Dear All,
After yesterday's announcement about pay-for-play in the GAA, a group of concerned GAA people are coming together as follows:
Wednesday 5 December
7.00pm
The Elk
(between Castledawson and Toome on the main Belfast/Derry road)
The aim is to hold an open meeting to see what the grass-roots view is about this absolutely seismic shift in GAA policy.
If you're concerned about this whole issue, please come along.
And it would be useful if you could circulate the content of this email to like-minded people.
Time to do Something. Let's All GO!!!
but its the same nite as the gathering at maddens
Can we call ourselves the Continuity GAA or the Real GAA or something catchy?
on a regig of GPA.................GAP Gaels Against Professionalism
Can someone ring Pat Darcy, Tyrone County chairman who said yesterday that the government should have given the money to St. Vincent de Paul instead of the GPA - Fair play to you Pat.
Gaels Against Progress?
Government funded grants administered by the sports council, which will put a small hole in the expenses intercounty players incur over the course of a year is progress. anyone who opposes it on the basis that the big bad wolf is going come in the night is the modern day version of the catholic church of the 60s
Pay for Play?
Your going to have to substantiate that nonsense claim
typical. not a fact or quote anywhere to be seen.
The George bush neocons could do no better. WOE WOE WOE!!!
On that note can you quote some of the examples you refer to, of the catholic church in the 1960s
Quote from: DMarsden on December 01, 2007, 03:36:53 PM
Government funded grants administered by the sports council, which will put a small hole in the expenses intercounty players incur over the course of a year is progress. anyone who opposes it on the basis that the big bad wolf is going come in the night is the modern day version of the catholic church of the 60s
Pay for Play?
Your going to have to substantiate that nonsense claim
They getting paid for playing? Yes! So it's not coming from the GAA itself, but the fact is that the players are getting paid. You can dress it up by saying it's a grant. At the end of the day they are getting money to play and threatened to strike if they weren't.
The GAA is an amature sport now, but only in name.
No, they are getting a grant towards the expense of preparing to pay.
What expenses doplayers get from the GAA towards preparation?
It is the GAA who created the elite status.
QuoteGovernment funded grants administered by the sports council, which will put a small hole in the expenses intercounty players incur over the course of a year is progress. anyone who opposes it on the basis that the big bad wolf is going come in the night is the modern day version of the catholic church of the 60s
It's being administered by the GAA and what county players haven't their expenses covered?
Its boring answering this question.
time away from work
time away from family
loss of time used up for the GAA which others use productively (how much an hour do you rate your time at?)
expense of dietry requirements
blah blah blah.
The usual riposte is don't do it but the next fleet of players will only be in a wet week when they look for the same. why turn down non GAA money to put a little towards the work that goes into what you see on the telly in july or august?
Quote from: DMarsden on December 01, 2007, 03:55:57 PM
Its boring answering this question.
time away from work
time away from family
loss of time used up for the GAA which others use productively (how much an hour do you rate your time at?)
expense of dietry requirements
blah blah blah.
The usual riposte is don't do it but the next fleet of players will only be in a wet week when they look for the same. why turn down non GAA money to put a little towards the work that goes into what you see on the telly in july or august?
In response to all of these,
time away from work
time away from family
loss of time used up for the GAA which others use productively (how much an hour do you rate your time at?)
expense of dietry requirements
blah blah blah.
Now imagine your a Dromore Player, Crossmaglen player, St Galls Player , and repested up and down the land.
Rehydration allowance was quoted by E Mc Nulty...........................FFS ;D ;D ;D Turn the tap on !
Not only that, yous got that greedy yous lost sight of the ladies and the camogs
QuoteMayo ladies football star Cora Staunton has joined camogie president Liz Howard in calling for a grants scheme to be set up for female GAA players in the wake of the historic deal secured by their male counterparts.
Staunton, who inspired her club Carnacon to All-Ireland glory last weekend, said: "We put in every bit as much effort, sacrifice and time as the men.
"In fact, this year the Mayo ladies football team were involved training later in the summer for the All-Ireland championship than the Mayo men's team were. So I feel that there should be no discrimination, and that equality should prevail between both men and women.
"I think the Ladies Football Association should make the first move in this regard, and obviously the Government and the National Sports Council would also be involved in the discussions on the issue.
"I know that ladies football matches don't generate anything like the level of gate receipts that men's matches do. But I don't feel that should be a stumbling block, as the Government provided the funding for the setting up of the men's deal.
"Of course, as well as ladies football, the camogie players should also benefit from any new arrangement."
...and it begins.
are you referring to a legal challenge pints?
I can assure you, folks. Be under no illusion. This deal is a wolf in wolf's clothing. The GAA depend on voluntary imput from a much broader range of expertise than the man who sweeps out the changing rooms and the woman who makes the sandwiches and the under 10 manager. Our medical committee is made up of GPs who give of their valuable time free of charge and none of them charge for their services to counties. This might change now. The DRA is made up of a team of QCs, barristers, lawyers, solicitors and again 27 hearings this year and all that work done free of charge.
We're fucked. I tell you.
Quoteare you referring to a legal challenge pints?
Well I was really refering to the calls for the Ladies (and who'd blame them) to get the same treatment as was widely predicted months ago. You'd imagine they'd have a legal argument also. Could we have calls from clubs in the final stages of the All Ireland Club championships for the same?
What arguments against are immature dmarsden?
Assuming the girls can demonstrate the same time effort commitment to furthering our national games, which in most cases they certainly can, then they should be eligible for government sponsorship too.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 01, 2007, 04:19:09 PM
What arguments against are immature dmarsden?
I do this that and the other for the GAA, were's my grant?
Noone forces them to play
Its a privelege to play for your county
Intercounty player grants is the first step on a slippery slope to nuclear proliferation (despite it being minuted at the GPA EGM that the playing body doe not want pay for play and does not believe the GAA could sustain it
QuoteI do this that and the other for the GAA, were's my grant?
Noone forces them to play
Its a privelege to play for your county
These arguments are immature how? Because you've no answer for them?
QuoteIntercounty player grants is the first step on a slippery slope to nuclear proliferation (despite it being minuted at the GPA EGM that the playing body doe not want pay for play and does not believe the GAA could sustain it
Why then was one of their leading members talking about it as being a "start"?
QuoteBig deal, I've been similarly engaged all afternoon and I'm 100% behind the GPA on the grants issue, and I hope the women get similar recognition too.
And why should a handful of players get handed a couple of thousand over everyone else benny?
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 01, 2007, 04:30:38 PM
QuoteBig deal, I've been similarly engaged all afternoon and I'm 100% behind the GPA on the grants issue, and I hope the women get similar recognition too.
And why should a handful of players get handed a couple of thousand over everyone else benny?
Why should they not? The money is available through the grants scheme, they've made their case, they've asked for the money, they've got it, good luck to them.
The fact that the money is not coming from the pockets of the GAA and the principle of Amatuerism has been enshrined in the agreement is being blindly ignored as far as I can gather and people are just voicing their worst fears and representing it as inevitable(fact).
Quote from: bennydorano on December 01, 2007, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 01, 2007, 04:30:38 PM
QuoteBig deal, I've been similarly engaged all afternoon and I'm 100% behind the GPA on the grants issue, and I hope the women get similar recognition too.
And why should a handful of players get handed a couple of thousand over everyone else benny?
Why should they not? The money is available through the grants scheme, they've made their case, they've asked for the money, they've got it, good luck to them.
The fact that the money is not coming from the pockets of the GAA and the principle of Amatuerism has been enshrined in the agreement is being blindly ignored as far as I can gather and people are just voicing their worst fears and representing it as inevitable(fact).
The money may not be coming from the GAA's pocket but they are the ones handing out the cheques. It doesn't matter how you dress it up it has created an elite and is pay for play and is saying that a handful of people in our organisation is better and more valuable than everyone else and that's not what the GAA is about.
Those are the reasons why not, you tell me why they should get the money over everyone else.
Quote from: bennydorano on December 01, 2007, 04:48:52 PM
The fact that the money is not coming from the pockets of the GAA and the principle of Amatuerism has been enshrined in the agreement is being blindly ignored as far as I can gather and people are just voicing their worst fears and representing it as inevitable(fact).
I'm not that bothered either way about this, however people keep on about how this money should be gratefully accepted since it's not gaa money, personally, I'd rather the money came directly from the gaa rather than be funds diverted from some more needy expenditure, as we all know there are plenty of problems down here in the free state re health, education, lack of infrastructure..... I'd say any of these area's would be damned glad of the 5 million.
QuoteI'm not that bothered either way about this, however people keep on about how this money should be gratefully accepted since it's not gaa money, personally, I'd rather the money came directly from the gaa rather than be funds diverted from some more needy expenditure, as we all know there are plenty of problems down here in the free state re health, education, lack of infrastructure..... I'd say any of these area's would be damned glad of the 5 million.
Brian O'Driscoll will get a nice tax rebate from the govt. once his playing days are over. By that stage he'll be a multi millionaire with a guaranteed future as a TV rugby pundit. I don't think GAA players need to feel guilty over this grant. The GAA makes millions for this country and the IC player plays an important role in this. Where lads are getting the notion that this is the end of the GAA is byond me.
Brian O Driscoll is a professional athlete on a signed contract, at club and international level.
If you want to make a comparison just come out and say , yes, i want to be a professional GAA player. Until that moment arrives you cannot compare like for like !!
They don't wnat to come out and say that they want to be professional - not yet anyway - Dessie says the time is not right yet - but they will want to be professional in a few years time.
I can't believe some people are so thick that they don't believe inter county players want to be professional. Read any of their autobiographies and you'd realise that pretty quickly. Somewhere along the line it must have dawned on them that they realised "I' am part of an amateur organisation so i'm not going to get paid for this". If they want to be professional play something else.
For the information of Mr Marsden inter county players in the top bracket get sponsored cars- free gear- free membership of gyms- paid scholarships-mileage-free meals - free bloody holidays etc- now go away and do a nice audit on that and come back to me and explain why they need a grant on top of that? It's the poor sods in the weaker counties that get nothing who i feel sorry for. And now the organisation that was set up to help them has screwed them over in royal fashion to ensure they get less than everybody else. Pathetic.
I know rowers and athletes who are professional and live virtually on the breadline ie about 10k a year. I often trained 5-6 days a week in the latter stages ofthe all-ireland club chamoionship - was i entitled to a grant? I think that's a joke of an argument i know rowers and athletes training 6 days a week and living on less than 10k per year surviving on handouts etc. Gaa players do bloody well in comparison.
What i would like to see to see, is some of our "elite" players to come forward and state publicly that they play for their county for the love of the game and for no renumeration and if the grant was made available they would not accept.
Now, fair enough if someone needs it, but there are plenty who are financially well enough off, who dont need it.
Quote from: Bensars on December 01, 2007, 09:41:44 PM
What i would like to see to see, is some of our "elite" players to come forward and state publicly that they play for their county for the love of the game and for no renumeration and if the grant was made available they would not accept.
Now, fair enough if someone needs it, but there are plenty who are financially well enough off, who dont need it.
Thats gonna happen...
badly informed and thought out posts like this are the reason why there should be a ban on this topic
It is an option on the paper put forward.
Quote from: bennydorano on November 29, 2007, 12:40:45 PM
Agreement between the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism and the Irish Sports Council, GAA and GPA to recognise the contribution of Senior Inter-County Players and additional costs associated with enhancing team performance.
Rationale
Our Senior Inter-County players provide the window through which our National Games are viewed nationally and internationally. It is recognised that the successful teams prepare and train to the highest international standards for team sports and that the current scheme of tax relief for professional sports people cannot be applied to Gaelic players because of their amateur status. The Minister therefore, via the Irish Sports Council, in consultation with the GAA and the GPA, intends to introduce schemes to recognise the outstanding contribution of Gaelic Inter-County players to our indigenous sport, to meet additional costs associated with elite team performance and to encourage aspiring teams and players to reach the highest levels of sporting endeavour. These schemes will be based specifically on Championship participation, the GAA’s blue riband competitions, commencing at the end of the National Leagues, and will operate as follows:
Annual Team Performance Scheme
The Annual Team Performance Scheme will be based on the performance of teams during the championships and will apply to the 12 Gaelic football teams qualifying for the third round of the All-Ireland Qualifier series or reaching a Provincial Final, and the 12 hurling teams participating in the McCarthy Cup. The level of award available to teams will be calculated on a sliding scale increasing with continuing involvement in the Championships.
Annual Support Scheme for the Development of Excellence in the Indigenous Sports of Hurling and Gaelic football
The Annual Support Scheme for the Development of Excellence will be based on the achievement of standards and performance-based criteria designed to raise/maintain the levels of preparation and skill of the teams and individuals not qualifying for the Team Performance Scheme. The GAA, the GPA and the Irish Sports Council will agree a set of standards and performance based criteria for counties and their senior team squads eliminated in the first two rounds of the All-Ireland Football Qualifiers, and those participating in the Tommy Murphy Cup, the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard Cups. Recognising that the achievement of excellence necessitates increased sacrifice and effort by counties and individuals, this scheme will assist them in achieving/maintaining the required standards. Support will not be made available to individuals or squads that fail to meet minimum standards.
Funding
An amount of €3.5m will be provided in 2008 to fund these schemes.
Criteria for participation in these Schemes
County committees, team management and players representatives in participating counties will develop improvement plans with measurable goals and objectives, agreed with the ISC, and consistent with national GAA coaching and games development policy. The supports will be based on the following criteria:
County Committee Responsibilities
• Establish and agree key performance indicators with team management. This will involve identifying squad targets and objectives, formulating an appropriate training regime/plan, establishing a code of conduct to which all parties give agreement and the provision of comprehensive information and advice on the anti-doping code. These indicators, objectives and requirements will be incorporated in the proposed Charter for inter county teams and County Committees.
• Provision, as appropriate, of qualified personnel to enhance player/team development. This to include advice and support in all aspects of team and individual fitness, nutrition, health and well-being associated with playing the games.
• A system to take account of players joining or departing from the county squad will be agreed.
• Ensure the presence of certified medical personnel at all inter-county games.
Player Responsibilities
• Attend at least 80% of all training sessions/matches. This commitment will also apply to injured/rehab personnel except where excused.
• Demonstrate improvement through regular fitness testing.
• Keep updated training log/diary.
• Strict adherence to anti-doping code.
• Players who violate the code will not receive awards
• Injured players will be expected to meet a set of agreed minimum requirements to demonstrate that they are participating satisfactorily in the rehabilitation process in order to receive an award.
• Players will commit to participate in an agreed level of coaching and games development work in their county on a voluntary basis. In co-operation with the Local Sports Partnerships players will visit schools and youth facilities as part of an overall policy to promote increased participation in their sports.
• Players will involve themselves in initiatives at county and national level to promote their sports as a healthy activity for all ages.
• Any Inter County Squad or Player may decline the amount.
Players have come out and stated this prior to the paper being released.
Its my opinion of what i would like happen. Are we all not entitled to our opinion?
QuoteI can't believe some people are so thick that they don't believe inter county players want to be professional.
Yep, maybe some of us are simpletons, unable to grasp the complexities of the situation. On the other hand maybe we feel that these are driven sportsmen making the point that they'd love to be able to play GAA as professionals. In the same way as I'd love to get paid for playing club football/hurling, i.e. we'd love to live the life of a pro athlete getting paid to do what we love doing the most. If you tell your buddies that you'd love to sleep with Pam Anderson does that mean your leaving your wife, quiting your job and heading off to LA to woo her?
QuoteI know rowers and athletes who are professional and live virtually on the breadline ie about 10k a year.
The best athletes and rowers in this country can get grants to help their preparation, a good friend of mine is an international standard runner and gets €20K approximately from the sports council. I feel he should be better supported as should many top class sports people in this country but GAA players shouldn't feel guilty over this. I'm not sure what rowing brings into the government but it is pittance in comparison to what the GAA earns for the exchequer. Whatever money GAA players get from the government is well deserved.
QuoteBrian O Driscoll is a professional athlete on a signed contract, at club and international level.
If you want to make a comparison just come out and say , yes, i want to be a professional GAA player. Until that moment arrives you cannot compare like for like !!
So what if he is a professional, surely if the government are going to give money to sports people it shouldn't be to overpaid professionals but to amateurs who could do with the extra money. If the health service need more money it's not the GAA they should be looking to but the IRFU.
Quote from: darbyo on December 01, 2007, 10:05:36 PM
QuoteBrian O Driscoll is a professional athlete on a signed contract, at club and international level.
If you want to make a comparison just come out and say , yes, i want to be a professional GAA player. Until that moment arrives you cannot compare like for like !!
So what if he is a professional, surely if the government are going to give money to sports people it shouldn't be to overpaid professionals but to amateurs who could do with the extra money. If the health service need more money it's not the GAA they should be looking to but the IRFU.
Agree 100%. Tell that to the club players who have trained all year, moreso the club players who went on to represent their counties in their respective provisional club tournaments. Oh and not forgetting the ladies, some of them have trained and committed as much time if not more than their male counterparts !
Are these individuals not as deserving?
That's a fair enough point Bensars but we can be fairly certain that most inter county players are serious about their sport and have dedicated a great deal of time and effort to it. The majority of club players don't train all year, some of course do, but they don't generate the same money as inter county players. As for the ladies, if they get the same deal that's fine by me but the GPA don't represent them. We could go around this all week again but if this isn't the first step on the road to professionalism, and IMO it isn't, then what is the problem if the government gives them a few bob.
Inter county players do play for the love of the game, their county and the clubs, now the government is willing to pay them approx. €3K on top of that. As GAA people we should be rejoicing in that instead we're all of a sudden worried about shaggin rowers. Some of you have suggested that if inter county players aren't willing to play for the love of the game anymore then they should play a different sport may I suggest if you want to watch sportsmen engage in their sport only for the love of it, go watch rowing
.
QuoteThat's a fair enough point Bensars but we can be fairly certain that most inter county players are serious about their sport and have dedicated a great deal of time and effort to it. The majority of club players don't train all year, some of course do, but they don't generate the same money as inter county players. As for the ladies, if they get the same deal that's fine by me but the GPA don't represent them.
On one breath you bascialy justify club players not getting anything because they done't generate money (either do county players imo) but yet you advocate the Ladies getting the same deal? How much do they generate?
No, POG I'm saying that the 200,000 (or whatever) club players don't do what IC players do except for a very small percent. If the AI club finalists (or provincial finalists) were given €2000 each by the competition sponsors I'd have no problem. IMO they'd deserve it, but if the government is footing the bill then it can only go to IC players. I know you might be able to punch holes in that argument but I think you know what I'm basically saying. Why as GAA people some of us are as upset about this as if junior club soccer players were getting the money I just can't understand.
Quote from: darbyo on December 01, 2007, 10:56:49 PM
No, POG I'm saying that the 200,000 (or whatever) club players don't do what IC players do except for a very small percent. If the AI club finalists (or provincial finalists) were given €2000 each by the competition sponsors I'd have no problem. IMO they'd deserve it, but if the government is footing the bill then it can only go to IC players. I know you might be able to punch holes in that argument but I think you know what I'm basically saying. Why as GAA people some of us are as upset about this as if junior club soccer players were getting the money I just can't understand.
but if the government is footing the bill then it can only go to IC players. Why only inter county players
Quote from: bennydorano on November 29, 2007, 12:40:45 PM
Funding
An amount of €3.5m will be provided in 2008 to fund these schemes.
Criteria for participation in these Schemes
County committees, team management and players representatives in participating counties will develop improvement plans with measurable goals and objectives, agreed with the ISC, and consistent with national GAA coaching and games development policy. The supports will be based on the following criteria:
County Committee Responsibilities
• Establish and agree key performance indicators with team management. This will involve identifying squad targets and objectives, formulating an appropriate training regime/plan, establishing a code of conduct to which all parties give agreement and the provision of comprehensive information and advice on the anti-doping code. These indicators, objectives and requirements will be incorporated in the proposed Charter for inter county teams and County Committees.
• Provision, as appropriate, of qualified personnel to enhance player/team development. This to include advice and support in all aspects of team and individual fitness, nutrition, health and well-being associated with playing the games.
• A system to take account of players joining or departing from the county squad will be agreed.
• Ensure the presence of certified medical personnel at all inter-county games.
Player Responsibilities
• Attend at least 80% of all training sessions/matches. This commitment will also apply to injured/rehab personnel except where excused.
• Demonstrate improvement through regular fitness testing.
• Keep updated training log/diary.
• Strict adherence to anti-doping code.
• Players who violate the code will not receive awards
• Injured players will be expected to meet a set of agreed minimum requirements to demonstrate that they are participating satisfactorily in the rehabilitation process in order to receive an award.
• Players will commit to participate in an agreed level of coaching and games development work in their county on a voluntary basis. In co-operation with the Local Sports Partnerships players will visit schools and youth facilities as part of an overall policy to promote increased participation in their sports.
• Players will involve themselves in initiatives at county and national level to promote their sports as a healthy activity for all ages.
• Any Inter County Squad or Player may decline the amount.
• Attend at least 80% of all training sessions/matches. This commitment will also apply to injured/rehab personnel except where excused.
• Demonstrate improvement through regular fitness testing.
• Keep updated training log/diary.
• Strict adherence to anti-doping code
Why can any of the above not apply to others. At the end of the day if a log has to kept, club players and others can keep a log to meet the above criteria
Do you need a hand with them goal posts darbyo?
You see it's going to get interesting now in the pay for play camp because yous are running out of arguments.
Lets see, for the last number of months we had justification for the grants to the intercounty players because they draw in crowds - the same people who argued this are going to turn around now and argue for grants for the grils when we know a lot of club games would draw in as many as Ladies football or camogie.
Now I see you've shifted the argument back to the amount of time players spend training and I would say that there are a lot of club players who train as hard and give up as much time not to mention those cutting the grass, cleaning out the changing rooms etc.
So which is it lads, the grants should be given out because the county players draw in crowds or because they put in more time than anyone else?
Quotebut if the government is footing the bill then it can only go to IC players. Why only inter county players
Because I'm a club player and I know I don't deserve to get anything from the Irish tax payer for my efforts on the GAA fields of Ireland, and the vast majority of the club players I know don't put in anything like the amount of time and effort that IC lads do.
QuoteDo you need a hand with them goal posts darbyo?
You see it's going to get interesting now in the pay for play camp because yous are running out of arguments.
Lets see, for the last number of months we had justification for the grants to the intercounty players because they draw in crowds - the same people who argued this are going to turn around now and argue for grants for the grils when we know a lot of club games would draw in as many as Ladies football or camogie.
Now I see you've shifted the argument back to the amount of time players spend training and I would say that there are a lot of club players who train as hard and give up as much time not to mention those cutting the grass, cleaning out the changing rooms etc.
So which is it lads, the grants should be given out because the county players draw in crowds or because they put in more time than anyone else?
We have had a pretty good debate about this up to now but I'm beginning to wonder is there any point talking to ye any more. There has beeen numerous arguments from the anti-GPA posters here as to why the IC lads shouldn't get the grant ranging from the doomsday scenario of pay for play to the unfairness of amateur rowers not getting the same as IC players and you tell me I'm moving posts. I'll tell you what POG give me your reasons why the IC players shouldn't get a grant from the government, you tell me why you oppose it and I'll tell you why I agree with it.
By the way I never argued for grants for the girls I just said I'd have no problem if they got one. And to follow on that point if the government said they were willing to give the club grass cutters a grant I'd have no problem with that either. I can only presume that if the government said they were willing to give the grassroots GAA member a grant for cutting the grass, selling lotto tickets, washing jersey's and coaching the U8's you'd be of the opinion that he should tell them where they could shove their grant and if he didn't well he could f**k off and do it for Manchester Utd. where they get paid for that type of thing.
There are a number of arguments but the very basic one is very simple. I have always found that one of the greatest things about the GAA was that everyone was pretty much equal, everyone had their part to play, the man cutting the grass on a Saturday was as important as his club mate playing in front of 80,000 on the Sunday.
That's now gone.
QuoteThere are a number of arguments but the very basic one is very simple. I have always found that one of the greatest things about the GAA was that everyone was pretty much equal, everyone had their part to play, the man cutting the grass on a Saturday was as important as his club mate playing in front of 80,000 on the Sunday.
That's now gone
Well, first off I notice you've ignored the question I asked about grass cutters, this is a constant theme of the anti-GPA posters, rarely have any of the questions I posed been answered. But more importantly POG, from reading your posts over the years I've always regarded you as one of the more knowledgeable posters, but are you saying that you don't want IC players getting a few bob because that now makes them more important in your eyes(I presume) than you or me? I can't understand that, for me if the government is willing to pay refs. coaches, club secretaries, grass cutters, or the f**kin village idiot that goes to GAA matches and does nothing but give out then that's fine by me. This grant helps keep the GAA strong and rewards some of us for the effort we put in, that's brilliant IMO. Tomorrow I'm going up to my club to train U6,8 &10's, with me will be an IC player, I'll get nothing for this as an IC player he now gets 1-3k. I'm delighted as long as he is willing to help the club and county I couldn't care less if he got €100,000. That you do amazes me.
QuoteWell, first off I notice you've ignored the question I asked about grass cutters, this is a constant theme of the anti-GPA posters, rarely have any of the questions I posed been answered. But more importantly POG, from reading your posts over the years I've always regarded you as one of the more knowledgeable posters, but are you saying that you don't want IC players getting a few bob because that now makes them more important in your eyes(I presume) than you or me? I can't understand that, for me if the government is willing to pay refs. coaches, club secretaries, grass cutters, or the f**kin village idiot that goes to GAA matches and does nothing but give out then that's fine by me. This grant helps keep the GAA strong and rewards some of us for the effort we put in, that's brilliant IMO. Tomorrow I'm going up to my club to train U6,8 &10's, with me will be an IC player, I'll get nothing for this as an IC player he now gets 1-3k. I'm delighted as long as he is willing to help the club and county I couldn't care less if he got €100,000. That you do amazes me.
re the grass cutters, I don't think anyone in the GAA should accept an individual grant - any funding should go back into the organisation, we are an amateur organisation.
It amazes me that you are happy to accept that we now have an elite group of people in the GAA who are receiving pay for play, and are only receiving it because the GAA were bullied and threatened by an association who are talking about this couple of thousand as being a "start".
Quotere the grass cutters, I don't think anyone in the GAA should accept an individual grant - any funding should go back into the organisation, we are an amateur organisation.
So if the government offered a grant of 3k to the lad who cuts the grass in your club you'd tell him if he wnts money for the job to do he's grass cutting somewhere else? And please just answer that question, would you or wouldn't you?
Yes, why should he get 3 grand when others are doing other, just as valuable, work?
I certainly wouldn't support him getting three grand if he threatened a strike and yapped and whinged to all the media in the country about about us.
QuoteFirst off can we agree to continue this debate on one of the threads not both. But of these thousands you speak of how long would it be before these lads would like to take the money that the government is willing to give them. Let's say you and I are some of the lads that take the place of the current IC players. Two years of inter county training down the line and the government offer 3k is still on the table are you saying that you'd say no thanks I'm just doing it for the love of my county? Money could never buy the feeling of winning an AI with my county, the fact that players play with their county of birth (in general) is something that helps make the GAA special. But that is not changing here it's just that the government are willing to acknowledge that the elite GAA player should be treated like the elite rugby/soccer player by the state, i.e. some form of state rebate. I'm asking again what is wrong with that?
No one would be looking money two years down the line if the GAA had to stand firm and hold their ground and make it clear that they will not be threatened.
If I was a intercounty player and being handed a cheque for £3,000 I'd had it over to my club committe to do with it as they see fit.
QuoteThat this "union" is meant to be looking after the player, yet manage to increase their participation in their hobby, which is already considered by the "union" and apparently 60 odd percent of their members to be a plight.
Sorry I don't know what you are trying to say!, is this a reference to the fact that players have to reach certain standards before getting a grant?
QuoteApparently the GAA is something other than I thought it was.
What is the GAA to you and how has it be weakend by this decision?
QuoteYes, why should he get 3 grand when others are doing other, just as valuable, work?
I certainly wouldn't support him getting three grand if he threatened a strike and yapped and whinged to all the media in the country about about us.
So would you support him if the government just gave it to him, without him ever asking for it?
QuoteSo would you support him if the government just gave it to him, without him ever asking for it?
No
QuoteNo one would be looking money two years down the line if the GAA had to stand firm and hold their ground and make it clear that they will not be threatened.
If I was a intercounty player and being handed a cheque for £3,000 I'd had it over to my club committe to do with it as they see fit.
Are you trying to suggest that no-one would ever again look for a grant that the government was willing to give? You seem to think that if the GAA had taken a confrontational stance on this and tried to face down the GPA that this problem would just go away. The GPA would have been crushed and no-one would ever again seek to bring IC GAA players in line with the treatment of pro rugby and soccer players. Fantasy land lads, this is a long term issue that we must deal with. The GAA is playing this issue correctly, giving ground on a reasonable request that is costing them nothing. The next move is to give the GPA official recognition, then let them (the GPA) look for whatever they want within the GAA, if it's reasonable give it to them, if not say no. Professionalism isn't reasonable or workable, and no-one in the GAA thinks it is, so it won't happen.
If it was faced down this time it could be faced down again and again.
I think it the GAA stood strong this time it would be a long time before it was rasied again.
I think you are wrong but I guess it is all just a matter of conjecture. The reality of the situation is that it has happened and it must now be dealt with. To be honest I have no problem with anyone making money out of the GAA as long as it doesn't weaken the association, so under the table payments or government grants are of no concern to me. Of course some will say I'm not seeing the bigger picture or the long term damage that this can do, but I'm afraid I just don't see things that way. I believe people are making a mountain out of mole hill, time will tell I suppose. Unfortunately I have to sign off now as I have to coach the next generation of money grabbers at 10am ;)
Porfessionalism has ruined rugby for the grass roots and this will happen to GAA - no doubt about it.
After a bit of homework i've found out that our grass cutter at the club got £1700 stg for the year's work
That's a disgrace Marsden !!! An absolute disgrace ! Is that ALL he got ? Just £ 1700 ? My God, what is the world coming to ?
It's more than the government grant liable to most IC players!
Again, you have absolutely nothing to add to the debate beyond what my 6 yr old nephew could add to the debate on the housing market.
Quote from: darbyo on December 01, 2007, 06:28:46 PM
QuoteI'm not that bothered either way about this, however people keep on about how this money should be gratefully accepted since it's not gaa money, personally, I'd rather the money came directly from the gaa rather than be funds diverted from some more needy expenditure, as we all know there are plenty of problems down here in the free state re health, education, lack of infrastructure..... I'd say any of these area's would be damned glad of the 5 million.
Brian O'Driscoll will get a nice tax rebate from the govt. once his playing days are over. By that stage he'll be a multi millionaire with a guaranteed future as a TV rugby pundit. I don't think GAA players need to feel guilty over this grant. The GAA makes millions for this country and the IC player plays an important role in this. Where lads are getting the notion that this is the end of the GAA is byond me.
A tax rebate based on the taxes he has paid over the years on monies generated from non-governmental sources - we all have various tax breaks we can avail of, the professional athletes one is another example. How does the gaa make millions for this country? Bar the money taken from nordies all monies are generated within the country ;)
DM, is this grass cutter one of your own members or is it someone brought in? I know you're an armagh man, what club are you from?
Marsden - see my post on the other thread -
Is your 6year old nephew a child prodigy with an interest in the housing market ? Is he old enough to join the GPA yet ? Maybe he'd be more adept at handling a debate than you ! ;D ;)
DM is from a fairly rich one given that the grass cutter gets £ 1700 per annum ?
You may not like my stance DM but to say that I'm not articulate is not the same as saying that I have nothing to contribute on a practical level to the debate !
Quote from: darbyo on December 01, 2007, 10:32:42 PM
That's a fair enough point Bensars but we can be fairly certain that most inter county players are serious about their sport and have dedicated a great deal of time and effort to it. The majority of club players don't train all year, some of course do, but they don't generate the same money as inter county players. As for the ladies, if they get the same deal that's fine by me but the GPA don't represent them.
I reckon we'll have a rash of lads heading off to thailand for the op, coming home, taking up the camog and getting their €2500!!
The thing that doesn't sit well with me, and I've never fully understood is the perception that there is this elite group of athletes, called 'inter-county players' - anyone who's played football at a decent level knows that the delineation isn't so pronounced, they know that for one thing, inter-county squads are transient, sure that gives us the hope we'll still get the call up prior to the first round of the championship, most club players at serious clubs, put in virtually the same effort as inter-county players, they've probably played county football at some level too, they don't see themselves as being different from the lads who're lucky enough to skive out of training cos they're off with the county.
Good enough point there Bogball - I wonder will the club player be looking for his few quid now too ?
I think I'll go along to this and report back to Dessie.
QuoteThe thing that doesn't sit well with me, and I've never fully understood is the perception that there is this elite group of athletes, called 'inter-county players' - anyone who's played football at a decent level knows that the delineation isn't so pronounced, they know that for one thing, inter-county squads are transient, sure that gives us the hope we'll still get the call up prior to the first round of the championship, most club players at serious clubs, put in virtually the same effort as inter-county players, they've probably played county football at some level too, they don't see themselves as being different from the lads who're lucky enough to skive out of training cos they're off with the county.
Funny that because I don't know how many times I've heard the 'grassroots GAA man' comment 'he's a good club player but he's not inter county standard.....there's a massive step up'. You take out the best 15 players from any county panel and the standard would drop significantly. There are certainly issues of fairness here, yes rowers, boxers, or athletes could look on at this and wonder what IC players do to deserve this. And top club footballers in Tyrone or top club hurlers in Kilkenny could ask what the Waterford footballers or Leitrim hurlers do that warrants getting a grant and they don't. But the money is miniscule and I don't think that the plight of rowers concerns to many here.
Quote from: darbyo on December 02, 2007, 12:07:39 PM
QuoteThe thing that doesn't sit well with me, and I've never fully understood is the perception that there is this elite group of athletes, called 'inter-county players' - anyone who's played football at a decent level knows that the delineation isn't so pronounced, they know that for one thing, inter-county squads are transient, sure that gives us the hope we'll still get the call up prior to the first round of the championship, most club players at serious clubs, put in virtually the same effort as inter-county players, they've probably played county football at some level too, they don't see themselves as being different from the lads who're lucky enough to skive out of training cos they're off with the county.
Funny that because I don't know how many times I've heard the 'grassroots GAA man' comment 'he's a good club player but he's not inter county standard.....there's a massive step up'. You take out the best 15 players from any county panel and the standard would drop significantly. There are certainly issues of fairness here, yes rowers, boxers, or athletes could look on at this and wonder what IC players do to deserve this. And top club footballers in Tyrone or top club hurlers in Kilkenny could ask what the Waterford footballers or Leitrim hurlers do that warrants getting a grant and they don't. But the money is miniscule and I don't think that the plight of rowers concerns to many here.
In Derry we normally talk about the county team in those terms :D, however I will reiterate what I said, out of the top 5/6 clubs in Derry (for example), I imagine there's barely a player who has not played county football.
You also mention that the standard would drop significantly if the top 15 players were removed from a county panel, indeed it would, but would anyone really care? If we want skill we'll all head off and watch Barcelona play every weekend.
You state that the money is miniscule, I agree, it's not much, it's certainly not going to make a difference to any of the lads who are out of pocket to the tune of €100K over their inter-county career (well if they manage to hang in there for 50 seasons, I suppose), Lynchbhoy made a suggestion the other day, which, unusually for him, reeked of common sense. He suggested that the grants are put into an intercounty welfare fund, to assist with injuries, players falling on hard times etc, to me that would be worthwhile (while I'm still upset that, I, as a southern taxpayer will have to fund this, unlike many of you who are in favour of the scheme) and equitable, we'll even let Desso administer it.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 02, 2007, 11:35:32 AM
DM, is this grass cutter one of your own members or is it someone brought in? I know you're an armagh man, what club are you from?
He's from our club but has the equipment. he also services other clubs in the area at a steeper rate.
One quick question to those in favour of the grants, what do you think would happen if the govt. were to remove the funding?
Well it's all speculation at the moment but I would hope that that would be an issue for the GPA and the government. I wouldn't support the GAA picking up the tab, this is a grant from the government if they stop paying then that's it as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: DMarsden on December 02, 2007, 01:04:16 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 02, 2007, 11:35:32 AM
DM, is this grass cutter one of your own members or is it someone brought in? I know you're an armagh man, what club are you from?
He's from our club but has the equipment. he also services other clubs in the area at a steeper rate.
Well that's a little different than one of your memebers using the club's equipment and getting handed cash for the work.
Though you'd think he'd do his own club's on a voluntary basis!
volunteerism isn't as forthcoming as it used to be. i'm heavily involved in our social club and for years we operated a rotation for the weekends so most members did 1 or 2 nights a year. that no longer works and we pay competetive wages now to get the bog standard worker.
Colm Bradley might not be on his own ! What do they do with money that is not taken up ? Where does it go ?
I also read in todays Irish mail that Derry county board officials won't approve the grants next week - this story is set to run on a bit.
How exactly is this grant money going to be doled out?
Does every single person on a county panel get an equal amount? If not why not?
Does a person have to be a member of the GPA to get a slice of the pie?
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on December 02, 2007, 04:31:05 PM
How exactly is this grant money going to be doled out?
Does every single person on a county panel get an equal amount? If not why not?
Does a person have to be a member of the GPA to get a slice of the pie?
Why dont you start by reading the agreement, it's on the first or second page of the strike diverted thread.
In the GAA which was bequeathed to us; in which we were brought up in; and which we learned to cherish and respect, we do not:
Pay people to play our games and to use facilities that were put there totally by voluntary effort ... but then try to fool ourselves and others that we're still amateur
Undermine core GAA rules (ie Rule 11) in secret from our members but in collaboration with non-GAA bodies
Refuse to consult with the membership on issues of fundamental principle
Accept that there are two classes of GAA members – inter-County players who are paid and a lesser class of volunteers who merely serve their betters
Nor do we roll over and allow Ireland's greatest sporting and cultural organisation, and a bulwark against much of what's going wrong in Ireland today, to be destroyed through greed and selfishness.
If the sentiments above strike a chord with you, then please attend a public meeting at 7pm on Wednesday December 5th in the Elk Toomebridge....spread the word
Bí linn is cuidigh linn: come and join us ...do your bit!
I would love to go tho this meeting to see what people think can actually be done ??? Strike of some sort? Boycott? Wise up?
We can get the decision deferred to Congress in April.........so everyone can have a say
I can't see any member of the Armagh County Board getting involved in distributing this money.
What about other County Boards?
Quote from: Armagh Exile on December 02, 2007, 09:24:49 PM
I can't see any member of the Armagh County Board getting involved in distributing this money.
What about other County Boards?
Seriously?
I'd be shocked if they didnt do what they were told.
I would imagine that no county board will want to become involved in the doling out of money, it'll just lead to trouble, better to be able to blame a nameless official in Croke Park or the Sports council rather than start an all out player strike locally.
Another issue, that I'm not sure if people have raised on here, but players are going to lose whatever semblance of freedom they have left. The media will now be free to publish all incidences of player misdemeanour, there'll be no more sneaky pints, and woe betide the guy found smoking a joint. And then there's the supporters, you know the type, the ones who feel they've got the right to criticise their own players constantly, the bar has just been raised in terms of vitriol that players will have to put up with.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 02, 2007, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: Armagh Exile on December 02, 2007, 09:24:49 PM
I can't see any member of the Armagh County Board getting involved in distributing this money.
What about other County Boards?
Seriously?
I'd be shocked if they didnt do what they were told.
Give Patrick Og something to do.
Sure isn't that what he's paid to do?
i would incourage people to attend the meeting on wed night,the gpa are taking the grassroots member and for that matter players for a ride,what we have is men like donal og and farrell on a self appointed ego trip,we have all read on how they intend to hand out this money and i can tell you the mayo hurlers are no better off now than before.the top players and countys will get rewarded with the smaller county getting a tokenship and slap on the back.another thing has to be asked,every time the gpa dont get there way are they going to through the dummy out of the pram and threaten strike?dont just sit back and let them dictate let them know what the grassroot member thinks,be there!
Irish News today has a good write-up on it
Lads, make sure that you spread the word, tell you club members etc etc......the main focus on the meeting will be to put pressure on central council to defer the decision on grants to a special congress or to the congress in April.....there needs to be the same level of debate and consultation over this issue as there was over the changes to rules 21 and 42.
Nicky Brennan has agreed - it's going to be impossible to turn the clock back - SADLY ! >:(
i am of the opinoin that the gaa should of called there bluff and let them strike this would have finished the gpa as we know.
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on December 03, 2007, 10:15:03 AM
i would incourage people to attend the meeting on wed night,the gpa are taking the grassroots member and for that matter players for a ride,what we have is men like donal og and farrell on a self appointed ego trip,we have all read on how they intend to hand out this money and i can tell you the mayo hurlers are no better off now than before.the top players and countys will get rewarded with the smaller county getting a tokenship and slap on the back.another thing has to be asked,every time the gpa dont get there way are they going to through the dummy out of the pram and threaten strike?dont just sit back and let them dictate let them know what the grassroot member thinks,be there!
I'd be interested to know how you think they're self appointed?
reading simon bradley's article yesterday in the tribune, it appears that this issue has got a long way to run just yet. He ahs already sponsored a motion to go to the fermanagh convention which will ensure that this issue will have to be voted on a congress, will it get through a full sitting of congress?
Quote from: DMarsden on December 03, 2007, 10:50:14 AM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on December 03, 2007, 10:15:03 AM
i would incourage people to attend the meeting on wed night,the gpa are taking the grassroots member and for that matter players for a ride,what we have is men like donal og and farrell on a self appointed ego trip,we have all read on how they intend to hand out this money and i can tell you the mayo hurlers are no better off now than before.the top players and countys will get rewarded with the smaller county getting a tokenship and slap on the back.another thing has to be asked,every time the gpa dont get there way are they going to through the dummy out of the pram and threaten strike?dont just sit back and let them dictate let them know what the grassroot member thinks,be there!
I'd be interested to know how you think they're self appointed?
who put them in there positions
Quote from: DMarsden on December 03, 2007, 10:50:14 AM
I'd be interested to know how you think they're self appointed?
They appointed themselves outside the usual processes used by other GAA members, what makes you think they're not self appointed?
As far as i know, and i could be wrong, Cusack is the chairman of the players body, voted for by the members as in any club in the country. Farrell is the chief executive, appointed by an interview panel after an interview process, as with any job in the country.
Quotethe top players and countys will get rewarded with the smaller county getting a tokenship and slap on the back.
Ah now lads, if you were to take this as fact you'd think the Tyrone footballers were getting €50,000 per year while the Mayo hurlers were getting free togs and socks. The money ranges from approx. €1000 to €3000 in other words something for everybody. There are some good arguments for not supporting the grants, the above statement isn't one of them.
I know nothing about any company. all i know is that the gaelic players association has a chairman, secretary, etc as every club in the country has, voted for by the membership. they also have a full time chief executive and clerical secretary to look after a variety of issues. you're better informed than me in this area if what you say is true.
I presume they need to have a company for dealing with image rights, etc?
the power comes from the playing body.
They have set up a company and it is limited in terms of its potential liabilities - it will also be able to avail of the 10% corporation tax on any profits -
Taken from Orchard County:
"The backlash to the historic decision to allocate grants to inter-county players is already being felt with an open meeting to canvass opinion on the deal set to take place in Toome, Co. Antrim on this Wednesday night 5th December.
An email being circulated by the organisers describes the agreement between the Government, Irish Sports Council, GAA and GPA as an "absolutely seismic shift in GAA policy" and adds: "if you're concerned about this whole issue, please come along."
