Margaret Thatcher....

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Relative to it's size and population it doesn't seem that far fetched.

Population of Cyprus 1960-2013
http://www.google.ie/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:CYP&dl=en&hl=en&q=population%20of%20cyprus

[seafoid]

There are plenty reasons to hate Thatcher but "UK PM stands up to IRA" is not one of them.

I agree. Her f**k up of Sunningdale. Her hatred of the Irish. The fact she contemplated ethnically cleansing Northern Ireland and creating British army security zones either side of the Irish border are ones though.

Sunningdale was 1974 I thought. Thatch became chief boxwalla in 1979

[Eamonnca1]

Is Ireland an historic political unit? Really? has it it ever been governed as a single unit?

In a word, yes. The Irish Parliament sat from 1297 until 1800.  Northern elements of the Orange Order opposed the abolition of what they called "our Irish parliament" under the Act of Union because they feared it would lead to catholic emancipation.

Next question.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Relative to it's size and population it doesn't seem that far fetched.

Königsberg was renamed Kaliningrad in 1946

Wiki source (yes I know) pop. 2010 "According to the 2010 Census, its population was 431,902[5]—an increase from 430,003 recorded in the 2002 Census.[7] Its ethnic composition is 77.9% Russians, 8.0% Belarusians, 7.3% Ukrainians, 1.9% Lithuanians,[8] 0.6% Germans, and 0.5% Poles"

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Relative to it's size and population it doesn't seem that far fetched.

After the Boston bombing how could you forget this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

Stalin-Putin

[Rossfan]

:
1) Ther was not a majority (or close to a majority) in Cacan, Monaghan & Donegal seeking to remain in UK


In Fermanagh & Tyrone there were sizeable tranches of protestant/unionist people who wished to remain in UK.

So once there were "sizeable tranches of protestant/unionist people" it was enough and to hell with the majority population of those 2 counties.
Shades of the old Supremacist view that 1 Prod/Unionist > any number of Taigs/Nationalists like we've been seeing from the Minority in Belfast over their oul flag recently.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Iceland with a much smaller population has experienced alot of recent emmigration. Estonia with a smiliar population definitely has.

[ranch]

The gerrymandering comment is interesting. Was/is the problem the precise line of the border?

The reason it was not 9 counties was twofold:
1) Ther was not a majority (or close to a majority) in Cacan, Monaghan & Donegal seeking to remain in UK
2) The ancient provincial borders were irrelvant. It would have been madness to override democracy to preserve such an historic line in the sand.

In Fermanagh & Tyrone there were sizeable tranches of protestant/unionist people who wished to remain in UK. A lot of those people are still there. Unfortunately some desirable elements have resorted to ugly intimidation over the years that has seen their numbers reduce.

And why couldn't the border have been moved a few miles further north so that the people of Newry, south Down and south Armagh could be a part of the Free State? About 95% of the population in those areas wanted independence and were every bit as entitled to it as somebody from Galway or Cork.

[Jeepers Creepers]

The government in the free state assumed that these areas would be included below the partition line, and it wasn't until the document was leaked at the last minute that these areas would be partitioned. The british govt were reasonably happy with what was presented and enforced it.

[Eamonnca1]

The gerrymandering comment is interesting. Was/is the problem the precise line of the border?

The reason it was not 9 counties was twofold:
1) Ther was not a majority (or close to a majority) in Cacan, Monaghan & Donegal seeking to remain in UK
2) The ancient provincial borders were irrelvant. It would have been madness to override democracy to preserve such an historic line in the sand.

In Fermanagh & Tyrone there were sizeable tranches of protestant/unionist people who wished to remain in UK. A lot of those people are still there. Unfortunately some desirable elements have resorted to ugly intimidation over the years that has seen their numbers reduce.

And why couldn't the border have been moved a few miles further north so that the people of Newry, south Down and south Armagh could be a part of the Free State? About 95% of the population in those areas wanted independence and were every bit as entitled to it as somebody from Galway or Cork.

Local government boundaries would have to have been redrawn at the same time. Probably doable, but not convenient.

There's pockets of nationalism all over the north. One half of Lurgan is nationalist, do we partition the town?  What about the times when the Wakehurst estate was a prod enclave in the nationalist end of the town?  Should that have stayed part of the UK?  (It's been overrun by fenians now so it's academic.)  At the end of the day if you're going to draw a line it has to go somewhere and the chances are that there's going to be pissed off people on either side of it.  Far better if the planters had gotten this idea out of their heads that they're some sort of superior ruling class who have to keep having boundaries re-drawn to keep them in power every time they start losing elections.

[seafoid]

The gerrymandering comment is interesting. Was/is the problem the precise line of the border?

The reason it was not 9 counties was twofold:
1) Ther was not a majority (or close to a majority) in Cacan, Monaghan & Donegal seeking to remain in UK
2) The ancient provincial borders were irrelvant. It would have been madness to override democracy to preserve such an historic line in the sand.

