Margaret Thatcher....

[LCohen]

'The idea that partition was anti-democratic is absurd'.

So, if Derry wished to secede from the Union, along with Fermanagh and South Tyrone, then it would be fine?

I'm not against the border changing to reflect democratic will.

I'm not against counties being split.

SF want a single vote at a 6 county level - all or nothing. They are not going to win that any time soon and are not going to go for any further re-drawing of the border.

[LCohen]

As yes Fear ón Srath Bán you should always ignore any contary opinion that contains a typo. Its how one demonstrates maturity and illustratse the integrity of one's argument.

Nally Stand's claims on population movement seem crazed and demented. Others have a good job in exposing that (see above)

Eamonnca1's claim on the governance of Ireland as a single unit are simply not true. He correctly points out that the parliament sat from 1297 until 1800 but he fails to recognise that it not rule Ireland and made little attempt to rule it as a single entity. He makes no mention of the Celtic kings, the brehon law or the english control of the Irish Parliament for most of this time and their use of it as a means of standardisng taxation. Something they failed to do because of the existance of the Celtic Kings and the brehon laws. Ireland definitively was not ruled as a single entity in this period, certainly not from within Ireland. My original point stands.

Rossfan might well be frustrated with the drawing of the border. There was always going to be frustration. My original point was around IRA terror. You will at least accept that the nuances of the border could never justify murder?

Splitting counties was an option. How seriously was it pushed by pro-treatyites/nationalists?

Seafoid's contention that a 6 county state is automatically gerrymandering is nonsense. As pointed out already there has never been a united Ireland and its not obvious that decisions have to me made on unitary all-ireland basis. Its never happened before. It also worth pointing out that there was a pro-union marjority in a 9 county Ulster. If it was a gerrymandered land-grab they could have taken all 9.

Of course there was no 6 county entity mention in earlier Irish history. The creation of NI did not seek its legitimacy in lore or history but in the democratic will of the majority.

Lynchboy makes the same mistake of just presuming that democracy only works on an All-ireland basis.

A majority in the 6 counties wanted to remain in UK. They remained in the UK. I call that democracy.

How any of this justify IRA murders I do not know. Republicans murdered over 2000 people post '69. Which deaths achieved the IRA's stated goals?

This is and what the loyalist/unionist problem has been from the outset. A real ostrich perspective of sticking theirs heads in the sand and willingly/knowingly ignoring reality and truth.

It is not democracy to cherry pick a selected section of an overall region where voting follows a certain way and exclude it from the overall vote.

I think lcohen is on the wum here as no one in the modern era could be as Neanderthally closed minded to believe that the gerrymandering annexing of the six counties was democratic.

I'd like to see how he/she can substantiate this , maybe with examples of this being legally done elsewhere - while not the same, we all know the continuing problems that the creation of the Israeli country has caused!

So if lcohen and loyalists/unionists believe in this method of democracy, we need only to stage the referendum for reunification of Ireland in counties Derry, Tyrone and Fermanagh- the result will determine whether we reunify or not. The other three counties will have to abide by this result.

I can't see why loyalists/unionists would object to this, as it is conforming to their precedent and application of democracy!

A mojority in the 6 counties want to say in UK. Its hardly head in sand stuff to accpet this fairly fundamental fact. This reality is being ignored by many posters but not I.

Do any of you think ther will ever be a United Ireland that does not have majority support north and south?

You are still making th mistake that the only constitutency was the entire land mass. I and international law don't accept that. I don't think there will be Scotish independence this time around but it a majority of Scots vote for it I think they should have it and the votes of others on the same land mass should be ignored.

I like your concept that some who was born into a nationalist background in a republican area who challenges what they hear for over 40 years are in fact  "Neanderthally closed minded".

I am happy for a referendum to take place and the border to be re-drawn Republicans reject the latter part of that and therefore would not abide by the reult.