Former Armagh player Barry O'Hagan, who now works as Sports Development Officer for Derry City Council, will chair the meeting at The Elk Entertainment Complex, while it's understood that former GAA president Peter Quinn and former GAA Trustee Jimmy Treacy may also attend.
One of the organisers, Mark Conway, makes no secret of his opposition to the grants scheme which will see inter-county players pocket up to €2,500 each per year.
"This meeting is just to test the water because, in the circles I move in, there is huge concern about this. The firm belief is that, no matter what anyone calls it, this is 'pay for play'," he said.
"Fellas are going to get money because they play Gaelic football or hurling at a particular level, and on that basis of other things they will do in return.
"It's elitist as well, it divides the GAA in two. There will now be the GAA volunteer, who's supposed to do everything for nothing. People like me did that for 123 years - that gave us what we have now.
"Now apparently, some people think that around 1,800 elite inter-county players will be paid money to do what they do.
In conclusion the well respected Tyrone official concluded by stating "Meanwhile, everyone else should continue to do what they do for nothing. Not only that, it seems the unpaid volunteers will be expected to administer the paying of the money to these players."
Three County Boards have motions in from clubs against the GAA distributing the player grants:
Fermanagh
Tyrone
Derry
If these motions are approved they will have to go to congress!!!!!!!
Good on you lads - the more the merrier !
Once again, the GAA board is on top of the GA Agenda. We were in with this story a full 3 days before the irish News got it!!!
Thats very good news. Hope Peter Quinn is there. Strongest and most progressive President i can remember.
One things for sure, as i have stated earlier, if he was President today we wouldnt be in the mess we are
Brennan has keeled over and given in to the threats - I think he was thinking more of the TV rights and the money that he can't wait to get his hands on it !! ;) :D ;D ;) :D :D ;D
Point very well made. With TV negotiations agendas currently occupying the main halls of concrete crocaigh it appears the strike unceratinties may well have been weakening the GAAs position whilst strenthening the professionals.
>:( >:( >:( >:(
I am so saddened and sickened by the hypocrisy shown on this board. I came on some time ago hoping that there would be some rational debate but instead find people on here with what are obviously POLITICAL agendas, either as GAA administrators or people who are point blank against change. Apart from the few who, like me get fed up with arguing with bigots.
For all those who are calling a meeting you might want to put the following on your agenda :
1) NO MORE PAYMENTS TO ANYONE -MANAGERS/ADMINISTRATORS. NO MILEAGE EXPENSES, TICKET ALLOWENCES, UNDER THE TABLE PAYMENTS, STUDENT GRANTS, ADMINISTRATORS GRANTS, MANAGERS, PHYSIOS, DOCTORS ETC. - ALL OF WHICH ARE CURRENTLY IN PLACE
2) PUT AN END TO THE PROFESSIONAL BODY THAT IS CROKE PARK STADIUMS - WHO ACCEPT AND NEGOIATE CORPORATE HOSPITALITY AND SPONSORSHIP ON YOUR BEHALF
3) BAN ALL SPONSORSHIP FULL STOP (jerseys, pitch signage etc)
4) ACCEPT NO MONEY FROM TV RIGHTS
5) GET RID OF THE TWO TIERED ELITE INTER COUNTY COMPETITION THAT WE - THE GAA GRASSROOTS HAS STOOD OVER FOR ALL THESE YEARS. LETS STOP PAYING LIP SERVICE TO CLUBS AND RETURN TO WHAT REALLY MATTERS - CLUB COMPETITION AND THAT'S IT - NO ELITE TIER
6) BOYCOTT ALL INTER COUNTY GAMES
LETS GO BACK TO THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHERE NO ONE HAD A POT TO PISS IN. YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT BUT THE SUCCESS OF THIS ORGANISATION HAS BEEN BUILT ON THE SUCESS OF ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN IT NOT JUST YOU THE OPPOSSERS. WE ALL WORK AND PLAY FOR OUR CLUBS AND I FOR ONE ADMIRE AND ASPIRE TO BE LIKE AN INTER COUNTY PLAYER WHO ARE PROFESSIONAL IN EVERY WAY BUT NAME....AND WHY ARE THEY LIKE THIS? BECAUSE THATS WHAT WE HAVE CREATED, WHAT WE HAVE DEMANDED! WILLING OUR TEAMS TO GO THAT EXTRA MILE FOR SUCCESS.
ALSO I AM SICK TO THE BACK TEETH OF READING HOW YOU REPRESENT THE GRASS ROOTS OF THIS ASSOCATION - YOU DON'T !! YOU REPRESENT THE VIEW OF VERY NEGATIVE, ANTI-CHANGE MINORITY.
ANYONE INVOVLED IN GRASSROOTS (AS I AM MYSELF) WOULD NOT IN A MILLION YEARS HAVE THE TIME TO SIT HERE DAY IN DAY OUT MOANING ON ABOUT HOW THE WORLD IS GOING TO END IF THE ASSOCIATION CHANGES. WHICH IS WHY THERE ARE SO FEW REALL GAA PEOPLE ON HERE. I KNOW THERE WILL BE ANOTHER PAGE OR TWO OF RESPONSES TO THIS COMMENT BUT TO BE HONEST I DON'T CARE, I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO BE DOING LIKE HOLDING DOWN A JOB AND BRINGING MY SON TO TRAINING AFTER WORK AND BEING PART OF THE BEST ASSOCIATION IN THE WORLD. ONE THAT I FOR ONE, AM VERY PROUD OF AND I HOPE WILL PROGRESS EVEN FURTHER SO AS TO PROVIDE FUTURE GENERATIONS LIKE MY OWN SON WITH A GREAT, STRONG AND PROUD ORGANISTION.
Agree with the sentiments entirely.
Dear Clubmember,
That's a very impressive contribution. Unfortunately, I can't see one ounce of sense in your whole extended tirade. Your case seems to distil down to the ludicrous suggestion that the GAA, the biggest sports organisation in the country, should not hire employees, but should be run entirely on a part time basis by volunteers and should run the association and the games without any income. That's a childish level of understanding of the difference between amateurism and professionalism when it comes to PLAYING the games.
Clearly you don't understand the difference between a job and a hobby.
Yours sincerely,
A bigotted resister of change.
Quote from: Clubmember on December 04, 2007, 12:23:03 PM
WHICH IS WHY THERE ARE SO FEW REALL GAA PEOPLE ON HERE
who the f**k are you to judge who are real gaa people?
you say we "REPRESENT THE VIEW OF VERY NEGATIVE, ANTI-CHANGE MINORITY."
i doubt it is a minority amng the lower class of the gaa saying as the players are the elite
if you are "so saddened and sickened by the hypocrisy shown on this board" dont let the door hit you on the way out, nobody is making you come here the same way as nobody is making people play gaelic game
Quote from: Hardy on December 04, 2007, 01:00:02 PM
Dear Clubmember,
That's a very impressive contribution. Unfortunately, I can't see one ounce of sense in your whole extended tirade. Your case seems to distil down to the ludicrous suggestion that the GAA, the biggest sports organisation in the country, should not hire employees, but should be run entirely on a part time basis by volunteers and should run the association and the games without any income. That's a childish level of understanding of the difference between amateurism and professionalism when it comes to PLAYING the games.
Clearly you don't understand the difference between a job and a hobby.
Yours sincerely,
A bigotted resistor of change.
There is my point proved. I'm all for paid administrators and paid professionals they should be a requirement in an organisation of this size as most clubs and county board are big businesses but you can not turn around and suggest that the biggest revenue generator of this organisation should then be told - to shut up and put up - "if you don't want to do it walk away". An inter county player (who pays for the administrators you refer to from the revenue they generate) puts in just as much time and commitment as any paid administrator. How dare anyone here question their motives or integrity or love of their county or club jersey. Of course they do it for the love of the game - do you honestly think €2000 is going to stop them. This is about respect and recognition. The same recognition and respect you have no problem giving to administrators of the GAA.
By the way anyone who refers to playing inter county hurling or football as a "hobby" has obviously never played at that level or has his head so far lodged in the sand he can't see what's happening around him.
Quote from: Clubmember on December 04, 2007, 12:23:03 PM
>:( >:( >:( >:(
I am so saddened and sickened by the hypocrisy shown on this board. I came on some time ago hoping that there would be some rational debate but instead find people on here with what are obviously POLITICAL agendas, either as GAA administrators or people who are point blank against change. Apart from the few who, like me get fed up with arguing with bigots.
For all those who are calling a meeting you might want to put the following on your agenda :
1) NO MORE PAYMENTS TO ANYONE -MANAGERS/ADMINISTRATORS. NO MILEAGE EXPENSES, TICKET ALLOWENCES, UNDER THE TABLE PAYMENTS, STUDENT GRANTS, ADMINISTRATORS GRANTS, MANAGERS, PHYSIOS, DOCTORS ETC. - ALL OF WHICH ARE CURRENTLY IN PLACE
2) PUT AN END TO THE PROFESSIONAL BODY THAT IS CROKE PARK STADIUMS - WHO ACCEPT AND NEGOIATE CORPORATE HOSPITALITY AND SPONSORSHIP ON YOUR BEHALF
3) BAN ALL SPONSORSHIP FULL STOP (jerseys, pitch signage etc)
4) ACCEPT NO MONEY FROM TV RIGHTS
5) GET RID OF THE TWO TIERED ELITE INTER COUNTY COMPETITION THAT WE - THE GAA GRASSROOTS HAS STOOD OVER FOR ALL THESE YEARS. LETS STOP PAYING LIP SERVICE TO CLUBS AND RETURN TO WHAT REALLY MATTERS - CLUB COMPETITION AND THAT'S IT - NO ELITE TIER
6) BOYCOTT ALL INTER COUNTY GAMES
LETS GO BACK TO THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHERE NO ONE HAD A POT TO PISS IN. YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT BUT THE SUCCESS OF THIS ORGANISATION HAS BEEN BUILT ON THE SUCESS OF ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN IT NOT JUST YOU THE OPPOSSERS. WE ALL WORK AND PLAY FOR OUR CLUBS AND I FOR ONE ADMIRE AND ASPIRE TO BE LIKE AN INTER COUNTY PLAYER WHO ARE PROFESSIONAL IN EVERY WAY BUT NAME....AND WHY ARE THEY LIKE THIS? BECAUSE THATS WHAT WE HAVE CREATED, WHAT WE HAVE DEMANDED! WILLING OUR TEAMS TO GO THAT EXTRA MILE FOR SUCCESS.
ALSO I AM SICK TO THE BACK TEETH OF READING HOW YOU REPRESENT THE GRASS ROOTS OF THIS ASSOCATION - YOU DON'T !! YOU REPRESENT THE VIEW OF VERY NEGATIVE, ANTI-CHANGE MINORITY.
ANYONE INVOVLED IN GRASSROOTS (AS I AM MYSELF) WOULD NOT IN A MILLION YEARS HAVE THE TIME TO SIT HERE DAY IN DAY OUT MOANING ON ABOUT HOW THE WORLD IS GOING TO END IF THE ASSOCIATION CHANGES. WHICH IS WHY THERE ARE SO FEW REALL GAA PEOPLE ON HERE. I KNOW THERE WILL BE ANOTHER PAGE OR TWO OF RESPONSES TO THIS COMMENT BUT TO BE HONEST I DON'T CARE, I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO BE DOING LIKE HOLDING DOWN A JOB AND BRINGING MY SON TO TRAINING AFTER WORK AND BEING PART OF THE BEST ASSOCIATION IN THE WORLD. ONE THAT I FOR ONE, AM VERY PROUD OF AND I HOPE WILL PROGRESS EVEN FURTHER SO AS TO PROVIDE FUTURE GENERATIONS LIKE MY OWN SON WITH A GREAT, STRONG AND PROUD ORGANISTION.
from 1 extreme to another,there is middle ground and with the right approach this can be achieved,i remeber well when the gpa came into existance and there aims were very reasonable and really did make a differance eg.players welfare which includes good mileage expenses,meals,trainning gear etc,but what is happening now could have a depramental effect on the gaa as we know it.if grant money is available why not share it equally between each county and put it in a injury fund where a player who is injured and misses work due to being injured can get his wages paid,this is just one example of how this grant money can be used rather than just pay for play.i know people have a genuine argument about managers being paid and although i agree in theory with this management has now become a full time job and a manager is able to change club or county on a yearly basis and more importantly there is no hard and fast officail rule which prevents managers from being paid whereas making this grant scheme official will open a real can of worms.
Quote from: altovito on December 04, 2007, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: Clubmember on December 04, 2007, 12:23:03 PM
WHICH IS WHY THERE ARE SO FEW REALL GAA PEOPLE ON HERE
who the f**k are you to judge who are real gaa people?
you say we "REPRESENT THE VIEW OF VERY NEGATIVE, ANTI-CHANGE MINORITY."
i doubt it is a minority amng the lower class of the gaa saying as the players are the elite
if you are "so saddened and sickened by the hypocrisy shown on this board" dont let the door hit you on the way out, nobody is making you come here the same way as nobody is making people play gaelic game
EXACTLY!!!! And who the f**k are you to judge who real GAA people are? It's done here all the time! I'm a real GAA person as are all of the players and supporters of players getting this grants. I'm all for debate and free speech but don't judge me or anyone else here personally. Maybe a taste of the personal attacks that are launched out here on a daily basis it too much for you to take in return. Don't understand your remark bout lower class of GAA whatever the hell that is. As per my first post here a real debate BASED ON FACTS not on what's talked about in the club bar just doesn't cut it, if you don't agree with suspicions and scaremongering that's written here - get off the board!!!
QuoteThat's a childish level of understanding of the difference between amateurism and professionalism when it comes to PLAYING the games.
When does amateur become professional.......when you start to get paid for.....the now full time professional position of county administrator was previously a hobby of the volunteer, whenever this position became a professional paid role, there was not as much a whimp about it. The full time professional coaches that each county has was the one that was previously occupied with the volunteer. what has happened is that the player has been the one thing that has underpinned the devlopment of the association, yet the player is the one person who has been treated the worst, the longest. This espisode is further evidence of members still willing to ensure the player is just another member where infact they are the single most important asset we have. many of the contributors seem scared and intraverted in their position, have no confidence in our officers to manage this correctly. Here we have an opportunity to ensure that our players are aforded the opportunity to be treated the same as the other sports men in this country by getting a grant from the GOVERNMENT, no the GAA. Why is that peoples lack of confidence allows them to paint a picture of players getting paid, when it is not payment. You have sat idolly by when universities players were getting grants, is that because it was out of sight for the mass majority and therefore not in your face. No this stinks of begrudgment of the highest order. Again frommy point of view if it was the Gaa was paying, I would be up in arms. This is so Irish and typical parochial in nature and tone.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 04, 2007, 01:34:44 PM
QuoteThat's a childish level of understanding of the difference between amateurism and professionalism when it comes to PLAYING the games.
When does amateur become professional.......when you start to get paid for.....the now full time professional position of county administrator was previously a hobby of the volunteer, whenever this position became a professional paid role, there was not as much a whimp about it. The full time professional coaches that each county has was the one that was previously occupied with the volunteer. what has happened is that the player has been the one thing that has underpinned the devlopment of the association, yet the player is the one person who has been treated the worst, the longest. This espisode is further evidence of members still willing to ensure the player is just another member where infact they are the single most important asset we have. many of the contributors seem scared and intraverted in their position, have no confidence in our officers to manage this correctly. Here we have an opportunity to ensure that our players are aforded the opportunity to be treated the same as the other sports men in this country by getting a grant from the GOVERNMENT, no the GAA. Why is that peoples lack of confidence allows them to paint a picture of players getting paid, when it is not payment. You have sat idolly by when universities players were getting grants, is that because it was out of sight for the mass majority and therefore not in your face. No this stinks of begrudgment of the highest order. Again frommy point of view if it was the Gaa was paying, I would be up in arms. This is so Irish and typical parochial in nature and tone.
VERY WELL PUT HEAR HEAR ;D
Clubmember
Quote
1) NO MORE PAYMENTS TO ANYONE -MANAGERS/ADMINISTRATORS. NO MILEAGE EXPENSES, TICKET ALLOWENCES, UNDER THE TABLE PAYMENTS, STUDENT GRANTS, ADMINISTRATORS GRANTS, MANAGERS, PHYSIOS, DOCTORS ETC. - ALL OF WHICH ARE CURRENTLY IN PLACE
I don't have time now to read all of your post or the replies but this point I have to quickly comment on.
Say my club has no physio or doctor as a member - can you please tell me how we're going to get a physio or doctor?
The GAA are a voluntary organisation - they are not a charity!
Quote from: tram on December 04, 2007, 01:41:28 PM
In my experience, anyone who defines something as "real" as in "real music", "real Irishman" or "real GAA man" is really saying "it's exactly what I do or what I like. No doubt I'll get SHOUTED down and insulted over it.
IMHO this matter should be treated in the same way that the old Rules 21 & 42 should be dealt with where consolutation was taken at first to club levels, then county and then to central council. That way the democratic structures of the GAA, although they're not perfect they're what we have, can be fully implemented to allow all members a say. Both sides of this matter claim to have the support of "grassroots" and so should have nothing to fear from such an exercise.
Agreed. I just don't like the way the terms grassroots is refferred to all the time hear. i.e. the title of this thread "Meeting of Grassroots to discuss our Strategy re GPA" - What the hell is that about? So some people have an issue with the GPA, why not address it to them directly? Call to their door and ask them to answer the questions they have? If I have an issue with my club i would address it to chairman not bitch about it, which a lot of people do. If I think GAA are out of order I will send Nickey Brennan a letter. It's really quite simple. Has anyone here actually done that yet??? ???
Quote from: Clubmember on December 04, 2007, 01:23:22 PM
Of course they do it for the love of the game - do you honestly think €2000 is going to stop them. This is about respect and recognition.
Obviously a very hostile person clubmember
The above quote goes to prove you know very little about what you are talking about
Unless I am mistaken, the 2k was going to stop the players - they voted to strike unless they got it
don't have time now to read all of your post or the replies but this point I have to quickly comment on.
Say my club has no physio or doctor as a member - can you please tell me how we're going to get a physio or doctor?
The GAA are a voluntary organisation - they are not a charity!
As already stated you have proved my point - it's ok for a physio or doctor to be paid. This is a new thing - previously these roles were done by volunteers "FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME" - now it's ok for them to be paid.
Quote from: tram on December 04, 2007, 01:52:13 PM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 04, 2007, 01:34:44 PM
QuoteThat's a childish level of understanding of the difference between amateurism and professionalism when it comes to PLAYING the games.
When does amateur become professional.......when you start to get paid for.....the now full time professional position of county administrator was previously a hobby of the volunteer, whenever this position became a professional paid role, there was not as much a whimp about it. The full time professional coaches that each county has was the one that was previously occupied with the volunteer. what has happened is that the player has been the one thing that has underpinned the devlopment of the association, yet the player is the one person who has been treated the worst, the longest. This espisode is further evidence of members still willing to ensure the player is just another member where infact they are the single most important asset we have. many of the contributors seem scared and intraverted in their position, have no confidence in our officers to manage this correctly. Here we have an opportunity to ensure that our players are aforded the opportunity to be treated the same as the other sports men in this country by getting a grant from the GOVERNMENT, no the GAA. Why is that peoples lack of confidence allows them to paint a picture of players getting paid, when it is not payment. You have sat idolly by when universities players were getting grants, is that because it was out of sight for the mass majority and therefore not in your face. No this stinks of begrudgment of the highest order. Again frommy point of view if it was the Gaa was paying, I would be up in arms. This is so Irish and typical parochial in nature and tone.
The difference I see it MM is that these paid postitions are for full time posts, designed so that the person employed in this postition (which have to go through standard employment procedures i.e. job application, interview, qualifications etc. They are not offered as a reward) can devote their working time of 37 hours a week plus to the association for its sustained running and development. Intercounty players are not giving up their day jobs to compete for their counties, and are there by invitation to play at this level.
My point is that there was not a word of complaint whenever these volunteering position were turned into full time professional posts, whether it was previously the county sec position changes to full time admin officer etc. This is not play for play. Anyone who argues that it is...well lets say, being called a slow learner would be polite. For it to be construded in any way aa pay, it would have to paid by the company who you work for...and the players do not work work/play for the government. Its a grant, similar to the grant players gets to play GAA at the universities. As I said before it stinks of begrydger and so typically paraochial in nature and tone.
club member, if my club had no access to a doctor who'd do it voluntary. what should we do?
Quote from: Clubmember on December 04, 2007, 01:48:55 PM
If I think GAA are out of order I will send Nickey Brennan a letter. It's really quite simple. Has anyone here actually done that yet??? ???
The last time Nicky Brennan got a letter about the GPA, I recall hysterical rantings from Herr Farrell and we had Sean Cavanagh telling us the Tyrone County Board didn't speak for the County.
maximus that is your interpretation of it -we must be an association of slow learners because the vast majority are dead against these proposals. That's a lot of people but of course you're probably right and everyone else is wrong.The reason why it didn't go through the clubs like rule 21 and 42 was because it would have been beaten and the GPA are well aware of that. Regardless of the merits of it this is a fundamental change in policy of the GAA whether they like it or not and should be dealth with in procedure similar to rule 21 and rule 42.
this is another thing that really grinds my gears,we have people on heredebating the rights and wrongs of the grant sheme and the gpa in general but if someone is against this sheme or gpa (apart from a few) rant and rave and give dogs abuse,can the gpa not take critisism or debate or god forbid disagree?can our journalists not raise the topic without being blackmailed?dessie farrell lunches a obsene attack on these people and then offers them on,this is real schoolboy behaviour from the leader of this organisation,infact it's more like nazi propaganda.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 04, 2007, 02:02:38 PM
club member, if my club had no access to a doctor who'd do it voluntary. what should we do?
Can't players see physios / doctors on their own time?
Obviously i don't believe that should be the case. rather, i'm trying to demonstrate a flaw in thinking dependent on the answer.
The physios of this country make a small fortune on top of their regular jobs out of the GAA, many of them actually opening full time practices on the strength of the work.
a lot f clubs pay to have physios at every training session. how do the thousands of soccer clubs in the country do without physios at games?
To clubmember, max etc,
for the last time, you cannot compare paid administrators/ physios to players. players play because they enjoy it, well that is my sole reason for playing gaelic football anyway.
this is not the same as the role of administrator or physio - it is a JOB. i would doubt it if you could find a physio anywhere in the country who will come to my club one night per week to treat injured players simply because he/she enjoys it.
the same applies to full time administrators in counties. the roles these administrators play are now so complex that it is a full time job keeping up. it is therefore treated as such. i cannot see where the problem lies here. it is ok to ask people to donate some of their spare time, or in some cases all of their spare time, however when the workload becomes fulltime it must be treated as such.
both the roles mentioned above cannot in any way be compared to the role played by players. it is the players who are the focal point of the association, it is they who get most out of it. if they cannot afford the time to play sport (which is common today) then so be it. what people must understand is that the paid positions in the gaa are for the benefit of the players, no one else. bottom line, you should not be able to receive money for taking part in your chosen hobby. if it is taking up too much of your time then maybe you should consider lessening your involvement or quitting altogether.
*******by the way, the reason no one has any qualms about higher education students receiving grants is because everyone knows that they are almost necessary. with spiralling student debts almost all students work part time. inter county players do not have the time to balance a part time job/ training with their studies. its not that people turn a blind eye to this, the majority actually support it. it is one of the good things the gpa do. but again to say this can be compared to the grants issue is not on. it is completely different principle.
Tyrone,
You say the last time Nickey Brennan received a letter about the GPA "I recall hysterical rantings from Herr Farrell and we had Sean Cavanagh telling us the Tyrone County Board didn't speak for the County"
Firstly; What were the hysterical rantings?
Secondly ; Were Sean Cavanagh and Tyrone players consulted on contents before the board spoke on their behalf?
Why are Sean and the rest of the inter county lads being slated for defending their own position! As I recall they sent out a statement saying their views were not reflected in the county board letter, as far as I'm awarer that's called FREE SPEECH and RIGHT TO REPLY.
Several people on this board in the past have emailed the GPA on different matters and most of them receive no reply" -
Again is this an actual FACT or just more of the same speculation that flies around here constantly. My point is why not as a group draft a collective letter that reflects your views - send it to the GPA and if you're not happy with the answers that's fair enough.
Clubmember
Quote from: Clubmember on December 04, 2007, 01:23:22 PM
Of course they do it for the love of the game - do you honestly think €2000 is going to stop them.
How can you justify this?
The players were going to strike unless they got the money ???
Quote from: Clubmember on December 04, 2007, 02:54:48 PM
as far as I'm awarer that's called FREE SPEECH and RIGHT TO REPLY.
you need to tell this to mr farrell and co.
yes the tyrone county board do speak on behalf of the county players, they also speak on behalf of all gaels in tyrone. that is what they are elected to do. the positions are elected at the county convention each year. if sean doesnt think they represent his interests then maybe he should run for one of the posts on the board.
Blantently stolen from JQ from 16/2/07
QuoteEarlier on Friday, Tyrone football star Sean Cavanagh rejected the board's criticisms and he now has been joined by his county colleagues in making clear their displeasure at the county board's actions.
"They were not speaking for me or the Tyrone footballers, or the majority of GAA people in this county," he said.
He added: "I totally reject the comments made by the Tyrone county board in this letter.
"The players have earned the right to be officially recognised through the GPA."
There you have it - apparently the TCB don't speak for the county.
As for Dessie and hysterical rantings, I can't find any online off hand but I recall a less than complimentary attitude towards Pat Darcy and the TCB. Might be a slight bit of hyperbole on my part but both go hand in hand - much like fish and chips, salt and vinegar etc etc.
Sorry if I'm labouring a point made by others, but ...
Maximus and Clubmember - I'm finding it very hard to believe that you can't distinguish between paying somebody money to do a job and paying people to participate in their chosen sport.
The position of full time county secretary, for instance, was created so that a better service could be provided to the players, who are the ultimate beneficiaries of every effort of every volunteer in the GAA and of (nearly) every penny spent. All of this money is spent and all of the voluntary effort is expended with one purpose - to facilitate the playing of Gaelic games by the players. For a small minority of players to fling that effort and investment, made for their benefit by the rest of the GAA membership, back in our collective faces and say "that's grand, but we want money as well and we won't play until we get it" is just unacceptable and can only be seen as greed.
The GPA people have the whole thing arseways in seeing themselves as the voluntary contributors who are insufficiently rewarded. It's the other way around. The players are the only real beneficiaries of the GAA's whole existence and the inter-county players the greatest beneficiaries of all. Most of the GAA's membership recognises this and most players actually pay a membership to the GAA for the privilege of playing and using the facilities provided by voluntary effort and judicious investment.
In short, the majority are happy to pay TO play. The greedy minority of opportunists want pay FOR play.
Lads I have watched this debate with a seriously keen interest.
I understand only too well the demands being placed on inter county hurlers and footballers in this modern era of the game they have never been greater at any time throughout our associations history. However were are on the edge of a serious schism.
Call it a grant or bursary it is infact pay for play.
The supreme reality is that we are an amatuer organisation and this flies in the face of this completely. Players are the ones who get the most out of this organisation especially the top players at the top counties, they get well looked after, have the best of gear and facilities and want for nothing in that respect. As well as this the top players are the only players that advertisers and sponsors are interested in, do you see Dessie running to get a Monaghan Hurler when the Play Station people come knocking?
The fact is they are elitiest organisation only in this to get out of as much as they can for as few as they can and they must be stopped. Yes the players are giving up alot of their time, but they choose to do this no one is at their ear with a gun forcing them to do it, if it is too much hold your hand up and say and no one will think less of you for doing so. I dont think that we can afford to let this issue slide much further, what do you think happens the next time the TV deal is up for renegoitiation, dessie will be there again with his hand out claiming image rights and looking their slice of the pie, this is the slippery slope.
All we have to do is look the rugby example in England and Wales, when they turned pro loads of clubs went to the wall because there wasnt the interest or support to go even semi-professional.
To the players out there I would say you have sold your soul and the soul of this organisation for 30 pieces of silver.
What impact is 1000 euro seriously going to make in you life, think about it 20euro a week and this is what you are destroying our organisation over. We are nearly worse because we are allowing them to destroy OUR organisation for 20euro a week.
Quote from: Clubmember on December 04, 2007, 01:53:58 PM
don't have time now to read all of your post or the replies but this point I have to quickly comment on.
Say my club has no physio or doctor as a member - can you please tell me how we're going to get a physio or doctor?
The GAA are a voluntary organisation - they are not a charity!
As already stated you have proved my point - it's ok for a physio or doctor to be paid. This is a new thing - previously these roles were done by volunteers "FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME" - now it's ok for them to be paid.
I'm sorry but anyone who brings up the "team bus driver, hot dog seller, physio, doctor" argument instantly loses any credibility on the issue of grants/payment as far as I'm concerned. I simply cannot understand how people cannot differentiate between someone doing their job,
THEIR FULL-TIME JOB, and being paid for their services, and someone training a few hours a week in either football or hurling with a game at the weekend (if they're lucky). I've never seen a physio run on the field and block a man taking a shot. I've never seen the team doctor fielding high balls at centrefield. I've never seen the hot dog seller score the winning goal in a big derby game. Is being a modern intercounty player such a joyless existence that some of them actually now look upon themselves just as people doing a job? A job for which they are not paid, but on the back of which, others are?
I would dearly love to attend this meeting to voice my concerns about the GPA. Unforunately I will not be able to make it, but rest assured I fully back this initiative.
Quote from: NAG on December 04, 2007, 04:06:49 PM
Call it a grant or bursary it is infact pay for play.
You are stupid...it is not play for play. It is only pay when the directors you play for pay you that it will become pay. When have you ever gotten paid by some other organisation that you don't work for, that is why it is not play and why Croke park is not paying a grant to the players...its THE GOVERNMENT..... why is it the posters keep changing the facts
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 04, 2007, 04:47:28 PM
Quote from: NAG on December 04, 2007, 04:06:49 PM
Call it a grant or bursary it is infact pay for play.
You are stupid...it is not play for play. It is only pay when the directors you play for pay you that it will become pay. When have you ever gotten paid by some other organisation that you don't work for, that is why it is not play and why Croke park is not paying a grant to the players...its THE GOVERNMENT..... why is it the posters keep changing the facts
So if there's no grant, what happens? Oh yes.... they don't play!
Quote from: behind the wire on December 04, 2007, 02:52:35 PM
To clubmember, max etc,
for the last time, you cannot compare paid administrators/ physios to players. players play because they enjoy it, well that is my sole reason for playing gaelic football anyway.
this is not the same as the role of administrator or physio - it is a JOB. i would doubt it if you could find a physio anywhere in the country who will come to my club one night per week to treat injured players simply because he/she enjoys it.
the same applies to full time administrators in counties. the roles these administrators play are now so complex that it is a full time job keeping up. it is therefore treated as such. i cannot see where the problem lies here. it is ok to ask people to donate some of their spare time, or in some cases all of their spare time, however when the workload becomes fulltime it must be treated as such.
both the roles mentioned above cannot in any way be compared to the role played by players. it is the players who are the focal point of the association, it is they who get most out of it. if they cannot afford the time to play sport (which is common today) then so be it. what people must understand is that the paid positions in the gaa are for the benefit of the players, no one else. bottom line, you should not be able to receive money for taking part in your chosen hobby. if it is taking up too much of your time then maybe you should consider lessening your involvement or quitting altogether.
*******by the way, the reason no one has any qualms about higher education students receiving grants is because everyone knows that they are almost necessary. with spiralling student debts almost all students work part time. inter county players do not have the time to balance a part time job/ training with their studies. its not that people turn a blind eye to this, the majority actually support it. it is one of the good things the gpa do. but again to say this can be compared to the grants issue is not on. it is completely different principle.
for the last time, you r full time county administrator was a volunteer 5 years ago...this work before that, was done by the county sec.....I never heard you complain about. The total hyprosciry of your agrument is stated in your repsonse that its OK for student to get a grant, but not OK for county players to get a grant :o please stop...your a joke. These paid possitions have crept into the Gaa and we have all accepted it, but when a player hets the chance to have grant givenm tohim by the GOVERNMENT, we think the association is doomed. Join the DUP FFS.
Ziggy catch yourself on...you should know better. Not to many county players wopuld have followed through...you and i know that...and this is the crux. I think were more pissed off withthe GPA threat rather than the a GOVERNMENT grants to our fellow county players
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 04, 2007, 04:54:24 PM
Ziggy catch yourself on...you should know better. Not to many county players wopuld have followed through...you and i know that...and this is the crux. I think were more pissed off withthe GPA threat rather than the a GOVERNMENT grants to our fellow county players
How can you honestly say that with 100% certainy? The GPA would have been dead and buried if that was the case.
Quote from: ziggysego on December 04, 2007, 04:56:29 PM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 04, 2007, 04:54:24 PM
Ziggy catch yourself on...you should know better. Not to many county players wopuld have followed through...you and i know that...and this is the crux. I think were more pissed off withthe GPA threat rather than the a GOVERNMENT grants to our fellow county players
How can you honestly say that with 100% certainy? The GPA would have been dead and buried if that was the case.
maybe, but I think this still the crux for most and now see this as a chance to sqeeze them. also about this meeting, dangerous stuff, even all these great gaels are so pissed off why don't they do the democratic thing and go through the channels that already their to register their disgust. More hypo
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 04, 2007, 04:54:24 PM
for the last time, you r full time county administrator was a volunteer 5 years ago...this work before that, was done by the county sec.....I never heard you complain about. The total hyprosciry of your agrument is stated in your repsonse that its OK for student to get a grant, but not OK for county players to get a grant :o please stop...your a joke. These paid possitions have crept into the Gaa and we have all accepted it, but when a player hets the chance to have grant givenm tohim by the GOVERNMENT, we think the association is doomed. Join the DUP FFS.
Ziggy catch yourself on...you should know better. Not to many county players wopuld have followed through...you and i know that...and this is the crux. I think were more pissed off withthe GPA threat rather than the a GOVERNMENT grants to our fellow county players
That's a fair enough point, but was or was not the issue with a getting a tax rebate rather than cash in hand that students couldn't benefit from the rebate because they weren't working. Surely if they're getting grants from the government now then the University / "GPA" grants / scholarships should be obsolete?
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 04, 2007, 04:54:24 PM
Ziggy catch yourself on...you should know better. Not to many county players wopuld have followed through...you and i know that...and this is the crux. I think were more pissed off withthe GPA threat rather than the a GOVERNMENT grants to our fellow county players
If not too many would have followed through, then why was it even mooted in the first place? You're right though, the GPA is what pisses people off, I'm not particularly against the grant, but I have no time for the GPA at all, they should not have been allowed to hold the association to ransom. The other thing about the grant Max, is that we really don't know where it's going to be funded from on an ongoing basis, yeah, this year the govt are paying it, that's not going to continue into infinity, who's going to pick up the slack?
Oh Sweet Jesus I give up. Maximus, I don't want to go in with the elbow and play the man, but where do you get off calling people stupid and a joke because they disagree with you. Especially when you yourself seem incapable of understanding the difference between a job and a sport and seem to be proposing some sort of happy fairyland where the resources of the GAA get administered by magic and a weird parallel universe in which the fact that people get paid for doing their jobs somehow validates the claims of others to be paid for their pastimes.
And now we hear that the fact that GAA players are to be paid for ...err ... playing GAA somehow, in your crazy world, doesn't amount to pay for play. Not only that, but the threat to strike if they didn't get it wasn't a strike threat at all, because (unknown to the rest of us but clear only to you) they didn't really mean it!!
And you're calling us stupid!
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 04, 2007, 04:58:55 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on December 04, 2007, 04:56:29 PM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 04, 2007, 04:54:24 PM
Ziggy catch yourself on...you should know better. Not to many county players wopuld have followed through...you and i know that...and this is the crux. I think were more pissed off withthe GPA threat rather than the a GOVERNMENT grants to our fellow county players
How can you honestly say that with 100% certainy? The GPA would have been dead and buried if that was the case.
maybe, but I think this still the crux for most and now see this as a chance to sqeeze them. also about this meeting, dangerous stuff, even all these great gaels are so pissed off why don't they do the democratic thing and go through the channels that already their to register their disgust. More hypo
i know what you are saying here max,if this meeting was being run by a pile of ejits i would see through it but they have men like mark conway and peter quinn involved who are very intelligent men and know what they are doing,it was dicussed at our general meeting last night when john mulholland brought it up and i know what he was saying but i also could understand why some members were cautious even though they were totally against pay for play,remeber this meeting is not a anti gpa meeting.i know we are talking about small amounts and they are from the goverment but what happens next when the gaa get bis tv deals?are the gpa going to sit back and not ask for money from the gaa,of course they not,and if they dont get what they want,dummy out of the pram and we are going to strike.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 04, 2007, 04:54:24 PM
Ziggy catch yourself on...you should know better. Not to many county players wopuld have followed through...you and i know that...
This is were the problem lies.
Supporters of the GPA are now saying ach we were not really going to strike & the players wouldnt have went through with it & it was only to get things moving.
This is bullsh1t - if players voted to strike, they were going to strike because they were not getting money .
No matter which way GPA supporters dress it up this is the scenario we were faced with & this p1sses an awful lot of people off.
BTW Clubman - I am waiting on you to get back to me
John O'Neill one of the organisers of tomorrow nights meeting in the Elk will be interviewed tonight on the RTE news at 6
What Hardy, tram, midlouth, behind the wire & co say.
Oh and whoever was talking about "real gaels" using the democratic means already there - they already are, is it 4 county boards that already have motions in against the grants?
This meeting is the biggest load of bollocks. It'll achieve nothing. It'll change nothing.
Midlouth I know your intentions are honourable. However, it's a non-runner. This has been debated endlessly in GPA/GAA/Govn circles for the guts of 5 years. What has happened in the last month is irreversible. When once I thought it was a bad idea I have slowly accepted the decision on the basis of the culture and society we live in. You simply don't provide first class entertainment for no financial 'gain'. That's the bare truth.
I stepped out of this argument a while ago. The reason was that when I asked Hardy if it was possible he'd feel differently about the grant if he'd been a player. His reply was -
You say if we were inter-county players we might feel differently. I'm certain you're right and I wouldn't claim to be selfless enough to turn down money for playing if it was offered to me. But that wouldn't make me right.
I found that mind-boggling. His premise is that only those who don't play football at that level are capable of contributing to the debate, that it's the supporters/lesser-lights who can make a valued judgement. That's plain crazy and demeans inter-county players to a sub-species of greedy dimwits with no honorable interest in the future of our games. And we all pay 20-40 quid to watch these imbeciles?
If county boards distribute the grants in a manner acceptable to most (and they will) we are simply moving with the times.
O'Neill, thank you for interpreting what I said to suit your own argument. For the record, I'd like to inform the rest of the board that your interpretation is rubbish.
Carry on.
I for one think its a great idea that this meeting is going ahead- it will provide a counter to the current monopoly that the GPA have in responding to all issues concerning the GAA. I'm sure there are a few people (like myself) who see both the good and the bad points of this grant scheme. Right now I'm not buying the hype. Whilst I buy the argument that you lose family time by playing, I'm not a big believer in the notion from the GPA report about people losing money because they are a county player. Whether they like it or not, I know many inter county players who have the job they have because of their profile, or whose employers treat them very well knowing the attention (and additional business) that comes from employing a county player.
The idea of tiering the payment is IMHO nonsense, as soon as you start differentiating between counties you start having problems. I think that the GPA are being very short sighted in this, surely a flat package for all county footballers and hurlers with a standardised mileage rate and benefits would be the way forward. The other aspect needs to be a players injury/ welfare fund. Issues like retired players requiring surgery/ treatment or even dealing with issues like those faced by Oisin McConville should be those that the GPA should address. This short term 20 euro a week is a terrible plan and I'm disappointed that some of the smarter punters involved with the GPA aren't addressing that issue rather than some of the BS "deals" with insurance companies, carphone warehouse etc (but the club energise was well worked)
I believe that the idea behind the initial set up of the GPA was well intentioned, and the forming of the association has had positive benefits for player welfare.
However for our current county players:
you represent your county, your ability and hard work have earned you that right. You stand on the shoulders of giants, legends that we grew up trying to emulate, aspiring to be. You have the support of the county, thousands go to see you play, scream your name and will you on.
But its a fragile system, threatening to strike has many supporters questioning and even withdrawing their support. Be careful -people are fickle, I'm not sure how far you can go to create a divide between yourselves and those who support you and still retain the quintessential nature of GAA support. Remember we love you because you're one of us, make yourselves fundamentally different by being paid and you're no longer one of us...
O Neill your arguement is incredibly naiive.
Explain 2 things:
1. My 'argument'
2. The naivety of it.
QuoteI'm not a big believer in the notion from the GPA report about people losing money because they are a county player.
To be honest, in terms of profile, and subsequently employability, I'd say that over a lifetime being an intercounty footballer is profitable for most.
Quote from: Hardy on December 04, 2007, 07:44:46 PM
O'Neill, thank you for interpreting what I said to suit your own argument.
So Hardy, say for example every Meath senior county player is a member of GPA. They all support this initiative. You maybe even know a couple of them perhaps. By supporting this, and by your rationale they are ALL:
1. Selfish/The greedy minority of opportunists
2. Selling out on the whole ideology of our games.
Finally Hardy, I've noticed you have called anyone who perhaps may voice some opinion slightly different to yours one of 'childish/ludicrous' (clubmember), incapable/stupid (Max) and rubbish (mine). Not your style.
Who is the John O Neill that is one of the organisers of the meeting tomorrow night?
A Donaghmore man. Very close to who is running the event. Currently up to his neck in his own club and involved in all types of strategic planning and fundraising. A very clever man who knows what he is at and could make mincemeat out of Dessie Farrell. A real Gael. great to see him involved in this.
QuoteIt could mean not going to watch your county play any more, it could mean not contributing to funds like Club Tyrone, withdrawing sponsorships.
I confidently predict none of this will happen. It reminds me of the Croke Park argument. I know fellows who lamented over a pint of Guinness the night the GAA decided to 'open the gates' to foreign games. 'Never again' etc. One rugby/soccer game later and it has been completely forgotten about by those same men. They're watching the ROI or O'Driscoll in Croker with as much passion as ever before whilst attending our own games with the same gusto.
I'm a member of Club Tyrone. I effectively have contributed to the 'paying' of county squads/players since 2002 be it gear, medical or whatever. This makes absolutely no difference to me.
I say to those who forecast a widening of the gap between player and supporter or the fact that they're 'no longer one of us' - come on here in one year's time and say the same thing.
Quote from: ONeill on December 04, 2007, 09:26:35 PM
QuoteIt could mean not going to watch your county play any more, it could mean not contributing to funds like Club Tyrone, withdrawing sponsorships.
I confidently predict none of this will happen. It reminds me of the Croke Park argument. I know fellows who lamented over a pint of Guinness the night the GAA decided to 'open the gates' to foreign games. 'Never again' etc. One rugby/soccer game later and it has been completely forgotten about by those same men. They're watching the ROI or O'Driscoll in Croker with as much passion as ever before whilst attending our own games with the same gusto.
I'm a member of Club Tyrone. I effectively have contributed to the 'paying' of county squads/players since 2002 be it gear, medical or whatever. This makes absolutely no difference to me.
I say to those who forecast a widening of the gap between player and supporter or the fact that they're 'no longer one of us' - come on here in one year's time and say the same thing.
You're probably right ONeill, however I'm worried by this meeting and the motions being passed at various conventions, I think that they will force a vote at congress, and I think the grants proposal wouldn't have a hope in hell of going through, that then leaves us on a massive collission course with the GPA just as the championship is about to kick off. Call me Neville, but I like a bit of appeasement if at all possible!
