Thats why I am so annoyed at the current management set up, I think we are at most one year and a good manager away from really seriously challenging for an AI. However with the current set up in place I wouldnt even rate us as a top 8 team at the minute
Excellent post!
The only bit I'd disagree with is the last sentence. I do feel that we are a top 8 team (maybe that's a reflection on what else is out there). We are not close to Cork and Kerry and the Dubs but if our forwards started to play with more cohesion then we would be closer. There's a fair degree of pedigree in the set up but it's also there in a number of counties so that's only really a starting point.
Quote from: mackers on March 24, 2011, 11:13:38 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on March 23, 2011, 06:35:26 PM
Quote from: AFS on March 23, 2011, 06:03:11 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 23, 2011, 09:33:02 AM
Changing the manager won't help this situation. Changing the manager might help achieve the full potential of the team, but that's still going to fall short.
If we fall short on ability, we fall short. The current frustration exists because of a precieved failure by management to devise a system that brings us closer to maximising whatever potential exists.
I dont buy this theory that the current squad isnt good enough to compete for the major titles, just look at the quality and experience within the squad. Take what is my guess will be Armagh's starting 15 once everyone is fit, with their approximate age and national pedigree. All stats are off the top of my head and whilst not 100% accurate should illustrate what I am getting at:
P Hearty early 30's numerous AI club titles and played in 2003 AI final. All star nominee?
A Mallon Max 28, AI U21 winner and played in 2003 AI final, All Star
B Donaghy Around 23 maybe younger and highly rated as a full back
F Moriarity Around 26/27, AI U21 winner
A Kernan Max 28, AI U21 winner and multiple club AI titles, Young Player of the year and All Star
C McKeever Max 28, AI U21 winner, All star nominee
K Dyas Around 23 Hogan Cup winner and former professional athlete
C Vernon Around 26 Sigerson Winner
K Toner Around 23
BJ Padden Around 30 and has played in at least one all ireland final
B Mallon Max 28 AI U21 winner
G Swift Around 26
S McDonnell Around 31 AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former player of the year
R Clarke Around 28, AI winner, Multiple All Stars and former young player of the year
J Clarke Around 20 AI Club winner.
Then a bench with a number of AI Club medals, Under 21 medals and minor medals. Not many counties that are supposedly in transition would have such a consistent level of pedigree. In fact in terms of individual quality Id say we have a team (at least on paper) that is top 4 in the country. Moreover its a group of individual players that on paper looks better than our team did this time 10 years ago
Thats why I am so annoyed at the current management set up, I think we are at most one year and a good manager away from really seriously challenging for an AI. However with the current set up in place I wouldnt even rate us as a top 8 team at the minute
Excellent post!
The only bit I'd disagree with is the last sentence. I do feel that we are a top 8 team (maybe that's a reflection on what else is out there). We are not close to Cork and Kerry and the Dubs but if our forwards started to play with more cohesion then we would be closer. There's a fair degree of pedigree in the set up but it's also there in a number of counties so that's only really a starting point.
I missed out a lot of medals there it was just a rough guide to the quality of player available to Armagh at the minute. Despite this abundance of talent I would expect the following counties to beat us in the games that counted in the championship:
Kerry
Cork
Tyrone
Dublin
Kildare
Down
I would also not be confident of beating the following unless we were playing well:
Derry
Monaghan
Meath
Mayo
Its interesting to note that paddy power have us at 12th favourites for the All Ireland at 40-1
To have the level of talent available that we currently do and to be so far adrift on the top teams in for me down to one thing and one thing only, poor management. I take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do, so the question has to be asked why are we not competitive against the top sides
I agree with David Mc Keown on this. I am against outside managers, and I feel Paddy O Rourke would genuinely give 100% to anything but I have a feeling that Armagh are not capitalizing on the experience that winning an ai can bring to a county. When a county has an outside manager and Guys such as Mc Geeney, Grimley, Mc Nulty, J Kernan are outside the loop then theres something wrong somewhere. Joe Kernan would be a much superior option to O Rourke yet he would not be acceptable to an awful lot. To me Brian mc Alinden is a proven team builder as well
QuoteI take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do
is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.
[Well said Wobbler couldnt agree more
Down men in agreement about armagh's lack of quality shocker.....
Brave few Armagh ones agreeing also about their lack of quality up front
Quote from: thewobbler on March 24, 2011, 10:15:31 PM
QuoteI take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do
is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.
Ill ceede that maybe Galway should have been included in my list of teams with similar pedigree but not the rest. Since 2000 only Armagh, Tyrone, Cork, Galway and Kerry have won AI titles at U21, Minor and Senior level so to suggest that Derry, Down, Meath, Dublin, Kildare would have the same calibre in the squad is in my opinion just wrong
Quote from: David McKeown on March 25, 2011, 12:43:22 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 24, 2011, 10:15:31 PM
QuoteI take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do
is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.
Ill ceede that maybe Galway should have been included in my list of teams with similar pedigree but not the rest. Since 2000 only Armagh, Tyrone, Cork, Galway and Kerry have won AI titles at U21, Minor and Senior level so to suggest that Derry, Down, Meath, Dublin, Kildare would have the same calibre in the squad is in my opinion just wrong
Armagh would struggle to beat any of the teams in bold......so bang goes your argument :o
PS....football didn't start in 2000 either :D
Winning something once does not give you a pedigree.
Quote from: David McKeown on March 25, 2011, 12:43:22 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 24, 2011, 10:15:31 PM
QuoteI take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do
is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.
Ill ceede that maybe Galway should have been included in my list of teams with similar pedigree but not the rest. Since 2000 only Armagh, Tyrone, Cork, Galway and Kerry have won AI titles at U21, Minor and Senior level so to suggest that Derry, Down, Meath, Dublin, Kildare would have the same calibre in the squad is in my opinion just wrong
catch a grip ffs, nearly everyone on that Down team would have won all ireland medals witht he minor teams that won over the last 12 years, plus a runners up medal in the u21 final combined with a senior all ireland final appearance last year. Just because you's won a minor all ireland a few years back does not guarantee success, look at Down's AI winning minor team of '99, they toiled in the wilderness at senior level for years, you's seriously need to adjust your expectations.
The main man on that armagh AI minor success was a wee lad McVerry - where is he now???
Quote from: Groucho on March 25, 2011, 08:05:48 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on March 25, 2011, 12:43:22 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 24, 2011, 10:15:31 PM
QuoteI take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do
is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.
Ill ceede that maybe Galway should have been included in my list of teams with similar pedigree but not the rest. Since 2000 only Armagh, Tyrone, Cork, Galway and Kerry have won AI titles at U21, Minor and Senior level so to suggest that Derry, Down, Meath, Dublin, Kildare would have the same calibre in the squad is in my opinion just wrong
Armagh would struggle to beat any of the teams in bold......so bang goes your argument :o
PS....football didn't start in 2000 either :D
Please read my posts as that's exactly what I said and is my argument. For me at the minute Armagh are less than the sums of it's parts. The quality of player is there, the quality of play is not and for that I blame the management team. The reason I only went back to 2000 is simply because fellas playing on teams before that would either be unlikely to still be playing or would be at the end of their careers and unlikely to still be in their prime
David, The problem probably lies not with your good players (who are the equal of many top players) but in the additional players that surround them.
Cork have some star players, as do Kerry, Down, Dublin, Tyrone. But when you take the star players out of a team only Cork and Kerry still have serious quality. Armagh support players aren't as great as you make them sound. Take out McDonnell, Clarke & Clarke and I can't see any of the rest being wanted by Cork for the first team (maybe for the bench yes). Same with Down, take away Hughes, Coulter, Clarke and maybe Gordon and I can't see Cork or Kerry being jealous of what's left.
Armagh are though a top 10 side, deserve to be in division 1 and should be expecting to challenge for Ulster title. Far too early to talk about an All-Ireland.
I am sure you are not unrealistic but your message makes it sound like you are. Sounds like your billing Armagh as having the best players in Ireland and POR's job should be easy. It's not easier than any other manager in the top ten teams and the talent isn't better. Having said that he is a bluffer, uses the same excuses, can't get his defence working as efficiently as Down have with similar (possibly marginally less) talent. But he doesn't have a team which is nearly as talented as a lot of people here have tried to make out.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 25, 2011, 08:48:37 AM
Winning something once does not give you a pedigree.
wobbler you seem to have too much interest in all things armagh for a down man,
if i was in your shoes i would keep my powder dry until june.
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 25, 2011, 10:16:14 AM
Sounds like your billing Armagh as having the best players in Ireland and POR's job should be easy.
In fairness Paul, he's not trying to say that.
There's nothing wrong in a supporter looking for a manager to get the best out of the panel that's he's got. I would agree with you that underage success does not automatically mean senior success, but it does show that the manager has the raw materials to build a decent team. Few Armagh supporters think we can win the AI, and personally I wasn't expecting to beat Kerry last Sunday but what I do expect is for Armagh's forwards to play with a lot more cohesion that was on show in the Athletic Grounds.
Just because we are looking for our team to play better doesn't mean we reckon that we will win the AI!!
naka - not at all. I find this soccer style hounding of managers quite amusing.
Admittedly I've been guilty of it in the past from a Down perspective, but in my defence Down underachieved dramatically from 1996-2010, due in no small part to a continual managerial reluctance to change the style of football to something more organised and difficult to beat. I didn't expect Down to win anything during these times, but I did expect us to be competitive in every game and to come out holding our heads high if beaten by a better team. Instead we got routinely whalloped.
The current Armagh situation isn't the same. They're in Division 1, and will give anyone or everyone a game at any time of year. But with the playing resources available - particularly in the forward line - even a miracle worker won't make them All-Ireland winners. Armagh's best hope for these times, until more forwards arrive on the scene, would have been to retain someone like McDonnell as manager, who was at least pragmatic enough to recognise the team's weaknesses, and to make the most of its strengths. But you Armagh folk didn't like that approach. You'd rather convince yourselves that the players are there for fluid football, when they clearly aren't. Delusions of grandeur. Just be happy that you've got a good team, and you'll not be getting trounced by Sligo or Longford for a few years yet.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 25, 2011, 11:00:08 AM
naka - not at all. I find this soccer style hounding of managers quite amusing.
sorry wobbler its just that its not too often that i see a ballyholland man with a furtive interest in the orchard.
we know that POR is not going anywhere fast but as supporters who are asked to donater mon to friends of armagh etc we need to see improvement, a forward line of say two clarkes, swift, stevie and say s kernan and brian mallon would have movement and should have some interchangeability, I dont see this developing under POR . I remember the ulster final in PORs first year with Down and realising then that he did not have to nous to close out a game in which you were 9 points up.
POR was not first choice for the gig at the time but i would have hoped that he would have learned from his time in charge of down, he hasnt and i think it is a telling point that if the down job came up next year and he was available most down punters wouldnt want him on board and he is a native of your county.
its not hounding of managers its realising that someone is making a poor fist of the cards he has been dealt with.
Quote from: naka on March 25, 2011, 11:51:29 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 25, 2011, 11:00:08 AM
naka - not at all. I find this soccer style hounding of managers quite amusing.
sorry wobbler its just that its not too often that i see a ballyholland man with a furtive interest in the orchard.
we know that POR is not going anywhere fast but as supporters who are asked to donate money to friends of armagh etc we need to see improvement, a forward line of say two clarkes, swift, stevie and say s kernan and brian mallon would have movement and should have some interchangeability, I dont see this developing under POR . I remember the ulster final in PORs first year with Down and realising then that he did not have to nous to close out a game in which you were 9 points up.
POR was not first choice for the gig at the time but i would have hoped that he would have learned from his time in charge of down, he hasnt and i think it is a telling point that if the down job came up next year and he was available most down punters wouldnt want him on board and he is a native of your county.
its not hounding of managers its realising that someone is making a poor fist of the cards he has been dealt with.
thewobbler , you are not too far off there, in my opinion. Although I don't agree the McDonnell was quite the answer either. Armagh should be aiming to stay in Div 1, get to the AI quarter finals and give Ulster a rattle. We'll probably do the former and hopefully will achieve the other objectives. But just as Wexford 2009 was unacceptable, Monaghan last year was too. This year we have fought in most of each game at least, but we don't quite seem to move well.
[/quote]
we know that POR is not going anywhere fast but as supporters who are asked to donate money to friends of armagh etc we need to see improvement, a forward line of say two clarkes, swift, stevie and say s kernan and brian mallon would have movement and should have some interchangeability, I dont see this developing under POR . I remember the ulster final in PORs first year with Down and realising then that he did not have to nous to close out a game in which you were 9 points up.
POR was not first choice for the gig at the time but i would have hoped that he would have learned from his time in charge of down, he hasnt and i think it is a telling point that if the down job came up next year and he was available most down punters wouldnt want him on board and he is a native of your county.
its not hounding of managers its realising that someone is making a poor fist of the cards he has been dealt with.
[/quote]
Is the etc bit Paddy and Mike?? ;D
Don't start me about McDonnell..............POR, for all his faults, is a better manager than him. The performance against Monaghan in Casement was poor but I wasn't as depressed as I was after the Monaghan match in Clones the previous year or the Wexford match in Croker.
Negative football taken to the extreme....not starting Brendan Donaghy in the AIQF and then bringing him on at wing forward....Charlie Vernon being told not to move out of a quadrant on the field no matter where the ball was...Nippy Swift not good enough for the panel......leaving one of our all time greats sitting on the bench in the AIQF..........
Wobbler you are so far off the mark with that man it's untrue..........
Quote from: mackers on March 25, 2011, 01:24:45 PM
Don't start me about McDonnell..............POR, for all his faults, is a better manager than him. The performance against Monaghan in Casement was poor but I wasn't as depressed as I was after the Monaghan match in Clones the previous year or the Wexford match in Croker.
Negative football taken to the extreme....not starting Brendan Donaghy in the AIQF and then bringing him on at wing forward....Charlie Vernon being told not to move out of a quadrant on the field no matter where the ball was...Nippy Swift not good enough for the panel......leaving one of our all time greats sitting on the bench in the AIQF..........
Wobbler you are so far off the mark with that man it's untrue..........
Calm down Mackers! Sure you know that Down people know more about Armagh than you anyway. ;)
Quote from: thewobbler on March 25, 2011, 08:48:37 AM
Winning something once does not give you a pedigree.
Usual Down Sh1t!
I have said before on this thread POR was not an exciting choice as manager but at least he started us of playing a bit more positive football, and he achieved promotion, the disappointing Championship was more to do with the negative influence from his assistants and yet Dublin where there for the taking. Lets see how he does with a full panel, and bear in mind also most of those minor and U21 players from the last couple of years still need time to develop. But I read with amusement the posts from Down fans who think that last years lucky run to the AI final marks their rebirth they could be in for a shock. ;)
applesisapples, it's not shit, let alone Down shit.
Your man was roll calling your team as being up there with the best on paper, and using successes as a marker. When it was pointed out to him that 10 teams around the country can boost equal or better medal hauls at other ranks in the game, then he referred back to All Ireland pedigree as Armagh's credentials. One All Ireland, 10 years ago, is not a pedigree, and is about as relevant to the current Armagh team's chances of success, as the timing of the next missile launched on Libya.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 25, 2011, 02:08:45 PM
applesisapples, it's not shit, let alone Down shit.
Your man was roll calling your team as being up there with the best on paper, and using successes as a marker. When it was pointed out to him that 10 teams around the country can boost equal or better medal hauls at other ranks in the game, then he referred back to All Ireland pedigree as Armagh's credentials. One All Ireland, 10 years ago, is not a pedigree, and is about as relevant to the current Armagh team's chances of success, as the timing of the next missile launched on Libya.
:D :D :D
wobbler has a point, drop the siege mentality lads, as i have said, underage success does not equate to senior success, how many of that minor team is playing senior intercounty football at the minute?
it's the same at club level, if you get 6 or 7 lads through from any good minor team to replicate that at senior level then you have excelled.
There are far more senior intercounty medals in the current armagh squad than the down one. i don't know where (as usual) the air of superiority mixing with the stench of the clanrye river is coming from.
This thread has far too many people commenting with conviction about the potential of armagh when they know nothing of armagh club and underage football.
Its like talkkin to the wall
Quote from: DuffleKing on March 25, 2011, 02:25:55 PM
There are far more senior intercounty medals in the current armagh squad than the down one. i don't know where (as usual) the air of superiority mixing with the stench of the clanrye river is coming from.
This thread has far too many people commenting with conviction about the potential of armagh when they know nothing of armagh club and underage football.
and What?? how many have ulster senior medals? i would say no more than 6 or 7, achieved during the dying embers of the best armagh team ever that you's had had, they got together for one last hooray with mcgrane et al and won their medals as part of the last throes of a dying animal, now that they are asked to stand on their own 2 feet they can't do it.
In simple they aren't good enough and you try to blame PO'R for all these inadequacies.
Your eloquent use of language regarding the clanrye illustrates how rattled you are and how the truth is hurting you
as Brick says, just like a wall
There's actually few and far comments on this thread about Down football by Down men, and even fewer again that suggest Down are a better team, and fewer again that we're destined for success. The paranoid Armagh folk just can't talk about their own county without bringing other counties into a muckfest.
If you want to talk Down, then we should be a better team this year than last. Swagger does goes a long way in football, and the class of '99 showed their first signs of swagger in a decade last year. Players who have evolved as pivotal forces like Clarke, Poland, McKernan and King, should only be better players for the year of experience under their belts. Big Dan is now a serious option at full-back against some teams. The older outfield players have not yet hit 30, apart from Rafferty and should still have the legs for hard pitches. Maginn, Fitzpatrick and McComiskey could be this year's springers. And without meaning to sound like an Armagh fan, if we can get Rogers and Doyle returning from injury at 80% of their potential, it brings untold class to the team.
The flipside of this is that we may never get an easier run through the qualifiers again, I really wouldn't fancy taking on Kerry again if Galvin and O'Se were playing, while the other semi-finalists from last year all look a little bit stronger and clinical this season; meaning last year's performances wouldn't be good enough to make a final.
But then again I don't expect Down to win the All Ireland this year. I'd love an Ulster, but that's almost as tough to win. So long as they are playing to their level, and not leaving it behind in the changing room, I'm always happy with Down.
I know I shouldn't but.....I do not know any Armagh supporters who think they will win the All Ireland this year. And of the fifteen starters who played against Kerry 12 have Ulster chamionship medals and 1 Connaught medals, 6 have division 1 league medals and 13 division 2 league medals. Of the Cross players to come in all will have All Ireland medals. This may not mean definite future success but it does help give a foundation. If it didn't matter at all then Kilkenny could win the All Ireland in the next 5 years - in football! In the end of the day there is not a great deal of difference between Armagh and Down, although wobbler is right the swagger Down possess will bring them on.
Armagh have players from AI Club champions Crossmaglen to call on soon. They also have some other very talented players in the team already. The team is full of players who have contested finals and won them. Having high expectations for that team is not unrealistic at all. Anything less would be underselling ourselves.
Its great to see the old Armagh/Down rivalry bubbling away....
Joe Brolly hit the nail on the head in his article in the Gaelic Life outlining Armagh's deficiencies. McGurn is getting a pile of money thrown at him and what the fluck does he know about Gaelic Football. I know people are going to say that he is in there as a strength and conditioning coach but i know for a fact that between him and that sean o'hare man they take all the training. I think that not only Paddy O'Rourke is useless but the whole backroom staff 2. Has anyone heard which cross men are being taken onto squad? If SK isnt on the squad (which i expect he wont) it will be an absolute joke and def a decision made by muratgh who was nvr fussed on him while over cross.
Quote from: borderfox on March 25, 2011, 03:38:17 PM
Its great to see the old Armagh/Down rivalry bubbling away....
It sure is..........can't wait for the 28th of May............
Quote from: thewobbler on March 25, 2011, 02:50:03 PM
There's actually few and far comments on this thread about Down football by Down men
That's the problem, the thread has been inundated with Down men talking about Armagh football, a subject they think they know about but don't really, your suggestion of sticking with Peter McDonnell being a case in point!!!
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 25, 2011, 10:16:14 AM
David, The problem probably lies not with your good players (who are the equal of many top players) but in the additional players that surround them.
Cork have some star players, as do Kerry, Down, Dublin, Tyrone. But when you take the star players out of a team only Cork and Kerry still have serious quality. Armagh support players aren't as great as you make them sound. Take out McDonnell, Clarke & Clarke and I can't see any of the rest being wanted by Cork for the first team (maybe for the bench yes). Same with Down, take away Hughes, Coulter, Clarke and maybe Gordon and I can't see Cork or Kerry being jealous of what's left.
Armagh are though a top 10 side, deserve to be in division 1 and should be expecting to challenge for Ulster title. Far too early to talk about an All-Ireland.
I am sure you are not unrealistic but your message makes it sound like you are. Sounds like your billing Armagh as having the best players in Ireland and POR's job should be easy. It's not easier than any other manager in the top ten teams and the talent isn't better. Having said that he is a bluffer, uses the same excuses, can't get his defence working as efficiently as Down have with similar (possibly marginally less) talent. But he doesn't have a team which is nearly as talented as a lot of people here have tried to make out.
I don't for a second think Armagh have the best players in Ireland but I do think in terms of individual quality we have a squad that's certainly up there with the best, and on paper at least should provide a manager with a foundation for at least creating a competitive team. At the minute I feel our team as a unit is at best average and no where near the level required to compete for a trophy. I dont accept this is down to a lack of talent in the county. You mention Cork and Kerry only really wanting three players (Id imagine Kerry would kill for a McKeever) tbh id only want three or four of there players to substantially improve Armagh as well. My point is basically that as a team Armagh are far far away from the likes of Cork and Dublin and the other top teams but in terms of individual talent they are certainly well up there as has been shown when these same players have been involved either with other teams or in the Kernan era Armagh teams.
Quote from: Banana Man on March 25, 2011, 09:01:43 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on March 25, 2011, 12:43:22 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 24, 2011, 10:15:31 PM
QuoteI take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do
is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.
Ill ceede that maybe Galway should have been included in my list of teams with similar pedigree but not the rest. Since 2000 only Armagh, Tyrone, Cork, Galway and Kerry have won AI titles at U21, Minor and Senior level so to suggest that Derry, Down, Meath, Dublin, Kildare would have the same calibre in the squad is in my opinion just wrong
catch a grip ffs, nearly everyone on that Down team would have won all ireland medals witht he minor teams that won over the last 12 years, plus a runners up medal in the u21 final combined with a senior all ireland final appearance last year. Just because you's won a minor all ireland a few years back does not guarantee success, look at Down's AI winning minor team of '99, they toiled in the wilderness at senior level for years, you's seriously need to adjust your expectations.
The main man on that armagh AI minor success was a wee lad McVerry - where is he now???
If it was just a recent all ireland minor win then Id agree with you but its the fact that the current squad is made up from a mixture of successful players from previous county senior teams, a ai winning under 21 team, an AI winning minor team and highly successful multiple ai winning club side. The down minor win of 99 came when your county was in a different position I thought in so far as they were expected to provide the back bone for the senior team. Ours wasn't it was expected solely to build on what was already there.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 25, 2011, 02:08:45 PM
applesisapples, it's not shit, let alone Down shit.
Your man was roll calling your team as being up there with the best on paper, and using successes as a marker. When it was pointed out to him that 10 teams around the country can boost equal or better medal hauls at other ranks in the game, then he referred back to All Ireland pedigree as Armagh's credentials. One All Ireland, 10 years ago, is not a pedigree, and is about as relevant to the current Armagh team's chances of success, as the timing of the next missile launched on Libya.
I think I said that maybe four counties could post similar or better medal hauls not ten with the greatest amount of respect to teams like Kildare, Mayo, Meath etc their players wouldn't have similar medal hauls from other teams prior to their respective current setups. However they are now playing in better senior teams and for me the main reason for that is because of the quality of manager in place in recent years.
Quote from: David McKeown on March 25, 2011, 04:03:57 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on March 25, 2011, 02:08:45 PM
applesisapples, it's not shit, let alone Down shit.
Your man was roll calling your team as being up there with the best on paper, and using successes as a marker. When it was pointed out to him that 10 teams around the country can boost equal or better medal hauls at other ranks in the game, then he referred back to All Ireland pedigree as Armagh's credentials. One All Ireland, 10 years ago, is not a pedigree, and is about as relevant to the current Armagh team's chances of success, as the timing of the next missile launched on Libya.
I think I said that maybe four counties could post similar or better medal hauls not ten with the greatest amount of respect to teams like Kildare, Mayo, Meath etc their players wouldn't have similar medal hauls from other teams prior to their respective current setups. However they are now playing in better senior teams and for me the main reason for that is because of the quality of manager in place in recent years.
That was just wobbler getting his facts wrong again..............although you are being unfair when you say that Mayo and Meath players are playing in better senior teams than our players. You are right with Kildare though.
Quote from: borderfox on March 25, 2011, 03:38:17 PM
Its great to see the old Armagh/Down rivalry bubbling away....
Correct, well said.
I dont think there is a kick of the ball between these two, down seem to have the upper hand but Armagh are getting an awful lot of talent back post club AI so it will be tough for both teams.
Gaelic football is always better off when these two are good at the same time.
Two seperate issues here, firstly we have cobblers or wobblers going on about pedigree, I could take that from a kerry or tyrone man but not from some one from a county that has done nothing of note from the early 90's at senior level. Secondly what county POR from is irrelevent he was dodgy with down and thats why some Armagh people don't rate him. But enough of us are saying give him a chance.
Oh and most Armagh people now consider Tyrone to be the Old Enemy and the bench mark for success.
apples, people shouldn't bring pedigree into conversation unless the subject is worthy. Thank you for reinforcing my point.
Apples, The current Down team has no pedigree at senior county level as they have won nothing yet. But that doesn't mean that Armagh have. David McKeown was roll calling your team alleging pedigree based on Hogan cup, University, minor and U21 success. Down has that same success and so if that's pedigree then we have pedigree too.
Armagh has one county All-Ireland champion (McDonnell) until it is proven that R.Clarke can return. That is hardly pedigree for the current team.
So if schools and under-age is pedigree then Down have as much pedigree as Armagh
If All-Ireland finals is pedigree then Down have more than Armagh cause more of our players have played in won
If history is pedigree then Down have spades more than Armagh
May 28th, when you are looking up your guide book to find out how to get to your first round qualifier in the Midlands, you can reflect on how much pedigree Armagh have.
It's like a school playground round here.
I thought the topic was to do with Armagh people being dissatisfied with the manager? So why are all these Down people sticking their noses in ? Do you want Paddy O'Rourke back ? Take him, his cover's been blown. Agent O'Rourke.................
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 28, 2011, 03:13:39 PM
Apples, The current Down team has no pedigree at senior county level as they have won nothing yet. But that doesn't mean that Armagh have. David McKeown was roll calling your team alleging pedigree based on Hogan cup, University, minor and U21 success. Down has that same success and so if that's pedigree then we have pedigree too.
Armagh has one county All-Ireland champion (McDonnell) until it is proven that R.Clarke can return. That is hardly pedigree for the current team.
So if schools and under-age is pedigree then Down have as much pedigree as Armagh
If All-Ireland finals is pedigree then Down have more than Armagh cause more of our players have played in won
If history is pedigree then Down have spades more than Armagh
May 28th, when you are looking up your guide book to find out how to get to your first round qualifier in the Midlands, you can reflect on how much pedigree Armagh have.
I was actually responding to an assertion that Armagh did not have the players to be competitive which I think is complete bollocks. The list of accolades was to show that in teams before the current Armagh senior set up all but maybe two of these players were able to win AI medals or at worst get to an AI final in championship football, and a large number were able to pick up all star awards. Moreover I went on to state that these medals were won in a number of different teams be it the 2005 AI under 21 team, the 2002-2006 Armagh team, the current AI Champions Crossmaglen team (the one you conveniently ignore) or the 2009 Minor team and are therefore not drawn from one particularly strong/lucky underage team. The references to the schools and university medals was simply to show that even our hitherto less successful players have AI medals.
The point was then made that 10 teams in the country could make a similar claim, which in the absence of proof to the contrary is a massive exaggeration.
Just to take Down as an example how many of the current Down starting team have a player or young player of the year award?
How many have a senior All Ireland medal at club or county level?
How many have Under 21 All Ireland medals?
How many have minor All Ireland medals?
I will grant you that they almost certainly have more medals at colleges and schools level but again I was using that as our low watermark not high.
The reason I ask is simply this before last season when both O'Rourke and McCartan took over their respective teams, for me at least Armagh had the better selection of players, infact I would still rather have the Armagh squad if everyone was fit. However Down are currently the much better team because I feel O' Rourke is at best not getting the most out of alot of the players in the squad and is at worst stifling their development through a lack of gameplan and tactical nous. McCartan on the other hand has improved as far as I can tell nearly everyone in the Down squad since taking over.
The point is that for me this Armagh squad is very good, but they will not be competitive as I think they can be whilst O Rourke remains at the helm. Thats why I hope this year will be his last in charge of Armagh
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 28, 2011, 03:13:39 PM
May 28th, when you are looking up your guide book to find out how to get to your first round qualifier in the Midlands, you can reflect on how much pedigree Armagh have.
Fcuk i hope you eat your words. No need to be over confident.
As for the Down players credentials, most of them have an All-Ireland minor medal as we won it in 1999 and 2005.
Minor All Ireland champions - Coulter, Murtagh, John Clarke, Doyle, Sexton from 1999 and Clarke, McComiskey, McCartan, Colgan, Fitzpatrick, Garvey, Duffin, McKernan. All these lads started in a final plus others have medals from the bench.
Ulster U21 champions - Kevin McKernan, James Colgan, Conor McGinn, Peter Fitzpatrick, Paul McComiskey, Kevin Duffin, Conor Garvey, Conor Laverty, Luke Howard, Cathal Murdock, Kevin Anderson, Michael Magee and Paul Devlin.
All-Ireland U21 finalists - Murney, Fitzpatrick, Magee, Maginn, Devlin, McComiskey, Poland
CURRENT All-stars - Coulter, McVeigh, Clarke, & Hughes (not some award given years ago, sure Greg Blaney has three all stars but we're not planning on playing him in May)
CURRENT GPA Team of the year - Coulter, McVeigh, Clarke, McKernan, & Hughes
Nominated as CURRENT player of the year - Coulter
McDonnell was Player of the year 8 years ago - Not the same thing at all
As for All-Ireland club titles (give me a break) How many recent All-Ireland club champions come from counties that win the All-Ireland the same year (or indeed within 3-4 years)? Antrim (St Galls) were champions in 2009 so how come Antrim aren't storming county football? Because it is a very poor correlation! It hasn't happened since your own victory back in 2002!
However the above just shows that comparing badges is totally meaningless. If you go down the route of comparing badges everyone just ends up pulling awards from everywhere and each roll call looks as convincing as the other in its own rights. But it is irrelevant what has happened in the past. All that matters is the current team standard, not their standard 2,5 or 10 years ago.
Why cant some (fellow) Down posters keep it buttoned to an extent.
I know its a discussion forum based on discussion but i just dont get the whole over-confidence mantra from Down folk. I know im a cantankerous, grumpy git but by f**k some of the stuff on here recently from Down folk is ridiculous, ye should know better to be honest.
for what its worth and as ive said before several times, there isnt a kick of the ball between Armagh and Down and there wont be come championship time either.
I'd agree with Brick. Same goes for Armagh ones. We could have Nelson McCausland in charge and we'd still give Down a good hard game come championship. Won't be much in it either way.
On a wet evening without half our best team we tore Armagh to pieces. Pure luck prevented Armagh from conceding at least 2 goals and we struck the woodwork four or five times. It was the biggest one point victory all season. In May it will be dry, the pitch will be hard and we won't be praying for a lad to come back after 2 years not kicking a ball.
Down in play were way ahead of Armagh, the scoreline in Cork didn't reflect how close we were to them just like the scoreline in Newry didn't reflect how far away Armagh were from us.
It's time to be realistic , Armagh are not perfroming and not improving. Down are doing both. It's all very well being polite and playing down our chances to avoid looking silly later but it is totally unreal. It's time to stop looking across the canal to compare ourselves, we are beyond that now. A victory for them would be big success; for us a victory against Armagh is nothing more than a stepping stone. We are aiming to win Ulster not just beat a team struggling for form. Down are superior to Armagh and will win by around four points.
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 28, 2011, 07:36:56 PM
On a wet evening without half our best team we tore Armagh to pieces. Pure luck prevented Armagh from conceding at least 2 goals and we struck the woodwork four or five times. It was the biggest one point victory all season. In May it will be dry, the pitch will be hard and we won't be praying for a lad to come back after 2 years not kicking a ball.
Down in play were way ahead of Armagh, the scoreline in Cork didn't reflect how close we were to them just like the scoreline in Newry didn't reflect how far away Armagh were from us.
It's time to be realistic , Armagh are not perfroming and not improving. Down are doing both. It's all very well being polite and playing down our chances to avoid looking silly later but it is totally unreal. It's time to stop looking across the canal to compare ourselves, we are beyond that now. A victory for them would be big success; for us a victory against Armagh is nothing more than a stepping stone. We are aiming to win Ulster not just beat a team struggling for form. Down are superior to Armagh and will win by around four points.
Just the 4 ? Id say it could be a game akin to 92 in the Athletic grounds with Down winning pulling up. David McKeown has a very valid point in that mcCartan has improved out of recognition some players that looked at best ordinary. Sadly so far O Rourke hasn't really brought us forward, but will reserve judgement if he fails to improve our fortunes when the full compliment is available.
That div2 league final seems like a lifetime ago.
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 28, 2011, 07:36:56 PM
On a wet evening without half our best team we tore Armagh to pieces. Pure luck prevented Armagh from conceding at least 2 goals and we struck the woodwork four or five times. It was the biggest one point victory all season. In May it will be dry, the pitch will be hard and we won't be praying for a lad to come back after 2 years not kicking a ball.
Down in play were way ahead of Armagh, the scoreline in Cork didn't reflect how close we were to them just like the scoreline in Newry didn't reflect how far away Armagh were from us.
It's time to be realistic , Armagh are not perfroming and not improving. Down are doing both. It's all very well being polite and playing down our chances to avoid looking silly later but it is totally unreal. It's time to stop looking across the canal to compare ourselves, we are beyond that now. A victory for them would be big success; for us a victory against Armagh is nothing more than a stepping stone. We are aiming to win Ulster not just beat a team struggling for form. Down are superior to Armagh and will win by around four points.
Damn these bloody scoreboards. Sure what do they have to do with football anyway?
Good man PaulD. You use the league as your yardstick. You may well be correct in your assertions but most people recognise that the form book goes out the window come championship time.
Donegal should have put Down out in the first round of Ulster.
Pauld123 you do us no favours constantly talkin the team up and being ridiculously over-confident. Your heads up yer arse if ye think that we have become world beaters inside 12 months, a dose of reality might be in order. You're either on the complete wind up tryin to get the orange brethern to bite (which they will duly do) or yer living in cloud cuckoo land if ye think Down are that much better than Armagh.
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 28, 2011, 06:27:43 PM
As for the Down players credentials, most of them have an All-Ireland minor medal as we won it in 1999 and 2005.
Minor All Ireland champions - Coulter, Murtagh, John Clarke, Doyle, Sexton from 1999 and Clarke, McComiskey, McCartan, Colgan, Fitzpatrick, Garvey, Duffin, McKernan. All these lads started in a final plus others have medals from the bench.
Ulster U21 champions - Kevin McKernan, James Colgan, Conor McGinn, Peter Fitzpatrick, Paul McComiskey, Kevin Duffin, Conor Garvey, Conor Laverty, Luke Howard, Cathal Murdock, Kevin Anderson, Michael Magee and Paul Devlin.
All-Ireland U21 finalists - Murney, Fitzpatrick, Magee, Maginn, Devlin, McComiskey, Poland
CURRENT All-stars - Coulter, McVeigh, Clarke, & Hughes (not some award given years ago, sure Greg Blaney has three all stars but we're not planning on playing him in May)
CURRENT GPA Team of the year - Coulter, McVeigh, Clarke, McKernan, & Hughes
Nominated as CURRENT player of the year - Coulter
McDonnell was Player of the year 8 years ago - Not the same thing at all
As for All-Ireland club titles (give me a break) How many recent All-Ireland club champions come from counties that win the All-Ireland the same year (or indeed within 3-4 years)? Antrim (St Galls) were champions in 2009 so how come Antrim aren't storming county football? Because it is a very poor correlation! It hasn't happened since your own victory back in 2002!
However the above just shows that comparing badges is totally meaningless. If you go down the route of comparing badges everyone just ends up pulling awards from everywhere and each roll call looks as convincing as the other in its own rights. But it is irrelevant what has happened in the past. All that matters is the current team standard, not their standard 2,5 or 10 years ago.
I am surprised you have so many 13 AI medals tbh I didnt realise it was that high. Honest question would all those players make the starting 15 come May? My guess is there is at least 18 All Ireland medals in inter-county football in the hopeful/probable starting 15 for Armagh but couldnt give an exact figure.
Lets not get started about Ulster medals as the current Down team would simply not match up
The difference between Blaney and the players I pointed out is our players are now by and large in what would be the prime footballing years of their career, Blaney isn't.
The difference between St Galls and Cross is also quite stark, Cross players are mixing with players who have already been successful in other teams, St Galls players would be the only comparatively successful players in the Antrim team.
I dont agree that standard two years ago has no bearing on standard now, with the exception of McDonnell and Hearty the other players on the Armagh team are all around the historic prime age for footballers (25-28) they didnt become poor footballers over night. So to once again state my point for me Armagh have the players who are good enough to compete for trophies and win them and have proved that playing in other teams before the current Armagh set up but Armagh do not have the team as a collective unit and for me blame for that must fall squarely at the door of management
Not one bit of this info that David or Paul is stating will matter come May all in the past no matter how many medals that you all drag .Manys a man won an All Ireland and never kicked a ball as for All stars a total waste of time because not all the players that get them always deserve them this has got like a cat fight but for alll that the shape that Blaneys in he could still do a job
Quote from: NP 76 on March 28, 2011, 11:19:13 PM
Not one bit of this info that David or Paul is stating will matter come May all in the past no matter how many medals that you all drag .Manys a man won an All Ireland and never kicked a ball as for All stars a total waste of time because not all the players that get them always deserve them this has got like a cat fight but for alll that the shape that Blaneys in he could still do a job
Ok so if quality of player doesnt matter and quality of manager doesnt matter, what exactly will matter come May?
probably a refereeing error id say.
Quote from: David McKeown on March 29, 2011, 07:59:01 AM
Quote from: NP 76 on March 28, 2011, 11:19:13 PM
Not one bit of this info that David or Paul is stating will matter come May all in the past no matter how many medals that you all drag .Manys a man won an All Ireland and never kicked a ball as for All stars a total waste of time because not all the players that get them always deserve them this has got like a cat fight but for alll that the shape that Blaneys in he could still do a job
Ok so if quality of player doesnt matter and quality of manager doesnt matter, what exactly will matter come May?
for what it's worth i can't see there being much between the 2 teams, there's not light years between them as some from both sides would like to believe, there would however be a healthy confidence on both sides which is no bad thing.
as for the medals and past glories - the old adage ''you're only as good as your last/next (delete as appropriate) game'' - there are proven winners on both teams
i would say it will come down to the night, who's available, who's injured, who's suspended, who has a good day at the office, who doesn't, who the referee is, what the pitch/weather is like etc, i would expect it to be a very tight affair with a slice of paper between the 2 sides
The amount of previous medals all stars or how many hot dinners they had over the cold spell will matter its all in the PAST it will all be what happens on the day not when Stevie or Benny was nominated for player of the year award. Brick i hope it doesnt go to a refferee decision we still have the Kildare ones crying about that one last year.
Quote from: NP 76 on March 29, 2011, 09:05:00 AM
The amount of previous medals all stars or how many hot dinners they had over the cold spell will matter its all in the PAST it will all be what happens on the day not when Stevie or Benny was nominated for player of the year award. Brick i hope it doesnt go to a refferee decision we still have the Kildare ones crying about that one last year.
???
And there were three dubious decisions BTW!! ;)
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on March 29, 2011, 11:39:05 AM
And there were three dubious decisions BTW!! ;)
This thread is all your lot's fault anyway. You stole Geezer and won't give him back. :(
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 28, 2011, 03:13:39 PM
Apples, The current Down team has no pedigree at senior county level as they have won nothing yet. But that doesn't mean that Armagh have. David McKeown was roll calling your team alleging pedigree based on Hogan cup, University, minor and U21 success. Down has that same success and so if that's pedigree then we have pedigree too.
Armagh has one county All-Ireland champion (McDonnell) until it is proven that R.Clarke can return. That is hardly pedigree for the current team.
So if schools and under-age is pedigree then Down have as much pedigree as Armagh
If All-Ireland finals is pedigree then Down have more than Armagh cause more of our players have played in won
If history is pedigree then Down have spades more than Armagh
May 28th, when you are looking up your guide book to find out how to get to your first round qualifier in the Midlands, you can reflect on how much pedigree Armagh have.
You will note that I didn't claim it had pedigree, I just said that Wobbler had no room to talk given Down's recent history.
Don't you just love the confidence rolling down from the Mournes like mist. Hopefully the bright summer sun will see it off!! :D
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 28, 2011, 06:27:43 PM
However the above just shows that comparing badges is totally meaningless. If you go down the route of comparing badges everyone just ends up pulling awards from everywhere and each roll call looks as convincing as the other in its own rights. But it is irrelevant what has happened in the past. All that matters is the current team standard, not their standard 2,5 or 10 years ago.
As I said the roll call thing is just a load of hot air. Must say, I am fascinated by how readily people will take up a childish argument just because someone else makes it. Good fun for me anyway!
But on a serious note (and this one isn't a wind up like before) I do believe that we will win and I am entitled to my opinion. It is not based on ridiculous over confidence it is based on reasonable confidence. Currently we are playing better than Armagh. Our boys have a system in place and are working at it with clear progress. Armagh patently do not have their players playing to a system that gets the best out of them (hence this thread). The two sets of players are roughly similarly talented. Thus my conclusion is that I expect us to win as, on the day, we should be the team that is getting the most out of our players. It's a fairly simple conclusion and not boastful or over-confident. It is not arrogant or foolish.