I can't see why loyalists/unionists would object to this, as it is conforming to their precedent and application of democracy!
[/quote]

[lynchbhoy]

Lcohen-Glad to see you have ran away from the question  which was your claim that the north was democratically created!

You realized you couldn't argue that dead dog.

Yes - I fully expect a reunification reasonably soon too, all dependent on the economy.
Nothing changes unionist/loyalist principles like a few dollars- eg Celtic tiger!
The southern electorate will be happy to vote for reunification if it will mean further prosperity along with rejoining the country.

The rest of you reply makes no sense whatever.prob trying to hard to dodge the original question!

[LCohen]

Running away from nothing - a majority wanted to stay in the union and they got it. Democracy

[dillinger]

Lcohen-Glad to see you have ran away from the question  which was your claim that the north was democratically created!

You realized you couldn't argue that dead dog.

Yes - I fully expect a reunification reasonably soon too, all dependent on the economy.
Nothing changes unionist/loyalist principles like a few dollars- eg Celtic tiger!
The southern electorate will be happy to vote for reunification if it will mean further prosperity along with rejoining the country.

The rest of you reply makes no sense whatever.prob trying to hard to dodge the original question!

I would think a lot of people would be wary of this famed Celtic Tiger economy going bust again.

People have long memories and it was very recent.

[ranch]

Running away from nothing - a majority wanted to stay in the union and they got it. Democracy

A majority wanted independence for the entire country and didn't get it. Democracy?

[lynchbhoy]

Running away from nothing - a majority wanted to stay in the union and they got it. Democracy

Still head in the sand stuff.
How was this determined?
Was there an all Ireland referendum to establish the opinion of the entire island of Ireland before annexing 6 counties of it?

That is the only democratic method of doing so.

Otherwise are we back to having a reunification referendum in counties Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Donegal that will determine the fate of all?

That would equate to unionist/loyalist methodology but I or most people wouldn't countenance this and would prefer a full 6 and 26 county vote to be completely democratic!

[lynchbhoy]

Lcohen-Glad to see you have ran away from the question  which was your claim that the north was democratically created!

You realized you couldn't argue that dead dog.

Yes - I fully expect a reunification reasonably soon too, all dependent on the economy.
Nothing changes unionist/loyalist principles like a few dollars- eg Celtic tiger!
The southern electorate will be happy to vote for reunification if it will mean further prosperity along with rejoining the country.

The rest of you reply makes no sense whatever.prob trying to hard to dodge the original question!

I would think a lot of people would be wary of this famed Celtic Tiger economy going bust again.

People have long memories and it was very recent.

The Celtic tiger was a boom that saw previously staunch unionist/loyalists abandoning their principles of never never never crossing the border or going to Dublin - but the jobs and money on offer made these people forget their previous old prejudices and take the cash.
Plenty still work in industry in the south - only parts of the Celtic tiger have stopped booming.

If you think people will refuse work or money then you don't know people.
Ok folk might look at the viability of some new companies, but that should always be the case an pure common sense.
It would be the same for people's from south and north in all of this!

[deiseach]

The failure of Catholic/Nationalist leadership was to not sustain the peaceful campaign and allowing the provos to put themselves forward as an alternative.

The majority of Catholic/Nationalists supported the peaceful campaign throughout the Troubles. This was true even in the six counties. This was despite the fact they never received as much as a crumb from the table of Unionism, whether in Northern Ireland or Westminster. In the face of such intransigence and the state-sponsored violence (please note 'violence' didn't just involve killing people, it included living in constant fear of the police who are supposed to be the first line of defence against criminality), it was a staggering tribute to the political skills of the likes of John Hume and Seamus Mallon that so few followed the alternative.

[Hardy]

The failure of Catholic/Nationalist leadership was to not sustain the peaceful campaign and allowing the provos to put themselves forward as an alternative.