Quote from: Hardy on December 04, 2007, 05:05:05 PM
Oh Sweet Jesus I give up. Maximus, I don't want to go in with the elbow and play the man, but where do you get off calling people stupid and a joke because they disagree with you. Especially when you yourself seem incapable of understanding the difference between a job and a sport and seem to be proposing some sort of happy fairyland where the resources of the GAA get administered by magic and a weird parallel universe in which the fact that people get paid for doing their jobs somehow validates the claims of others to be paid for their pastimes.
And now we hear that the fact that GAA players are to be paid for ...err ... playing GAA somehow, in your crazy world, doesn't amount to pay for play. Not only that, but the threat to strike if they didn't get it wasn't a strike threat at all, because (unknown to the rest of us but clear only to you) they didn't really mean it!!
And you're calling us stupid!
hardy I'll tell ye why i say people are stupid..Ok, I agree with that was out of order, no need for that. But people seem incapable of understanding what stands in front of them. i deal in facts...not what I think it is to suit my fears about where we think the GAA will go. The fact is that the government will pay this grant...nowhere has it been mooted that the GAA will pay it. It will not come GAA funds....nor will it ever in the foreseeable future. Why?,,,because it would never get past any vote anywhere within any GAA meeting. That is how it stands. The grant from and paid by the GOVERNMENT is all about putting our players on an even keel with the remainder of the sports that the government pay grants too. Perhaps you do not want the GAA county player to be aforded this respect for its contribution to Irish society. These are the undeniable fcats. People here who are ( and I think its more anti GPA more than GOVERNMENT grants) are doing what many a county board did for years thus creating the monster called the GPA, not giving county players respect., seen them as ponds that should squel with delight to put the jersey on( nows that some tripe, they all put it on for themselves) But you don't see it that way. You think they are fantasticlly looked after, the same metality taht was held by many a county officer 10/20/30 years and you see this further degeneration of the status Quo. All I'm saying is to deals with facts and to trust the trustees of our association to know the difference bewteen what is a grant and what is pay, which is the main reason for many of the posts here, they do not know what paid really means.
QuoteYou're probably right ONeill, however I'm worried by this meeting and the motions being passed at various conventions, I think that they will force a vote at congress, and I think the grants proposal wouldn't have a hope in hell of going through, that then leaves us on a massive collission course with the GPA just as the championship is about to kick off. Call me Neville, but I like a bit of appeasement if at all possible!
Sorry bogball but that's pathetic. Dig your head in the sand there, O'Neill will keep you in company. I think it would be fantastic if a vote was forced in congress and the Grants were opposed - not just because I'm against them but also because it would would be a massive victory for democracy in the organisation.
Max
Quotehardy I'll tell ye why i say people are stupid...i deal in facts...not what I think it is to suit my fears about where we think the GAA will go. The fact is that the government will pay this grant...nowhere has it been mooted that the GAA will pay it. It will not come GAA funds....nor will it ever in the foreseeable future. Why?,,,because it would never get past any vote anywhere within any GAA meeting. That is how it stands. The grant from and paid by the GOVERNMENT is all about putting our players on an even keel with the remainder of the sports that the government pay grants too. Perhaps you do not want the GAA county player to be aforded this respect for its contribution to Irish society. These are the undeniable fcats. People here who are ( and I think its more anti GPA more than GOVERNMENT grants) are doing what many a county board did for years thus creating the monster called the GPA, not giving county players respect., seen them as ponds that should squel with delight to put the jersey on( nows that some tripe, they all put it on for themselves) But you don't see it that way. You think they are fantasticlly looked after, the same metality taht was held by many a county officer 10/20/30 years and you see this further degeneration of the status Quo. All I'm saying is to deals with facts and to trust the trustees of our association to know the difference bewteen what is a grant and what is pay, which is the main reason for many of the posts here, they do not know what paid really means.
Everyone here knows the Grants are being paid for by the government so there's no need to point it out again and again.
The Intercounty players alone do not contribute to Irish society - the GAA, as a whole, does. If you want to go down the road of saying IC players contribute to society and therefore deserve the cash would you mind telling me how Mayo Hurlers etc contribute to Irish society or how the girls do?
IC players have plenty of respect and are well looked after, in a majority of counties, and no one here I'm sure would object to them being very well looked after. So that really has nothing to do with it.
QuoteNow compare the burden on an intercounty player with a club runner or rower or cyclist. Mile after mile after mind numbing mile every week all on their tod. Paying their own travel expenses, medical support, equipment costs etc.
Yes, you often get these rowers/runners/cyclists having to perform in front of anything between 10'000-80'000 punters scrutinising/roaring at/depending upon their every move, more so than ever before.
I tell you what - email RTE. Tell them that Lyster/Brolly/O'Rourke have to stop analysing players like as if they were professionals in front of millions of viewers. Tell them that what O'Rourke said about Dooher in 2003 and what Brolly said about a Dublin defender in 2005 was completely out of order. You cannot assassinate an amateur's character in front of millions. Call on them to treat our players like amateurs as they do it for nothing. Call on the ever-increasing column inches in newspapers and online to cease as well. Whilst your at it - call on all county boards and managers to cease preparing footballers and hurlers like as if they were professionals. Call on supporters to stop expecting professional standards from our players. Standards have changed you know since 1976.
When you do all that, you're correct. The govn should not give county boards grants.
Quote from: ONeill on December 04, 2007, 09:55:04 PM
QuoteNow compare the burden on an intercounty player with a club runner or rower or cyclist. Mile after mile after mind numbing mile every week all on their tod. Paying their own travel expenses, medical support, equipment costs etc.
Yes, you often get these rowers/runners/cyclists having to perform in front of anything between 10'000-80'000 punters scrutinising/roaring at/depending upon their every move, more so than ever before.
I tell you what - email RTE. Tell them that Lyster/Brolly/O'Rourke have to stop analysing players like as if they were professionals in front of millions of viewers. Tell them that what O'Rourke said about Dooher in 2003 and what Brolly said about a Dublin defender in 2005 was completely out of order. You cannot assassinate an amateur's character in front of millions. Call on them to treat our players like amateurs as they do it for nothing. Call on the ever-increasing column inches in newspapers and online to cease as well. Whilst your at it - call on all county boards and managers to cease preparing footballers and hurlers like as if they were professionals. Call on supporters to stop expecting professional standards from our players. Standards have changed you know since 1976.
When you do all that, you're correct. The govn should not give county boards grants.
I'll ask you 3 direct questions so, because I'm trying to get where you're coming from.
1. Do players deserve payment because of the effort they put in?
2. Do players deserve payment because of the revenue they generate?
3. Do players deserve payment because of the level of public scrutiny they face?
It can be yes to all 3 if you so choose.
Quote from: Jinxy on December 04, 2007, 10:02:25 PM
I'll ask you 3 direct questions so, because I'm trying to get where you're coming from.
1. Do players deserve payment because of the effort they put in?
2. Do players deserve payment because of the revenue they generate?
3. Do players deserve payment because of the level of public scrutiny they face?
It can be yes to all 3 if you so choose.
I believe county boards should be in receipt of funds to be distributed in a structured and uniformed way for reasons 1 and 3. How they're distributed should be the crux of the debate.
For no.2 -No - it's the GAA who sets the price of tickets and the manufacturers/shops who decide on the cost of replicas.
Max, I'll say it again, I would be completely shocked if the govt were to continue funding this on an ongoing basis - at best they might cut gaa capital grants by an amount equal to the amount paid out in this scheme. What happens in 3 years time, when players say that inflationary increases are needed etc - one way or the other, the gaa will end up paying, be that directly or via clubs missing out on grant aid.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 04, 2007, 09:48:22 PM
QuoteYou're probably right ONeill, however I'm worried by this meeting and the motions being passed at various conventions, I think that they will force a vote at congress, and I think the grants proposal wouldn't have a hope in hell of going through, that then leaves us on a massive collission course with the GPA just as the championship is about to kick off. Call me Neville, but I like a bit of appeasement if at all possible!
Sorry bogball but that's pathetic. Dig your head in the sand there, O'Neill will keep you in company. I think it would be fantastic if a vote was forced in congress and the Grants were opposed - not just because I'm against them but also because it would would be a massive victory for democracy in the organisation.
i know pints, just I'd rather get this whole thing sorted out now, when we've only got the McKenna cup etc to deal with, the pressure will be ramped up massively come April, both sides will become more embittered and we could have an irreconcileable split - rugby union and rugby league went their separate ways 100 odd years ago over this issue.
bogball
Quote
i know pints, just I'd rather get this whole thing sorted out now, when we've only got the McKenna cup etc to deal with, the pressure will be ramped up massively come April, both sides will become more embittered and we could have an irreconcileable split - rugby union and rugby league went their separate ways 100 odd years ago over this issue.
We'd a chance to sort it last week and we chickened out.
If we've to face them down on the eve of the championship than so be it - anything is better than forcing through something that membership disagrees with.
btw, I'd love to see how long Dessie and co would last on their own.
In 2003, 3 months after the All-Ireland final I met an Armagh player in a bar in Belfast. I was working for a publication. I asked him for an interview concerning that final. He said £150. Should I shop on him too?
Sure if we stuck to the original GAA rulebook, we'd have no GAA players playing other sports or even attending them. I'm sure they'll change rules again to suit purposes - that may delay the releasing of funds to county boards or even dictate how they are used.
QuoteYou know what O'Neill, we have hit common ground. You might not agree with I have to say next, but we will see. What I would have like to see the GPA do is put pressure on the GAA to reduce the commitment, reduce the number of games, reduce the number of training sessions and in general their commitment to the county. Give back to the clubs.
This idea is a complete non-runner and I can't for the life of me see how fellas reckon that this could or infact should be implemented.
Quote1. Do players deserve payment because of the effort they put in?
2. Do players deserve payment because of the revenue they generate?
3. Do players deserve payment because of the level of public scrutiny they face?
I don't think that GAA players necessarily deserve this grant visa vis all other athletes but I have no problem with them getting it. As a club player, coach and administrator I have no problem with them getting this grant while I don't. I know plenty of lads who (in terms of time and effort) deserve a grant as much as any inter county player, but I don't think IC lads should be loosing sleep over this.
Quote from: tram on December 04, 2007, 11:09:29 PM
I think almost everyone (including Pat Darcy) will agree that the spirit of Rule 11 has been broken many times, through clubs paying for coaches, players making appearances at functions etc. What I am saying is could someone use it to block the grants scheme? Pat Darcy says it would do so, but would anyone possibly have a case?
I think it is fair to point out, as some on both sides of the fence have commented, is that have we, as members of the Association created a monster and only now do some in it see it as a step too far? It isn't simply black or white, but how many shades of grey we can use or tolerate? Has this issue forced members to look more deeply about the role of the Association, and our role within it? I've said now for some time that the GAA rulebook as it stands should be completely rewritten and made legally watertight. Is the cute-hoorism and wink-nod being allowed to bend the rules without notice or much care? Are frustrations over decision making and interpretation taking members to court and lately the DRA over the association. Whatever the outcome of this matter over grants/pay-for-play/whatever you want to call it, now should be the time to see how the Association can deal with itself for the future once and for all.
If the rule is used to block grants, all dessie has to do is highlight the many, many instances of hypocrisy he has encountered.
O'Neill, the moment is somewhat lost now - two or three pages intervene, but I can't allow you to use my argument as a spurious prop for your own opposite one. I said:
You say if we were inter-county players we might feel differently. I'm certain you're right and I wouldn't claim to be selfless enough to turn down money for playing if it was offered to me. But that wouldn't make me right.
You said:
"I found that mind-boggling. His premise is that only those who don't play football at that level are capable of contributing to the debate, that it's the supporters/lesser-lights who can make a valued judgement. That's plain crazy and demeans inter-county players to a sub-species of greedy dimwits with no honorable interest in the future of our games. And we all pay 20-40 quid to watch these imbeciles?"
Of course my premise means nothing of the sort. Show me where my statement says or even implies that "ONLY" non inter-county players are capable of contributing to the debate.
What my statement means is that the input of the sole beneficiaries should not be the only one considered in a debate on an issue that affects the association so profoundly. If you want to decide whether to abolish Christmas (and don't laugh – apparently some people do) you don't weigh the opinion of the turkeys more heavily than that of the millions who believe we should keep Christmas. In fact, you might lean the other way and consider the tiny possibility that the turkeys have a vested interest.
Remember it was you, not me, who brought up the suggestion that county players would have a different view. I was only responding to that. And, as I said, if I was an inter-county player I might vote for pay for play. But that wouldn't make me right. What would make the decision right would be that it was made by the entire electorate – if we ever get a vote on the issue – and not by the only people who stand to gain from it.
So Hardy, you oppose the deal because it was the GPA who invented it, lobbied and pushed it through? You might actually agree with it in principle though?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression you're 100% anti-GPA but not totally anti-grant.
Quote from: ONeill on December 04, 2007, 11:50:14 PM
What I'm saying is, we want the highest standards from our players but we don't want their county boards to receive govn money to distribute as they see fit as it might lead to bigger demands. I understand the annoyance at the GPA. I don't particularly like them, their approach and I think Farrell is a disaster in terms of PR and leadership. However, I think their premise is correct and until we address what we expect from county players, we haven't a moral leg to stand on. We won't back down though on our expectations. That simply doesn't happen in sport. We are hypocrites.
Whatever about the few paragraphs before it, that sir is nail on head.
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NIOCLÁS Ó BRAONÁIN, UACHTARÁN C.L.G. – Sat Apr 22, 2006
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Player Welfare / GPA
Much has been written and articulated about the issue of player welfare in recent weeks and there have been considerable efforts to portray me as some kind of unaware, uncaring and maybe even incapable individual. I stated last year when I was elected Uachtarán-Tofa that I would not make statements or get involved in the core issues of the Association until I took over from Sean Ó Ceallaigh at today's Congress. I did this in the tradition of the Association and in accordance with the protocol, practise, responsibility and behaviour expected of a President-Elect. I now wish to set the record straight on a few issues.
The GPA has been in existence for about seven years. The issue of player welfare has been addressed, before and during that period to a fair degree, if at varying levels and with some inconsistencies and tardiness. One of my predecessors, Sean McCague, appointed a Players Advisory Group and a Task Force to examine and recommend on players welfare issues. The recommendations of that Task Force were introduced by Sean Ó Ceallaigh to Central Council at his first Council meeting and were adopted by the Council. The Sean McCague initiative produced a generous and enlightened package, which effectively gave players equal and even superior tangible benefits than any voluntary official. The evolving scenario however demanded a more holistic and comprehensive approach and this has not been addressed. It also required a system and structure which would ensure that no county was remiss, neglectful or insensitive in player welfare issues or the implementation of measures approved.
Much has been made of the grants issue and the GPA. My unwillingness to attend any meeting until I had formally assumed the position of Uachtarán appears to have become the central issue. The truth and reality is somewhat different to that portrayed. The motion from the Players Representative was put on the agenda for Central Council at it's meeting of 25th February. That motion sought Central Council's support for the GPA's grant application to the Government. It transpired at the Coiste Bainistí meeting on the morning of the Central Council meeting that the considerations of Central Council had been pre-empted and that the Uachtarán had already agreed to meet with the Minister with the GPA.
Like the members of Coiste Bainistí and Central Council, the first I knew of a meeting having been arranged with the Minister for Sport was on the day of the Central Council meeting. In an issue of potential fundamental consequences for the Association, I was not in a position, nor did I think it prudent that any other G.A.A. Official should approach the Minister until I could appraise myself fully with all the issues involved and until such time as I could be guided by our counties through Central Council. Coiste Bainistí supported this view, as indeed did Central Council. The motion in respect of Government Grants was withdrawn at Central Council and the meeting with the Minster was, insofar as I am concerned, taken off the agenda in terms of the 8th March at least. I was therefore surprised that it became an issue and that the facts and Central Council's decision were distorted and blurred by either misunderstanding or expedient agenda.
It is indeed likely that the GPA may have been under a false illusion that Central Council had previously endorsed the concept of Government Grants for Players. The records show that this never happened. Perhaps the GPA was under the impression that this was a simple issue for Central Council to rubber stamp? The reality is that this issue requires the collective decision of the Association through Central Council following consideration and debate, particularly at county level.
I was not in a position, for the reasons I have stated, to address the issues or fill any vacuum that existed in the last few weeks. However, I do not think that anybody could accuse me of being divorced from, or insensitive to player's issues. I have played and managed at all levels in both codes and I have served in a multitude of administrative positions in our Association. I intend using that experience to address player issues in a way that is meaningful and which will benefit players, not just in this generation but in future generations. To do this, player welfare initiatives must be fair and equitable and must reconcile with the policies, structures and well-being of our Association. I am confident that these aims and aspirations can be achieved.
As already stated, I know that genuine player issues have not received the priority they should have in the recent past. I know that there have been incidents which are unacceptable and that some counties have failed to meet their obligations in the implementation and application of agreed measures and guidelines. That will change, I can assure you, as player welfare matters will be a priority during my Presidency.
I want to make one matter quite clear today though, lest there be any misunderstanding or ambiguity on anyone's part. Since the GPA was launched the notion of pay-for-play has been on their agenda. Despite recent comments from some of their officials, I am of the view that this remains the ultimate aim of the GPA in some form or other. Our Association was fostered, nurtured and developed on the basis of its amateur status and the incredible work of our thousands of loyal volunteers. Its future survival and continued progress cannot be assured unless these core aspects of our charter are maintained. Pay-for-play of any kind will not be entertained or even discussed by me during the next three years, and I know that the vast majority of our stakeholders agree with this view.
Despite the significant spend on today's inter-county players (€24M in 2005, including Player's Injury Scheme payments), we must and will address player welfare issues in a more progressive manner in the future. The following are just some of the initiatives I wish to announce today:
Shortly after this Congress we will set about recruiting a Player Welfare Manager based in Croke Park. Some of his key areas of responsibility will be:
Auditing of County Boards to ensure compliance with the Player Welfare procedures approved by Árd Comhairle
Be a direct contact for any player whose injury claim payment is being unduly delayed
Meet with any player (when requested) who has suffered a particularly serious injury to ensure an appropriate care and rehabilitation programme has been put in place
Delivery of education programmes on all aspects of player medical welfare (including drugs testing and associated issues) in association with an expanded G.A.A. Medical Committee
The incoming Insurance Work Group will be asked to review the current Player's Injury Scheme to see how benefits might be improved
We have set aside €1M (initially) in our 2006 budget to cater for what is termed "hardship cases". Former players as well as current players (club or county) may apply via their County Board for access to this fund and a Medical/G.A.A. panel will be established to initially define the criteria for accessing the fund and thereafter to adjudicate on the merits of each application
An expanded Medical Committee will work closely with the G.A.A. to offer advice on the medical welfare of our players. Some of those areas will be:
Design and implementation of high quality modern injury surveillance, injury prevention and rehabilitation programmes
Coordination of injury and rehabilitation research projects in sports and exercise medicine and science
Ensuring Irish Sports Council anti-doping and drug testing policies are implemented and properly supervised, including the provision of advice to Players, Team Mentors & Officials, including Medical personnel
Evaluation and implementation of evidence-based medical screening programmes
Prevention of over-training syndromes and over-use injuries, particularly relating to young players
Prevention of premature injuries and degeneration using adequate injury rehabilitation and recovery programmes
Education of GAA team doctors and allied medical personnel with regular updating of information regarding medical matters
Árd Comhairle will undertake a review of current policies relating to the provision of various resources to players
Greater use will be made of players to market aspects of our Association's affairs
I am asking Comhairle Árd Oideachais to submit proposals to Coiste Bainistí relating to the provision of bursaries to Third Level Colleges
We will offer inter-county players a training course to build their self confidence in dealing with the media and to avail of personal appearances for on-going commercial opportunities.
The above should be seen as a serious commitment by the G.A.A. to address player welfare. I expect other issues will emerge in the future and we will be responsible and generous in how we will look after all our players and the respect we will show them.
Use of Croke Park
The use of Croke Park by other sporting bodies in 2007 remains a very emotive issue for many of our members. I supported the temporary relaxation of Rule 42 last year and remain satisfied that this decision was in the best interests of our Association and our country. However, I recognise that many members were hurt and upset at the decision and subsequent comments by some people showed a scant understanding of these people's feelings on the matter and were unhelpful. Right now our contract with the other two sporting bodies is only for 2007. When we sit down to negotiate for the use of Croke Park beyond 2007 I will expect to see clear tangible evidence that the planning process relating to Lansdowne Road is making progress. The decision to set aside Rule 42 during the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road was on the understanding that planning permission would be secured at some stage in 2006 and building work would commence in 2007. That may well happen, but recent reports make me seriously concerned at possible delays in the planning process. Árd Comhairle will be kept fully briefed on the matter and I will ensure that this matter is continually monitored. I remain strongly committed to honouring the decision of last year's Congress, but if circumstances change which are not of our making, then the matter will have to be reviewed by you, if necessary.
Finance & Governance
I recognise that the growing cost of running County Boards is placing enormous difficulties on the shoulders of many voluntary Officials. Balancing the books is a constant challenge, so the need for proper budgeting and financial control is essential. I have instructed the incoming Financial Management Committee to insist that each County Unit submits an annual budget by the end of January each year and their annual accounts by the end of December each year. Financial assistance will only be paid on receipt of this information. It is no longer acceptable that County Boards spend beyond their resources, so increased vigilance can be expected from the Financial Management Committee in the years ahead.
The G.A.A. National Audit Committee will formally commence work in the coming months. It purpose will be:
To ensure the integrity of the Association's financial reports and statements
To ensure the Association's compliance with legal and regulatory financial requirements
To evaluate the independent public accountant's qualifications and independence
To ensure the establishment and oversight of an internal audit function
The work of this committee will be invaluable in establishing proper controls and procedures at all levels of our Association. Compliance with their recommendations will not be an option.
those who believe these grants will have no long term effect on the gaa are seriously deluded or niave,i can tell you now if these grants go through which looks likely you can mark the date and look back and say that was the day the gaa died as we no it.
Having read most of posts on here over the past few days / weeks with regards to the issue of grants, I honestly feel my position has changed from that of the anti government grants to Pro! My reason being, i get the impression alot of people are far to much concerned with the "what other people do or get!" situation. I know its only human nature to make comparisons between groups of people and i've read all sorts of comparisons on here from comparing the intercounty players to rowers, women playing football, people who cut the grass, club players, supporters even, but I would look at the issue on ITS OWN MERITS!
Does anyone here actually begrudge the lads who devote a fair majority of their time to the county team that supplies us with so much enjoyment, passion, debate and controversy. Do they deserve a little bit more for the abuse they get when they play poorly or the stick they take from opposition fans! Do they deserve a bit more for attracting 80,000 to croke park and selling hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of tickets? I for one hold the players from my own county in particularly high esteem and do not begrudge them a grant PAID FOR BY THE GOVERNMENT. OK you say, they are amateur and can choose to walk away and not play - Consider if Sean Cavanagh, Gooch, Stevie McDonnell or Matty Forde decided that they just couldnt be bothered playing intercounty football anymore - i'm sure they would get a really warm welcome as they walked the streets of their counties in the lead up to championship time! Look at the reaction to the players when the strike was announced - what gives anyone the right to criticise an amateur player for withdrawing his services - Instead of calling it a strike, would it have been ok if they just said they couldnt be bothered playing anymore? Its not as easy as it looks to walk away, so i would suggest that they dont have the choice - especially the top players.
The argument that there are hundreds of people who are prepared to pull on the jersey to represent their county is a weak one too. People may be prepared to do so, but are they prepared to put in the full time effort required - i know personally of numerous players who are county standard but didnt have the dedication required! Its a special breed that makes a top class county player! Why not reward this?
People complain about those who will get the grant and don't deserve it - the mayo hurlers consistently mentioned! I think people who are fighting to keep a sport alive in an area where it is struggling are probably just as much if not more derserving for a grant as someone who is a star in a county where football is king! I can't imagine there are hundreds of replacements lining up to replace Tyrone or mayo hurlers!!! Are people happy to the see the hurling teams of these counties disband? Are these people not equally contributing to Irish society? Or does anybody really care as long as we have something to criticise, rise up against and make doomsday predictions against!
i dont think there is any need for a ONE BELIEF association or anything like that, what i do think there is a need for is a return to traditional gaa values and observance of the written rules of the association:
yes the association has to move with the times, that must be embraced. but ireland does not have the population to sustain professional sport. we are surrounded by evidence of that. the gaa has thrived and will continue to thrive because it is amateur - all members are equal.
1) players play for the love of the game, nothing else. if playing starts to become a hinderence then dont play. amateur ethos should be emphasised.
players may be at a financial detriment due to playing gaelic games ie they could be working while they are training. but there are alot of people at at a detriment financially who are not players and get nowhere near the benefits that an intercounty player gets. (every club has at least one member like this)
2) managers should not be paid. it must be accepted by the gaa hierarchy that there is a problem in this respect and that it needs to be rectified.
3) if inter county players feel that the gaa is taking in too much money from the games they play in that may well be a fair point. but the answer here is to lower prices for the ordinary member or to redirect more and more money into local clubs. paying the players should be the last thing on their minds.
Quote from: NAG on December 04, 2007, 04:06:49 PM
Call it a grant or bursary it is infact pay for play.
You are stupid...it is not play for play. It is only pay when the directors you play for pay you that it will become pay. When have you ever gotten paid by some other organisation that you don't work for, that is why it is not play and why Croke park is not paying a grant to the players...its THE GOVERNMENT..... why is it the posters keep changing the facts
MAXIMUS
sorry for the late reply but I dont get to check here everyday.
But I have to say that it is you who are being stupid and niave, if you dont play intercounty football or hurling you dont get the money therefore you dont get paid. This is the thin end of the wedge, how long is it before someone of our stars says thats not enough for me I need more to cover my costs?
Then as this progresses logically with money involved for playing intercounty football or hurling, what happens when these players are needed for an important club match with a county match coming up, do the county protect their financial investment (as the goverment wont fund this forever) and ban the player from playing?
The GPA has opened a can of worms and they havent a clue what to do. The pound signs were flashing infront of the leaderships eyes and they forgot where they have come from.
Look you can call me stupid or whatever you like but I have my eyes open to this situation and can see what is down the road for us all, dont try to tell me any different or negate my arguement with tired over hashed rhetoric spued from the mouth of Dessie.
THIS IS PAY FOR PLAY - 20 EURO A WEEK AND THEY HAVE SOLD THEIR SOULS
Quote from: BennyHarp on December 05, 2007, 10:53:45 AM
Does anyone here actually begrudge the lads who devote a fair majority of their time to the county team that supplies us with so much enjoyment, passion, debate and controversy. Do they deserve a little bit more for the abuse they get when they play poorly or the stick they take from opposition fans! Do they deserve a bit more for attracting 80,000 to croke park and selling hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of tickets? I for one hold the players from my own county in particularly high esteem and do not begrudge them a grant PAID FOR BY THE GOVERNMENT. OK you say, they are amateur and can choose to walk away and not play - Consider if Sean Cavanagh, Gooch, Stevie McDonnell or Matty Forde decided that they just couldnt be bothered playing intercounty football anymore - i'm sure they would get a really warm welcome as they walked the streets of their counties in the lead up to championship time! Look at the reaction to the players when the strike was announced - what gives anyone the right to criticise an amateur player for withdrawing his services - Instead of calling it a strike, would it have been ok if they just said they couldnt be bothered playing anymore? Its not as easy as it looks to walk away, so i would suggest that they dont have the choice - especially the top players.
if any amateur player chose to walk away for work or family reasons no matter what their profile in the game may be no one will have any problem with that. it has happened in tyrone with shane sweeney and mickey coleman, it happened in down with callum king. do you really think that 2000euro is going to keep all these people playing. no. they play because they love and enjoy it. and if it becomes too much they will still walk away whether they are receiving 2000 euro or not.
Players are scrutinised like professionals. that is true. it is also WRONG! the gaa must see that this problem is rectified. the answer is not to make the players professionals, the answer is to end the sort of scrutiny we see from brolly etc.
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on December 05, 2007, 10:52:46 AM
those who believe these grants will have no long term effect on the gaa are seriously deluded or niave,i can tell you now if these grants go through which looks likely you can mark the date and look back and say that was the day the gaa died as we no it.
I'll bet a grand that when rule 21 went there was many a memeber said the same or rule 42, it called scare mongering. The GAA will never allow professionalism into its ranks, well not in the next 20 years at least. No one knows the future.
Nag I would love you to come and work for me...because your idea of being paid is very different from mine. I pay my employees, not the government, infact the government doing nothing for me but take my hard earned cash. When ever the GAA start to pay these lads, then I'll take up the fight.
DMarsden - A few points - Firstly congrats on presenting some well reasoned arguments -
Now you said; "i would venture that the overwhelming majority of county players would be in favour of a shift in emphasis towards club football. everyone is a clubman first and formost are they not? i know that this is high on the gpa members'agenda."
I cant agree with you 100% there. They did make recomendations to Paric Duffy concerning the player burnout report but I have read these and simply believe that they do not go far enough. Furthermore if the GPA's membership were balloted on these recomendations then I would wager the majority would want even more of a reduction in their playing time. Also, the agreement signed last week, IMO, ensures that the inter county player now has to committ even more.
I'm not anti GPA but I am not pro them either - I just think that their management/decision makes has decided that grant aid is the biggest issue facing players and ran with it.
Max
In your infinite wisdom tell us how these grants our going to work?
Who draws up the county the panels and therefore by proxy decides who gets a grant and who doesnt?
Who tells the government ministers and officials, the players bank account details or home address to pay the cheque too?
I will let you in on a wee secret it will be GAA men in Croke Park over seeing this whole proceedure. And when the goverment decide hold on we dont want to pay this 5m a year any more where does the money come from, 'cos once you pop you cant stop'.
Be realistic man at least.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 05, 2007, 11:20:24 AM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on December 05, 2007, 10:52:46 AM
those who believe these grants will have no long term effect on the gaa are seriously deluded or niave,i can tell you now if these grants go through which looks likely you can mark the date and look back and say that was the day the gaa died as we no it.
I'll bet a grand that when rule 21 went there was many a memeber said the same or rule 42, it called scare mongering. The GAA will never allow professionalism into its ranks, well not in the next 20 years at least. No one knows the future.
Nag I would love you to come and work for me...because your idea of being paid is very different from mine. I pay my employees, not the government, infact the government doing nothing for me but take my hard earned cash. When ever the GAA start to pay these lads, then I'll take up the fight.
Max - there is a huge difference between rule 21, rule 42 and this debate - In the first two incidences yes there was people who thought that the association would be negatively effected by any tampering with these rules but the crucial thing is is that the majority of association members disagreed with them! 30 out of 32 counties, when they asked the opinion of their club members, decided to delete rule 21.
Democracy Max - it has not happenned with respect to this issue.
If it did and the majority backed the governemnt paying grants then it would be the right thing to do! If the majority do not agree however then it is not the right thing to do!
The GPA was formed initially ( or at loeast that's what we were told at the time ) to improve player welfare - we all thought that this was about training gear, mileage etc -
But now that conditions have improved they have moved on to the next step - a "grant". Now that is in the bag, what is next ????
I think we all know what's coming next !
Shane Sweeney left the tyrone panel due to work commitments and there is no dispute that is a reasonable excuse and I agree all amateur players should be allowed to choose if they want to play or not. I'm glad you mentioned Mickey Coleman, he left the panel because he wasnt getting an opportunity to play and wasnt prepared to put the considerable effort in to remain on the bench, which again is fair enough and he already has an all-ireland medal in his back pocket - adding further weight to my argumnet that inter county players are a rare breed of not only hightly skilled but totally dedicated individuals who return year after who deserve the grants coming their way!!
Quote from: believebelive on December 05, 2007, 11:33:43 AM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 05, 2007, 11:20:24 AM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on December 05, 2007, 10:52:46 AM
those who believe these grants will have no long term effect on the gaa are seriously deluded or niave,i can tell you now if these grants go through which looks likely you can mark the date and look back and say that was the day the gaa died as we no it.
I'll bet a grand that when rule 21 went there was many a memeber said the same or rule 42, it called scare mongering. The GAA will never allow professionalism into its ranks, well not in the next 20 years at least. No one knows the future.
Nag I would love you to come and work for me...because your idea of being paid is very different from mine. I pay my employees, not the government, infact the government doing nothing for me but take my hard earned cash. When ever the GAA start to pay these lads, then I'll take up the fight.
Max - there is a huge difference between rule 21, rule 42 and this debate - In the first two incidences yes there was people who thought that the association would be negatively effected by any tampering with these rules but the crucial thing is is that the majority of association members disagreed with them! 30 out of 32 counties, when they asked the opinion of their club members, decided to delete rule 21.
Democracy Max - it has not happenned with respect to this issue.
If it did and the majority backed the governemnt paying grants then it would be the right thing to do! If the majority do not agree however then it is not the right thing to do!
You have A fair point and the congress vote on the issue will put that to bed, after all they have all been elected.
Nag as I have said before I will trust the trustees that we have elected to put together a solution to satisfy the questions you ask. Is any system perfect....you only have to look at the munster football champiopnship to answer my point. Our association will not allow real pay for play to happen, I am confident in that. Nag I never read your posts against the uni grants for players or volunteering secs postion being made into full time paid professional posts. Where are you on that front
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 05, 2007, 11:47:31 AM
Quote from: believebelive on December 05, 2007, 11:33:43 AM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 05, 2007, 11:20:24 AM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on December 05, 2007, 10:52:46 AM
those who believe these grants will have no long term effect on the gaa are seriously deluded or niave,i can tell you now if these grants go through which looks likely you can mark the date and look back and say that was the day the gaa died as we no it.
I'll bet a grand that when rule 21 went there was many a memeber said the same or rule 42, it called scare mongering. The GAA will never allow professionalism into its ranks, well not in the next 20 years at least. No one knows the future.
Nag I would love you to come and work for me...because your idea of being paid is very different from mine. I pay my employees, not the government, infact the government doing nothing for me but take my hard earned cash. When ever the GAA start to pay these lads, then I'll take up the fight.
Max - there is a huge difference between rule 21, rule 42 and this debate - In the first two incidences yes there was people who thought that the association would be negatively effected by any tampering with these rules but the crucial thing is is that the majority of association members disagreed with them! 30 out of 32 counties, when they asked the opinion of their club members, decided to delete rule 21.
Democracy Max - it has not happenned with respect to this issue.
If it did and the majority backed the governemnt paying grants then it would be the right thing to do! If the majority do not agree however then it is not the right thing to do!
You have A fair point and the congress vote on the issue will put that to bed, after all they have all been elected.
Nag as I have said before I will trust the trustees that we have elected to put together a solution to satisfy the questions you ask. Is any system perfect....you only have to look at the munster football champiopnship to answer my point. Our association will not allow real pay for play to happen, I am confident in that. Nag I never read your posts against the uni grants for players or volunteering secs postion being made into full time paid professional posts. Where are you on that front
One probel with that Max is that if we simply let congress decide on everything we would still be banning people for playing soccer!
Max
Thats because I am not against any of these things, students are giving up the chance to work part time to earn some money towards their living expenses which is entirely different from someone in full time work getting money to play. The grants to students are a good idea because it allows them to play football through their college days without having to panic about money.
Secondly the paid administration posts are in my opinion becoming to frequent but there is a case to be made that because of the growth in gaelic games and the time needed to run them that these posts have become impossible to run as volunteer posts its just too much to ask a man to do as well as try and earn a living for his family.
These in no way justify the pay for play that is now being put before us, the players do it because they love it and if they dont love it they wouldnt do it, I honestly believe that this is the road to no town.
Where does everyone stand on county players going part time at work and having their salaries topped up by county boards. Or even the select few who take a year out and getting a full salary? this is a practice going on for generations.
As far as I can see the only money were are really pissed off about giving to players/students/managers and officials is the money that the government want to give, instead off the money we are actually giving. :: :o :o :o The Tom Fool award for the year goes to the grassroots
Quote from: DMarsden on December 05, 2007, 12:32:56 PM
Where does everyone stand on county players going part time at work and having their salaries topped up by county boards. Or even the select few who take a year out and getting a full salary? this is a practice going on for generations.
Can you provide examples to back this claim ? Generations ?
dmarsden you are probably right that this goes on. one of the gpa top table being a prime example of this. however this is usually due to the input of a sympathetic businessman and not the county board itself. it must be appreciated that not every county would have the financial backers to support this and i dont think it would be feasible to universally adopt this.
once again this is pointing towards elitism. i.e. are we really going to suggest that kilkenny's best footballers should be allowed to take of work fully supplemented by the gaa?
this does happen among the elite, and in my opinion it shouldnt. however if a sypathetic businessman wants to give a top player a handy number then we cant complain about it.
bottom line is though, there should be no payment from county boards. it just isnt feasible.
Quote from: DMarsden on December 05, 2007, 12:32:56 PM
Where does everyone stand on county players going part time at work and having their salaries topped up by county boards. Or even the select few who take a year out and getting a full salary? this is a practice going on for generations.
I'd seriously consider giving some sort of proof to that claim. Otherwise I'd delete it.
Incidentally, if you are against pay per play, and your above claim is true, how come you havent been giving out about it?
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 05, 2007, 12:40:20 PM
As far as I can see the only money were are really pissed off about giving to players/students/managers and officials is the money that the government want to give, instead off the money we are actually giving. :: :o :o :o The Tom Fool award for the year goes to the grassroots
max i always thought you had more sense. you make very valid points regarding payments to managers, this is true. and the grass roots are the guilty ones here. but the way forward is to stop payments to managers, not pay the players because the managers are getting paid.
***again i would hope that no one will resort to using the argument that students get grants - i have already expressed my view on this and it is clear that no one within the gaa actually has a problem with this. it is completely different to the present grants argument/ pay for play.
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 05, 2007, 12:49:49 PM
Quote from: DMarsden on December 05, 2007, 12:32:56 PM
Where does everyone stand on county players going part time at work and having their salaries topped up by county boards. Or even the select few who take a year out and getting a full salary? this is a practice going on for generations.
I'd seriously consider giving some sort of proof to that claim. Otherwise I'd delete it.
Incidentally, if you are against pay per play, and your above claim is true, how come you havent been giving out about it?
hisholiness, it happens. i am completely against it but i know it happens. il give you a clue, he doesnt smile
Dessie Farrell!
behind the wire...look I'm a simple lad, but since I started posting on this subject it has helped me focus my mind on all the issues on payments, and the hypocratically stance being taken by so many is what I have come to realise is what is really buggin me. It is stinking. Is there a senior club in Tyrone or Derry who have not paid a manager, whether indirectly or directly from the club...if there are it is a very very small few. I'll not even start to talk about the Dublin clubs ffs At the meeting tonight listen to hte main talkers and ask yourself how many of their clubs have paid managers...and if yes (in all probability it will be 9 out of 10) why are they up on the top table giving out about a grant from the government. Really what can you say...incredible, how many faces does a clock have.
Will John O'Neill be asked at the meeting if his club, Donaghmore have ever paid a manager?
Quoteagain i would hope that no one will resort to using the argument that students get grants - i have already expressed my view on this and it is clear that no one within the gaa actually has a problem with this. it is completely different to the present grants argument/ pay for play.
No it's not, and although this argument....
Quotestudents are giving up the chance to work part time to earn some money towards their living expenses which is entirely different from someone in full time work getting money to play. The grants to students are a good idea because it allows them to play football through their college days without having to panic about money.Quote...has been proven for the gibberish it is, it doesn't seem to be sinking in so I'll do it one more time. Only a handful of students get any sort of grant (elitism anyone?), the level of grant aid varies, in both amount and source, from college to college. In certain colleges it exceeds what any student could earn from part time work, in others it is so little as not to make a difference. So since all GAA playing students don't get grants and some of them get ones that aren't enough to let them give up their part-time work, how do colleges field these teams at all?
The argument some are making seems to be that if they didn't get this grant, they'd have to work and consequently wouldn't be able to play GAA. Sounds a bit like pay for play to me, but when it comes to IC players the attitude is, "well if they can't make that commitment let them f**k off, no-one is forcing them to play, thousands would give their right arm... etc. etc." To take this point to it's logical conclusion some lads are saying that because students can't earn boozing money through part time work it's ok to give them GAA grants, but because IC players are earning money themselves we shouldn't allow the govt. give them money. Did I say logical conclusion?
Quote from: Bensars on December 05, 2007, 12:41:40 PM
Quote from: DMarsden on December 05, 2007, 12:32:56 PM
Where does everyone stand on county players going part time at work and having their salaries topped up by county boards. Or even the select few who take a year out and getting a full salary? this is a practice going on for generations.
Can you provide examples to back this claim ? Generations ?
I imagine it has Bensars, from the collective training regimes back in the 40's 50's to the situation where players take time off work to prepare for the championship and so on.
Well said Max...anyone going to tonight should consider motives of those organising this meeting. Sick of the hypocrisy on here about payments. Going on all over the GAA and nobody so much as raising an eyebrow. Get real lads.
Anyway in my opinion all the topics here have been debated over and over again and same points being made.
Best of luck to all those attending tonight. I for one, won't be as I have training and I'm happy to be a member of the GAA and support decisions the association that we elect make. After all no rules are being changed here, which is why no need for debate. Rule 42 etc was a rule change which is why debate occurred. If people felt so strongly about this issue why didn't they object when it was approved by central council some months back?!?
Just a quick note on the GAAs own grants scheme
Two lads:
1 - leaves school to go to college - gets grants from GAA and accomodation paid for my college among other benefits
2 - leaves school and begins an apprenticship - has to buy all own equipment, live off a pitance and work his ass off to impress the boss - same input as player 1 but with ZERO financial backing from anyone
Summary - Two tiered elite system - but that seems to be ok with everyone on here.
Player and manager payments are also ok as long as they are not coming from county boards !!!!! What a farce !!
Way to go club member...tell it as it is :D
Bennyharp I can tell you now that the answer is no, But feel free to ask him.
Maybe your very valid concerns about paid managers etc can be addressed after we deal with the main issue which in my eyes appears to be pay for play described in vague terms and is against rule no 11 of the association. I have great sympathy for your viewpoint, re professional managers and coaches and like you, I personally am in favour that they are amiongst a number of issues to be addressed. Maybe a strong message can be sent out to stop undue practices from wherever they may arise be that pay for play, pay for management coaching or whatever. Why should the GAA in its time of strength and it being the envy of every sporting organisation on this island attempt to copy the struggling semi professional models of other organisations where volunteerism is the exception "not the rule"
I can tell you now that a number of very smart thinkers within the GAA believe that this will finish the GAA as we know it if its not prevented. They are not starting this campaign for any personal gain nor are they backwoodsmen, but they are not prpared to sit back. They are only trying to protect the most precious aspect to the GAA,at its very principle, the spirit of volunteerism. Do people care enough to listen to the message. If as many of us care as as much as we say we do the Elk will need a very big room.
Dmarsden, clubmember yous don't help your side of things at all.
Quote
Where does everyone stand on county players going part time at work and having their salaries topped up by county boards. Or even the select few who take a year out and getting a full salary? this is a practice going on for generations.
I think you should be prepared to back that up, so far I've only seen one suggested.