I don't think that opinion is unreasonable. I also don't believe in dishonesty to save face, I've no time for cute hoorism. I think we will win and i am willing to stick my neck out an say it.
Finally on the subject of this thread - As I just wrote above, the reason I think we will win is in no small part to the fact that I see our team as better prepared and organised than the similar Armagh. Therefore I think we will win in no small part due to the inadequacies of the POR. In my opinion POR is a bluffer and a poor manager. The only thing remaining is to say whether or not he should be sacked. I think probably not, because as of now you have no reasonable alternative. If you find one then maybe yes he should be replaced. Basically he may not be the best man for the job but he is the best man right now!
Armagh are going to be alright against down, it is a massive game but we have the Cross men back in the fold and I am told we will have Clarke back which is huge if he is sharp, I think it will be tight but I fancy us to nick it in the end.
It is good to see Down emerge again, I was almost starting to feel sorry for them. :)
Stew i would say it was the same sort of sorry as we had for Armagh over a lifetime
The bottom line with Armagh is that they don't look like a well drilled team at the minute, not playing with much cohesion. The buck stops with the management for that. Maybe things will pick up for the championship, would doubt it though. If the likes of the two Clarkes are there for the championship we'll probably be relying on individual brilliance rather than fantastic team play.
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 29, 2011, 01:46:21 PM
Quote from: PAULD123 on March 28, 2011, 06:27:43 PM
However the above just shows that comparing badges is totally meaningless. If you go down the route of comparing badges everyone just ends up pulling awards from everywhere and each roll call looks as convincing as the other in its own rights. But it is irrelevant what has happened in the past. All that matters is the current team standard, not their standard 2,5 or 10 years ago.
As I said the roll call thing is just a load of hot air. Must say, I am fascinated by how readily people will take up a childish argument just because someone else makes it. Good fun for me anyway!
But on a serious note (and this one isn't a wind up like before) I do believe that we will win and I am entitled to my opinion. It is not based on ridiculous over confidence it is based on reasonable confidence. Currently we are playing better than Armagh. Our boys have a system in place and are working at it with clear progress. Armagh patently do not have their players playing to a system that gets the best out of them (hence this thread). The two sets of players are roughly similarly talented. Thus my conclusion is that I expect us to win as, on the day, we should be the team that is getting the most out of our players. It's a fairly simple conclusion and not boastful or over-confident. It is not arrogant or foolish.
I don't think that opinion is unreasonable. I also don't believe in dishonesty to save face, I've no time for cute hoorism. I think we will win and i am willing to stick my neck out an say it.
Finally on the subject of this thread - As I just wrote above, the reason I think we will win is in no small part to the fact that I see our team as better prepared and organised than the similar Armagh. Therefore I think we will win in no small part due to the inadequacies of the POR. In my opinion POR is a bluffer and a poor manager. The only thing remaining is to say whether or not he should be sacked. I think probably not, because as of now you have no reasonable alternative. If you find one then maybe yes he should be replaced. Basically he may not be the best man for the job but he is the best man right now!
I have noted now on a few occassions ur reference to POR as a bluffer. What exactly have u done in ur football and management career to call him a bluffer?
A poor tactician, a poor manager maybe, but the one thing he is not is a bluffer and if u ever met the man u would realise this!!
Rediculous comment
Lot of nonsense on this thread from both sides. Paddy is doing a job and doing it well. He`ll get another year at least.
Is that you Paddy ?
Bring back the real manager!
But then the same voices called for his removal because of the lack of half forwards, and using SK, when the alternatives have not proven any better.
Quote from: Kernan_is_King on March 31, 2011, 10:47:55 AM
Bring back the real manager!
But then the same voices called for his removal because of the lack of half forwards, and using SK, when the alternatives have not proven any better.
I wonder if the people calling for Paddy O`Rourke to go were also calling for Big Joe to go a few years ago. I`d bet none of these eejits have ever played or manged at any level, never mind county.
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 30, 2011, 09:59:50 PM
Lot of nonsense on this thread from both sides. Paddy is doing a job and doing it well. He`ll get another year at least.
you were saying?.... ::)
Quote from: lawnseed on April 03, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 30, 2011, 09:59:50 PM
Lot of nonsense on this thread from both sides. Paddy is doing a job and doing it well. He`ll get another year at least.
you were saying?.... ::)
Another year at least. He is doing ok. Division 1 status is as good as secured, what more do we want?
(Pitchforks at the ready)
Quote from: Brick Tamlin on April 03, 2011, 08:19:32 PM
(Pitchforks at the ready)
They will stab him in the back, they did it to Big Joe.
Agent orange, were you at any of Armagh's games this year ?
The management is a joke. Even schoolchildren made comments about the lack of switches. Says it all.
o'rourke is so far out of his depth it's mindblowing
Totally agree. O'Rourke is clueless. People could not understand the decision to appoint him. No wtheir worst fears are coming back to bite.
To compound this, his backroom staff are limited. Game plans are ropey. Training is poor. Players are not happy.
Quote from: ck on April 03, 2011, 09:32:05 PM
Totally agree. O'Rourke is clueless. People could not understand the decision to appoint him. No wtheir worst fears are coming back to bite.
To compound this, his backroom staff are limited. Game plans are ropey. Training is poor. Players are not happy.
If you named a team with the best players in Armagh, would they have beaten Galway today? This is a stupid thread and should not be on here. I'd say confidently that none of the prats wanting him to leave would have any experience of managing or even playing at a decent level. Playing that is, not part of the panel!!
Ck seems to think there is another fermanagh fiasco on the way or worse still cork or limerick. Pity nobody else seems to have heard about this. Me think one of his mates was dropped from the panel earlier in the year and is rightly unhappy, other than that its a load of horseshit
Quote from: Agent Orange on April 03, 2011, 08:18:09 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on April 03, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 30, 2011, 09:59:50 PM
Lot of nonsense on this thread from both sides. Paddy is doing a job and doing it well. He`ll get another year at least.
you were saying?.... ::)
Another year at least. He is doing ok. Division 1 status is as good as secured, what more do we want?
[/b]
Think you will find if Galway beat the Dubs next Sunday we go down unless by some miracle we get something out of trip to Cork
Quote from: Stevie Nicks on April 03, 2011, 09:58:27 PM
Think you will find if Galway beat the Dubs next Sunday we go down unless by some miracle we get something out of trip to Cork
To quote the Communards, 'It Ain't Necessarily So'. If Galway beat Dublin, we have to hope that Monaghan beat Mayo, and then it will come down to the two worst scoring differences getting relegated. However given that we are only currently four better off than Monaghan, and this scenario sees us finishing with a defeat and Monaghan with a victory, then in all likelihood it will be the drop!! :(
does anyone seriously think we are going to give down a decent game given the total crap on display today.. oh thats right ronans injured and the cross players.. hold on the cross players are available.. we're fukd
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 03, 2011, 09:46:13 PM
Quote from: ck on April 03, 2011, 09:32:05 PM
Totally agree. O'Rourke is clueless. People could not understand the decision to appoint him. No wtheir worst fears are coming back to bite.
To compound this, his backroom staff are limited. Game plans are ropey. Training is poor. Players are not happy.
If you named a team with the best players in Armagh, would they have beaten Galway today? This is a stupid thread and should not be on here. I'd say confidently that none of the prats wanting him to leave would have any experience of managing or even playing at a decent level. Playing that is, not part of the panel!!
It takes more than good players to win a game, it takes amongst other things good training and tactics two of the things POR has shown little evidence of bringing to the current Armagh side. As for none of the people on here expressing an opinion, their playing and/or managerial experience is irrelevant they are entitled to express an opinion without being personally insulted for it. I have said on this thread I think POR is a very poor manager but Ive also said I wouldnt sack him in the morning solely on the basis that we wont find an adequate replacement. I would however not be overly disappointed if he were to be sacked as I think this season is a write off either way.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 04, 2011, 12:57:31 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 03, 2011, 09:46:13 PM
Quote from: ck on April 03, 2011, 09:32:05 PM
Totally agree. O'Rourke is clueless. People could not understand the decision to appoint him. No wtheir worst fears are coming back to bite.
To compound this, his backroom staff are limited. Game plans are ropey. Training is poor. Players are not happy.
If you named a team with the best players in Armagh, would they have beaten Galway today? This is a stupid thread and should not be on here. I'd say confidently that none of the prats wanting him to leave would have any experience of managing or even playing at a decent level. Playing that is, not part of the panel!!
It takes more than good players to win a game, it takes amongst other things good training and tactics two of the things POR has shown little evidence of bringing to the current Armagh side. As for none of the people on here expressing an opinion, their playing and/or managerial experience is irrelevant they are entitled to express an opinion without being personally insulted for it. I have said on this thread I think POR is a very poor manager but Ive also said I wouldnt sack him in the morning solely on the basis that we wont find an adequate replacement. I would however not be overly disappointed if he were to be sacked as I think this season is a write off either way.
As a supporter who has attended all McKenna Cup matches and League matches (including Castlebar) at a fair expense along with numerous others we surely are entitled to an opinion whether or not we played the game at any level. It is paying supporters like ourselves that help finance the county board so this is an irrelevant argument regarding supporters playing careers.
Tony Mcentee in before the championship for agent ORourke.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 03, 2011, 09:46:13 PM
Quote from: ck on April 03, 2011, 09:32:05 PM
Totally agree. O'Rourke is clueless. People could not understand the decision to appoint him. No wtheir worst fears are coming back to bite.
To compound this, his backroom staff are limited. Game plans are ropey. Training is poor. Players are not happy.
If you named a team with the best players in Armagh, would they have beaten Galway today? This is a stupid thread and should not be on here. I'd say confidently that none of the prats wanting him to leave would have any experience of managing or even playing at a decent level. Playing that is, not part of the panel!!
They are paying to watch Armagh and are therefore entitled to their views. If you don't want to engage in debate I suggest you stick to the Antrim threads.
Didn't see any sight of Donal Murtagh on the line this last few games -- Gone??
Quote from: Stevie Nicks on April 04, 2011, 09:25:24 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 03, 2011, 09:46:13 PM
If you named a team with the best players in Armagh, would they have beaten Galway today? This is a stupid thread and should not be on here. I'd say confidently that none of the prats wanting him to leave would have any experience of managing or even playing at a decent level. Playing that is, not part of the panel!!
As a supporter who has attended all McKenna Cup matches and League matches (including Castlebar) at a fair expense along with numerous others we surely are entitled to an opinion whether or not we played the game at any level. It is paying supporters like ourselves that help finance the county board so this is an irrelevant argument regarding supporters playing careers.
Stevie you are entitled to your view under any circumstances. The fact that you have made the effort to attend adds to the value of that opinion. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion and no one should try to prevent you from holding it even if they disagree
Quote from: Sandy Hill on April 04, 2011, 09:50:20 AM
Didn't see any sight of Donal Murtagh on the line this last few games -- Gone??
Seems to be sitting up in stands and in contact with Line via radio. Appeared down on pitch at full time yesterday
You have to give credit to Justin McNulty for getting Laois promoted. I don't think that Laois were obvious promotion candidates from Div 2, so the management team probably helped. Well done.
This thread seems to top the poll every Sunday night without fail.
O'Rourke kept Armagh in Div.1, fair play. All-be-it very lucky.
One quick question, O'Rourkes backroom team has got a alating on these threads but who exactly are they? Murtagh, is he Crossmaglen? The rugby fella taking the weights I know. There is some other lad called Jennings who does tactics apparently. Anyone know?
I know a couple of panel members and they don't speak well of any of them, to say the least.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 10, 2011, 09:19:28 PM
You have to give credit to Justin McNulty for getting Laois promoted. I don't think that Laois were obvious promotion candidates from Div 2, so the management team probably helped. Well done.
Is his loss from Armagh backroom team why the tactics have been so haphazard this year! McNulty at Laois, Mcgeeney and O'Rourke at Kildare, Grimley at Meath, Morrison and McDonnell helping Leitrim and Louth last year and Armagh cannot get an Armagh man to manage them. No reflection on POR but we have enough Armagh men to find an Armagh manager!
Quote from: Throw ball on April 11, 2011, 12:46:50 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 10, 2011, 09:19:28 PM
You have to give credit to Justin McNulty for getting Laois promoted. I don't think that Laois were obvious promotion candidates from Div 2, so the management team probably helped. Well done.
Is his loss from Armagh backroom team why the tactics have been so haphazard this year! McNulty at Laois, Mcgeeney and O'Rourke at Kildare, Grimley at Meath, Morrison and McDonnell helping Leitrim and Louth last year and Armagh cannot get an Armagh man to manage them. No reflection on POR but we have enough Armagh men to find an Armagh manager!
i would have paddy o'r before these two
Quote from: Throw ball on April 11, 2011, 12:46:50 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 10, 2011, 09:19:28 PM
You have to give credit to Justin McNulty for getting Laois promoted. I don't think that Laois were obvious promotion candidates from Div 2, so the management team probably helped. Well done.
Is his loss from Armagh backroom team why the tactics have been so haphazard this year! McNulty at Laois, Mcgeeney and O'Rourke at Kildare, Grimley at Meath, Morrison and McDonnell helping Leitrim and Louth last year and Armagh cannot get an Armagh man to manage them. No reflection on POR but we have enough Armagh men to find an Armagh manager!
And what have these mercenaries achieved other than healthy bank balances at the cost of the grass root members?
Championship is where the real football is played men. I read this thread a while back an was so surprised by the lack of faith showed by your counties supporters. Armagh were superb tonight and showed real hunger, Paddy also got his team selection spot on.
He's done the job. Credit where credit is. due.
Fair play to Paddy. He deserves lots of credit for tonights result and performance.
Have always felt that we have good enough players to be in top 8 or so in the country. Still not sure if Paddy is the man to get the best out of them but a few more performances like tonight and I would be happy to be proved wrong.
Performance tonight certainly displels rumours about unrest in camp.
It all clicked for Armagh tonight. My sources have suggested the players discontent over the last few months against the management team has brought the players closer together. Maybe in spite of management?
Regardless, Paddy got it all right today so fair play. Let's see where they end up.
I am still to be convinced about him as the manager to take this team where it needs to be. I don't think it is a coincidence that the forwards played better after Oisin was brought in, nor do I see it a coincidence that CV played a strong game after McGrane being there for some work. Maybe this is a trend that POR will continue, it was something that JK did with us in Cross quite a lot, he realised he didn't know everything. If POR tales this approach and manages in a Clive Woodward style then I would welcome that. If he can do that then he deserves to be recognised as a good manager. One swallow does not make a summer though.
Quote from: ck on May 29, 2011, 12:46:08 AM
It all clicked for Armagh tonight. My sources have suggested the players discontent over the last few months against the management team has brought the players closer together. Maybe in spite of management?
Regardless, Paddy got it all right today so fair play. Let's see where they end up.
My sources have suggested that you talk a serious amount of shite.
Quote from: ck on May 29, 2011, 12:46:08 AM
It all clicked for Armagh tonight. My sources have suggested the players discontent over the last few months against the management team has brought the players closer together. Maybe in spite of management?
Regardless, Paddy got it all right today so fair play. Let's see where they end up.
Holy jesus give the man some credit, are you seriously trying to say the reason the team won yesterday was to spite the management? you do chat some brown.
Well done Paddy.
wearing an armagh hat changes nothing i'm not convinced yet i think the arrival of oisin and mcgrane was forced on paddy probably by the county board and the need for some change, had down won paddy may as well got on the bus home with them for it would have been the safest place for him. the test will be in his team selection for the next match hes liable to revert to the old style handpassing crap at the drop of an armagh hat
Well done Paddy, tactics and team set-up were spot on Saturday night. Credit where credit is due. A sign of a good manager is to see his/her failing & bring in a support team to fill the gaps.
Like many I seriously doubted Paddy was up to the task. I was however heartened by the early signs last year only to be totally dismayed by the performance against Derry. Saturday night was a return to that early style of play and good to see. I still have doubts, but a good manager recognises his own failings and drafts in people who can help so fair play to him for that. A similsr performance and result against Derry is now required so here's hoping. A repeat against Derry is a must.
Quote from: Take Your Points on May 30, 2011, 07:55:50 PM
I could have stood on the sideline and waved both arms in urging the players forward and they would still have won so long as I had an experienced conditioning coach, an AI winning manager to coach the defence and give advice and the services of two of Armagh's most experienced and best players of the last twenty years available to coach the forwards and the midfield.
There is still a chaotic approach to the overall management but the combination of all those present was more than enough to put on a great display and hammer the old enemy.
No u couldnt as u think county players would have to same respect for an nameless poster on a gaa forum compared to a multi all ireland winner who has also coached club teams to numerous championships and taken an armagh team that is in transition to a division 2 title and kept them in the first division without the cross contingent or arguably their best player.
What exactly is on ur CV again that ur think of motivating a team to the same level as POR does??
Quote from: whitegoodman on May 30, 2011, 08:12:07 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on May 30, 2011, 07:55:50 PM
I could have stood on the sideline and waved both arms in urging the players forward and they would still have won so long as I had an experienced conditioning coach, an AI winning manager to coach the defence and give advice and the services of two of Armagh's most experienced and best players of the last twenty years available to coach the forwards and the midfield.
There is still a chaotic approach to the overall management but the combination of all those present was more than enough to put on a great display and hammer the old enemy.
No u couldnt as u think county players would have to same respect for an nameless poster on a gaa forum compared to a multi all ireland winner who has also coached club teams to numerous championships and taken an armagh team that is in transition to a division 2 title and kept them in the first division without the cross contingent or arguably their best player.
What exactly is on ur CV again that ur think of motivating a team to the same level as POR does??
Our TYP isnt without some management experience. Whats yours?
None but I'm not claiming to be able to do the same job as por ffs. Maybe the armagh county board should look here for their next manager saying as there are so many experts on here
Take Your Points all he has done with yous boys is win a game against Down . No one said he was a great coach or manager if they did they didnt follow Down when he was manager . We couldnt wait to get rid of him just like all you boys until saturday night now he seems to be a folk hero with you all
POR, Oisin McConville, Paul McGrane, Donal Murtagh, McGurn ... not a bad management and backup team in anyone's books.
The team were to a man determined to win, I don't believe that was down to Paddy. I also don't believe that they will maintain it. So when Armagh lose, Paddy will once again be vilified.
In truth Down came back and got a point ahead. If we had got a lucky break at that point (Hearty slip, dropped ball in defence, a lucky bounce) things could suddenly have changed and Paddy would now be under bigger pressure than ever. Armagh deserved to win but one (undeserved) lucky break could have swung it in our favour.
Paddy is far from out of the woods yet, unless he gets Armagh to an AI semi as a minimum I expect Armagh fans will be disappointed and if he fails to get to a quarter final they will be calling for his head.
(Probably correctly so)
So u believe that the teams motivation had nothing to do with O Rourke??
U also believe that if Armagh win an Ulster title and are then beaten in the quarter final by say the losers of Kerry and Cork that Armagh supporters will be disappointed??
ABSOLUTE NONSENSE
All this stuff about lucky bounce or dropped balls is also a waste of time. U could say that about virtually in match in the country. Jes Down could have been beaten several times last year if ur thinking like that, would that have made wee James a poor manager or a bluffer as u like to call POR!!!!
The facts are that down were beaten by the better team on the day due to a fitter, more motivated and more tactically aware Armagh side and POR should be given some sort of credit for this and at least as much as mcgrane or mcconville who havnt been involved in the setup longer than a wet wkend.
Quote from: whitegoodman on May 31, 2011, 01:17:33 PM
So u believe that the teams motivation had nothing to do with O Rourke??
U also believe that if Armagh win an Ulster title and are then beaten in the quarter final by say the losers of Kerry and Cork that Armagh supporters will be disappointed??
ABSOLUTE NONSENSE
All this stuff about lucky bounce or dropped balls is also a waste of time. U could say that about virtually in match in the country. Jes Down could have been beaten several times last year if ur thinking like that, would that have made wee James a poor manager or a bluffer as u like to call POR!!!!
The facts are that down were beaten by the better team on the day due to a fitter, more motivated and more tactically aware Armagh side and POR should be given some sort of credit for this and at least as much as mcgrane or mcconville who havnt been involved in the setup longer than a wet wkend.
He didn't have them motivated before so why now? Yes I do believe that the motivation came from within and not from the bench. The players have been slated and written off by the media and I believe the reaction was their own. No point saying it is absolute nonsense because neither of us know how much on an influence POR had. I have my opinion, you have yours and until it can be shown either way neither can be labelled nonesense in nice big captial letters.
Because we all know that if you put stuff in capitals it suddenly makes them more correct and true!!!!
Quote from: Take Your Points on May 30, 2011, 11:10:35 PM
Quote from: whitegoodman on May 30, 2011, 10:05:39 PM
None but I'm not claiming to be able to do the same job as por ffs. Maybe the armagh county board should look here for their next manager saying as there are so many experts on here
At the end of the day, you lot got rid of POR as your manager because he wasn't able to make anything of the county side and the rumours and stories from Down were legend about his tactical abilities, coaching and the physical training. So don't come out now and make out that he was one of Down's greatest coaches/managers. he was one of a number of your AI winning sides who gave Down management a go and couldn't pull them out of the mire. It would appear that the light at the end of tunnel with wee James may well just be another train coming straight down the line.
In fairness even God couldn't have done any thing with the panel POR had in Down. :D
Quote from: NP 76 on May 30, 2011, 11:40:49 PM
Take Your Points all he has done with yous boys is win a game against Down . No one said he was a great coach or manager if they did they didnt follow Down when he was manager . We couldnt wait to get rid of him just like all you boys until saturday night now he seems to be a folk hero with you all
No one is saying that. Most Armagh fans wanted him out from the start. Some such as myself had doubts which weren't helped by the Championship performances of last year and league this year. Many again attributed the overly defensive strategy to Donal Murtagh's influence. However if Saturday marks a return to last years league in terms of style and performance then POR deserves credit.
Quote from: Take Your Points on May 30, 2011, 07:55:50 PM
I could have stood on the sideline and waved both arms in urging the players forward and they would still have won so long as I had an experienced conditioning coach, an AI winning manager to coach the defence and give advice and the services of two of Armagh's most experienced and best players of the last twenty years available to coach the forwards and the midfield.
There is still a chaotic approach to the overall management but the combination of all those present was more than enough to put on a great display and hammer the old enemy.
In fairness TYP is it not good management to surround yourself with good coaches and advisers? Don't get me wrong I'm not 100% convinced by him myself but we have to give him credit where credit is due. He has always preached about letting players express themselves and that's exactly what he did on Saturday night. For too long in Armagh we have paralysed ourselves with defensive tactics. Is it an accident that our HF line played well when they were free of the overly defensive tactics?
He was correctly criticised during the League for a lack of cohesive forward play and that seems to have been addressed with Oisin coming in.
I'm not saying we are finished article and the jury is still out but to dismiss POR's input from Saturday night's win is OTT.
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 31, 2011, 02:04:26 PM
No one is saying that. Most Armagh fans wanted him out from the start. Some such as myself had doubts which weren't helped by the Championship performances of last year and league this year. Many again attributed the overly defensive strategy to Donal Murtagh's influence. However if Saturday marks a return to last years league in terms of style and performance then POR deserves credit.
Last years performances v Dublin and Monaghan were depressing,2 forwards in the oppositions half of the field and rugby style lateral handpassing.
If Armagh continue to play like they did on Saturday with a half forward line, fast kick passing out of defence and evidence of a game plan then I expect most supporters will be happy enough. Short of winning Ulster or reaching an AI semi final POR may not convince many of his doubters but Saturday has set the benchmark for future performances.
Great to read the positive responses to the return of attacking football from Armagh.
I know its easier to admit this after you've just won (AGAIN) over yer big rivals.
I know for a while all the talk was about "I'd rather won ugly than lose every year" but with so many teams playing with this win at all costs attitude then our game was really becoming a horrible negative game to watch.
I hate to say Spillane was right but there was far too much emphasis but on stopping the other teams from scoring or having any space.
As a neutral I still don't think PoR has the makings of a great manager and is too dependant on those around him. However, I know its only one game but you could see the Armagh players seem to have a new lease of life and enjoyed playing for the jersey again.
A lot of people both Armagh and Down who went to the game have said that they expect Armagh to lose to Derry. I have to say I don't see it myself but then again I am not familiar with Derry this season.
If it does happen then paddy will be under pressure again. It will be interesting to see if Armagh can produce a similar performance to Saturday's in their next game. A lot of people have said to me that they don't think they can. For the record, I personally see no reason why they can't.
Though one reason may be that Derry will probably have a better midfield than ours, which was pretty terrible.
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 01, 2011, 11:08:01 AM
A lot of people both Armagh and Down who went to the game have said that they expect Armagh to lose to Derry. I have to say I don't see it myself but then again I am not familiar with Derry this season.
Paul most of the guys i have been speaking to think we will go to an Ulster final, I for one can`t see us losing to Derry but it will be tough. The down game has taken these guys on a fair way not just in the manner of the victory but the belief that they are a decent side (which a lot didnt have )
Training is really on the up
Quote from: Fuzzman on June 01, 2011, 10:49:03 AM
Great to read the positive responses to the return of attacking football from Armagh.
I know its easier to admit this after you've just won (AGAIN) over yer big rivals.
I know for a while all the talk was about "I'd rather won ugly than lose every year" but with so many teams playing with this win at all costs attitude then our game was really becoming a horrible negative game to watch.
I hate to say Spillane was right but there was far too much emphasis but on stopping the other teams from scoring or having any space.
As a neutral I still don't think PoR has the makings of a great manager and is too dependant on those around him. However, I know its only one game but you could see the Armagh players seem to have a new lease of life and enjoyed playing for the jersey again.
As an O'Rourke sceptic I would disagree with the point on relying on backroom staff, the sign of a good manager is picking the right people to advise. I think the main difference this year has been the use of McGrane and McConville. I know Donal Murtagh was successful with Cross but his influence produced the over defensive game plan we witnessed last year. I'm still a sceptic but we'll see after Derry whether POR is going to prove us all wrong.
As an aside I would rather we stayed positive and lost to Derry and continue to develop this style of play tahn revert to type and win only to be demolished in an Ulster final. Down and Cork in this years league and the championship games fro last year prove that we can't play the defensive blanket to any great effect.
PAULD123
you talk some absolute tripe. having spoken to a member of the starting 15 from Saturday, he assured me that POR was hell-bent on beating Down and made that very clear during each training session. And to question why only now is he motivating? How would you know? Ask any Armagh fan, their main aim for this year was to stay up, and POR achieved that without the services of the Cross contingent.
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on March 01, 2011, 05:01:12 PM
All this talk about Armagh being crap - what do you reckon the 1st round score will be?
Do you seriously reckon Armagh will be trounced? Do you think Paddy O'Rourke or the players will let that happen?
I reckon three to four in it, but I honestly can't say which team will win.
Down stuffed Armagh last year in the Marshes, yet Armagh made them look very ordinary in the final.
I refer to my quote above from earlier on in the year, so can say that I wasn't that surprised on Saturday night, still felt like dung though.
The defeats to the main teams in the league should have been a wake up call to the management regarding defence.
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on June 02, 2011, 12:38:09 AM
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on March 01, 2011, 05:01:12 PM
All this talk about Armagh being crap - what do you reckon the 1st round score will be?
Do you seriously reckon Armagh will be trounced? Do you think Paddy O'Rourke or the players will let that happen?
I reckon three to four in it, but I honestly can't say which team will win.
Down stuffed Armagh last year in the Marshes, yet Armagh made them look very ordinary in the final.
I refer to my quote above from earlier on in the year, so can say that I wasn't that surprised on Saturday night, still felt like dung though.
The defeats to the main teams in the league should have been a wake up call to the management regarding defence.
Saturday put paid to the myth that Armagh do not have the players to compete at the highest level. So it's now up to Paddy and Co to prove that they are up to it too.
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 02, 2011, 10:08:19 AM
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on June 02, 2011, 12:38:09 AM
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on March 01, 2011, 05:01:12 PM
All this talk about Armagh being crap - what do you reckon the 1st round score will be?
Do you seriously reckon Armagh will be trounced? Do you think Paddy O'Rourke or the players will let that happen?
I reckon three to four in it, but I honestly can't say which team will win.
Down stuffed Armagh last year in the Marshes, yet Armagh made them look very ordinary in the final.
I refer to my quote above from earlier on in the year, so can say that I wasn't that surprised on Saturday night, still felt like dung though.
The defeats to the main teams in the league should have been a wake up call to the management regarding defence.
Saturday put paid to the myth that Armagh do not have the players to compete at the highest level. So it's now up to Paddy and Co to prove that they are up to it too.
That's based on the assumption that Down are at / somewhere near / the highest level. I'm not convinced.
Quote from: haveaharp on June 02, 2011, 10:21:51 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 02, 2011, 10:08:19 AM
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on June 02, 2011, 12:38:09 AM
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on March 01, 2011, 05:01:12 PM
All this talk about Armagh being crap - what do you reckon the 1st round score will be?
Do you seriously reckon Armagh will be trounced? Do you think Paddy O'Rourke or the players will let that happen?
I reckon three to four in it, but I honestly can't say which team will win.
Down stuffed Armagh last year in the Marshes, yet Armagh made them look very ordinary in the final.
I refer to my quote above from earlier on in the year, so can say that I wasn't that surprised on Saturday night, still felt like dung though.
+1, have always mantained Down overachieved big time last year. Though have to say i am more optomistic about Armagh now
The defeats to the main teams in the league should have been a wake up call to the management regarding defence.
Saturday put paid to the myth that Armagh do not have the players to compete at the highest level. So it's now up to Paddy and Co to prove that they are up to it too.
That's based on the assumption that Down are at / somewhere near / the highest level. I'm not convinced.
put every penny you have on a tyrone armagh ulster final
Quote from: armagho9 on June 02, 2011, 05:54:15 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on June 02, 2011, 10:21:51 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 02, 2011, 10:08:19 AM
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on June 02, 2011, 12:38:09 AM
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on March 01, 2011, 05:01:12 PM
All this talk about Armagh being crap - what do you reckon the 1st round score will be?
Do you seriously reckon Armagh will be trounced? Do you think Paddy O'Rourke or the players will let that happen?
I reckon three to four in it, but I honestly can't say which team will win.
Down stuffed Armagh last year in the Marshes, yet Armagh made them look very ordinary in the final.
I refer to my quote above from earlier on in the year, so can say that I wasn't that surprised on Saturday night, still felt like dung though.
+1, have always mantained Down overachieved big time last year. Though have to say i am more optomistic about Armagh now
The defeats to the main teams in the league should have been a wake up call to the management regarding defence.
Saturday put paid to the myth that Armagh do not have the players to compete at the highest level. So it's now up to Paddy and Co to prove that they are up to it too.
That's based on the assumption that Down are at / somewhere near / the highest level. I'm not convinced.
sorry, bit in bold was my reply earlier. Not sure how it ended up in there
Quote from: rrhf on June 02, 2011, 07:01:42 PM
put every penny you have on a tyrone armagh ulster final
go ahead, i agree, it's Armagh's to lose :)
People predicting an Armagh v Tyrone Ulster final already. A swallow doesnt make a summer as far as Armagh is concerned. Armagh got it right last week, Downs weaknesses in defence exposed for all to see. Tougher days ahead for POR and Armagh.
I predict;
Derry V Donegal Ulster final
Derry to be Ulster champions
Down, Monaghan and Tyrone will be in the qualifiers longer than Armagh
QuoteDown, Monaghan and Tyrone will be in the qualifiers longer than Armagh
Well you got one right! Armagh is not planning to be in the qualifiers.
Fightin talk Paddy! lol
Quote from: ck on June 02, 2011, 09:15:49 PM
People predicting an Armagh v Tyrone Ulster final already. A swallow doesnt make a summer as far as Armagh is concerned. Armagh got it right last week, Downs weaknesses in defence exposed for all to see. Tougher days ahead for POR and Armagh.
I predict;
Derry V Donegal Ulster final
Derry to be Ulster champions
Down, Monaghan and Tyrone will be in the qualifiers longer than Armagh
certainly agree with the first bit. Armagh got it right on the night, could easily go out and get hammered next game. Will be hard to repeat the effort especially they have now shown their hand.
Plus half of the county appear to be willing the manager to fail. That could be a major problem. I have no love of outside managers but Paddy seems to be the most genuine outside manager in the game, and hes doing the job voluntarily which not everyone can claim.
Quote from: rrhf on June 03, 2011, 10:40:23 AM
Plus half of the county appear to be willing the manager to fail. That could be a major problem. I have no love of outside managers but Paddy seems to be the most genuine outside manager in the game, and hes doing the job voluntarily which not everyone can claim.
You are absolutely right. Paddy is a true gent and very genuine. Personally I just don't think he has enough about him to be a successful manager though. He has brought in a few ex players this year to help out which clearly has helped. McGrane brought in to work with midfield - Charlie Vernon played his best ever game and Armagh wiped Down out at mid. McConville brought in for forwards. Armagh full forward line won the game for Armagh.
Credit to Paddy for bringing in these boys. He is smart enough to know his own limitations from a tactical point of view.
As for his original backroom team. At least they have stopped allowing the weight lifter guy take training!
Quote from: rrhf on June 03, 2011, 10:40:23 AM
Plus half of the county appear to be willing the manager to fail. That could be a major problem. I have no love of outside managers but Paddy seems to be the most genuine outside manager in the game, and hes doing the job voluntarily which not everyone can claim.
A Paddy sceptic, I was pleasantly surprised by the start last year and then Dismayed come championship. That said I hope he stays in the job for a long time...as that means we are winning and no true fan would want to see us lose just to get rid of Paddy. Derry is a big game and more of a must win than Down but heres hoping.
Quote from: ck on June 03, 2011, 10:52:01 AM
Quote from: rrhf on June 03, 2011, 10:40:23 AM
Plus half of the county appear to be willing the manager to fail. That could be a major problem. I have no love of outside managers but Paddy seems to be the most genuine outside manager in the game, and hes doing the job voluntarily which not everyone can claim.
You are absolutely right. Paddy is a true gent and very genuine. Personally I just don't think he has enough about him to be a successful manager though. He has brought in a few ex players this year to help out which clearly has helped. McGrane brought in to work with midfield - Charlie Vernon played his best ever game and Armagh wiped Down out at mid. McConville brought in for forwards. Armagh full forward line won the game for Armagh.
Credit to Paddy for bringing in these boys. He is smart enough to know his own limitations from a tactical point of view.
As for his original backroom team. At least they have stopped allowing the weight lifter guy take training!
Hmmm, that's not really accurate. Vernon has had at least a couple of more outstanding games in this year's league alone. He's been on the up for a while now and his preformance at the weekend fell in tune with that.
Its all paddys fault.
Quote from: bcarrier on June 19, 2011, 02:32:45 PM
Its all paddys fault.
:) ;) :D ;D
I waswaiting on that. LOL
There'll be a few more pages on this before midnight if the result remains the same.
Second hammering in 12 months.
Poor form the line today.
It wasn't lost on the line though, no-one could've handled Bradley today. And Lynch was fairly lively too.
Quote from: John Martin on June 19, 2011, 04:14:52 PM
It wasn't lost on the line though, no-one could've handled Bradley today. And Lynch was fairly lively too.
Surely dropping a man back in front of Bradley was the obvious thing to do from about five minutes in?
Mallon should have been on him from the start, or at least after Donaghys yellow. Mallon seemed to slip for Bradleys goal.
Mc Keever was never going to handle him.
Why oh why oh why did Paddy bring on Johnny Murtagh? He ran around like a blue arse fly and did nothing. One of the men he could have brought on though was sitting in the stand behind me (SK).
totally devoid of a gameplan, far too slow to make changes cant understand why he left paul duffy out, stupid to put mckeever at fullback when he was the main source of dirty ball at mf. this campaign is over for armagh its not paddys fault our county board should have grown a pair and sacked him 6 months ago.
Quote from: lawnseed on June 19, 2011, 09:49:59 PM
totally devoid of a gameplan, far too slow to make changes cant understand why he left paul duffy out, stupid to put mckeever at fullback when he was the main source of dirty ball at mf. this campaign is over for armagh its not paddys fault our county board should have grown a pair and sacked him 6 months ago.
bbc indicated duffy tweaked a hamstring or something which is why he didnt start. Cant put 2 good performances together in championship football under POR, has to be something there
Anyone know why Grugan did not come on instead of Murtagh?
Surprised at that myself orior after all the praise that Por heaped on him after the Mc Kenna cup game against Down . He referred to him as the next Martin Clarke or words to that effect if memory serves me right
I believe that Armagh suffered from the whole hype of the Down game. The attitude Armagh displayed in that game was fantastic. It is all to frequent in sport that when a team digs so deep for a result they rarely do it in the following match. Armagh are not a bad team but were wiped out in midfield and also misplaced an incredible amount of forward passes. It actually sounds like the precise criticism that we levelled at Down after the last match.
In our match Armagh clearly wanted it more, in this match Derry were the team to show that attitude.
For all my misgivings about Paddy O'Rourke, I think it is short-sighted to try to blame him for this result. Yeah he could have helped out with a few tactical changes or instructions but lets face it, Derry were more determined at every position on the pitch to get their hands to the ball first. That's not POR's fault. The players lost it, POR just didn't help.
Pauld do you not think that when a manager sees his MF getting cleaned out that much that he should know that he either needs to sort out his MF or if he can't do that then he needs to deploy another man in front of Derry's best player.
Would ye leave Gooch one on one with Gordon all game?
Of course it was the players that should foot the bill but they seemed shell shocked at how Derry dominated all over the pitch. Do you think Jim McGuiness would have left only one man on Bradley when he saw what he was capable of yesterday. He has more balls to say to hell with what the media and fans think. Bradley needs to be stopped at all costs or he's gonna tear us to shreds.
Paddy was out-thought on the sideline, granted & his management team seem to be slow to make the correct decisions quickly & when it matters. That aside, I think he has brought a lot of passion back into the team and the team seem to be content enough with him. It was always going to be a slow & painful rebuilding period after the highs of the past 10 years. To be honest, I think he is doing as well as can be expected with what is available to him, lose a couple of pleayers and we just don'thave quality replacements on the bench. Many players underperformed yesterday..... thats why we were beaten
For those who ever backed O'Rourke yesterday certainly showed yous up. Brennan totally showed him up on the line with his decisions.
How did Vincie Martin start. Hes slow useless and should be nowhere near the team and then getting him to mark Lynch. Is O'Rourke on a different planet? Lynch is a flying machine was always going to destroy him. Then he leaves him on him to he gets injured. Brennan switched Brian Og after 10 mins. Next thing yes he was right to try and play the same way against down but after 10 15 mins a blind man could see we were having serious problems in the full back line especially with eoin bradley. He had to be double marked i.e a sweeper which we played to beat them last year. A gud manager has to be able to switch the gameplan if its not working. I have seen Mickey Harte do it so many times if his full back line getting destroyed he changes it and will bring joe mcmahon or someone back in front of them. These games are won by small thing on the field and by decisions made on the line. Our problem is we have the weakest line probably in the country. Such a joke. Joe Brolly summed it up exactly "Paddy O'Rourke is just a bad manager."
Why did our county board employ this tube and why do they continue to employ him!
Everything and I mean every resource and every gaa person in the county should be working from now on getting McGeeney into the Armagh job for next year!!!!!!
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 05:20:00 PM
....Everything and I mean every resource and every gaa person in the county should be working from now on getting McGeeney into the Armagh job for next year!!!!!!
Tevez, I think there is a near mythological obsession with McGeeny. He has failed to get Kildare out of Division 2 and I honestly belive they will lose to Dublin next week. Where will that leave McGeeney as this great manager that you so desperately want? It will leave him in exactly the same place as Armagh are right now. Of course they might win but I honestly belive Dublin have too much for them. You have to remember that McGeeney has one excellent championship run behind him, but that came with two bad league campaigns. Also they rode their luck in the championship with an escape against Antrim. They could easily have been the nobody's of 2010.
Sometimes the grass is greener!!!!
To be fair Kildare are a very limited team in my opinion. They have no Jamie Clarke in there forward line or a player like Ciaran Mc'keever in their defence. He has done wonders with that panel of players with Kildare. Plus and this is the main point the players in Armagh would jump through hopes to get him in. They would do anything. There is so much respect there. Do you think they would do the same for O'Rourke.
Finally I am realistic that McGeeney may not happen but it should be vigoursly pursued. Anyway there are plenty of other Armagh men who could do a much better job and are far more astute than Paddy "clueless" O'Rourke.
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 20, 2011, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 05:20:00 PM
....Everything and I mean every resource and every gaa person in the county should be working from now on getting McGeeney into the Armagh job for next year!!!!!!
Tevez, I think there is a near mythological obsession with McGeeny. He has failed to get Kildare out of Division 2 and I honestly belive they will lose to Dublin next week. Where will that leave McGeeney as this great manager that you so desperately want? It will leave him in exactly the same place as Armagh are right now. Of course they might win but I honestly belive Dublin have too much for them. You have to remember that McGeeney has one excellent championship run behind him, but that came with two bad league campaigns. Also they rode their luck in the championship with an escape against Antrim. They could easily have been the nobody's of 2010.
Sometimes the grass is greener!!!!
Sure we'll have to endure the man's management until 2013 anyway so it's a pointless conversation: http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2010/0915/mcgeeneyk_kildare.html (http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2010/0915/mcgeeneyk_kildare.html)
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 20, 2011, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 05:20:00 PM
....Everything and I mean every resource and every gaa person in the county should be working from now on getting McGeeney into the Armagh job for next year!!!!!!
Tevez, I think there is a near mythological obsession with McGeeny. He has failed to get Kildare out of Division 2 and I honestly belive they will lose to Dublin next week. Where will that leave McGeeney as this great manager that you so desperately want? It will leave him in exactly the same place as Armagh are right now. Of course they might win but I honestly belive Dublin have too much for them. You have to remember that McGeeney has one excellent championship run behind him, but that came with two bad league campaigns. Also they rode their luck in the championship with an escape against Antrim. They could easily have been the nobody's of 2010.