The majority of Catholic/Nationalists supported the peaceful campaign throughout the Troubles. This was true even in the six counties. This was despite the fact they never received as much as a crumb from the table of Unionism, whether in Northern Ireland or Westminster. In the face of such intransigence and the state-sponsored violence (please note 'violence' didn't just involve killing people, it included living in constant fear of the police who are supposed to be the first line of defence against criminality), it was a staggering tribute to the political skills of the likes of John Hume and Seamus Mallon that so few followed the alternative.

This is the truth.

[theskull1]

+1

Just wondering .....has anyone within unionist political circles ever acknowledged the shameful way they ran this country to suit themselves after partition? Maybe they're not allowed to

[deiseach]

Just wondering .....has anyone within unionist political circles ever acknowledged the shameful way they ran this country to suit themselves after partition? Maybe they're not allowed to

From what I can see, this is how it works. There were problems in Northern Ireland from 1922-1969. These were understandable in the context of the threat of the Popish state down south, which then became a fascist-loving state after the Second World War, and not sectarian because they affected working-class Protestants as well. Still, Unionism must accept that there were problems. After 1969 though, all these problems vanished and everything would have been okay but for the Provos, the Loyalists being purely reactive, and the problem was prolonged by decades due to the outrageous unwillingness on the part of the politically correct mainland Brits to shoot the few hundred active members of the IRA. Here endeth the lesson.

[Rossfan]

The discrimination against Catholics didn't exist according to Wully Frazer because his uncles had no indoor toilet either.
Until Unionism takes off the blinkers and lets the truth shine in their people will never advance from the kind of eejits we saw refusing to accept that the majority of Belfast Councillors had the right to make a decision that didn't cave in to their bullying.

[glens abu]

The failure of Catholic/Nationalist leadership was to not sustain the peaceful campaign and allowing the provos to put themselves forward as an alternative.

The majority of Catholic/Nationalists supported the peaceful campaign throughout the Troubles. This was true even in the six counties. This was despite the fact they never received as much as a crumb from the table of Unionism, whether in Northern Ireland or Westminster. In the face of such intransigence and the state-sponsored violence (please note 'violence' didn't just involve killing people, it included living in constant fear of the police who are supposed to be the first line of defence against criminality), it was a staggering tribute to the political skills of the likes of John Hume and Seamus Mallon that so few followed the alternative.

I also think Deiseach not everyone had the courage to take up arms,many who would not have been that way inclined supported the IRA in many different ways but may also have voted SDLP as there was no other alternative at that time. Generally people don't want to take up arms or want their youth to end up in jails so will always gravitate towards those preaching peaceful means.

[lynchbhoy]

The failure of Catholic/Nationalist leadership was to not sustain the peaceful campaign and allowing the provos to put themselves forward as an alternative.

The majority of Catholic/Nationalists supported the peaceful campaign throughout the Troubles. This was true even in the six counties. This was despite the fact they never received as much as a crumb from the table of Unionism, whether in Northern Ireland or Westminster. In the face of such intransigence and the state-sponsored violence (please note 'violence' didn't just involve killing people, it included living in constant fear of the police who are supposed to be the first line of defence against criminality), it was a staggering tribute to the political skills of the likes of John Hume and Seamus Mallon that so few followed the alternative.

I also think Deiseach not everyone had the courage to take up arms,many who would not have been that way inclined supported the IRA in many different ways but may also have voted SDLP as there was no other alternative at that time. Generally people don't want to take up arms or want their youth to end up in jails so will always gravitate towards those preaching peaceful means.

even then people who took up arms were generally the ones that were on the receving end of the more violent acts from the unionist/loyalist vigilantes or the establishment security forces.
Those I know who enlisted did only out of retaliation to prolonged systematic persecution, death threats and violent oppression.
Theirs was not a romantic view of joining up.
It was retaliation or preventative measures.
I fully believe that if the establishment has not persecuted and kept the nationalist/Irish/catholics as a lower class and kept going at them, instead giving them a peaceful coexistence, then there would have been no IRA retaliating etc.
sad, but thats what I believe. Certainly none of the lads I know who are still alive and no longer banged up dont like what they did but say they felt compelled to do so to protect their families and communities.