I don't think any of us that argue against the grants would support that either so I've no idea what point you're trying to make.
clubmember/ max no one has said that payments to players/managers are ok so long as they dont come from county boards. what usually happens is that a businessman will employ them in his business but he gives them alot of free time. as far as im concerned this is up to the businessman and nothing to do with the county board. if a businessman wants to employ a particular person for whatever reason to do very little that is his lookout.
payments to managers are wrong and should be treated as such. it is against the rules and should be eradicated.
student grants are a good idea and should be extended to those on apprenticeships - i support you there. very valid point.
the points you make are excellent and need addressed, however paying players will not make it any better, it will make the situation worse. it is not the answer.this country cannot support professional sport, this is proven. it is also against the rules of the association to be pro/semi pro. to see our association continue to flourish we need the big noises in the gaa/gpa to promote the amateur ethos not try their best to undermine it further.
Quote from: behind the wire on December 05, 2007, 12:54:05 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 05, 2007, 12:49:49 PM
Quote from: DMarsden on December 05, 2007, 12:32:56 PM
Where does everyone stand on county players going part time at work and having their salaries topped up by county boards. Or even the select few who take a year out and getting a full salary? this is a practice going on for generations.
I'd seriously consider giving some sort of proof to that claim. Otherwise I'd delete it.
Incidentally, if you are against pay per play, and your above claim is true, how come you havent been giving out about it?
hisholiness, it happens. i am completely against it but i know it happens. il give you a clue, he doesnt smile
If it happens its wrong and should be stopped, two wrongs dont make a right.
I'd be interested to see if Dmarsden agrees with this practice.
rrhf
Exactly why would we want to go down the road of rugby which has been proved to be totally unsuccessful with regards to pay for play and believe me this is the thin end of things with these grants.
As a club member I dont care who is paying the grants who is admisintering the grants what I oject to is there players recieving money for play.
NAG you said this
QuoteThats because I am not against any of these things, students are giving up the chance to work part time to earn some money towards their living expenses which is entirely different from someone in full time work getting money to play. The grants to students are a good idea because it allows them to play football through their college days without having to panic about money.
Secondly the paid administration posts are in my opinion becoming to frequent but there is a case to be made that because of the growth in gaelic games and the time needed to run them that these posts have become impossible to run as volunteer posts its just too much to ask a man to do as well as try and earn a living for his family.
and then this
QuoteAs a club member I dont care who is paying the grants who is admisintering the grants what I oject to is there players recieving money for play.
How do you square that circle?
ALL:
Please define PAY FOR PLAY in one sentence for me. - Just one sentence - what it means to you. It is thrown about here all the time along with "thin end of the wedge" and other cliches. I would just like you to explain them in very simple terms
The GPA and all of it's members voted AGAINST "PAY FOR PLAY" and any type of "PROFESSIONALISM" but that's not enough. This GRANT is not pay for play it is a GRANT to help with preparation to play a game to the highest level so that WE can enjoy it and more importantly so that they can generate the tens of millions of euros that fund this association and pay for administrators so that we can progress further as an organisation and grow as an organisation.
Also wrt managers payments/grants etc : You all seem to be opposed to them yet no meetings have been called, no organisation established to combat this !!!!!!!!!!!!! As far as I can see this is an anti -GPA political agenda that represents the view of a few. Even if you have 100 or 200 people at your meeting tonight are you honestly going to claim to represent all GRASSROOTS members? That's almost 1 MILLION members!!
Quote from: Clubmember on December 05, 2007, 02:20:26 PM
ALL:
Please define PAY FOR PLAY in one sentence for me. - Just one sentence - what it means to you. It is thrown about here all the time along with "thin end of the wedge" and other cliches. I would just like you to explain them in very simple terms
The GPA and all of it's members voted AGAINST "PAY FOR PLAY" and any type of "PROFESSIONALISM" but that's not enough. This GRANT is not pay for play it is a GRANT to help with preparation to play a game to the highest level so that WE can enjoy it and more importantly so that they can generate the tens of millions of euros that fund this association and pay for administrators so that we can progress further as an organisation and grow as an organisation.
Also wrt managers payments/grants etc : You all seem to be opposed to them yet no meetings have been called, no organisation established to combat this !!!!!!!!!!!!! As far as I can see this is an anti -GPA political agenda that represents the view of a few. Even if you have 100 or 200 people at your meeting tonight are you honestly going to claim to represent all GRASSROOTS members? That's almost 1 MILLION members!!
When did GPA members vote against pay for play? I thought it was never on their agenda so how did they get the opportunity to vote against it??
Also if this is just a grant to cover expenses why is it performance related? If it is truly to help preparation why are all players not allocated the same amount of money each week while they are in the championship.
My definition of pay for play is that it is money recieved for playing GAA over and above legitimate expenses.
And with respect to managers being paid I think this is the single biggest problem within the association at the moment and the few years that my club agreed to pay more than expenses I objected strongly at the time and also at the AGM at the end of the year.
DARBYO
Its quite simple I was just pointing out that it doesnt matter who is paying these Grants over to the players that it is still Paying them to Play which I object too.
Have stated my reasons for student grants and paid officials (in that they facilitate our games to be played).
Correct me if Im wrong but the president has come out against Managers being paid too?
This is the start of paying for play, I have stated already that soon enough these grants wont be enough for some players who think they deserve more. As well as this then the government arent going to pay this money for ever so who picks up the slack and when the GAA do its professionalism whether the GPA voted against it or not.
Quote from: full back on December 04, 2007, 02:59:56 PM
Clubmember
Quote from: Clubmember on December 04, 2007, 01:23:22 PM
Of course they do it for the love of the game - do you honestly think €2000 is going to stop them.
How can you justify this?
The players were going to strike unless they got the money ???
Unless the players got paid they werent going to play football..hence a strike
CLUBMEMBER ???
PAY FOR PLAY IN ONE SENTENCE:
simple - getting money because you play gaelic football or hurling.
that includes the grant. players get the grant because they play football or hurling. this is pay for play.
the reason no meetings have been called against paying managers is because it is all being done under ground. although everyone knows about it it is not advertised in the public domain. it is, however, equally as bad as the paying of players and needs to be eradicated. if any good has come out of this argument it is that it has stood to highlight the problem with paid managers in the association. it is wrong and hopefully there will be a huge backlash against the practice now.
it is the fact that amateur players came out and more or less demanded payment for taking part in what is simply a hobby that lead to the public outrage.
QuoteHave stated my reasons for student grants and paid officials (in that they facilitate our games to be played).
Yes you did NAG but I pointed out that your position on student grants didn't hold water, so in order for you to have a consistent position you need to justify your comments. In case you missed my post here is what I said,
Quotestudents are giving up the chance to work part time to earn some money towards their living expenses which is entirely different from someone in full time work getting money to play. The grants to students are a good idea because it allows them to play football through their college days without having to panic about money.
Quote
...has been proven for the gibberish it is, it doesn't seem to be sinking in so I'll do it one more time. Only a handful of students get any sort of grant (elitism anyone?), the level of grant aid varies, in both amount and source, from college to college. In certain colleges it exceeds what any student could earn from part time work, in others it is so little as not to make a difference. So since all GAA playing students don't get grants and some of them get ones that aren't enough to let them give up their part-time work, how do colleges field these teams at all?
The argument some are making seems to be that if they didn't get this grant, they'd have to work and consequently wouldn't be able to play GAA. Sounds a bit like pay for play to me, but when it comes to IC players the attitude is, "well if they can't make that commitment let them f**k off, no-one is forcing them to play, thousands would give their right arm... etc. etc." To take this point to it's logical conclusion some lads are saying that because students can't earn boozing money through part time work it's ok to give them GAA grants, but because IC players are earning money themselves we shouldn't allow the govt. give them money. Did I say logical conclusion?
Behind the wire if this is your definition
QuotePAY FOR PLAY IN ONE SENTENCE:
simple - getting money because you play gaelic football or hurling.
that includes the grant. players get the grant because they play football or hurling. this is pay for play.
why haven't you objected to student grants?
The GAA is riddled with so many inconsistencies' that it isn't even funny and that is (in part) why many of us don't have a problem with this grant. This isn't elitism or professionalism it is a government grant. Many of you have used athletes and rowers as examples of sportsmen who deserve a grant as much as IC GAA players. Well if they got a similar grant tomorrow do you think that the 'grassroots' of those sports would be calling a meeting to try and prevent the government giving them this money?
That's not for us though, we the self sacrificing and in many cases physic GAA grassroots will take down these Jonny big boots. My own club doesn't currently have an IC player but if we did I don't think I could look him in the face if I tried to prevent this grant going through. But according to some here me and my kind are just naive.
students get help with fees and accomodation costs, it is not money that they can do whatever they like with. it is completely different to getting money directly into the hand for playing gaelic football or hurling.
Quote from: behind the wire on December 05, 2007, 02:40:48 PM
PAY FOR PLAY IN ONE SENTENCE:
simple - getting money because you play gaelic football or hurling.
that includes the grant. players get the grant because they play football or hurling. this is pay for play.
STUDENTS GET THE GRANT FOR PLAYING HURLIGN AND FOOTBALL - PAY FOR PLAY IS ALREADY HERE THEN
the reason no meetings have been called against paying managers is because it is all being done under ground. although everyone knows about it it is not advertised in the public domain. it is, however, equally as bad as the paying of players and needs to be eradicated. if any good has come out of this argument it is that it has stood to highlight the problem with paid managers in the association. it is wrong and hopefully there will be a huge backlash against the practice now.
SO BECAUSE YOU DON'T SEE IT ITs Ok?!
it is the fact that amateur players came out and more or less demanded payment for taking part in what is simply a hobby that lead to the public outrage.
Clubmember -
U asked a number of questions and rasied a few points on the previous page. I replyed and a made a number of points of my own and asked you a few question.
Can you respond to these or do you just pick and choose who you have your debates with?
clubmember i hate to be personal but are u thick?
i have just said that payments to managers are wrong. the reason there hasnt been a kick up is because it is all done under the table. where did i say it was alright so long as we didnt see it?
thats right, i didnt. now for the last time. paying managers is wrong. paying players is wrong. the grant is paying players. the gaa is amateur. therefore players and managers should not be paid.
i hope there is a huge backlash against the blight that is payment of managers in the same way as there has been a kick up about payment of players.
is that clear enough for you?
Thanks behind the wire I'm delighted that you cleared it up. I must be thick as i find some views on here very confusing and frustrating as they are regularly hypocritical.
I understand now that you agree that all payments under or over the table are wrong and I'm looking forward to this debate being refocused back on all payments not just on the current grants payments to players or anti GPA stuff. All of this should be directed to Croke Park through clubs and county boards as all issues are. If enough people feel this way there shouldn't be any need for break -away groups. if you don't feel confident with people you have voted in to do their job....vote them out!!
Darbyo
There is absolutely no incosistency with my position, the bursary system is not infact pay for play because for some of the students, they have to make a choice to not have a job this bursary system facilitates our games at third level without which in the current economic climate it would probably not survive. This is completely different for guys in full time employment getting money into their pockets soley because they are intercounty players, there is no need to facilitate these guys as they are already covered by expenses and well looked after.
My club does have several counties players and they are of the opinion that it is a disgrace that they are being given these grants one of the fella's said he would take us out on the beer with his. They feel that they are putting in the same work as a successful club player and why should they be singled out.
Quotestudents get help with fees and accomodation costs, it is not money that they can do whatever they like with. it is completely different to getting money directly into the hand for playing gaelic football or hurling.
100% wrong, how do I know this? because I have recieved one myself from a provincial council in the form of a cheque. There were no strings attached to how I spent this money, I was just given it for playing GAA in a University. Cadbury's also give money to U21 INTER COUNTY players in all the Universities, should that be stopped? It is elitist (only IC players), ageist (only U21's), sexist(only men) and anti hurling (only footballers can apply).
Clubmember -
Thanx for ignoring me again. Im feeling a bit jilted at this stage :'(
maybe your grant was different to mine. could well be the case.
Darbyo
I accept that your grant was paid like that and probably then handed over to the bar man in the hatfield.
But the principle of giving grants to students is completely different from that of giving grants to senior intercounty players.
It was supposed to be used or intended for fee's and living expenses although it was maybe put to better use!
The principle of the thing (that is student bursarys) is not wrong and although I would say this should be tightened up on.
il second that NAG. it was probably renshaws though. hatfield is only a recent thing.
Quote from: darbyo on December 05, 2007, 03:38:37 PM
Quotestudents get help with fees and accomodation costs, it is not money that they can do whatever they like with. it is completely different to getting money directly into the hand for playing gaelic football or hurling.
100% wrong, how do I know this? because I have recieved one myself from a provincial council in the form of a cheque. There were no strings attached to how I spent this money, I was just given it for playing GAA in a University. Cadbury's also give money to U21 INTER COUNTY players in all the Universities, should that be stopped? It is elitist (only IC players), ageist (only U21's), sexist(only men) and anti hurling (only footballers can apply).
How much do Cadbury's give Darby?
QuoteThere is absolutely no incosistency with my position, the bursary system is not infact pay for play because for some of the students, they have to make a choice to not have a job this bursary system facilitates our games at third level without which in the current economic climate it would probably not survive. This is completely different for guys in full time employment getting money into their pockets soley because they are intercounty players, there is no need to facilitate these guys as they are already covered by expenses and well looked after.
Few players that I know of (and I'm heavily involved in College football) couldn't work because of GAA commitments. And if this bursary system is to alleviate financial burdens then surely they should go the GAA players based on their financial standing not on their playing ability. In fact how did Universities field teams when there were few if any student bursaries? These bursaries have only become the norm in the last 10 years but colleges have been fielding teams for a lot longer
It's €1000 Bogball but it may vary from Uni to Uni.
For me I was the fence - I know a few county players and can understand why the few quid would be nice to have. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of pay for play - and in my opinion that's what it is.
The thing that's annoyed me is the GPA and the situation they but everyone in, ie. the strike. In answer to the question of what is pay for play I'll pose another question...
What was the strike? Seems to me it was the opposite of pay for play - ie. No pay, No play.
Quote from: believebelive on December 05, 2007, 03:39:19 PM
Clubmember -
Thanx for ignoring me again. Im feeling a bit jilted at this stage :'(
I feel the same way believe :'(
I asked Clubmember a question but as with certain people they ignore the question & ensure on getting a different point across ::)
Quote from: darbyo on December 05, 2007, 04:02:57 PM
QuoteThere is absolutely no incosistency with my position, the bursary system is not infact pay for play because for some of the students, they have to make a choice to not have a job this bursary system facilitates our games at third level without which in the current economic climate it would probably not survive. This is completely different for guys in full time employment getting money into their pockets soley because they are intercounty players, there is no need to facilitate these guys as they are already covered by expenses and well looked after.
Few players that I know of (and I'm heavily involved in College football) couldn't work because of GAA commitments. And if this bursary system is to alleviate financial burdens then surely they should go the GAA players based on their financial standing not on their playing ability. In fact how did Universities field teams when there were few if any student bursaries? These bursaries have only become the norm in the last 10 years but colleges have been fielding teams for a lot longer
i think you'll find that it wasnt much more than 10 years ago that university fees for all kicked in. that maybe had something to do with it. student life leaves you in an awful debt now. i couldnt have survived without my part time job. the gaa recognises this and are only trying to help its student members out in this way.
this is not the same as a grant for an ordinary player because the ordinary player will not be in debt as a result of playing gaelic games. (and yes i accept the apprenticeship argument)
Quote from: darbyo on December 05, 2007, 04:04:11 PM
It's €1000 Bogball but it may vary from Uni to Uni.
I always miss out on these bloody things :'( How do they decide who gets it? Do students have to start a championship match in order to qualify? I don't mean to take this off topic, but I would have thought the whole process could get very messy, and potentially disruptive to panels, which is the biggest problem I have with grants (bar the involvement of Dessie et al).
Believebelieve
When did GPA members vote against pay for play? I thought it was never on their agenda so how did they get the opportunity to vote against it??
It was posted here before ....as far as I know at an agm and reason they voted on it was to clarify it not what they about.
Also if this is just a grant to cover expenses why is it performance related? If it is truly to help preparation why are all players not allocated the same amount of money each week while they are in the championship longer youre in the championship for, the more expenses you incur I presume? Most sports council grants are performance related i.e. if boxer wins medal they get extra etc.
My definition of pay for play is that it is money recieved for playing GAA over and above legitimate expenses.
Again a practice going on throughout the GAA as reffered to in your own point below.
And with respect to managers being paid I think this is the single biggest problem within the association at the moment and the few years that my club agreed to pay more than expenses I objected strongly at the time and also at the AGM at the end of the year.
In a democracy sometimes decisions are reached that not everyone agrees with – that's a fact of life. Anyone who doesn't agree can only raise the issue again and again or leave the organization if they don't agree with their core principles or if they feel there's nothing they can do to change them.
Post it again full back.
Not sitting at computer all day to read every single comment
Lads I'll see there tonight. I will be the one wearing the Bellaghy top. ;)
Quote from: full back on December 04, 2007, 02:59:56 PM
Clubmember
Quote from: Clubmember on December 04, 2007, 01:23:22 PM
Of course they do it for the love of the game - do you honestly think €2000 is going to stop them.
How can you justify this?
The players were going to strike unless they got the money ???
Quotei think you'll find that it wasnt much more than 10 years ago that university fees for all kicked in. that maybe had something to do with it. student life leaves you in an awful debt now. i couldnt have survived without my part time job. the gaa recognises this and are only trying to help its student members out in this way.
On the contary, you had to pay much more for a college place prior to 1993 (I think) than now. Now they are free (well €1000 approx. per year) in the 80's and early 90's it was double that at least.
As for the Cadbury's bursary Bogball, that is given to 2 U21 IC players picked by a committee. So if you don't fulfill the criteria that I set out before you can't apply. In fairness it hasn't caused any problems that I know of.
They were willing to go on strike over the principal not the amount involved. Everybody saying this is professionaism and pay for play etc. I hardly think that aprox £20 a week is what they were striking over do you honestly think it would be worth the grief?! It's a pity people didn't see that it's not all about the money but the principle of recognising players for what they are and what they bring to the association rather than telling them to shut up and sit in the corner and be happy with what all the "benefits" that they "all" enjoy
If thats whats happening should club players, mentors, PRO's, Club chairmen etc etc "shut up and sit in the corner and be happy with what all the "benefits" that they "all" enjoy" ?
Or should they look for grants too? Given how much they give to the association, and lets not say they dont bring 80,000 people to Croke park. Without them there would be no intercounty players.
Are you for real clubmember?
You said 'as far as I know the GPA voted aganst pay for play at an AGM' - you see I deal with specifics - if you can't back up something you present as a fact with evidence then please do not say it - it is the biggest single fault of posters on this board.
Your point about being in the championship for longer is the one aspect where the GPA have managed to hoodwink everyone - now listen carefully - The figures which were released in April meant that the further you got the more you could claim on a per week basis - so if you got to an all ireland final u cud claim 94 euro per week from feb to sept but if you got knocked out in the second round qualifier you only cud claim 73 euro per week from feb to middle of july - so while both men were still in the championship the all ireland finalists could claim 20 euro more per week. OK. The system, if it is only to cover expenses incured, implies that because you are an all ireland winner you will have more expenses in feb than if you are a second round loser. WTF???
Now b4 anyone jumps down my throat I know there has been no figures released for this latest document but I am just pointing out that despite the spin put on this by the GPA the original figures always favoured those who got further by giving them more money on a per week basis.
And what are u on about with the third point - are u saying i shud possibly leave the association cos i do not agree with its core princiapals!!!!! I do agree with the core principals which is why i keep rasing the issue!!!!!
Sorry just seen you say £20 per week for the players!!!! where does that figure come from - thin air i presume!!!
Quote from: Clubmember on December 05, 2007, 04:35:44 PM
They were willing to go on strike over the principal not the amount involved. Everybody saying this is professionaism and pay for play etc. I hardly think that aprox £20 a week is what they were striking over do you honestly think it would be worth the grief?! It's a pity people didn't see that it's not all about the money but the principle of recognising players for what they are and what they bring to the association rather than telling them to shut up and sit in the corner and be happy with what all the "benefits" that they "all" enjoy
What are you on about Clubmember?
Are you saying the players only want recognition of waht they contribute to Irish society?
You say "I hardly think that aprox £20 a week is what they were striking over"
Why the threat of a strike?
Is the only way to give people recognition by giving them money?
Why is that a good post? The GPA don't represent those people, they got money out of the government for their members, should they work on behalf of runners, rowers etc. as well? Dose the fact that I have never been at a handball match or played or coached the game make me less of a GAA man?
Quote from: full back on December 05, 2007, 05:07:18 PM
Quote from: Clubmember on December 05, 2007, 04:35:44 PM
They were willing to go on strike over the principal not the amount involved. Everybody saying this is professionaism and pay for play etc. I hardly think that aprox £20 a week is what they were striking over do you honestly think it would be worth the grief?! It's a pity people didn't see that it's not all about the money but the principle of recognising players for what they are and what they bring to the association rather than telling them to shut up and sit in the corner and be happy with what all the "benefits" that they "all" enjoy
What are you on about Clubmember?
Are you saying the players only want recognition of waht they contribute to Irish society?
You say "I hardly think that aprox £20 a week is what they were striking over"
Why the threat of a strike?
Is the only way to give people recognition by giving them money?
Full back, what is worse is the figure he uses of £20 per week? Where the hell is he getting that from?? You see its that sort of misleading statement used to back up an argument that annoys me - £20 a week FFS
Quote£20 a week FFS
Why is this misleading?
20 quid at todays rates is 27.6502 euro a week (1404 euro a year), which is the more than the minimum amount of the grant scheme.
so technically its less than 20 quid a week...
Quote from: heganboy on December 05, 2007, 06:22:05 PM
Quote£20 a week FFS
Why is this misleading?
20 quid at todays rates is 27.6502 euro a week (1404 euro a year), which is the more than the minimum amount of the grant scheme.
so technically its less than 20 quid a week...
Ah somebody has fallen for the old trap
Its misleading for a number of reasons. The original proposal in april was based on participation between feb and the end of the champ - so it was a max of 7 and half months months u got to the all ireland final( of course u got 2800 if you got that far - that works out at 373 per month or 93 euro per week - now if u were unlucky enough to get knocked out n the second round of the qualifiers then you got 1650 for you five and a half months work - that is 75 euro per week.
Now. To be absoutley clear about this there has been no figures released relating to the latest figures but it says quite clearly that the grants are only determined from the end of the champ which reduces this time frame radically.
The GPA neevr said this was for a year long commitment toplaying niter county football.
If the GPA said this was for the whole year then fine - but wait, then they would have to argue in favour of a 12 month season - this agreement means that some poor bollox could train from november to april - then get dropped and get sweet FA. Fair??
Train AND play competitively, but if he is dropped before the championship, he aint an intercounty player ;)
Ah, true, but it is a year long commitment to play for the county. Otherwise you could look at it as 600 euro an hour for the 2 championship games that those who are out first will play...
Its not an old trap- its number manipulation for the purposes of supplementing an argument. You could say 600 euros an hour or 20 quid a week, technically you'd both be right.
There are lies, damn lies and statistics
Re a year long commitment, if you mean training etc, then that applies to club players too.
Re playing we have two options..
1) train all year long, play all O'Byrne (or your own local one) cup, and national league games, dropped for Championship, earn NOTHING.
2) train all year long, sit out O'Byrne (or your own local one) cup, and national league games, picked for championship, GET THE GRANT.
Option one, will most likely involve playing in more intercounty competitive games than option 2. You have a problem.
Fairplay to the Ulster lads for organising this. I have an open mind on the issue. Can someone post what happened.
well what happened?
Quotewell what happened?
Dessie Farrel was ceremoniously hung on the bridge at Toome!
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 05, 2007, 09:26:02 PM
well what happened?
Big row, Max was a marked man, they'd heard about how he was going to wear the Bellaghy shirt, he never stood a chance. Cassidy would have saved him, but Max never got a chance to find a phone booth to change his clothes in and of course, Max being a true pro, he took the pummelling rather than reveal his true identity.
What really happened?
There's a short report on BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/7129950.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/7129950.stm)
Just in. Very disappointing. Just a lot of people agreeing with each other that the world's in a terrible state of chasis.
No, sorry, I was talking about Newcastle's equaliser.
Quote from: hardstation on December 05, 2007, 10:52:59 PM
Saw a bit of it on the news. ONeill, would I be right in saying that you were probably the youngest there?
What about Brolly and Fergal P? They wouldn't be as old as you'd think you know.
Place packed to the rafters. Standing room only. Very emotional at times. Joe Brolly, Seamus McCloy, Jimmy Treacy among others. Some great speakers. Very clever people there also. No desire to go against the leadership, but people are very angry. But the big crowd says it all. Fergal McCusker was there also and spoke well.
Hopefully good people in the other provinces will now move on this. We need to send out the message that it is an All ireland issue, not just the Ulster fanatics.
We need meetings all over Ireland about this now. Get cracking. Ulster has spoken. Clearly. Now are the rest of the counties going to do anything?
Quote from: Seany on December 05, 2007, 11:06:05 PM
Place packed to the rafters. Standing room only. Very emotional at times. Joe Brolly, Seamus McCloy, Jimmy Treacy among others. Some great speakers. Very clever people there also. No desire to go against the leadership, but people are very angry. But the big crowd says it all. Fergal McCusker was there also and spoke well.
Hopefully good people in the other provinces will now move on this. We need to send out the message that it is an All ireland issue, not just the Ulster fanatics.
We need meetings all over Ireland about this now. Get cracking. Ulster has spoken. Clearly. Now are the rest of the counties going to do anything?
There were 300 there. 300 gaels in Ulster. Feck sake there's been more at my dog's wake.
Pointless, fruitless and just a vehicle for spleen venting. Be angry and emotional all you want. It'll make zero difference. BTW, Ulster's a province.
QuoteUlster has spoken. Clearly.
Hardly. The thing about this type of thing is that those who feel very strongly about the issue might attend but there are thousands in Ulster and elsewhere who either disagree with you or are fairly indifferent.
Quote from: hardstation on December 05, 2007, 11:06:29 PM
Neither would ONeill. He is definitely younger than Brolly.
Not a grey hair in my head.
The meeting has served it's purpose, it's given people a voice and has to have put the pressure on the GAA to, at the very least, put the issue to the membership (and surely no one would object to that?) - but it needs to be repeated around the country.
Quote from: ONeill on December 05, 2007, 11:14:34 PM
Quote from: hardstation on December 05, 2007, 11:06:29 PM
Neither would ONeill. He is definitely younger than Brolly.
Not a grey hair in my head.
Not a hair of any hue if the rumours are true
QuoteThe meeting has served it's purpose
Where's The Police?
Someone is Shouting "Stop!"
Over 400 Ulster gaels met in The Elk near Toome on Wednesday 5 December.
The meeting was called to see what the views of grass-roots GAA people were following the announcement days earlier of an inter-County GAA pay-per-play package agreed by some people in the GAA; the GPA; the Irish Sports Council; and the Irish Government.
Prior to the meeting email and telephone support had been received from concerned gaels in 28 different Counties across Ireland. Almost thirty different people, GAA men and women from across Ulster spoke from the floor on the night. The consistent threads across the contributions were:
• The GAA is being presented with pay-for-play, however it's being dressed up
• The Association's amateur status is sacrosanct
• Planned decisions on the proposals at this weekend's meeting of Central Council should be deferred
• A full consultation on the proposals across all levels and units of the GAA needs to be facilitated.
It was also made clear that GAA players are respected for the honourable place and role they have in the Association. Similar respect was voiced for the GAA as an organisation; for its structures and systems; and for its President.
At the end of the meeting there was unanimous support for the following resolutions:
1. There must be no change (other than properly mandated via Congress) to the GAA's amateur status as presented in its Rule 11: the current proposals fly in the face of that amateur status and Rule 11
2. The discussion of the current proposals planned for the forthcoming Management and Central Council meetings should be deferred
3. A full and proper discussion of these issues should take place across the GAA
4. Those present would proceed to use their own Club and County channels to voice their opposition to the current proposals.
Finally, the clear consensus was that should the current proposals be approved before a proper consultation with the membership is carried out, then a further meeting would be called to again gauge opinion.
not being there, It's difficult to understand how a meeting where everyone is in agreement can be described as "very emotional at times". did anyone speak to present croke park's or the government's position beyond the readily accepted hysteria?
Quote from: DMarsden on December 06, 2007, 09:29:36 AM
not being there, It's difficult to understand how a meeting where everyone is in agreement can be described as "very emotional at times". did anyone speak to present croke park's or the government's position beyond the readily accepted hysteria?
And in all GPA meetings there is structured debate with all parties mentioned in debate present ? ::)
Also it was an open forum for anyone to attend. If someone like yourself felt so strongly why did you go and represent your views. Media also present. When was the last GPA meeting like that. If memory serves me right the cameras and jounalists were barred.
This would have been the ideal oppurtunity for your leader to be present to remove any potential worries. As he stated in his newspaper column, he was pissed off with internet users and anyone who wanted to meet him he would.
Was there ANYONE who spoke out in favour of the grants ?
There was nobody in favour of grants, one or two speakers did highlighht the hypocrisy of payments to managers, saying that we had created a rod for our own backs. Another speaker who is the father of a current county player, did pose the question as to whether we were asking too much of our players, pointing out that pre-season training for county teams had begun ebefore the club leagues were even finished.
A lot of the anger seemed to be directed at the fact that the decision to award grants seems to have been rail-roaded in in an undemocratic fashion. Many speakers pointed to the fact that the awarding of grants contravenes Rule 11 and that any change to a rule in the official guide can only be effected by Congress. There was also input from those who consulted rugby clubs who said that while professionalism had increased their club's profile it had destroyed participation, they cited the example of the Malone club in Belfast which in the years before rugby turned professional that they had fielded 17 adult teams and that they now struggled to field five.
I hear Joe Brolly were there last night. Did anyone think to ask Joe which charity or club he donates the money he makes off the back of his fellow players? RTÉ pundit, newspaper articles, speaker circuit etc. all this on top of his healthily salary cheque as a barrister which has no doubt halped his profile and client base!!! Sickening hypocrisy again. If Joe feels so strongly about anyone profiting from our games he would want to look in the mirror. (By the way I don't object to Joe doing well just the hypocracy)
According to the paper today Lasts night meeting claimed to respresent "the true gaels" and "grassroots" of ulster GAA yet the only ones there were those opposing it by the sounds of it. Red Hand Luke - Who did you invite to speak on behalf on other parties?
Before you all jump down my throat and say you are not invited to GPA meetings or grant negotiations meetings you might want to note the following:
GAA (who you elected to represent you) : motion on grants has been debated at length over the past 5 years and was passed by central council months back
Government : Again this debate has taken place over the last five years in the public domain - how many of you approached a government representative to object to this?
GPA: They respresent their members- Inter County player who sign up to them - why would you be invited to a private members meeting?
By the way - One of your big issues here is that volunteers have to pay this. If the GPA took it out of the hands of GAA - would you be happy then?? I think not.
Again I ask what happened to stamping out the managers payments on the agenda????
ULSTER SAYS NO - UVA - emotive words lads, just a pity some common sense hasn't prevailed here
As far as I can see this is about a loss of control and people seeing an opportunity to make a name for themselves.
Quote from: Bensars on December 06, 2007, 09:39:15 AM
And in all GPA meetings there is structured debate with all parties mentioned in debate present ? ::)
Not for all but this was a meeting advertised as canvassing grass opinion. are you telling me there's noone of an opposite oinion among the growing numbers repoted to have been in attendance?
Quote from: Bensars on December 06, 2007, 09:39:15 AM
Also it was an open forum for anyone to attend. If someone like yourself felt so strongly why did you go and represent your views. Media also present. When was the last GPA meeting like that. If memory serves me right the cameras and jounalists were barred.
you'll have to get that brain trainer from santy, the press and photographers are regularly insitu for gpa meetings.
Quote from: Bensars on December 06, 2007, 09:39:15 AM
This would have been the ideal oppurtunity for your leader to be present to remove any potential worries. As he stated in his newspaper column, he was pissed off with internet users and anyone who wanted to meet him he would.
In your hysteria you have lost sight of the fact that this was an anti gaa meeting. the government and gpa's roles in all of this are over and this meeting was to rebel against our own leadership as an association, not that i'm saying thats necessarily a bad thing in itself.
Foxache - the example of rugby is a good one and very valid - prefessionalism wrecked rugby and will do the same to GAA - But Dessie and his mates won't mind that ( or at least that is how he / they are perceived ) -
It's time the GPA came out on television and SPELT IT OUT TO THE WIDER GAA PUBLIC THAT THEY DON'T WANT PAY FOR PLAY !
Quote from: Clubmember on December 06, 2007, 10:39:00 AM
I hear Joe Brolly were there last night. Did anyone think to ask Joe which charity or club he donates the money he makes off the back of his fellow players? RTÉ pundit, newspaper articles, speaker circuit etc. all this on top of his healthily salary cheque as a barrister which has no doubt halped his profile and client base!!! Sickening hypocrisy again. If Joe feels so strongly about anyone profiting from our games he would want to look in the mirror. (By the way I don't object to Joe doing well just the hypocracy)
According to the paper today Lasts night meeting claimed to respresent "the true gaels" and "grassroots" of ulster GAA yet the only ones there were those opposing it by the sounds of it. Red Hand Luke - Who did you invite to speak on behalf on other parties?
Before you all jump down my throat and say you are not invited to GPA meetings or grant negotiations meetings you might want to note the following:
GAA (who you elected to represent you) : motion on grants has been debated at length over the past 5 years and was passed by central council months back
Government : Again this debate has taken place over the last five years in the public domain - how many of you approached a government representative to object to this?
GPA: They respresent their members- Inter County player who sign up to them - why would you be invited to a private members meeting?
By the way - One of your big issues here is that volunteers have to pay this. If the GPA took it out of the hands of GAA - would you be happy then?? I think not.
Again I ask what happened to stamping out the managers payments on the agenda????
ULSTER SAYS NO - UVA - emotive words lads, just a pity some common sense hasn't prevailed here
As far as I can see this is about a loss of control and people seeing an opportunity to make a name for themselves.
If central council, congress and croke park took every decision in the GAA for the last number fo years then the ban to play foreign sports would not have been lifted in 1971 and Croe Park would never have been opened to soccer and rugby - the precedent has been set to ask the whole association their opinion on major issues - whether you like it or not this is a major issue
Once again it's not a rule change!! If nickey & co felt it was they wouldn't have rushed it through. They are not that stupid
Quote from: orangeman on December 06, 2007, 10:41:56 AM
It's time the GPA came out on television and SPELT IT OUT TO THE WIDER GAA PUBLIC THAT THEY DON'T WANT PAY FOR PLAY !
The gpa have already done this through more official and accountable measures. this has been pointed out continually but unless its written on the blackboard in crayon it seems the message flounders on the rock of modern communication.
Quote from: Clubmember on December 06, 2007, 10:39:00 AM
I hear Joe Brolly were there last night. Did anyone think to ask Joe which charity or club he donates the money he makes off the back of his fellow players? RTÉ pundit, newspaper articles, speaker circuit etc. all this on top of his healthily salary cheque as a barrister which has no doubt halped his profile and client base!!! Sickening hypocrisy again. If Joe feels so strongly about anyone profiting from our games he would want to look in the mirror. (By the way I don't object to Joe doing well just the hypocracy)
We are back to this nonsense now are we?
Lads,
this is no longer a gpa issue.
Quote from: DMarsden on December 06, 2007, 11:39:16 AM
Lads,
this is no longer a gpa issue.
good, will they disband then? Or at least a few leadership changes?
When the OrangeMen won their one and only AI they allegedly spent up to £500,000.00. There were men turning up to training to do stats, physios, fitness/nutrition people and management - were these people all doing it for the love of their county?
Mr Conway was nearly in tears on TV and radio about the sacrosanct amateur status of the GAA. Who is he kidding? Tyrone spend hundreds of thousands on their quest for AI glory every year. Every half decent club side - Junior/Int/Snr pays a manager - what did Dromore spend this year?
Inter County players need to live, they deserve all they get.
Times move on, we are in a competitive market place in most of Ireland. Soccer and rugby are sniping at us - if we don't look after our no. 1 asset - the players, we will ultimately flounder.
If you can't see that this meeting, and people's vitriol about the distribution of government money concerns the GAA only, you have further issues. the gpa and the government's roles in this scenario are over and agreed with everyone, including croke park.
Why should the gpa disband?
Mid Louth - thanks for the welcome.
I agree that some clubs don't play a manager - many do.
You don't tackle my main point - the critics of players getting paid a few quid seem happy to turn a blind eye to all the other money sloshing about. Inter county managers are earning what? €50k, €100k - we all hear rumours? Can someone tell us (without naming names of course).
I train underage teams in my club and it costs me - diesel, phones, kit washing, training gear, time. I resent it more that many clubs in our county are paying managers (including our own), than that inter co. players get a few quid.
Club soccer/rugby players pay to play - gaelic footballers/hurlers still will for their club/parish. But if you ask a guy to put his career and family on hold for 5-10 years, then surely he deserves something. I don't resent paying to watch inter-county football - the players provide the entertainment and often suffer for it.
Behind then wire well said.
We are a democratic organisaton and as such should have a say in the running of OUR association, I was never asked at a club meeting my opinion on this sbuject in fact my or county were never asked.
I think we were not asked on purpose because the top branch knew the answer they would get and they thought they could phob us off with soime government grant scheme the lesser of two evils rather than face the GPA down.
Quote from: DMarsden on December 06, 2007, 12:06:18 PMWhy should the gpa disband?
Because they have a serious image problem, imo, the 'grassroots' have much more of a problem with the GPA as they currently stand than they do with any grants. They are divisive and confrontational, such stances are not a good way to engender public support.
Quote from: RedBlack on December 06, 2007, 12:15:54 PM
Mid Louth - thanks for the welcome.
I agree that some clubs don't play a manager - many do.
You don't tackle my main point - the critics of players getting paid a few quid seem happy to turn a blind eye to all the other money sloshing about. Inter county managers are earning what? €50k, €100k - we all hear rumours? Can someone tell us (without naming names of course).
Redblack, most people dissaprove of managers being paid. Its against the rules.
I aso like how you say SOME dont pay, then MANY do, as if to suggest the majority of clubs do this ::)
I'm sick of hearing the managers being paid argument as somehow justifying the grants, two wrongs dont make a right, how many times do we need to say it!!!
Quote from: RedBlack on December 06, 2007, 12:15:54 PM
I train underage teams in my club and it costs me - diesel, phones, kit washing, training gear, time.
You have to pay for training gear??? Seriously??? I dont know of ANY club who wont provide this. I just dont beleive that.
Quote from: RedBlack on December 06, 2007, 12:15:54 PM
Club soccer/rugby players pay to play - gaelic footballers/hurlers still will for their club/parish. But if you ask a guy to put his career and family on hold for 5-10 years, then surely he deserves something. I don't resent paying to watch inter-county football - the players provide the entertainment and often suffer for it.
Who is asking the player to put his career and family on old. I know of a certain well known meath footballer who manages to play intercounty, has a wife and two small children, a decent career and also found the time to run for election to the dail!!! And he is still playing in Leinster with his club even at this stage of the year.
Certainly doesnt seem to have put anything on hold.
And look at the state of club soccer and Rugby in Ireland, its a shambles.
This is a terrible argument.
Quote from: RedBlack on December 06, 2007, 11:50:08 AM
Mr Conway was nearly in tears on TV and radio about the sacrosanct amateur status of the GAA. Who is he kidding? Tyrone spend hundreds of thousands on their quest for AI glory every year.
You're right Tyrone spend a great deal of money each year, a lot of which comes from voluntary contributions from Club Tyrone members (a quarter of a million or thereabouts) who value the voluntary contributions of time and effort from others (players, officials, administrators).
In the sentiments of the county board, if the Tyrone players were to get a grant of £2k cold hard cash each and end the benefits there, the county board would be a lot better off.
QuoteBut if you ask a guy to put his career and family on hold for 5-10 years, then surely he deserves something.
With respect RedBlack shite like that makes me fume. So when player A is asked to join a county squad, a position he can say no to, he is told that he can't get job promotion and that he can't have kids or get married for 5-10 years. Utter crap and a very poor argument.
I would argue that the majority of money funding county team is for the benefit of the players. The hundreds of thousands it costs to fund intercounty teams is spent on food, clothes, travel, physios etc. Would you have it that county players so pick up this bill themselves?? Why would anyone object to a physio getting paid for his job, or a bus driver for doing his.
Managers should not get paid but some do. I know for a fact that in his first 2 years in charge of Tyrone Mickey Harte did not take one penny from the county board, not even mileage. I'm not sure what he does now but that was certainly the case when he started. However the issue with managers getting paid is that it is behind closed doors and secretive. It won't appear in the clubs accounts at the AGM, so it is very difficult to go after anyone. Players getting paid in this fashion is however very open. If managers are received massive pay deals, then surely the Revenue can audit these kinds of things. If you are driving a new car, how did you pay for that? It's now up to people to prove they earned any money and paid tax on it.
Quote from: RedBlack on December 06, 2007, 11:50:08 AM
When the OrangeMen won their one and only AI they allegedly spent up to £500,000.00. There were men turning up to training to do stats, physios, fitness/nutrition people and management - were these people all doing it for the love of their county?
Mr Conway was nearly in tears on TV and radio about the sacrosanct amateur status of the GAA. Who is he kidding? Tyrone spend hundreds of thousands on their quest for AI glory every year. Every half decent club side - Junior/Int/Snr pays a manager - what did Dromore spend this year?
Inter County players need to live, they deserve all they get.
Times move on, we are in a competitive market place in most of Ireland. Soccer and rugby are sniping at us - if we don't look after our no. 1 asset - the players, we will ultimately flounder.
Mark Conway was, and still is, the key figure in success story of the Club Tyrone model that now is the basis for so many counties funding the hundreds of thousands they spend on their county teams. Surely he has contributed has much to our Association as Dessie Farrell and has much right to voice his opinion on something that could transpire to be as minor as the removal of the ban, rule 21 or rule 42 or to be the worst mistake in the history of the Association.
Re: IC players need to live and deserve all they get - illustrate please the difference between a non county Crossmaglen Rangers player and any other County player in the country in this respect. Why are they less entitled to the grant when their commitment is surely equal to that of an IC Player at worse. At least many of the IC players got a bit of a break from Football over this past 18 months.
I see Dessie is calling the meeting a "rump group" – I'd suggest that you need to break out of Ulster and have a Dublin meeting asap if you are to avoid this tag and the lazy headlines of "Ulster Says No".
Dublin meeting for next week lads while you have the medias attention!
Quote from: scalder on December 06, 2007, 12:37:27 PM
I see Dessie is calling the meeting a "rump group" – I'd suggest that you need to break out of Ulster and have a Dublin meeting asap if you are to avoid this tag and the lazy headlines of "Ulster Says No".
Dublin meeting for next week lads while you have the medias attention!
I'd agree with that, theres some lazy stereotypes out there about Ulster GAA going back to the rule 42 debate.
They will uses theses stereotypes to discredit you if its just coming from the North.
The Down County squad has been training up to 4 nights a week, for at least the last month. One of the players was dropped off the squad allegedly for going to a club dinner.
Unless you are a school teacher, a student, self employed or working for a county supporter, how can you work at a normal job, travel 40 miles away to training for 7pm, home at 10-11pm, challenge matches at weekends etc etc without a lot of hassle? Something has to give.
The IC palyers/GPA are also GAA men - have they all become greedy b*stards overnight, with no love for the association or game? Maybe they see everyone else gettin a slice of the cake and resent it - I don't know, but I have some sympathy for them.
Quote from: RedBlack on December 06, 2007, 01:20:56 PM
The Down County squad has been training up to 4 nights a week, for at least the last month. One of the players was dropped off the squad allegedly for going to a club dinner.