Sometimes the grass is greener!!!!
Apply the same to your own county.
Boys catch a grip theres no such thing as a contract really managers can leave when they want and be sacked when the county board decides so.
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
Boys catch a grip theres no such thing as a contract really managers can leave when they want and be sacked when the county board decides so.
Think you need to heed ur own advice
Why do I need to catch a grip. Contracts in Gaelic football aren't worth the paper there written on managers and county boards can do what they like. True or not?
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 08:15:19 PM
Why do I need to catch a grip. Contracts in Gaelic football aren't worth the paper there written on managers and county boards can do what they like. True or not?
Contracts? What contracts? I don't think they are written on paper in the first place.
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 07:24:25 PM
To be fair Kildare are a very limited team in my opinion. They have no Jamie Clarke in there forward line or a player like Ciaran Mc'keever in their defence. He has done wonders with that panel of players with Kildare. Plus and this is the main point the players in Armagh would jump through hopes to get him in. They would do anything. There is so much respect there. Do you think they would do the same for O'Rourke.
Finally I am realistic that McGeeney may not happen but it should be vigoursly pursued. Anyway there are plenty of other Armagh men who could do a much better job and are far more astute than Paddy "clueless" O'Rourke.
You're right. We don't.
But you don't have a Willie Heffernan, so there :P
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 08:15:19 PM
Why do I need to catch a grip. Contracts in Gaelic football aren't worth the paper there written on managers and county boards can do what they like. True or not?
1) POR is there until at least the end of the year, there is no chance of him being sacked before then, get over it
2) McGeeny does not want the armagh job for various reasons, get over it
3) Armagh (as well as Down) are every bit as limited as Kildare. Outside of Kerry, Cork and possibly Dublin and Tyrone there are a number of teams at the same level, Kildare and Armagh being 2 of them. As has been pointed out McGeeny failed to take Kildare out of Div 2 two years in a row, POR took Armagh up in his first year and kept them up this year without the cross contingent or the great Ronan Clarke.
Ur extreme views are difficult to take seriously. POR may not be a good manager but he isnt the worst in the world and mcgeeny isnt the messiah!!!
First of all I recognise it wont happen before this season ends but it MUST happen after! Second Paddy O'Rourke is a dud manager and that is recognised by the vast majority of Armagh supporters who were in Clones. Next I suggest u worry about ur own team and leave us to worry about Armagh. Lastly there will be problems in getting McGeeney, but nothing is impossible if you try hard enough!
Fair play Carlos, constructive well thought out response ;)
The basis for judging a managers ability should be to ask if he has got the best out of the players at his disposal. McGeeney in my opinion has done this and more. He has moulded a team in a mirror image of himself. That Kildare squad is like a family and even though they lack absolute quality they were only one bad umpiring decision from an AI final last year.
Contrast that to a fragmented disjointed Armagh team with a clear lack of direction and the relative abilities between McGeeney and POR are obvious. I don't think there is an Armagh supporter out there who if told McGeeney was replacing POR tomorrow wouldn't be happy. Will it happen? No, but as Tevez suggests, it should be pursued vigorously. I have a feeling that McGeeney could become Dublin manager at some stage in the next few years.
Yellowcard u are spot on!
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 20, 2011, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 05:20:00 PM
....Everything and I mean every resource and every gaa person in the county should be working from now on getting McGeeney into the Armagh job for next year!!!!!!
Tevez, I think there is a near mythological obsession with McGeeny. He has failed to get Kildare out of Division 2 and I honestly belive they will lose to Dublin next week. Where will that leave McGeeney as this great manager that you so desperately want? It will leave him in exactly the same place as Armagh are right now. Of course they might win but I honestly belive Dublin have too much for them. You have to remember that McGeeney has one excellent championship run behind him, but that came with two bad league campaigns. Also they rode their luck in the championship with an escape against Antrim. They could easily have been the nobody's of 2010.
Sometimes the grass is greener!!!!
I agree with you I don't think Geezer is the answer. He's allegedly on too much in Kildare. If he comes to Armagh it will only be when the pot runs dry in Kildare. Time for McAlinden, McGrane and McConville to ride to the rescue.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on June 20, 2011, 08:34:51 PM
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 07:24:25 PM
To be fair Kildare are a very limited team in my opinion. They have no Jamie Clarke in there forward line or a player like Ciaran Mc'keever in their defence. He has done wonders with that panel of players with Kildare. Plus and this is the main point the players in Armagh would jump through hopes to get him in. They would do anything. There is so much respect there. Do you think they would do the same for O'Rourke.
Finally I am realistic that McGeeney may not happen but it should be vigoursly pursued. Anyway there are plenty of other Armagh men who could do a much better job and are far more astute than Paddy "clueless" O'Rourke.
You're right. We don't.
But you don't have a Willie Heffernan, so there :P
And as of now you are still in the provincial championship.
The thing I'm struggling to fathom over the past few pages is why a consensus has been reached that Kildare have somehow got a weak squad, with limited resources compared to Armagh.
Armagh have 2-3 very good players, 2-3 very useful players, 5-6 county standard players, and are carrying the rest. Kildare have that, plus a little more. Only blinkererdom can convince you otherwise.
Armagh were sensational against Down in that every one of them apart from McDonnell played as well they can. But that's the exception for Armagh, not the norm, as the players just aren't good enough.
If McGeeney was silly enough to take the Armagh job next season he might improve them. But only from 8th-9th best team in Ireland to the 7th-8th best team in Ireland. That's their threshold; they can't go beyond it.
Amazing that when Armagh beat Down in Athletic Grounds there was such gushing praise for McConville & McGrane and then all of a sudden they get tanked by Derry and its all P O'R's fault. Did the other two guys just disappear after the first round ::)
Quote from: norabeag on June 20, 2011, 11:21:13 PM
Amazing that when Armagh beat Down in Athletic Grounds there was such gushing praise for McConville & McGrane and then all of a sudden they get tanked by Derry and its all P O'R's fault. Did the other two guys just disappear after the first round ::)
Well it is.
McGrane and McConville were brought in to improve mf and forwards which they did.
What fucked Armagh up was the lack of tactical knowledge shown by POR and the serious weakness in the teams mentality.
Mentality of players is down to the management, They stopped trying in the final 10 minutes of the game. Look at the change in management has done to Donegal and Derry for example. Armagh beat both of them last year, this year we get beaten by Derry after they had a change in management. Even POR admitted the goals killed Armagh they didnt have the mental strength to cope with 3 blows like that. A couple of years ago Armagh would go down all guns blazing now they just fade out and let the what they perceive as the inevitable.
Changes were made too late and when they were made they were the wrong decisions.
It was the worst roasting I ever seen Ciaran McKeever getting, and that has to be laid squarely at the managements door, as it was apparent to everyone that McKeever was being destroyed. However, judgement should be reserved on POR until Armagh's interest in this year's Championship ends. Being involved at the Quarter Finals stage would be a big achievement for Armagh, but the Quarters seem a long way off at the minute.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 20, 2011, 11:12:10 PM
The thing I'm struggling to fathom over the past few pages is why a consensus has been reached that Kildare have somehow got a weak squad, with limited resources compared to Armagh.
Armagh have 2-3 very good players, 2-3 very useful players, 5-6 county standard players, and are carrying the rest. Kildare have that, plus a little more. Only blinkererdom can convince you otherwise.
Armagh were sensational against Down in that every one of them apart from McDonnell played as well they can. But that's the exception for Armagh, not the norm, as the players just aren't good enough.
If McGeeney was silly enough to take the Armagh job next season he might improve them. But only from 8th-9th best team in Ireland to the 7th-8th best team in Ireland. That's their threshold; they can't go beyond it.
Without wanting to sound like a broken record I simply don't agree with that. There is as much if not more talent in that squad than 28-30 other squads in the country, the players records with other teams and and previous Armagh sides prove that. I think although I may be wrong that 14 of the 15 who started against Down had played in an All Ireland final at one level or other in either a different side or in a previous Armagh side. Added to that are a former player of the year and a former young player of the year. That said Armagh are for me barely a top 12 side at the minute, they are much weaker than the sum of the parts and for me the blame for that has to rest with the management.
Quote from: balladmaker on June 20, 2011, 11:59:11 PM
It was the worst roasting I ever seen Ciaran McKeever getting, and that has to be laid squarely at the managements door, as it was apparent to everyone that McKeever was being destroyed. However, judgement should be reserved on POR until Armagh's interest in this year's Championship ends. Being involved at the Quarter Finals stage would be a big achievement for Armagh, but the Quarters seem a long way off at the minute.
A team in division 1 who were able to comfortably beat last years all Ireland finalists should not see a quarter final as a big achievement it should be the very minimum expected for that team. Armagh should not only be getting to All ireland Quarter Finals they should be highly competitive in them, thats not an unrealistic ambition.
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 05:20:00 PM
For those who ever backed O'Rourke yesterday certainly showed yous up. Brennan totally showed him up on the line with his decisions.
How did Vincie Martin start. Hes slow useless and should be nowhere near the team and then getting him to mark Lynch. Is O'Rourke on a different planet? Lynch is a flying machine was always going to destroy him. Then he leaves him on him to he gets injured. Brennan switched Brian Og after 10 mins. Next thing yes he was right to try and play the same way against down but after 10 15 mins a blind man could see we were having serious problems in the full back line especially with eoin bradley. He had to be double marked i.e a sweeper which we played to beat them last year. A gud manager has to be able to switch the gameplan if its not working. I have seen Mickey Harte do it so many times if his full back line getting destroyed he changes it and will bring joe mcmahon or someone back in front of them. These games are won by small thing on the field and by decisions made on the line. Our problem is we have the weakest line probably in the country. Such a joke. Joe Brolly summed it up exactly "Paddy O'Rourke is just a bad manager."Why did our county board employ this tube and why do they continue to employ him!
Everything and I mean every resource and every gaa person in the county should be working from now on getting McGeeney into the Armagh job for next year!!!!!!
Did Joe Brolly really sya that???????!!!!!!
Firstly on Armagh – Armagh are in the top 10 or so teams in the country. Cork, Kerry, Dublin and Tyrone are the teams with real expectation on them but then Armagh, Down, Derry, Kildare, Donegal, Galway & Mayo are all on a second tier that on any given day could win a match against anyone, but would require a decent bit of luck to get all the way to an AI final (which we got last year). A quarter is a realistic target for Armagh, as it is for any of those teams. O'Rourke has overseen them maintain that status but has proven unable to lift them above it. He cannot seem to make them more than the sum of their parts. POR doesn't make Armagh worse than they would be under most managers but he doesn't make them better.
Secondly on Kildare – McGeeney had every bit as much talent at his disposal as Armagh had last year. They had probably the best midfielder in Ireland in Dermot Early and a scoring phenomenon in Doyle. There's your two exceptional players to match McDonnell and Clarke. Also what about Flynn and Lynch? Who he had then too. For by that the rest of the squad are a bit unsung but are all similar talent to most of those in the Armagh squad. Most importantly do you think Kildare have worse players than Donegal or Laois, who finished ahead of them? That's underperformance. McGeene's major improvement to Kildare is to make them work as hard as Armagh and thus has taken them close to the level of Armagh. There are no great tactical genius moves from the Kildare bench, it's all about effort.
Whitegoodman summed it up best – "POR may not be a good manager but he isnt the worst in the world and mcgeeny isn't the messiah!!!"
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 21, 2011, 08:32:21 AM
Firstly on Armagh – Armagh are in the top 10 or so teams in the country. Cork, Kerry, Dublin and Tyrone are the teams with real expectation on them but then Armagh, Down, Derry, Kildare, Donegal, Galway & Mayo are all on a second tier that on any given day could win a match against anyone, but would require a decent bit of luck to get all the way to an AI final (which we got last year). A quarter is a realistic target for Armagh, as it is for any of those teams. O'Rourke has overseen them maintain that status but has proven unable to lift them above it. He cannot seem to make them more than the sum of their parts. POR doesn't make Armagh worse than they would be under most managers but he doesn't make them better.
Secondly on Kildare – McGeeney had every bit as much talent at his disposal as Armagh had last year. They had probably the best midfielder in Ireland in Dermot Early and a scoring phenomenon in Doyle. There's your two exceptional players to match McDonnell and Clarke. Also what about Flynn and Lynch? Who he had then too. For by that the rest of the squad are a bit unsung but are all similar talent to most of those in the Armagh squad. Most importantly do you think Kildare have worse players than Donegal or Laois, who finished ahead of them? That's underperformance. McGeene's major improvement to Kildare is to make them work as hard as Armagh and thus has taken them close to the level of Armagh. There are no great tactical genius moves from the Kildare bench, it's all about effort.
Whitegoodman summed it up best – "POR may not be a good manager but he isnt the worst in the world and mcgeeny isn't the messiah!!!"
Would agree with the last line there, but Armagh need more than not the worst manager to get things back on track. There has been a lot of good talent coming through in the last number of years, particularly minor, where are they?
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 20, 2011, 11:01:41 PM
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 20, 2011, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: tevez on June 20, 2011, 05:20:00 PM
....Everything and I mean every resource and every gaa person in the county should be working from now on getting McGeeney into the Armagh job for next year!!!!!!
Tevez, I think there is a near mythological obsession with McGeeny. He has failed to get Kildare out of Division 2 and I honestly belive they will lose to Dublin next week. Where will that leave McGeeney as this great manager that you so desperately want? It will leave him in exactly the same place as Armagh are right now. Of course they might win but I honestly belive Dublin have too much for them. You have to remember that McGeeney has one excellent championship run behind him, but that came with two bad league campaigns. Also they rode their luck in the championship with an escape against Antrim. They could easily have been the nobody's of 2010.
Sometimes the grass is greener!!!!
I agree with you I don't think Geezer is the answer. He's allegedly on too much in Kildare. If he comes to Armagh it will only be when the pot runs dry in Kildare. Time for McAlinden, McGrane and McConville to ride to the rescue.
McAlinden had his day with the seniors, did a good job and took them as far as he could. Appointing him would be a backward step I think. Also the U21s havent won a game in 2 years under him.
Im suprised no one has mentioned Tony McEntee and Gareth O'Neill as possible successors to O'Rourke, they had an amazing first season in charge of crossmaglen. When they took over a lot of people thought they were in transition but they won the all-ireland, I dont know the two lads at all but surely they would be on the short list at least.
I think Paddy O'Rourkes days are numbered to be honest I get the impression the Armagh support are just waiting for the team to get beat and Paddy will be made to go, it was a strange appointment at the time and I dont think he will be there next season.
Armagh would seem to have more potential candidates out there than any other county. There are Armagh men in high level football jobs all over the country yet Armagh are managed by a Down man. Some of these would include,
Kieran McGeeney (Kildare) Aiden O'Rourke (Kildare), Grimley (Meath), Justin McNulty (Laois), McEntee (Cross) Cathal O'Rourke and Ger Reid (Queen's), Enda McNulty (Leinster Rugby), Paul McGrane (Ballyhegan) - (Are there more?), not to mention the many Armagh lads doing good jobs in lower profile positions in clubs.
Once again the manager is being hung out to dry. Admittedly he may not be the best tactical manager on the line but a hell of a lot of the responsibility must go down to the players too.
All this talk of the glory years is slightly misguided. Even with Armagh at their best 2002-2004 they didnt hammer teams. They played to their streths and ground out results. The difference with the current squad is firstly thaey dont have the same quality at the back. Bellew Mc Geeney and co wouldnt have allowed 3 goals to be scored in the manner in which they were. They had a stronger midfield and distributuon into the forward line was faster. Thirdly the forward unit was a hell of a lot more economical.
All in all the expectation of where Armagh are at is too high. Possibly artifically enhanced due to the defeat of Down. But to blame the Manager exclusively has to be questioned. Some of the players had checked out long before the final whistle.
Would agree with a lot of Wobbler says above.
Quote from: Bensars on June 21, 2011, 01:27:52 PM
Once again the manager is being hung out to dry. Admittedly he may not be the best tactical manager on the line but a hell of a lot of the responsibility must go down to the players too.
All this talk of the glory years is slightly misguided. Even with Armagh at their best 2002-2004 they didnt hammer teams. They played to their streths and ground out results. The difference with the current squad is firstly thaey dont have the same quality at the back. Bellew Mc Geeney and co wouldnt have allowed 3 goals to be scored in the manner in which they were. They had a stronger midfield and distributuon into the forward line was faster. Thirdly the forward unit was a hell of a lot more economical.
All in all the expectation of where Armagh are at is too high. Possibly artifically enhanced due to the defeat of Down. But to blame the Manager exclusively has to be questioned. Some of the players had checked out long before the final whistle.
Would agree with a lot of Wobbler says above.
What a ridicuolous statement. You wouldn't expect them to, most of the time they would be going through the championship through the provincials and Ulster for the last 10 years and Ulster was not exactly a walkover. Quarter final where provincial champions are introduce, well it is a free for all with the top 8 in the country.
When they went through the qualifiers in 2003 they hammered Limerick 4-10 to 0-11 in the QF and beat Waterford 2-21 to 0-8. Also beating Antrim and Dublin along the way. 2004 they beat Monaghan 2-19 to 0-10 and beat Donegal 3-15 to 1-11 in Ulster. 2005 seen Armagh beat Fermanagh 2-12 to 1-7, beat Donegal 3-11 to 1-10 in a replay and then beat Laois 2-17 to 1-11.
Thats 7 teams they hammered (and by hammered I would say by more that 7+ points). If Armagh lost by 7 points or more id consider it a hammering also. We have recieved three of these...Kerry 2006. Monaghan 2010. Derry 2011. Thats two hammerings in the space of 12 months. Hopefully he can turn things around but if he dosent, I wouldn't blame Armagh fans for wanting him out.
Quote from: ck on June 21, 2011, 12:49:12 PM
Armagh would seem to have more potential candidates out there than any other county. There are Armagh men in high level football jobs all over the country yet Armagh are managed by a Down man. Some of these would include,
Kieran McGeeney (Kildare) Aiden O'Rourke (Kildare), Grimley (Meath), Justin McNulty (Laois), McEntee (Cross) Cathal O'Rourke and Ger Reid (Queen's), Enda McNulty (Leinster Rugby), Paul McGrane (Ballyhegan) - (Are there more?), not to mention the many Armagh lads doing good jobs in lower profile positions in clubs.
First of all its ridiculous to blame POR for the defeat, wobbler is right, the players are just not there anymore. Armagh lost men, great leaders and it will take a while before some of the current squad develop into that, bit similiar to ourselves...
As for the comment above... The simple reason bar the last name mention there why they wouldnt be considered for the Armagh job...
£ Thats why ;-) they all love the above
Quote from: redandblackareback on June 21, 2011, 02:54:14 PM
Quote from: ck on June 21, 2011, 12:49:12 PM
Armagh would seem to have more potential candidates out there than any other county. There are Armagh men in high level football jobs all over the country yet Armagh are managed by a Down man. Some of these would include,
Kieran McGeeney (Kildare) Aiden O'Rourke (Kildare), Grimley (Meath), Justin McNulty (Laois), McEntee (Cross) Cathal O'Rourke and Ger Reid (Queen's), Enda McNulty (Leinster Rugby), Paul McGrane (Ballyhegan) - (Are there more?), not to mention the many Armagh lads doing good jobs in lower profile positions in clubs.
First of all its ridiculous to blame POR for the defeat, wobbler is right, the players are just not there anymore. Armagh lost men, great leaders and it will take a while before some of the current squad develop into that, bit similiar to ourselves...
As for the comment above... The simple reason bar the last name mention there why they wouldnt be considered for the Armagh job...
£
Thats why ;-) they all love the above
I would concede the money bit, but as for the rest you obviously know SFA about Armagh football and the players available.
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2011, 03:02:21 PM
Quote from: redandblackareback on June 21, 2011, 02:54:14 PM
Quote from: ck on June 21, 2011, 12:49:12 PM
Armagh would seem to have more potential candidates out there than any other county. There are Armagh men in high level football jobs all over the country yet Armagh are managed by a Down man. Some of these would include,
Kieran McGeeney (Kildare) Aiden O'Rourke (Kildare), Grimley (Meath), Justin McNulty (Laois), McEntee (Cross) Cathal O'Rourke and Ger Reid (Queen's), Enda McNulty (Leinster Rugby), Paul McGrane (Ballyhegan) - (Are there more?), not to mention the many Armagh lads doing good jobs in lower profile positions in clubs.
First of all its ridiculous to blame POR for the defeat, wobbler is right, the players are just not there anymore. Armagh lost men, great leaders and it will take a while before some of the current squad develop into that, bit similiar to ourselves...
As for the comment above... The simple reason bar the last name mention there why they wouldnt be considered for the Armagh job...
£
Thats why ;-) they all love the above
I would concede the money bit, but as for the rest you obviously know SFA about Armagh football and the players available.
Well apples to be fair, I probably wouldnt know as much as you obviously ::) but Im wise enough to realise there are no players with the same mental toughness and drive as mc nulty, bellew, mc geeney, mc grane to name a few... When you look at their replacements their poor men versions... Think its time for Armagh folk to swallow the reality pill and welcome back to being ordinary again dont start trying to blame POR... He was great when you s beat down, a tactical genius according to some clowns on here.
Quote from: redandblackareback on June 21, 2011, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on June 21, 2011, 03:02:21 PM
Quote from: redandblackareback on June 21, 2011, 02:54:14 PM
Quote from: ck on June 21, 2011, 12:49:12 PM
Armagh would seem to have more potential candidates out there than any other county. There are Armagh men in high level football jobs all over the country yet Armagh are managed by a Down man. Some of these would include,
Kieran McGeeney (Kildare) Aiden O'Rourke (Kildare), Grimley (Meath), Justin McNulty (Laois), McEntee (Cross) Cathal O'Rourke and Ger Reid (Queen's), Enda McNulty (Leinster Rugby), Paul McGrane (Ballyhegan) - (Are there more?), not to mention the many Armagh lads doing good jobs in lower profile positions in clubs.
First of all its ridiculous to blame POR for the defeat, wobbler is right, the players are just not there anymore. Armagh lost men, great leaders and it will take a while before some of the current squad develop into that, bit similiar to ourselves...
As for the comment above... The simple reason bar the last name mention there why they wouldnt be considered for the Armagh job...
£
Thats why ;-) they all love the above
I would concede the money bit, but as for the rest you obviously know SFA about Armagh football and the players available.
Well apples to be fair, I probably wouldnt know as much as you obviously ::) but Im wise enough to realise there are no players with the same mental toughness and drive as mc nulty, bellew, mc geeney, mc grane to name a few... When you look at their replacements their poor men versions... Think its time for Armagh folk to swallow the reality pill and welcome back to being ordinary again dont start trying to blame POR... He was great when you s beat down, a tactical genius according to some clowns on here.
Read my posts on POR. I said that beating Derry (or not) would show where he is at. There are enough good players in Armagh. Sunday's game was lost on the line. Iwas never a fan given his record with Down but was prepared to give him a chance. I know some Armagh fans lost the run of themselves when we beat Down but not all of us. We played good enough football at times on Sunday and Stevies second miss turned the game irrevocably. But look at the decisions made by the management. Most peopl agree that he can't analyse on the spot and make changes. Well if he can't he should get some one in who can assist.
Ah we have to put up with some clowns on here - mostly down men I notice.
Redandblack - you might be good enough to post up quotes from armagh peiple who were happy with por after the down game and particularly referred to him as a tactical genius? Thought not
Por rightly got kudos for getting the defensive match ups right against down and his naïve policy of man to man marking happened to suit against his native county but was always destined to be found out in the long run. He had no alternative when this happened other than to shuffle the deck chairs. Certainly he wasn't capable of effecting change when it was badly needed in the first half.
It seems to be only down men who feel armagh don't have the players and one who doesn't know what to do with the players we have.
But the 1998-2006 team learnt the hard way too. Remember in their formative years they got hockeyed by Derry on a number of occasions and this give them a steely resolve to climb to the summit. By 2002 we had McGeeney, McGrane, McConville, Marsden, the McNultys who may not have had any more talent than some of our more prominent players now but they had great drive and leadership qualities.
We have to see whether the Toners, Vernons, Dyas's, Clarke's etc have this same drive and determination to overcome disappointments like Sunday and turn them into positives.
For me McKeever and McDonnell are the only players on our current panel that currently have the leadership qualities that our previous team had in spadeloads. Hopefully this will come over the next few years, we'll see. Talent is not enough on its own, we need that bit of nous that our great team had.
POR is not faultless but he has tried to take Armagh away from the negative dirge that we were serving up from 2007 to 2009. I remember posting on here during this time saying that I wouldn't mind getting beat if we were at least trying to play football. On Sunday we were beaten trying to play football. POR has taken us to the other extreme with some naive tactics but no matter how disappointed I was after Sunday I still felt better than I did coming out of Clones in 2009 after the Monaghan defeat and Croker after the QF in 2008.
Why are down fans having a go at Armagh fans for wanting him out when they could wait to get rid of him either?
Armagh are not as bad as suggested on Sunday. They were not as bad as they were against Monaghan either. Both games were down to very poor tactical changes so stop trying to defend the management. Players should also take the blame but the defeat was primarily down to the management, not just POR the whole management.
Stop saying the POR is the man for Armagh when he clearly isn't, unless we get a good run in the qualifiers the majority of fans will want him out and there is a good chance he will be gone. By all means see what POR and co can do by the end of the year and untill then lets get behind the team.
If management was to change personally I would not mind having either McEntee or McShane as manager next year, both make tactical changes when they are needed and are not afraid to make subs when things are not working out. In the Crossmaglen games this year McEntee made changes in the first half and they proved to be good decisions.
Quote from: mackers on June 21, 2011, 03:58:19 PM
But the 1998-2006 team learnt the hard way too. Remember in their formative years they got hockeyed by Derry on a number of occasions and this give them a steely resolve to climb to the summit. By 2002 we had McGeeney, McGrane, McConville, Marsden, the McNultys who may not have had any more talent than some of our more prominent players now but they had great drive and leadership qualities.
We have to see whether the Toners, Vernons, Dyas's, Clarke's etc have this same drive and determination to overcome disappointments like Sunday and turn them into positives.
For me McKeever and McDonnell are the only players on our current panel that currently have the leadership qualities that our previous team had in spadeloads. Hopefully this will come over the next few years, we'll see. Talent is not enough on its own, we need that bit of nous that our great team had.
POR is not faultless but he has tried to take Armagh away from the negative dirge that we were serving up from 2007 to 2009. I remember posting on here during this time saying that I wouldn't mind getting beat if we were at least trying to play football. On Sunday we were beaten trying to play football. POR has taken us to the other extreme with some naive tactics but no matter how disappointed I was after Sunday I still felt better than I did coming out of Clones in 2009 after the Monaghan defeat and Croker after the QF in 2008.
A lot of what you say is true and I certainly think we showed on Sunday that we can play a bit. We were slow to react on the line, but also Stevies decisions to go for goal, particularly in the second half had a bearing on the result. But POR is still being faithful to a couple of players who are too inconsistent.
All is not lost, though POR has certainly gone down in my opinion, have defended him in the past though anything less than a QF this year and he'll have to go IMO.
Nothing I can say other than Derry tore us a new one, the management made little attempt to rectify the problems when one or two simple changes could have made a huge difference. I hope we get a favourable draw in the qualifiers to boost confidence more than anything, also to try a few different players and maybe a bit of a shake up.
P.S. To all the Down 'experts': You's have been the benchmark for mediocrity for the last ten years and don't ever forgot that, last year's AI final appearance means nothing now so stop coming on here trying to highlight (and exaggerate) Armagh's inadequacies; obviously still hurting from that defeat ::)
I hope it pisses rain in Ennis on Sat! ;)
Mc Shane has no experience at senior level, managing minors is entirely different to managing senior players, Give POR a break, he simply has a good group of players available. There is very little strength in depth... granted he is slow to see or make changes. I'd be happy with a good run in the qualifiers... all depends on who we get, i can see a down rematch on the horizon
The thing that most worries about Armagh football this year is that POR has done enough to hold on to his job for next year. He survived in Div 1 and beat Down. Add to that, a number of people highly involved in his appointment and his continuation in the job hold high positions in the County Board now.
POR does deserve some credit for certain things but the things he deserves credit for are far outweighed by the things he should be criticised for. For that reason I would like to see someone else in charge next year however I'd be shocked if I do. The fact POR is from Down is irrelevant for me.
Quote from: BerfArmagh on June 21, 2011, 05:44:56 PM
Mc Shane has no experience at senior level, managing minors is entirely different to managing senior players,
He managed Granemore seniors before taking the minor job.
You armagh men are some craic , your one and only all Ireland was an example that hard work and being lucky to get a golden generation gives most counties hope that some day they to might win 1 maybe 2, but what gives you the devine right that you all seem to have of Armagh winning another , never mind spending time blaming everything on POR . All you need is a SSS .
Some one call the Irish news and book Jamie Clarke a Skinner Skills Session !! Job done
Quote from: John o connor on June 21, 2011, 07:55:20 PM
You armagh men are some craic , your one and only all Ireland was an example that hard work and being lucky to get a golden generation gives most counties hope that some day they to might win 1 maybe 2, but what gives you the devine right that you all seem to have of Armagh winning another , never mind spending time blaming everything on POR . All you need is a SSS .
Some one call the Irish news and book Jamie Clarke a Skinner Skills Session !! Job done
would hardly call it lucky. Armagh where knocking on the door for a few years from the late 90's early 00's. Another AI is a long way awayat this stage, dont think any armagh supporter thinks we have a devine right to win an ai, though possible ones could/should have followed between 03-06
McGeeney isn't flawless - Kildare have been beat in Leinster the past few years by Louth and Wicklow - but you get the feeling he can generally get that little bit more out of a team and he's still learning his trade. IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources as Armagh, if we judge this purely in terms of underage and club success in both counties over the past 7 or 8 years. Armagh supporters do have a right to expect a bit from players who showed a lot of potential in their earlier years.
Quote from: mackers on June 21, 2011, 06:43:15 PM
Quote from: BerfArmagh on June 21, 2011, 05:44:56 PM
Mc Shane has no experience at senior level, managing minors is entirely different to managing senior players,
He managed Granemore seniors before taking the minor job.
Are you serious, you are comparing managing Granemore with managing a senior inter county team ???
Time to bring back the messiah.....
(http://www.gaelgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/john-morrison.jpg)
Quote from: BerfArmagh on June 22, 2011, 09:16:13 AM
Quote from: mackers on June 21, 2011, 06:43:15 PM
Quote from: BerfArmagh on June 21, 2011, 05:44:56 PM
Mc Shane has no experience at senior level, managing minors is entirely different to managing senior players,
He managed Granemore seniors before taking the minor job.
Are you serious, you are comparing managing Granemore with managing a senior inter county team ???
No I'm not......but you said that he had no experience in managing senior footballers and managing minors was different. If you had said that he had no experience of managing senior inter county footballers I'd have agreed with you.......
Did Mickey Harte not follow a successful stint with Tyrone Minors by taking on the Seniors?
Mickey Harte went from Minors to U-21s to seniors, enjoying success throughout-but Mickey was able to work with good footballers, intelligent, more than one dimensional footballers. Are Armagh programmed to do one thing and unable to change their course of thought to adapt to a situation? Kerry's/Tyrone's ability to spot a danger, adapt, nulify, obiliterate and carry on has resulted in them being a very successful team since the turn of the Millenium. Whereas Armagh, the sob story of how they could of/should of/would of continues.
On a positive note-its good to see Derry back in a decider. I hope Tyrone can upset the odds to set up a Tyrone Derry Ulster Final. Great day's craic.
Quote from: Final Whistle on June 22, 2011, 10:56:28 AM
Mickey Harte went from Minors to U-21s to seniors, enjoying success throughout-but Mickey was able to work with good footballers, intelligent, more than one dimensional footballers. Are Armagh programmed to do one thing and unable to change their course of thought to adapt to a situation? Kerry's/Tyrone's ability to spot a danger, adapt, nulify, obiliterate and carry on has resulted in them being a very successful team since the turn of the Millenium. Whereas Armagh, the sob story of how they could of/should of/would of continues.
On a positive note-its good to see Derry back in a decider.
Harte also managed eireagle ciaran (excuse the spelling) seniors to an ulster club in 2002. including a few fantastic games against cross on the way to the title. Look i dont like the current management as most ppl dont. However lets get behind them and the team for the qualifiers. A few handy draws and who knows where we could end up.
Quote from: Armamike on June 21, 2011, 10:10:30 PM
McGeeney isn't flawless - Kildare have been beat in Leinster the past few years by Louth and Wicklow - but you get the feeling he can generally get that little bit more out of a team and he's still learning his trade. IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources as Armagh, if we judge this purely in terms of underage and club success in both counties over the past 7 or 8 years. Armagh supporters do have a right to expect a bit from players who showed a lot of potential in their earlier years.
Firstly you can not judge the playing quality of the county senior sides based on underage and club success. You can only judge it on the quality of the county players themselves. So what justifies the sentiment that "IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources"?
You can not judge it on this championship as this championship isn't over and Kildare still have to play Dublin. But On last year's campaign, why do you think Armagh have better playing resources? You have Jamie Clarke and McDonnell who are true quality. McKeever and Donaghy are quality defenders and you could add Mallon for marking ability and Kernan for attacking potency (but he's not the best defender as most Armagh people recognise). Last year McGeeney had probably the best midfielder in Ireland - Earley, The best scorer - Doyle, an all star corner back Peter Kelly, plus you can add Lynch and Flynn to that.
Apart from those key players in either side Why do you think Dyas, Martin, Toner, Vernon, T Kernan, BJ Padden or O'Rourke are any more talented than the likes of McGrillen, Bolton, Morgan O'Flaherty, Flanagan, Kavanagah, Callaghan or Eoghan O'Flaherty? Is it just because you are not familiar with their names or is it that you actually have seen them play and think their talent is less? Because the two sets of players are very similar in talent, all are good county standard players without being spectacular.
The point is not to slag you off for your opinion, so please do not take offence, but merely to back up that McGeeney has failed to get a group of players promoted who contain quite a lot of talent, especially their all-stars Earley, Doyle and Kelly. They have had bad defeats in Leinster and got a bit of luck (like ourselves) to get as far as they did (Antrim should have put them out). POR is not a good manager in my opinion but McGeeney has yet to prove he is much better. At least with POR you were promoted and stayed up. McGeeny couldn't get Kildare near a promotion play-off.
I see it like this. In the past two ulster champoionship campaigns under POR we have had 2 good wins, giving a good platform to build from. However, we have failed to do so. This suggests to me that the team is incapable of putting 2 good championship performances together. The players ave to take some blame but as do, and more so, the management team.
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 22, 2011, 01:05:16 PM
Quote from: Armamike on June 21, 2011, 10:10:30 PM
McGeeney isn't flawless - Kildare have been beat in Leinster the past few years by Louth and Wicklow - but you get the feeling he can generally get that little bit more out of a team and he's still learning his trade. IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources as Armagh, if we judge this purely in terms of underage and club success in both counties over the past 7 or 8 years. Armagh supporters do have a right to expect a bit from players who showed a lot of potential in their earlier years.
Firstly you can not judge the playing quality of the county senior sides based on underage and club success. You can only judge it on the quality of the county players themselves. So what justifies the sentiment that "IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources"?
You can not judge it on this championship as this championship isn't over and Kildare still have to play Dublin. But On last year's campaign, why do you think Armagh have better playing resources? You have Jamie Clarke and McDonnell who are true quality. McKeever and Donaghy are quality defenders and you could add Mallon for marking ability and Kernan for attacking potency (but he's not the best defender as most Armagh people recognise). Last year McGeeney had probably the best midfielder in Ireland - Earley, The best scorer - Doyle, an all star corner back Peter Kelly, plus you can add Lynch and Flynn to that.
Apart from those key players in either side Why do you think Dyas, Martin, Toner, Vernon, T Kernan, BJ Padden or O'Rourke are any more talented than the likes of McGrillen, Bolton, Morgan O'Flaherty, Flanagan, Kavanagah, Callaghan or Eoghan O'Flaherty? Is it just because you are not familiar with their names or is it that you actually have seen them play and think their talent is less? Because the two sets of players are very similar in talent, all are good county standard players without being spectacular.
The point is not to slag you off for your opinion, so please do not take offence, but merely to back up that McGeeney has failed to get a group of players promoted who contain quite a lot of talent, especially their all-stars Earley, Doyle and Kelly. They have had bad defeats in Leinster and got a bit of luck (like ourselves) to get as far as they did (Antrim should have put them out). POR is not a good manager in my opinion but McGeeney has yet to prove he is much better. At least with POR you were promoted and stayed up. McGeeny couldn't get Kildare near a promotion play-off.
FFS drop the league shite will you. Nobody cares about the league and obviously is not a good indicator of how good teams are!
London alomost beat Mayo.
Armagh beat Down.
Derry beat Armagh.
I could go on. Its absolute nonsense talk. Fact is, McGeeney has brought Kildare hell of a lot further than what POR has managed to do with Armagh. McGeeney might have suffered shock defeats to Wicklow and Louth but POR has suffered two hammerings by Derry and Monaghan. The more I hear Down fans going on about him staying and it not being his fault, the more I want him to leave!!
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 22, 2011, 01:05:16 PM
Quote from: Armamike on June 21, 2011, 10:10:30 PM
McGeeney isn't flawless - Kildare have been beat in Leinster the past few years by Louth and Wicklow - but you get the feeling he can generally get that little bit more out of a team and he's still learning his trade. IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources as Armagh, if we judge this purely in terms of underage and club success in both counties over the past 7 or 8 years. Armagh supporters do have a right to expect a bit from players who showed a lot of potential in their earlier years.
Firstly you can not judge the playing quality of the county senior sides based on underage and club success. You can only judge it on the quality of the county players themselves. So what justifies the sentiment that "IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources"?
You can not judge it on this championship as this championship isn't over and Kildare still have to play Dublin. But On last year's campaign, why do you think Armagh have better playing resources? You have Jamie Clarke and McDonnell who are true quality. McKeever and Donaghy are quality defenders and you could add Mallon for marking ability and Kernan for attacking potency (but he's not the best defender as most Armagh people recognise). Last year McGeeney had probably the best midfielder in Ireland - Earley, The best scorer - Doyle, an all star corner back Peter Kelly, plus you can add Lynch and Flynn to that.
Apart from those key players in either side Why do you think Dyas, Martin, Toner, Vernon, T Kernan, BJ Padden or O'Rourke are any more talented than the likes of McGrillen, Bolton, Morgan O'Flaherty, Flanagan, Kavanagah, Callaghan or Eoghan O'Flaherty? Is it just because you are not familiar with their names or is it that you actually have seen them play and think their talent is less? Because the two sets of players are very similar in talent, all are good county standard players without being spectacular.
The point is not to slag you off for your opinion, so please do not take offence, but merely to back up that McGeeney has failed to get a group of players promoted who contain quite a lot of talent, especially their all-stars Earley, Doyle and Kelly. They have had bad defeats in Leinster and got a bit of luck (like ourselves) to get as far as they did (Antrim should have put them out). POR is not a good manager in my opinion but McGeeney has yet to prove he is much better. At least with POR you were promoted and stayed up. McGeeny couldn't get Kildare near a promotion play-off.
No offence taken in the slightest Paul, we're all entitled to our opinions. Kildare haven't been within a whiff of challenging for Leinster in years. They've had little or no underage success to my knowledge (apart from a decent u21 team a couple of years back) and nothing to note at club level. So where has all this talent been? They've been pretty good at hiding their light under a bushel these past few years. A lot of the Armagh players have been part of successful underage or club teams, winning medals and championships and the odd medal or two (Ulster and NFL) at senior. Therefore, they must have had something to offer. IMO McGeeney has got players like Kavanagh to glean the absolute max from their talent and that's why i'd say he's got the makings of a decent manager. I know that underage success and club success don't guarantee anything at senior county level but you need some pedigree or lineage otherwise we'd not be flabbergasted at the thought of Carlow winning Leinster or Waterford in Munster.
A lot of sweeping generalisations there:
Quote from: Armamike on June 22, 2011, 11:16:51 PM
Kildare haven't been within a whiff of challenging for Leinster in years.
Not strictly true. While we have underperformed at provincial level ever since Dwyer left in 2002, we played in a cracking Leinster Final in 2009 that we really should have won.
Quote from: Armamike on June 22, 2011, 11:16:51 PM
They've had little or no underage success to my knowledge (apart from a decent u21 team a couple of years back)
Kildare underage football was in the dark ages during the 90s - through no fault of Dwyer's I might add; the one time he was involved with an underage team he won a Leinster title. The structures have improved hugely in the years since then and we have produced several good u21 teams since 2003. The quality of our minor teams has also improved under Brian Murphy's management. In 2009 the Kildare minors arguably gave your All-Ireland winning Armagh minor team their toughest test up in Cavan. Kildare were bang there until Tommy Moolick scored an unfortunate own goal. The Kildare minor team last year was the best I've seen in twenty years and I personally think they may have left an All-Ireland behind them. They had a four game saga with Dublin (beating them twice but we won't go there!) but they were blighted by injuries and emotionally drained afterwards against Longford. They still should have won but Longford got two freak goals late on and they had no time to come back. I don't think the minor team this year is as good but they seem to be moving quite well so far. The schools scene in the county is also hugely improved. Athy, Maynooth, Clane, Kilcullen and Edenderry (backboned by west Kildare lads) have all had success in recent years along with the staple nursery of Patricians in Newbridge.
You may say that's all well and good, but we haven't really won much. However, the players are now coming through from these teams. This year Kildare have blooded Fionn Dowling, Tommy Moolick, Seán Hurley and Pádraig Fogarty (all straight from minor) and Conor Brophy who won a Sigerson All-Star for NUIM. Armagh have probably had more success in terms of silverware at underage but are those lads coming through or being given the opportunity? Are the likes of McVerry, Tasker and Carragher from their minor team of a few years ago involved with the seniors?