In Fermanagh & Tyrone there were sizeable tranches of protestant/unionist people who wished to remain in UK. A lot of those people are still there. Unfortunately some desirable elements have resorted to ugly intimidation over the years that has seen their numbers reduce.

Geographically contained is self-explanatory. Enclaves dotted about the country would not be self contained.

Is Ireland an historic political unit? Really? has it it ever been governed as a single unit?

6 counties by definition is jerrymandering. The protestants only have a stable majority east of the bann but it's too small in terms of area to be viable. They needed more land so it was 6. The geniuses who drew up the border never imagined the brain drain of educated protestants of recent years.   

There were protestants in Cavan and Sligo who would have liked to live in a Protestant state but of course it wasn't about them.  It was all about a workable demographic majority.

So what if Ireland was never a single political unit. I can't find any mention of a protestant statelet in the north of Ireland in the Táin Bó Cúailnge

Israel was also jerrymandered. lt is dishonourable and often ends in tears

[lynchbhoy]

Now lads could you not re-read your posts there and address some of the glaring errors?

The idea that partition was anti-democratic is absurd. There was a clear majority in a geographically contained area against separation from UK. That democratic expression was recognised in the settlement. Democracy at work

An international border was redrawn to reflect democracy suddenly gets called a "false political entity" - grow up. Must Yugoslavia be re-united against the democratic wishes of its people(s)?

The abuses of people brought about by both Democratic majority in NI and the British government are shameful. However they can only be used to justify the creation or actions of the modern provos if the actions of the provos could be said to have addressed those abuses. Explain to me how the bombings in Warrington, Omagh, Coleraine, Portadown (this list can go on and on) relieved the oppression of Catholics or achieved a United Ireland? They didn't and they couldn't. They were murders and attempts at murder and their perpetrators murderers. Somehow I am being told this is hypocrisy and a re-writing of history. Anyone care to explain how? 

Thatcher's contribution to the GFA ia a myth. I have  never argued otherwise.

You are hilarious!

Surely you can think for yourself and not rehash old loyalist-unionst tat!
Democracy would have been ascertaining the opinion of the entire country not just a selection of counties one 66% of one province!
Doing this was not democratic - can you not see this!
I think yer having a giraffe!

Even those in the southern gig who accepted this ( the so called free staters) viewed it as temp and a stepping stone to eventual reunification under a completed 32 Irish republic.

It makes me laugh when I hear this loyalist/unionist tripe about the six county takeover being democratic!

The killing that went on in the war in the north was wrong on both sides , but it was tit for tat - as how violent oppression has always ended up worldwide throughout history!
Thankfully it's over now, equality has been won and the oppressors revoked, retaliators ended.

[LCohen]

As yes Fear ón Srath Bán you should always ignore any contary opinion that contains a typo. Its how one demonstrates maturity and illustratse the integrity of one's argument.

Nally Stand's claims on population movement seem crazed and demented. Others have a good job in exposing that (see above)

Eamonnca1's claim on the governance of Ireland as a single unit are simply not true. He correctly points out that the parliament sat from 1297 until 1800 but he fails to recognise that it not rule Ireland and made little attempt to rule it as a single entity. He makes no mention of the Celtic kings, the brehon law or the english control of the Irish Parliament for most of this time and their use of it as a means of standardisng taxation. Something they failed to do because of the existance of the Celtic Kings and the brehon laws. Ireland definitively was not ruled as a single entity in this period, certainly not from within Ireland. My original point stands.

Rossfan might well be frustrated with the drawing of the border. There was always going to be frustration. My original point was around IRA terror. You will at least accept that the nuances of the border could never justify murder?

Splitting counties was an option. How seriously was it pushed by pro-treatyites/nationalists?

Seafoid's contention that a 6 county state is automatically gerrymandering is nonsense. As pointed out already there has never been a united Ireland and its not obvious that decisions have to me made on unitary all-ireland basis. Its never happened before. It also worth pointing out that there was a pro-union marjority in a 9 county Ulster. If it was a gerrymandered land-grab they could have taken all 9.

Of course there was no 6 county entity mention in earlier Irish history. The creation of NI did not seek its legitimacy in lore or history but in the democratic will of the majority.

Lynchboy makes the same mistake of just presuming that democracy only works on an All-ireland basis.

A majority in the 6 counties wanted to remain in UK. They remained in the UK. I call that democracy.

How any of this justify IRA murders I do not know. Republicans murdered over 2000 people post '69. Which deaths achieved the IRA's stated goals?

[Eamonnca1]

Just before the passage of the Act of Union, was Ireland being governed as a single entity or was it not?

[updown9194]

'The idea that partition was anti-democratic is absurd'.

So, if Derry wished to secede from the Union, along with Fermanagh and South Tyrone, then it would be fine?

Democracy was concieved by Greeks who used the term ochlocracy to distinguish it from 'mob rule'. Partition by its very nature was ochlocratic if you take into consideration the foundation of the UVF as a fairly clear spur towards British appeasement of northern loyalists.