Unless you are a school teacher, a student, self employed or working for a county supporter, how can you work at a normal job, travel 40 miles away to training for 7pm, home at 10-11pm, challenge matches at weekends etc etc without a lot of hassle? Something has to give.I
Quote
If a player was dropped for going to a club dinner, thats the managers issue and nothing to do with grants. If he got this grant would he not have been dropped??
Re the highlighted commitments above, many club players do the very same thing.
Me personally, I worked a "normal job" 30 miles from home last year, got home for training at 8. Got home approx 10.30pm, then trained or travelled to games at the weekend, should I get the grant???
Nope, I'm just a club player ::)
Yes its "hassle" because its a commitment to attend these training session and matches. But its a choice. If your work situation does not permit this commitment, you either find a job that does or dont train / play. Are you suggesting this small grant will make a difference to these circumstances or are you argueing for full on professionalism? I cant see how the grant would solve these problems.
p.s. I dont know of many training sessions involving players who need to travel starting as early as 7pm, thats stupidity on the managements behlaf and nothing to do with the grants.
You must be one of them Redblack ??? ;)
Redblack, an argument about how much a players trains is really pointless as I can't imagine anyone here who's against the grants advocating that amount off training and I would rather see the GAA come out and issue guidelines and rules around the time spent training. btw you do realise that if they grants go through the players will be expected to give the gaa more of their time.
I see our pro grant camp have gone around in silly circles this morning, everything from players not being fit to have kids to Brolly should be working for the RTE for free to it's the organisers fault of last night's meeting that no one spoke in favour of the grants.
Can I just ask those in favour of the grants a very simple question and a yes or no answer will do.
Do you think this issue should go to the membership as rules 42 and 21 did?
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 06, 2007, 01:47:00 PM
Can I just ask those in favour of the grants a very simple question and a yes or no answer will do.
Do you think this issue should go to the membership as rules 42 and 21 did?
Yes
Good point, something has to give, and restrictions may well need to be enforced, but thats not a strong enough arguement to bring in pay for play. I have studied most of the debate from the GPA supporters and have found that their arguements for pay for play are often based on attacking people, their viewpoints being vague and now currently trying to isolate a province.
Many people are also apathetic, I hate to have a go at you O Neill and If Im wrong I apologise but you seem to watch your GAA on television, so these guys are maybe the grassroots to you.
I would have strong reservations about anyone who would paint a county footballer as a greedy bastard, and was actually openminded about the whole debate, but Im now concerned that it will have ordinary people leaving in droves. They contribute so much but too me they have always gained the most from their association with the association. It is that amateur ethic at work here not smallminded people but indeed successful smart thinkers who recognise the value of all our input. I believe fundraising efforts like club Tyrone will be mortally wounded instantanaeously. You have to ask yourself why does a man cut a pitch, why does he wash a jersey whay does he attend meetings and why does he waste his own time, why does he buy a ticket, give donations and finacial aid to the gaa and get so passionate and het up at protecting the GAA when under threat. Why because its his way of contributing to society but in the main its all about providing better for our sportsmen and women. What amazing facilities have already been put in place. In any opther sport you will not get to play at the highest level unless you are a professional full time athlete, You will not get to play in front of crowds and you will not be held in such prestige. I dont know what part of the deal is wrong for county footballers. Sometimes I wonder are they happy to be represented by Dessie and when did they elect him, how did he manage to get onto central council and all that? Could somebody on central council please stand up for the sizable opposition to this deal. Why do the GPA go for the money, there are other more important issue concerning players that need addressed. Why go for the money?
As for the future of the GAA and I ask debaters not to insult anyones intelligence, call it what it is, if the GAA does go professional, forget about voluntary effort at the level it has been in 10 years time. You will still have the clubs and many within them will still persevere and toil, kind of like sunday league soccor, but I can assure you many will not. But as far as the county is concerned I cant speak for anybody but myself, I dont think I woiuld be particularly interested in attending a Tyrone county game again. That will mean very little to most people, but thats currently the way I feel and I wonder is ther many out there who feel the same.
Clubmember previously pointed out on this board that its not about the money its about the recognition for the players ???
Quote from: Thastheball on December 06, 2007, 02:25:36 PM
Its clear from reading here that not to many of you play county football in todays world. I do, and for anyone to even remotely sugget that the average club footballer puts in the same amount of time and dedecation simply does not have the vaguest clue. If you want to play county football you have no choice, it is either all or nothing. And I am from a county where we have no success. the GAA should rename its self as the HAA, the Hypocritical Athletic Assoc.
Why do you do it?
Quote from: Thastheball on December 06, 2007, 02:25:36 PM
Its clear from reading here that not to many of you play county football in todays world. I do, and for anyone to even remotely sugget that the average club footballer puts in the same amount of time and dedecation simply does not have the vaguest clue. If you want to play county football you have no choice, it is either all or nothing. And I am from a county where we have no success. the GAA should rename its self as the HAA, the Hypocritical Athletic Assoc.
Actually from the last poll we have quite a few intercounty players on here ;)
Why would the GAA rename themselves as the Hypocritical Athletic Assoc over this debate?? They arent against the grants, remember.
Quote from: Thastheball on December 06, 2007, 02:34:08 PM
[Because I love football. Very simple. I would love to give more time to my career, but I love this to much.
[t
Good, I'm sure that's the same for 99.9% of intercounty players - so would 2k per year make you love it more?
Because I love football. Very simple. I would love to give more time to my career, but I love this to much.
Exactly, and its better to love football than playstation, but both are past times. Diffrence is you'll not get a grant for your playstation
Quote from: rrhf on December 06, 2007, 02:19:24 PM
Good point, something has to give, and restrictions may well need to be enforced, but thats not a strong enough arguement to bring in pay for play. I have studied most of the debate from the GPA supporters and have found that their arguements for pay for play are often based on attacking people, their viewpoints being vague and now currently trying to isolate a province.
Many people are also apathetic, I hate to have a go at you O Neill and If Im wrong I apologise but you seem to watch your GAA on television, so these guys are maybe the grassroots to you.
I would have strong reservations about anyone who would paint a county footballer as a greedy bastard, and was actually openminded about the whole debate, but Im now concerned that it will have ordinary people leaving in droves. They contribute so much but too me they have always gained the most from their association with the association. It is that amateur ethic at work here not smallminded people but indeed successful smart thinkers who recognise the value of all our input. I believe fundraising efforts like club Tyrone will be mortally wounded instantanaeously. You have to ask yourself why does a man cut a pitch, why does he wash a jersey whay does he attend meetings and why does he waste his own time, why does he buy a ticket, give donations and finacial aid to the gaa and get so passionate and het up at protecting the GAA when under threat. Why because its his way of contributing to society but in the main its all about providing better for our sportsmen and women. What amazing facilities have already been put in place. In any opther sport you will not get to play at the highest level unless you are a professional full time athlete, You will not get to play in front of crowds and you will not be held in such prestige. I dont know what part of the deal is wrong for county footballers. Sometimes I wonder are they happy to be represented by Dessie and when did they elect him, how did he manage to get onto central council and all that? Could somebody on central council please stand up for the sizable opposition to this deal. Why do the GPA go for the money, there are other more important issue concerning players that need addressed. Why go for the money?
As for the future of the GAA and I ask debaters not to insult anyones intelligence, call it what it is, if the GAA does go professional, forget about voluntary effort at the level it has been in 10 years time. You will still have the clubs and many within them will still persevere and toil, kind of like sunday league soccor, but I can assure you many will not. But as far as the county is concerned I cant speak for anybody but myself, I dont think I woiuld be particularly interested in attending a Tyrone county game again. That will mean very little to most people, but thats currently the way I feel and I wonder is ther many out there who feel the same.
RRHF, I'm actually beginning to believe you haven't read what this grant scheme is all about and are one of the masses who has been swept along by heresay and doomsday scenarios. I'm still waiting on your reply as to what my 'argument' is and how it's 'naive'.
And the next time I'm freezing my balls off during the winter club minor/McKenna games I'll look out for you, but I'd doubt you'll be there. I rarely attend summer games these days as my family weekend time comes first and it has become a fashion/drinking circuit in Tyrone.
Seriously lads, an we still be serious about putting playstation, hill walking and chess clubs on a par with being a county footballer? is it possible that there are people within our own organisation who regard meeting the commiment requirements to last on a county panel as a hobby? it's my belief that anyone peddling this line need to enlighten themselves of the real requirements, or are simply arguing for the sake of it.
As for your "arguement" / viewpoint / approach whatever, it lacks depth, forsight and research, so I actually invented the word naiive to describe that. It is pitched at county player level. It dosent really deal with the Derrytresk clubman selling his next ticket to fundraise and being told to f**k off because a semi professional orgainsation should be fit to be self financing. Or maybe you covered that in your arguement barely concealing your long term desire to havre adebayor playing for Tyrone. Have an emoticon ;)
Quote from: DMarsden on December 06, 2007, 03:00:00 PM
Seriously lads, an we still be serious about putting playstation, hill walking and chess clubs on a par with being a county footballer? is it possible that there are people within our own organisation who regard meeting the commiment requirements to last on a county panel as a hobby? it's my belief that anyone peddling this line need to enlighten themselves of the real requirements, or are simply arguing for the sake of it.
Look, we all know county footballers, we know how difficult it is, I've stated before that I'd be happy enough to pay them some sort of living grant in order to become full time if that were possible. But, any player who is letting his dedication to his county impact detrimentally on the rest of his life is a fool. If he is not happy with the committment required, leave, if it's impacting on his relationships with others (and he's unhappy about this), leave. He only has one life, he should live it.
I remember as a youngster, when I'd be running out to training or a match the night before an exam, you'd always get the 'football won't pay the bills, you know' from the mother on the way out, and it doesn't, nor will it ever.
Whilst I respect the work that players put in, I totally reject that their committment entitles them to monetary recompense, that is a stupid argument, and since you mention it, yes, I put any other hobbyist (who spends that amount of time) on the same level - they don't get the media intrusion or criticism (which I am totally against too), but neither do they get the perks, the glory, the career advancement and the women (nobody has mentioned that one before).
In the same why the govn dishes out grants to elite athletes across the sporting codes, the GAA has finally been granted equal treatment. I don't see any problem in that whatsoever.
Instead of lighting fires and preparing pikes, the GAA at all levels should be tightening the rules on how the county boards distribute the grant. That's the real discussion. The authorities should be debating measures to ensure no-one (and there will be those who try) abuses the grants, be it a board or individual players.
There's every chance that with a downturn in the economy, the govn will be unable to continue with the grant scheme in three year's time. That could be when Dessie really earns his stripes!
QuoteAs for your "arguement" / viewpoint / approach whatever,
I knew you would be unable to explain this. "Your argument is naive" is a favoured response/tactic from those who don't like the slimest of opposition no matter what is being said but doesn't listen to what is being said and can't explain it.
Of course it's pitched at county player level. Comparing the ticket seller to the GAA athlete at the top of their chosen code is complete nonsense. Have you any idea of the grant money we're talking about here in terms of the individual? Are you expecting Rolls Royces and bling? You probably are.
there is a very clear distinction O Neill - we don't have elite athletes. My definition of elite athletes are those that get paid to play their sport. Our athletics teams compete against professionals- even our handballers compete against professionals in the States and Spain.Paul Brady our best handballer won 50k dollars in the States playing handball not so long ago.
Ours is an indigenous game played at amateur level- i can't imagine any county players has put more time into the GAA this year then my own senior club team who are still training and who do weights-recovery sessions- training and games in any given week. This is all down to the fact that IC create revenue and they want a cut of it in some shape or form. Inter county players have been creating revenue for the GAA since the year z. If you want to be a professional or an elite athlete then go and play professional sport - no-one is putting a gun to your head to play at county level.
I presume no-one at the Elk last night belongs to a club which is paying a manager. If there were some there in that position I would say they are hypocritical for not sorting their own house out first - I haven't heard a clamour about professionalism from them before.
To the man who is selling a club raffle ticket - I don't think that a County player getting a few quid for his efforts will be a problem with the punter who pays to watch him at Clones as he earns the GAAs money. The punter may object to that same club paying a trainer/manager (probably from outside the parish) £200-300.00 or more per week. Or am I missing the point?
Quote from: ONeill on December 06, 2007, 03:24:36 PM
QuoteAs for your "arguement" / viewpoint / approach whatever,
I knew you would be unable to explain this. "Your argument is naive" is a favoured response/tactic from those who don't like the slimest of opposition no matter what is being said but doesn't listen to what is being said and can't explain it.
Of course it's pitched at county player level. Comparing the ticket seller to the GAA athlete at the top of their chosen code is complete nonsense. Have you any idea of the grant money we're talking about here in terms of the individual? Are you expecting Rolls Royces and bling? You probably are.
no its not. that is exactly what the association has thrived on for years. the only difference being that the intercounty player is lucky enough to be chosen to represent their county. that is (or was) the beauty of the thing.
Quote from: Thastheball on December 06, 2007, 03:09:37 PM
Quote from: rrhf on December 06, 2007, 02:48:05 PM
Because I love football. Very simple. I would love to give more time to my career, but I love this to much.
Exactly, and its better to love football than playstation, but both are past times. Diffrence is you'll not get a grant for your playstation
I wont respond to that shite....did somebody mention the word respect
Quote from: Rois on December 06, 2007, 02:42:46 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 06, 2007, 02:34:08 PM
[Because I love football. Very simple. I would love to give more time to my career, but I love this to much.
[t
Good, I'm sure that's the same for 99.9% of intercounty players - so would 2k per year make you love it more?
No it wont, i never said that I was for the grant, but with all the other people getting paid for their contribution to the gaa, whats wrong with a government grant
ALL what other people?
The GPA and the Player Welfare Officer have brought about some badly needed improvements in the treatment of players – gear, proper mileage expenses, meals, etc. There are undoubtedly some areas that still need looking at, eg the player insurance scheme doesn't pay for the first week and this is an area that should be covered – though I believe it should be covered for ALL players and not just intercounty. But to give individuals "grants" just seems plain wrong in my book.
Up and down the country we have club officers who aren't claiming a cent for out of pocket expenses and I'm talking about actual spends out of their own pockets as well as mileage etc. I think people like them will now see the players getting a grant on top of the expenses they already get and wonder why they should be the idiots out of pocket.
Playing for your county, or working in your club, are labours of love, or at least they should be. Some past-times are more expensive than others (be that "expense" time, effort or hard cash), but nobody forces anybody to do any of it. There is an ever-widening and dangerous gulf between club and county and there is a very real danger that these payments will further widen that gulf.
Quote from: RedBlack on December 06, 2007, 01:20:56 PM
The Down County squad has been training up to 4 nights a week, for at least the last month. One of the players was dropped off the squad allegedly for going to a club dinner.
Unless you are a school teacher, a student, self employed or working for a county supporter, how can you work at a normal job, travel 40 miles away to training for 7pm, home at 10-11pm, challenge matches at weekends etc etc without a lot of hassle? Something has to give.
That is the problem here IMO. An inter-county (IC) player is expected to give up anything between 4-7 nights/days training for the championship.
I think the GAA need to mandate a standard for training and fixtures that encompasses the whole country, set clear boundaries between club time and county time. Then limits are applied which ensure that players are not asked to make unreasonable commitments.
For instance, all counties play senior club games on a sunday, all clubs train on tues and thurs - and if there is no game, train on sunday as well. Counties can train on wednesdays - thats it. Limit it to 1 day a week, IC football should be moving towards less of a step above club football IMO - more like what internationals are for soccer players.
A week before the IC championship, normally IC players won't play much anyway - so the clubs shouldn't train that week, the counties can do what they want - train those 5 evenings.
I also think that the intercounty championships need to be re-arranged so more than 1 game within a province occurs on the one day. If all the 1st round games (in the country) were played on the one day TV couldn't cover them all and some revenue would be lost (imagine that - all them county grounds actually getting used and being for 1st round games again!) but, is money more important than the soul of the association - I think not. Condensing the IC fixtures will free up more time for club football, and let the IC players play for their clubs instead of train for their counties.
For those advocating the grants - IMO its extremely dangerous, look at the state of local soccer and rugby. The cornerstone of the GAA is the club and the volunteer club member - they bring in the future.
The foundations of any organisation is not near the top (where the GPA thinks it is) - they are at roots. It would extremely unwise to marginalise that which the association is built on.
Quote from: RedBlack on December 06, 2007, 03:31:48 PM
To the man who is selling a club raffle ticket - I don't think that a County player getting a few quid for his efforts will be a problem with the punter who pays to watch him at Clones as he earns the GAAs money.
Imagine you were someone who went to a county referees committee meeting every week. You were responsible for organising referee assessments in the county for as many matches as humanly possible. You spent your time circulating letters to referees, phoning them up, rearranging for last minute hitches. Then you have to assess a referee (maybe two) every weekend yourself. During the summer you cover matches for the Ulster Council and Croke Park (intercounty obviously). You write reports, collate reports from other assessors and organise referee training. You have to go to Dublin a couple of times a year (from Tyrone) to get an update on recent refereeing and assessment issues.
Now, that's the intercounty effort. As a clubperson you attend the weekly committee meeting. You meet outside these meetings with the other members of the club development committee to organise the lottery application and plan the new training pitch. You contact the surveyors, architects, meet with the bank to discuss your financing. You spend half an hour collecting the club lotto envelopes each week.
Why would you do this? Because you choose to. You don't expect payment for it, because it makes you feel good to do it, you're part of a club, part of a county.
In what way is that a less valuable contribution to the GAA than the intercounty player?
Quote from: INDIANA on December 06, 2007, 03:31:06 PM
there is a very clear distinction O Neill - we don't have elite athletes. My definition of elite athletes are those that get paid to play their sport.
A good start would be to go get a dictionary and get a defintion of what elite actually means, not what you want it to mean to suit an agenda.
Taken from the Cambridge Dictionary:
Definition
elite
group noun [C]
the richest, most powerful, best educated or most highly trained group in a society:
the country's educated elite
a member of the elite
DISAPPROVING A powerful and corrupt elite has bled this country dry.
Few interesting words in that definition......
Quote from: Thastheball on December 06, 2007, 03:09:37 PM
Quote from: rrhf on December 06, 2007, 02:48:05 PM
Because I love football. Very simple. I would love to give more time to my career, but I love this to much.
Exactly, and its better to love football than playstation, but both are past times. Diffrence is you'll not get a grant for your playstation
I wont respond to that shite....did somebody mention the word respect
Quote from: Rois on December 06, 2007, 02:42:46 PM
Quote from: Thastheball on December 06, 2007, 02:34:08 PM
[Because I love football. Very simple. I would love to give more time to my career, but I love this to much.
[t
Good, I'm sure that's the same for 99.9% of intercounty players - so would 2k per year make you love it more?
No it wont, i never said that I was for the grant, but with all the other people getting paid for their contribution to the gaa, whats wrong with a government grant
Has anyone in the GPA ever asked the GAA to do something about the high profile managers and the ridiculously arduous and long winded training methods being employed these days?
The problem is in the last few years inter county training has spawned a mini industry in the fitrness world and i feel the GPA are trying to push the association down a route where we pay players instead of stepping back and saying hold on a second there's no need for guys to be doing organised 4-nights-a-week training 8 months before they kick a ball in the championship.
Quote from: FTJC on December 06, 2007, 04:39:02 PM
Has anyone in the GPA ever asked the GAA to do something about the high profile managers and the ridiculously arduous and long winded training methods being employed these days?
The problem is in the last few years inter county training has spawned a mini industry in the fitrness world and i feel the GPA are trying to push the association down a route where we pay players instead of stepping back and saying hold on a second there's no need for guys to be doing organised 4-nights-a-week training 8 months before they kick a ball in the championship.
Exactly.
As I see it that is the real problem, and some pittance "grants" (in the real world these payments are token gestures - although highly symbolic and controversial) are not going to change that.
Quote from: Thastheball on December 06, 2007, 02:25:36 PM
Its clear from reading here that not to many of you play county football in todays world. I do, and for anyone to even remotely sugget that the average club footballer puts in the same amount of time and dedecation simply does not have the vaguest clue. If you want to play county football you have no choice, it is either all or nothing. And I am from a county where we have no success. the GAA should rename its self as the HAA, the Hypocritical Athletic Assoc.
Jesus, here's another one that has a gun put to his head.
Shouldn't the GAA be doing something about all these players that are forced to play?
QuoteBecause I love football. Very simple. I would love to give more time to my career, but I love this to much.
And there we have it! Why, in the name of f**k!, should you be paid for something you love?
You put a lot of time into the gaa but it's so you can do something you love and you're crying and whinging looking a few euro for it, have you every thought about the people who put just as much time into the GAA as you so they can do the most boring and mundane, but vitally important tasks? You tell me why you should be paid over them.
Quote
I wont respond to that shite....did somebody mention the word respect
Respect for what?
dmarsden
Quote
Seriously lads, an we still be serious about putting playstation, hill walking and chess clubs on a par with being a county footballer? is it possible that there are people within our own organisation who regard meeting the commiment requirements to last on a county panel as a hobby?
What is it then?
Rois
Quote
Imagine you were someone who went to a county referees committee meeting every week. You were responsible for organising referee assessments in the county for as many matches as humanly possible. You spent your time circulating letters to referees, phoning them up, rearranging for last minute hitches. Then you have to assess a referee (maybe two) every weekend yourself. During the summer you cover matches for the Ulster Council and Croke Park (intercounty obviously). You write reports, collate reports from other assessors and organise referee training. You have to go to Dublin a couple of times a year (from Tyrone) to get an update on recent refereeing and assessment issues.
Now, that's the intercounty effort. As a clubperson you attend the weekly committee meeting. You meet outside these meetings with the other members of the club development committee to organise the lottery application and plan the new training pitch. You contact the surveyors, architects, meet with the bank to discuss your financing. You spend half an hour collecting the club lotto envelopes each week.
Why would you do this? Because you choose to. You don't expect payment for it, because it makes you feel good to do it, you're part of a club, part of a county.
In what way is that a less valuable contribution to the GAA than the intercounty player?
That's probably one of the best posts I've ever read on this board and without doubt the best in this discussion.
I look forward to the responses.
btw I'm disappointed that only one of the pro grant posters had the balls to answer the question I posed.
Quote
Imagine you were someone who went to a county referees committee meeting every week. You were responsible for organising referee assessments in the county for as many matches as humanly possible. You spent your time circulating letters to referees, phoning them up, rearranging for last minute hitches. Then you have to assess a referee (maybe two) every weekend yourself. During the summer you cover matches for the Ulster Council and Croke Park (intercounty obviously). You write reports, collate reports from other assessors and organise referee training. You have to go to Dublin a couple of times a year (from Tyrone) to get an update on recent refereeing and assessment issues.
Now, that's the intercounty effort. As a clubperson you attend the weekly committee meeting. You meet outside these meetings with the other members of the club development committee to organise the lottery application and plan the new training pitch. You contact the surveyors, architects, meet with the bank to discuss your financing. You spend half an hour collecting the club lotto envelopes each week.
Why would you do this? Because you choose to. You don't expect payment for it, because it makes you feel good to do it, you're part of a club, part of a county.
In what way is that a less valuable contribution to the GAA than the intercounty player?
That is the argument of someone who doesn't understand what the govn grant is for. There are people in soccer, rugby etc in this country who do that at lower-level/school who also don't get paid but do it for he love of it. And that's great. That's pure volunteer material. And that's what makes all games tick.
However, the grant scheme is nothing to do with valuing one group within the GAA ahead of the other. The GAA aren't making this decision. The govn have decided that because other amateur elite athletes are subsidised simply due to their excellence at a given sport. The top GAA athletes are also eligible for this.
Besides, if you do the admin described above for the love of it, why would your ethos change just because the govn have decided to subsidise top players? That shouldn't change things...unless the volunteer element was fickle in the first place. Don't forget, many of these players will continue to take underage sides or help out in the same manner as before.
QuoteThere are people in soccer, rugby etc in this country who do that at lower-level/school who also don't get paid but do it for he love of it. And that's great. That's pure volunteer material. And that's what makes all games tick.
Oh goodie, lets be like rugby and soccer ::)
Erm, we are in terms of volunteering at a certain level.
I can see now why no one answered whatever question it was....
The question was should the issue go to the membership as rules 42 and 21 did - maybe you'd like to answer it or I suspect it doesn't apply to you as you'd hardly know where your club was.
Nope, it doesn't apply to me as I don't know where my club is.
Now, run along.
QuoteNow, run along.
:D
Gladly, the argument "I'm more intelligent than you all and none of you understand" was funny at first but it's boring now.
I wholeheartedly agree. (Stick to your signature O'Neill!)
QuoteA small rump of malcontents'
'I'm not sure what the opposition is based on' says GPA chief Dessie Farrell
By Donnchadh Boyle
Thursday December 06 2007
"A small rump of malcontents"-- that's how GPA chief Dessie Farrell described the meeting that took place last night in Toome, Co Antrim.
The meeting was organised by a group of GAA people who fear irreparable damage to the association if the proposed grants scheme for players agreed by the Government, the GPA, the GAA and the Irish Sports Council goes ahead.
Speaking ahead of Saturday's Central Council meeting, which is expected to see the agreement rubber-stamped by the GAA, Farrell played down the opposition to the scheme, which has gathered a head of steam since the GPA's announcement just over a week ago.
Opposed
"I know that there has been a contingent up north who have been opposed to the scheme but I don't know how broad that opinion is," the GPA's chief executive said. "By and large we have had huge cross the board support for this, but obviously change can be difficult for some people."
Much of the opposition to the grants has come from administrators and Farrell agrees that there is something of a 'generation gap' between officers and their county squads but believes that this is changing.
"That has been prevalent in the history of the GPA, but I feel that mindsets have changed and perhaps that difference isn't as obvious as it once was. In a sense there has been a changing of the guard and I think that has helped move things on."
Resistance has been at its strongest in Ulster where the Tyrone and Derry county board chairmen Pat Darcy and Seamus McCloy have already indicated that their units will not be assisting in the distribution of the grants.
"I'm not sure what that (Ulster opposition) is based on. Perhaps it is an extension of the opposition that there was to changes in Rule 42 and Rule 21. What's important is that the players are still revered and respected in their own locality and this scheme in no way damages the amateur ethos," Farrell continued.
"To be honest I can't understand how any GAA person would be willing to stand over a situation where their own players are being discriminated against -- other athletes from other codes are eligible for grants and they are still considered amateur."
The former Dublin footballer confirmed that payers from both Tyrone and Derry had been in contact expressing concern at their chairman's stance.
"The players (from those counties) must be asking themselves why. It must be very disappointing for them. Why would anyone begrudge their own players a grant?
Last night's meeting in Antrim was chaired by All-Ireland winning Armagh footballer Barry O'Hagan, and Farrell confirmed that his organisation was not invited to attend.
"No, we're not invited nor will we have a representative present. The GAA has a huge membership all around the country and I wonder what constitutes a ground swell? But I'd ask the question -- how many people going to that meeting are from clubs who pay their managers? People choose to ignore certain issues. Other amateur codes get aided and there is no issue so there is a certain degree of hypocrisy involved," he remarked.
Validity
Farrell also hit out at Mayo County Board Secretary Sean Feeney who questioned the validity of the GPA's vote for strike action. In his report for his county convention, Feeney stated the grants scheme was 'more or less pay for play' while he also questioned the voting system undertaken by the GPA when it balloted its members on the possibility of strike action.
"To be honest I don't even think that warrants comment," Farrell retorted. "Our vote was scrutinised by independent auditors as well as several journalists. Mr Feeney's comments were spurious and disingenuous."
If, as is expected, Central Council direct county boards to distribute the funds to their players, Tyrone and Derry will find themselves at odds with Croke Park which could lead to further disruption. In that case, Farrell insisted the GPA would have no issue in distributing the grants to players.
"We would be happy to step in. There is no logistical reason why we couldn't."
Central Council needs only 51pc of the vote to pass the scheme on Saturday and Farrell doesn't foresee any problems.
"I don't see any reason why the scheme won't be passed," he concluded.
- Donnchadh Boyle
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/a-small-rump-of-malcontents-1239007.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/a-small-rump-of-malcontents-1239007.html)
Dessie does the GPA yet another favour, he's great he is, so tactful. Regarding the pay for play issue, I think it's been accepted by the GAA/GPA that players will be liable for tax on this money, that would make it income, hmm.......
There's definitely much to be discussed on both sides.
Yes because we must remember, there will always be those who are there to take and there will always be those who are there to give.
Is a county player a taker?
---------------------------------------------
...There are people in soccer, rugby etc in this country who do that at lower-level/school who also don't get paid but do it for he love of it. And that's great. That's pure volunteer material. And that's what makes all games tick...
---------------------------------------------
Club rugby is dying a slow death in this country. The biggest strength of the GAA is simple - it's the club! At grassroots level we wipe the floor with soccer and rugby, so we definitely should not be looking to those two organisations for inspiration in this regard.
I'm really happy that these true Gaels organised the meeting in the Elk last night. They're right, this is that start of us going down a slippery slope. Consider a few things:
1. The grants that players get is performance based. What will stop Mattie Ford going to the European High Court arguing that by playing with Wexford he's not being given a fair opportunity to maximise his potential earnings, and therefore should be allowed to transfer to Kerry?
2. Consider Pillar Caffrey has to decide between a Na Fianna clubman and a St. Vincents clubman for the last place on the panel. Now we have money involved as this place is now worth around €2k (and undoubtedly much more in a couple of years time). Again the lawyers could have a field day.
3. The players do not have a gun put to their head to play. If the prima-donnas feel that they'll not do it unless they're paid ... well good riddance to them! In Donegal there's 100's of guys who'd give their right hand to wear the green and gold, and I as a fan would turn out to watch any Donegal senior team play in a big championship match ... so long as it's full of Donegal men playing for the pride of their county.
4. The D4 media really gets up my goat. They think that the GAA is all about the big championship matches for the inter-county teams, they really don't have a clue. As any true GAA man knows, the ultimate is the club championship. I feel that the players are starting to let this hype get through to them, and they're been egged on by our clueless media (don't get me started on the Independent!). The biggest GAA issue is not the "welfare" of players (well unless we start paying them), but the issue of club fixtures. That's a MUCH bigger issue for the GAA ... however the top brass have allowed the GPA to push them into making this payment issue the biggest issue.
5. Rule 21 and Rule 42 were voted on by the clubs, by all us honest-to-God GAA members. This has become a major issue, and this should be allowed to go through a vote by the clubs. I absolutely and utterly disagree with Nicky Brennan's assessment that the clubs had known about this the last 5 years and had time to table motions about this ... WRONG! It was never up to the clubs to be the pro-actors on this, it was up to the GAA hierarchy to come back to the clubs and say "hey we've got this proposed deal with the GPA and the Sports Council and we've got to administrator it -> do we have your backing?" ... it's simple Nicky, this is a big issue. You couldn't change rule 42 without the backing of the GAA membership, and you certainly shouldn't be allowed to allow the payment of players without the backing of the whole GAA membership, and stop playing up to those in the national media who've never been to a club match.
Rant over! And it's ok, I didn't get a heart-attack while writing this!! :)
Nice rant - Voice of reason - I think the best point you made there is that there are hundreds of men who would give their right arm to play for their county but can't - and they wouldn't want paid - in fact they'd pay for the privilege !
Mark Conway speaking at the Elk from the BBC. And you won't believe it they have him a Derry supporter :D They better Kildress that straight away!!!!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/sol/newsid_7130000/newsid_7130500/7130522.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm&news=1&bbcws=1
One last thing - the Crossmaglen, St. Vincents, Ballina, Portumna, Birr, Nemo, Dunloy, Moorfield, Tyrrellspass, etc. players put in _massive_ effort too ... should they be looking for pay for play? Or is this fact not sexy enough for the media and Dessie Farrell?
The clubman is the heartbeat of the GAA, and if the county players get paid (let's not butter this current issue up any other way), it will eventually permeate through to club level, and then we're destroyed. We'll just be soulless like like rugby and soccer, we'll have lost what we're all about.
Make no mistake about it, once this door is opened, there's no going back. And if it's opened I'll make a motion at my club AGM to put a stop to it. I'm sure there's thousands of other members thinking the same. We've got to act now.
posted on orchardcounty.com - no source though.
QuoteCROSSMAGLEN RANGERS OPPOSE PLAYERS GRANT SCHEME
Current All-Ireland club football champions and one of the best-known clubs in the country, Crossmaglen Rangers has called for the grant money that is set to be distributed to inter-county players to go to the club of the county instead.
The club will now put forward a motion at the Armagh Co. Convention on Monday, 17th of December saying that the money would be better spent going to the clubs that develop and coach players in the first place.
If the motion to the Co. Convention is successful it will then go to GAA Congress. The motion reads: "That the players' grant announced by the Government should be allocated directly to the clubs of the country who have developed and nurtured the talent of young children to produce inter-county players.
"This grant would be better spent in ensuring that these same clubs can continue to produce inter-county players of the future or help mitigate the spiralling costs of the Players Injury Scheme.''
A number of motions regarding the players grant scheme are expected from a number of Ulster counties including a motion from the Enniskillen Gaels club for the Fermanagh Convention and one from St. Mary's GFC, Faughanvale for the Derry convention which will be held this coming week-end.
There have been some good points (by both sides) and some bad points (by both sides) in this dicussion but I hope the anti-grant brigade can see this as the overly emotional drivel it is
QuoteI'm really happy that these true Gaels organised the meeting in the Elk last night. They're right, this is that start of us going down a slippery slope. Consider a few things:
1. The grants that players get is performance based. What will stop Mattie Ford going to the European High Court arguing that by playing with Wexford he's not being given a fair opportunity to maximise his potential earnings, and therefore should be allowed to transfer to Kerry?
2. Consider Pillar Caffrey has to decide between a Na Fianna clubman and a St. Vincents clubman for the last place on the panel. Now we have money involved as this place is now worth around €2k (and undoubtedly much more in a couple of years time). Again the lawyers could have a field day.
3. The players do not have a gun put to their head to play. If the prima-donnas feel that they'll not do it unless they're paid ... well good riddance to them! In Donegal there's 100's of guys who'd give their right hand to wear the green and gold, and I as a fan would turn out to watch any Donegal senior team play in a big championship match ... so long as it's full of Donegal men playing for the pride of their county.
4. The D4 media really gets up my goat. They think that the GAA is all about the big championship matches for the inter-county teams, they really don't have a clue. As any true GAA man knows, the ultimate is the club championship. I feel that the players are starting to let this hype get through to them, and they're been egged on by our clueless media (don't get me started on the Independent!). The biggest GAA issue is not the "welfare" of players (well unless we start paying them), but the issue of club fixtures. That's a MUCH bigger issue for the GAA ... however the top brass have allowed the GPA to push them into making this payment issue the biggest issue.
5. Rule 21 and Rule 42 were voted on by the clubs, by all us honest-to-God GAA members. This has become a major issue, and this should be allowed to go through a vote by the clubs. I absolutely and utterly disagree with Nicky Brennan's assessment that the clubs had known about this the last 5 years and had time to table motions about this ... WRONG! It was never up to the clubs to be the pro-actors on this, it was up to the GAA hierarchy to come back to the clubs and say "hey we've got this proposed deal with the GPA and the Sports Council and we've got to administrator it -> do we have your backing?" ... it's simple Nicky, this is a big issue. You couldn't change rule 42 without the backing of the GAA membership, and you certainly shouldn't be allowed to allow the payment of players without the backing of the whole GAA membership, and stop playing up to those in the national media who've never been to a club match.
Point 1 hardly deserves a response, but Mattie Ford or Declan Brown could have made a small fortune over the years if they were willing to play for other counties, they didn't, why would they do so for an extra 1-2K?
Point 2 see point one but with the added bonus of physic intervention.
Point 3 how many of those hundreds would turn down money that is there for them as IC players?
Point 4 The D4 media, yep that's it, sure there is no GAA coverage in the papers unless a fight breaks out or the GPA our spouting
Point 5 The clubs weren't aware about this? I seem to remember many discussions on this very site about the GPA and their agenda. seems strange to me that the rest of the grass roots were unaware of this impending issue.
No offence Voice of Reason but you are anything but.
I have been involved in this debate from the start and to everyone's credit it has remained by and large a good discussion devoid of unnecessary or over the top abuse. Am I wrong to say that most of the anti-grant/GPA lads feel that this is an irreversible step towards professionalism and that is why they oppose it or is it something else? If it something else can one of you put it down in clear unambiguous language. Thanks.
Big news down in Mayo - the county board has given a unanimous NO vote to the proposed GPA deal in the last hour or so. Every single one of the 40 club delegates voted against the proposed GPA deal.
This is getting more and more interesting.
I guess dessie and Heirarchy failed to canvass opinion in mayo.
Where did this canvasssing of support take place ?
The Malcontents are growing in number
Quote"I know that there has been a contingent up north who have been opposed to the scheme but I don't know how broad that opinion is," the GPA's chief executive said. "By and large we have had huge cross the board support for this, but obviously change can be difficult for some people."
Any word on the Ulster council tonight ?
Good news from Mayo indeed!
Well done Mayo!
I think that the GAA top brass and the GPA have made a _very_ big judgement error on what the grassroots think of this proposed grants scheme
Great news from the auld sod - has it been confirmed?
Quote1. The grants that players get is performance based. What will stop Mattie Ford going to the European High Court arguing that by playing with Wexford he's not being given a fair opportunity to maximise his potential earnings, and therefore should be allowed to transfer to Kerry?
This is what gets me most. Some are painting inter-county players as money-grabbing ogres, or with the potential to be one. As a clubman they're great amateur players displaying the much-lauded ethos of volunteerism. But as soon as they pull on the county jersey, they're capable of the above.
However, you do make one point that has always concerned me since it was first mooted - the potential abuse of the grants by managers who'll maybe 'look after' a friend or clubman. As I've always said, much discussion is needed.
Crossmaglen's announcement is a little puzzling - so they're actually not against the grants? That flies in the face of many here who are totally opposed to any govn money being handed over at all.
QuoteGreat news from the auld sod - has it been confirmed?
Ah jaysus, i'm hardly making it up now. Have i no street cred around here at all !!
You must be in a right rock and a hard place Stephenite - Sean Feeney and co having the exact same opinion as yourself and leading the charge to scrap the GPA deal :P
If this Mayo decision is replicated even in 9-10 counties across the country, we're in for a year of upheaval. There could be messy times ahead.
QuoteIf this Mayo decision is replicated even in 9-10 counties across the country, we're in for a year of upheaval. There could be messy times ahead.
Given that every single Mayo club delegate voted against it then i think is fair to say the GPA deal would get at least a majority voting against it in pretty much all counties
Quote from: ONeill on December 06, 2007, 11:21:49 PM
If this Mayo decision is replicated even in 9-10 counties across the country, we're in for a year of upheaval. There could be messy times ahead.
And all for a couple of thousand euro.
Looks like there is a ground swell of opinion growing against this deal alright. It's going to be an interesting Christmas.
Quote from: blast05 on December 06, 2007, 11:19:24 PM
QuoteGreat news from the auld sod - has it been confirmed?
Ah jaysus, i'm hardly making it up now. Have i no street cred around here at all !!
You must be in a right rock and a hard place Stephenite - Sean Feeney and co having the exact same opinion as yourself and leading the charge to scrap the GPA deal :P
Your integrity is not in question Blast - however these rumours have a habit of spreading just after meetings and sometimes the rumours don't exactly match up with what actually transpired.
I have been a long term critic of Feeney and justifiably so - his public utterances in the past have in the main been ill conceived and not in the best interests of Mayo GAA, but credit where it's due on this one
Fair dues Maigh Eo, 100% fair dues! :D
Jeez this 'rump of malcontents' is transmogrifying itself into an awful hoor of an arse altogether, or is that what Dessie's making of himself these days! What piece of slander will he dig up to label the good folk of Mayo with? The Great Hunger perhaps... "ah, sure dey were always complainin' boud sometin".
Dessie has shown himself to be fairly useless when dealing with public opinion in the past, but I don't think even he would be so thick as to insult the GAA membership of an entire County.
Am interested in what the players of Mayo make of this - if they were to come out and back the club delegates then it could be curtains for the GPA, but I's suspect that this is unlikely
So the following scenario looks like playing out:
1. Most counties vote against the deal
2. The GAA still ratify it
3. GPA says they'll look after the money in terms of distribution.
4. GPA membership grows
5. Non-GPA players withdraw from squads.
Quote from: ONeill on December 06, 2007, 11:08:22 PM
Quote1. The grants that players get is performance based. What will stop Mattie Ford going to the European High Court arguing that by playing with Wexford he's not being given a fair opportunity to maximise his potential earnings, and therefore should be allowed to transfer to Kerry?
This is what gets me most. Some are painting inter-county players as money-grabbing ogres, or with the potential to be one. As a clubman they're great amateur players displaying the much-lauded ethos of volunteerism. But as soon as they pull on the county jersey, they're capable of the above.
However, you do make one point that has always concerned me since it was first mooted - the potential abuse of the grants by managers who'll maybe 'look after' a friend or clubman. As I've always said, much discussion is needed.
Crossmaglen's announcement is a little puzzling - so they're actually not against the grants? That flies in the face of many here who are totally opposed to any govn money being handed over at all.
Gotta agree with the ardboe man on this. He's absolutely right
Quote from: ONeill on December 06, 2007, 11:21:49 PM
If this Mayo decision is replicated even in 9-10 counties across the country, we're in for a year of upheaval. There could be messy times ahead.
Well, the GAA top brass have obviously not got their ears to the ground if they did not see this coming. Let the momentum gather. It's time the grass roots started to make themselves heard on this issue (as well as address the other hypocrisies which are prevalent btw ...before anyone starts that old argument)
Quote from: ONeill on December 06, 2007, 11:49:54 PM
So the following scenario looks like playing out:
1. Most counties vote against the deal
2. The GAA still ratify it
3. GPA says they'll look after the money in terms of distribution.
4. GPA membership grows
5. Non-GPA players withdraw from squads.
Dunno about no 5 O' Neill. If it meant that much to them, they'd sooner join the GPA, than withdraw from the squad, but their non membership in the first place would suggest that it doesn't matter to them. I do think though, that the GPA should distribute the grants as I can understand why it might be unpalatable for those within the various county administrations affected by the current proposals
Quote from: ONeill on December 06, 2007, 11:49:54 PM
So the following scenario looks like playing out:
1. Most counties vote against the deal
2. The GAA still ratify it
3. GPA says they'll look after the money in terms of distribution.
4. GPA membership grows
5. Non-GPA players withdraw from squads.
I thought I saw that the grant money is dependent on the GAA distributing the money and not the GPA? I know Dessie would love to get his hands on it , and has said so but I cannot see the Central Council agreeing to allow the GPA look after the money.
Quote from: ONeill on December 06, 2007, 11:49:54 PM
So the following scenario looks like playing out:
1. Most counties vote against the deal
2. The GAA still ratify it
3. GPA says they'll look after the money in terms of distribution.
4. GPA membership grows
5. Non-GPA players withdraw from squads.
Or:
1. Most counties vote against the deal
2. The GAA still ratify it
3. GPA says they'll look after the money in terms of distribution.
4. The non-GPA players and management are hostile to the set-up
5. GPA players are not invited to participate further
6. GPA atrophies and eventually fades away
Quote from: ONeill on December 06, 2007, 11:21:49 PM
If this Mayo decision is replicated even in 9-10 counties across the country, we're in for a year of upheaval. There could be messy times ahead.
I have no doubt it will, county boards will be county boards - I can see a lot of merit in both sides of the argument, but there's also a lot of emotive nonsense written here. We're in danger of blowing this up out of all proportion, as pints said, 2 grand tops, ffs
Some sort of compromise may be needed, and if so, I believe Lynchbhoy's proposal (and possibly many others too, as he'd hardly have come up with it on his own) of taking the full grant amount and putting it into some sort of inter-county player hardship fund is the way forward, hell, the GAA should be made to match the govt grant, that way all parties are giving up a little bit.