Quote from: Armamike on June 22, 2011, 11:16:51 PM
nothing to note at club level.
I don't know how success at club level can be used as a barometer for the prospects of the inter-county seniors? Bar Moorefield in 2008 and a few decent Sarsfields teams under the late Dermot Earley, few Kildare clubs have done much nationally recently. However, the county championship is fiercely competitive and the dominance of the two Newbridge clubs is not as pronounced as it was in times gone by. Clubs like St Laurences and Celbridge have emerged and there are now strong teams in every part of the county. I think the competitiveness of the county championship can only be good for the county team.
Without denying the quality of various Crossmaglen teams over the years, does their utter dominance not suggest a weakness in the overall quality of club football in Armagh? As an outsider I wouldn't know how strong or otherwise the likes of Dromintee and Mullaghbawn are. Would you say Crossmaglen's success has been beneficial for the Armagh inter-county team or would they be better served if there were a number of clubs competing at a similar level?
Quote from: Armamike on June 22, 2011, 11:16:51 PM
IMO McGeeney has got players like Kavanagh to glean the absolute max from their talent and that's why i'd say he's got the makings of a decent manager. I know that underage success and club success don't guarantee anything at senior county level but you need some pedigree or lineage otherwise we'd not be flabbergasted at the thought of Carlow winning Leinster or Waterford in Munster.
You couldn't have picked a better example than Kavanagh. The lad was a hugely talented and successful underage player. Along with Michael Meehan, he was the standout player in the Jarlath's of Tuam team in the early part of the last decade and he played in two Leinster u21 finals winning one in 2004. He was one of the most skilfull lads I'd ever seen play underage for Kildare. Only last year he inspired Ballymore Eustace to a Leinster intermediate title. Now he has undoubtedly benefitted from McGeeney's tutelage but he has ample "pedigree and lineage" as do the likes of White, O'Flaherty and Smith.
My knowledge of Armagh football is probably as scant as your lads knowledge of Kildare. However, on the evidence of the championship in recent years there's not too many Armagh players that I'd take over their Kildare counterparts but naturally I'm biased. The whole debate here is rather pointless anyway because McGeeney agreed to another three year term as Kildare manager back in September. Unless they suffer an absolute aberration in the coming weeks, I'd be fairly certain he'll be patrolling the touchline for Kildare again next year. He has invested plenty of time and energy since 2008 in Kildare and he doesn't strike me as the type of man that could leave a job half done. Kildare should on paper be stronger next year with two All-Stars in Dermot Earley and Peter Kelly set to return from injury. McGeeney is also based in Dublin so Kildare is convenient for him both from a work and family point of view. I've no doubt that he'll take over the Armagh team at some point in the future but I understand there is still some bitterness from the time that Paul Grimley was overlooked as Kernan's replacement.
An excellent post by Donnelly's Hollow, Showing that just because you are not familiar with another team's players or club sides that you can't presume that they are inferior to your own. In Leinster it has been well accepted for years that Kildare were under performing given the amount of talent they had at their disposal. Donnelly's Hollow points out that the teams have pretty much equal reserves to draw on. In addition he shows that it is of no benefit pointing to successful under-age sides if those players don't come through.
Now here is the big one what exact difference has McGeeny made? See I would argue that what he has done above all else is instil a work ethic in Kildare, the same one that Armagh already have. The effect is that he has taken a similarly talented group of players as Armaghs, who were under-achieving, and made them work as hard as Armagh. As DH has pointed out, Kildare always had the talent but McGeeny has made them work harder to deliver it.
That is fine with a team that is under-performing through lack of effort but what happens if he goes to Armagh and he brings the one big trick that they already have? One thing that can not be levelled at Armagh is that the players are not dedicated. Armagh are up there with the top 4-5 most dedicated county teams in the country. How can he improve the work ethic of a team that already has as good a work ethic as possible?
It's arrogant to say that he would achieve more with Armagh because Armagh has better players. POR has had one championship where his team got put out by Dublin (a very tough draw), Kildare didn't have to play anyone of Dublin's class, so it's not comparable. The only comparable thing is the league. POR got Armagh up and retained that status. Kildare have failed 2 years in a row to get promotion. Before we talk about who has taken who further lets see how this campaign goes and what opposition the two counties face, lets see how far Derry go before condemning Armagh. Lets see how the Leinster semi-final goes on Sunday.
As I said I do not think POR is a good manager but I am just pointing out that Mcgeeney may be far from the perfect replacement.
Anyway the whole thing is a moot point. McGeeney isn't going to leave Kildare any time soon and I'm a Down man so it shouldn't really concern me. Also I admire the work done by McGeeney at Kildare and think that it sounds like I am putting him down, which I wouldn't mean to do. I just wanted to warn against instilling too much faith in his ability to transform another team.
But at any rate, I think I've said my piece and don't want to start an argument, or offend anyone. We are all entitled to our opinion and to agree/disagree with other's. Anyway that's mine but it wasn't intended to insult McGeeney, Kildare, Armagh or any Armagh poster.
Good luck to McGeeney at Kildare. I was really impressed with the Kildare supporters last year and have them as some of the nicest in the land in my opinion. And incidentally for all my slagging, Armagh ones aren't too bad either, far from the worst supporters in Ulster let alone Ireland.
A very good post by Donnelly's Hollow.
If there is a manager (bad or good) then people should look at their assistant manager for evidence as to why this is the case. POR has a poor backroom team by all accounts (Rugby weightlifter taking training etc).
Compare that to the "rising" teams. People in Donegal regard Rory Gallagher as the real secret (not McGuinness) and without doubt Aidan O'Rourke is the real deal under McGeeney.
Aidan O'Rourke for Armagh manager anyone?
Why is it that the second man in charge is often seen as the brains of the set up?! A bit like the younger brother coming through is better again than the established older sibling.
Good post Donnelly. I bow to your superior knowledge of your county men.
Quote from: ck on June 23, 2011, 01:01:07 PM
If there is a manager (bad or good) then people should look at their assistant manager for evidence as to why this is the case. POR has a poor backroom team by all accounts (Rugby weightlifter taking training etc).
Compare that to the "rising" teams. People in Donegal regard Rory Gallagher as the real secret (not McGuinness) and without doubt Aidan O'Rourke is the real deal under McGeeney.
Aidan O'Rourke for Armagh manager anyone?
Thats unfair. The manager puts the team together he takes the plaudits and the stick. A good manager recognises his own failings and brings in the requsite help. POR seems incapable of analysing games in real time and taking remedial action. If he brought someone in to help with this he might actually get some where. He has brought positives to the setup.
Jesus lads we have hit a new low. Who would ever have thought that people would look to Kildare as some kind of panacea to our football ills. They have yet to win a Leinster title under McGeeney, they are a division two outfit. They failed to beat an average Down team last year and Wexford and Fermanagh also reached all Ireland semi finals. Would you look to Fermanagh or Wexford with all respect, to sort your football woes?
As for under age, what exactly have they ever won? Galway, Roscommon, Tyrone,Armagh, Mayo Cork etc would eat them at that level. Kildare are ok when they can take in a few outsiders like the way O Dwyer did with lads from Tipp, Cork, Kerry and Meath on the team. Lift your sights please people from Armagh, home of the current club champs. What the f***k have Kildare ever done except have a big huddle around their new manager.
Let the fun commence!!
Cant wait
Sorry but POR is a tool. A blind man could do a better job than him. POR is the sort of man who would bring a blunt knife to a gun fight...that how is tactical mind works.
Personally I beleive POR has Armagh punching well above their weight without him they'd be in Div 3 or 4. Can't see waht all the fuss is about. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
Quote from: under the bar on July 09, 2011, 10:18:22 PM
Personally I beleive POR has Armagh punching well above their weight without him they'd be in Div 3 or 4. Can't see waht all the fuss is about. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
Christ you must be smoking some shit!!! After the horlicks of selections/substitutions tonight!!
Quote from: under the bar on July 09, 2011, 10:18:22 PM
Personally I beleive POR has Armagh punching well above their weight without him they'd be in Div 3 or 4. Can't see waht all the fuss is about. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
the words "up" and wind", in no particular order, come to mind here :D
Punching well below their weight is probably more like it.
On a related point I will say that the one thing POR has brought to Armagh is more entertaining football. The Down Derry and now Wicklow games have been among the best games I as an Armagh supporter have seen in about five years. If he could only manage to get a winning formula too! :'(
What'll ye all do if Ourma wins in Omagh next week?
Quote from: passedit on July 16, 2011, 08:48:09 PM
What'll ye all do if Ourma wins in Omagh next week?
Praise the players :)
For all his faults and failings if Armagh beat Tyrone and Down in the 1 season and have stayed in Div1 it will represent a decent season.
We are miles off the top 2 and a fair bit off the next level (Dublin, Kildare, maybe Tyrone) but the players seem to be behind POR and at least there is more emphasis on attacking football.
If we beat Tyrone POR will deserve another crack at it next year.
Quote from: Orangemac on July 17, 2011, 09:40:41 AM
For all his faults and failings if Armagh beat Tyrone and Down in the 1 season and have stayed in Div1 it will represent a decent season.
We are miles off the top 2 and a fair bit off the next level (Dublin, Kildare, maybe Tyrone) but the players seem to be behind POR and at least there is more emphasis on attacking football.
If we beat Tyrone POR will deserve another crack at it next year.
And pray God tell me what gives you that notion. While the support of the players was his major (only) strength during his time in charge of the Mourne, I think its a stretch to suggest that the players are personally loyal to Paddy O'Rourke and are "behind" him more than they would be any other manager.
Without wanting to spread rumours but was there not a major falling out between the players over POR's management after the Derry match? I would think he has the full support of a number of players but not all of them.
Regardless I fully expect POR to be in charge next year. Those who sat on the panel to appoint him now hold more sway in the CB than they did two years ago.
All that said I just don't rate POR, he has a strong group of players but just doesn't seem able to get them to play to their strengths or implement a consistent gameplan.
Quote from: David McKeown on July 17, 2011, 02:25:15 PM
Without wanting to spread rumours but was there not a major falling out between the players over POR's management after the Derry match? I would think he has the full support of a number of players but not all of them.
Regardless I fully expect POR to be in charge next year. Those who sat on the panel to appoint him now hold more sway in the CB than they did two years ago.
All that said I just don't rate POR, he has a strong group of players but just doesn't seem able to get them to play to their strengths or implement a consistent gameplan.
I don't rate him either especially in terms of making changes during a game but a win over Tyrone would mean there would be no overwhelming clamour to get rid of him this year.
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 17, 2011, 11:15:48 PM
Interesting that on BBC today that McHugh put up a defence of POR saying he was a good manager. It was a cute move by McHugh to put Jarlath on the spot but he managed to evade giving any endorsement of POR as a manager. O'Callaghan missed the opportunity to put pin Jarlath down on his true opinion of the management and any difficulties with the players which he would be well aware about.
Can you elaborate?
We've sent him there to bring you boys down from the inside! ;)
Seriously though, really surprised that the ACB brought him in. Surely his inept performance as our bainisteoir was enough of a hint!
Quote from: Naomh Pol CLG on July 18, 2011, 12:11:29 AM
We've sent him there to bring you boys down from the inside! ;)
Seriously though, really surprised that the ACB brought him in. Surely his inept performance as our bainisteoir was enough of a hint!
Absence of any takers inside after the antics of the CB left him as the only credible choice. As some said he has us playing good football at times but suffers from inertia when changes are needed and too easily influenced by those around him. Watching the reaction of the team at the end of normal time in the drawn game with Wicklow I don't think this current management team has the full support of all the players. This is not necessarily all down to POR.
In fairness to POR, I have attended all the Armagh games this year, & I must say for various reasons they have been highly entertaining. I appreciate that tactically he is very naive & probably is'nt getting the max out of the resources available to him, but I am happy enough, the play is attacking and at times quite creative. If we get over Tyrone, anything is possible...
oisin says hes not ready yet.. questioned by o'callaghan post match oisin mc conville said hes interested but doesnt think hes ready yet for the armagh job
aidan o rourke?
Micko for Armagh
Tony Mac
We can start to discuss this issue again now, any speculation during the season was pointless and irritating.
What do people reckon as to the likelihood of O'Rourke doing the decent thing and resigning? I suspect he won't so that means there will have to be a groundswell of opinion against him amongst officialdom.
Time for the clubs to stand up and be counted.
A lot of criticism of O'Rourke in the last two years has been over the top and of the bar stool variety. Unfortunately, this has lead to the drowning out and easy dismissal of merited criticisms. But these do exist.
As far as I'm concerned there are two major issues that O'Rourke has floundered on.
1. Despite having two full seasons to develop a system of play that maximizes the resources available, he is no further on in this task than the day he took over. Even the desperate chopping and changing of styles throughout this year's league failed to produce anything worth talking about. This absence of a structure that everyone bought into and could fall back on when things got tough, meant that we suffered some of the worst Championship collapses in decades.
2. There has been so little development in the last two seasons that it's hardly worth talking about. We're supposed to be a team 'in transition' with decent underage graduates to bring through. But we're not really doing any transitioning. The majority of the team has remained the same throughout the last two seasons. We've a big group of lads in their mid to late twenties stagnating in mediocrity. This stagnation alone should be reason enough for a change. The last two seasons have just been a waste of time.
Well first thing is POR must go! Total shambles of a management team!
Now to think about who to bring in.
I would love Geezer, I think the boys would do anything for him and he'd really take this team places, but I realise it may not happen but I feel a huge effort should be made to get him in after this years championship ends. If not possible there are a number of possibilites who could go in together or on there own.
Paul Grimley, Aidan O'Rourke, Tony McEntee would be the ones who I would be most enthusiastic about and I feel either one or a combination of two of them would do a very good job.
After this there are people like Peter Rafferty who could do a good job.
Quote from: tevez on July 24, 2011, 07:01:34 PM
Well first thing is POR must go! Total shambles of a management team!
Now to think about who to bring in.
I would love Geezer, I think the boys would do anything for him and he'd really take this team places, but I realise it may not happen but I feel a huge effort should be made to get him in after this years championship ends. If not possible there are a number of possibilites who could go in together or on there own.
Paul Grimley, Aidan O'Rourke, Tony McEntee would be the ones who I would be most enthusiastic about and I feel either one or a combination of two of them would do a very good job.
After this there are people like Peter Rafferty who could do a good job.
It is time for POR to exit the stage alright but given the ineptitude of the county board is this likely. Will they ever swallow their pride and appoint Grimley ? I cant see anything more than another year wasted ahead.
Armagh have more managers out there than any other county. McGeeney is the obvious choice but as even the dogs on the street know that he is on crazy money on Kildare! The man I would favour for the job would be McGeeneys assistant manager at Kildare, Aiden O'Rourke. Word has it that he is the main man behind the scenes.
One thing for sure is that POR is a goner. Should never have been appointed. Has mad zero progress.
Quote from: ck on July 24, 2011, 09:33:50 PM
Armagh have more managers out there than any other county. McGeeney is the obvious choice but as even the dogs on the street know that he is on crazy money on Kildare! The man I would favour for the job would be McGeeneys assistant manager at Kildare, Aiden O'Rourke. Word has it that he is the main man behind the scenes.
One thing for sure is that POR is a goner. Should never have been appointed. Has mad zero progress.
:D :D :D
That's always the way, isn't it?!
Yas have no chance of the man quitting, he will never do it imo.
I have a feeling ur county board might give him another year as much as yas dont want to hear it. The goals for this year may have been to stay in Div 1 and beat down as underwhelming as that may seem. Not trying to stir it with yas but cant see him getting the P45 just yet!!
POR on Sunday Game earlier saying he wants to stay but it's up to the county board.
just watched paddy on tv after the match he is not quitting unless the county board ask him to. >:( this shows hes doesnt give a shite about armagh football otherwise he'd quit. also the rugby fittness guy has to go our players are too slow, fast forwards are simply running around them. major surgery is needed paddy is not a surgen. i prefer brian mc alinden i think he'd come up with a formula to sort this group of players out. i know alot of people dont like him but he has had some success any one would be better than por
Some good posts on this point in the past number of days.
I always hate losing to Tyrone because they really rub it in..... and to be honest they really are a hateful shower ..... but it is tempered this year with the hope that it may mean O'Rourke leaves.
His tactics are easy to read in my opinion and he has not honestly brought on one player from the great underage structures we have.
What did he do with a great emerging Down squad - nothing
Ditto with Armagh..........
The county board shafted all supporters with his appointment.... who remembers the video of him accepting the job late at night with the sun glaring in through the windows.......?
That prima facie interview shows how malevolent the county board has acted towards the faithful who follow the team week in and out.
Geezer could have brought on board a hefty financial package with Grimley as so many know (check out SUFC) and that would have been the ticket we all wanted.
But we can't change the past and we need a dedicated Armagh duo or triumvirate to lead and motivate the Team
AOR & Tony Mac have proved their capabilites at county and university level........... Give them a chance perhaps with Grimley part of the set up if he would say yes....... McGrane and Oisin to continue as some part of the team and there is the nucleus of something to move forward and bring Francie onboard as we were too easily outmuscled against the Sh1ts..... he could show them how to grow a set of balls.......
One more point..... McKinney never got the proper chance he deserved and we are ruing that to this present day
Anyway rant over
totally agree on mckinney the lad couldnt have bought a starting place i thought he was outstanding. also this hearty boob is the latest in a series of boobs hes a lovely lad but he creates havoc when he starts trying to play football and his backs are in a constant state of panic. i also notice he doesnt boob with cross.. so i dont know whats going on there
Quote from: eriugaMS on July 24, 2011, 11:15:45 PM
I always hate losing to Tyrone because they really rub it in..... and to be honest they really are a hateful shower .....
::)
Quote from: ziggysego on July 24, 2011, 11:37:01 PM
Quote from: eriugaMS on July 24, 2011, 11:15:45 PM
I always hate losing to Tyrone because they really rub it in..... and to be honest they really are a hateful shower .....
::)
Don t worry, some day you will beat us ................ some day !
Good post TYP.
The only positive I took from the last couple of games is that POR finally stopped bringing on Johnny Murtagh.
Yes, I'd like to see a new manager now.
But we also need to find some new county standard players, particularly in midfield. And as Joe Brolly (and board members here) have pointed out on numerous occasions - AK is not a defender.
The team for Div 1 next year should be
Hearty
Mallon Donaghy Moriarity
Duffy McKeever Dyas
Toner Vernon
Aaron Mackin BJP
Clarke Stevie MOR
(Cant believe I'm talking about the league, but we are Div One!)
Quote from: Orior on July 24, 2011, 11:53:12 PM
Good post TYP.
The only positive I took from the last couple of games is that POR finally stopped bringing on Johnny Murtagh.
Yes, I'd like to see a new manager now.
But we also need to find some new county standard players, particularly in midfield. And as Joe Brolly (and board members here) have pointed out on numerous occasions - AK is not a defender.
The team for Div 1 next year should be
Hearty
Mallon Donaghy Moriarity
Duffy McKeever Dyas
Toner Vernon
Aaron Mackin BJP
Clarke Stevie MOR
(Cant believe I'm talking about the league, but we are Div One!)
If that's what we're lining out next year then I reckon I'll give it a miss. New blood is needed. Peter Harte and Kyle Coney are starting for Tyrone three years after winning a minor AI, it would be depressing to think that we are looking at not a single first team graduate from our AI winning team within the same time scale.
Quote from: Orior on July 24, 2011, 11:53:12 PM
Good post TYP.
The only positive I took from the last couple of games is that POR finally stopped bringing on Johnny Murtagh.
Yes, I'd like to see a new manager now.
But we also need to find some new county standard players, particularly in midfield. And as Joe Brolly (and board members here) have pointed out on numerous occasions - AK is not a defender.
The team for Div 1 next year should be
Hearty
Mallon Donaghy Moriarity
Duffy McKeever Dyas
Toner Vernon
Aaron Mackin BJP
Clarke Stevie MOR
(Cant believe I'm talking about the league, but we are Div One!)
Aaron Kernan was tried in HF line last year with no success and he never seems to be exposed when playing for Cross so I'm not sure moving him again is the answer. Sorting a role for Aaron Kernan and Charlie Vernon ( undoubtedly talented player but unable to really nail down a position) will be a priority for whoever is in charge next year.
Defence still looks suspect on paper. McKeown from Cross needs to come into the Full back line and possibly McKenna given some more game time.
Main positives from this year have been Mackins consistent performances and M O'Rourkes creativity and chiipping in with scores from the HF line.
Where to start on this one?
First things first, I get the impression that POR is an honourable and decent man, and the fact that he is over on our side of the Clanrye River, doing it for expenses only (and I don't mean "expenses") reinforces that impression. There are many other names mentioned here as alternatives - all Armagh men - who wouldn't do it for that. That is not a criticism of them by the way; just stating it as I see it.
The stick he gets therefore does not sit comfortably with me. Don't get me wrong, he wouldn't have been my choice at the time but I felt once in place, he should be given a chance. Now after two years, it's time to look back. I think the criticisms that AFS outlined above are what struck me as the main issues. There seems to be no consistent approach, no long term plan, with regard to the direction the team is going, both in terms of play and personnel.
As regards play, I thought we played some very negative football throughout the league this year, and brought back memories of the Wexford nightmare of 2008. Yet come Championship, there was an absolute transformation in our style, going traditional 15 against 15, man for man. Consequently we were involved in some very open and thrilling games - real shoot outs - but given our resources, we were always going to lose out. (Our open style of play struck me as very naive - it would have not taken much tinkering to have made it into an effective gameplan that helped protect our defence and allowed us to attack in numbers greater than two.) Last year, the opposite happened - we played great stuff in the league - culminating in a great perfomance against Down in Croke Park, but reverted to type for the Championship, relying on two excellent forwards in attack, with the rest of the team sat back.
There are similar inconsistencies in personnel, with selctions giving the impression that decisions were being made on the last match only. Thus as an example, Finn Mo plays most of the league, disappears and then comes back in as a regular. Young Grugan started off well at the beginning of the year, but after a dip in form in which he was (rightly) dropped, he has disappeared off the face of the earth. Mal Mackin - wing half, full forward, wing half - Kevin Dyas corner back, half back, half foward, half back. The impression given is of a management making reactionary decisions.
As regards what is happening within the camp, I would have to say that I have no first hand knowledge of what is going on, save for the rumour mill like everyone else. That said, I spoke to two different people who I felt would be in a position to know, and both of whom I would regard as very reliable, and yet they gave absolutely contrasting views on what was going on!!!
I've often said that I feel this Armagh team might be top eight if prepared right and avoiding injuries, bad luck etc. Up until now, I thought they were underachieving. However after reflecting on last night, I'm beginning to doubt that analysis. Maybe we are where we should be - round 3 of the qualifiers, and that's it. We stayed up in Division One this year on the back of two wins, one of which was an absolute robbery of Monaghan in the Gaelic Field - they went down as a result.
Last night we were beaten by the better team, despite playing some good football for long periods, with our game yet again liberally sprinkled with unforced errors, that once gain were punished. It happens all the time. Top class players don't make the mistakes our players consistently make! And what's more, I don't think you can blame management for that.
So getting back to the question of management, where does all of the above leave us? What I reckon is there are better managers out there, but I'm not so sure that the more consistent and balanced game plan that I crave will do an awful lot for our place in the overall standings. We cannot change the players we have. Would there be much to be gained by a large investment in a new manager, even if the finance is there? What if there is no money for new managment - there is not much money to go around, and we have a significant debt to take care of around the redevelopment of the ground - if there's no money, suddenly replacing a manager might not be as an attractive a propostion!!
People can come on here and give off about the way the management situation has been dealt with by the County Board since the end of 2006, and I would share those concerns. But that's in the past, and nothing can be done to change that - it's gone! We have to look to the future. We will not be back at the top table until we have changes in personnel on the pitch. I have said in the past that our minor forwards of 2009 hold the key to the future. Let us hope that whoever is manager next year, and the year after, recognises that, and makes plans accordingly.
The county board are rotten to the core every single one of them! They should all be put out and a new board elected DEMOCRATICALLY! They don't seem to care about Armagh football and they definetl don't listen to what the genuine supporter thinks!
Excellent post Rufus but I would be worried about the emphasis placed on finances in your analysis. Even if the moneys not there to the extent needed to attract the top money men, efforts need to be made to attract someone. The minor management for example deserve a shot and although maybe a year or two with the u21 would be beneficial I'd have them ahead of giving POR another year. Christ I'd even take JK back.
I might overrate the current group of players but I think at least on paper we should be top 6 and able to be competitive. Earlier on this thread I went through the players achievements with teams pre this POR Armagh team and I think came to the conclusion that at most only two of them hadn't competiting in an AI final at one level or another so for me the quality of the player is there we just need a manager who can harvest it. POR has shown he can't .
All that said I fully expect him to waste another year in charge next year as the CB would have too much egg on their face if they pushed him out.
Quote from: tevez on July 25, 2011, 03:15:14 AM
The county board are rotten to the core every single one of them! They should all be put out and a new board elected DEMOCRATICALLY! They don't seem to care about Armagh football and they definetl don't listen to what the genuine supporter thinks!
An extremely harsh over reaction! I'd have a lot of time for some of the County Board. They give up a lot of their time for the good of Armagh football.
Mr Tevez... what have you done for your county?
Quote from: AFS on July 24, 2011, 03:43:35 PM
A lot of criticism of O'Rourke in the last two years has been over the top and of the bar stool variety. Unfortunately, this has lead to the drowning out and easy dismissal of merited criticisms. But these do exist.
As far as I'm concerned there are two major issues that O'Rourke has floundered on.
1. Despite having two full seasons to develop a system of play that maximizes the resources available, he is no further on in this task than the day he took over. Even the desperate chopping and changing of styles throughout this year's league failed to produce anything worth talking about. This absence of a structure that everyone bought into and could fall back on when things got tough, meant that we suffered some of the worst Championship collapses in decades.
2. There has been so little development in the last two seasons that it's hardly worth talking about. We're supposed to be a team 'in transition' with decent underage graduates to bring through. But we're not really doing any transitioning. The majority of the team has remained the same throughout the last two seasons. We've a big group of lads in their mid to late twenties stagnating in mediocrity. This stagnation alone should be reason enough for a change. The last two seasons have just been a waste of time.
I don't get this team in transition thing...why are Kerry never in transition?
A lot of people seem to mix up the county board and the county executive.
Quote from: tevez on July 25, 2011, 03:15:14 AM
The county board are rotten to the core every single one of them! They should all be put out and a new board elected DEMOCRATICALLY! They don't seem to care about Armagh football and they definetl don't listen to what the genuine supporter thinks!
Bullsh88. This keeps coming up. Every year the clubs elect the county board, every CB meeting has delegates at them. Any club at any time can with enough support table motions to give effect to changes in policy, manpower etc. They don't though. The reason they don't is because no one wants to take on the amount of unpaid work it takes to undertake the roles. So we end up with people who
want to do the job. They may not necesarily be the right person but they are the only ones in many case. the GAA is democratic, it's just that we the ordinary members choose not to exercise our rights. So what you get then is a selfserving club of men who have been there in many cases for years. You'll see them in the middle section of the stand at matches. It is not their fault though its ours...we don't want to do the work...we prefer to bitch.
I should add that I am not criticisng the County Officers as such, many do good work, but some have lost sight of their raison d'etre, but agin that is the club's fault.
Quote from: David McKeown on July 25, 2011, 03:59:38 AM
Excellent post Rufus but I would be worried about the emphasis placed on finances in your analysis. Even if the moneys not there to the extent needed to attract the top money men, efforts need to be made to attract someone. The minor management for example deserve a shot and although maybe a year or two with the u21 would be beneficial I'd have them ahead of giving POR another year. Christ I'd even take JK back.
I might overrate the current group of players but I think at least on paper we should be top 6 and able to be competitive. Earlier on this thread I went through the players achievements with teams pre this POR Armagh team and I think came to the conclusion that at most only two of them hadn't competiting in an AI final at one level or another so for me the quality of the player is there we just need a manager who can
harvest it. POR has shown he can't .
All that said I fully expect him to waste another year in charge next year as the CB would have too much egg on their face if they pushed him out.
David I think you place far too much importance in underage success and that it will automatically translate to senior success.
Quote from: Minder on July 25, 2011, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 25, 2011, 03:59:38 AM
Excellent post Rufus but I would be worried about the emphasis placed on finances in your analysis. Even if the moneys not there to the extent needed to attract the top money men, efforts need to be made to attract someone. The minor management for example deserve a shot and although maybe a year or two with the u21 would be beneficial I'd have them ahead of giving POR another year. Christ I'd even take JK back.
I might overrate the current group of players but I think at least on paper we should be top 6 and able to be competitive. Earlier on this thread I went through the players achievements with teams pre this POR Armagh team and I think came to the conclusion that at most only two of them hadn't competiting in an AI final at one level or another so for me the quality of the player is there we just need a manager who can
harvest it. POR has shown he can't .
All that said I fully expect him to waste another year in charge next year as the CB would have too much egg on their face if they pushed him out.
David I think you place far too much importance in underage success and that it will automatically translate to senior success.
To be fair he has a point at least some of that minor squad should be breaking through, particularly up front where scores can be hard to find. I would reluctantly agree with Spillane when speaking about Jamie Clarke, he said that he proves skill beats muscle and physique any time... or words to that effect.
I am not surprised you want POR to go but that is an irrelevant desire. The only relevant question is who would you want to replace him?
POR is infinitely better than no-one, so obviously just sacking him for the sake of it would serve no purpose than indulging in the negative emotion of satisfaction through misdirected revenge. Sacking POR would only be positive if you can answer the only question that matters - who would replace him?
And remember McGeeney is not available (also in four years has never beaten Tyrone, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Down or Armagh in a championship match)
Quote from: tevez on July 25, 2011, 03:15:14 AM
The county board are rotten to the core every single one of them! They should all be put out and a new board elected DEMOCRATICALLY! They don't seem to care about Armagh football and they definetl don't listen to what the genuine supporter thinks!
That is an absolutely ludicrous post.
TYP:
- With regards to no.1, Paddy O'Rourke must be like a virus from hell if he has somehow managed to turn a group of previously sound defenders into a bunch of under-12 tacklers within 18 months. I think you're lying too much blame at the feet of the manager's coaching ability there. The truth is a bit simpler. As Armagh are now playing more expansive football with fewer defenders, their defenders therefore have an increased chance of having to confront an attacker who is moving at full speed, which is an infinitely more difficult (and card inducing) proposition than tackling a static player. This is the trade-off for attacking play. It's got feck all to do with tackling technique or referees.
- With regards to no.2, Armagh have the same problem as Down in that our players aren't at the same natural athletic level as Cork or Dublin, or to a lesser extent Tyrone. It doesn't matter so much against Dublin as they're not as good at football. You can train a team all you like, but you can't make them into something they're not, the same way that you couldn't train Xabi Alonso to do the running of Steven Gerrard. Again, tactically, this something Armagh's management should be mroe aware of; if you're going to go toe-to-toe with a fitter, better team, then you're going to end up getting beaten. You need to be cuter, and more ruthless.
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 25, 2011, 12:19:30 PM
A number of simple factors indicate that the current management doesn't have the basics of the modern game:
Whilst I agree with some of the points you make TYP, nowhere in your post do you address the elephant in the room. The players are not good enough at the highest level - that is the reality. In the last two Championship campaigns, we have been put out by superior teams - both probably top five teams - who simply should be beating us, all things being equal. Within Ulster, we have been beaten by teams who I would reckon we are probably on a par with - Derry and Monaghan.
You make the comparison with Donegal, and yet Tyrone will kick themselves for throwing away that game, whilst for us, depsite our tactical ineptitude against Derry, the game swung on thirty seconds of football that produced a six point swing. Donegal could quite easily have bee in the qualifiers at he same point as us, whilst for all our tactical ineptitude against Derry, it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch of the imagination to see us playing in an Ulster Final.
I accept that there are issues with management, and indeed they would not be my ideal choice. I do not feel though that there will be an awful lot to gain by changing, and if change were to be considered in the future, then the issue of dollars is likely to be a factor.
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 25, 2011, 12:19:30 PM
A number of simple factors indicate that the current management doesn't have the basics of the modern game:
1. Our players cannot tackle properly. How often on Saturday night did you see players just throwing themselves at a running Tyrone player and letting him sidestep and run on. Remember the days of the tackling clinics with top referees when JK would ensure that our players knew what was allowed and would stick to the rules. We no longer have the capacity to play the referee, against Tyrone virtually all yelllow cards were for fouls for pulling an opponent around the neck or reaching over his shoulder. No one on the sideline had the wit to get a message on to stop that. Thankfully, the referee was useless and let the play run on when obvious fouls occurred, how often did the players appear to stop when a foul occurred only to be waved on? A better referee would have ensured that Tyrone beat us on frees alone. There is no coaching of the players on how to win the free or to tackle without conceding the free. If management know who is going to referee the game with at least 5 days notice then it should be possible to coach the team on how to play him to their advantage. This shows a management without a clue of the modern game.
2. Our players are not at a level of fitness that is required, imagined how they would fair against the likes of Cork or Dublin who have much higher levels of fitness and this is in the situation where a full time coach is employed allegedly for at least £75K per annum and players are training 6 days per week. Tyrone have much less training without a fulltime coach and appeared to be fitter.
3. There is no system of play, as mentioned above, a player will never be given a chance to establish himself in a position and others have no idea of our to play together. Look at last Saturday, they didn't know what to do, lump the ball in to Jamie Clarke or play it into space? The lad is a real talent but he needs to know what to do to get the ball if he is to score. We had no one in midfiled to hoover up the dirty ball when the midfielders started to break the ball. Tyrone played Petey Harte in that role and we had no one and management couldn't even see that was where we were losing out on possession.
4. We have no defensive system, how many times with JK did we concede the level of scores that we have with POR? Virtually never with the exception of against Kerry in 2006 which was the beginning of the end. We have dispensed with the sweeper, it looks like playing an "attractive" game is more important than winning. To get anywhere, you must win dirty and grind out results in most games and not worry what the pundits say. Donegal don't please many with their style but they are in the quarters.
And the players need to be told that?
If so the problems run much deeper than the Manager.
Quote from: Minder on July 25, 2011, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 25, 2011, 03:59:38 AM
Excellent post Rufus but I would be worried about the emphasis placed on finances in your analysis. Even if the moneys not there to the extent needed to attract the top money men, efforts need to be made to attract someone. The minor management for example deserve a shot and although maybe a year or two with the u21 would be beneficial I'd have them ahead of giving POR another year. Christ I'd even take JK back.
I might overrate the current group of players but I think at least on paper we should be top 6 and able to be competitive. Earlier on this thread I went through the players achievements with teams pre this POR Armagh team and I think came to the conclusion that at most only two of them hadn't competiting in an AI final at one level or another so for me the quality of the player is there we just need a manager who can
harvest it. POR has shown he can't .
All that said I fully expect him to waste another year in charge next year as the CB would have too much egg on their face if they pushed him out.
David I think you place far too much importance in underage success and that it will automatically translate to senior success.
I might place too much emphasis on underage success but I don't think it will translate automatically but and this is the big but for me this isn't a squad based solely around one or two successful under age teams. This is a squad who are drawn from a number of successful teams at different levels. There (if I understand the starting line up from Saturday correctly) were 4 players who have started or won at least one Senior All Ireland Inter County finals. At least 5 who have won an u21 all Ireland. At least 3 who have won club all irelands and at least 2 Sigerson winners. The point I'm making is that these players have been able to be successful in sides other than the current Armagh side but under POR they look ordinary. To me that is more down to the quality of the manager than the quality of the player. I honestly think we have a very very good squad but they are massively underperforming because of POR. Time will of course no doubt prove me wrong but hey I'm used to that at this stage.
One big problem with bringing in an outside manager is results, ie he knows that if he doesn't get results immediately then forums like this will have a XXX out thread...just like this one. but more importantly both Clubs and County Boards will exert pressure. If we are to develop and introduce the young players that are out there and I can think of a few from the U21 panel then we need someone who is Armagh through and through who like the two Brians is prepared to work at getting the team competing at a higher level. I am surprised that no one has mentioned Paul McShane. I would agree with Rufus in that we have some players in the current setup who are not equipped to play at this level and never will be. There are others out there who deserve a chance. If the CB want to keep POR and I would accept that he probably has done enough to deserve another year despite my concerns then perhaps we need to look at bringing in some one to take over. Time to eat humble pie with John Raff?
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 25, 2011, 02:15:20 PM
One big problem with bringing in an outside manager is results, ie he knows that if he doesn't get results immediately then forums like this will have a XXX out thread...just like this one. but more importantly both Clubs and County Boards will exert pressure. If we are to develop and introduce the young players that are out there and I can think of a few from the U21 panel then we need someone who is Armagh through and through who like the two Brians is prepared to work at getting the team competing at a higher level. I am surprised that no one has mentioned Paul McShane. I would agree with Rufus in that we have some players in the current setup who are not equipped to play at this level and never will be. There are others out there who deserve a chance. If the CB want to keep POR and I would accept that he probably has done enough to deserve another year despite my concerns then perhaps we need to look at bringing in some one to take over. Time to eat humble pie with John Raff?
Bejayus! Could you not have added some warning or alert that you were going to finish with that last sentence? I nearly cowpped over. Who is he managing these days?
I think Paddy should get another crack at it, he was the man at the helm when we managed to stay in the top flight even though we had no business staying up, he has had key injuries at the wiorst possible times and although we are an up and coming side we are nowhere near the 99-05 vintage and we have to realize that.
I was horrified when he got the job however I did support him once he took the helm and although he is not the best manager out there I just dont know if we are good enough to have any higher aspirations at the moment and I dont know that the likes of big joe would have made that much of a difference.
I cant believe POR didnt succeed with the best back line in Ireland! Shame, crying shame!
Quote from: stew on July 25, 2011, 04:34:10 PM
I think Paddy should get another crack at it, he was the man at the helm when we managed to stay in the top flight even though we had no business staying up, he has had key injuries at the wiorst possible times and although we are an up and coming side we are nowhere near the 99-05 vintage and we have to realize that.
I was horrified when he got the job however I did support him once he took the helm and although he is not the best manager out there I just dont know if we are good enough to have any higher aspirations at the moment and I dont know that the likes of big joe would have made that much of a difference.
f**k me, you're right! Why haven't any of us eejits travelling the country to watch these bucks ever realised this before? Why hasn't anyone else ever pointed this out before? Thank you stew, thank you for this wonderful enlightenment!
...as a man said to me today, it's not POR is the problem, it's the bloody ejits who appointed him!
POR has got much criticism on these boards, most of it justified however the point that is often overlooked is that Paddy had a desperatly poor backroom team.
That is v true actually ck - Donal Murtagh, for example, was rejected outright by the players as a management option and then presented, after weeks of ttawling, as the assistant manager.
I'm not a big poster but would come on alot to read people's opinion's. On this issue however I feel I have to post.
There are a few issues that don't sit well with me regarding Armagh football.
1 - We won an All-Ireland in 2002! This had the potential to create an even broader base for GAA within the county than ever before. I saw it for myself. Suddenly, going into town you were met with a sea of orange. I felt at the time that this would be a great opportunity for our County Board to get into the schools properly, organise and tap into that swell. It was there for the doing. But it didn't happen! Instead I stood back and watched Tyrone fulfill all the discussions I had had with various Armagh people as to what we would love to see happen in Armagh, particularly in our underage structures. Tyrone showed us how to do it both on a practical and organisational level. The swell has now dissipated! Why was this allowed to happen?
2 - We had a debacle over the correct management team to be put in place a few years ago, with a native Armagh man overlooked. Now I want to state at this juncture that I feel POR to be an honourable gentleman. I'm not even comfortable with the title of this thread regarding a GAA member. However, this does not mean that these issues can be ignored! Someone else on here is defending the CB to the hilt. And whilst I take your point that it is clubs who nominate CB reps, I still know that this is completely sown up. How much power does the ordinary club man have when it comes to democratic decisions - not alot. And I would take a wild guess and say that due to the fact CB decisions are made in private, how in the name of God is a club member supposed to understand how much their club rep has had influence in the decision making process at board level. Just a question, is there even any list detailing who each clubs reps are and who makes up the CB? Because bar a few I genuinely don't know who's in it!
3 - The thing I found most upsetting on Saturday was not the defeat, but the manner by which it happened. Without disrespecting any player it was obvious that there was no passion or fight in that Armagh team. Now in my opinion, this aspect of a teams psyche emanates directly from the management. If things aren't right there it shows - and it did. The main characteristic of of that 2002 team was the willingness to fight to the last second - thats what I took pride in. Look at Kildare, not blessed with the most gifted footballers but have the mark of our 2002 team, and thats why they are now in a quarter final. Its nearly 10 years since we won that final. Are our CB seriously telling us that from that entire panel of players and backroom squad, there's no-one within our county to take the lead or could do a better job than POR? Have these questions ever been put to them - oh thats right we'll never know! And they're talking about another year - God help us! But sure they'll wait a while till the dust settles and then quietly announce in a Tuesday Irish News that POR has decided to stay on and what'll we do? absolutely nothing. Cause its been done so many times before!
4 - Does anyone else get the distinct impression that politics and not football is whats motivating our administration? Let the CB go to its members, right down to club level and get they're opinions - do it the right way or else let the clubs themselves decide. At least this would give us some transparency. Or else we'll just keep making hidden decisions like those which settled upon the name for our new county ground! It all would really make you wonder!!!!!
Sorry also meant to ask where can club members access the CB minutes of meetings? Surely these are documented as would be required from any board with membership? Can someone let us know where these can be accessed?
Aoise best post on here in a long time. Wonder if anyone can answer your questions.
Like most people, I presume, I rarely get through long posts (despite writing quite a few myself!!) But I have to say it was a pleasure to read such a well structured and intelligent post as Aoise's.
But I have to say that on the whole the people of any county board do give up a lot of time and are dedicated people. Sometimes they make bad decisions, sometimes they make selfish decisions, they will always enjoy their we spot of wining and dining when times are good. But in general they all are there because they think they can do some good. It is very much a damned if you do and damned if you don't position.
I dont know Paddy O'Rourke but he gives me the impression he is an honest, decent gentleman. I feel sorry that it hasn't worked out for him or armagh during the last 2 years. I believe the coaching set up was forced on him and a new manager should at least be allowed to select his own management team. Unlike many of the candidates who were mentioned before and will be mentioned again the next time there is a vacancy, I would doubt Paddy made many financial stipulations on taking the job. There appears to be a lot of mystery over who is pulling the strings in armagh football and Paddy is proabably another victim of this. Hopefully Paddy will offer his resignation and Armagh can move on.
Armagh are no longer a top 8 team but they have a lot of good footballers. With the correct appointment the future could be bright. We need a manager who will instill discipline, determination, a gameplan and committment. I would think the vast majority af armagh supporters would love to see McGeeney take over but I dont think he would work in the environment that POR and PMcD have worked in. I hope I'm wrong. If not McGeeney, there would still be excellent options such as Grimley / McAlinden / McGrane / AO'Rourke / McEntee.
Anyway, possible line up for next years championship:
McKinney
Mallon Donaghy McKeown
McKenna McKeever Dyas
Toner Lavery
O'Rourke McDonnell McParland
Clarke RClarke Forker
Quote from: Aoise on July 26, 2011, 12:30:41 PM
Sorry also meant to ask where can club members access the CB minutes of meetings? Surely these are documented as would be required from any board with membership? Can someone let us know where these can be accessed?
Aoise,
I take many of the points you are making. I would also concur with other posters that most of the voluteer members of the CB/Executive have the good of the County and Armagh football at heart. They can and do make mistakes. In relation to the make up of the County Board. It is decided at the County AGM. Every club in the County is entitled to two votes at an AGM and as far as I know each member of the outgoing executive also has a vote. Each Club committee should instruct it's delegates how to vote and who to vote for at an AGM. The CB encourages each club to hold its own AGM before the County AGM therefore the Club can take decisions on motions, elections etc... So theoretically each Club member can have a say. But it is democracy and so the majority will win out. Politics do come into play, both internal club politics and interclub/divisional board politics. It is possible for each club member to propose and see through a motion or get someone elected. I would suspect that many of those on here complaining about disenfranchisement don't even pay there full club subs toe entitle them to vote, happy to pay social memberships because its cheaper. To get something over the line can very often involve lobbying which most of us are too lazy to do, so the CB does it for us. This does not take away our rights or ability to effect change.
Should also have said that all minutes are circulated to clubs and any member would be entitled to a copy.
Quote from: ck on July 25, 2011, 09:50:58 PM
.POR has got much criticism on these boards, however the point that is often overlooked is that Paddy had a desperatly poor backroom team.
i felt sorry for paddy an honourable GAA man and the title tothis thread reflects poorly on the discussion board .
for what its worth I think we are an average side with probably 6 good inter county pros( am, ak, stevie,donaghy cmckand toner), by this i mean guys you can depend on week in week out,
so far charlie, , mor, dyas,etc havent yet arrived and mightnt do so and it is unfair on jamie to place some much pressure on him in his first full season.
Paddy has said he will do whatever the county board asks of him and I for on think that in itself is an acknowledgement that he is skating on thin ice we should put in a 3 year plan to allow jamie, dyas ,mc kenna, hanratty cumiskey( from silver bridge)mc parland and geough who is playing well for shamrocks to develope.
my choice is an older head to allow us to develop with oisin and mc entee assisting, that older head to beone of--mc shane, mc alinden or peter raffertry
Quotei felt sorry for paddy an honourable GAA man and the title tothis thread reflects poorly on the discussion board .
Indeed. Perhaps tevez might change the title to "Armagh management and strategy" or the like?
In relation to Aoise's points. Armagh has had more underage success since 2002 than it had in the 40 years before that, so the situation is not quite a loss in this respect. And on Saturday I thought there were positives in Armagh's first half performance, they showed a sense of urgency that was often lacking. The soft goal really killed the game and meant that in the second half the gap was going to be too much.
There is talk of McAlinden, but the U-21s went out in the first round in the last 2 years, and with a minor win two years ago you would expect that if there is talent coming through that more progress might have been made.
QuoteShould also have said that all minutes are circulated to clubs and any member would be entitled to a copy.
One word. Web.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 26, 2011, 04:26:07 PM
Quotei felt sorry for paddy an honourable GAA man and the title tothis thread reflects poorly on the discussion board .
Indeed. Perhaps tevez might change the title to "Armagh management and strategy" or the like?
In relation to Aoise's points. Armagh has had more underage success since 2002 than it had in the 40 years before that, so the situation is not quite a loss in this respect. And on Saturday I thought there were positives in Armagh's first half performance, they showed a sense of urgency that was often lacking. The soft goal really killed the game and meant that in the second half the gap was going to be too much.
There is talk of McAlinden, but the U-21s went out in the first round in the last 2 years, and with a minor win two years ago you would expect that if there is talent coming through that more progress might have been made.
QuoteShould also have said that all minutes are circulated to clubs and any member would be entitled to a copy.
One word. Web.
if you are talking about the county website it is crap...but thats another story.
Apples, thanks for your post, it was very informative!
I think your point regarding those that are willing to criticise but will do nothing themselves is very much justified, however, the point still remains that the workings and the politics of the Armagh CB is still seen by many to be overly covert and very much ignorant of the ordinary GAA members viewpoint. They could have put in place ways to rectify this if they are confident of they're procedures i.e. Putting minutes on website, putting decisions out to clubs etc... There as been much criticism of this board in the last number of years yet the status quo remains. I would like to hear more from the CB in future especially if they are considering continuing this course!
Also regarding membership of the CB - is there a list of executive members anywhere? Is this on the official website - genuinely don't know this. I realise that they are volunteers, but volunteers with our football structures in their hands which in relation to whats important to us places quite a bit of power at their door. More accountability is called for and things should be done and explained more in the open! I am a member of 2 boards (business and social) on a voluntary basis. We cannot scratch ourselves without it being documented on and reported upon - even though we are voluntary! so being voluntary does not excuse bad practice in my opinion. Maybe this is all being unfair on the CB - but as they've never voiced their concern or made their feelings known publicly, we'll never know!
When will it be made offical that POR is gone
Quote from: here comes 6 on July 26, 2011, 05:46:40 PM
When will it be made offical that POR is gone
there should be no decision on any footballing or hurling matters when Armagh are still in with a chance of bringing silverware to the county in both codes, football( minors) hurling ( the u21s)
Quote from: regal on July 26, 2011, 01:38:31 PM
I dont know Paddy O'Rourke but he gives me the impression he is an honest, decent gentleman. I feel sorry that it hasn't worked out for him or armagh during the last 2 years. I believe the coaching set up was forced on him and a new manager should at least be allowed to select his own management team. Unlike many of the candidates who were mentioned before and will be mentioned again the next time there is a vacancy, I would doubt Paddy made many financial stipulations on taking the job. There appears to be a lot of mystery over who is pulling the strings in armagh football and Paddy is proabably another victim of this. Hopefully Paddy will offer his resignation and Armagh can move on.
Armagh are no longer a top 8 team but they have a lot of good footballers. With the correct appointment the future could be bright. We need a manager who will instill discipline, determination, a gameplan and committment. I would think the vast majority af armagh supporters would love to see McGeeney take over but I dont think he would work in the environment that POR and PMcD have worked in. I hope I'm wrong. If not McGeeney, there would still be excellent options such as Grimley / McAlinden / McGrane / AO'Rourke / McEntee.
Anyway, possible line up for next years championship:
McKinney
Mallon Donaghy McKeown
McKenna McKeever Dyas
Toner Lavery
O'Rourke McDonnell McParland
Clarke RClarke Forker
I hope that you are not the next Armagh manager. ???
Quote from: crossfire on July 26, 2011, 09:57:54 PM
Quote from: regal on July 26, 2011, 01:38:31 PM
I dont know Paddy O'Rourke but he gives me the impression he is an honest, decent gentleman. I feel sorry that it hasn't worked out for him or armagh during the last 2 years. I believe the coaching set up was forced on him and a new manager should at least be allowed to select his own management team. Unlike many of the candidates who were mentioned before and will be mentioned again the next time there is a vacancy, I would doubt Paddy made many financial stipulations on taking the job. There appears to be a lot of mystery over who is pulling the strings in armagh football and Paddy is proabably another victim of this. Hopefully Paddy will offer his resignation and Armagh can move on.
Armagh are no longer a top 8 team but they have a lot of good footballers. With the correct appointment the future could be bright. We need a manager who will instill discipline, determination, a gameplan and committment. I would think the vast majority af armagh supporters would love to see McGeeney take over but I dont think he would work in the environment that POR and PMcD have worked in. I hope I'm wrong. If not McGeeney, there would still be excellent options such as Grimley / McAlinden / McGrane / AO'Rourke / McEntee.
Anyway, possible line up for next years championship:
McKinney
Mallon Donaghy McKeown
McKenna McKeever Dyas
Toner Lavery
O'Rourke McDonnell McParland
Clarke RClarke Forker
I hope that you are not the next Armagh manager. ???
Have to agree with Crossfire! For me we should not be going back to McKinney - he quit so leave him alone. If we are to look at a new keeper look at some of the younger ones. There are a number of other players I think should be on but that is now a discussion for next year.
Also, is there anyway to change the title of this thread. Most people seem to agree that POR is an honourable man and no matter what we think of his management I have no doubt he is doing his best for Armagh.
More realistic Champ team
1)Hearty(If not McEvoy from Sarfields)
2)Mallon
3)Donaghy
4)McKeown
5)Kernan
6)McKeever
7)Duffy
8)Hanratty
9)Toner
10)o`rourke
11)McDonnell
12)S.Kernan
13)Clarke
14)Clarke(If not fit Caolan Rafferty)
15)McParland
No Vernon and no defensive cover at all? I wouldn't be too happy with that team. Also dropping Mackin who has had a very good year.
Quote from: David McKeown on July 26, 2011, 11:44:26 PM
No Vernon and no defensive cover at all? I wouldn't be too happy with that team. Also dropping Mackin who has had a very good year.
Its still better than the one someone said above me
True enough
QuoteAlso, is there anyway to change the title of this thread.
tevez started the thread, he/she can change the title. I think he/she should.
As for prospective teams, what is the story with Nippy Swift? When the league started against Dublin he looked a good prospect, didn't quite shine as brightly later on and then got injured. Should be in contention though.
Quote from: naka on July 26, 2011, 06:56:38 PM
Quote from: here comes 6 on July 26, 2011, 05:46:40 PM
When will it be made offical that POR is gone
there should be no decision on any footballing or hurling matters when Armagh are still in with a chance of bringing silverware to the county in both codes, football( minors) hurling ( the u21s)
He isn't going anywhere, he wants to stay and has done enough to keep his job, whether we like it or not.
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 27, 2011, 11:03:47 AM
Quote from: naka on July 26, 2011, 06:56:38 PM
Quote from: here comes 6 on July 26, 2011, 05:46:40 PM
When will it be made offical that POR is gone
there should be no decision on any footballing or hurling matters when Armagh are still in with a chance of bringing silverware to the county in both codes, football( minors) hurling ( the u21s)
He isn't going anywhere, he wants to stay and has done enough to keep his job, whether we like it or not.
Have to agree which just shows the lack of ambition within our county.
Quote from: David McKeown on July 27, 2011, 04:36:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 27, 2011, 11:03:47 AM
Quote from: naka on July 26, 2011, 06:56:38 PM
Quote from: here comes 6 on July 26, 2011, 05:46:40 PM
When will it be made offical that POR is gone
there should be no decision on any footballing or hurling matters when Armagh are still in with a chance of bringing silverware to the county in both codes, football( minors) hurling ( the u21s)
He isn't going anywhere, he wants to stay and has done enough to keep his job, whether we like it or not.
Have to agree which just shows the lack of ambition within our county.
No one can question POR's brass neck!
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 27, 2011, 11:34:36 PM
I don't think it has to do with having a brass neck but it has more a sign that the management team isn't up to the job when they can't see that they have not produced a return which is commensurate with the talent available.
Sorry TYP, but that is very much a matter of opinion.
It is not obvious to me that the return is not commensurate with the talent available.
Its bloody July and Im wondering when the league fixtures are out for next year :'( depressing.
Once again, I'm fairly perplexed as to why anyone thinks the Kildare squad is limited.
It might sink in some day that they actually have a better team than Armagh, but I'm not holding my breath.
Even more bizarre is the comparison with Tyrone. The Red Hands are getting on a bit, but as a simple measure, none of Armagh's half forwards would even be considered for the Tyrone squad. Tyrone have a slight edge in class and a huge edge in depth.
Put as simply as possible The Tyrone men have more in way of substance to themselves than the orchard pickers. Maybe get a Tyrone man in to manage next year? Ross Carr anyone? James McCartan in 12 months? All good honest GAA men who wont be looking their 30 pieces of silvers!
Quote from: thewobbler on July 28, 2011, 07:20:03 AM
Once again, I'm fairly perplexed as to why anyone thinks the Kildare squad is limited.
It might sink in some day that they actually have a better team than Armagh, but I'm not holding my breath.
Even more bizarre is the comparison with Tyrone. The Red Hands are getting on a bit, but as a simple measure, none of Armagh's half forwards would even be considered for the Tyrone squad. Tyrone have a slight edge in class and a huge edge in depth.
This is were I think Tyrone supporters are deluding themselves if they think that Tyrone would be as consistently challenging if Harte was not their manager. Without getting into the merits of players one simple matter shows the difference in the coaching and systems. On Saturday if Jamie Clarke got the ball and took it round Gormley Tyrone had someone as cover. On the otherhand if any Tyrone forward took it round his marker he was clear on goal with no cover. This has been consistent throughout the championship with nothing done. Sadly, this is only one of Armagh's problems! If as Rufus says Armagh do not have the players it would help if we could see the players there are improving, or if not, replaced and someone else tried.
Take your points, I am sure you fully believe what you say & to a certain extent I can see where you are coming from. Armagh certainly have talent within the squad.... I think at times tyrones system of play makes people sometimes forget how actually good a vast majority of their players are. I am no fan of Tyrone, but will be supporting them as an ulster side going forward, but I have to say the likes Mc Mahons x2, Jordan, Harte, Mc Guigan, Gormly, Cavanagh & Penrose would walk onto every other team on the island. Tyrone though not as strong as they were still have some serious ball players. I was really impressed with the fluidity of their movement going forward against us & pace. Now for Armagh, we seem to lack genuine pace ,clarke & o rourke aside (going forward). Our style of play is almost too traditional & we are thus exposed in the modern game. Armagh has the likes of Clarke, Vernon, Kernan, Mc Donnell & Mc Keever who I believe would start for tyrone if they were born across the blackwater. We have a lot of average players who when they come up against top opposition are cruelly exposed. Its time to really blood 4-5 U-21s/minors and start building, if we are ever to get back to the top table
Quote from: thewobbler on July 28, 2011, 07:20:03 AM
Once again, I'm fairly perplexed as to why anyone thinks the Kildare squad is limited.
It might sink in some day that they actually have a better team than Armagh, but I'm not holding my breath.
Even more bizarre is the comparison with Tyrone. The Red Hands are getting on a bit, but as a simple measure, none of Armagh's half forwards would even be considered for the Tyrone squad. Tyrone have a slight edge in class and a huge edge in depth.
The Kildare panel is made up of twenty nine donkeys rounded up from the depths of the Kildare junior championship and Johnny Doyle. Sure that McGeeney is an absolute miracle worker. He'd have three All-Irelands won with Armagh since 2008 if Syl Merrins hadn't lured him to the Shortgrass with promises of K-Club membership and shares in thoroughbred racehorses.
I don't understand some Armagh posters' attitude to Kildare's quality. Grossly unfair. Don't want to sound patronising DH but I really hope ye boys win it and if you do it won't be solely down to Geezer, he has an excellent panel of players.
Don't think anyone who has watched football closely could say that Kildare don't have a great bunch of players, even the curse of the cruciate has failed to stop them, thus far.
Always had the forwards and they kick some great tallies in the second half of games, but even more impressive has been the fact that their defence has tightened up - something they haven't been famed for.
Kildare absolutely hammered Armagh in a challenge match before the DOwn game
Dont know who doesnt rate Kildares players, i rate them seriously as a team and potential finalists. Hopefully they wont have to play the ref as well if they come up against the dubs again.
I think Kildare have a serious group of players but I think Armagh do as well. The problem though is that under POR I don't think the Armagh players have been able to perform at 100% and people are using these performances to say the Armagh players aren't as good as myself and TYP make out. I don't want to speak for TYP but for me there is a serious amount of talent in the Armagh squad and on paper I'd go as far as to say a top 6 side in terms of raw talent but under POR we have been no where near top 6 and that's why I'd like to see a new man in charge. For me if a player like Charlie Vernon and hes only the first example that came to mind were in Tyrone, Mickey Harte would have found a way to play him suited to his skills that would have turned him into a much better player. POR so far has been unable to do so
Dont want to be turning this into a thread about Kildare but IMO Kildare are a decent side, not a great side. They have beaten the likes of Antrim, Liatrom, Derry, Meath and Laois over the last 3 years in qualifers and failed against teams like louth and wicklow. More to the point until the can beat one of the "big 4", they can never be called a great side.
A structured defence, hunger and fitness can take u so far but u wont win anything without star forwards. Johnny Doyle was a great footballer and is still playing well and Kavanagh when given room can do damage but can struggle on the big days. Other than that I am struggling, the big fella at full foward wouldnt last a shot against Joe McMahon or Michael Shields.
To get to the point Armagh and Kildare would have a similar level of player imo, so yes McGeeny deserves credit for getting them to where they are but then again he hasnt met Dublin or Tyrone in qualifers whereas POR has. The luck of the draw can do alot for a managers CV, just ask James McCartan!!!
Quote from: David McKeown on July 28, 2011, 12:55:48 PM
I think Kildare have a serious group of players but I think Armagh do as well. The problem though is that under POR I don't think the Armagh players have been able to perform at 100% and people are using these performances to say the Armagh players aren't as good as myself and TYP make out. I don't want to speak for TYP but for me there is a serious amount of talent in the Armagh squad and on paper I'd go as far as to say a top 6 side in terms of raw talent but under POR we have been no where near top 6 and that's why I'd like to see a new man in charge. For me if a player like Charlie Vernon and hes only the first example that came to mind were in Tyrone, Mickey Harte would have found a way to play him suited to his skills that would have turned him into a much better player. POR so far has been unable to do so
I really don't think so. Down performed way above themselves last year and they are playing to their potential this year which isn't fantastic. Armagh have a decent bunch of players who playing at the top of their game could probably squeeze an All Ireland Semi Final out of their game but that would be the height of it I imagine.
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 28, 2011, 07:53:50 PM
Quote from: screenexile on July 28, 2011, 02:05:50 PM
Armagh have a decent bunch of players who playing at the top of their game could probably squeeze an All Ireland Semi Final out of their game but that would be the height of it I imagine.
That's my point, a semi final would be a great achievement but not an expectation every year>
A semi final, there is not a man in the country could coach this current squad to an AI semi final not one.
Quote from: stew on July 28, 2011, 08:02:25 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 28, 2011, 07:53:50 PM
Quote from: screenexile on July 28, 2011, 02:05:50 PM
Armagh have a decent bunch of players who playing at the top of their game could probably squeeze an All Ireland Semi Final out of their game but that would be the height of it I imagine.
That's my point, a semi final would be a great achievement but not an expectation every year>
A semi final, there is not a man in the country could coach this current squad to an AI semi final not one.
Catch a grip if the structure is in place and the players all playing for each other and the mangement their is no reason why they cant get to a semi final no matter who the manager is!! As we have the players at our disposal
Quote from: screenexile on July 28, 2011, 02:05:50 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 28, 2011, 12:55:48 PM
I think Kildare have a serious group of players but I think Armagh do as well. The problem though is that under POR I don't think the Armagh players have been able to perform at 100% and people are using these performances to say the Armagh players aren't as good as myself and TYP make out. I don't want to speak for TYP but for me there is a serious amount of talent in the Armagh squad and on paper I'd go as far as to say a top 6 side in terms of raw talent but under POR we have been no where near top 6 and that's why I'd like to see a new man in charge. For me if a player like Charlie Vernon and hes only the first example that came to mind were in Tyrone, Mickey Harte would have found a way to play him suited to his skills that would have turned him into a much better player. POR so far has been unable to do so
I really don't think so. Down performed way above themselves last year and they are playing to their potential this year which isn't fantastic. Armagh have a decent bunch of players who playing at the top of their game could probably squeeze an All Ireland Semi Final out of their game but that would be the height of it I imagine.
Surely that's the definition of a top 6 side. Making AI quarters and with a kind draw maybe a semi?
Although POR seems like a decent fella and has undoubtedly done his best it would be better all round if Armagh start with a clean slate next year.
Despite what some think we are not overflowing with top class players. We have a few of these but there are a few who are living off former glories and a few who have had more than enough chances.
There needs to be some new thinking next year with hopefully a few of the minors from the last few years brought through.
With the right manager and structure in place we could be a top 8 side on a consistent basis. Someone mentioned how fluid Tyrone looked going forward but it is only a few weeks since Derry looked the same against Armagh (not to mention Monaghan last year).
Quote from: Orangemac on July 28, 2011, 10:50:51 PM
Although POR seems like a decent fella and has undoubtedly done his best it would be better all round if Armagh start with a clean slate next year.
Despite what some think we are not overflowing with top class players. We have a few of these but there are a few who are living off former glories and a few who have had more than enough chances.
There needs to be some new thinking next year with hopefully a few of the minors from the last few years brought through.
With the right manager and structure in place we could be a top 8 side on a consistent basis. Someone mentioned how fluid Tyrone looked going forward but it is only a few weeks since Derry looked the same against Armagh (not to mention Monaghan last year).
Best post ive seen on the matter yet!!
I'd certainly like to see 5 or 6 of that minor team being introduced and given a chance in the league under new management preferably. We aren't in transition we are in stagnation.
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 28, 2011, 10:52:47 PM
Quote from: stew on July 28, 2011, 08:02:25 PM
A semi final, there is not a man in the country could coach this current squad to an AI semi final not one.
For goodness sake, an over hyped and generally ordinary Down team managed to work its way to an AI final last year on the basis of surprise, a good draw in the qualifiers and their share of good fortune.
That's just bitterness. Down were better than over-hyped and ordinary last year. Down played some lovely flowing football and deserved to be in the final. Don't forget we had to beat the All-Ireland champions to get there. But yes the draw worked out well, only having to play Kerry and Kildare to get to the final and with such a draw Armagh could easily attain similar results
It is true that Armagh have enough talent to make a team that would be capable of getting to a semi-final or even a final with a good draw. Instead of Tyrone, Armagh could easily have faced Leitrim, then maybe Derry (who were now depleted by Bradley's loss). That would have put you in an All-Ireland quarter final, which could well have been against a Mayo team you have already beaten. So yes it is silly to say that no one could get Armagh to a semi-final.
But it is hard to see Armagh beating Cork or Kerry. They are currently ahead by a measure of all other teams in the country and it would take a very lucky day for someone to beat them.
In fairness to Down they fully deserved their place in the AIF last year. Beating Kerry and Kildare is no mean feat. Down really hit a rich vein of form when it mattered and got to the final on merit IMO.
The next Armagh manager will suffer a similar fate. The reality is that Armagh had their most successful period with a certain group of talented footballers. While new faces came in they were very gradual and failed to replace those currently there ( rightly so) and unfortunatley the leaders all left the stage at a similar time. The likelyhood of replacing with like for like and experience is impossible. They are in a period of rebuilding and it cant be done overnight, nor maynot be achieved to a level that resembles what has gone on before.
Biggest difference i see is that the playing personel are not as good, dont have the same level of experience however the expectation levels have remained relatively unchanged.
It may be sometime before Armagh are challenging for senior national titles.
Quote from: mackers on July 28, 2011, 12:25:17 PM
I don't understand some Armagh posters' attitude to Kildare's quality. Grossly unfair. Don't want to sound patronising DH but I really hope ye boys win it and if you do it won't be solely down to Geezer, he has an excellent panel of players.
I agree Kildare have a good squad at the moment, certainly better than Armagh and McGeeney has them working, I hope they lift Sam. i also believe that there is better talent out there in Armagh, I see Tasker scored 1-5 in a club game.
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 29, 2011, 04:55:56 PM
Quote from: mackers on July 28, 2011, 12:25:17 PM
I don't understand some Armagh posters' attitude to Kildare's quality. Grossly unfair. Don't want to sound patronising DH but I really hope ye boys win it and if you do it won't be solely down to Geezer, he has an excellent panel of players.
I agree Kildare have a good squad at the moment, certainly better than Armagh and McGeeney has them working, I hope they lift Sam. i also believe that there is better talent out there in Armagh, I see Tasker scored 1-5 in a club game.
Don't think Tasker's name should be mentioned re Armagh senior team, from what I gather his attitude leaves a lot to be desired for Cullyhanna never mind intercounty. Just read over on Orchardcounty there that Ryan Rafferty of Granemore has scored 13-6 so far this year, he may well be worth a look at.
I think with the amount of AI winners in the Armagh panel that we are punching below our weight under the current management. Need someone who the players will run through brick walls for. We may not win Sam again but to be challenging at provincial and QF level is imo a realistic ambition.
I'm not from Armagh but I honestly believe Armagh have some of the best players in Ulster and potentially the best panel. Despite that they have been in the doldrums for 2 years now. This is severe under achievement in any mans language. Paddy is a true gael, a pure gent, a former player... but has been shown to be a below average manager at the top level. If the Armagh county board give him another year (and I think they will) it will be a poor and cowardly decision and certainly not in the best interest of the Armagh senior team.
Does today's result change either a) the chances of Geezer replacing POR in the near future or b) the number of posters who would like to see that change?
13 months ago we beat Donegal off the pitch, shows you the difference a good manager can make.
the manager makes no difference arguement has been destroyed by jim mcguinness and donegal. o'rourke has to go and thats the main point. between himself and peter mc donnell the last few years have been wasted by two men that simply were not up to the job. also the coach sweet jeez we pass the ball backward more now than forward. too much deadwood on the CB no one in our club wants to attend the meetings because they are pure crap.
Someone asked for the county board:
Here's our elected members:
President - John O'Reilly
Chairman - Paul Duggan
Vice Chair - Eddie Hughes
Secretary - Patrick Og Nugent
Assistant Sec - Micky McGivern
Treasurer - Peader Murray
Assistant T - Gerard O'Boyle
Development Officer - Brian Smyth
Youth Officer - Tom Morgan
Irish Officer - Peter Murphy
PRO - Joe Jordan
Ulster Council Delegate - Eddie Hughes
Central Council Delegate - Jarlath Burns
Games & Coaching - Martin Kelly
Primary School - Paul Hart
Referees Admin - Dessie McDonnell
Players injury scheme - Micky McGivern
CCC Chairman - Paul McArdle
CCC Secretary - Seamus McDonagh
I'm not going to list the minor board or each club delegate. If you need to know ask someone on your own committee for a look at this year's fixture & information booklet.
Quote from: lawnseed on July 31, 2011, 04:32:13 PM
the manager makes no difference arguement has been destroyed by jim mcguinness and donegal. o'rourke has to go and thats the main point. between himself and peter mc donnell the last few years have been wasted by two men that simply were not up to the job. also the coach sweet jeez we pass the ball backward more now than forward. too much deadwood on the CB no one in our club wants to attend the meetings because they are pure crap.
I would accept that what Jim McGuinness has done this year has made me revisit my stance on this debate. However I'm still not won over. Jim McGuinness has done wonders to date, but I think he has also had that priceless gift that everyone in football needs - luck. I've no problem saying fortune favours the brave, but on many another day they'd have been beat out the gate by Tyrone and would have faced a tricky trip to Longford. They got the run of the decisions against Derry and Kildare (and that does not mean they were undeserving of their victories).
Similarly this time last year, Wee James was being touted as the best young manager in Ireland, as Down rode their luck and came within a whisker of an All Ireland - what would Wee James' stock be now in such a debate?
McGuinness has done wonders at Donegal, and they are enjoying that wee bit of luck they mightn't have had in the past. But that still does not conclusively prove that we should change, particularly if our options are limited by other considerations! ;)
Donegal might have been beaten by Tyrone and the disallowed goal certainly saved their bacon against Kildare. But even having won Division 2 and being competitive with Tyrone was a massive improvement from their performances against Armagh last year.
Compare Roscommon now with when we played them in League in Cross' in 2008, for another example. Have we developed since that game?
Football is 80% in the head.
Forget style of play or tactics, Armagh have not been playing like a team with any sort of confidence or belief, bar the Down game. And even then I reckon that much of that was down to sheer hatred.
POR out!
Jim McGuinness is irrelevant to any argument, POR is clearly not the man for the job. There's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
Jim McGuinness is irrelevant to any argument, POR is clearly not the man for the job. There's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
whats the vibe from the players anyone got any info. they cannot be happy
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
POR is clearly not the man for the job.
And I personally don't think he is either - what I'm arguing is that many of those being touted for the job are going to be unavailable for one reason or another, and given what we currently have I am not so sure a new manager would achieve an awful lot more anyway.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 01, 2011, 10:56:19 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
JThere's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
Who is the new chairman?
Paul Duggan
jeez lads nearly every player on the panel has an all ireland medal at some level surely we should be doing better than taking two goes to beat wicklow. they nearly took us in fortress athletic grounds thats not good enough. theres no structure to our play the players are slow and unsure of their roles. the derry game is the one that sticks out por simply couldnt set up the defence to deal with owen bradley... one player! all he had to do was revert to the blanket and leave stevie and jamie up front on their own.
we've got brilliant footballers all over the pitch imo
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
Jim McGuinness is irrelevant to any argument, POR is clearly not the man for the job. There's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
Serious question here why would McGeeney not take the job. Spoke to an Armagh man on Saturday who told me he had wanted Kildare to win against Donegal because of McGeeney. I asked him why he was not manager of his own county team he mumbled something about the county board and walked away. I dont understand the logic of Armagh men supporting Kildare because of McGeeney's involvement.
Quote from: reddgnhand on August 02, 2011, 12:02:07 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
Jim McGuinness is irrelevant to any argument, POR is clearly not the man for the job. There's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
Serious question here why would McGeeney not take the job. Spoke to an Armagh man on Saturday who told me he had wanted Kildare to win against Donegal because of McGeeney. I asked him why he was not manager of his own county team he mumbled something about the county board and walked away. I dont understand the logic of Armagh men supporting Kildare because of McGeeney's involvement.
hes a legend and all irl winning armagh capt also armagh dont have baggage with kildare so he can enjoy sucess in kildare without being considered a traitor. also many armagh supporters see keiran as being robbed of the armagh job together with paul grimley so they want to see him do well more or less as a poke in the eye to the county board who passed over him.
Quote from: lawnseed on August 02, 2011, 12:13:25 AM
Quote from: reddgnhand on August 02, 2011, 12:02:07 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
Jim McGuinness is irrelevant to any argument, POR is clearly not the man for the job. There's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
Serious question here why would McGeeney not take the job. Spoke to an Armagh man on Saturday who told me he had wanted Kildare to win against Donegal because of McGeeney. I asked him why he was not manager of his own county team he mumbled something about the county board and walked away. I dont understand the logic of Armagh men supporting Kildare because of McGeeney's involvement.
hes a legend and all irl winning armagh capt also armagh dont have baggage with kildare so he can enjoy sucess in kildare without being considered a traitor. also many armagh supporters see keiran as being robbed of the armagh job together with paul grimley so they want to see him do well more or less as a poke in the eye to the county board who passed over him.
Even if that means their own team suffering? Surely not? Being on the county board is not abirthright. Why dont the Armagh folk get rid of the current board if the vast majority want them out?
Quote from: reddgnhand on August 02, 2011, 12:18:39 AM
Being on the county board is not abirthright. Why dont the Armagh folk get rid of the current board if the vast majority want them out?
Because for the majority it would mean having to get off their collective asses and go to their Club AGM. Much easier to give off anonymously, on the internet.
Someone asked about the players' views and they are well established at this stage. The usual danger of discussing them somewhere like here is that it carries no weight of truth. For what its worth, the players - with one notable exception - are coimpletely disillusioned with the management team as a whole and very unsure of the motivation/capacity of the executive to address it. The fear is that rufus' attitude would be prevelent among the king makers and they are stuck in a regime not motivated to change.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 02, 2011, 11:39:22 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 11:58:54 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 01, 2011, 10:56:19 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
JThere's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
Who is the new chairman?
Paul's not new to the job, he has been the man in charge for all of POR's reign and has done nothing to remedy the situation. I would have thought he would have been a man of action and would not have suffered fools gladly either on the Board or in county management.
Paul duggan was not the chairman whenever Paddy O'Rourke got appointed. What really was he meant to do in the meantime. POR deserved the 2nd year at the job and he could hardly have done anything to get rid of him midway through a season. If there is no action taken now then then there would have to be questions asked of the current CB as its obv a change has to be made!!
Quote from: reddgnhand on August 02, 2011, 12:02:07 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
Jim McGuinness is irrelevant to any argument, POR is clearly not the man for the job. There's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
Serious question here why would McGeeney not take the job. Spoke to an Armagh man on Saturday who told me he had wanted Kildare to win against Donegal because of McGeeney. I asked him why he was not manager of his own county team he mumbled something about the county board and walked away. I dont understand the logic of Armagh men supporting Kildare because of McGeeney's involvement.
Kieran McGeeney is a legend in Armagh, a lot of it down to his willpower, self belief and obsession but a lot of it created by the media as well. With AOR and McGeeney involved with Kildare it is natural that some would like to see them do well. McGeeney's not being involved with Armagh is more to do with finance than anything although our County Board has a dislike of managers whoi don't play the game, ie give it a fig leaf in terms of who is running the county.
Quote from: reddgnhand on August 02, 2011, 12:18:39 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 02, 2011, 12:13:25 AM
Quote from: reddgnhand on August 02, 2011, 12:02:07 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
Jim McGuinness is irrelevant to any argument, POR is clearly not the man for the job. There's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
Serious question here why would McGeeney not take the job. Spoke to an Armagh man on Saturday who told me he had wanted Kildare to win against Donegal because of McGeeney. I asked him why he was not manager of his own county team he mumbled something about the county board and walked away. I dont understand the logic of Armagh men supporting Kildare because of McGeeney's involvement.
hes a legend and all irl winning armagh capt also armagh dont have baggage with kildare so he can enjoy sucess in kildare without being considered a traitor. also many armagh supporters see keiran as being robbed of the armagh job together with paul grimley so they want to see him do well more or less as a poke in the eye to the county board who passed over him.
Even if that means their own team suffering? Surely not? Being on the county board is not abirthright. Why dont the Armagh folk get rid of the current board if the vast majority want them out?
Exactly the point I have been making, but it is one thing coming on here and slagging off the County Board but sure don't ask us to give up our time to do the work the CB does.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 02, 2011, 11:39:22 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 11:58:54 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 01, 2011, 10:56:19 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
JThere's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
Who is the new chairman?
Paul Duggan
Paul's not new to the job, he has been the man in charge for all of POR's reign and has done nothing to remedy the situation. I would have thought he would have been a man of action and would not have suffered fools gladly either on the Board or in county management.
Paul hasn't finished his first year in the Chair, POR is in his second year, so incorrecto. Hopefully we will see some action then as POR's tenure must be at the very least up for review.
Quote from: bennydorano on August 02, 2011, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 02, 2011, 11:39:22 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 11:58:54 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 01, 2011, 10:56:19 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 01, 2011, 09:45:23 PM
JThere's no chance of McGeeney coming, there's a better chance of Grimley coming in now with the new Chairman. However I reckon that''s wishful thinking anyway as I reckon POR will be back unfortunately.
Who is the new chairman?
Paul Duggan
Paul's not new to the job, he has been the man in charge for all of POR's reign and has done nothing to remedy the situation. I would have thought he would have been a man of action and would not have suffered fools gladly either on the Board or in county management.
Paul hasn't finished his first year in the Chair, POR is in his second year, so incorrecto. Hopefully we will see some action then as POR's tenure must be at the very least up for review.
correct benny
can`t see mc geeney coming to armagh but wouldnt be surprised to see him get the dublin job when they fall short this year
paul grimley, ::) oisin and an other might be an option,
heard mc shane taking the u-21s ths year as well
I'm led to believe that POR has already met with the county sponsor last week so I'm presuming that he will remain in the job for next year. Surely if he was to be relieved of his position he would have been replaced by now before the upcoming club c'ships.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 02, 2011, 11:39:22 AM
Paul's not new to the job, he has been the man in charge for all of POR's reign and has done nothing to remedy the situation. I would have thought he would have been a man of action and would not have suffered fools gladly either on the Board or in county management.
I thought myself that Paul had been in post over the duration of POR's tenancy. That said, I still think your criticism of Paul is unfair. My impression was that Paul was motivated to stand for office by the shambles that was the last managerial process, but became Chair when POR was already appointed. He had to give the fella a chance - he could hardly gas him as soon as he was in, and with promotion achieved in the first year, and silver on the sideboard, another year (his second) was guaranteed.
As for the future, I make the point again, it is entirely possible that many of the names being bandied about here - even Armagh men - are out of reach.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 02, 2011, 03:58:11 PM
I'm led to believe that POR has already met with the county sponsor last week so I'm presuming that he will remain in the job for next year. Surely if he was to be relieved of his position he would have been replaced by now before the upcoming club c'ships.
doubt the county board sponsor makes the call on management ::)
Quote from: rootthemout on August 02, 2011, 10:44:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 02, 2011, 03:58:11 PM
I'm led to believe that POR has already met with the county sponsor last week so I'm presuming that he will remain in the job for next year. Surely if he was to be relieved of his position he would have been replaced by now before the upcoming club c'ships.
doubt the county board sponsor makes the call on management ::)
How naive are you? He may not make the final call but I'll gaurantee if he wanted POR gone then that would be that, simple economics.
Quote from: rootthemout on August 02, 2011, 10:44:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 02, 2011, 03:58:11 PM
I'm led to believe that POR has already met with the county sponsor last week so I'm presuming that he will remain in the job for next year. Surely if he was to be relieved of his position he would have been replaced by now before the upcoming club c'ships.
doubt the county board sponsor makes the call on management ::)
I presume thats a tongue in cheek comment since its widely known that the sponsor had a big say in the appointment of the last manager.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 03, 2011, 12:15:59 PM
Quote from: rootthemout on August 02, 2011, 10:44:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 02, 2011, 03:58:11 PM
I'm led to believe that POR has already met with the county sponsor last week so I'm presuming that he will remain in the job for next year. Surely if he was to be relieved of his position he would have been replaced by now before the upcoming club c'ships.
doubt the county board sponsor makes the call on management ::)
I presume thats a tongue in cheek comment since its widely known that the sponsor had a big say in the appointment of the last manager.
and in other things I'm told
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 03, 2011, 09:01:35 AM
Quote from: rootthemout on August 02, 2011, 10:44:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 02, 2011, 03:58:11 PM
I'm led to believe that POR has already met with the county sponsor last week so I'm presuming that he will remain in the job for next year. Surely if he was to be relieved of his position he would have been replaced by now before the upcoming club c'ships.
doubt the county board sponsor makes the call on management ::)
How naive are you? He may not make the final call but I'll gaurantee if he wanted POR gone then that would be that, simple economics.
touble is not many people want to spend their money sponsoring a team thats not playing well. how many armagh supporters actually buy their oil from morgan fuels.. and how many would buy it if they thought morgan was ruling the roost.. the last four years have been wasted the team have been unwatchable but for a couple of games in this years championship time to take it serious and get someone in who can structure the team and motivate the players
Quote from: lawnseed on August 03, 2011, 08:29:10 PM
the last four years have been wasted
And Joe's last year could be added to that, and indeed an argument could be made for his second last year (2006). That's at least five years where I felt that the team has been going nowhere, with no long term strategy (in terms of selections / gameplan) apparent. Over that period, one or two wonderful opportunities on the managment position were spurned, and I would now guess are gone for the foreseeable future. It is against this back drop that the frenzy to get rid of POR is taking place, meaning that many on the wish list would be unavailable.
Change for the sake of change then?
I thought Paul was in charge of the appointments committee that appointed POR. Regardless I think he's done a lot if good for Armagh the last couple of years. POR is obviously a great man and a true gent and was a fantastic footballer who we in Armagh owe a debt of gratitude to for having done the unpaid work he has done the last two years. That said for me his performances in the line haven't been good enough and we are wasting/ have wasted a very talented squad. For that reason and that reason alone I would like a new manager appointed.
Quote from: David McKeown on August 04, 2011, 10:45:14 AM
I thought Paul was in charge of the appointments committee that appointed POR. Regardless I think he's done a lot if good for Armagh the last couple of years. POR is obviously a great man and a true gent and was a fantastic footballer who we in Armagh owe a debt of gratitude to for having done the unpaid work he has done the last two years. That said for me his performances in the line haven't been good enough and we are wasting/ have wasted a very talented squad. For that reason and that reason alone I would like a new manager appointed.
No way is he not getting anything for this job!
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 04, 2011, 11:41:33 AM
Prophetic post from one of the elder statesmen of this Board (http://www.armaghgaa.net/forum/f5/paddy-orourke-new-armagh-gaelic-athletic-association-senior-manager-234/#post1205)
Not often he is so right, if he could see it how the hell did it happen :'(
I stand corrected on the Chair then.
As I said already there surely has to be a review at the end of POR's 'contract' which is now. Hopefully there'll be some action. I just cant subscribe to the theory that we should accept another year of this shite just because our 'first or second choice' isn't available, there are plenty of people about who wouldn't cost the earth and might acheive something if given the chance, McShane, Hughes (Ogs), AOR even. I do actually think Grimley is within reach if JK still isn't bending ears. Someone should talk to Hughie.
Quote from: bennydorano on August 04, 2011, 08:49:14 PM
I stand corrected on the Chair then.