If the GPA aren't prepared to compromise, they can be told that they may accept the grants as stipulated, however all other monies from supporters groups and county boards towards training expenses will be stopped/limited......
I don't know lads, but this whole thing is turning into a right mess, the beeb, utv and the rugby loving meeja down here will be loving this.
QuoteI don't know lads, but this whole thing is turning into a right mess, the beeb, utv and the rugby loving meeja down here will be loving this.
I don't know about that, I think that this issue has highlighted in many ways what a wonderful and unique organisation we are part of. What other major sports organisation in the world makes a decision which can be challenged by the common member in such a way? Anyone reading this site knows my opinion on this issue but this whole debate makes me very proud of this organisation. And the best thing about this, is that whatever the outcome when this is all eventually settled we will all dust ourselves down and get on with the job of keeping the GAA great.
QuoteSo the following scenario looks like playing out:
1. Most counties vote against the deal
2. The GAA still ratify it
3. GPA says they'll look after the money in terms of distribution.
4. GPA membership grows
5. Non-GPA players withdraw from squads.
I don't see how No. 2 can happen if central council delegates all get a similar mandate as Mayos central council rep. James Waldron got tonight. Even if they all won't have got a mandate by the weekend, they will nonetheless certainly sit up and take note of what is after happening down in Mayo and thus try to kick to touch at Saturdays meeting, i.e.: postpone a decision until the new year.
QuoteSome sort of compromise may be needed, and if so, I believe Lynchbhoy's proposal (and possibly many others too, as he'd hardly have come up with it on his own) of taking the full grant amount and putting it into some sort of inter-county player hardship fund is the way forward, hell,
Quoting from speech that the Mayo secretary will give at the Mayo GAA convention next Monday:
"The grant from the government should be ploughed straight into the player injury fund where all players would benefit. Rate per mile should increase to 70c. A lunch allowance of €10 per day of training. A holiday fund for each county senior team starting at €20,000 for first round participants and bonuses for progress."
How i see the whole affair playing out:
- Central council will postpone a decision this weekend until the new year thus giving all clubs/counties a chance to discuss it and see where they stand
- The reconvened meeting of the central council in January will reject the proposals
- GPA players will strike
- In the background, improvements to how players are looked after will be brought in by the GAA along the lines of what the Mayo secretary said above
- This will result in players getting back to the business of playing with the GPA fizzling away
Hi All,
First post although the have been reading with interest for quite some time. It was this thread in particular that actually made me sign up. I cant believe some of the sanctamonious sh1te that has been typed in here from both sides of the argument, some invinitely more than others. I wont name names as im trying not to alienate myself already. :) I was actually seething reading some of it but maybe thats just my temper. Anyway ive chosen my side of this argument already but some people here are swaying me slightly.
Care to elaborate on any of those points?
Quote from: stephenite on December 06, 2007, 11:57:19 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 06, 2007, 11:49:54 PM
So the following scenario looks like playing out:
1. Most counties vote against the deal
2. The GAA still ratify it
3. GPA says they'll look after the money in terms of distribution.
4. GPA membership grows
5. Non-GPA players withdraw from squads.
I thought I saw that the grant money is dependent on the GAA distributing the money and not the GPA? I know Dessie would love to get his hands on it , and has said so but I cannot see the Central Council agreeing to allow the GPA look after the money.
I think Dessie has already intimated that he would have no hesitation doing so.
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 12:32:59 AM
Quote from: stephenite on December 06, 2007, 11:57:19 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 06, 2007, 11:49:54 PM
So the following scenario looks like playing out:
1. Most counties vote against the deal
2. The GAA still ratify it
3. GPA says they'll look after the money in terms of distribution.
4. GPA membership grows
5. Non-GPA players withdraw from squads.
I thought I saw that the grant money is dependent on the GAA distributing the money and not the GPA? I know Dessie would love to get his hands on it , and has said so but I cannot see the Central Council agreeing to allow the GPA look after the money.
I think Dessie has already intimated that he would have no hesitation doing so.
Oh, I know he has, and if memory serves me he has been consistent in that. And why wouldn't the GPA want to distribute the grants - I think that the GAA would strongly object to this though, as it leaves them out of the loop and I could be wrong I think the funding is dependent on the GPA not distributing the grants
Dessie is quoted in the Independent as saying there is no logistical reason why they (the GPA) couldn't distribute the grants. Not sure what he means exactly by logistical but would assume that I am incorrect in saying that the grants are dependent on the GPA not distributing
Congratulations to the Mayo county board for voting against the grants.
Hopefully the "detailed" report the Ulster Council are sending to Croker today will follow the same line, here's for more counties to follow.
Congratulations to Mayo on standing up and being counted, unlike our crew. Not very often that I'll be praising ye but it has to be done.
Unfortunately, the GPA executive Mayo football and hurling panels issued this statement in response:
The Mayo senior football and senior hurling panels reaffirm their support for government funding for inter-county players agreed last week between the GAA, GPA and the Government. We are extremely disappointed that our County Board would attempt to deny Mayo players parity of esteem with athletes of other codes through a scheme which does not damage the amateur ethos in any way. We stand firm on the grants agreement, which was achieved after a thorough and exacting process of negotiation.
This subject has been discussed in the public for five years, and reported widely in the media. Prior to this week, there was very little public opposition to the concept of recognising the efforts of inter-county players with Government funding. However, we are now told there is "unanimous" opposition to the idea at Mayo County Board level, yet it appears this decision was hastily taken by delegates without mandate from their clubs or without consultation with players involved.
All Mayo players would ask of its County Board that they be afforded due respect and recognition under this proposed scheme, and that the hurlers and footballers who have the honour of wearing the county jersey with pride receive full support.
The Gaelic Players' Association accepts, unreservedly, Rule 11 of the GAA's official guide concerning the amateur status of the Association. The GPA is absolutely satisfied that this agreement does not infringe upon that status, which is also acknowledged by Croke Park.
Also I didn't mention when viewing Conor Mortimer's earlier comments on the grants, but after that I hope the fcuker gets a few slaps from our lads next June.
Begrudgers, all of you!
We're all jealous F---KERS !!!! :D :D :D
QuoteMayo talisman Conor Mortimer has claimed that inter-county players were left with no choice but to vote for a strike.
The Gaelic Players Association (GPA) voted three weeks ago on the controversial matter of whether or not to boycott the league until the players grants issue is resolved.
And according to DCU man Mortimer, the players are fully behind the action.
"The vast majority of current players I have spoken to are supporting what we are doing and a lot of people outside the playing ranks are too," Mortimer told the Irish Sun.
"A lot of the lads taking about being involved for the joy and the love of it are ex-players and while that comes into it too, there's a principle at stake here too.
"It's not about the money. You'd spend the figures involved on a good holiday.
"But, the way most of the players see it, it's so hard to get anything out of the GAA. It always seems to be a struggle.
"Everyone that I've spoken to seems to be off the same attitude."
::) That's me convinced.
The longer this goes on the more obvious it becomes that these payments are 'pay for play'. the Mayo players statement refers to ' recognising the efforts of intercounty players with goverment funding.' When farmers get the same recognition by way of grant is it not regarded as payment. You can dress it up anyway you like but it is still payment.
The ramifications off these payments have not been sufficiently considered and Croke Park finessing the issue for the sake of a temporary solution will not wear with those who have considered where this could lead.
What happens when the northern revenue decides this is taxable income and anyway what are southern tax payers doing subsidising people outside the jurisdiction.
What happens when somebody is expelled from a squad and goes to law because they didn't get 'their money'.
The possibilities for dispute are endless but if this goes through you can be sure that the days of a county board giving a player a helping hand on the q.t. will be well gone.
Just keep thinking of where pay for play has brought Rugby - especially club rugby - and you will know this is a road best turned away from.
P,S. We should thank Dessie for letting the mask slip and letting us know what he really thinks of those not prepared to let the Association be destroyed. To misquote another great Mayo man - Its time someone shouted stop.
Quote from: Owenmoresider on December 07, 2007, 06:45:17 PM
Congratulations to Mayo on standing up and being counted, unlike our crew. Not very often that I'll be praising ye but it has to be done.
Unfortunately, the GPA executive Mayo football and hurling panels issued this statement in response:
The Mayo senior football and senior hurling panels reaffirm their support for government funding for inter-county players agreed last week between the GAA, GPA and the Government. We are extremely disappointed that our County Board would attempt to deny Mayo players parity of esteem with athletes of other codes through a scheme which does not damage the amateur ethos in any way. We stand firm on the grants agreement, which was achieved after a thorough and exacting process of negotiation.
This subject has been discussed in the public for five years, and reported widely in the media. Prior to this week, there was very little public opposition to the concept of recognising the efforts of inter-county players with Government funding. However, we are now told there is "unanimous" opposition to the idea at Mayo County Board level, yet it appears this decision was hastily taken by delegates without mandate from their clubs or without consultation with players involved.
All Mayo players would ask of its County Board that they be afforded due respect and recognition under this proposed scheme, and that the hurlers and footballers who have the honour of wearing the county jersey with pride receive full support.
The Gaelic Players' Association accepts, unreservedly, Rule 11 of the GAA's official guide concerning the amateur status of the Association. The GPA is absolutely satisfied that this agreement does not infringe upon that status, which is also acknowledged by Croke Park.
Also I didn't mention when viewing Conor Mortimer's earlier comments on the grants, but after that I hope the fcuker gets a few slaps from our lads next June.
So what will happen now with the Mayo set up? Personally I am happy the Co Board voted the way they did without a dissenting member, but it's going to be an interesting few days if other Co Boards follow suit. Will other panels challenge their county boards?
It's time Dessie was made to stop !!!! ;) :D
He is nothing short of a shop steward - Arthur Scargill !
He's no Jim Larkin ! Larkin campaigned for the poor - Dessie is campaigining for himself -
Then he goes and lets the cat out of the bag by saying that he'll distribute the money himself ! ;D Of course you will Dessie ! ;) :D ;D
So, Zoyler, the next time a young club member of yours received a bursary/grant from the govn for being excellent at his sport, and it's GAA, at uni, what are you going to say to him?
I have yet to hear one sensible argument for our top players not receiving govn grants for being high achievers in their chosen sport.
I do plenty for the GAA. I cannot activately partake in the sports for one reason and another, but I give my time over to the club. I design the club's website, I was once a member of the Summer Scheme and Youth Club until I was unable to physically continue. Not once did I look for a penny for my time and services. Had I have been offered any, I would have refused the money. To me, the GAA is about community. It is about a sense of belonging. No money can buy that.
QuoteDessie is campaigining for himself
How?
Quote from: ziggysego on December 07, 2007, 10:50:09 PM
I do plenty for the GAA. I cannot activately partake in the sports for one reason and another, but I give my time over to the club. I design the club's website, I was once a member of the Summer Scheme and Youth Club until I was unable to physically continue. Not once did I look for a penny for my time and services. Had I have been offered any, I would have refused the money. To me, the GAA is about community. It is about a sense of belonging. No money can buy that.
Yes, and that's the essense of a volunteer. How does 20-30 of the best footballers/hurlers in your county receiving a small portion of a govn grant affect your work or ethos?
Making sure he in his own words "increases turnover" !!! That's how !!!
Did Dessie not have a book of his own out a few years ago ????? With similar problems to Oisin or relationship difficulties etc ????
He's still out for a few bob off the back of the GAA !
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 10:54:49 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on December 07, 2007, 10:50:09 PM
I do plenty for the GAA. I cannot activately partake in the sports for one reason and another, but I give my time over to the club. I design the club's website, I was once a member of the Summer Scheme and Youth Club until I was unable to physically continue. Not once did I look for a penny for my time and services. Had I have been offered any, I would have refused the money. To me, the GAA is about community. It is about a sense of belonging. No money can buy that.
Yes, and that's the essense of a volunteer. How does 20-30 of the best footballers/hurlers in your county receiving a small portion of a govn grant affect your work or ethos?
Probably because the players volunteer their services too?
It creates a hiearchy, a sense these are the elite members of the GAA. They are more important to the GAA that the club players, the guy who takes care of the grounds, the women at make the tea and sandwiches, the lotto sellers.
They are not and everyone is equal.
The inter-county players can be taken out of the GAA and it would survive. It wouldn't survive the other way around.
Ziggy, that's like saying if they take the teachers out of a school but leave the cleaners, workmen, classroom assistants in place, the school still survives. That's wrong and illogical. Those people are needed but they cannot survive without the former.
Yes, there's an elite. Right back to the days of Iggy Jones, Frankie Donnelly and Sean O'Neill, there has been an elite. Now the govn are recognising their achievements as exceptional athletes and rewarding them for their excellence. Volunteers should not be affected (don't forget those 25-30 county players are also volunteers before and after their county stint) in their ethos. If they do it's either because they begrudge those players or they weren't volunteers at heart in the first place. If you'd been told Sean Teague received a financial sum in 2006/7, how'd you feel?
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:04:50 PM
If you'd been told Sean Teague received a financial sum in 2006/7, how'd you feel?
Wouldn't have been happy ONeill.
Forgive me, and I'll probably get shot for saying this, but....
I think that Sean Cavanagh is a fantastic footballer and was relieved that he didn't go to Australia when he got an offer from the AFL. I commended him for putting the GAA first, but wouldn't have blamed him at the same time if he chose to go down south.
However with him being one of the key role models within the GPA and him looking for payment (and it is payment), I sometimes wonder would he not have been better taking the offer in Australia.
QuoteZiggy, that's like saying if they take the teachers out of a school but leave the cleaners, workmen, classroom assistants in place, the school still survives. That's wrong and illogical. Those people are needed but they cannot survive without the former.
Hardly a good comparison as club football will go on as normal as there are several thousand wiling to be teachers.
Sean is not looking payment. This is receiving recognition on the same level as every other major amateur sport in Ireland. He's not looking payment for playing for the Moy. County board receive a lump sum depending on how far they progress in the championship. It is up to that CB to decide how to distribute it in consultation with the players. Why can't people understand this? Tyrone CB could use this to great effect only they've decided to pull an ostrich and players will now probably be in receipt of the monies directly.
The debate within GAA circles should be how the money is spent. If the govn is handing out money, take it. It is much, much above board than club treasurers handing out envelopes to managers.
QuoteHardly a good comparison as club football will go on as normal as there are several thousand wiling to be teachers.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 10:49:55 PM
I have yet to hear one sensible argument for our top players not receiving govn grants for being high achievers in their chosen sport.
Very simply O'Neill, the sports would become professional (once the grants are paid) and this would begin the irreversible change for the worse of our games as we know them.
You're a smart guy, you can follow the argument through for yourself.
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:20:51 PM
QuoteHardly a good comparison as club football will go on as normal as there are several thousand wiling to be teachers.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
Maybe that's why you haven't heard a sensible argument against the grants - it goes straight over your head.
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:20:51 PM
QuoteHardly a good comparison as club football will go on as normal as there are several thousand wiling to be teachers.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
Makes perfect sense to me
That is a non-argument. Again, this is money set aside from the govn to reward the best athletes in all codes. Up until now the GAA never recieved any. Now CBs will. This doomsday scenario argument has no merit and suggests the GAA hierarchy is not of you and me, incapable of reaching decisions in the interests of the GAA ethos. They are.
Quote from: ziggysego on December 07, 2007, 11:24:03 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:20:51 PM
QuoteHardly a good comparison as club football will go on as normal as there are several thousand wiling to be teachers.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
Makes perfect sense to me
Explain it Ziggy for me.
If teachers walk out of a school, as you say, there'll be more teachers willing to fill their spaces. Afterall, there is a shortage of jobs for teachers at the minute.
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 10:49:55 PM
So, Zoyler, the next time a young club member of yours received a bursary/grant from the govn for being excellent at his sport, and it's GAA, at uni, what are you going to say to him?
I have yet to hear one sensible argument for our top players not receiving govn grants for being high achievers in their chosen sport.
Can you list all athletes in all sports who have achieved elite status, i.e. who are in receipt of a government grant?
The GAA would seem to have an awful lot of elite athletes.
Is Conleth Gilligan an elite athlete?
Eh? You said GAA would survive with grassroots alone. No it wouldn't, or not as we know it. The inter-county scene makes the money. You wouldn't have Croker, Healy etc without it. Teaching wouldn't survive without the qualified and best teachers as we know it...
Quote from: saffron sam2 on December 07, 2007, 11:35:31 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 10:49:55 PM
So, Zoyler, the next time a young club member of yours received a bursary/grant from the govn for being excellent at his sport, and it's GAA, at uni, what are you going to say to him?
I have yet to hear one sensible argument for our top players not receiving govn grants for being high achievers in their chosen sport.
Can you list all athletes in all sports who have achieved elite status, i.e. who are in receipt of a government grant?
The GAA would seem to have an awful lot of elite athletes.
Is Conleth Gilligan an elite athlete?
Where do you want me to start - with Brian Cullen or just keep it Ulster?
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:36:48 PM
Eh? You said GAA would survive with grassroots alone. No it wouldn't, or not as we know it. The inter-county scene makes the money. You wouldn't have Croker, Healy etc without it. Teaching wouldn't survive without the qualified and best teachers as we know it...
Granted (no pun intended) I'll give you that ONeill. However, as nice as Croke Park is.... and it IS, but if it means having to give up the amature status..... well give me An Caisleán Glas' pitch anyday.
QuoteEh? You said GAA would survive with grassroots alone. No it wouldn't, or not as we know it. The inter-county scene makes the money. You wouldn't have Croker, Healy etc without it. Teaching wouldn't survive without the qualified and best teachers as we know it...
Of course the GAA would survive with grassroots alone, it may not be a well off as it is today but it would survive.
There is hardly a threat to the intercounty scene though.
Diarmuid Marsden
Caroline Kelly
Sharon McGovern
Anthony Tohill,
Cormac McAnallen,
Paul Brewster
James McCartan
Just big names or all of them?
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:26:33 PM
This doomsday scenario argument has no merit and suggests the GAA hierarchy is not of you and me, incapable of reaching decisions in the interests of the GAA ethos. They are.
I actually believe they have greatly misjudged this one. For the GPA and Mayo players among others to say that this has been discussed for the last 5 years is plain wrong. The vast majority of folk in the GAA never gave this issue serious thought up until such time as it was announced that the deal had been made. There was an underlying presumption that the GAA would never bow the knee and the GPA would eventually dissolve into nothing. We (those against the deal) were caught on the hop big time. Given the incredible level of significance involved in the deal, the leadership have made a seriously bad call in not letting this decision be decided using the normal process. However, it seems very much a decision was made by our leaders to not engage us mere peasants for fear we would derail the whole thing and that is simply unforgiveable.
Anyway, as i said before, i fully expect it to be kicked to touch tomorrow at the central council meeting with a decision postponed until next January.
If only if only if only the GPA would come out with a vision, a roadmap, call it what you will where they lay it out in black and white where they want to see the gmae in 3-5 years time.
Quote from: blast05 on December 07, 2007, 11:47:00 PM
I actually believe they have greatly misjudged this one. For the GPA and Mayo players among others to say that this has been discussed for the last 5 years is plain wrong. The vast majority of folk in the GAA never gave this issue serious thought up until such time as it was announced that the deal had been made. There was an underlying presumption that the GAA would never bow the knee and the GPA would eventually dissolve into nothing. We (those against the deal) were caught on the hop big time. Given the incredible level of significance involved in the deal, the leadership have made a seriously bad call in not letting this decision be decided using the normal process. However, it seems very much a decision was made by our leaders to not engage us mere peasants for fear we would derail the whole thing and that is simply unforgiveable.
Anyway, as i said before, i fully expect it to be kicked to touch tomorrow at the central council meeting with a decision postponed until next January.
If only if only if only the GPA would come out with a vision, a roadmap, call it what you will where they lay it out in black and white where they want to see the gmae in 3-5 years time.
Of that there is no doubt. The GPA's campaign was one of them and us (with them being the general public). It was wrong and Geezer's involvement in this surprised me as I'd thought he was of sound mind!
If people are arguing that we need more discussion/convincing/assurance on this, I agree.
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:38:44 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on December 07, 2007, 11:35:31 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 10:49:55 PM
So, Zoyler, the next time a young club member of yours received a bursary/grant from the govn for being excellent at his sport, and it's GAA, at uni, what are you going to say to him?
I have yet to hear one sensible argument for our top players not receiving govn grants for being high achievers in their chosen sport.
Can you list all athletes in all sports who have achieved elite status, i.e. who are in receipt of a government grant?
The GAA would seem to have an awful lot of elite athletes.
Is Conleth Gilligan an elite athlete?
Where do you want me to start - with Brian Cullen or just keep it Ulster?
Just answer the two questions.
FWIW, Bryan Cullen is not an elite athlete.
Look at the infrastructure of rugby and soccer to see the consequences of pay-for-play.
To collate all bursary awardees i could do but it'll take time. Sure even James Colgan recieved a cheque for excellence at the last Ulster writers' awards.
Elite to me is playing county football. You have 2000-3000 playing decent level football in Derry or Antrim or Tyrone. The 30 players who make the county panel are elite. What you are intimating is a personal valued/barstool judgement. He'd run rings around you.....
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:57:06 PM
Elite to me is playing county football. You have 2000-3000 playing decent level football in Derry or Antrim or Tyrone. The 30 players who make the county panel are elite. What you are intimating is a personal valued/barstool judgement. He'd run rings around you.....
Elite players, maybe, but elite members of the GAA? No!
Quote from: ziggysego on December 07, 2007, 11:53:00 PM
Look at the infrastructure of rugby and soccer to see the consequences of pay-for-play.
Ach please stop Ziggy. We're nothing like, nor will be like, rugby or soccer. We'd ALL turn our backs on it if it went down that road. Trust Brennan and our authorities. It is not their intention.
Quote from: ziggysego on December 07, 2007, 11:58:41 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:57:06 PM
Elite to me is playing county football. You have 2000-3000 playing decent level football in Derry or Antrim or Tyrone. The 30 players who make the county panel are elite. What you are intimating is a personal valued/barstool judgement. He'd run rings around you.....
Elite players, maybe, but elite members of the GAA? No!
But it's to do with sporting achievement and the govn's recognition of it. Why should that affect your ethos as a club volunteer?
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:59:47 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on December 07, 2007, 11:53:00 PM
Look at the infrastructure of rugby and soccer to see the consequences of pay-for-play.
Ach please stop Ziggy. We're nothing like, nor will be like, rugby or soccer. We'd ALL turn our backs on it if it went down that road. Trust Brennan and our authorities. It is not their intention.
A little consession here and there and we'll soon be there.
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:57:06 PM
To collate all bursary awardees i could do but it'll take time. Sure even James Colgan recieved a cheque for excellence at the last Ulster writers' awards.
Elite to me is playing county football. You have 2000-3000 playing decent level football in Derry or Antrim or Tyrone. The 30 players who make the county panel are elite. What you are intimating is a personal valued/barstool judgement. He'd run rings around you.....
Please do collate said awardees. It's
received by the way.
Elite are the best of the best, of which there are about two in Ulster, O'Neill and Freeman. Not the journeymen that are Aidso Gallagher, Conleth Gilligan, Raymond Mulgrew and Francie Bellew et al.
Quote from: ONeill on December 08, 2007, 12:01:17 AM
Quote from: ziggysego on December 07, 2007, 11:58:41 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 07, 2007, 11:57:06 PM
Elite to me is playing county football. You have 2000-3000 playing decent level football in Derry or Antrim or Tyrone. The 30 players who make the county panel are elite. What you are intimating is a personal valued/barstool judgement. He'd run rings around you.....
Elite players, maybe, but elite members of the GAA? No!
But it's to do with sporting achievement and the govn's recognition of it. Why should that affect your ethos as a club volunteer?
For over a 100 years, everyone worked for the good of others within the GAA. We all had a level standing. Now in this material world, certain players feel they would be rewarded for that they do and what they do, is so much more than the rest of the GAA members.
QuoteFor the GPA and Mayo players among others to say that this has been discussed for the last 5 years is plain wrong. The vast majority of folk in the GAA never gave this issue serious thought up until such time as it was announced that the deal had been made.
Everyone knew that the grants issue was on the agenda but the GPA were forced to threaten a strike to get people to take this thing seriously. Why didn't the grassroots call meetings and mandate their delegates to get the GAA to deal with this situation? This is one of the things that bothers me, the GPA and the GAA should have been dealing with this along time go. Frustration within the GPA forced them to threaten strike action.
Many of you have used rowers as an example of athletes who deserve grants as much as GAA players. But I can't imagine the 'grassroots' of rowing kicking up a fuss about the government giving them money. If the government offered grant money to elite rowers (i.e. the top 5%) would you think that rowing would be professional in 5-10 years time or that these top rowers would be looking for significantly more money every 2-4 years? Would the lads who got up at 6 in the morning to coach these lads now think to themselves 'screw these Jonny big boots, if they are getting money and I'm not I'm outta here'. I'd doubt it, only in the GAA could people possibly begrudge fellow GAA members getting money out of the government. And why, because it creates an elite (that was already there) or because it's the first step to professionalism. Well no-one has yet explained to me how this could come about without widespread support from the GAA population. And before anyone says the grants came in without grassroots support, unlike that we'd have to pay for professionalism ourselves so that would need widespread agreement.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on December 08, 2007, 12:03:04 AM
Elite are the best of the best, of which there are about two in Ulster, O'Neill and Freeman. Not the journeymen that are Aidso Gallagher, Conleth Gilligan, Raymond Mulgrew and Francie Bellew et al.
That's elitest!
Quote from: ziggysego on December 08, 2007, 12:04:18 AM
For over a 100 years, everyone worked for the good of others within the GAA. We all had a level standing. Now in this material world, certain players feel they would be rewarded for that they do and what they do, is so much more than the rest of the GAA members.
Ziggy, this changes nothing. Those lucky enough to be blessed with the talent will now receive govn recognition (for 3 years at present). Are you saying that you would reconsider volunteering because the players you idolise/follow on the county scene may receive a holiday/E20 a week for being of such a higher standard, even though they put in the same effort as you for nowt at club level? So you were only volunteering because county players didn't get paid? I wonder who Greencastle paid in their march to All-Ireland glory in 2007? I'd be shocked if you believed they were whiter than white.
As usual, An Spailpin sums it up far better than i could ever dream of doing:
http://spailpin.blogspot.com/ (http://spailpin.blogspot.com/)
They've broken his heart on more than one occasion, but An Spailpín Fánach is proud of the Mayo County Board this happy, happy day.
An Spailpín has been worried since the weekend about the craven way the top cats of the GAA caved in to those carpet-bagging mercenaries in the GPA. But thank God there still beat true hearts in Erin – the Derry and Tyrone county boards have voted against the grant scheme, and now Mayo stands with them in the van of the Mother of All Battles for the very soul of the GAA. At the Mayo Board meeting last night, there wasn't one vote in favour of the disgraceful compromise offered by Central Council to rascality and schism, and it's all I can to hold back the tears of pride just thinking about it.
The Irish media has made a jellyfish look like Leonidas guarding the Pass of Thermopylae in the way they have utterly failed to question the motives and method of the GPA. In one way it's not surprising, because most writing on the GAA is so profoundly superficial that it's clear the writers have no idea about the soul of the organisation. Anyone that writes, in clear conscience, that Dublin filling Croke Park on big match days is the ne plus ultra of GAA life is like a dietician saying that Tayto is the cornerstone of a healthy diet. Causality is not these people's strong suit; to suggest that big crowds in the country's biggest stadium are a cause and not an effect in GAA reality is to fundamentally misunderstand the organisation, and it's a misunderstanding that could cost the organisation its very future.
It's not hard to project what will happen if the GPA get their way. The grants will only go to the top twelve counties, and the minnows can go whistle, as usual. As more money comes in the gap between the strong and weak counties will become more pronounced. Eventually, more and more money will come in, and that will result in mismatches being played in front of empty stadia. Motions will then be put to Congress to divide the Championship into A and B Championships, the A Championship for Sam, contested by the elite, and the B for the also-rans, who can play for the Ciarán Whelan Punchbowl, or some other trinket. Or else they'll continue the Championship, but they'll amalgamate and break up counties according to money and population-base. Then, in the Leinster Championship of 2025 or so, the crowds will assemble from all around at the Chicken Tonight Bowl, just two miles from the M50, to see the first big Championship clash of the summer, the Longford-Roscommon Corncrakes versus reigning Leinster Champions, the Finglas Firecats, presented in association with Diageo and Goodfellas Pizza.
Think it couldn't happen? It already has – in Wales. Rugby was in Wales what the GAA is still in Ireland, the heart and soul of a people. All the biographies of the great Welsh players of the 1970s contain a generic chapter about the hero – Gareth Edwards, Barry John, Gerald Davies, or whoever – coming home to find two suits from the professional Rugby League offering big money to play in the North of England, and someone's old granny saying "don't do it son, don't let down your heritage, don't let down the hwyl of ancient Cymru." And that's all ancient history now. Think I was messing about Longford-Roscommon earlier? What do you think the Neath-Swansea Ospreys are?
Tom Humphries signalled this exact parallel in the Irish Times four a half years ago, and Humphries was never a rugby man. But he met Cliff Morgan just when Wales were implementing the professional structures, and drew the frightening parallels.
The Welsh are victims of the fact that their game has an international dimension, and were therefore caught up in a tide not of their making. There is no international dimension to the GAA, bar those disgraceful junkets to Australia. The GAA is under no pressure from outside to professionalise, and here they are about to sign away their birthright for thirty Euro a week. And that's the other thing – at least the Welsh are swimming in a big enough pool to generate enough money from many sources. The GAA can only draw on money within the nation, and if you want to see what a professional league that can only access internal revenue looks like, well, take a peek at the League of Ireland. Thank God for Derry, Tyrone and Mayo that they have made this stand. We are at the precipice, but we can still go back.
Know this: the GPA is about pay for play. Anything about "fair deals" is all old chat that has no discrete meaning, and an attempt to sugar a very nasty pill, as members from counties outside the elite twelve are hopefully now coming to realise. Eugene McGee wrote in the Indo during the week that he was disappointed that the GPA wasn't looking out for the smaller counties. Since when did those boys show any sign of concern about smaller counties? I was surprised at Eugene.
It's time the jokers in GPA were called to account. I was on Noel Walsh's radio show on Northern Sound Radio this afternoon talking about this very topic, and I called on Dessie Farrell to put his money where his mouth is, and to debate the issue with me on Noel's show. And I'm not even anybody – I'm just a guy that likes keeping a blog. But I'm ready to get in the ring to see if I can find out what makes Dessie do it. After all, he's hardly a Gaelic player himself anymore, is he? What's in it for him. Is Dessie willing to take me on, or is Dessie a chicken at Christmas? Watch this space.
Quote from: ONeill on December 08, 2007, 12:14:56 AM
I wonder who Greencastle paid in their march to All-Ireland glory in 2007? I'd be shocked if you believed they were whiter than white.
I can assure you no-one was paid. The achievement itself was reward enough.
Darb
QuoteMany of you have used rowers as an example of athletes who deserve grants as much as GAA players. But I can't imagine the 'grassroots' of rowing kicking up a fuss about the government giving them money. If the government offered grant money to elite rowers (i.e. the top 5%) would you think that rowing would be professional in 5-10 years time or that these top rowers would be looking for significantly more money every 2-4 years?
Rowers don't have a massive organisation behind them so that's just a silly comparison.
I believe you honestly think that, Ziggy, but in terms of 'bringing' in guest motivationalists during your extended campaign I don't agree with you but don't want to discuss it here.
Well I can tell you this ONeill.
At the Greencastle Dinner Dance in January, we were privilaged to have Jarlath Burns as our Guest Speaker. After travelling a great distance to come to the Dinner Dance, he did not accept any money for attending. His reasons? He said it was not the GAA way of doing things.
He also took time out before coming to research a little about the club and some of the members. He was able to relay stories about members and the history of club. He did this off his own bat, nothing was supplied to him.
An SpailpinQuoteThe grants will only go to the top twelve counties, and the minnows can go whistle, as usual.
As pints would say, at this point I stopped reading. How can you continue to read someone who doesn't know that they're on about.
Quote from: ziggysego on December 08, 2007, 12:27:46 AM
Well I can tell you this ONeill.
At the Greencastle Dinner Dance in January, we were privilaged to have Jarlath Burns as our Guest Speaker. After travelling a great distance to come to the Dinner Dance, he did not accept any money for attending. His reasons? He said it was not the GAA way of doing things.
He also took time out before coming to research a little about the club and some of the members. He was able to relay stories about members and the history of club. He did this off his own bat, nothing was supplied to him.
Anyone could tell you that about Jarlath.
ONeill...are you involved regularly with any GAA clubs now that you live in Belfast? I find it hard to listen to the opinions of spectators to our games how contribute (apart from money) little to the GAA on a day to day basis. Unless you do, then I don't think you understand where people are coming from.
I know ONeill. My point being is, that Jarlath enbodies what the GAA is about.
Why is it a silly comparison POG? We apparently want to refuse government money because we just do it for the money. No other sports organisation would do this regardless of their size. Also can you give the pathway to professionalism if this grant is accepted, because I can't see it.
Quote from: theskull1 on December 08, 2007, 12:32:55 AM
ONeill...are you involved regularly with any GAA clubs now that you live in Belfast? I find it hard to listen to the opinions of spectators to our games how contribute (apart from money) little to the GAA on a day to day basis. Unless you do, then I don't think you understand where people are coming from.
I don't live in Belfast.
I assure you, every day of every month I'm contributing to our games, even at 12.24am tonight, (the reason i'm on gaaboard is cos I'm on the pc working on GAA stuff) and anyway, instead of imagining things, outline where you're coming from.
Quote from: darbyo on December 08, 2007, 12:34:29 AM
Why is it a silly comparison POG? We apparently want to refuse government money because we just do it for the money. No other sports organisation would do this regardless of their size. Also can you give the pathway to professionalism if this grant is accepted, because I can't see it.
It's a silly comparison because who are going to pay the rowers to be professional? - Or who could they put pressure on to go professional?
I can't really see the GAA going professional as such as the GAA just couldn't afford it but I do see this as a very slippery slope - .these players are handed a few thousand now, how many years do you think a few thousand will keep them happy?
Wasn't it Canavan who was on RTE talking about this being a good start?
I don't think the government will keep paying this money - I don't see how they can. A non gaa supporter in the south has every right to be upset - the GAA get a fair bit of funding and now their players are going to handed money that frankly the GAA could afford to pay. The players will look towards the GAA if this money is pulled or if they want a rise that isn't forthcoming from the government and a precedent of pay for play will have been set - the GAA will have no argument. Btw, do I trust the hierarchy to protect the GAA? Do I f**k! You just need to look at how this was pushed through, everyone expected the GAA to say no and now we're taken by surprise.
Ten years down the line, we'll find ourselves with a generation of players who don't know what it's like not to be paid.
Do you think their demands will stop at 2 or 3 grand each?
Quote from: ONeill on December 08, 2007, 12:37:50 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on December 08, 2007, 12:32:55 AM
ONeill...are you involved regularly with any GAA clubs now that you live in Belfast? I find it hard to listen to the opinions of spectators to our games how contribute (apart from money) little to the GAA on a day to day basis. Unless you do, then I don't think you understand where people are coming from.
I don't live in Belfast.
I assure you, every day of every month I'm contributing to our games, even at 12.24am tonight, (the reason i'm on gaaboard is cos I'm on the pc working on GAA stuff) and anyway, instead of imagining things, outline where you're coming from.
Oh? a townland nearby then?
anyway
I coming from the position that there is a beauty in believing that when you are playing your part, that everyone else is doing it for the same reason and that is to be part of a great cultural orginistaion and want nothing more than to play their part and see all volunteers as equals. Introducing payments like this to IC players corrupts my perspective. Whenever greed enters the playing arena then that beauty will be shattered forever. The GPA already sicken me. Some might say that I'm over romanticizing things but with a few drinks these things happen :)
QuoteI coming from the position that there is a beauty in believing that when you are playing your part, that everyone else is doing it for the same reason and that is to be part of a great cultural orginistaion and want nothing more
Now it's my turn to ask, are you involved in GAA at all? Sounds like you've no concept of the reality of managerialship or player-whoring since the 1990s.
I do think that the points made about limitting the amount of training IC squads do will have to be given serious consideration. Amateur players training like professionals i obviously having too much of an impact on the lives of top players in this county. Can anyone think of how this could be monitored/controlled? It's hard to see how it could be done practically but I think it needs to be looked at.
Quote from: ONeill on December 08, 2007, 01:05:48 AM
QuoteI coming from the position that there is a beauty in believing that when you are playing your part, that everyone else is doing it for the same reason and that is to be part of a great cultural orginistaion and want nothing more
Now it's my turn to ask, are you involved in GAA at all? Sounds like you've no concept of the reality of managerialship or player-whoring since the 1990s.
Do you think I would ask such questions if I wasn't? :-\
Player whoring...please explain
Quote from: ONeill on December 08, 2007, 12:37:50 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on December 08, 2007, 12:32:55 AM
ONeill...are you involved regularly with any GAA clubs now that you live in Belfast? I find it hard to listen to the opinions of spectators to our games how contribute (apart from money) little to the GAA on a day to day basis. Unless you do, then I don't think you understand where people are coming from.
I don't live in Belfast.
I assure you, every day of every month I'm contributing to our games, even at 12.24am tonight, (the reason i'm on gaaboard is cos I'm on the pc working on GAA stuff) and anyway, instead of imagining things, outline where you're coming from.
:D
I think we all know where you're coming from O'Neill and it ain't from the position of an ordinary club volunteer.
I won't beyond the common knowledge that certain inter-county players were plying their trade for clubs outside of their county of birth and 'job location' had little to do with it.
But sure the utopia is still a carrot....
POG, with respect you haven't answered my question at all you've just peddled the doomsday scenario, which is nothing more than your opinion of what might happen in the future. I by in large, support this grant because the government are paying it and it brings GAA players in line with other elite team sport athletes (i.e. the tax breaks). But I'm totally against professionalism as, clearly, are 99% of the GAA.
So lets say some day in the future the govt. stop paying the grant and IC players demand the GAA take over the payment. But now they say we want €20,000 per player, well if that happens then I'd tell them go f**k yourselves. Not because we are all equal in the GAA (we are not) but because this would entail such a seismic shift in the GAA and how it functions as to destroy the GAA and what the GAA represents. So again I ask how can the GAA ever go professional against the wishes of the vast majority of members? Unlike rugby we don't have to go with the international flow and unlike domestic soccer in this country we don't have to compete with professional teams in other counties. So the only reason we will go professional is if we as an organisation want to go professional. It can't be forced upon us because as many of ye have pointed out, if the top players want to walk we can replace them.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 08, 2007, 01:12:07 AM
Quote from: ONeill on December 08, 2007, 12:37:50 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on December 08, 2007, 12:32:55 AM
ONeill...are you involved regularly with any GAA clubs now that you live in Belfast? I find it hard to listen to the opinions of spectators to our games how contribute (apart from money) little to the GAA on a day to day basis. Unless you do, then I don't think you understand where people are coming from.
I don't live in Belfast.
I assure you, every day of every month I'm contributing to our games, even at 12.24am tonight, (the reason i'm on gaaboard is cos I'm on the pc working on GAA stuff) and anyway, instead of imagining things, outline where you're coming from.
:D
I think we all know where you're coming from O'Neill and it ain't from the position of an ordinary club volunteer.
There's bound to be a thread somewhere about women and how to woo them in the non-gaa for you.
Quote from: ONeill on December 08, 2007, 01:13:23 AM
I won't beyond the common knowledge that certain inter-county players were plying their trade for clubs outside of their county of birth and 'job location' had little to do with it.
But sure the utopia is still a carrot....
Yeah...you can't legislate for individuals who don't possesses the values of the GAA and abuse the system to gain financially. Thats a bit different than what I am taking about
Yes utopia is a carrot for me actually
O'Neill
QuoteI won't beyond the common knowledge that certain inter-county players were plying their trade for clubs outside of their county of birth and 'job location' had little to do with it.
But sure the utopia is still a carrot....
True, and how many of these players are there compared to those who stick with their club through thick and thin?
I take it you're criticising these players, so would I, but you want to hand them a couple of thousand.
Darbyo
QuotePOG, with respect you haven't answered my question at all you've just peddled the doomsday scenario, which is nothing more than your opinion of what might happen in the future.
You asked how we seen this turning into professionalism and although I said I couldn't see professionalism I pointed out what I felt would happen. It is a doomday scenario and I've tried to keep that out of the arguments against the grants but why don't you tell me how you see it all turning out? Players stick to 2-3 grand forever and be happy, government pay it forever, everyone happy?
QuoteBut now they say we want €20,000 per player, well if that happens then I'd tell them go f**k yourselves.
I'm sorry I don't have as much faith as that, as I said earlier, we will then have a generation of players and probably a generation of young members who don't know anything but players being paid and giving them money the GAA can afford will not be a big deal because they've been paid for the last 10, 15 etc years.
POG I've already outlined how I see it broadly developing, but I basically see it like this, as long as the govt. are paying the amount will be an issue for the GPA and the govt. So if the govt. are still paying the grant in 5 years time and the GPA want it increased in line with inflation then that is an issue between the two bodies and little to do with the GAA. If the govt. in 5 years time say that we're not paying this anymore (downturn in the economy etc.) then the GPA don't have too much recourse to ask the GAA to foot the bill. It was a govt. grant for elite sports men just like the tax breaks for professional sports people in this country. The economy is gone belly up so the govt. can't pay it anymore, tough break. If the govt. gave a grant or tax break to all volunteers of sports organisations but when the economy took a turn for the worst it stopped doing so I don't think people would look to there local club to now pay that same amount. I think they'd say 'well that was nice while it lasted but sure it was only a few hundred a year' and get on with it.
Sorry if I'm rambling a bit but I'm too tired to recheck all I've written, the point I'm making is that IC players are no different to me or you. They don't want the GAA to destroy itself and as a result I don't believe they would push the orgainisation into that situation, what's more I don't think they have the power to.
I wonder if it passes Central Council tomorrow, will Brennan's reaction resemble this gentleman's views:
(http://www.toytowngermany.com/munich/chamberlain-munich-conference-1938.jpg)
Quote from: darbyo on December 08, 2007, 01:44:33 AM
POG I've already outlined how I see it broadly developing, but I basically see it like this, as long as the govt. are paying the amount will be an issue for the GPA and the govt. So if the govt. are still paying the grant in 5 years time and the GPA want it increased in line with inflation then that is an issue between the two bodies and little to do with the GAA. If the govt. in 5 years time say that we're not paying this anymore (downturn in the economy etc.) then the GPA don't have too much recourse to ask the GAA to foot the bill. It was a govt. grant for elite sports men just like the tax breaks for professional sports people in this country. The economy is gone belly up so the govt. can't pay it anymore, tough break. If the govt. gave a grant or tax break to all volunteers of sports organisations but when the economy took a turn for the worst it stopped doing so I don't think people would look to there local club to now pay that same amount. I think they'd say 'well that was nice while it lasted but sure it was only a few hundred a year' and get on with it.
Sorry if I'm rambling a bit but I'm too tired to recheck all I've written, the point I'm making is that IC players are no different to me or you. They don't want the GAA to destroy itself and as a result I don't believe they would push the orgainisation into that situation, what's more I don't think they have the power to.