As I said already there surely has to be a review at the end of POR's 'contract' which is now. Hopefully there'll be some action. I just cant subscribe to the theory that we should accept another year of this shite just because our 'first or second choice' isn't available, there are plenty of people about who wouldn't cost the earth and might acheive something if given the chance, McShane, Hughes (Ogs), AOR even. I do actually think Grimley is within reach if JK still isn't bending ears. Someone should talk to Hughie.
Am I the only one who thinks that no matter how much money Hughie pours in, he should not dictate to the County Board. I would be surprised if this is not the case...but open to correction, it's plain wrong...no?
No it's not right & his influence is undoubtedly exaggerated, but he who pays the piper calls the tune - to some extent
I think there needs to be movement on this sooner rather than later. the first step is to remove the incumbants - not a sinner would declare an interest with a management team - any management team - still in place.
o rourke has been offered another year by the county board :-\
Quote from: naka on August 05, 2011, 12:39:03 PM
o rourke has been offered another year by the county board :-\
That was always going to be the case given results, I'd say though there were no other takers at the moment anyway. That said your club delegates can overturn this decision as has happened elsewhere.
Thats certainly not what i've heard but maybe you have a link to the story naka?
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 05, 2011, 12:49:33 PM
Quote from: naka on August 05, 2011, 12:39:03 PM
o rourke has been offered another year by the county board :-\
That was always going to be the case given results, I'd say though there were no other takers at the moment anyway. That said your club delegates can overturn this decision as has happened elsewhere.
If you offer POR a years extension, how the hell do you know if there were any other takers or not? McGeeney surely would be ripe for picking now having had 3 years with Kildare over him. Aidan O'Rourke is another prime candidate. Armagh have more good home grown candidates than any other county, yet they re-appoint a man who has proved he isnt up to the job!
Quote from: DuffleKing on August 05, 2011, 01:43:37 PM
Thats certainly not what i've heard but maybe you have a link to the story naka?
was texted by one of the guys at club and then rang same guy( used to be our chairman we are south armagh club) he told me a done deal , dont doubt him but he may be wrong.
Fcuk sake....the "Judge" would be a better manager.
Agent O'Rourke completes his mission then ::)
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 04, 2011, 11:41:33 AM
Prophetic post from one of the elder statesmen of this Board (http://www.armaghgaa.net/forum/f5/paddy-orourke-new-armagh-gaelic-athletic-association-senior-manager-234/#post1205)
More crystal ball gazing from back then;
QuoteArmagh's internal strife - Orchard hit by a classic tale of forbidden fruit
Ewan MacKenna
Armagh football is sick and it has been for a little while now. This week's ambiguous statements from former manager Peter McDonnell may be the first public admission that something is wrong, but those close to this side will have known that for some time now. This season the county found themselves with a manager lacking confidence, a team lacking anywhere near the talent that had gone before, a trophy that was never going to be defended and a county board unwilling to take its share of the blame in all of this. Yet worse still, the Armagh panel had reverted to the geographical cliques and frustrations that once blighted the county. Catastrophe was imminent.
To this day, people underestimate what Brian McAlinden and Brian Canavan did for Armagh. Their Ulster wins may have been acknowledged briefly before such success became normality but what they faced when taking up the role as joint managers is often forgotten. Many of the players from that golden era of football in the county talk about the first step on the way to an All Ireland being a smoothing out of relations before there were trophies. That Joe Kernan took over a side that was no longer splintered is a testament to how the two Brians brought Armagh together.
However the events of the past week have shown that Armagh football has reverted to type and while talk of leaked tactics (believed to be from a well-known substitute but unable to be named by McDonnell due to a lack of hard proof) emerging from within the side are alarming, the underlying reason is the camp is again divided and members of the set up are annoyed. Until that is sorted out, this is a side going nowhere.
Losing McDonnell may not have been a bad starting point. Any manager would have struggled to compete after losing so many quality players but while this made it difficult, the lurking shadow of his appointment made the position untenable. That was far from his own making but ever since he took the job late in 2007, his time was ticking as the majority of clubs in the county never wanted him there in the first place.
Take a glimpse back at the trophy presentation from the 2008 Ulster final. Accepting the cup was Paul McGrane, a leader off the pitch and a player on it that could cover for the increasing limitations around him. On the steps was Peter McDonnell, a manger too insecure to thoroughly enjoy his finest achievement and who was weighed down from the minute he took over the county. McGrane tried to involve his manager by acknowledging Peter the Great is his speech. There was little response. The manner of his appointment was something McDonnell could never climb above. For this the county board must take responsibility just as they should for exiling key men within the county that are unlikely to go near the job on this occasion.
McDonnell was never going to achieve what went before as more and more senior players headed for retirement but his problem was surviving without those senior players. And when they went, so did his prospects. But what was most irritating to Armagh this year was not losing to Tyrone and Monaghan after extra-time - in normal circumstances a departure after such results would seem harsh - rather the lack of growth and fruition that had taken place since the loss to Wexford in last year's quarter-finals. In the 10 months between championship exits, Armagh suffered the same problems on the field. Nothing had been learned.
And those on-field problems magnified by the off-field back stabbing is why the next man is so important. Just like McAlinden and Canavan were so important to any success long after they had gone because of their dealings with the internal strife in the county, history will repeat itself here. After winning the Ulster title, the Armagh minor side is already favourite for this year's All Ireland but whoever takes the reigns needs to make sure they have a steady platform to advance to. And that's all that can be expected because at present this is a senior side bustling with good players, but very few great ones.
Success will not be associated with the next Armagh manager. Stability must be.
July 26, 2009
Comments
#1 Benny Asquith commented, on July 27, 2009 at 8:42 a.m.:
The County Board's refusal to face down the petty jealousies and small minded agendas of a few influential people back in 2007, set in motion a sequence of events that has culminated in this terrible situation.
The opportunity now presents itself to make a fresh start and learn from previous mistakes. This though would necessarily mean the County Board acknowledging these mistakes, and reversing a decision that was taken two years earlier, when they refused to listen to the wishes of a majority of the Clubs, and install Paul Grimley as manager.
They now need to consider what is in the interests of Armagh football, and not what is in the interests of those wielding power.
Historical precedent however would suggest that there is little appetite for humble pie in the Armagh corridors of power, and it is likely that another opportunity will be spurned.
Good article by Peter Mackem this week in the observer. Talks a lot of sense on the bigger thinking thats needed, rather than focusing solely on the manager.
Quote from: Armamike on August 06, 2011, 04:26:14 PM
Good article by Peter Mackem this week in the observer. Talks a lot of sense on the bigger thinking thats needed, rather than focusing solely on the manager.
What were the main points?
Can anyone confirm if Paddy O'Rourke has been offered another year in the Armagh job?
Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2011, 08:02:45 PM
Can anyone confirm if Paddy O'Rourke has been offered another year in the Armagh job?
Speaking to our club reps who were at the cb meeting when he was appointed 2 years ago, they are both certain he was appointed for a 3 year term so he'd need to be sacked otherwise he will be there next year. He doesn't need formally reappointed.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 06, 2011, 09:00:02 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on August 06, 2011, 08:40:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 06, 2011, 08:02:45 PM
Can anyone confirm if Paddy O'Rourke has been offered another year in the Armagh job?
Speaking to our club reps who were at the cb meeting when he was appointed 2 years ago, they are both certain he was appointed for a 3 year term so he'd need to be sacked otherwise he will be there next year. He doesn't need formally reappointed.
In what successful organisation in the 21st century is there no review of progress over the previous twelve months?
Governments?
J
Quote from: ck on August 06, 2011, 06:56:23 PM
Quote from: Armamike on August 06, 2011, 04:26:14 PM
Good article by Peter Mackem this week in the observer. Talks a lot of sense on the bigger thinking thats needed, rather than focusing solely on the manager.
What were the main points?
Basically that the cb needs to rethink the structures around the county team and look at new ways of training and system of play. Argues that too much onus is on one person, ie the manager whereas the environment needs to be right. Makes the point too that underage structures are good and that the senior set up isnt at the same level.
Micky Harte might fancy a new challenge!
Quote from: ck on August 06, 2011, 06:56:23 PM
Quote from: Armamike on August 06, 2011, 04:26:14 PM
Good article by Peter Mackem this week in the observer. Talks a lot of sense on the bigger thinking thats needed, rather than focusing solely on the manager.
What were the main points?
Armagh must act now or face total decline By Peter Makem There's a difference between the problem of Armagh senior football and the problem of the current management.
In an article two years ago and largely repeated this time last year, I proposed that whoever became the new Armagh senior manager was on a loser if totally fresh foundations were not laid beforehand. I proposed that the problem was bigger than any manager and we were fooling ourselves unless competent people within the county sat down and took long and serious stock of the situation to undo the decline that had set in since the demise of the All-Ireland team around 2004-2005. We needed to go back behind the starting line, create a whole new system, develop players in a new manner and push back the boundaries of the game even further.
I also pointed out in last year's article that if the above development was not undertaken, we would be no further on in twelve months time, nor in the year after nor the year following that and so on. In other words the decline would continue, and that we would end up where we were in the mid-nineties and indeed back to the mid-seventies. That's exactly where we are now.
The past few championships have seen the tide go out as far as it did in those days. But even then, it was only marginally a problem of a manager. As a general rule going away back into the sixties, the managers were competent people who knew their football, Paddy O'Hara, Jimmy Whan, Mal McEvoy and so on and there were plenty of good and very good players around. That was not the problem. There was nothing to manage. There was no structure or order of things, and it was a good night when five or six turned up for training at all – with the dressing room before a match full of strangers to each other.
By structure does not mean an assembly of training and weight "specialists", specialist coaches, psychologists, stats people, and so on. Armagh has all that now and is going nowhere. In fact every county in Ireland has such an array of staff but again, it makes no difference to the vast majority. All the psychology in the world, all the weights programming and huddles is useless if the player doesn't know what to do when he gets the ball, or where to take a pass. All the physical fitness in the world is useless in the long run if players have no system to perform in.
Structure is a basic simple thing and the approach to it will vary from county to county depending on how high they genuinely aim. To achieve a new structure in Armagh – as the old one is dead and gone – it means first of all clearing the decks totally of everybody involved including the players and management setup. Next, people of experience and thought in the county will sit down and work out how the game can be brought to a new level through a new system of play. They will then carefully select players of potential – some of whom are already on the panel – and fit these into an effective system of football where everybody knows their role and all it geared toward the maximum scoring facility. It will take five or six months from now to do this preparatory work involving setting up a system of individual training to bring the player toward a new level of physical and mental ability – but only after he knows his role in the grand design. The bringing in of a manger is part of this new structure and system, in other words, he is the pilot of the new ship that is built.
CANNOT HIDE BEHIND EXCUSES But although there has been no development of the Armagh team under his management, Paddy O'Rourke is not the source of our ills. The problem is not managerial but structural. Paddy had limited success with Down and there was no evidence that he would have any more with Armagh, especially an Armagh with little momentum left. The mindset that made the appointment instead of concentrating on the creation of a whole new system and structure is the problem. Armagh were not facing up to the deep realities of what was wrong and instead threw the job at somebody and get that much off their backs. But that merely of course, merely deepened the problem.
The real issue at present is the very mindset that allows the current situation to continue. All the underage work – which is very substantial and well organised including the Minor achievements of recent years – disintegrates when things reach senior level because the very thing it aspires to, that is, the senior team, is a void, emptiness. There are good structures everywhere in Armagh except at the very place when they are most required for ultimate development. It's like a hypothetical system in education where children go to primary school into secondary, get their 'A' Levels or other qualifications but find the Third Level institutions like Queen's and Jordanstown no longer offer degrees.
Accordingly there is a real sense that O'Rourke is a scapegoat and a cover for deeper failures in Armagh to address the points I mention. The bottom line, and it seems to be obvious to everybody, is that the County Board simply cannot continue with present setup or dress it up in some other way as this is not facing up to the reality of the problem.
Decline sets in to very institution and it goes on and on unless deliberately stopped. This is why every so often, a totally new momentum has to be created, a new and original system thought out and the whole train set in fresh motion. To realistically aim for the Sam Maguire in the near future Armagh requires the creation of a team to do extensive groundwork as indicated in new ways of team building and training before even thinking of a manger. As things stand, it doesn't matter who we appoint as there is no system to manage. But under a new system, the appointment is critical.
What is happening is all wrong. Promising players throughout the League have just vanished from the scene, one after the other. Our talented midfielders have not progressed at all nor is there proper cover in this department. Younger players from the Minor grade have not appeared. The team keeps changing from game to game and Stephen McDonnell, lone survivor of 2002 and one of Armagh's three or four greatest footballers of all time, is still the central figure on the team. Nobody appears to know what anybody else is doing on the field and things change from game to game. This is all because a total halt was not called to the drift some years ago, and a totally new system introduced.
Talk of maintaining Division One status as a sign of progress is nonsense. Many of the teams in Division One because they can stay there without breaking sweat in a competition that in reality is a series of challenge games that confers no status at all. It is not like the English Premiership where the league is the championship for the GAA; the All-Ireland champions could have Division Two status. If Armagh's Division One status is a sign of progress why are we collapsing in the championship?
Nor can we hide behind the usual waffle that "the players are just not there." Only last year Armagh gave Donegal a bad beating at Crossmaglen, a Donegal side that contained twelve of the players who are now in the All-Ireland semi-final. I met Brian McEniff over month ago in Bundoran and he said that Donegal were now a very different proposition and was confident they would win in Ulster at least, that Jim McGuinness had restructured the whole scene, that Donegal went back behind to the drawing board an took stock as to what had been going wrong for the past nineteen years and moved in a new direction.
It's never a question of the talent available. It's what you do with the talent available and Armagh are drifting year by year toward disintegration at senior level – not because of lack of talent – but because of lack of organisation.
Tyrone had players as good in the past as now but they were never remotely as organised. Their system has remained unchanged for the past ten yeas and new players just fit into it. Kevin Heffernan won an All-Ireland with Dublin in 1974 in his first year as manager with a group of players who struggled earlier in the National League of that year. He created a system and moulded the talents available into a superb team where not six months previous people were saying that "the players were simply not there". From a superficial perspective it always appears that success comes because a group of talented players arrive on the scene at the same time and the logic of tis is that you have to wait on this to happen for success. All the evidence points to the opposite. Success comes through the intensity of organising the planning and in the case of teams who have no tradition; it involves creating a totally new system of play and approach.
Armagh did this to win the All-Ireland in 2002 – which was perfected by Tyrone to win their three All-Irelands – and adopted by every other successful team including Kerry and taken to a new intensity recently by Donegal.
The proof of this is the great innovation by Down in the late fifties, a county that had scant tradition at senior level and whose mentors in 1957 decided to stop waiting on the fates and take things into their own hands by working out how to create an All-Ireland winning team. They build the players available into an idea, into a totally innovate structure of training and teamwork so that it appeared in hindsight that Down were lucky that a group of exceptional players just happened to arrive at the one time. But the truth is that there was only a blank sheet in 1957 when the new structures were set up and not an All-Ireland winning player in sight. It was a supreme victory of organisation and innovation.
However, Down went into a slow decline as the sixties progressed culminating in a serious defeat by Cavan in the Ulster final of 1967. It was at this point that mentors decided to sit down and take stock and find out what had gone wrong and to end the drift. So they brought out the blank sheet again, took back the best of the old team of 60/61 merged with largely members of the Minor team of two years previous and began a fresh momentum with a new system of play to end the drift. The following year they won the National League and the Sam Maguire.
COUNTY BOARD NO CHOICE This is a much darker hour for the Armagh senior team than we imagine. The truth is this, that the powers that be have no choice but to do something radical regarding the critical situation at present, and a patchwork job, which is always the temptation, will merely mock the present generation of up and coming footballers who want to represent us at the highest level of completion.
To repeat, Armagh will continue to drift at senior level, moving deeper and deeper into the fog of the bad old times unless we go back behind the starting line with a blank sheet and work out a totally new enterprise. There is absolutely no hope without this.
We did it twice before in the mid seventies and the mid nineties and we have a solemn duty to do it again for the dignity and pride of Armagh and for the thousands of supporters and the new generation of footballers who all long for a return to the glorious days.
INSPIRED I am always inspired by the heroic figure of former chairman Tommy Lynch back in 1974 when single handily, lit Horatio on the bridge, he held Armagh together in their darkest hour, and initiated the revival of the county team in one of the great acts of leadership in the county's history.
Conversely, I always feel bad when I think of the Armagh team of 1961 whom I saw as a boy narrowly losing the Ulster final 2-10 to 1-10 to All-Ireland champions Down at Casement Park, and still cannot forget the lost potential of that outstanding group of footballers who had the class to be All-Ireland champions the following year instead of being allowed to slide into oblivion.
I remember giving a talk at the O'Fiaich Library a few years ago to a group that included many of this team. I had one question for them. What happened the following year? Why did they disintegrate whereas they should have been primed to win the 1962 All-Ireland which was there for the taking? No one was saying much, but the real reason I suggested was that they were allowed to disintegrate. No genuine effort was made to sit everybody down, take stock of what went wrong, work out deeply what was needed in the team and plan a new assault on the coming championships. I looked down the hall and saw Kevin Halfpenny, Jimmy Whan, Harry Loughran, Johnny McGeary, Harry Hoy, Felix McKnight and the others who formed that side, and one thought arrived that would not go away – "We let that generation down". I remember standing on the podium while a debate went on realising that the say was true of the Armagh senior players of the thirties and forties who did not win an Ulster title and were narrowly beaten by Cavan or Monaghan time and time again. The county let them down as well. A good measure of justice was done to the footballers of the early fifties with two Ulster's and an All-Ireland appearance and efforts made to develop the minors of '49. But the 1953 side quickly disintegrated and apart from the single promise of 1961, several generations of footballers were allowed to drift into oblivion, into a barren age that lasted a quarter of a century until the mid seventies.
So as a new generation of Armagh players begin to knock at the door of destiny, I hope that we will be true to them and that somebody down the years ahead will not sit down and lift their pen to write –
"We let that generation down".Taken from www.armaghgaa.net
When you are talking about the county board then things are not good within any given county.
The most important thing they can do at senior county level is appoint the best man possible and within financial constraints give him everything he needs. Outside of that if there aren't good enough players there won't be success.
Any county can look back on previous eras and think what might have been. There are good enough players in Armagh to be consistently in and around the top 10 and wins at national club, senior and underage intercounty level in the last 10/15 years mean that Armagh players will not have the inferiority complex Armagh teams had in the past.
would the two brians be up for it again... anything to get rid of por
That's an excellent article by Peter Makem who is obviously a passionate Armagh man. I would agree with a lot of what he says there and I would have been one of the guys who said we don't have enough good players to compete with the big guns. Donegal's progression from the mauling we gave them last year should act as a huge incentive for all involved with Armagh football. We have a talented bunch of players in the 18 to 21 age group and they should be used in a similar way that the 92 and 94 minor teams were used. There's a huge onus on those with the authority to make sure this group and indeed all the work that was put into these players by guys like Paul McShane isn't wasted.
Obviously not all sorted out yet.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2011/0809/armagh.html
david that is the statement he made after the tyrone game, wouldnt read too much into it, but my understanding is that the county board want a stronger backroom team to assist as many like ourselves have been unimpressed with moves etc hopefully we get j mc entee (and say oisin in) with mc shane helping .
the indo today seems to agree with this
Naka
Im kinda holding on to whatever little hope I can that the third year isn't yet guaranteed but as I have said before I will be shocked if we dont have to endure POR for one more year. On the plus side makes planning my holiday easy next year.
Quote from: mackers on August 09, 2011, 12:52:08 PM
That's an excellent article by Peter Makem who is obviously a passionate Armagh man. I would agree with a lot of what he says there and I would have been one of the guys who said we don't have enough good players to compete with the big guns. Donegal's progression from the mauling we gave them last year should act as a huge incentive for all involved with Armagh football. We have a talented bunch of players in the 18 to 21 age group and they should be used in a similar way that the 92 and 94 minor teams were used. There's a huge onus on those with the authority to make sure this group and indeed all the work that was put into these players by guys like Paul McShane isn't wasted.
It is a decent article but a bit rabble rousing. His call to effectively wipe everything out an start again is a bit naive. Armagh have decent players a good training programme, the players are fit, strong and dedicated. He is right though about a need for a system. I believe that Armagh are playing mostly instinctively and not to a defined set of instructions which encompass the play of the whole team. Every player in the Donegal side knows what every other player is meant to be doing and how that ultimately will result in their winning a game. I don't think that is true of Armagh who seem to have distinct backs and forwards units with little understanding of a combined system to interact between them.
So Armagh need a system, one which is clear and includes the responsibilities of each player on the team, one which the players can commit to and believe in. After that the players skills, fitness, and desire is more than adequate to remain a top 8 county and challenge regularly for the honours. Paddy hasn't shown so far that he wants his team to play to a single approach and steadfastly stick to it. there have been lots of changes of approach. That is not helpful and Makem is correct about that, so all it needs is to agree a definitive approach and structure every training and every game to perfecting it. But this idea of total wipe-out to be reborn like a phoenix from the ashes is a bit dramatic.
Quote from: David McKeown on August 09, 2011, 03:17:41 PM
I will be shocked if we dont have to endure POR for one more year. .
While i'm in favour of a change, he hasn't been anywhere near a disaster that leads us to enduring him. Two average seasons, nothing more, nothing less in my eyes. He isn't the man for me, but don't think he has been a disaster.
Also, cleaning house in the backround and keeping the same man in charge will not solve the issues.
Paul, you have an incredible knack of rehashing the oft repeated and glaringly obvious as your own opinion.
You're not generally too concise with it either.
heard today from a fairly good source that several decent replacements are to be approached this week informally. so thats good.. my man doesnt know if geezer was on the list.. so thats not so good. fingers crossed :-X
Quote from: lawnseed on August 09, 2011, 05:53:48 PM
heard today from a fairly good source that several decent replacements are to be approached this week informally. so thats good.. my man doesnt know if geezer was on the list.. so thats not so good. fingers crossed :-X
I would be worried about what decent is. Positive news nonetheless.
Nothing could come as a bigger shock than hearing POR got the job, bit of a JFK moment, unless Willie Frazier is appointed!
Makem rightly identifies the lack of organisation and a system of play as key in the current and recent Armagh set ups. Donegal and Dublin being timely examples of how important these factors are and how quickly results follow.
Quote from: lawnseed on August 09, 2011, 05:53:48 PM
heard today from a fairly good source that several decent replacements are to be approached this week informally. so thats good.. my man doesnt know if geezer was on the list.. so thats not so good. fingers crossed :-X
Not happy at all with that. The thing should be done right either POR is good enough to be Armagh manager and should see out at least his third year or else he isnt and should be asked to leave and a replacement appointed. This cloak and dagger stuff is infuriating and highly disrespectful. In the event none of these replacements want/are able to take the job then POR's position is untenable anyway.
If and I stress if this is true its another in a long line of balls ups by the county board
Quote from: David McKeown on August 09, 2011, 10:14:45 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 09, 2011, 05:53:48 PM
heard today from a fairly good source that several decent replacements are to be approached this week informally. so thats good.. my man doesnt know if geezer was on the list.. so thats not so good. fingers crossed :-X
Not happy at all with that. The thing should be done right either POR is good enough to be Armagh manager and should see out at least his third year or else he isnt and should be asked to leave and a replacement appointed. This cloak and dagger stuff is infuriating and highly disrespectful. In the event none of these replacements want/are able to take the job then POR's position is untenable anyway.
If and I stress if this is true its another in a long line of balls ups by the county board
So typical of our inept County Board!
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 09, 2011, 10:20:33 PM
Quote from: Armamike on August 09, 2011, 09:58:41 PM
Makem rightly identifies the lack of organisation and a system of play as key in the current and recent Armagh set ups. Donegal and Dublin being timely examples of how important these factors are and how quickly results follow.
To be fair, he is saying nothing that hasn't been said already on this thread. Where his argument falls down is that he thinks a committee is needed to bring about the change that he has identified. In the case of Dublin and Donegal it didn't take a committee, all that was needed was a good/competent manager allowed to get on with the reorganisation. The question is how to find that right man. Everyone knows that POR isn't the man for Armagh and Donegal went through a few before they got Jim McGuinness.
Agree with you on that. I think Peter Makem views the manager as just one cog and that managers come and go.
Quote from: lawnseed on August 09, 2011, 05:53:48 PM
heard today from a fairly good source that several decent replacements are to be approached this week informally. so thats good.. my man doesnt know if geezer was on the list.. so thats not so good. fingers crossed :-X
Forget about Geezer we can't afford him.
We are slagging off the CB on the word of an unkown source, if POR is being reappointed it could well be that they are looking to select a backroom team. POR may find that this makes his position untenable...maybe thats the plan?
If there is new management being spoken to then this is going against Press reports. He was on a 3 year term and it has been confirmed by the CB but I understand it still has to be apporoved by the club delegates. If people really want POR out get onto you club delegates and get him voted out at the next meeting. There is a shake up of the back room team, i have heard a few things, from solid sources, but is all rumour so will not repeat it.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 10, 2011, 09:29:32 AM
If there is new management being spoken to then this is going against Press reports. He was on a 3 year term and it has been confirmed by the CB but I understand it still has to be apporoved by the club delegates. If people really want POR out get onto you club delegates and get him voted out at the next meeting. There is a shake up of the back room team, i have heard a few things, from solid sources, but is all rumour so will not repeat it.
Thats not what I have heard I have spoken to a few delegates who are certain that as POR has a three year term any decision as to his future rests entirely with the management committee. We had that fiasco a few years back where the delegates voted for Grimley but after consultation with the constitution were told it wasnt a matter for delegates. So at this point and time I suppose its all speculation and conjecture. I dont like the idea of a backroom staff being forced on POR either. My preference is for a new manager but the whole thing should be done right. If POR is to stay on then he and the county board should decide on his backroom team together
Maybe David, I spoke to someone last night and he confirmed that he had been offered the 3rd year, but that it was dependent on a vote by the delegates. I don't know about the CB forcing the back room staff but if they did I have no issue with that, that's what happens in a lot of other counties, in Cork and Kerry to name two very successful examples. I suppose it would depend on who they appoint but I would have a felling I know who they would put in, and if they did I would be happier for it.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 10, 2011, 09:55:14 AM
Maybe David, I spoke to someone last night and he confirmed that he had been offered the 3rd year, but that it was dependent on a vote by the delegates. I don't know about the CB forcing the back room staff but if they did I have no issue with that, that's what happens in a lot of other counties, in Cork and Kerry to name two very successful examples. I suppose it would depend on who they appoint but I would have a felling I know who they would put in, and if they did I would be happier for it.
Oh I am not saying it wouldnt be successful I just think it undermines the manager especially if you do it midway through his term. Also was there not a fiasco in Meath this year with their CB forcing backroom staff on Banty?
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 10, 2011, 09:23:21 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 09, 2011, 05:53:48 PM
heard today from a fairly good source that several decent replacements are to be approached this week informally. so thats good.. my man doesnt know if geezer was on the list.. so thats not so good. fingers crossed :-X
Forget about Geezer we can't afford him.
why what level of 'expenses' is Geezer on?
Jeez this is getting messy. Each to their own but any manager with a clear vision would not accept a random management team foisted upon him.
I guess we're all hearing the same rumours and at least some of them are positive.
Quote from: DuffleKing on August 10, 2011, 10:59:55 AM
Jeez this is getting messy. Each to their own but any manager with a clear vision would not accept a random management team foisted upon him.
This.
J McEntee is said to be on the way onto the management team, if so that is a great boost to us and I for one hope this is true.
And if it isn't rubberstamped in September is there a Plan B in terms of a new management team or are we back to where we were 2 years ago?
Quote from: Orangemac on August 10, 2011, 10:56:53 PM
And if it isn't rubberstamped in September is there a Plan B in terms of a new management team or are we back to where we were 2 years ago?
I dont understand this idea that it needs to be rubberstamped, it didnt need rubberstamped last year, nor when he was appointed and the CB went against the wishes of delegates in the previous selection process why all of a sudden does it need stamped this year. I feel sorry for POR at this stage
Quote from: The Chief on August 10, 2011, 10:12:33 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 10, 2011, 09:23:21 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 09, 2011, 05:53:48 PM
heard today from a fairly good source that several decent replacements are to be approached this week informally. so thats good.. my man doesnt know if geezer was on the list.. so thats not so good. fingers crossed :-X
Forget about Geezer we can't afford him.
why what level of 'expenses' is Geezer on?
I had heard from a journalist mate that Geezer was on 120k per year and his assist manager and coach (O'Rourke) were both on 60k (euro). They are by far the highest paid management team in Ireland.
Quote from: ck on August 11, 2011, 12:00:28 AM
Quote from: The Chief on August 10, 2011, 10:12:33 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 10, 2011, 09:23:21 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 09, 2011, 05:53:48 PM
heard today from a fairly good source that several decent replacements are to be approached this week informally. so thats good.. my man doesnt know if geezer was on the list.. so thats not so good. fingers crossed :-X
Forget about Geezer we can't afford him.
why what level of 'expenses' is Geezer on?
I had heard from a journalist mate that Geezer was on 120k per year and his assist manager and coach (O'Rourke) were both on 60k (euro). They are by far the highest paid management team in Ireland.
:D
Quote from: David McKeown on August 10, 2011, 11:15:41 PM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 10, 2011, 10:56:53 PM
And if it isn't rubberstamped in September is there a Plan B in terms of a new management team or are we back to where we were 2 years ago?
I dont understand this idea that it needs to be rubberstamped, it didnt need rubberstamped last year, nor when he was appointed and the CB went against the wishes of delegates in the previous selection process why all of a sudden does it need stamped this year. I feel sorry for POR at this stage
Would totally agree, if the CB don't think he is the man for the job tell him to his face even if it means admitting they appointed the wrong man in the 1st place. Despite misgivings about his ability to do the job, POR deserves to be treated with a bit of respect.
Quote from: Orangemac on August 10, 2011, 10:56:53 PM
And if it isn't rubberstamped in September is there a Plan B in terms of a new management team or are we back to where we were 2 years ago?
i think my mans information refers to a plan B. the county board are aware that por is probably the most unpopular manager armagh has ever had amoungst the supporters. they are also acutely aware that money is tight and all they need now is a fermanagh style meltdown. i remember going to a match in breffini park armagh v dublin in the league there wasnt a hundred armagh supporters at it. that kind of turnout wouldnt pay for many fancy stands or trips to la manga. we need a manager now and a decent league run to raise interest in the team and much needed funds. by the time por is finished with our team- the players self confidence will be gone and so will the supporters.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 11, 2011, 07:00:13 AM
Irish News is reporting that POR will become the Director of Football with the removal of Donal Murtagh and the recruitment of a super coach to take charge of tactics but leaving POR in charge on match days. Paddy Heaney claims that this keeps the costs down and the county board from getting into a selection mess for a replacement manager. Aidan O'Rourke is being touted as a possible coach.
The position of fitness coach Mike McGurn is left unclear.
What a dog's dinner!
Jesus Christ.
Looks like someone in an influential position has been briefing Heaney.
Jesus, these guys have no clue.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 11, 2011, 12:02:04 AM
Quote from: ck on August 11, 2011, 12:00:28 AM
Quote from: The Chief on August 10, 2011, 10:12:33 AM
why what level of 'expenses' is Geezer on?
I had heard from a journalist mate that Geezer was on 120k per year and his assist manager and coach (O'Rourke) were both on 60k (euro). They are by far the highest paid management team in Ireland.
:D
Donnelly's Hollow, you imply that the figure is laughable. I work in Dublin and expenses in and around that level have been quoted to me by many people. Is everyone way off the mark? Have you heard alternative opinions in Kildare?
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 11, 2011, 07:00:13 AM
Irish News is reporting that POR will become the Director of Football with the removal of Donal Murtagh and the recruitment of a super coach to take charge of tactics but leaving POR in charge on match days. Paddy Heaney claims that this keeps the costs down and the county board from getting into a selection mess for a replacement manager. Aidan O'Rourke is being touted as a possible coach.
The position of fitness coach Mike McGurn is left unclear.
What a dog's dinner!
What a mess. Now everyone is in limbo including the county board ???
Quote from: PAULD123 on August 11, 2011, 10:20:29 AM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 11, 2011, 12:02:04 AM
Quote from: ck on August 11, 2011, 12:00:28 AM
Quote from: The Chief on August 10, 2011, 10:12:33 AM
why what level of 'expenses' is Geezer on?
I had heard from a journalist mate that Geezer was on 120k per year and his assist manager and coach (O'Rourke) were both on 60k (euro). They are by far the highest paid management team in Ireland.
:D
Donnelly's Hollow, you imply that the figure is laughable. I work in Dublin and expenses in and around that level have been quoted to me by many people. Is everyone way off the mark? Have you heard alternative opinions in Kildare?
I could def believe they are the most highly paid management team in football but 120k does sound a little crazy. Anyway how do these figures get out? id say there are only a handful of ppl who would know exactly how much they are on!! Is Geezer just another mercenary?? The man is a God in this county and it would utterly disappoint me if he wouldnt take the job due to financial reasons. or am i being completly naiive? is that the way things have gone?
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 11, 2011, 07:00:13 AM
Irish News is reporting that POR will become the Director of Football with the removal of Donal Murtagh and the recruitment of a super coach to take charge of tactics but leaving POR in charge on match days. Paddy Heaney claims that this keeps the costs down and the county board from getting into a selection mess for a replacement manager. Aidan O'Rourke is being touted as a possible coach.
The position of fitness coach Mike McGurn is left unclear.
What a dog's dinner!
That's got to be a piss-take.
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2011, 12:11:47 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 10, 2011, 10:56:53 PM
And if it isn't rubberstamped in September is there a Plan B in terms of a new management team or are we back to where we were 2 years ago?
i think my mans information refers to a plan B. the county board are aware that por is probably the most unpopular manager armagh has ever had amoungst the supporters. they are also acutely aware that money is tight and all they need now is a fermanagh style meltdown. i remember going to a match in breffini park armagh v dublin in the league there wasnt a hundred armagh supporters at it. that kind of turnout wouldnt pay for many fancy stands or trips to la manga. we need a manager now and a decent league run to raise interest in the team and much needed funds. by the time por is finished with our team- the players self confidence will be gone and so will the supporters.
I wouldn't say O'Rourke is as unpopular as the previous manager.
Quote from: PAULD123 on August 11, 2011, 10:20:29 AM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 11, 2011, 12:02:04 AM
Quote from: ck on August 11, 2011, 12:00:28 AM
Quote from: The Chief on August 10, 2011, 10:12:33 AM
why what level of 'expenses' is Geezer on?
I had heard from a journalist mate that Geezer was on 120k per year and his assist manager and coach (O'Rourke) were both on 60k (euro). They are by far the highest paid management team in Ireland.
:D
Donnelly's Hollow, you imply that the figure is laughable. I work in Dublin and expenses in and around that level have been quoted to me by many people. Is everyone way off the mark? Have you heard alternative opinions in Kildare?
Fact: Previous manager was on 100K Euro.
This will end badly. Paddys position wud b undermined imo. I wud like to think that the cb have talked this through with Paddy and the players are on board.
Quote from: DuffleKing on August 11, 2011, 09:31:05 AM
Looks like someone in an influential position has been briefing Heaney.
Jesus, these guys have no clue.
methinks Paddy is getting his info solely from this message board ;)
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 11, 2011, 05:32:45 AM
Never mind the gate receipts, there are plenty of us paying through monthly standing orders and I am considering halting mine unless there is a reasonable resolution of the current situation.
Ditto; what a mess!
If there is any truth in todays Irish News article then POR is a goner IMO. How the hell can a county board say that they have faith in a manager yet look for a "super coach" who will take training, tactics, deal with players and gameplans. SO WHAT THE HELL DO THEY WANT PADDY FOR?! To write the sub slips or maybe he could do the line or something? Armagh looking for a super coach is basically an admission that they know they have a shit manager so need to cover it up with smoke and mirrors.
Armagh county board should wise up and get rid of POR and appoint their "super coach" as manager!
Quote from: PAULD123 on August 11, 2011, 10:20:29 AM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 11, 2011, 12:02:04 AM
Quote from: ck on August 11, 2011, 12:00:28 AM
Quote from: The Chief on August 10, 2011, 10:12:33 AM
why what level of 'expenses' is Geezer on?
I had heard from a journalist mate that Geezer was on 120k per year and his assist manager and coach (O'Rourke) were both on 60k (euro). They are by far the highest paid management team in Ireland.
:D
Donnelly's Hollow, you imply that the figure is laughable. I work in Dublin and expenses in and around that level have been quoted to me by many people. Is everyone way off the mark? Have you heard alternative opinions in Kildare?
The sheep on the Curragh know that McGeeney receives no monetary payment. Sure Syl Merrins lured him to the Shortgrass on the promise that he would receive benefits in kind instead. All the prominent Kildare supporters chipped in - Charlie McCreevy managed to get him his own hospitality tent in the reserved enclosure at the Punchestown Festival, Michael Smurfit made him a life member in the K-Club, Christy Moore offered to pen a new song in his honour, Dermot Weld promised to split his Galway winnings with him, Trevor Brennan gave him a holiday chalet in the south of France, Sheikh Mohammed offered shares in his top stallions at Kildangan Stud likewise the Aga Khan at Giltown, Ronnie Wood donated 50% of all his royalties, Tegral offered to reslate his roof and Sos Dowling fitted his house with new carpets while the good people of Allenwood promised to supply him with 5 tonnes of turf per annum.
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 11, 2011, 12:19:14 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2011, 12:11:47 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 10, 2011, 10:56:53 PM
And if it isn't rubberstamped in September is there a Plan B in terms of a new management team or are we back to where we were 2 years ago?
i think my mans information refers to a plan B. the county board are aware that por is probably the most unpopular manager armagh has ever had amoungst the supporters. they are also acutely aware that money is tight and all they need now is a fermanagh style meltdown. i remember going to a match in breffini park armagh v dublin in the league there wasnt a hundred armagh supporters at it. that kind of turnout wouldnt pay for many fancy stands or trips to la manga. we need a manager now and a decent league run to raise interest in the team and much needed funds. by the time por is finished with our team- the players self confidence will be gone and so will the supporters.
I wouldn't say O'Rourke is as unpopular as the previous manager.
fecks sake apples i'm trying to forget that guy :D
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 11, 2011, 09:21:14 PM
Quote from: PAULD123 on August 11, 2011, 10:20:29 AM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 11, 2011, 12:02:04 AM
Quote from: ck on August 11, 2011, 12:00:28 AM
Quote from: The Chief on August 10, 2011, 10:12:33 AM
why what level of 'expenses' is Geezer on?
I had heard from a journalist mate that Geezer was on 120k per year and his assist manager and coach (O'Rourke) were both on 60k (euro). They are by far the highest paid management team in Ireland.
:D
Donnelly's Hollow, you imply that the figure is laughable. I work in Dublin and expenses in and around that level have been quoted to me by many people. Is everyone way off the mark? Have you heard alternative opinions in Kildare?
The sheep on the Curragh know that McGeeney receives no monetary payment. Sure Syl Merrins lured him to the Shortgrass on the promise that he would receive benefits in kind instead. All the prominent Kildare supporters chipped in - Charlie McCreevy managed to get him his own hospitality tent in the reserved enclosure at the Punchestown Festival, Michael Smurfit made him a life member in the K-Club, Christy Moore offered to pen a new song in his honour, Dermot Weld promised to split his Galway winnings with him, Trevor Brennan gave him a holiday chalet in the south of France, Sheikh Mohammed offered shares in his top stallions at Kildangan Stud likewise the Aga Khan at Giltown, Ronnie Wood donated 50% of all his royalties, Tegral offered to reslate his roof and Sos Dowling fitted his house with new carpets while the good people of Allenwood promised to supply him with 5 tonnes of turf per annum.
:D
I see the CB have informed clubs that the story in the Irish News is without foundation
If that is the case then Irish News journalists shouldn't be allowed to darken the door of the Athletic Grounds. They were responsible for a serious amount of crap rumours before POR got the job (Plunkett Donaghy FFS). We look down our noses at some of the tabloid journalism in England....they're now at that level.
Is it not obvious that someone within the county executive who is privy to whatever informal discussions have gone on has leaked this to Heaney?
Quote from: naka on August 11, 2011, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on August 11, 2011, 09:31:05 AM
Looks like someone in an influential position has been briefing Heaney.
Jesus, these guys have no clue.
methinks Paddy is getting his info solely from this message board ;)
/quote]
as i said i think paddy is making it up, he is trying to cobble together the snippets he is getting from here
my understanding is that paddy gets another year--no dir of football crap and has been told to stengthen his backroom team, guys have been approached but no committments have been made to date
Quote from: DuffleKing on August 12, 2011, 11:44:35 AM
Is it not obvious that someone within the county executive who is privy to whatever informal discussions have gone on has leaked this to Heaney?
No I wouldn't assume that at all.....the Irish News sports department have previous form for printing spurious rubbish when it comes down to this.
Quote from: mackers on August 12, 2011, 10:53:41 AM
If that is the case then Irish News journalists shouldn't be allowed to darken the door of the Athletic Grounds. They were responsible for a serious amount of crap rumours before POR got the job (Plunkett Donaghy FFS). We look down our noses at some of the tabloid journalism in England....they're now at that level.
In fariness mackers, its hardly at the same level or seriousness as what goes on in the English tabloids, after all we are talking here about an amatuer sport and a new coach, its hardly phone hacking and rumours that will destroy peoples lives
Quote from: Onion Bag on August 12, 2011, 01:54:37 PM
Quote from: mackers on August 12, 2011, 10:53:41 AM
If that is the case then Irish News journalists shouldn't be allowed to darken the door of the Athletic Grounds. They were responsible for a serious amount of crap rumours before POR got the job (Plunkett Donaghy FFS). We look down our noses at some of the tabloid journalism in England....they're now at that level.
In fariness mackers, its hardly at the same level or seriousness as what goes on in the English tabloids, after all we are talking here about an amatuer sport and a new coach, its hardly phone hacking and rumours that will destroy peoples lives
Sorry I should have made it clear I was talking about the tabloids' coverage of sports.
i think we should picket next cb meeting. enough is enough >:(
Quote from: lawnseed on August 13, 2011, 12:06:44 AM
i think we should picket next cb meeting. enough is enough >:(
You organise it and Im sure youll get a big crowd.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 11, 2011, 09:21:14 PM
Quote from: PAULD123 on August 11, 2011, 10:20:29 AM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 11, 2011, 12:02:04 AM
Quote from: ck on August 11, 2011, 12:00:28 AM
Quote from: The Chief on August 10, 2011, 10:12:33 AM
why what level of 'expenses' is Geezer on?
I had heard from a journalist mate that Geezer was on 120k per year and his assist manager and coach (O'Rourke) were both on 60k (euro). They are by far the highest paid management team in Ireland.
:D
Donnelly's Hollow, you imply that the figure is laughable. I work in Dublin and expenses in and around that level have been quoted to me by many people. Is everyone way off the mark? Have you heard alternative opinions in Kildare?
The sheep on the Curragh know that McGeeney receives no monetary payment. Sure Syl Merrins lured him to the Shortgrass on the promise that he would receive benefits in kind instead. All the prominent Kildare supporters chipped in - Charlie McCreevy managed to get him his own hospitality tent in the reserved enclosure at the Punchestown Festival, Michael Smurfit made him a life member in the K-Club, Christy Moore offered to pen a new song in his honour, Dermot Weld promised to split his Galway winnings with him, Trevor Brennan gave him a holiday chalet in the south of France, Sheikh Mohammed offered shares in his top stallions at Kildangan Stud likewise the Aga Khan at Giltown, Ronnie Wood donated 50% of all his royalties, Tegral offered to reslate his roof and Sos Dowling fitted his house with new carpets while the good people of Allenwood promised to supply him with 5 tonnes of turf per annum.
;D ;D :D :D :D :D
"The remit of the 'super coach' will include devising a system of play, tactics and coaching. Former Down All-Ireland winning captain O'Rourke, who has many critics within the county after another disappointing season but who has strong support at the top level, will retain the power to make positional changes and substitutions."
wtf are thes guys serious.... what the hell is these clowns playing at? How can someone devise a system of play & tactics and then allow someone else (manager) to make changes/sibstitutuins... surely this would feck uo the former...
Quote from: BerfArmagh on August 15, 2011, 04:47:55 PM
"The remit of the 'super coach' will include devising a system of play, tactics and coaching. Former Down All-Ireland winning captain O'Rourke, who has many critics within the county after another disappointing season but who has strong support at the top level, will retain the power to make positional changes and substitutions."
wtf are thes guys serious.... what the hell is these clowns playing at? How can someone devise a system of play & tactics and then allow someone else (manager) to make changes/sibstitutuins... surely this would feck uo the former...
it's a load of nonsense. heaney made it up seemingly
Quote from: CountyGK on August 15, 2011, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: BerfArmagh on August 15, 2011, 04:47:55 PM
"The remit of the 'super coach' will include devising a system of play, tactics and coaching. Former Down All-Ireland winning captain O'Rourke, who has many critics within the county after another disappointing season but who has strong support at the top level, will retain the power to make positional changes and substitutions."
wtf are thes guys serious.... what the hell is these clowns playing at? How can someone devise a system of play & tactics and then allow someone else (manager) to make changes/sibstitutuins... surely this would feck uo the former...
it's a load of nonsense. heaney made it up seemingly
I'm not so sure someone inside the CB is playing games here. It seems unlikely that even Paddy Heaney would make all of this up.
Quote from: CountyGK on August 15, 2011, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: BerfArmagh on August 15, 2011, 04:47:55 PM
"The remit of the 'super coach' will include devising a system of play, tactics and coaching. Former Down All-Ireland winning captain O'Rourke, who has many critics within the county after another disappointing season but who has strong support at the top level, will retain the power to make positional changes and substitutions."
wtf are thes guys serious.... what the hell is these clowns playing at? How can someone devise a system of play & tactics and then allow someone else (manager) to make changes/sibstitutuins... surely this would feck uo the former...
it's a load of nonsense. heaney made it up seemingly
Seemingly? What does that mean? He told you that he made it up?
Heaney will not have "made it up" ! Ludicrous to suggest that he did. He will have been tipped off by county board officials who like many of the clubs want Paddy out and are simply exposing the craziness that the Armagh board are willing to stoop to in order to keep him. It's a bit like Steve Staunton as irish soccer manager. The dogs on the street knew he wasnt up to the job so the FAI appointed Bobby Robson as his advisor. Crazy stuff. Armagh are now looking for a "Super coach" to try and cover up Paddys incompetance - they are determined to not have another manager issue so they are trying to cover it up by this madness instead!
I make this post with the proviso that I did not attend the Tyrone match due to holidays, but to my mind Paddy O'Rourke's tenure can only be described as a disappointment. There has been no progress and the performances this season have generally been hugely uninspiring. Consider how few matches have produced positive displays which left you leaving the ground in good spirits and full of hope.
In the McKenna Cup - a promising performance away to Down was followed by two dire efforts against the might of Antrim and St Mary's. In the League, we won 2 matches out of 7, weren't particularly unlucky in any of the 5 that we lost but were certainly most fortunate to beat Monaghan. In the championship, one exceptionally good performance was followed by 4 mediocre efforts in which we were deservedly defeated by two Division 2 sides and struggled past a Division 4 team.
So where does that leave us? Some may say that the players aren't good enough to meet the expectations of the supporters and while they may not be ready to win an All Ireland next year, even the most measured of Armagh supporters should not accept that failing to reach the last 16 2 years in succession is a true estimation of our side's abilities. The players in the squad are the players we are stuck with as I can't envisage too many changes, other than some minor tinkering, for 2012. By and large, these are the best players in Armagh.
And so to the management, the crucial matter to consider is whether the current management team have the side performing at about the level to be expected, whether the management team are providing "added value" i.e. getting the overall performance to equate to more than the sum of the parts (see Jim McGuinness & Donegal) or whether the management team is hindering the progress of the side.
My own inescapable belief is that the latter is true. I take no pleasure in saying it. I was vehement in my objection to Paddy O'Rourke's appointment but was willing to give him a chance. Nobody doubts that he is a decent man trying to his best. Indeed I was very irritated earlier in the season when Donal Murtagh responded to criticism of O'Rourke by stating that the supporters don't realise the work he puts in. Nobody doubts that he makes every effort to be successful, what we call into question is his ability to make those efforts fruitful. Unfortunately all our fears expressed at the appointment of a man with a failed track record have been realised.
We can quibble about the tactics all we what. There have been mistakes made in this regard and what has been particularly noticeable is the wild variation in styles, ultra-defensive against Derry in 2010 in Celtic Park, lamentably open against the same opposition in Clones this year. But to my mind, the fundamental issue is that the players simply do not respect the management team. They have no faith in their ability to prepare a team at the top level and simply don't buy into Paddy O'Rourke's ethos, whatever that may be. Once a manager fails to command the respect and admiration of his charges, all hope is lost.
To me, all of the above is fairly obvious, even to a supporter like myself with little in-depth knowledge of the game. With the present management team in charge, I foresee nothing but stagnation yet if the rumours are to believed, and I do stress if, those in charge of football in our county consider that he is doing a sufficiently meritorious job to deserve another year in charge. I simply can't see the justification for that view and it troubles me deeply that such a scenario might come to pass.
TAD, I'm not sure we even have the best available players on the panel, having seen the performance of Stephen Kernan for Cross against Clann Eireann and in previous matches in the Ulster and All Ireland I would question the ability of any manager who prefers Johnny Murtagh.
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 16, 2011, 04:34:11 PM
TAD, I'm not sure we even have the best available players on the panel, having seen the performance of Stephen Kernan for Cross against Clann Eireann and in previous matches in the Ulster and All Ireland I would question the ability of any manager who prefers Johnny Murtagh.
+100
At a time when most Armagh people want rid of POR but the county board try to avoid another crisis and want to appoint a "super coach" ...and with Aidan O'Rourke stepping down in Kildare. Is it not all pretty obvious what SHOULD happen here?
Let Aidan come in and stop the rot and steer things back in the right direction.
Also, just a thought, but has Cathal O'Rourke (Aidans brother) ever been mentioned for the Armagh job? He's a vastly experienced coach and manager. I heard him mentioned recently by an ex county board member. Maybe he is the new "super coach"?
Would we be naïve in assuming this is a done deal and that A O'Rourke will obviously come in to regenerate the Armagh setup? It really is astonishing thay Paddy has been left in place and is a terrible indictment of the the judgement of the county executive and Duggan in particular
Mc Iver and Tally in now that Down are minus 2 good men ?
Quote from: DuffleKing on August 22, 2011, 09:19:05 AM
Would we be naïve in assuming this is a done deal and that A O'Rourke will obviously come in to regenerate the Armagh setup? It really is astonishing thay Paddy has been left in place and is a terrible indictment of the the judgement of the county executive and Duggan in particular
I think you're being grossly unfair. I'd be very sure that Paul Duggan will play the hand he has been dealt to do the best he possibly can for Armagh.
Quote from: orangeman on August 22, 2011, 01:46:52 PM
Mc Iver and Tally in now that Down are minus 2 good men ?
Definitely think that would be a very good move but there needs to be an Armagh man at the head of it all.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 23, 2011, 10:01:20 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 22, 2011, 01:46:52 PM
Mc Iver and Tally in now that Down are minus 2 good men ?
Definitely think that would be a very good move but there needs to be an Armagh man at the head of it all.
How much money does Hugh Morgan have??!!
Quote from: sheamy on August 23, 2011, 10:10:25 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 23, 2011, 10:01:20 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 22, 2011, 01:46:52 PM
Mc Iver and Tally in now that Down are minus 2 good men ?
Definitely think that would be a very good move but there needs to be an Armagh man at the head of it all.
How much money does Hugh Morgan have??!!
True :D I remember McIvor getting a very serious dig once about that, he didn't like it one bit :D
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 23, 2011, 10:14:07 AM
Quote from: sheamy on August 23, 2011, 10:10:25 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 23, 2011, 10:01:20 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 22, 2011, 01:46:52 PM
Mc Iver and Tally in now that Down are minus 2 good men ?
Definitely think that would be a very good move but there needs to be an Armagh man at the head of it all.
How much money does Hugh Morgan have??!!
True :D I remember McIvor getting a very serious dig once about that, he didn't like it one bit :D
lol...there's alot of them boys about lad
Its not one bit harsh Rufus. Duggan came in with much promise but has proved to be a very weak chairman with little competence in the way of leadership. The acceptance of POR for another year but dressing it up with new clothes is just the most high profile example.
Maybe there's a bigger problem here. Maybe the structures and politics of the county chairman's role does not allow for independent thinking or initiative? Maybe the perceived CEO type role is not workable and maybe the chairman is not weak of his own volition?
Quote from: DuffleKing on August 23, 2011, 11:21:54 AM
Its not one bit harsh Rufus. Duggan came in with much promise but has proved to be a very weak chairman with little competence in the way of leadership. The acceptance of POR for another year but dressing it up with new clothes is just the most high profile example.
Maybe there's a bigger problem here. Maybe the structures and politics of the county chairman's role does not allow for independent thinking or initiative? Maybe the perceived CEO type role is not workable and maybe the chairman is not weak of his own volition?
The questions you ask suggest to me that you know as much as I do about the actual intricacies of the Chairman's role. On the basis that I do not know, I will not rush to judge.
I've said it before on this thread, but I'll repeat again - simply getting rid of POR is not an option if there is no adequate replacement. Many of the names touted as replacements are likely to be unavailable for numerous reasons.
Furthermore, I believe that it could be argued by some that POR has done enough to justify another year, i.e. Championship win over All Ireland Finalists Down, retention of Division One status after getting us there. Now, as people are happy to add 2 + 2 and get 5 on this Board, I should state that I would have issue with this view - however it is possible that there are those in power who genuinely feel that retaining POR is justified on the basis of his tenure to date - and issues of 'weakness' and 'competence' therefore do not apply.
As I have stated on previous occasions POR was not my idea of an Armagh manager. However I do believe he has done enough to secure another year. I do have concerns about consistency and what appears from the stands to be a lack of togetherness both amongst the players and the management team, although I admit this is just my reading of body language, engagement between individuals and remain open to correction. POR was at most Championship matches last year and I would have expected to have seen some new faces in the championship but alas too few, but as an ex county player once said to me it is sometimes easier to get on the panel than off. I also feel that he has been overly influenced by others at times in his selection processes, an accusation many Down men would agree with.
The GAA needs to bring in rules about outside managers. No one form outside a county should be allowed to manage a county. Same rules need to apply to managers as players.
Certainly, like most, I know little of the intricacies of the Chairman's role within the Armagh county board. However, I have reasonable experience as a chairman - sporting and otherwise. The two extremes of a chairman's approach are to either facilitate or to lead and most fall somewhere on the line between the two.
As a step forward, Duggan was expected to be a leader and to initiate change and a drive towards better standards and professionalism across the board. The view generally among people who have interacted in those circles is that the expectation has not materialized.
There is a view floating around that this stay of execution for por is a holding pattern for a better candidate in 12 months time. If that were to prove true then it is a damning commentary on the top table's regard for football and footballers within the county.
Regarding por's justification of a claim on progress, it can be built around retaining division 1 status but anyone with an ounce of knowledge, and more tellingly anyone with any insight into the camp, knows that there has been no progress. There has been only regression and the players are thoroughly disillusioned. The co board must know this and must be expecting that a change of coaching staff will address this. The unwillingness to address the glaring issue is criminal in my book and is nothing short of neglect of duty on behalf of the county executive.
If the club delegates then endorse this malaise of mediocrity then at least we know that noone in authority really gives a fcuk so why should we and we can stop spending money supporting the team and its surrounds with a clear conscience.
Quote from: snippets on August 23, 2011, 01:45:48 PM
The GAA needs to bring in rules about outside managers. No one form outside a county should be allowed to manage a county. Same rules need to apply to managers as players.
Why? Look at the expertise someone like Dinny Cahill can bring to Antrim Hurling or Geezer in Kildare or Micko or Mickey Moran.
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 23, 2011, 01:51:47 PM
Quote from: snippets on August 23, 2011, 01:45:48 PM
The GAA needs to bring in rules about outside managers. No one form outside a county should be allowed to manage a county. Same rules need to apply to managers as players.
Why? Look at the expertise someone like Dinny Cahill can bring to Antrim Hurling or Geezer in Kildare or Micko or Mickey Moran.
Why? Because by and large outside managers are paid managers. If these individuals (not solely directed at the name above) were so passionate about the game why don't they go and take minor or u21 teams in their own counties for expenses only? It's all about the cash lads. Make no mistake about it. It distorts the whole scene and I cannot stress that enough.
Quote from: sheamy on August 23, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 23, 2011, 01:51:47 PM
Quote from: snippets on August 23, 2011, 01:45:48 PM
The GAA needs to bring in rules about outside managers. No one form outside a county should be allowed to manage a county. Same rules need to apply to managers as players.
Why? Look at the expertise someone like Dinny Cahill can bring to Antrim Hurling or Geezer in Kildare or Micko or Mickey Moran.
Why? Because by and large outside managers are paid managers. If these individuals (not solely directed at the name above) were so passionate about the game why don't they go and take minor or u21 teams in their own counties for expenses only? It's all about the cash lads. Make no mistake about it. It distorts the whole scene and I cannot stress that enough.
Certainly that may be the case but at a time when the Ulster Council has more employees than Tesco why is it not ok for Counties to buy in expertise? Physios and Docters are paid, county secretaries are paid, perhaps if it was legitimised with appropriate rates of pay?
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 23, 2011, 02:27:05 PM
Quote from: sheamy on August 23, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 23, 2011, 01:51:47 PM
Quote from: snippets on August 23, 2011, 01:45:48 PM
The GAA needs to bring in rules about outside managers. No one form outside a county should be allowed to manage a county. Same rules need to apply to managers as players.
Why? Look at the expertise someone like Dinny Cahill can bring to Antrim Hurling or Geezer in Kildare or Micko or Mickey Moran.
Why? Because by and large outside managers are paid managers. If these individuals (not solely directed at the name above) were so passionate about the game why don't they go and take minor or u21 teams in their own counties for expenses only? It's all about the cash lads. Make no mistake about it. It distorts the whole scene and I cannot stress that enough.
Certainly that may be the case but at a time when the Ulster Council has more employees than Tesco why is it not ok for Counties to buy in expertise? Physios and Docters are paid, county secretaries are paid, perhaps if it was legitimised with appropriate rates of pay?
The difference is the Ulster Council employees are paid out of tax payers money (by and large). When or if that dried up the Ulster Council would have to get rid of those people. Managers would and are being be paid out of club/county money - money hard earned and needed to keep clubs going.
Quote from: sheamy on August 23, 2011, 02:37:01 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 23, 2011, 02:27:05 PM
Quote from: sheamy on August 23, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 23, 2011, 01:51:47 PM
Quote from: snippets on August 23, 2011, 01:45:48 PM
The GAA needs to bring in rules about outside managers. No one form outside a county should be allowed to manage a county. Same rules need to apply to managers as players.
Why? Look at the expertise someone like Dinny Cahill can bring to Antrim Hurling or Geezer in Kildare or Micko or Mickey Moran.
Why? Because by and large outside managers are paid managers. If these individuals (not solely directed at the name above) were so passionate about the game why don't they go and take minor or u21 teams in their own counties for expenses only? It's all about the cash lads. Make no mistake about it. It distorts the whole scene and I cannot stress that enough.
Certainly that may be the case but at a time when the Ulster Council has more employees than Tesco why is it not ok for Counties to buy in expertise? Physios and Docters are paid, county secretaries are paid, perhaps if it was legitimised with appropriate rates of pay?
The difference is the Ulster Council employees are paid out of tax payers money (by and large). When or if that dried up the Ulster Council would have to get rid of those people. Managers would and are being be paid out of club/county money - money hard earned and needed to keep clubs going.
Well actually in fairness many of those paid managers are getting money from companies who would not put it directly in to the county. I would agree that counties such as Armagh and Derry should not need outside help, but I suspect that some inside candidates would still need paying. I would also say that given what is expected of the average intercounty manager it would be hard earned.
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on August 23, 2011, 01:05:52 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on August 23, 2011, 11:21:54 AM
Its not one bit harsh Rufus. Duggan came in with much promise but has proved to be a very weak chairman with little competence in the way of leadership. The acceptance of POR for another year but dressing it up with new clothes is just the most high profile example.
Maybe there's a bigger problem here. Maybe the structures and politics of the county chairman's role does not allow for independent thinking or initiative? Maybe the perceived CEO type role is not workable and maybe the chairman is not weak of his own volition?
The questions you ask suggest to me that you know as much as I do about the actual intricacies of the Chairman's role. On the basis that I do not know, I will not rush to judge.
I've said it before on this thread, but I'll repeat again - simply getting rid of POR is not an option if there is no adequate replacement. Many of the names touted as replacements are likely to be unavailable for numerous reasons.
Furthermore, I believe that it could be argued by some that POR has done enough to justify another year, i.e. Championship win over All Ireland Finalists Down, retention of Division One status after getting us there. Now, as people are happy to add 2 + 2 and get 5 on this Board, I should state that I would have issue with this view - however it is possible that there are those in power who genuinely feel that retaining POR is justified on the basis of his tenure to date - and issues of 'weakness' and 'competence' therefore do not apply.
With respect Rufus, I strongly disagree with the point you make which I've highlighted. Armagh are a Division 1 team with a reasonably talented bunch of players. Whether they are absolutely top class is debatable but as managerial propositions go, I'd say there'd be no shortage of contenders, inside and outside the county.
The process must surely be two phased. The first decision to make is whether Paddy O'Rourke merits another season in charge of Armagh, based on his record in the past two years. My own strong view is that he does not and that his services should be dispensed with and a new manager sought.
Yes, there is a risk that the new man could be even more unsuitable and we head further into the doldrums but I firmly believe that it is a risk worth taking. Better to take a chance on a new manager who might do a poor job than retain the present incumbent under whom further stagnation appears certain.
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on August 23, 2011, 04:53:25 PM
With respect Rufus, I strongly disagree with the point you make which I've highlighted. Armagh are a Division 1 team with a reasonably talented bunch of players. Whether they are absolutely top class is debatable but as managerial propositions go, I'd say there'd be no shortage of contenders, inside and outside the county.
My guess would be Tac that if the contenders were asked to do the job on POR's terms and conditions, then the list of candidates would shrink dramatically.
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on August 23, 2011, 05:16:58 PM
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on August 23, 2011, 04:53:25 PM
With respect Rufus, I strongly disagree with the point you make which I've highlighted. Armagh are a Division 1 team with a reasonably talented bunch of players. Whether they are absolutely top class is debatable but as managerial propositions go, I'd say there'd be no shortage of contenders, inside and outside the county.
My guess would be that if the contenders were asked to do the job on POR's terms and conditions, then the list of candidates would shrink dramatically.
You are correct, that is the crux of the matter
I see Heaney reports today in the irish news that the Armagh county board have found this new "super coach" ::) any word on who his identity is considering A O Rourke has ruled himself out?
Quote from: redandblackareback on August 25, 2011, 01:16:22 PM
I see Heaney reports today in the irish news that the Armagh county board have found this new "super coach" ::) any word on who his identity is considering A O Rourke has ruled himself out?
:) They're playing a blinder on this PR wise. He'd need to be some pup as he'll he known as the 'super coach' from now on.
Maybe it's John Morrison,he parted company with Eglish at the weekend.
Quote from: Club Rossa on August 25, 2011, 03:12:34 PM
Maybe it's John Morrison,he parted company with Eglish at the weekend.
fck ya, you beat me to it!
Jaysus, I couldn't see that ending well for anyone.
I wouldn't expect armagh to go that direction again anyway
At least we'd go down laughing.
Quote from: redandblackareback on August 25, 2011, 01:16:22 PM
I see Heaney reports today in the irish news that the Armagh county board have found this new "super coach" ::) any word on who his identity is considering A O Rourke has ruled himself out?
Maybe it's one of Moley's new double deckers with the toilet/wifi/tv and everything ;)
(http://www.astickerheaven4u.com/catalog/cb_1_510_1.JPG)
Morrison would be all over that lads...
I can only imagine what the players make of this farce. Their dirty linen laid out bare for the world to see thanks to a source within either the team or the county board briefing one of Irish journalism's more smug offerings.
I genuinely don't know whether to laugh or cry. In the most important role in Armagh football we have a man who patently is unfit for the job he is expected to do yet rather than take the obvious course and bring in fresh management, there appear to be desperate efforts to save face and rescue the situation with an almost unprecedented definition of roles. It would seem that those presiding over our county's football are more concerned with propping up O'Rourke's failed regime than taking the decisive action necessary. In relation to those who wish to retain Paddy O'Rourke as manager, it saddens me to say that this view appears so far detached from reality that I must question whether those who hold it really have the best interests of Armagh at heart.
People refer to the constraints placed upon the present manager, I don't pretend to know the nuances of these though I have fair idea where they come from. If these constraints are restricting our choice of manager, then those who insist upon them need to consider their positions.
Does anyone have whatever aidan o'rourke said in the paper today about this?
I don't have it word for word but he says he has never spoken to anyone in the ACB about coaching any Armagh team but that he would be very happy to coach any Armagh team at any level or something to that effect.
TAC I couldn't agree with you more! It only amazes me that more people are not making their voices heard on this issue. I for one as an Armagh supporter feel completely useless and ashamed! Useless because I can't do one damed thing abut this and ashamed because we have a CB who obviously don't give a shit about Armagh gaelic football and its progress! I'm calling a spade a spade because for too long Armagh supporters have been too diplomatic and quiet and what has happened, Armagh are now, within 10 years of winning an All-Ireland a very mediocre team with not one of those who won that said All-Ireland involved in the running of that team. And then to top it all off, we have a man who sweated blood for that team, a proven trainer, saying he would love to be involved but no-one has asked him, so now he'll trot off to Down, where they can make good use of him. Holy sweet Jesus - what the hell has happened to the Gaelic Athletic Association as I thought I knew it????
I'm stating categorically now, that if nothing changes in Armagh football this year, for the first time in my life, I'm refusing to attend! That will be a shot to the CB and not the players as I have the highest regard for those that are doing their best in a very trying situation. I also feel for POR as he has been caught in a mess which the CB does not have the balls to get him out of. He is not right for Armagh, pure and simple. Someone mentioned on here the other day that we can't change when there's no alternative. Tell me, how much are they really looking for one?????
Enough Said and Enough Read! Armagh should be better than this!
Paul mc Shane has stepped down as minor manager.......
QuotePaul mc Shane has stepped down as minor manager.......
I know his name was reasonably associated with U-21s, is this more significant than that??
QuoteThe minors did miss out on a sure AI final.
You could say they did this for 2 years in a row.
The U-21s were beaten in the first round for 2 years in a row.
Hope McShane takes on the U21s then, a bit of continuity and maybe on through to Senior a la Mickey Harte would be nice.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 27, 2011, 10:22:28 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 27, 2011, 08:52:22 PM
Hope McShane takes on the U21s then, a bit of continuity and maybe on through to Senior a la Mickey Harte would be nice.
Mickey Harte's ability to take the minors through u21 and on to senior AI wins is not something that can be replicated by very many others. Those AI winning minor managers who have followed Mickey Harte have largely failed to repeat his success at u21 level. The fabled Tyrone talent conveyor belt has ground as minor success has lead to little more in terms of u21 success or breakthrough to the senior team. In 2007, Tyrone minors won the AI, Omagh CBS won the Hogan Cup and the Tyrone Vocationals won the AI and that is where it all ended for those players and that talent. The same minor management team took another group to AI success in 2010 and Dungannon have won successive MacRory Cups and a Hogan same Cup, again no progress. Over the last four years Tyrone failed every year at u21 level with the same management team.
You can't depend on bringing on a minor squad to senior AI success. Armagh needs a manager who can take charge and make the required changes like Gerry O'Neill in 76, the two Brian's in the late 90s and Big Joe in 02 to 05 with the talent that is currently available. we are currently in one of those inbetween periods probably best compared with the Jim McCorry years. If the right move is made now Armagh can regain some ground to become competitive in the top 8, if not then the talent will disapate and we will decline to the mediocrity of hoping for a three or four game championship each year.
Tyrone won the AI minor title in 2008 and the management team of Munroe et al are only in their first term of U21 management.
I did hear tonight that Cathal O'Rourke was approached for the infamous role of 'super coach' and has met with POR.
Look, I know this could be complete BS but it came from someone who would be in the know. He also said that Cathal wasnt the only one approached.
I just think the whole thing is an absolute farce. The Armagh county board are taking the P*ss. I read on Friday that POR will be more 'autorcratic' this year and will not be consulting the players with regard to tactics. My god, the Armagh board should take a good look at themselves if they think POR is going to have the respect of players after all this. A complete shambles of the highest order!
Quote from: ck on August 27, 2011, 10:53:52 PM
I just think the whole thing is an absolute farce. The Armagh county board are taking the P*ss. I read on Friday that POR will be more 'autorcratic' this year and will not be consulting the players with regard to tactics. My god, the Armagh board should take a good look at themselves if they think POR is going to have the respect of players after all this. A complete shambles of the highest order!
For christ's sake man are you just going to take Paddy heaney's agenda driven shite at face value???
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 27, 2011, 10:22:28 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 27, 2011, 08:52:22 PM
Hope McShane takes on the U21s then, a bit of continuity and maybe on through to Senior a la Mickey Harte would be nice.
Mickey Harte's ability to take the minors through u21 and on to senior AI wins is not something that can be replicated by very many others. Those AI winning minor managers who have followed Mickey Harte have largely failed to repeat his success at u21 level. The fabled Tyrone talent conveyor belt has ground as minor success has lead to little more in terms of u21 success or breakthrough to the senior team. In 2007, Tyrone minors won the AI, Omagh CBS won the Hogan Cup and the Tyrone Vocationals won the AI and that is where it all ended for those players and that talent. The same minor management team took another group to AI success in 2010 and Dungannon have won successive MacRory Cups and a Hogan same Cup, again no progress. Over the last four years Tyrone failed every year at u21 level with the same management team.
You can't depend on bringing on a minor squad to senior AI success. Armagh needs a manager who can take charge and make the required changes like Gerry O'Neill in 76, the two Brian's in the late 90s and Big Joe in 02 to 05 with the talent that is currently available. we are currently in one of those inbetween periods probably best compared with the Jim McCorry years. If the right move is made now Armagh can regain some ground to become competitive in the top 8, if not then the talent will disapate and we will decline to the mediocrity of hoping for a three or four game championship each year.
McShane has done enough to merit a chance.
What is your grand plan as a matter of interest?
Quote from: ck on August 27, 2011, 10:53:52 PM
I did hear tonight that Cathal O'Rourke was approached for the infamous role of 'super coach' and has met with POR.
Look, I know this could be complete BS but it came from someone who would be in the know. He also said that Cathal wasnt the only one approached.
I just think the whole thing is an absolute farce. The Armagh county board are taking the P*ss. I read on Friday that POR will be more 'autorcratic' this year and will not be consulting the players with regard to tactics. My god, the Armagh board should take a good look at themselves if they think POR is going to have the respect of players after all this. A complete shambles of the highest order!
ck, I've trailed through the various Armagh threads on the board to see if there is a general consensus that Cathal O'Rourke should have been in the running for any sort of post in the Armagh set-up. It turns out that you were the only poster who suggested this. In fact you suggested it several times in different threads. You now claim that COR was offered the role of 'Super-Coach', in hidnsight this would have been ahead of the much respected and coveted Paul Grimley. Again, I find it strange that I have not heard or read this rumour anywhere else.
If I was cynical in my nature I might be tempted to think you were some kind of agent antagonising on Cathal O'Rourke's behalf - if I was even more cynical I might be tempted to think there was a much more embarrassing explanation still...
DJ, no hidden agenda on my part my friend. I only stated what I had heard from a pretty trustworthy source. I had heard Aidan was approached for this later to be changed to Cathal. Clearly this was BS but if there were truth in it then perhaps they were approached in some shape or form?. Anyway, it's all speculation now and Grimley is now "super coach" for his sins!
Good luck to Armagh, I have long admired them and look forward to their return as a super power.
I would love to see Grimley head us up with AOR on his staff, I would tell McGurn to feck off as he is not getting the job done and costs a fortune.
For me the three men we need in the Armagh camp the most are Grimley, O'Rourke and Geezer.
This thread seems like a distant memory, Paddy seems to be finally getting it right and fair play to him
This year's transformation is down to Paul Grimley.
Paddy O'Rourke out in front.
Quote from: ardchieftain on February 11, 2012, 08:47:00 PM
This year's transformation is down to Paul Grimley.
Jesus. Two matches = a transfomation.
]
This year's transformation is down to Paul Grimley.
Funny was expecting that but yet when they were getting beat last year when Oisin and Mc Grane was there it was all Paddys fault but when they win its everybody else that gets the plaudits and not poor Paddy
Poor Paddy :(
Quote from: NP 76 on February 11, 2012, 09:15:09 PM
]
This year's transformation is down to Paul Grimley.
Funny was expecting that but yet when they were getting beat last year when Oisin and Mc Grane was there it was all Paddys fault but when they win its everybody else that gets the plaudits and not poor Paddy
Grimley has benefited from that type of thinking for years, he was supposedly responsible for all that was good in Armagh in the 2002 era, Big Joe was responsible for all the failures. POR as manager derserves credit, but PG's current positive influence is hard to argue with.
Has there been a differnce in attitude in the performances this year ?
Is the intensity back ? The tackling ?
i don't care about last year or 2002, that's a debate for another day
i'm talking about leaving the athletic grounds on several occasions last year thoroughly embarrassed by the performance....
Fast forward to this year. Spot the difference ?
I will admit my statement on my previous post was perhaps a tad sweeping
but...................
Oisin and McGrane helped with specific coaching. I doubt they had a role in the overall team strategy, Grimley probably has a bigger role.
simply put O'Rourke has little to no respect coaching and tactically from the players yet they not only respect Grimley they're shit scared of him as well.
Quote from: bennydorano on February 11, 2012, 09:31:08 PM
Quote from: NP 76 on February 11, 2012, 09:15:09 PM
]
This year's transformation is down to Paul Grimley.
Funny was expecting that but yet when they were getting beat last year when Oisin and Mc Grane was there it was all Paddys fault but when they win its everybody else that gets the plaudits and not poor Paddy
Grimley has benefited from that type of thinking for years, he was supposedly responsible for all that was good in Armagh in the 2002 era, Big Joe was responsible for all the failures. POR as manager derserves credit, but PG's current positive influence is hard to argue with.
He's not my cup of tea, and I have to admit I wouldn't be thrilled to see him get the Armagh job, but players seem to love the man, and that's the main thing. Also think the role of Brendan Hughes needs to be acknowledged too.
Correct me if I'm wrong but another possible contributing factor to the upturn in form is the absence any Cross men on POR's management team, and the absence of any Crossmaglen B team players.
Quote from: Etienne Lantier on February 12, 2012, 03:08:39 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on February 11, 2012, 09:31:08 PM
Quote from: NP 76 on February 11, 2012, 09:15:09 PM
]
This year's transformation is down to Paul Grimley.
Funny was expecting that but yet when they were getting beat last year when Oisin and Mc Grane was there it was all Paddys fault but when they win its everybody else that gets the plaudits and not poor Paddy
Grimley has benefited from that type of thinking for years, he was supposedly responsible for all that was good in Armagh in the 2002 era, Big Joe was responsible for all the failures. POR as manager derserves credit, but PG's current positive influence is hard to argue with.
He's not my cup of tea, and I have to admit I wouldn't be thrilled to see him get the Armagh job, but players seem to love the man, and that's the main thing. Also think the role of Brendan Hughes needs to be acknowledged too.
Read this mans name in the paper yesterday. Is he a new selector this year? Is he the guy that POR is listening to in the earpiece? Always wondered who that was?
Hats off to Armagh and they have really made a promising start this year.
O'Rourke deserves huge credit for surrounding himself with good people. That is a serious attribute in my opinion.
Quote from: whitegoodman on February 12, 2012, 11:59:01 AM
Quote from: Etienne Lantier on February 12, 2012, 03:08:39 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on February 11, 2012, 09:31:08 PM
Quote from: NP 76 on February 11, 2012, 09:15:09 PM
]
This year's transformation is down to Paul Grimley.
Funny was expecting that but yet when they were getting beat last year when Oisin and Mc Grane was there it was all Paddys fault but when they win its everybody else that gets the plaudits and not poor Paddy
Grimley has benefited from that type of thinking for years, he was supposedly responsible for all that was good in Armagh in the 2002 era, Big Joe was responsible for all the failures. POR as manager derserves credit, but PG's current positive influence is hard to argue with.
He's not my cup of tea, and I have to admit I wouldn't be thrilled to see him get the Armagh job, but players seem to love the man, and that's the main thing. Also think the role of Brendan Hughes needs to be acknowledged too.
Read this mans name in the paper yesterday. Is he a new selector this year? Is he the guy that POR is listening to in the earpiece? Always wondered who that was?
He was Pearse Og manager the last 3 years and the only manager in Ulster to defeat Cross in the last 6 years in Championship football. Very tactically aware and very stats driven manager/coach.
so its 10 minutes before the all irl final 2012 and your in croker in the armagh dressing room.. who do you think will be doing the teamtalk..? or to be more precise who do you want to hear doing the teamtalk? paddy or grimley?
Calm down folks. We did great to beat Kerry, but we can be woeful too. Anyone remember the first half display against Cork?
Just don't get carried away.
Quote from: BennyCake on February 14, 2012, 08:29:43 PM
Calm down folks. We did great to beat Kerry, but we can be woeful too. Anyone remember the first half display against Cork?
Just don't get carried away.
i hate this kind of craic about not getting carried away. I've been a big critic of armagh the past few years ( though i dont post much on here), so i'm just happy we actually beat kerry, and nearly cork, rather than get 2 tankings.
No doubt we could have a few poor results ahead of us, but most of us are just a bit happy only cause expectations were rock bottom at the start of the season, just read the comments from some people after the down mckenna cup game. Whatever about the national league (which i never go to watch), never read anything into a mckenna cup game!
Quote from: Orchardman on February 14, 2012, 11:04:46 PM
i hate this kind of craic about not getting carried away. I've been a big critic of armagh the past few years ( though i dont post much on here), so i'm just happy we actually beat kerry, and nearly cork, rather than get 2 tankings.
No doubt we could have a few poor results ahead of us, but most of us are just a bit happy only cause expectations were rock bottom at the start of the season, just read the comments from some people after the down mckenna cup game. Whatever about the national league (which i never go to watch), never read anything into a mckenna cup game!
That post made absolutely no sense whatsoever, orchardman.
No Armagh follower will get carried away just proud of the two fine results so far credit to O'Rouke.
One swallow does not make a summer. We had a pretty good day against Down last year, but this was followed by a less than satisfactory performance against Derry.
Yis are hateful cnuts in Armagh!!
Two cracking games without your Cross lads FFS
Quote from: lawnseed on February 14, 2012, 08:25:42 PM
so its 10 minutes before the all irl final 2012 and your in croker in the armagh dressing room.. who do you think will be doing the teamtalk..? or to be more precise who do you want to hear doing the teamtalk? paddy or grimley?
It'd be very unfair to the ladies' manager not to let him get on with it himself.
Quote from: BennyCake on February 15, 2012, 01:52:29 AM
Quote from: Orchardman on February 14, 2012, 11:04:46 PM
i hate this kind of craic about not getting carried away. I've been a big critic of armagh the past few years ( though i dont post much on here), so i'm just happy we actually beat kerry, and nearly cork, rather than get 2 tankings.
No doubt we could have a few poor results ahead of us, but most of us are just a bit happy only cause expectations were rock bottom at the start of the season, just read the comments from some people after the down mckenna cup game. Whatever about the national league (which i never go to watch), never read anything into a mckenna cup game!
That post made absolutely no sense whatsoever, orchardman.
It simply says I dont believe anyone is getting carried away, so we don't need others ( it's not just you that has said it) telling us to keep our heads out of the clouds and calm down. i think my previous post is very clear
Grimley is the man calling the shots, POR is only there as a figurehead and to carry out media duties. It probably suits well enough since it allows Grimley and Hughes to concentrate on the coaching and carry out the decision making.
Quote from: lawnseed on February 14, 2012, 08:25:42 PM
so its 10 minutes before the all irl final 2012 and your in croker in the armagh dressing room.. who do you think will be doing the teamtalk..? or to be more precise who do you want to hear doing the teamtalk? paddy or grimley?
Depends who the Manager has put in place to do that job.
I would rather have the Coach doing the coaching,the fitness trainer doing the fitness training, the water carrier doing the water carrying and the bus driver driving the bus.
Quote from: yellowcard on February 15, 2012, 02:05:23 PM
Grimley is the man calling the shots, POR is only there as a figurehead and to carry out media duties. It probably suits well enough since it allows Grimley and Hughes to concentrate on the coaching and carry out the decision making.
It suits now when the team is winning and playing well but what happens when the results go against us, which they will. DOes tha manager take the fall? The role of a no 2 is a safe role.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 15, 2012, 04:08:49 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 15, 2012, 02:05:23 PM
Grimley is the man calling the shots, POR is only there as a figurehead and to carry out media duties. It probably suits well enough since it allows Grimley and Hughes to concentrate on the coaching and carry out the decision making.
It suits now when the team is winning and playing well but what happens when the results go against us, which they will. DOes tha manager take the fall? The role of a no 2 is a safe role.
Yep :)
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 15, 2012, 04:08:49 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 15, 2012, 02:05:23 PM
Grimley is the man calling the shots, POR is only there as a figurehead and to carry out media duties. It probably suits well enough since it allows Grimley and Hughes to concentrate on the coaching and carry out the decision making.
It suits now when the team is winning and playing well but what happens when the results go against us, which they will. DOes tha manager take the fall? The role of a no 2 is a safe role.
In Armaghs case it's obvious to all and sundry that POR is only keeping the seat warm for Grimley. The noises I was hearing a few weeks ago suggested he might not last the duration of the League though this possibility appears to have subsided with recent results.
It really is a strange set up and irrespective of how things develop this year I cannot understand why the CB didn't just give Grimley the job altogether. Maybe it was too much for them to have to appoint him after the previous managerial appointment debacle when Grimley pulled out of the race.
Quote from: yellowcard on February 15, 2012, 08:54:12 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 15, 2012, 04:08:49 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 15, 2012, 02:05:23 PM
Grimley is the man calling the shots, POR is only there as a figurehead and to carry out media duties. It probably suits well enough since it allows Grimley and Hughes to concentrate on the coaching and carry out the decision making.
It suits now when the team is winning and playing well but what happens when the results go against us, which they will. DOes tha manager take the fall? The role of a no 2 is a safe role.
In Armaghs case it's obvious to all and sundry that POR is only keeping the seat warm for Grimley. The noises I was hearing a few weeks ago suggested he might not last the duration of the League though this possibility appears to have subsided with recent results.
It really is a strange set up and irrespective of how things develop this year I cannot understand why the CB didn't just give Grimley the job altogether. Maybe it was too much for them to have to appoint him after the previous managerial appointment debacle when Grimley pulled out of the race.
You've got it right, face saving way of appointing Paul Grimley.
I firmly believe Grimley has made a difference in terms of attitude & preparation. I actually think he & POR make a good team. To be honest I have a lot of time for POR, I think some very poor defending & decision making from supposedly experienced players really let him down last year (Especially in Omagh) One thing i will say, the team has always played with a fair degree of heart under O Rourke, for example even though they were poor against Wicklow they really gave everything, despite form & limitations to get the draw last year. Again this year after a dreadful first half against Cork, they really caome out and gave their all in the second half.
As good a performance as it was against Kerry, one has to admit Kerrys attitude and appetite would also have to come into questons. I think alot of the new yound players are still finding their feet, you can see that they are starting to find a bit of a balance between defence and attack.