Just for the sake of arguing darbyo (as I disagree with this all on principle) but, how would you feel if someone took away a couple of thousand euro from your salary and gave you the same explanation? Would you be that enthused coming into work the next day? The reality is that the players will get used to it and expect it and be demotivated if they don't get it. Is it so outlandish to suggest that another GPA strike would be in the offing so as to get the GAA to pony up in such circumstances?
Once the greed culture would set in with IC players.....it would be nigh on impossible to get rid of it.
What time is the meeting at or what time can we expect a result?
QuoteJust for the sake of arguing darbyo (as I disagree with this all on principle) but, how would you feel if someone took away a couple of thousand euro from your salary and gave you the same explanation? Would you be that enthused coming into work the next day? The reality is that the players will get used to it and expect it and be demotivated if they don't get it. Is it so outlandish to suggest that another GPA strike would be in the offing so as to get the GAA to pony up in such circumstances?
The government is giving this money to elite GAA players in line with the tax breaks that other top level sports people get. Are you saying that if the country took a turn for the worse and the government tightened the belt by removing these tax breaks and stopping the grant, that IC county players and professional soccer and rugby players would 'down tools'? Can you imagine Brian O'Driscoll making a bee line for the IRFU looking for the equivalent money if the tax break was halted? I can't, neither can I see GAA players turning around to the GAA and demanding that they pony up. You are attempting to paint IC players as money mad, selfish, and insensitive to everyone else, and all because they have looked for the government to treat them as they do other elite field sports men in this country.
The money is so small as to barely matter to any player, of course you'd rather have an extra 2K but the government also used to give 3K to first time buyers, but when I got my house it was gone. What did people do? They just got on with it because this type of thing happens. If my employer took 3K off my paycheck that would be different but your wage and a government grant are very different things.
I don't think the players are greedy at all, like most other people if the govt. give them money they'll take it. Why would players strike against the GAA if the government stops paying them? And even if they did they'd lose as no-one supports pay for play, and the players are not going to give up their IC careers over €800-2.5K.
I respect many of you are concerned about where this could bring the GAA. But I really believe you have convinced yourselves that this can only end in disaster and therefore are incapable of seeing any other future. Not one person has yet to come on here and articulate how this doomsday scenario is going to play out. If one of you could satisfactorily answer this question I might see how professionalism could be a reality one day. How can an amateur organisation go professional against the wishes of the vast majority of members? How can this happen when members from the very top to the very bottom are against this and professionalism could only happen after the whole organisation got to vote on it?
This "the money is small" argument is ridiculous. How small could this money be in 10 years time? This is the thin end of a pay-for-play/ semi-professionalism wedge.
At the end of the day the money is taxable by the revenue which will in time lead to a Bosman stiuation where players could move county at will.
The GAA membership were never consulted about this agreement whereby county boards are being asked to pay players a grant in direct contravention of Rule 11. So basically Nickey Brennan is asking GAA members to break the rules of the association.
If the central council reject these proposals(which they should) then let the GPA dish out the government money themselves if they wish. But the GAA should have no involvement in this business whatsoever.
QuoteThis "the money is small" argument is ridiculous. How small could this money be in 10 years time? This is the thin end of a pay-for-play/ semi-professionalism wedge.
At the end of the day the money is taxable by the revenue which will in time lead to a Bosman stiuation where players could move county at will.
No it's not ridiculous, what I said is factually correct, your argument is ridiculous simply because it is your opinion of what might happen in the future. It has no basis in fact at all, it can't do because you are taking about the future. And players can move county as it is, Thomas Walsh anyone? Debate this issue on facts not on physic premonitions.
QuoteDarbyo, if they are not money mad then they are certainly being lead by an individual who is money mad. They did threaten to down tools if they did not get this sum of money, so they have already set the precedent of threatening to down tools over a small sum.
Yes but this was done to focus minds and it worked. But if they were to strike over the GAA taking up the slack then they'd be on their own. In fact I think many players wouldn't support a leadership who went this route. And still no-one has answered the question I have posed. If anyone is going to argue that this will lead to pay for play then, for them to be taken seriously, they must have an idea of how it could come to pass.
Thomas Walsh's transfer - was it led or at least influenced by money ??
QuoteHow can an amateur organisation go professional against the wishes of the vast majority of members?
They are ready to introduce grants against the wishes of the vast majority of members - excuse me if I don't have as much faith as you.
Whatever the reasons for TW transfer is just proves that players can already move for various reasons, this grant won't change things in that regard. POG, firstly the wishes of the majority haven't been established, secondly you can't be comparing the grants to professionalism.
Again I ask, who will force through professionalism and how can they do so when at least one rule will need to change and for that to happen 2/3 of the membership have to vote for it. So one last time with feeling, by what mechanism can professionalism come into the GAA unless the vast majority of members want it to?
The mechanism which the GPA believe that this can come about is by that word STRIKE !
Is that your answer? I'm sorry lads but if that's the best you can come up with then it appears ye have no idea of what you're talking about. Your arguement seems to have boiled down to, 'I know what's going to happen in the future, how do I know?...I just do'
QuotePOG, firstly the wishes of the majority haven't been established, secondly you can't be comparing the grants to professionalism.
Again I ask, who will force through professionalism and how can they do so when at least one rule will need to change and for that to happen 2/3 of the membership have to vote for it. So one last time with feeling, by what mechanism can professionalism come into the GAA unless the vast majority of members want it to?
I think we all know who's the majority.
What's to say a 20 euro a week grant doesn't become a **** euro a week grant with people claiming it isn't professionalism?
I know it's the worst possible scenario but we have to protect ourselves against that - the idea that "it'll never happen" will be useless if it does happen. You are basing on views of what will happen 10 years down the line if we have our current membership with the current attitude - we might not have that! As I said, we'll have a generation of members and players who are use to county players being handed cheques.
Again from orchardcounty...
DUFFY'S BACKING FOR GRANTS SCHEME
The player grants scheme has received a major boost ahead of today's (Saturday 8th December) crunch Central Council meeting with the GAA's incoming director general Paraic Duffy expressing his support for it.
Despite opposition in some quarters, the scheme is expected to be rubberstamped by Central Council before the finer details can be thrashed out.
Speaking at Thursday night's Monaghan convention, at which he was guest of honour, Duffy assured delegates that the proposed funding does not affect the GAA's amateur status, nor will it impact on other Government funding.
However, he warned other issues could affect the Association's amateur status like "paying managers and coaches and not letting on."
The Scotstown clubman added that the money is "recognition by the State of the work that inter-county players put in and should not and cannot be regarded as pay for play".
Why does he call it "work"?
IMHO the big deal here is the threatened STRIKE
If the grants are given out starting now & ending in 3 years what is going to happen after this time-frame?
Does pro-grant supporters honestly think in 3 years time players are going to be happy if no money is forthcoming or even if the same amount is given out again?
In 9 years time I dont think 'elite' players will settle for 2k euro
What then?
Previous experience tells us a strike will be called again - so in essence when GPA/players demands arent met IC games are stopped
To me this is the start of a slippery slope
Just read this on Hogan Stand. Think the author sums up the majority view againtst the "awards" formally know as grants
QuoteThe Future That's Ahead Of Us: An Email From a Limerick Rugby Man
I read Mark Conway's article in the Irish Independent today. He makes some excellent points. I am not what you would consider a GAA man. I go to the Limerick games, but I am a rugby player. What the GAA have done now is what rugby did 10 years ago.
Ten years ago, at twenty years of age, I played in a thriving club scene. Then clubs started paying players. So players migrated to the clubs that paid the better money. To compete, other clubs increased the amount they paid and the circle went on until the clubs went bankrupt and every volunteer a club had stopped working for the club. "Why should I do the club draw/mark the pitches/wash the jerseys/man the bar/coach the team/etc for nothing when so-and-so is getting £50 for playing on a Saturday?"
Club rugby is dead in Ireland. We have an elite of 30 rugby players in Ireland, there are 98 other professionals who fill the gaps. No-one plays club anymore. Clubs who fielded 8 adult teams ten years ago, struggle to field 3 now. There are numerous reasons for this, but one is definitely professionalism. Most clubs are now two clubs within a club - the paid first team and the rest. The rest wonder why they bother.
I played on the first team in three clubs (I moved as I moved cities for work). I was offered pay in all. My parish club in Limerick, whose games I attended since I was old enough to go and watch my dad and for whom my only childhood ambition was to play on the first XV, wanted to pay me for what I loved doing.
I played on a team with my three brothers, for my parish, representing my family and my community. This is the 'place' Mark talks about. This is sport and there is no greater feeling that this - the feeling you belong and that you are wearing a jersey your father wore, that you are only minding it to pass on to the next generation.
My heroes where the guys who played on the first team before me. They coached and supported me now. How could I take pay for play when they didn't? How could I look them in the eye? I couldn't and refused the money.
And whilst we are on sacrifice - I trained six days a week and played two games a week (college and club) - I trained twice a day some days and at least once a day at the time. But it wasn't sacrifice, I loved it. I preferred playing than working in a bar earning pocket money.
If you don't love it, don't do it. Someone else will gladly take your place. If it's money you want, take an extra job. As a first team player (or county player), you are in the most privileged position in your sport. Everyone wants to swap places with you. Everyone wants what you have.
And you are only minding that jersey, hanging onto it as long as you can. Cos a hell of a lot went before you, a hell of a lot more will come after you. It's only the efforts of everyone that has helped put you in that position (starting with your parents and the coaches you had in your club since you started).
I admire the GAA greatly. I'd urge that you don't go down the pay for play route. You have something very special in your organisation.
Keep it.
J , Galway Ireland , 07/12/2007 at 16:06
QuoteI think we all know who's the majority.
No we don't. The people who make the most noise aren't necessarily the majority.
QuoteWhat's to say a 20 euro a week grant doesn't become a **** euro a week grant with people claiming it isn't professionalism?
If the government want to give them a €80,000 per year grant then fine, but they won't. If players ever get a living wage off someone it will have to be the GAA but that can't happen unless we want it to.
QuoteYou are basing on views of what will happen 10 years down the line if we have our current membership with the current attitude - we might not have that! As I said, we'll have a generation of members and players who are use to county players being handed cheques.
I don't know what age you are POG but I have at least 30 years (hopefully) of invovement in the GAA to come. Most people of a similar age to me that I have spoken to don't agree with professionalism, so there will be plenty of opponents for the foreseeable future. Anyway the only people that will get used to getting checks are the IC players who make up only a small amount of the GAA. And when they retire they stop getting checks so I don't think most retired IC player of 10 years will be pushing for professioalism for the next generation.
QuoteI know it's the worst possible scenario but we have to protect ourselves against that - the idea that "it'll never happen" will be useless if it does happen.
It can only happen if we as an organisation vote for it to happen and if we do that, then that is the democratic wish of our organisation. And still no-one has put down how professionalism can possibly be forced upon the GAA without being voted upon by the majority. Unless some-one can do that, then all you are doing is engaging in the worst form of debating tactic - unfounded scarmongering.
I agree with my fellow Countyman RedBlack and others pro the grants for the following reasons:
1. The genie is out of the bottle regarding payments and we can't turn the clock back. I know of a Connaght county manager 4-6 yrs ago who was on €70,000, an Ulster county trainer who was on £30,000 3-4 yrs ago, a Down Jnr club mgr who gets £250.00/week. Where were the meetings in the Elk and the massive outcry over the last 10yrs? Its easy to attack the players - but not the older influential ex-AI winners/admin men/businessmen etc. Rules will always be bent in the pursuit of success
2. I know an Irish League player - top 4 team. He trains twice a week, plays on a Sat. He can eat and drink what he likes. Our countymen get dropped from the squad if they are seen in the pub. For 6-8 months othe year they are on eating plans, weights etc etc. They train as hard as professional palyers in England - yet they aren't shown enough appreciation in my view.
3. Rugby has had a problem with professionalism regarding the effect on clubs. But i's not a fair analogy. Gaelic games are rooted in the parish clubs, there aren't generally transfers, they aren't going to be na influx of French/English/Argentinian players. Gaelic games will survive.
4. They waved a tenner about in theElk - " grant is the same as pay for play". What about University bursaries then? I presume Conway and his mates will be calling for them to be scrapped too - or maybe they is a get out clause here?
5. Some posters tell the GAA to restrict County training nights so that players aren't burnt out etc. Get real it won't happen!
Look after the players - I don't go to watch the man who cuts the grass, wash the kit (which I do), sell ballots or write referees reports
Quote from: lecale4 on December 08, 2007, 01:40:31 PM5. Some posters tell the GAA to restrict County training nights so that players aren't burnt out etc. Get real it won't happen!
Why not?
QuoteSo do you think the grants should be issued without the approval of the membership?
Sorry I didn't see it, but yes I do, because this is clearly government money. Now I think it should be ideally distributed by the government or the Sports council, or Croke Park if that is not possible. But at the end of the day this is clearly a government grant, who hands it over is somewhat irrelevant. For example if I was to act as the intermedery for this money and the government stopped paying it I don't think anyone would feel I'm now obliged to continue paying the players, why should it be any different if the GAA hands out the cheques. Not every decision has to be ratified by the grassroots, why should we have a say in whether the government gives a small grant to players, if the GAA are paying them then that's a different matter. POG why would the GAA want to top them up?
QuoteQuote
1. The genie is out of the bottle regarding payments and we can't turn the clock back. I know of a Connaght county manager 4-6 yrs ago who was on €70,000, an Ulster county trainer who was on £30,000 3-4 yrs ago, a Down Jnr club mgr who gets £250.00/week. Where were the meetings in the Elk and the massive outcry over the last 10yrs? Its easy to attack the players - but not the older influential ex-AI winners/admin men/businessmen etc. Rules will always be bent in the pursuit of success
Two wrongs don't make a right.
In a few years time Darybo we'll be listening to similar arguments like this with regards to the players.
I agree with you here POG and I don't think under the table payments to managers is relevant in this discussion. Now I have answered the question put to me. Unless someone can answer the question I have posed then I can't see how you can continue arguing unless it's one the basis of 'I'm right because I know I am'
You've changed your tune Lecale!
A while back you were against grants & heading up to Toome!
Quote from: darbyo on December 08, 2007, 12:44:05 PM
Is that your answer? I'm sorry lads but if that's the best you can come up with then it appears ye have no idea of what you're talking about. Your arguement seems to have boiled down to, 'I know what's going to happen in the future, how do I know?...I just do'
Soccer and Rugby started off at small money.....look at them now.
I firmly believe the GPA are here for the money and nothing more. Granted, through their lobbying, general conditions for GAA players have improved whereby there is a standard which should be applied across the board for all intercounty players regarding their treatment. But this is putting money in their pockets for playing the game. Simple as that.
I won't go through all the reasons why we should keep the game amateur but this grant is the end of amateurism and requires a rule change. The only place that can grant a rule change is congress and, whatever about opening Croker, changing the amateur status will never happen.
Read Rule 11 and you will have to agree with me
QuoteSorry I didn't see it, but yes I do, because this is clearly government money. Now I think it should be ideally distributed by the government or the Sports council, or Croke Park if that is not possible. But at the end of the day this is clearly a government grant, who hands it over is somewhat irrelevant. For example if I was to act as the intermedery for this money and the government stopped paying it I don't think anyone would feel I'm now obliged to continue paying the players, why should it be any different if the GAA hands out the cheques. Not every decision has to be ratified by the grassroots, why should we have a say in whether the government gives a small grant to players, if the GAA are paying them then that's a different matter. POG why would the GAA want to top them up?
Well you try telling that to Dessie & co.
Not every decision has to be ratified by one as massive as this one does.
Why would the GAA top them up?
I've no idea why would the GAA want to distribute them or entertain the idea?
I think looking into the future and considering what might occur is only a minor point in the argument against them.
QuotePOG it seems to me to be the major point. What is the problem with the GPA if you don't think they are trying to force professionalism on the GAA, and how can they do this? My opinion is they are not trying to force professionalism through but more importantly they can't. Many here disagree with me on the first point but none of ye have addressed my second point.
The problems with the GAA is thon **** Dessie launching personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with them not to mention their attempts to bully the GAA with attempts to strike. I've no doubt they are trying to force pay for play - why was Canavan talking about this being a good start? - answer me that.
I don't know how they plan to force it - I don't trust that x years down the line our membership will have the same attitude towards professionalism that they have today or maybe Dessie and co will threaten to strike every time they don't get what they want.
IMHO the GAA have come to a Crossroads in the last few years. We've a growing divide between club and county, we've developed this lip service attitude towards clubs. We expect more and more of the county players, and club players to a lesser extent, with regard to training and commitment and lately there seems to be also this attitude developing that the county players are public property with regard to negative media attention and criticism.
Now we can either address these issues and take a step back or we can take what is a easier solution and hand them a few thousand euro and ignore the problems.
btw I don't really think the players know what they are letting themselves in for because any protection they had as amateurs are now gone. If they receive tax payers money that's it, they are public property - they can be criticised from the stands or on RTE, there movements reported in the papers etc, that's it!
QuoteThe problems with the GAA is thon **** Dessie launching personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with them not to mention their attempts to bully the GAA with attempts to strike. I've no doubt they are trying to force pay for play - why was Canavan talking about this being a good start? - answer me that.
I agree entirely that Dessie has made some awful public utterences and I'd question his ability to lead the GPA. On the point about Canavan, well interestingly, I was speaking to an inter county player recently and he said the exact same thing. When I get the chance I'll try to get him elaborate on this. But it still comes back to how it can be forced upon the GAA, and my point is, it can't.
QuoteI don't trust that x years down the line our membership will have the same attitude towards professionalism that they have today or maybe Dessie and co will threaten to strike every time they don't get what they want.
I'm afraid that isn't much of an argument POG, if the GAA decide democratically at some future point that they want to go professional then so be it, it isn't for you or I to make decisions for future generations of GAA people. Fortunately I don't see it ever happening for numerous reasons, not least among them is it would require a complete overhaul of GAA structures. If the GPA threatened strike action to force the GAA down a path it didn't want to go, they would lose. Unless someone can show me how the doomsday scenario being predicted could come to pass, then people need to look at things again and question where you are going with all this. The direction of the GAA shouldn't be driven by emotion or unfounded fear, rather well thought out rational decision making.
QuoteI don't trust that x years down the line our membership will have the same attitude towards professionalism that they have today or maybe Dessie and co will threaten to strike every time they don't get what they want.
I'm afraid that isn't much of an argument POG, if the GAA decide democratically at some future point that they want to go professional then so be it, it isn't for you or I to make decisions for future generations of GAA people. Fortunately I don't see it ever happening for numerous reasons, not least among them is it would require a complete overhaul of GAA structures. If the GPA threatened strike action to force the GAA down a path it didn't want to go, they would lose. Unless someone can show me how the doomsday scenario being predicted could come to pass, then people need to look at things again and question where you are going with all this. The direction of the GAA shouldn't be driven by emotion or unfounded fear, rather well thought out rational decision making.
Everything has consequences we must consider.
I don't understand how anyone can say that these grants aren't pay for play - if you get anything above expenses it's pay, no matter who's paying it.
The GAA will probably never be professional as it just couldn't afford it but 10 years down the line, when Croker is paid for etc it may be able to afford county players to go semi professional. Those in the GAA who will argue against this will have very little argument if the grants go through. Look how illegal payments to managers and student grants are being used by your camp in this argument!
I realise it's a doomsday scenario and if I made a list of reasons for me being against the grants what will happen in the future would be a bottom of it but it must be considered.
btw, it's interesting that a county player said to you that the grants were a good start and Canavan has said it - does that sound to you like people who, if they government pull the plug on them in 12 months, will say "oh well it was nice while it lasted"?
Didn't the 'agreement' state the county boards would be involved in the distribution of grants? Or are they merely trying to paper over the cracks? Either way we've been betrayed.
QuoteThe GAA will probably never be professional as it just couldn't afford it but 10 years down the line, when Croker is paid for etc it may be able to afford county players to go semi professional. Those in the GAA who will argue against this will have very little argument if the grants go through.
Why? a grant from the government and a wage from the GAA are two very different things.
QuoteLook how illegal payments to managers and student grants are being used by your camp in this argument!
there being used by everyone, just in different ways and personally I have no real problem with any of them.
QuoteI realise it's a doomsday scenario and if I made a list of reasons for me being against the grants what will happen in the future would be a bottom of it but it must be considered.
Care to put that list on here as I'm finding it hard to see what the problem is if it isn't a fear of professionalism.
Quotebtw, it's interesting that a county player said to you that the grants were a good start and Canavan has said it - does that sound to you like people who, if they government pull the plug on them in 12 months, will say "oh well it was nice while it lasted"?
I found that quite disconcerting myself, but I think todays announcement answers that....
Quotethe GPA has also formally agreed and accepted that the GAA has no responsibility in providing any future funding for Awards/Grants.
Besides they can't force us to pay unless a majority of the GAA want to. So what they want and what they'll get might be two very different things.
Ratification of the grants scheme was unanimous at today's central council meeting. not a single dissenting voice. not surprising considering cc initially passed this scheme in february. funds will be distributed centrally.
What a sad day for the GAA - pay for play introduced and democracy is dead in the organisation.
Two of the greatest qualities of the GAA gone, well done to all those concerned.
Replys:
Re-burn out - the GAA won't be able to enforce restricting individual county training becuase Mr Conway and his mates in Club Tyrone would crack up if the county was being dictated to by Croke Park - in their pursuit of an AI
Re-Lecale2 - different man
Re-Irish League - you can quote soccer when it suits your argument - when it doesn't then its irrelevant! Be consistent
Payment to managers and trainers is not irrevelent - its been going on for years, everybody knows about it, a lot of those at the Elk are in clubs that condone it and brush it under the table, and if one set of participants are getting paid (and always will) why souldn't the players get looked after?
Let me ask you one simple question pog. Don't get hysterical or deviate from this narrow area:
If the gpa as body had applied for and achieved government funding for a training grant aid scheme and the government paid them the monies directly to distribute amonst their membership, would you disapprove?
Quote
If the gpa as body had applied for and achieved government funding for a training grant aid scheme and the government paid them the monies directly to distribute amonst their membership, would you disapprove?
I am against individual members receiving monies for anything other than expenses.
QuoteRatification of the grants scheme was unanimous at today's central council meeting. not a single dissenting voice.
btw, where did you pick this up from?
as this grant is the government's contribution towards the recognised monetary, time and commitment costs of preparation, then you'd have no problem?
Quoteas this grant is the government's contribution towards the recognised monetary, time commitment costs of preparation, then you'd have no problem?
it's not, the gaa takes care of players expenses.
You never answered my second question.
Well The government define that as the critera for these grants. So who's right, you or the government?
The government can say whatever they want - the gaa pays players expenses, how can more money be expenses?
third time, where did you pick this up from?
QuoteRatification of the grants scheme was unanimous at today's central council meeting. not a single dissenting voice.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 08, 2007, 05:12:19 PM
The government can say whatever they want - the gaa pays players expenses, how can more money be expenses?
Obviously the Government, having professional people to deal with these things, feel the gaa don't adequately meet their responsibilities towards their IC players.
But you're probably right.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 08, 2007, 05:12:19 PM
third time, where did you pick this up from?
Anyone interested can find these things out. that meeting ended hours ago.
Quote
Obviously the Government, having professional people to deal with these things, feel the gaa don't adequately meet their responsibilities towards their IC players.
In what areas do you think the GAA don't adequately meet players expenses?
Don't you think it would be better for the GPA to address these issues with the GAA (and I'm sure everyone would support them) rather than run and look money from the sports council?
QuoteAnyone interested can find these things out. that meeting ended hours ago.
So you made it up. Fair enough.
From the BBC NI Website:
Council approves GAA grants plan
The GAA's Central Council has approved the scheme which will see inter-county footballers and hurlers get financial assistance from the government.
However, GAA chiefs have said that county boards will not have to distribute the money to players.
Instead they plan to set up a central system for paying out the cash.
On the disciplinary front, the scheme for ticking players is to be scrapped next year and replacements will be allowed for players booked twice.
For offences of rough play or unsporting behaviour, players must be directly sidelined but their team can send on a replacement.
However, a replacement will not be permitted for immediate red card offences.
The rule changes will come into operation after the GAA's annual Congress in April 2008.
In relation to the grants issue, opponents expressed concern that players receiving cash could threaten the GAA's amateur status.
In response, the Central Council asked for the following ammendment to be included in the agreement:
All parties recognise that the GAA is an amateur association and state their absolute commitment to the maintenance of the amateur status of the Association. They state that nothing in this agreement shall be allowed to undermine the amateur status of Gaelic games.
QuoteI can't understand your logic here at all Darby, if congress decides these grants should not be distributed in the manner thusfar decided, then that decision has to be respected, you even state in another post that if the majority vote to go professional that must be respected.
I agree Bogball, if congress voted that no unit of the GAA should distribute the money then I would respect that. But because this is a government grant given to IC players and not GAA money, could the sports council, for example, not simply post out the cheques to the various players. In other words the players are still entitled to the money whether we want to give it to them or not. So a vote in congress could only be about whether we distribute the money or some other body does. As a result I'm not sure why we should have a vote over this, but by all means go ahead with it if that is what is wanted.
I will always support the majority view even if I don't agree with it but I don't think a congressional vote will change anything what ever the result. But I fear it may cause a greater divide than is already there.
QuoteI agree Bogball, if congress voted that no unit of the GAA should distribute the money then I would respect that. But because this is a government grant given to IC players and not GAA money, could the sports council, for example, not simply post out the cheques to the various players. In other words the players are still entitled to the money whether we want to give it to them or not. So a vote in congress could only be about whether we distribute the money or some other body does. As a result I'm not sure why we should have a vote over this, but by all means go ahead with it if that is what is wanted.
I will always support the majority view even if I don't agree with it but I don't think a congressional vote will change anything what ever the result. But I fear it may cause a greater divide than is already there.
The Sports Council won't distribute the money.
I don't think it's just about who sends out the cheques, had the GAA not also to agree to who got how much?
Quote from: darbyo on December 08, 2007, 06:08:44 PM
QuoteI can't understand your logic here at all Darby, if congress decides these grants should not be distributed in the manner thusfar decided, then that decision has to be respected, you even state in another post that if the majority vote to go professional that must be respected.
I agree Bogball, if congress voted that no unit of the GAA should distribute the money then I would respect that. But because this is a government grant given to IC players and not GAA money, could the sports council, for example, not simply post out the cheques to the various players. In other words the players are still entitled to the money whether we want to give it to them or not. So a vote in congress could only be about whether we distribute the money or some other body does. As a result I'm not sure why we should have a vote over this, but by all means go ahead with it if that is what is wanted.
I will always support the majority view even if I don't agree with it but I don't think a congressional vote will change anything what ever the result. But I fear it may cause a greater divide than is already there.
Ah now Darby, you know that the govt are not going to start sending out cheques without input from the gaa as to who qualifies for those cheques. A vote in congress could do all sorts of things such as suspending players who accepted the grants and so on, as ylou stated somewhere else it would lead to alienation of county players and it's not a road that we want to go down.
QuoteThe Sports Council won't distribute the money.
I don't think it's just about who sends out the cheques, had the GAA not also to agree to who got how much?
Not sure on the details POG but you're probably right.
QuoteAh now Darby, you know that the govt are not going to start sending out cheques without input from the gaa as to who qualifies for those cheques. A vote in congress could do all sorts of things such as suspending players who accepted the grants and so on, as ylou stated somewhere else it would lead to alienation of county players and it's not a road that we want to go down.
Exactly Bogball, which is what I was trying to get at but I agree with you, in reality the GAA would have to have some input. But the thing is this doesn't have to be anymore divisive than it already has been. The grants are coming from the government the GAA are centrally distributing them and the GPA have agreed that the GAA have no responsibility to cover this money in the event that the government stops paying it. Unless I'm missing something, this seems to cover all the bases.
I'm sure this has been covered as well, but spare a thought (now that the grants will be paid) for the hurlers who are very good hurlers in Co. Kilkenny, but just can't make the Kilkenny hurling panel because the standard is so high there. This is despite worse hurlers from the likes of my own county (Mayo) getting grants. Ditto the good Kerry footballers who can't make it and some other county's footballers like Tipperary perhaps.
Do they qualify for grants or what?
No they don't, and this is a weakness of the system, but the money is so little as to not matter. I don't think too many club players in the stronger counties will worry about this too much. Some will say but what happens wy it gets bigger?, but as long as it remains a government grant then the amount won't be enough for a kilkenny hurler to leave his job, family and friends and head up to Donegal for the few bob.
The wedge has been struck it's first blow and this is a sad day...i feel like giving up
I don't believe there was a SINGLE dissenting voice - that's bollocks !!!
The GAA are shiting themselves afraid of a strike in case the tenders for the new rights have to be amended !
They've given in to rugby, soccer , have allowed the Queen to be played in Croke Park - and now they're paying the players - sorry they're giving them grants -
What a laugh !
Would the "grassroots" prefer if the grants were called voucher rewards, like they are in Kerry, where they pay their players over €6,000 each in this form.
It didn't appear to cause a stir when these payments were accounted for in the Kerry championship expenditure in their annual report which was made public and printed in the papers.
Vouchers ? Grants ? What do you call it ? Pay for play ? Wages ? Expenses ? Benefit in kind ? Mileage ? :D
Quote from: Main Street on December 08, 2007, 09:14:54 PM
Would the "grassroots" prefer if the grants were called voucher rewards, like they are in Kerry, where they pay their players over €6,000 each in this form.
It didn't appear to cause a stir when these payments were accounted for in the Kerry championship expenditure in their annual report which was made public and printed in the papers.
First I heard of this.
How do the players get these vouchers? Is it a case of business men/companies handing them to the players or are they purchased by Kerry co. board?
Just what I read in the Examiner when the players did not go on holiday last year.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=GAA-qqqa=sport-qqqid=49831-qqqx=1.asp (http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=GAA-qqqa=sport-qqqid=49831-qqqx=1.asp)
'The team holiday for the All-Ireland winners to Australia last year cost over €322,000, a significant increase on the previous season when there was no official holiday, but players were rewarded with vouchers to the tune of €212,000.'
Quote from: Main Street on December 08, 2007, 09:33:04 PM
Just what I read in the Examiner when the players did not go on holiday last year.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=GAA-qqqa=sport-qqqid=49831-qqqx=1.asp (http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=GAA-qqqa=sport-qqqid=49831-qqqx=1.asp)
'The team holiday for the All-Ireland winners to Australia last year cost over €322,000, a significant increase on the previous season when there was no official holiday, but players were rewarded with vouchers to the tune of €212,000.'
That's ridiculous if players were handed vouchers in that amount - they might as well be paid.
And we've people on here arguing that they're out of pocket.
But surely you're getting mixed up here with a team holiday and vouchers !
Not many teams get a holiday - this only applies in the main when a team is successful - Kerry players DON'T GET THIS EVERY YEAR - I think you've read this wrong. Kerry players don't get a grant / voucher etc etc from the county board every year.
Look lads - it's a simple fact - not too many players are out of pocket from playing GAA - they all do it for the love of the game -
What if club players were to take the same attitude ?
I note that Crossmaglen ( probably the most successful club side of all time ) are putting forward a motion to Armagh county convention opposing these grants.
Is it about whether they are out of pocket or not?
Is it about the principle?
Is it about this being the first step to professionalism?
Is it about the fact that rowers or triathletes don't get grants?
Is it about the threatened strike?
Or am I missing something, why when the government is paying, and the GPA put on record that the GAA won't have to pay if the grant scheme ends are lads still anti-grant/GPA?
We should also remember that players on tour to Australia with the international rules party got (from memory) €200 a day spending money from Coca Cola.
It's because the GPA through its public utterances by Chief Executive Mr. Farrell are perceived to be arrogant, greedy, self appointed and insulting ( towards the ordinary member ) !!!!
And this is the thin end of the wedge.
It's because it's pay for play - one penny above expenses is pay for play
It's because hundreds and hundreds of volunteers all over the country put in the same as the county players do yet they don't get mileage, the free gear, the meals, the holidays, the 80,000 cheering their name etc.
It's because everyone is equal in our organisation.
It's because the GAA have been bullied and threatened by a group who see £3,000 as a good start.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 08, 2007, 10:01:20 PM
It's because the GAA have been bullied and threatened by a group who see £3,000 as a good start.
Please note - the Irish Govt are giving these grants for Inter Co players - and they are only about half the sum you say.
Quote from: orangeman on December 08, 2007, 09:38:53 PM
But surely you're getting mixed up here with a team holiday and vouchers !
Not many teams get a holiday - this only applies in the main when a team is successful - Kerry players DON'T GET THIS EVERY YEAR - I think you've read this wrong. Kerry players don't get a grant / voucher etc etc from the county board every year.
How do you know they don't get that every year? You could be right about the success part, but then they are dripping with success arent they?
Kerry are only professional when successfull? :) or it could be €6.5k for a win €5k if they lost in the final €4k for reaching only the semi's.
They get the holiday plus spending money (sorry, slush for tips) some year and cash (vouchers) the other year they don't go away on holiday.
Quotethe Irish Govt are giving these grants for Inter Co players
Have I said something different?
Quoteand they are only about half the sum you say.
That's worse though that's only the weaker counties.
QuoteAnd this is the thin end of the wedge.
QuoteIt's because the GAA have been bullied and threatened by a group who see £3,000 as a good start.
Lads will you please stop with this line of argument, that is your opinion only, and you know the question I asked earlier, until that can be answered your argument holds no water.
QuoteIt's because the GPA through its public utterances by Chief Executive Mr. Farrell are perceived to be arrogant, greedy, self appointed and insulting ( towards the ordinary member ) !!!!
That's fair enough Orangeman and I'd agree that they don't come across particularly well.
QuoteIt's because it's pay for play - one penny above expenses is pay for play
It's because hundreds and hundreds of volunteers all over the country put in the same as the county players do yet they don't get mileage, the free gear, the meals, the holidays, the 80,000 cheering their name etc.
It's because everyone is equal in our organisation.
Lads in many ways you are a credit to the association and I agree with much of what you say. But this is only a government grant, it doesn't make IC players more important, it isn't pay for play and I don't think the majority of club players put the same effort in. Let them have it and this issue will die away, we can move on and professionalism will be put to bed for the foreseable future.
QuoteIrishmen playing hurling and gaelic for the pride of family,community and county,giving it their all.Money never asked for,the value of the reward was much more than its price.
It was nice to have 120 championships like this.
The first ever professional championship will be different.Maybe not for the best.
I just can't see how this is.
QuoteParasite GAA managers and trainers are often paid by dodgy businessmen.
The Free State is run by dodgy businessmen.
Looks like a good marriage.
What does that mean?
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 08, 2007, 10:34:19 PM
Quotethe Irish Govt are giving these grants for Inter Co players
Have I said something different?
You talk about the GAA being bullied. The GAA were always in favour of the Govt giving grants to Inter Co players and Central Council have today accepted "in principle" the Grants.
Is all the opposition a case of some lads up North being "agin everything" and going out of their way to be insulted or discomforted by something that someone else came up with?
darbyo
The GAA have been bullied a threatened. What else would you call what has happened? YOu've said yourself that a county player described this is to you as a start as did Canavan.
Quote
Lads in many ways you are a credit to the association and I agree with much of what you say. But this is only a government grant, it doesn't make IC players more important, it isn't pay for play and I don't think the majority of club players put the same effort in. Let them have it and this issue will die away, we can move on and professionalism will be put to bed for the foreseable future.
If it's not pay for play what is it? Expenses? The GAA take care of expenses. Maybe county boards should stop paying expenses.
If you don't think county players are considered more important than the rest of us look at some of the comments on this very thread, particularly from O'Neill and Lecale4. County players must have a very high opinion of themselves also, I know if I was a county player that accepted a cheque I would a hard time looking dozens in my club in the eye.
Ross
QuoteYou talk about the GAA being bullied. The GAA were always in favour of the Govt giving grants to Inter Co players and Central Council have today accepted "in principle" the Grants.
Is all the opposition a case of some lads up North being "agin everything" and going out of their way to be insulted or discomforted by something that someone else came up with?
The GAA wanted nothing to do with the grants and now because of a threat to strike they are distributing them and weren't they also a party to the agreement on who was getting how much.
As for your comment on the North, it's not worth a response - you're not dessie are you?
I can't see how next years championship is professional. It is a grant from the government not money from the GAA unless that changes then the GAA is still amateur. But this has been done already so I guess you think that the government are funding a professional GAA.
An awful lot of well known County players get a nice few € from supermarket openings,housing development launches, medal presentations etc. The players on International Rules trips got a good "dig out" allowance from Coca Cola and as the world and its mother knows every County and CLUB Manager in the country are getting their pockets well filled by Sponsors,Supporters Clubs as well as Official Travel Expenses.
Are they all to be deemed unholy professionals to be totally boycotted by the so called "malcontents"?
Lads stop fretting yourselves and getting ye're knickers in twists over a little biteen extra for Inter Co players.
No I'm not Dessie or a member of the GPA and unfortunately never was or will be a County player and the vast majority of people complaining about Grants are from the North.
Quote from: shamateur gaels on December 08, 2007, 11:06:35 PM
government try to put pressure on GAA to open Croke Park for rugby and football.
Football has been played in Croke Park/Jones's Road for over a Century. ;)
You're hardly a GAA man referring to 11 aside as "football".
We Gaels call it Soccer ;)
QuoteAn awful lot of well known County players get a nice few € from supermarket openings,housing development launches, medal presentations etc. The players on International Rules trips got a good "dig out" allowance from Coca Cola and as the world and its mother knows every County and CLUB Manager in the country are getting their pockets well filled by Sponsors,Supporters Clubs as well as Official Travel Expenses.
Are they all to be deemed unholy professionals to be totally boycotted by the so called "malcontents"?
For a start, every Club manager in the country is not being paid.
The issues you bring up have little or nothing to do with this debate, they are seperate issues.
Quote
No I'm not Dessie or a member of the GPA and unfortunately never was or will be a County player and the vast majority of people complaining about Grants are from the North.
What are you basing this on?
Quotedarbyo
The GAA have been bullied a threatened. What else would you call what has happened? YOu've said yourself that a county player described this is to you as a start as did Canavan.
POG I think it was a negotiation tactic resulting from frustration with the GAA. I agree with you about what Canavan and my buddy said, that is worrying for me but they can't force us into professionalism, so I'm not too bothered about it. As for the expenses etc. POG and I know you don't see it this way but I don't care if lads make money out of playing GAA, especially if it's the government paying. I don't want to see a professional GAA but not because of the money but because of the fundamental changes it would entail.
My own county will never win Sam but I get as much enjoyment out of the odd championship win we get at whatever level as you do from an Ulster championship or AI win. And I have no problem with those lads getting a few bob, it won't detract in any way the satisfaction I get the next time we upset the odds. In fact I'm glad they are getting something extra.
QuoteI will spell it out s l o w l y.
Desperate clubs want success without wanting to work hard.Desperate club has no spine.
Desperate club look for parasite manager.
Desperate club and parasite manager agree with manager getting €€€ or £££ paid by dodgy businessman.
Parasite manager makes much money by training the team too much.
Training = expenses.
Desperate club is no better off.
Parasite manager takes money and run and say players were not good enough.
Dodgy government try to buy votes for election.
Dodgy government try to put pressure on GAA to open Croke Park for rugby and football.
Dodgy government look to GPA to buy votes for next election.Tell GPA if you support Croke Park to be open we will pay you off.
GPA tell GAA to open Croke Park.
Croke Park open to rugby and football keeps people happy.
Happy people vote for Dodgy government to get back in.Dodgy government happy.
GPA tell Dodgy government to pay up.Dodgy government try to hide.
GPA say strike.Dodgy government sit up and pay out.
GAA have no spine as they look for sponsor and tv money.
GPA takes money and run and say the rest are dumb fucks.
Based on your posts so far I'd say you have to do alot of things s l o w l y.
QuotePOG I think it was a negotiation tactic resulting from frustration with the GAA.
I disagree. The GPA are use to bullying tactics - someone critcises them in the paper or on the tv today you can be sure there'll be a personal attack on them from a GPA member the next day.
Quote
My own county will never win Sam but I get as much enjoyment out of the odd championship win we get at whatever level as you do from an Ulster championship or AI win. And I have no problem with those lads getting a few bob, it won't detract in any way the satisfaction I get the next time we upset the odds. In fact I'm glad they are getting something extra.
I won't be supporting my county again.
Ross is Mayo now in the north ? Is Offaly ? Is Meath ? I could go on ......
Don't generalise by saying that EVERY county manager and EVERY club manager gets paid and gets their pockets well filled.
QuoteNon GAA people call it football.Calling football soccer to non GAA people makes them angry.
Angry non GAA people wont vote for you.
Real GAA men and women don't strike for money.
What are you talking about?
I think it was Darbyo who suggested that county boards should replace the expenses they currently pay with these new grants - where would the logic be there ?
Pro GPA supporters rely on what Dessie has said - if managers, journalists etc etc get paid then players are entitled to get paid as well - so all they can do is perpetuate this falsehood by saying that every manager in the country gets a fortune of money ! Poor excuse and shows the weakness of their argument.
QuoteI disagree. The GPA are use to bullying tactics - someone critcises them in the paper or on the tv today you can be sure there'll be a personal attack on them from a GPA member the next day.
That's fair enough POG we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
QuoteI won't be supporting my county again.
Really, I can't believe that. Do you feel that strongly about this?
QuoteI won't be supporting my county again.
Really, I can't believe that. Do you feel that strongly about this?
Yes.
To be honest, I was feeling luke warm towards the county last year over one of two different things and stayed away from the championship matches (I had attended the league and McKenna cup games I could) but this is the final nail in the coffin.
These people don't belong to my GAA and clearly have no respect for the ordinary GAA people like myself.
I'm sure I won't be missed but that's how I feel.
QuoteI think it was Darbyo who suggested that county boards should replace the expenses they currently pay with these new grants - where would the logic be there ?
I'm afraid I didn't suggest that orangeman.
Quotedarbyo,are you retarded or stupid?
Always nice when children who have broken into their parents drinks cabinet join the debate. So to clear things up for you, I don't mind if lads get money from the government, appearance fees or a generous businessman. My objection to professionalism is based not on the money but on the fact that transfers would be common place and many clubs would be destroyed. But you might have garnered that if you had read the posts as opposed to just copying and pasting quotes.
QuotePro GPA supporters rely on what Dessie has said - if managers, journalists etc etc get paid then players are entitled to get paid as well - so all they can do is perpetuate this falsehood by saying that every manager in the country gets a fortune of money ! Poor excuse and shows the weakness of their argument.
Yep that's right orangeman everything I've said has been inspired by Dessie.
QuoteYes.
To be honest, I was feeling luke warm towards the county last year over one of two different things and stayed away from the championship matches (I had attended the league and McKenna cup games I could) but this is the final nail in the coffin.
These people don't belong to my GAA and clearly have no respect for the ordinary GAA people like myself.
I'm sure I won't be missed but that's how I feel
I'm sorry to hear that POG and I hope you change your mind soon.
Quotedarbyo when you type insults expect it back.
one more time.
shamateur gaels you typed the first insulting post, now if you want to debate this issue in a rational, intelligent manner then we can do that, but if you are going to start posts with this 'I'll spell it out s l o w l y' then we can do without you.
So to start of the debate this quote 'engaged in by persons receiving financial return' doesn't make IC players professionals now. they get financial gain through legitimate expenses, so what is the difference?
Question From Shamameteur.....A question for so called forward thinkers.
Inter county players should be paid because parasite managers and trainers get dodgy money?
Did you ever agree with parasite managers and trainers getting dodgy money?
Yes? How much is too much?
No? WHAT WERE YOU DOING TO STOP IT?