I have been really impressed with Forker, & I think anto duffy has been v good, though he needs to score more. Vernon & Mackin are forming a good partnership & its good to see Donaghy regaining some form. We may not win anything this year, but when Jamie, Haratty & Kernan's come back I think we have the making of a useful team who will put it up to anyone...
Looking forward to the rest of the season... if we beat Mayo we are in with a great chance of keeping our division 1 status.....
I assume it's appropriate to resurrect this thread.
I was looking forward to meeting you in the back door. Unfortuantly you won't be there when we arrive! :D
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 01, 2012, 04:08:39 PM
I assume it's appropriate to resurrect this thread.
Good man Dougal, trust you to resurrect this thread. Not supporting your team today?
No. Couldn't make it. Had to leave the young lad down to Belfast to get a train to the Irish Open. Glad I wasn't there now.
come home agent paddy. your work is done!! ;) :)
LOL
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 01, 2012, 04:31:16 PM
Oisin the first man to say the emperor has no clothes and that is more than POR, PG and BH must also carry the can.
How can a county with an AI winning club turn out with just two players from than club and some not even on the squad?
A question I have repeatedly asked. Some friends from down reckon O'Rourke can be the most stubborn of men. Looks like Grimly has some anti Cross baggage too. Really is time for a rethink and a new start with some of the '02 generation...The Twins? but after Kildare's inept display and the Johnson debacle do not mention Geezer. Was working this morning and couldn't make the game thank god.
Why did POR get the Armagh job in the first place. I'd say there wasn't a county in Ireland that would have let him manage their team, but Armagh did. It baffles me who actually appointed him.
Big Joe back in charge again or would that not go down well ?
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 28, 2011, 10:41:08 PM
I think Armagh people need a reality check. Armagh had an exceptional period over the last decase, but they need to set their sights a bit lower for the next few years.
Look at this comment made back in February 2011 - is it still relevant ?.
Quote from: BennyCake on July 01, 2012, 04:55:09 PM
Why did POR get the Armagh job in the first place. I'd say there wasn't a county in Ireland that would have let him manage their team, but Armagh did. It baffles me who actually appointed him.
I seem to remember that at the time the players were given the opportunity to nominate in a secret ballot and all he got was one nomination.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 01, 2012, 05:55:20 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 01, 2012, 04:55:09 PM
Why did POR get the Armagh job in the first place. I'd say there wasn't a county in Ireland that would have let him manage their team, but Armagh did. It baffles me who actually appointed him.
I seem to remember that at the time the players were given the opportunity to nominate in a secret ballot and all he got was one nomination.
Yes, and the one player who nominated him has since retired. There should be a long list of candidates including:
- McEntees
- McGeeney
- McAlinden
- Grimley
- McGrane
Time for Hughie to get the cheque book out
How easily can PG wash his hands of this debacle? Surely he has to carry his share of the blame along with POR.
The key to Armaghs brighter future lies in the selections processes. Won't matter if we had the Good lord himself at the helm , if we pick ogres instead of footballers then we will be beaten by the majority of teams in Ireland .
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 01, 2012, 04:38:06 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 01, 2012, 04:31:16 PM
Oisin the first man to say the emperor has no clothes and that is more than POR, PG and BH must also carry the can.
How can a county with an AI winning club turn out with just two players from than club and some not even on the squad?
A question I have repeatedly asked. Some friends from down reckon O'Rourke can be the most stubborn of men. Looks like Grimly has some anti Cross baggage too. Really is time for a rethink and a new start with some of the '02 generation...The Twins? but after Kildare's inept display and the Johnson debacle do not mention Geezer. Was working this morning and couldn't make the game thank god.
Maybe I'm being a bit optimistic but I'd reckon Geezer would maybe put a bit more heart into Armagh if he ever got the job - that's if his commitment as a player is anything to go by. The Kildare job was a handy wee number for him to get a feel for IC management and they had some sort of tangible improvement from before he came.
Thankfully I did not have to witness today's embarrassing showing in person as I decided before the start of the season that I would no longer travel to watch Armagh senior games.
I was all for giving POR a chance from the outset which he has had and in the overall scheme of things has failed to take. He did bring some success albeit in the NFL, however his inability to form us into a formidable championship side will be his downfall.
I think a reality check is also needed for much of our support. I would be absolutely delighted with a QF but the way some people in the county get on you'd think the team was up there with Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Cork etc. and that we should be knocking on the door each year.
McEntee and McGeeney as joint managers would be my ideal replacements for the existing management team.
Inevitable now that he goes. I would worry about the appointment process after the last debacle. I would like to see Tony McEntee get the job.
No way back for Paddy O'Rourke now defeats like today are becoming all to common.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 01, 2012, 05:55:20 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 01, 2012, 04:55:09 PM
Why did POR get the Armagh job in the first place. I'd say there wasn't a county in Ireland that would have let him manage their team, but Armagh did. It baffles me who actually appointed him.
I seem to remember that at the time the players were given the opportunity to nominate in a secret ballot and all he got was one nomination.
That about sums it up. Nothing more needs to be said.
Apparently he's resigned according to Thomas Niblock on twitter
Paddy I am led to believe has left his post with immediate effect
Quote
Paddy I am led to believe has left his post with immediate effect
What time did he leave. Half time perhaps?
QuoteThe key to Armaghs brighter future lies in the selections processes. Won't matter if we had the Good lord himself at the helm , if we pick ogres instead of footballers then we will be beaten by the majority of teams in Ireland
Tis true most Armagh people are ugly fcukers but you can't go using that as an excuse for lack of success on the field.
Quote from: naka on July 01, 2012, 08:25:04 PM
Paddy I am led to believe has left his post with immediate effect
Just heard the same from Q101 West's, Paddy Hunter.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 01, 2012, 08:53:30 PM
Quote
Paddy I am led to believe has left his post with immediate effect
What time did he leave. Half time perhaps?
No need for that. The man did his best. Probably best that he quids now.
Interesting that some of the Armagh "supporters" calling for his head weren't even at the match.
Ross and DJ are available :)
Some weight of Jamie Clarke s shoulders you mean , he carried the team 1-3 out of the 1-7
[.
Interesting that some of the Armagh "supporters" calling for his head weren't even at the match.
[/quote]
lecale the only ones at present giving him any support are his own county, if he is so good sure he can take the mourne over when james steps down in a couple of years
today was desperate, as was tyrone last year as was derry , as was monaghan two years ago, ffs we dont ask for much but we do expect a coherent plan, at one stage we had 5 mid fielders on the pitch( at least they are supposed to be midfielders) and still couldnt win it
Look at Spain tonight at one stage 11 players from two clubs. Armagh only named one cross player to start today. Enough said about the selection process.
armagh county board has just announced that por will not be seeking any further term as armagh manager :o
No one doubts Paddy O'Rourke did his best and he seems like a decent sort of fella but he was never the right man for the job.
Most Armagh supporters were shocked upon hearing of his appointment initially but despite the occasional good result/performance it was usually followed by a poor one.
Who will take over now? Will Paul Grimley get the job?
Most supporters are realistic to know that Armagh are a long way off the top but we have the best club team in Ireland and there have been good minor treams over the last 4 years (although this hasn't followed through to U21) so there is no doubt we have underacheived the last few years.
Heaven and earth should be moved to get TonyMcEntee in. He may have his sights set on 3 in a row but it is worth trying. Ive said it before there are not better players in Donegal than Armagh, it is just that they have a system and style of play that comes from temanager that is effective.
Case in point, here is the Donegal team hammered by Armagh 2 years ago. 11 players started yesterdays game v Tyrone.
Donegal – P Durcan, P McGrath, N McGee, K Lacey, M Maguire, B Dunnion, F McGlynn, N Gallagher (0-1), K Cassidy, M McHugh (0-1), R Kavanagh, D Walsh, C McFadden (0-1), M Murphy (0-7, 4f), C Dunne. Subs – E Wade for McGrath, E McGee for Maguire, C Toye for Dunne, A Hanlon (0-1) for McFadden
Blame can't all be laid on POR. Obviously he is responsible to some degree, but the County board, players and other coaching staff need to have a look at themselves too.
I think the county board especially need to rethink how they deal with appointing management, it's been pretty farcical since JK left the post. I'd hold them more responsible than any other party regarding the current state of Armagh football - a few half decent performances in league and Tyrone in USFC don't hide the fact that we're in dire straits as a county.
The potential is there, it's a case of getting everyone on the same hymn sheet, which hasn't been evident since before big Joe left.
Quote from: Orangemac on July 01, 2012, 10:20:33 PM
No one doubts Paddy O'Rourke did his best and he seems like a decent sort of fella but he was never the right man for the job.
Most Armagh supporters were shocked upon hearing of his appointment initially but despite the occasional good result/performance it was usually followed by a poor one.
Who will take over now? Will Paul Grimley get the job?
Most supporters are realistic to know that Armagh are a long way off the top but we have the best club team in Ireland and there have been good minor treams over the last 4 years (although this hasn't followed through to U21) so there is no doubt we have underacheived the last few years.
Heaven and earth should be moved to get TonyMcEntee in. He may have his sights set on 3 in a row but it is worth trying. Ive said it before there are not better players in Donegal than Armagh, it is just that they have a system and style of play that comes from temanager that is effective.
Case in point, here is the Donegal team hammered by Armagh 2 years ago. 11 players started yesterdays game v Tyrone.
Donegal – P Durcan, P McGrath, N McGee, K Lacey, M Maguire, B Dunnion, F McGlynn, N Gallagher (0-1), K Cassidy, M McHugh (0-1), R Kavanagh, D Walsh, C McFadden (0-1), M Murphy (0-7, 4f), C Dunne. Subs – E Wade for McGrath, E McGee for Maguire, C Toye for Dunne, A Hanlon (0-1) for McFadden
[/b]
Exactly. Where do people think these great Donegal footballers sprung from the past 2 years? It's very lazy to say we haven't the playing resources.
Tony Mc or someone of that ilk with fresh ideas and who can get the players playing to a style of play and with a purpose.
Quote from: SHEEDY on July 01, 2012, 04:33:43 PM
come home agent paddy. your work is done!! ;) :)
I love working out who is who ;)
Quote from: dundrumite on July 01, 2012, 10:33:59 PM
Quote from: SHEEDY on July 01, 2012, 04:33:43 PM
come home agent paddy. your work is done!! ;) :)
I love working out who is who ;)
when the f**k is agent grimley going to be pulled?
Quote from: NaomhBridAbú on July 01, 2012, 10:52:16 PM
Quote from: dundrumite on July 01, 2012, 10:33:59 PM
Quote from: SHEEDY on July 01, 2012, 04:33:43 PM
come home agent paddy. your work is done!! ;) :)
I love working out who is who ;)
when the f**k is agent grimley going to be pulled?
I mean who a poster is..
What is everyone going on about we need this manager to get a team playing a certain way. Lads the game is complicated, we have a hell of a lot of super footballers in Armagh at club level. It's the transition for club to county where it's all going wrong. We have a crop oh young players there with loads of ability but they are getting maybe a 20 min run out in a national league game and some are never seen again and are set on the bench. They are also restricted from playing club football for weeks on end. A managers should be appointed to get players playing certain ways r styles. The manager should come in , look what's available through a series of trials that are open and transparent. These trials should last 5 or 6 weeks and all should attend on an even foot. The selectors and manager then selects his panel and coaches these players and encourages them to grow and play to their strengths. An insider is needed, one that has played and is well intouch with grassroots club players. O'Rourkes mistake was that he came in and went with too many of the established players, he never really sought players and from someone that has witnessed and played against these lads the current squad r by no means the best footballers in the county. Big strong men but IMO a proper mix of strength, skill and raw ability is what we need. Must also be stressed though that POR is a GAA man through and through and he did infect do what he felt was his best. So for that he deserves respect and in many ways thanks.
Bummer,I'm already in negotiations for the Spurs job.It's between me and AVB.Am going to present your very informative analysis of my achievements etc to Daniel Levy,that should swing it, ;D
I hope that we can persuade someone like mc entee to take charge, as a south Armagh man I actually think that cross like to foster the seige mentality that the rest of the county is against them, this is untrue, i am proud to have played for my club but I love my county dearly and for me 2002 stands up there with the birth of my kids as one of the happiest days of my life.
That is why some of us don't buy in to hoping cross win the andy merrigan each year,
It doesn't help the county . we need themfor Armagh playing in February and march each year for the county.
Until someone addresses what Oisin calls "the Cross thing", we will continue to struggle. My analogy with Spain earlier was that you don't necessarily need players from a huge spread of Clubs to make a successful County Team. It beggars belief that only Jamie Clarke was named in the team for yesterday's match. I'm not from Cross but it also appears to me that whilst other players are given extended runs in the team to make an impression, Cross players such as Stephen and Tony Kernan have been put in and expected to produce straight away. Is this coming from the County Board or from clubs? Accepted that Cross don't sometimes indear themselves by not making players available in times of need, but there is not one club in the county that wouldn't put their own interests first. The difference is that in the case of most County panelists they are the best player(s) in their club and can dictate to the club to a degree. It would be harder to nail down a place in the Cross first 15 at the moment, than in the County 15. Isn't it also Ironic that hurling with 8 clubs and a fraction of the investment can produce successful teams and demonstrate progress, but that's another argument.
Jonny Hanratty started yesterday. James Morgan & Aaron Kernan would likely have started, but for injury. Tony Kernan come on.
How many other Cross men would've started?
Paul Hearty should still be #1, but he's retired.
Paul Kernan would be a back up full back IMO - if fit.
Paul McKeown would be a back up corner back, if he chose to make himself available.
David McKenna was my big hope for commanding midfielder (fitness seems to have hampered his selection/commitment)
Aaron Cunningham was scathing yesterday on twitter IMO should be a panelist, eventially taking a half forward position... not immediately!
Franny Hanratty was on the panel - wouldn't start though?
Stephen Kernan chose not to be involved. - if was still involved over the years, he'd be #11
Quote from: Goats Do Shave on July 02, 2012, 10:58:52 AM
Jonny Hanratty started yesterday. James Morgan & Aaron Kernan would likely have started, but for injury. Tony Kernan come on.
How many other Cross men would've started?
Paul Hearty should still be #1, but he's retired.
Paul Kernan would be a back up full back IMO - if fit.
Paul McKeown would be a back up corner back, if he chose to make himself available.
David McKenna was my big hope for commanding midfielder (fitness seems to have hampered his selection/commitment)
Aaron Cunningham was scathing yesterday on twitter IMO should be a panelist, eventially taking a half forward position... not immediately!
Franny Hanratty was on the panel - wouldn't start though?
Stephen Kernan chose not to be involved. - if was still involved over the years, he'd be #11
The "Cross thing" is a complete red herring IMHO unless somebody else has better information than me. The nailed on class acts from Cross are getting on.....no problem. We then have a list of excellent club players who have not had the opportunity to prove themselves due to the clash in the spring between the league and the final throes of the AI club championship. What do they want the county management to do? Is Aaron Cunningham so much better than Anto Duffy that he can start tweeting about it? The very fact that he takes to twitter to put the boot in doesn't reflect well on him. I think he needs several league matches to prove himself better. That opportunity is not there. The same argument is there with James Morgan....
Other than that I agree with all of the above.....Franny Hanratty didn't start a big percentage of Cross's run to the AI this year....how can he be put forward as an alternative in the county set up?
Think some of the Cross boys take the siege mentality thing too far. In an ideal world there would have been more of them involved yesterday but I don't really think anyone has been over looked.
Quote from: Goats Do Shave on July 02, 2012, 10:58:52 AM
Jonny Hanratty started yesterday. James Morgan & Aaron Kernan would likely have started, but for injury. Tony Kernan come on.
How many other Cross men would've started?
Paul Hearty should still be #1, but he's retired. Forget about him.
Paul Kernan would be a back up full back IMO - if fit. Agree.
Paul McKeown would be a back up corner back, if he chose to make himself available. Forget about him, seemingly not interested.
David McKenna was my big hope for commanding midfielder (fitness seems to have hampered his selection/commitment) Struggle to see what Titch can offer at IC level, that other existing panelists don't already offer?
Aaron Cunningham was scathing yesterday on twitter IMO should be a panelist, eventially taking a half forward position... not immediately! Jury still out on him IMO. Again another player that certainly wouldn't look out of place on the panel but what else does he offer that say A Duffy, Forker etc don't already have? Apart from being unavailable for preseason and league.
Franny Hanratty was on the panel - wouldn't start though? Not IC standard IMO.
Stephen Kernan chose not to be involved. - if was still involved over the years, he'd be #11 Agree, hopefully Armagh CB choose a management team that will not only have boys like this available and interested, but also willing to run through brick walls.
Beat me to it Mackers. There's lads like Nippy Swift and Stefan Forker that are miles ahead of some of the boys on the county panel as well as some of those 'overlooked' Cross lads.
IMO there are lads that aren't even in the top 3 players in their club on the county panel. That can't be right!
So are we saying there is no Cross thing? Granted Cunningham would have been better of not tweeting, but surely any County setup worth its salt would work with a successful club team to the benefit of all. Granted also Cross have their part to play here too. Question: did Stephen Kernan opt out? I had heard he wasn't asked in the first place.
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 02, 2012, 12:27:42 PM
So are we saying there is no Cross thing? Granted Cunningham would have been better of not tweeting, but surely any County setup worth its salt would work with a successful club team to the benefit of all. Granted also Cross have their part to play here too. Question: did Stephen Kernan opt out? I had heard he wasn't asked in the first place.
Assuming Cross win the Ulster title next year what do you suggest that the next county manager does? Does he force the Cross players to play league games? Tony McEntee ain't going to stand for that. Does he parachute untried players into a championship team? POR can be questioned over many things but his hands were tied on this issue.
The answer is in my post...co operation?
Getting on the county team is a bit like getting into university, the hard part is getting in, then it is nearly impossible to get kicked out. There are many living on past seasons on the Armagh team, a totally fresh manager is needed and asap to gave them time to choose and build a team.
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 02, 2012, 12:41:09 PM
The answer is in my post...co operation?
No it's not.....how do they co-operate?
A big part of the problem is the GAA Club fixtures calendar. The 2012 All-Ireland club series should be completely finished in 2012, it shouldn't be running on until March 2013. If Cross win Ulster again this year then it won't make a difference who the new Armagh manager is - they'll only have about 2 months blending the Cross players into the Armagh team in preparation for the championship.
Quote from: mackers on July 02, 2012, 12:52:07 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 02, 2012, 12:41:09 PM
The answer is in my post...co operation?
No it's not.....how do they co-operate?
Crossmaglen have been quite clear on this issue for a decade and a half. There will be no co-operation and Crossmaglen players will not play for Armagh while Rangers remain in the championship, bar the odd exceptional situation where a player may need games returning from injury. I don't blame them for that stance in the slightest, they are right to do what in best for their club but it is hindering Armagh's development.
Of course, one way around the problem is for another Armagh team to beat them. In the unlikely event that Cullyhanna managed that, don't worry, we wouldn't do anything stupid like winning Ulster!
Now that POR is gone does that mean the whole management team is gone so a new manager can pick his own or will Paul Grimley automatically take over?
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 02, 2012, 01:14:27 PM
Quote from: mackers on July 02, 2012, 12:52:07 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 02, 2012, 12:41:09 PM
The answer is in my post...co operation?
No it's not.....how do they co-operate?
Crossmaglen have been quite clear on this issue for a decade and a half. There will be no co-operation and Crossmaglen players will not play for Armagh while Rangers remain in the championship, bar the odd exceptional situation where a player may need games returning from injury. I don't blame them for that stance in the slightest, they are right to do what in best for their club but it is hindering Armagh's development.
Of course, one way around the problem is for another Armagh team to beat them. In the unlikely event that Cullyhanna managed that, don't worry, we wouldn't do anything stupid like winning Ulster!
But that's exactly the point Cross need to step up and make some players available. They play challenges during that time so injury shouldn't be an issue. Also it wouldn't need to be every player for every game.
I would agree that the championship needs to finish by the end of January at the latest.
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 02, 2012, 02:26:15 PM
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 02, 2012, 01:14:27 PM
Quote from: mackers on July 02, 2012, 12:52:07 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 02, 2012, 12:41:09 PM
The answer is in my post...co operation?
No it's not.....how do they co-operate?
Crossmaglen have been quite clear on this issue for a decade and a half. There will be no co-operation and Crossmaglen players will not play for Armagh while Rangers remain in the championship, bar the odd exceptional situation where a player may need games returning from injury. I don't blame them for that stance in the slightest, they are right to do what in best for their club but it is hindering Armagh's development.
Of course, one way around the problem is for another Armagh team to beat them. In the unlikely event that Cullyhanna managed that, don't worry, we wouldn't do anything stupid like winning Ulster!
But that's exactly the point Cross need to step up and make some players available. They play challenges during that time so injury shouldn't be an issue. Also it wouldn't need to be every player for every game.
I would agree that the championship needs to finish by the end of January at the latest.
What do you mean Cross need to step up? Why the hell should they? If anything the 2 championship matches have shown thaty Cross players have fitted in nicely to the county set up and if anything are above many of the other players. The reality is that there are players who are currently playing who are not up to standard at the minute. That is either due to an ineptitude on their own part or on the part of the current management. I would put it down to a mixture of both. Its not Cross thay need to step up to the mark.
Having the AI champions in your county might be problem, but some of the comment here is off the mark.
The AI club cannot be run off before Christmas, this would require all club championships cleared in mid September and that would prematurely end the season.
What happened yesterday didn't have anything to do with Cross' in my opinion. Decent players, with minor and U-21 success, did not show any spirit or heart. The Cross contingent did their bit. As noted here, the absence of Cross players should give others their chance, yet people here are of the opinion that this is not happening.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 02, 2012, 03:00:56 PM
Having the AI champions in your county might be problem, but some of the comment here is off the mark.
The AI club cannot be run off before Christmas, this would require all club championships cleared in mid September and that would prematurely end the season.
What happened yesterday didn't have anything to do with Cross' in my opinion. Decent players, with minor and U-21 success, did not show any spirit or heart. The Cross contingent did their bit. As noted here, the absence of Cross players should give others their chance, yet people here are of the opinion that this is not happening.
The point I'm making is that the whole GAA fixture structure needs revamping, with the intercounty season ending earlier and proper provision being made for clubs.
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 02, 2012, 03:08:34 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 02, 2012, 03:00:56 PM
Having the AI champions in your county might be problem, but some of the comment here is off the mark.
The AI club cannot be run off before Christmas, this would require all club championships cleared in mid September and that would prematurely end the season.
What happened yesterday didn't have anything to do with Cross' in my opinion. Decent players, with minor and U-21 success, did not show any spirit or heart. The Cross contingent did their bit. As noted here, the absence of Cross players should give others their chance, yet people here are of the opinion that this is not happening.
The point I'm making is that the whole GAA fixture structure needs revamping, with the intercounty season ending earlier and proper provision being made for clubs.
But hold on a second, the AI club championship affects 4 clubs and 4 counties. Why should the whole system be overhauled on that basis. Over the years in hurling in aprticular you have had a number of club teams that have been consistently strong, Ballyhale, Newtownshandrum, Portumna, Athenry, and these county teams have been able to blend in the players year in year out and I know for a fact that they weren't playing county hurling most of the time. The was a situation created way back at the start by the county board and the team management of the time which is still causing the problem. Cross have tried I the past to be co-operative but it was thrown back in our faces. This has hardened attitudes and as a result there is less leeway. Don't be looking to Oliver Plunkett Park for the answers, the answer is elsewhere.
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 02, 2012, 03:08:34 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 02, 2012, 03:00:56 PM
Having the AI champions in your county might be problem, but some of the comment here is off the mark.
The AI club cannot be run off before Christmas, this would require all club championships cleared in mid September and that would prematurely end the season.
What happened yesterday didn't have anything to do with Cross' in my opinion. Decent players, with minor and U-21 success, did not show any spirit or heart. The Cross contingent did their bit. As noted here, the absence of Cross players should give others their chance, yet people here are of the opinion that this is not happening.
The point I'm making is that the whole GAA fixture structure needs revamping, with the intercounty season ending earlier and proper provision being made for clubs.
So the GAA should change its fixture structure to benefit a few counties ?
Didnt seem to have much of an effect in 2005 when Armagh were at the business end of the champioship ?
"Benefit" is hardly the right word, ensuring fairness a more reasonable description. There are many justifications for an overhaul of the GAA fixture list, this is merely one of them.
Sorry have i missed something here, BCB what was thrown back in the face of cross?
Am i the only one on here that thinks crossmaglens success SHOULD be a positive to Armagh's county set up.
it is just going to take a some way of getting a system that suits all parties.
Quote from: Bensars on July 02, 2012, 03:17:46 PM
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 02, 2012, 03:08:34 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 02, 2012, 03:00:56 PM
Having the AI champions in your county might be problem, but some of the comment here is off the mark.
The AI club cannot be run off before Christmas, this would require all club championships cleared in mid September and that would prematurely end the season.
What happened yesterday didn't have anything to do with Cross' in my opinion. Decent players, with minor and U-21 success, did not show any spirit or heart. The Cross contingent did their bit. As noted here, the absence of Cross players should give others their chance, yet people here are of the opinion that this is not happening.
The point I'm making is that the whole GAA fixture structure needs revamping, with the intercounty season ending earlier and proper provision being made for clubs.
So the GAA should change its fixture structure to benefit a few counties ?
Didnt seem to have much of an effect in 2005 when Armagh were at the business end of the champioship ?
In fairness Bensars that point is irrelevant for two reasons. The first is that Cross had had a few seasons where there weren't competing in AI club finals so their players were not tied up for inter-county league campaigns for years on end. Secondly, the McEntees, Oisin, Francie etc. were established inter county players. Currently you could only say that Aaron Kernan and Jamie Clarke fit into that bracket. There are a few of their players that
might be able to make the step up but the county management are unable to have a decent look at them due to their continued success on the club scene.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 02, 2012, 03:17:14 PM
Over the years in hurling in aprticular you have had a number of club teams that have been consistently strong, Ballyhale, Newtownshandrum, Portumna, Athenry, and these county teams have been able to blend in the players year in year out and I know for a fact that they weren't playing county hurling most of the time.
So how can we learn from this bc? What were they doing that we aren't?
There is a 13 day rule for IC players playing with their clubs, should we have this reversed that Cross players can play for their county up to 13 days before a championship match with Cross?
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 02, 2012, 02:58:45 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 02, 2012, 02:26:15 PM
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 02, 2012, 01:14:27 PM
Quote from: mackers on July 02, 2012, 12:52:07 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 02, 2012, 12:41:09 PM
The answer is in my post...co operation?
No it's not.....how do they co-operate?
Crossmaglen have been quite clear on this issue for a decade and a half. There will be no co-operation and Crossmaglen players will not play for Armagh while Rangers remain in the championship, bar the odd exceptional situation where a player may need games returning from injury. I don't blame them for that stance in the slightest, they are right to do what in best for their club but it is hindering Armagh's development.
Of course, one way around the problem is for another Armagh team to beat them. In the unlikely event that Cullyhanna managed that, don't worry, we wouldn't do anything stupid like winning Ulster!
But that's exactly the point Cross need to step up and make some players available. They play challenges during that time so injury shouldn't be an issue. Also it wouldn't need to be every player for every game.
I would agree that the championship needs to finish by the end of January at the latest.
What do you mean Cross need to step up? Why the hell should they? If anything the 2 championship matches have shown thaty Cross players have fitted in nicely to the county set up and if anything are above many of the other players. The reality is that there are players who are currently playing who are not up to standard at the minute. That is either due to an ineptitude on their own part or on the part of the current management. I would put it down to a mixture of both. Its not Cross thay need to step up to the mark.
Look I'm not having a go at Cross and you are right. Look at my posts on this issue i've been calling for the likes of The Kernans and Hannratyy and Cunningham to be included. The excuse is always they aren't available to March...is there a compromise or are you confirming the allegations of others elsewhere that in Cross it's only Cross that matters and the County comes way down the list?
As McConville has said . . . surely 3 months is long enough to prepare a team for Championship! Surely the Cross lads are already fit at that stage so it's just a matter of fitting them into a gameplan? Or is that to simplisitc?
Also there surely has to be more Cross men on that team!
QuoteSurely the Cross lads are already fit at that stage so it's just a matter of fitting them into a gameplan? Or is that to simplisitc?
If there was a gameplan and Cross' players weren't fitting into it, that would be one thing. But there has not seemed to be a robust game plan in the sense that the players who were there all along don't seem to know what to do.
As I said, the problems yesterday had little enough to do with Cross'.
Who are you referring to TYP
QuoteWho are you referring to TYP
Clue
(http://www.morganfuels.com/EN/images/logo.jpg)
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 02, 2012, 07:32:52 PM
I know that I will withdraw my monthly payment if there is a continuation with any remnants of the current management team allowed to go forward.
Do you honestly think any county board will worry about you stopping a direct debit?
I'd say the county board would be unhappy if a lot of people cut off their debits. Many Armagh people feel things could be better.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 02, 2012, 08:35:00 PM
I'd say the county board would be unhappy if a lot of people cut off their debits. Many Armagh people feel things could be better.
Spot on. Actually I suspect that cutting direct debits is one of the few ways that those in charge will sit up and take notice.
Quote from: Onion Bag on July 02, 2012, 08:11:04 PM
Who are you referring to TYP
Ah TYP, give OB a better clue than that. It's TF.
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 02, 2012, 07:32:52 PM
If there was any interest in building a team based on the greatest sides in the country then the availability of players from the end of march for a game in June would not be a problem. The others would have a chance to claim a place in the early part of the year and the system of play would ensure that the Cross players would want and could be fitted into the squad and team.
Unless the whole management is cleaned out then there will be no hope of moving on. There is one South Armagh man who can put manners on the county board and we can only ope that he is able to wield the power of the cheque book by calling the shots for the money he provides. I know that I will withdraw my monthly payment if there is a continuation with any remnants of the current management team allowed to go forward.
Right, for a start this suggestion that there should be no problem with the Cross lads only being available from the end of March is nonsense. By that time nearly all of the competitive football at county level through McKenna Cup and League has been played.
As regards HM ffs it was him that was instrumental in bringing Paddy O'Rourke in in the first place. I see HM as part of the problem not part of the solution. There has to be something wrong when the team sponsor is carrying the footballs onto the field before a challenge match. You don't see the CX of Vodafone hanging round the Dublin dug out.
Quote from: screenexile on July 02, 2012, 06:43:54 PM
As McConville has said . . . surely 3 months is long enough to prepare a team for Championship! Surely the Cross lads are already fit at that stage so it's just a matter of fitting them into a gameplan? Or is that to simplisitc?
Also there surely has to be more Cross men on that team!
It's not so much the 3 months but the lack of competitive game time during that 3 months for the non established county players from Cross who have the potential to stake a claim. Cross's success is a mixed bag for the county. There's a fantastic template for success that the county should be tapping in to and the absence of Cross players during the year should force others to step up and take their chance to shine. With one or two exceptions this hasn't happened though and a number of the Cross contingent don't get to show their worth during the league. In an ideal situation i'd love to see the new management have a full quota of players to work with from very early in the year, and get the message across very simply early on about the way they want to play. That needs to be reinforced, week after week repeatedly until it becomes second nature to the players.
Quote from: Carbery on August 06, 2011, 09:48:08 PM
Quote from: ck on August 06, 2011, 06:56:23 PM
Quote from: Armamike on August 06, 2011, 04:26:14 PM
Good article by Peter Mackem this week in the observer. Talks a lot of sense on the bigger thinking thats needed, rather than focusing solely on the manager.
What were the main points?
Armagh must act now or face total decline
By Peter Makem
There's a difference between the problem of Armagh senior football and the problem of the current management.
In an article two years ago and largely repeated this time last year, I proposed that whoever became the new Armagh senior manager was on a loser if totally fresh foundations were not laid beforehand. I proposed that the problem was bigger than any manager and we were fooling ourselves unless competent people within the county sat down and took long and serious stock of the situation to undo the decline that had set in since the demise of the All-Ireland team around 2004-2005. We needed to go back behind the starting line, create a whole new system, develop players in a new manner and push back the boundaries of the game even further.
I also pointed out in last year's article that if the above development was not undertaken, we would be no further on in twelve months time, nor in the year after nor the year following that and so on. In other words the decline would continue, and that we would end up where we were in the mid-nineties and indeed back to the mid-seventies. That's exactly where we are now.
The past few championships have seen the tide go out as far as it did in those days. But even then, it was only marginally a problem of a manager. As a general rule going away back into the sixties, the managers were competent people who knew their football, Paddy O'Hara, Jimmy Whan, Mal McEvoy and so on and there were plenty of good and very good players around. That was not the problem. There was nothing to manage. There was no structure or order of things, and it was a good night when five or six turned up for training at all – with the dressing room before a match full of strangers to each other.
By structure does not mean an assembly of training and weight "specialists", specialist coaches, psychologists, stats people, and so on. Armagh has all that now and is going nowhere. In fact every county in Ireland has such an array of staff but again, it makes no difference to the vast majority. All the psychology in the world, all the weights programming and huddles is useless if the player doesn't know what to do when he gets the ball, or where to take a pass. All the physical fitness in the world is useless in the long run if players have no system to perform in.
Structure is a basic simple thing and the approach to it will vary from county to county depending on how high they genuinely aim. To achieve a new structure in Armagh – as the old one is dead and gone – it means first of all clearing the decks totally of everybody involved including the players and management setup. Next, people of experience and thought in the county will sit down and work out how the game can be brought to a new level through a new system of play. They will then carefully select players of potential – some of whom are already on the panel – and fit these into an effective system of football where everybody knows their role and all it geared toward the maximum scoring facility. It will take five or six months from now to do this preparatory work involving setting up a system of individual training to bring the player toward a new level of physical and mental ability – but only after he knows his role in the grand design. The bringing in of a manger is part of this new structure and system, in other words, he is the pilot of the new ship that is built.
CANNOT HIDE BEHIND EXCUSES
But although there has been no development of the Armagh team under his management, Paddy O'Rourke is not the source of our ills. The problem is not managerial but structural. Paddy had limited success with Down and there was no evidence that he would have any more with Armagh, especially an Armagh with little momentum left. The mindset that made the appointment instead of concentrating on the creation of a whole new system and structure is the problem. Armagh were not facing up to the deep realities of what was wrong and instead threw the job at somebody and get that much off their backs. But that merely of course, merely deepened the problem.
The real issue at present is the very mindset that allows the current situation to continue. All the underage work – which is very substantial and well organised including the Minor achievements of recent years – disintegrates when things reach senior level because the very thing it aspires to, that is, the senior team, is a void, emptiness. There are good structures everywhere in Armagh except at the very place when they are most required for ultimate development. It's like a hypothetical system in education where children go to primary school into secondary, get their 'A' Levels or other qualifications but find the Third Level institutions like Queen's and Jordanstown no longer offer degrees.
Accordingly there is a real sense that O'Rourke is a scapegoat and a cover for deeper failures in Armagh to address the points I mention. The bottom line, and it seems to be obvious to everybody, is that the County Board simply cannot continue with present setup or dress it up in some other way as this is not facing up to the reality of the problem.
Decline sets in to very institution and it goes on and on unless deliberately stopped. This is why every so often, a totally new momentum has to be created, a new and original system thought out and the whole train set in fresh motion. To realistically aim for the Sam Maguire in the near future Armagh requires the creation of a team to do extensive groundwork as indicated in new ways of team building and training before even thinking of a manger. As things stand, it doesn't matter who we appoint as there is no system to manage. But under a new system, the appointment is critical.
What is happening is all wrong. Promising players throughout the League have just vanished from the scene, one after the other. Our talented midfielders have not progressed at all nor is there proper cover in this department. Younger players from the Minor grade have not appeared. The team keeps changing from game to game and Stephen McDonnell, lone survivor of 2002 and one of Armagh's three or four greatest footballers of all time, is still the central figure on the team. Nobody appears to know what anybody else is doing on the field and things change from game to game. This is all because a total halt was not called to the drift some years ago, and a totally new system introduced.
Talk of maintaining Division One status as a sign of progress is nonsense. Many of the teams in Division One because they can stay there without breaking sweat in a competition that in reality is a series of challenge games that confers no status at all. It is not like the English Premiership where the league is the championship for the GAA; the All-Ireland champions could have Division Two status. If Armagh's Division One status is a sign of progress why are we collapsing in the championship?
Nor can we hide behind the usual waffle that "the players are just not there." Only last year Armagh gave Donegal a bad beating at Crossmaglen, a Donegal side that contained twelve of the players who are now in the All-Ireland semi-final. I met Brian McEniff over month ago in Bundoran and he said that Donegal were now a very different proposition and was confident they would win in Ulster at least, that Jim McGuinness had restructured the whole scene, that Donegal went back behind to the drawing board an took stock as to what had been going wrong for the past nineteen years and moved in a new direction.
It's never a question of the talent available. It's what you do with the talent available and Armagh are drifting year by year toward disintegration at senior level – not because of lack of talent – but because of lack of organisation.
Tyrone had players as good in the past as now but they were never remotely as organised. Their system has remained unchanged for the past ten yeas and new players just fit into it. Kevin Heffernan won an All-Ireland with Dublin in 1974 in his first year as manager with a group of players who struggled earlier in the National League of that year. He created a system and moulded the talents available into a superb team where not six months previous people were saying that "the players were simply not there". From a superficial perspective it always appears that success comes because a group of talented players arrive on the scene at the same time and the logic of tis is that you have to wait on this to happen for success. All the evidence points to the opposite. Success comes through the intensity of organising the planning and in the case of teams who have no tradition; it involves creating a totally new system of play and approach.
Armagh did this to win the All-Ireland in 2002 – which was perfected by Tyrone to win their three All-Irelands – and adopted by every other successful team including Kerry and taken to a new intensity recently by Donegal.
The proof of this is the great innovation by Down in the late fifties, a county that had scant tradition at senior level and whose mentors in 1957 decided to stop waiting on the fates and take things into their own hands by working out how to create an All-Ireland winning team. They build the players available into an idea, into a totally innovate structure of training and teamwork so that it appeared in hindsight that Down were lucky that a group of exceptional players just happened to arrive at the one time. But the truth is that there was only a blank sheet in 1957 when the new structures were set up and not an All-Ireland winning player in sight. It was a supreme victory of organisation and innovation.
However, Down went into a slow decline as the sixties progressed culminating in a serious defeat by Cavan in the Ulster final of 1967. It was at this point that mentors decided to sit down and take stock and find out what had gone wrong and to end the drift. So they brought out the blank sheet again, took back the best of the old team of 60/61 merged with largely members of the Minor team of two years previous and began a fresh momentum with a new system of play to end the drift. The following year they won the National League and the Sam Maguire.
COUNTY BOARD NO CHOICE
This is a much darker hour for the Armagh senior team than we imagine. The truth is this, that the powers that be have no choice but to do something radical regarding the critical situation at present, and a patchwork job, which is always the temptation, will merely mock the present generation of up and coming footballers who want to represent us at the highest level of completion.
To repeat, Armagh will continue to drift at senior level, moving deeper and deeper into the fog of the bad old times unless we go back behind the starting line with a blank sheet and work out a totally new enterprise. There is absolutely no hope without this.
We did it twice before in the mid seventies and the mid nineties and we have a solemn duty to do it again for the dignity and pride of Armagh and for the thousands of supporters and the new generation of footballers who all long for a return to the glorious days.
INSPIRED
I am always inspired by the heroic figure of former chairman Tommy Lynch back in 1974 when single handily, lit Horatio on the bridge, he held Armagh together in their darkest hour, and initiated the revival of the county team in one of the great acts of leadership in the county's history.
Conversely, I always feel bad when I think of the Armagh team of 1961 whom I saw as a boy narrowly losing the Ulster final 2-10 to 1-10 to All-Ireland champions Down at Casement Park, and still cannot forget the lost potential of that outstanding group of footballers who had the class to be All-Ireland champions the following year instead of being allowed to slide into oblivion.
I remember giving a talk at the O'Fiaich Library a few years ago to a group that included many of this team. I had one question for them. What happened the following year? Why did they disintegrate whereas they should have been primed to win the 1962 All-Ireland which was there for the taking? No one was saying much, but the real reason I suggested was that they were allowed to disintegrate. No genuine effort was made to sit everybody down, take stock of what went wrong, work out deeply what was needed in the team and plan a new assault on the coming championships. I looked down the hall and saw Kevin Halfpenny, Jimmy Whan, Harry Loughran, Johnny McGeary, Harry Hoy, Felix McKnight and the others who formed that side, and one thought arrived that would not go away – "We let that generation down". I remember standing on the podium while a debate went on realising that the say was true of the Armagh senior players of the thirties and forties who did not win an Ulster title and were narrowly beaten by Cavan or Monaghan time and time again. The county let them down as well. A good measure of justice was done to the footballers of the early fifties with two Ulster's and an All-Ireland appearance and efforts made to develop the minors of '49. But the 1953 side quickly disintegrated and apart from the single promise of 1961, several generations of footballers were allowed to drift into oblivion, into a barren age that lasted a quarter of a century until the mid seventies.
So as a new generation of Armagh players begin to knock at the door of destiny, I hope that we will be true to them and that somebody down the years ahead will not sit down and lift their pen to write – "We let that generation down".
Taken from www.armaghgaa.net
as above
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 30, 2011, 09:59:50 PM
Lot of nonsense on this thread from both sides. Paddy is doing a job and doing it well. He`ll get another year at least.
mmooo...
Quote from: All of a Sludden on July 02, 2012, 08:19:34 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 02, 2012, 07:32:52 PM
I know that I will withdraw my monthly payment if there is a continuation with any remnants of the current management team allowed to go forward.
Do you honestly think any county board will worry about you stopping a direct debit?
Looks like you are about to save a few quid. ;) ::)
Quote from: Take Your Points on July 02, 2012, 07:32:52 PM
I know that I will withdraw my monthly payment if there is a continuation with any remnants of the current management team allowed to go forward.
Indeed. :D
Will the prodigal son return? You may have to increase those monthly payments if he does, especially now that your sugar daddy has moved his money to Louth.
Prodical son? Nah.. Mcalindens the man