Answer. Prove this sweeping statement re. payments, or belt up
The GAA at its upper levels has to have a long hard look at itself, in my view the constant drive towards revenue maximisation is one of the reasons why the GPA has been able to get support for its stance. It's long been asked, where does the money go? The GAA are known countrywide as the Grab All Association, for players, who drive this product it does get a little sickening, they hear of the GAA in high level talks over a €20M TV deal, they hear that the GAA are taking in approx €8M p.a from the rental of the ground to soccer and rugby, they hear that their mates are paying €50 to go and watch them play, and they've got to think, where does this money go? What do I get out of it? Are nests somewhere being feathered? They think that everything in the organisation is professional apart from themselves, it has to rankle, and it is unfair, no matter what way we want to look at.
On re-reading this, (I rarely do, I know), I'm thinking, perhaps the top level are happy enough to move towards professionalism, they maybe think that it's inevitable and are backing this grant system as a way of making the whole thing a little more palatable when the move does come. I wonder will the GAA see its capital funding cut by, oh, I don't know, €5M p.a - who knows, but it's be something worth keeping an eye on - I can just see the Sindo headline, GAA and Govt in moneylaundering scam!!
Audited accounts are produced each year at Congress showing exactly where the money goes. Having said that, you may not be far of the mark in saying that a few people at high level would be happy to see a move towards professionalism, and a profitable sinecure for themselves. They must be resisted and opposed by every means possible.
Thats me finished! The GAA refuse to allow this issue go to the grassroots. It is a disgrace! I have played county football, club football and been a volunteer for the last 15 years and I can honestly say that me and the GAA have come to the end of the road. I do not mind the GAA changing direction but I cannot accept it blatantly ignoring the voices of so many members.
I may come back to this board in 15 years time when the ex county player is refusing to coach the under 14's in his club unless he gets 'expenses'.
Over and out!
Quote from: Pangurban on December 09, 2007, 01:51:35 AM
Audited accounts are produced each year at Congress showing exactly where the money goes. Having said that, you may not be far of the mark in saying that a few people at high level would be happy to see a move towards professionalism, and a profitable sinecure for themselves. They must be resisted and opposed by every means possible.
I know that audited accounts are produced, but that doesn't change the perception that there's a helluva lot of money floating around and it may not all be accounted for. I don't subscribe to that view, but it'd be easy for Dessie to wind up the masses of players with a few such choice remarks. In addition, audited accounts can reflect whatever the preparer wants them to.
And in today's headlines...
Colm O'Rourke tries to be as insulting as possible
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/dont-blame-the-players-for-damage-to-amateur-ethos-1241677.html?r=RSS (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/dont-blame-the-players-for-damage-to-amateur-ethos-1241677.html?r=RSS)
The GAA is concerned about us
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/disquiet-amid-diplomacy-1241676.html?r=RSS (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/disquiet-amid-diplomacy-1241676.html?r=RSS)
What went on at the Elk
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/protecting-the-crown-jewels-1241674.html?r=RSS (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/protecting-the-crown-jewels-1241674.html?r=RSS)
O'Rourke spot on as usual. What he says about the Ulster attitude/mentality is 100% correct, we do seem to spawn more than our fair share of 'Naysayers'.
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2007, 12:43:50 PM
O'Rourke spot on as usual. What he says about the Ulster attitude/mentality is 100% correct, we do seem to spawn more than our fair share of 'Naysayers'.
The reasons why the north was largely against rule 21 is obvious
Not sure of the reasons against rule 42 - I was in favour
However this one seems to have country wide opposition.
Quite frankly, the level of understanding of the mechanisms of our own association are not good enough amongst the lads arguing the petty end of this debate all day.
i've missed 5 pages of "debate" and read back through it this morning. every question raised (as though it were brand new) has been answered ad nausem already.
There are a lot of begrudgers out there who oppose this (and every?) government grant scheme. these people seem to change their justification for this on an hourly basis, depending on who can come up with the next rehashed line of opposition.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 08, 2007, 11:44:53 PM
QuoteI won't be supporting my county again.
Really, I can't believe that. Do you feel that strongly about this?
Yes.
To be honest, I was feeling luke warm towards the county last year over one of two different things and stayed away from the championship matches (I had attended the league and McKenna cup games I could) but this is the final nail in the coffin.
These people don't belong to my GAA and clearly have no respect for the ordinary GAA people like myself.
I'm sure I won't be missed but that's how I feel.
Don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out...
QuoteThere are a lot of begrudgers out there who oppose this (and every?) government grant scheme. these people seem to change their justification for this on an hourly basis, depending on who can come up with the next rehashed line of opposition.
What?
There are a number of arguments against the grants which have been consistently argued by a number of posters.
Obviously everyone is not sticking to the same argument and putting it over and over again because:
a. We're all different people with different opinions
b. There are a number of arguments
This thread is a laughably incoherent jumble of nayesayers jumping on the most recent anti gpa thought. reasoned debate about the issues is very limited and soon washed away by the next orangeman or shamateur gael declaring that dessie is a bollox.
You could say the same about those pro grant jumping from argument to argument.
But there are a number of different arguments on both sides - is that too much for you to grasp?
No, but there are very few of the school yard posts here actually releent. for example, lambasting the gpa because of the actions of croke park is the height of supidity.
Quotelambasting the gpa because of the actions of croke park is the height of supidity.
I don't understand what you mean by that.
I guess by looking at all the posts since my last one that I'm not the only one who thinks the GPA and their ilk are a lot like 'The lady doth protest too much methinks', I think the fact that they are so steadfastly denying that professionalism is in the game that they bloody know well it is by getting PAYMENT IN THE FORM OF GRANTS.
Will the GPA come out on TV and set ut what the increases they want over the few years ? Will it be based on inflation or based on what they can get out of the GAA - The GPA are very quick to point out that there would be no GAA without the county players - what about a GAA without the supporters ?
The point, which unsurprisingly has been missed, is that the gpa have no control over the actions of croke park. so whats the point lambasting the gpa for croker's actions?
god give me strength
Managers are being paid illegally since ...19 ?
Trainers are getting more than 50cent per mile since ......
Coaches are getting money ....
Doctor,Physio and so on.
All of this is being paid from money raised by GAA units either through Sponsors or Supporters Clubs and it's being paid out of certain unmentionable accounts -
You could say they are the payments that dare not speak their name to paraphrase whoever it was.
no major complaints from anyone about all of the above once it's well hidden under the counter/behind closed doors etc. and all of them payments are for more than €2500 p.a.
But then along comes the government and openly and oofficially and legally says it will give grants to Inter Co players and all hell breaks loose from some quarters.
RANK F****ING HYPOCRISY
As for the Mayo County Board - I hope J O'M is happy with his 50c per mile expenses.
Surely such a fine body of unanimous men like said Mayo Co board wouldnt countenance JO'M getting anything more.
HYPOCRITES the lot of ye
Do the GPA have influence over the GAA then ???
Why did they threaten a strike ?
Who was going to suffer as a result of the strike ?
I personally would have loved to have seen a strike and seen Dessie and his ilke outside the gates of Parnell Park etc etc -
Quote from: orangeman on December 09, 2007, 04:49:38 PM
Will the GPA come out on TV and set ut what the increases they want over the few years ? Will it be based on inflation or based on what they can get out of the GAA - The GPA are very quick to point out that there would be no GAA without the county players - what about a GAA without the supporters ?
Orangeman - Why don't you actually read and try to understand where the money is coming from???? IT IS COMING FROM THE GOVT (REPEAT THE GOVT) AND NOT THE GAA.....
I am well aware that the payment for playing is coming from the government !
But I'm asking the question - why did you call a strike ? Why did you feel the need to strike and why was the threat to strike made against the GAA ?
Strike action wasn't going to worry Bertie - it was going to affect the GAA !
So therefore it was designed to put pressure on the GAA !
Orangeman - For a very simple reason...
The GAA/GPA had agreed that grants were acceptable...this was put to the Govt and they agreed....the only issue was the GAA refused to distribute the grants...
This took 5 years with sign of resolving so they threatened a strike in order to get the GAA back talking and invovled in solving the problem...
Amazing how quick the GAA got back involved once there was a threat....
So from now on if the GPA don't get their way, Dessie calls for a strike ?????
Well, to hell with that, if we're going to get a strike everytime things aren't to Dessie's liking !!!!
I think it's time the GAA called their bluff and decided to face the GPA down and see what happens when Dessie asks the employees to go on strike ?
What do you think would happen in the event of a strike ? How do you see it panning out ?
Exactly Mid Louth - this is what I have been contending all along - all these GPA people are coming on and saying it is NOT pay for play !
Don't insult the little intelligence you believe we have - OF COURSE it's pay for play - players are going to put it down on their tax return - you put all earned income down on your tax return - this is earned from playing Gaelic games - so please don't say it's NOT pay for play - and by the way, when I'm at it, there are a lot of apologists for the GPA within the GAA hiersarchy who are also trying to tell us that the amateur ethos is still protected - I wonder would they go and catch themselves on as well !
Talk about spin ! My head's going round in circles there's that much spin !!! :D ;D
Quote from: orangeman on December 09, 2007, 09:10:34 PM
, when I'm at it, there are a lot of apologists for the GPA within the GAA hiersarchy who are also trying to tell us that the amateur ethos is still protected
You're basically calling well respected GAA & GPA people liars with that statement, as it has been made abundantly clear on a few ocassions that amateur status is sacrosanct. So much for respect for the GAA!
From Orchard County...
"REFEREE'S MORE ENTITLED TO GRANTS" - McGRATH
Former top referee PJ McGrath (Mayo), who took charge of the famous 1982 All-Ireland football final between Kerry and Offaly, has claimed that referees are more entitled to grants than players.
But he is still opposed to any GAA member receiving payment.
"I don't believe grants should be paid to anyone in the manner people are talking about, but if it is to happen, referees should be the first ones to get money," said McGrath, who is also a former chairman of the Mayo county board.
"They make huge sacrifices. Frequently, they are in their 40's, with young families, and they are gone Sunday after Sunday, and week evenings too. They get pittance in expenses to cover their journeys and, in reality, end up losing money.
"When I was refereeing at inter-county level, I had three sons in college. They were coming home at weekends and I was on the road refereeing. And no one can deny without referees, there would be no games."
Do refs not already get paid per match anyway? ???
they get mileage and a meal- hardly payment. i wonder will umpires be looking for grants as well- or maybe waterboys? a pandora's box has been opened that won't be closed. just wondering when the first court case will hit when some player sues the gaa because they can't move to another county to maximise their earnings.
Refs do get paid, it's €40 a match for mens and €20 for womens (I think).
Would be interesting to see if Dessie takes up the offer of a debate
http://spailpin.blogspot.com/ (http://spailpin.blogspot.com/)
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 10, 2007, 12:44:56 AM
Yes and they will be able to produce expenses in most cases to show that there is no tax on the "grant"....
How will they be able to set expenses against the grant?? Afaik, players are already reimbursed for expenses incurred for, well, for whatever, travel, kit..... Basically, players do not want to go down the road of starting to show receipts for expenditure actually incurred, if that happened, and assuming that the reimbursements from county boards is in excess of the expenses incurred, well they may have more tax to pay.
What I'm essentially saying is that I cannot see what expenses they will be able to deduct from this grant, any expenses they incur by virtue of being a county footballer are currently reimbursed, thus these cannot be deducted, as they are no longer expenses. This grant, as I understand it is to recompense players for the 'non-specific' costs of being a county players, ie. overtime forgone, missing out on promotion, time away from family, having to train when all your mates are on the beer.......
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 10, 2007, 01:21:45 AM
How will they be able to set expenses against the grant?? Afaik, players are already reimbursed for expenses incurred for, well, for whatever, travel, kit..... Basically, players do not want to go down the road of starting to show receipts for expenditure actually incurred, if that happened, and assuming that the reimbursements from county boards is in excess of the expenses incurred, well they may have more tax to pay.
What I'm essentially saying is that I cannot see what expenses they will be able to deduct from this grant, any expenses they incur by virtue of being a county footballer are currently reimbursed, thus these cannot be deducted, as they are no longer expenses. This grant, as I understand it is to recompense players for the 'non-specific' costs of being a county players, ie. overtime forgone, missing out on promotion, time away from family, having to train when all your mates are on the beer.......
Exactly what I am thinking. A few weeks ago I approached our PAYE expert at work to question where holiday vouchers would stand. His reply is that it is in essence a taxable benefit but the Revenue appear to turn a blind eye at the minute. However, now that public money is in question, there will have to be much more accountability. That will open a can of worms in terms of other benefits that some players are being paid, as well as bringing other aspects of their careers/professions into the eye of the Revenue that they may previously have wished to discreetly hide.
Just another question that I don't understand - how are players in the north to be accommodated? Surely the taxpayer in the south won't be stumping up for their grants?
Bennydorano - respect for the GAA coming from the GPA - sure they threatened a strike in order to bully the GAA inot submission and they will do it again without doubt !
So please don't come out with this dribble about having no respect for the GAA - laughable !!
Mark Conway stands down from Club Tyrone!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/7136644.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/7136644.stm)
Hopefully there are more to follow!
Quote from: Rois on December 10, 2007, 08:57:20 AMSurely the taxpayer in the south won't be stumping up for their grants?
Yep, that's one of the reasons why I don't think this scheme is a realistic long term proposition - as the economy sinks deeper into the mire, we can expect to hear plenty of calls for its abandonment (the gaa can well afford to pay its own players....., why should we pay nordies....).
Mark Conway standing down from Club Tyrone is a very significant development in Tyrone.
Quote from: Muzz on December 10, 2007, 02:09:01 PM
Mark Conway stands down from Club Tyrone!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/7136644.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/7136644.stm)
Hopefully there are more to follow!
Sadly received an email from him last night about this. I don't think the magnitude of his loss to Club Tyrone can be underestimated - he was a major driving force.
Don't quite understand your comment on more following though Muzz?
I know of very generous doners to the GAA who are considering pulling out their funding / award / grant / donations to the GAA if this award proceeds. Rightly or wrongly this action will be real and genuine and they see it as their contribution to sustaining volunteerism and is dependent on that principle being maintained. It is their choice to give money to whatever they believe in. Why do they do it? These guys are worth a few grand a year to the GAA and as it was put to me at the weekend, "the moneys better in my pocket as in someone elses."
I dont blame the GPA any more, I blame apathy by the majority of the association.
Mark Conway in my opinion and to the majority of people who have ever met with him is worth a thousand Dessie Farrells, as a Tyrone Gael; I see nothing but an exit flow of donors, and facilitators, a brain drain of the higher thinkers leaving the association. I dont care for the county squads they can do what they want now, its open for them now to go with the flow. Fair play they won.
As for the clubs I believe they will suffer greatly, but id appreciate if Dessie did change the name of his sports agency to the County players association. That then we all know unambiguously what they stand for and who, and people who volunteer can still align themselves with clubs. Theres no bitterness from anyone who lost the arguement Im sure, and I hope their wouldnt be, let the people at the top who made this abhorrent agreement run it from now on. I think those who will be less active or leaving the association are leaving out of principles and not GPA esque - because of money. Some will say today is a good day to leave the GAA, its certainly in line for an interesting future.
Fair play to Mark for standing up to the 'Pay For Play' brigade.
This wont be the 1st high profile resignation for sure.
QuoteDon't quite understand your comment on more following though Muzz?
Simply mean that I hope to see more people in postions like Mark was in to stand up and be counted. Losing Mark is a huge loss not just to Tyrone but the the whole GAA. Maybe with more influential people leaving their postions we can see the GAA taking another look at this.
Is it any coincidence that some of the smartest strategic thinkers withion the GAA are against the opposition to pay for play.
The one good thing about the GAA is we all volunteered to be part of it, so if we no longer like the organisations rules or are not prepared to stay in line with new policy we can always choose to walk away. Come to think of it Dessie....
I wonder will anybody stop going to support their county teams now that the GPA have got their way?
Quote from: rrhf on December 10, 2007, 02:58:18 PM
Is it any coincidence that some of the smartest strategic thinkers withion the GAA are against the opposition to pay for play.
The one good thing about the GAA is we all volunteered to be part of it, so if we no longer like the organisations rules or are not prepared to stay in line with new policy we can always choose to walk away. Come to think of it Dessie....
Could we limit that to Tyrone and the Derry
Quote from: orangeman on December 10, 2007, 10:01:06 AM
Bennydorano - respect for the GAA coming from the GPA - sure they threatened a strike in order to bully the GAA inot submission and they will do it again without doubt !
So please don't come out with this dribble about having no respect for the GAA - laughable !!
dribble indeed
There's more than you will not be too bothered ! :(
QuoteQuote from: Farrandeelin on Today at 03:02:18 PM
I wonder will anybody stop going to support their county teams now that the GPA have got their way?
I wouldn't be bothered that much after the weekend if I missed a game.
You're going to stop following your county team because the government is giving the players a small grant??
So, do you usually switch off any athletics on the telly for the reason that the athletes are getting a grant?
I really think people are over reacting, and will be supporting the teams as usual by the time the league is in full swing. Sure remember rule 21, then rule 42.
The GAA didn't collapse then, and it won't collapse now
Quote from: Tubberman on December 10, 2007, 04:48:54 PM
You're going to stop following your county team because the government is giving the players a small grant??
So, do you usually switch off any athletics on the telly for the reason that the athletes are getting a grant?
But do the athletes say they are going to strike if they dont get the money?
Ill probably sit at home and watch them on pay per view. Holy christ, What way is the GAA going and what way is it being led? The leadership of Kelly and Brennan may well have finish the organsiation. Is it ironic that a Kerry man and a Kilkenny man - from the two strongest counties in the GAA have been the 2 weakest presidents in GAA history.
QuoteYou're going to stop following your county team because the government is giving the players a small grant??
So, do you usually switch off any athletics on the telly for the reason that the athletes are getting a grant?
But do the athletes say they are going to strike if they dont get the money?
Ok, you were against the strike threat. So was I. It was a kick in the teeth for a lot of people and was a terrible decision by the muppet leadership of the GPA.
But that doesn't mean I should be against the govt giving a grant to the players.
Just a thought.
Would it be fair enough to say that the main reason many people are angry and disappointed is because the GPA threw a strop with their strike threat, and the GAA leadership gave in straight away.
And that the principle of the govt grant, while it may be seen as an unwise move, is almost secondary to the anger that GPA could hold the organisation to ransom with their strike threat?
It was the players who voted to strike
How can anyone who says it was a "kick in the teeth" when this happened show any type of support for them?
Quote from: Tubberman on December 10, 2007, 04:48:54 PM
fSo, do you usually switch off any athletics on the telly for the reason that the athletes are getting a grant?
I really think people are over reacting, and will be supporting the teams as usual by the time the league is in full swing. Sure remember rule 21, then rule 42.
The GAA didn't collapse then, and it won't collapse now
This whole "other amateurs get grants and that's ok" argument is beginning to annoy me.
Yes other athletes get grants. They don't have the support of a multi-million pound organisation behind them like intercounty gaelic players have. They don't have an 80,000 seater stadium built largely through the vision and support of the hundreds of thousands who supported the GAA and willed for such a fantastic venue to showcase their sport. Other amateur sports don't have groups like Club Tyrone with 500 members paying £500 a year because they appreciate what others in the county give up - that's their small concession.
Other amateur sportspeople need the grant. In my opinion, intercounty gaelic players shouldn't.
This change is personally lot harder to swallow than the two apparently more momentous changes in the last number of years. In those cases, the changes benefitted (in my opinion obviously) the association as a whole, ie one particular lot of volunteers wasn't favoured over another. This is different.
Well said. I beleieve the members of the GAA club members should lobby their committees to speak up for them. Mark Conway was only the start.
Quote from: Tubberman on December 10, 2007, 04:57:35 PM
Would it be fair enough to say that the main reason many people are angry and disappointed is because the GPA threw a strop with their strike threat, and the GAA leadership gave in straight away.
No, at least, thats not the case for me.
The strike threat disgusted me, but its not the big issue here.
Quote
And that the principle of the govt grant, while it may be seen as an unwise move, is almost secondary to the anger that GPA could hold the organisation to ransom with their strike threat?
Definitely not. I fear this may lead the GAA down the same path as soccer/rugby - that is a far far bigger problem in my eyes than a silly little strike.
See above post for me too.
Spot on radioGaaGaa.
QuoteI fear this may lead the GAA down the same path as soccer/rugby - that is a far far bigger problem in my eyes than a silly little strike.
QuoteSee above post for me too.
Spot on radioGaaGaa.
Ok so, I've asked this numerous times already and no-one in the anti-GPA ranks has even attempted an answer. If you fear that this may lead to the ruination of the GAA by turning the organisation professional. How can this happen, unless a 2/3 majority of the members of the GAA want the organisation to go professional? And if the vast majority want to the GAA to go professional then that is the democratic will of the members of the GAA.
Unless ANYONE (I swore I'd never used caps to make a point, but ye have driven me to it lads) can lay out the path to professionalism for the GAA, then you just sound like a bunch of Al Gores trying to catch man-bear-pig before it destroys the world. (It's a South Park episode for non-fans)
Quote from: darbyo on December 10, 2007, 05:52:35 PM
Ok so, I've asked this numerous times already and no-one in the anti-GPA ranks has even attempted an answer. If you fear that this may lead to the ruination of the GAA by turning the organisation professional. How can this happen, unless a 2/3 majority of the members of the GAA want the organisation to go professional? And if the vast majority want to the GAA to go professional then that is the democratic will of the members of the GAA. Unless ANYONE (I swore I'd never used caps to make a point, but ye have driven me to it lads) can lay out the path to professionalism for the GAA, then you just sound like a bunch of Al Gores trying to catch man-bear-pig before it destroys the world. (It's a South Park episode for non-fans)
Definition of professional:
1.
a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
Question: Are inter county footballers going to be receiving pay for training/playing?
This deal will result in inter-county players becoming semi-professional, you can run around with semantics until your blue in the face but that is the bottom line.
Dress the "grants" up whatever way you want, but it creates a division between the inter-county player and the county board member/the club player/the club member.
They will be thinking to themselves, "why bother?" "Why should I put my time in when I'm not getting renumeration?"
If you honestly think that won't be the case, perhaps you'll explain the changes in local rugby when it turned professional.
Quote from: Tubberman on December 10, 2007, 04:48:54 PM
You're going to stop following your county team because the government is giving the players a small grant??
Tubberman, I have better things to do with my time (and better things on which to waste petrol) than to travel up to Newry or down to Wexford next spring to get wet and cold looking at a collection of individuals who are only willing to play for the county if they're getting paid.
You say yourself elsewhere that the chief executive of the GPA is "an arrogant, greedy man". But, with the solitary exception of Colm Bradley, not one current inter-county player publicly criticised the behaviour of the GPA leadership or publicly disagreed with the course of action being taken during this dispute. We have to assume therefore that their stance and behaviour was supported (or at least acquiesced in) by the vast majority of inter-county players.
Darbyo...you just seem to be sticking your head in the sand and refusing to accept that this is the beginning.
Rule 11 has been diluted and is not worth the paper it is written on after that decisiion at the weekend
GPA can survive if they expand their portfolio
By Eugene McGee
Monday December 10 2007
The high-profile members of the GPA must feel that all their Christmases have come together with the Central Council ratification of the now infamous government grant scheme on Saturday.
Getting the deal with the Government, Sports Council and GAA through all the various hoops was an achievement in itself but to have Central Council in effect copper-fasten it against the protesters that came out of the woodwork last week was the icing on the cake.
But despite undoubted success on this issue, the future role of that organisation within the overall GAA scheme of things is not by any means clear. As far as the GAA public is concerned, the GPA has so far been a single issue body concerned only with the government grant scheme.
With this put to bed, many are asking what the GPA will now focus on? As the events of last week show, clearly there is a huge range of emotions about inter-county players in the wider GAA family and it is obvious that one of the strongest is jealousy. I have always maintained, and last week's outbursts have strengthened my view, that many GAA officials have little or no time for inter-county players.
These people regard themselves as the people who really matter in the GAA having convinced themselves they are martyrs to the GAA cause, and generally give the impression the GAA could not survive without them. They see the popular county players as rivals for the public's attention and indeed county team managers are often regarded in that light too. Last week gave them the chance to screw the county stars and boy did they revel in doing so.
The venom that emerged in speeches and on internet sites towards county players in recent weeks has been really shocking even by GAA standards. This is amazing when one considers how popular the great inter-county stars are in their own localities, and it just shows how a tiny minority can use modern communication methods to spread venom, hatred and defamation against county players, usually anonymously. Is this really the GAA we all know and love?
Bitterness
Therein lies one of the greatest challenges for the GPA. As the organisation representing these players, it has become the focal point for all the bitterness and derisory comment. The use of the strike threat turned thousands of GAA people away from the GPA. Now there is great hostility to the organisation and how the GPA will set about addressing that will define its future role.
Obviously the GPA will seek to gain official recognition from the GAA which is a necessity if the GPA is to become acceptable to rank-and-file GAA people. But it will not be easy and the GAA is sure to strike a very hard bargain for such recognition with terms that the GPA will find difficult to swallow, such as operating strictly according to the GAA Official Guide. That would rule out any future strikes, for example.
But the GPA needs to do a lot more if it wants to win the hearts and minds of ordinary GAA members. There is a substantial anti-GPA lobby, particularly in the 'Six Counties,' which will be merciless in its efforts to insult and destroy the body.
The GPA needs to start playing an active role in many other areas of GAA activity such as coaching, demanding a better deal for club players with regard to fixtures, making submissions about controversial matters -- such as playing rule changes -- and how competitions are run.
At its AGM last month, the GPA did pass motions to make representations to the GAA on four items: setting up a twinning system, whereby stronger and weaker hurling counties are paired for the purpose of promoting hurling; asking the Munster Council to reverse its recent decision about seeding its football championship; to ask the Hurling Development Committee to review the recently adapted hurling championship structures; to make representations on behalf of the Division 4 teams who have been excluded from the All-Ireland qualifiers.
This is the sort of thing the GPA needs to get more actively involved in on a day-to-day basis. Has the GPA a view, for example, on the proposed abolition of the Minor and U-21 grades and replacing them with a new U-19 competition?
Uncaring
The GPA should be in a position to ballot its members on matters like these and inform us what the players think. GAA people would regard that as a useful exercise.
Obviously the arrival of a player welfare officer in Croker has undermined the GPA's role in that regard but there is plenty of scope for both. From my experience, there are many forms of abuse and neglect which players at all levels are subjected to by uncaring officials and they all need to have recourse to somebody. I was interested to note that some of the most virulent anti-GPA comments last week came from those people who played key roles in the neglect of players in recent years.
The GPA's biggest challenge is to show the same level of interest in club players as county stars. That, in the long term, will be the ultimate test and unless they do that they will always be called elitist, which seems to have become the strongest term of abuse one can use in the GAA. Of course, county players are elite because by definition they are the best players in each county.
It is that very fact that has played a major part in the GAA being what it is today. The county players fill the stadiums, excite thousands of fans, attract mass media coverage and are pivotal in bringing in millions in gate receipts to the GAA each year. If that's elitism then county players are elite alright.
It is time to stop talking about county players getting money because many of those talking are hypocrites as they come from clubs who illegally pay managers large fees.
County board officers, too, should think twice before attacking county players about money since many of these are complicit in breaking Rule 11 as regards payment to county managers. In addition it is well known that for decades many county boards siphoned off money from national league home games before making returns to Croke Park. Glass houses, stones and all that.
The GPA can have a useful future provided it is officially recognised by the GAA and operates according to normal GAA protocol, as defined by the Official Guide.
If that does not happen quickly we will just have more instances of the internal savagery that has afflicted the GAA in recent months, sparked off by the GPA's campaigns. It is time for all sides to learn hard lessons and the quicker we all get back to playing and watching inter-county games the better.
- Eugene McGee
Is there a difference between pay for play and pay for train?
Quote
A GOOD friend of mine has already been offered double his grant total if he will turn it down officially and say publicly its because he feels it's against the ethos of the GAA.
:D
It'll ge great fun looking back on this thread over the next year and see how the dooms-dayers fared over the year - they'll be debating and goiung to inter-county games til it's coming out of their ears. The same as the CP issue.
As for Mark Conway, I've been to many Club Tyrone functions since 2002 and Conway was sounding more and more like a man living in the past, despite his initial vision in '95. I was speaking to a Kildress man recently, a clubman of Conway's, who agreed that the majority of forward thinkers in that area fail to see at least one relevant argument he was coming up with. Thank God, I thought I was going mad.
Club Tyrone exceeded Conway long ago. As a member I see my money going towards youth preparation more than anything. If Conway wants to pull the plug on that for him fair enough.
Quote from: ONeill on December 10, 2007, 06:47:56 PM
Club Tyrone exceeded Conway long ago.
How so? He is a key member of the committee and has driven many of the initiatives this year and I don't doubt in every other year since its existence. I'm not saying it can't survive without him, but I can imagine some members stopping the standing orders.
By the way, I believe you will not see any of your Club Tyrone money going directly towards youth preparation in the next number of years.
CT Has been on the go long enough now and has a healthly blanket of organsiers and commitee men. His drive was crucial from 95-03 but it's such as well oiled machine now that he'll not be missed.
Why do you think CT funds will not go to all sections of Tyrone GAA?
In the short term it may lose. Gradually, when it becomes clear that what happened was simply govn grants provided for top athletes and pittance at that, it'll soon return to something near the norm.
QuoteDarbyo...you just seem to be sticking your head in the sand and refusing to accept that this is the beginning.
Rule 11 has been diluted and is not worth the paper it is written on after that decisiion at the weekend
Ok FTJC, if my head is in the sand, can you explain to me how professionalism can be foisted upon the GAA membership without their approval, and please don't point to this grant as something that went against grassroots opinion. Because there is a world of differnce between a grant of €3k from the government and the GAA paying players a living wage for playing football/hurling. If as you say this is the beginning then you must have some idea as to how it can go forward.
QuoteDarbyo, if the grants announced had a top level of around €25,000 instead of around €2,500 would you have a different opinion?
No, I have no problem with the government giving GAA players money whatever the value. My objection to professionalism has nothing to do with elitism, the principle of amateurism or anyother such notions. I just believe that it couldn't be sustainable, hurling would probably die off as genuine sport, county football in 2/3 of the counties would also end and numerous clubs would fold. In addition too few players would be soaking up too much GAA money and as a consequence improving infrastructure, investing in clubs etc. would all suffer. But if the government want to pay them great. Now I've answered your question do you want to have a crack off answering mine?
Just for the record I personally have NOT HEARD ONE WORD of opposition in Ros to the grants and I WILL be going to see my County teams as often as I can next year.
PINTS OF GUINNESS
I am surprised at you condemning grants for players considering that your club, Silverbridge, has been paying senior team managers for years !!!
Quote from: crossfire on December 10, 2007, 07:38:40 PM
PINTS OF GUINNESS
I am surprised at you condemning grants for players considering that your club, Silverbridge, has been paying senior team managers for years !!!
Who?
You're a brave man crossfire, I see you posted that and logged out immediately ::)
Quote from: ONeill on December 10, 2007, 07:02:26 PM
His drive was crucial from 95-03 but it's such as well oiled machine now that he'll not be missed.
You assume that no other cogs will be sickened by this.
Quote from: darbyo on December 10, 2007, 07:19:58 PM
Ok FTJC, if my head is in the sand, can you explain to me how professionalism can be foisted upon the GAA membership without their approval, and please don't point to this grant as something that went against grassroots opinion. Because there is a world of differnce between a grant of €3k from the government and the GAA paying players a living wage for playing football/hurling. If as you say this is the beginning then you must have some idea as to how it can go forward.
I know you wrote this after I posted a dictionary definition of professional.
Perhaps your memory is blurred.
Definition of professional:
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.So, how exactly are IC players not going to be (semi) professional?
Again, your point regarding where things go from here - I put forward local rugby as an example, perhaps you forgot about it as well.
Quote from: darbyo on December 10, 2007, 07:19:58 PM
But if the government want to pay them great.
Do you honestly think that money comes for free? From the big money tree that is the government?
A doctors surgery, hospital beds, gardai, improved roads, more teachers... that is what is being sacrificed to pay these players....
-or-
The government just takes it out of the annual grants it gives to the GAA directly - thus the GAA would be indirectly paying the players.
Quote from: ONeill on December 10, 2007, 08:11:54 PM
Anyone with Tyrone GAA at heart will not be affected, especially after the dust has settled and the red mist clears.
I find your assumption that the grants scheme is good for the wider GAA within Tyrone as extremely arrogant and misguided.
Darybo I'm surprised that you've been reduced to talking about administrators. This has been taken up and explain numerous times.
POG I'm just trying to find the basis of RadioGAAGAA's opposition to the grants. I know why you oppose them and it is a consistent position. But some lads don't seem to quite know why they oppose it, they just do. I agree with paying administrators and I can see how you can and still oppose the grant but it can't be on the basis of the amateur principle.
Quote from: tram on December 10, 2007, 08:13:05 PM
O'Neill, did you think the abolition of Rule 21 was "forward thinking"?
Definitely. Discrimination of any kind is backward thinking.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 10, 2007, 08:13:52 PM
I find your assumption that the grants scheme is good for the wider GAA within Tyrone as extremely arrogant and misguided.
Explain this please. If not, give it a year or two and come back on here.
Quote
To my mind anyone who walks away from the GAA about this is just being childish because they don't get their own way....and don't have such a real love for the game....
A real love for the game?
You and your mate Dessie have a love for the game?
The love is so great that your mates were prepared to strike?
Mid Louth - So are you going to walk away from the GAA or do you approve of people who walk away from the GAA because they don't agree with a a decision of the GAA???? Does this imply a love of the GAA???
As most of the Anti-GPA members are against the so called "Principal" of paying people for being GAA players - do you not agree that this principal was breached a long time ago???
PintsofGuinness - Well after years of inaction on the issue they threatened to strike.....amazing how quick the matter was sorted wasn't it.....
I wouldn't get a penny out of it as never near that standard but does it affect my love for the game or giving up my time/money to assist - no chance....
So Dubs, you declare a strike with all your mates and you're prepared to stop an intercounty season until you get what you want and you're just right.
You make a personal choice to leave the GAA as you don't agree with the direction it's going and you're a so and so.
Do you realise how stupid that is?
Pintsofguinnes - Seeing as how you seem incapable of understanding one very simple statement I will try and make it simple for you...- I AM NOT PART OF THE GPA, NOT IN THE GPA AND HAVE NO CONTACT WITH THE GPA.......
If you have spent 5 years discussing and negotiating for something when the only problem is the method of delivery of the grant then yes the so called nuclear option has to be taken and a threat made......I don't know about you but I expected this to be resolved well in advance of the end of the year once a bit of pressure was put on .....and Hey presto it was......
If you leave the GAA because the Govt is providing extra funding then what does it say about you????
Dubs, I never said anything about any possible connection you have to the GPA, I don't really care either way.
The fact that you can understand the reasons why the GPA were prepared to stirke in 2008 for grants yet you can't understand why a man does not want to spend his free time raising money for players who'll be handed around 60,000 euro at the end of the year speaks volumes about you.
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 10, 2007, 10:51:32 PM
Mid Louth - So are you going to walk away from the GAA or do you approve of people who walk away from the GAA because they don't agree with a a decision of the GAA???? Does this imply a love of the GAA???
I wouldn't get a penny out of it as never near that standard but does it affect my love for the game or giving up my time/money to assist - no chance....
So if your missus slept with your best mate, are you saying that you would stick by her because you've always loved her and therefore will continue to do so going forward. Or would something have changed your perspective and made you rethink you relationship with her?
This issue means so much to a lot of Gaels whether you like it or not. Many will walk away on principle, because that ethos has been shattered, by the very people who were
once the role model of for the GAA.
Back to basics here lads. These so called grants were negotiated between the GPA and the government, they are nothing to do with the G.A.A. and we should not be administering them
Quote from: theskull1 on December 10, 2007, 11:07:35 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 10, 2007, 10:51:32 PM
Mid Louth - So are you going to walk away from the GAA or do you approve of people who walk away from the GAA because they don't agree with a a decision of the GAA???? Does this imply a love of the GAA???
I wouldn't get a penny out of it as never near that standard but does it affect my love for the game or giving up my time/money to assist - no chance....
So if your missus slept with your best mate, are you saying that you would stick by her because you've always loved her and therefore will continue to do so going forward. Or would something have changed your perspective and made you rethink you relationship with her?
This issue means so much to a lot of Gaels whether you like it or not. Many will walk away on principle, because that ethos has been shattered, by the very people who were once the role model of for the GAA.
TheSkull - Are you trying to claim that nobody else is being paid by the GAA?????
Your analogy is totally incorrect as there is no agreement in the GAA that you can't receive Govt funding...
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 10, 2007, 11:19:47 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on December 10, 2007, 11:07:35 PM
So if your missus slept with your best mate, are you saying that you would stick by her because you've always loved her and therefore will continue to do so going forward. Or would something have changed your perspective and made you rethink you relationship with her?
This issue means so much to a lot of Gaels whether you like it or not. Many will walk away on principle, because that ethos has been shattered, by the very people who were once the role model of for the GAA.
TheSkull - Are you trying to claim that nobody else is being paid by the GAA?????
Your analogy is totally incorrect as there is no agreement in the GAA that you can't receive Govt funding...
Could you make that question any more vague DFS1. How can I answer that??
You say my analogy is incorrect as there is no agreement in the GAA that you can't receive Govt funding, but surely you can't deny that many of us see it as pay for play (whether you don't does not matter for the purposes of this argument). On that basis can you look again at my analogy and see why many of them will walk away on principle. Whether you think it is a flawed judgement on their part or not.....it still won't stop them walking away will it? I'm saying that there will be many who take this attitude and see this as a step to far. Right or wrong?
Quote from: ONeill on December 10, 2007, 07:02:26 PM
CT Has been on the go long enough now and has a healthly blanket of organsiers and commitee men. His drive was crucial from 95-03 but it's such as well oiled machine now that he'll not be missed.
Why do you think CT funds will not go to all sections of Tyrone GAA?
Ahem...
Anyway, I said they wouldn't go
directly to youth development in the next few years, not that they wouldn't go to all sections of Tyrone GAA.
Eh?
Quote from: ONeill on December 10, 2007, 10:07:41 PM
Explain this please. If not, give it a year or two and come back on here.
When you post
QuoteAnyone with Tyrone GAA at heart will not be affected, especially after the dust has settled and the red mist clears.
You are clearly implying that those leaving as a result of the grant aren't protesting for the good of the GAA or are somehow less committed to the ideals of the GAA.
Indeed, it is somewhat ironic that you are questioning the commitment of people
opposed to any volunteer receiving money for their time.
darbyo, dont use the example of paid administrators anymore. it has been trotted out already.
another thing to be cleared up. the rule 21/rule42 debates bear no resemblance to this current debate regarding pay for play/ professionalism.
rule 21 - in my opinion the abolition was fair enough. forward thinking. didnt bother me in the slightest.
rule 42 - i was against it. but seeing as it is only temporary and has obvious financial incentives for the gaa during the temporary period i was willing to let it go. it doesnt really effect our games that much at the end of the day.
grants issue - completely different. strikes at the core principle of the organisation.
I look away for two minutes and you clowns are fightin and batin other like its black eyed friday all year. who's gonna fight the brits while we're fightin each other?
Uladh stay out of it!
I thought the war was over ? ;) :D ;D
Quote from: DMarsden on December 01, 2007, 03:36:53 PM
Government funded grants administered by the sports council, which will put a small hole in the expenses intercounty players incur over the course of a year is progress. anyone who opposes it on the basis that the big bad wolf is going come in the night is the modern day version of the catholic church of the 60s
Pay for Play?
Your going to have to substantiate that nonsense claim
you really are a knob!
small hole in the expenses intercounty players incur over the course of a year they already get fed and get very good travelling expenses so if 1500 euro only puts a small hole in the rest of their expenses what are they doing??
without a doubt you are a GPA prima donna as only a self serving idiot from that crowd of money grabbing gab shites would come out with that.
You make allegations on this thread and on many of the rest you can never back up and when asked to you either ignore it or make some other stupid arguement. For once have the balls to back your claims up or shut up!!
Nobody makes them play if its to much of a demand on their time and effort and if they feel it is interfering with any other aspect of their life
QUIT!! Nobodys stopping you!!
A very well reasoned and forthright argument.
Movig forward, the GAA's immediate task should be to strengthen this
Quote from: ONeill on December 11, 2007, 08:54:34 PM
Rule 11:
he Association is an Amateur Association. A player, team,
official or member shall not accept payment in cash or in
kind in conjunction with the playing of Gaelic Games. A
player, team, official or member shall not contract
himself/itself to any agent other than those officially
approved by Central Council. Expenses paid to all
officials, players, and members shall not exceed the
standard rates laid down by the Central Council. Members
of the Association may not participate in full-time training.
This rule shall not prohibit the payment of salaries or
wages to employees of the Association.
Penalty: Twenty four weeks suspension or expulsion
The GAA needs to re-word - or abolish - rule 11.
If rule 11 were to be modernised and more specific then a lot of ills in the association could be some way to being cured. If everyone were to sign up to what could become a recognised amateur code, including the gpa, then a lot of fears could be allayed. for example, any reworking of rule 11 could specifically prohibit the movement towards GAA grants in the eventuality that the government withdrew their funding. the difficulty there would be the third level grants that the GAA fund directly. payment of managers could also be specifically addressed in any reworking.
Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 11:25:14 AM
A very well reasoned and forthright argument.
Well, you've been asked numerous times to explain how a player is financially worse off for playing intercounty football and have thusfar ignored the question. If you could explain, perhaps more people would come on board.
Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 11:31:51 AM
Movig forward, the GAA's immediate task should be to strengthen this
Agreed.
I also think clear time restrictions on county and club training should be enforced, thus the 'need' for players to be recompensed for their time would not be as 'acute' as it is now. An added benefit might be a re-focussing of the games (at inter county level) on skill rather than fitness.
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 12, 2007, 11:58:54 AM
Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 11:25:14 AM
A very well reasoned and forthright argument.
Well, you've been asked numerous times to explain how a player is financially worse off for playing intercounty football and have thusfar ignored the question. If you could explain, perhaps more people would come on board.
Actually, that's the first time i've been asked that but don't let that detract from your post. i'd have been very happy to point you in the direction of the independent actuary's report of a few years ago which is readily available online. it estimates that an IC player is out of pocket upwards of E100,000 over the course of a ten year career.
Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:06:25 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 12, 2007, 11:58:54 AM
Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 11:25:14 AM
A very well reasoned and forthright argument.
Well, you've been asked numerous times to explain how a player is financially worse off for playing intercounty football and have thusfar ignored the question. If you could explain, perhaps more people would come on board.
Actually, that's the first time i've been asked that but don't let that detract from your post. i'd have been very happy to point you in the direction of the independent actuary's report of a few years ago which is readily available online. it estimates that an IC player is out of pocket upwards of E100,000 over the course of a ten year career.
Now, do you think I would have commented that you'd been asked before on this subject if you hadn't?
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 08, 2007, 05:52:35 PM
Quote from: DMarsden on December 08, 2007, 05:18:23 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 08, 2007, 05:12:19 PM
The government can say whatever they want - the gaa pays players expenses, how can more money be expenses?
Obviously the Government, having professional people to deal with these things, feel the gaa don't adequately meet their responsibilities towards their IC players.
But you're probably right.
You'll be delighted that FF have registered up north given your sycophantic utterings on them here. Now, why don't you answer PoG's question? Why don't you let us know exactly what the non-recompensed costs to an intercounty player are? Can you give us a breakdown of the 100K that the average intercounty players loses out on over his career?
Now, once again, instead of referring to the report, would you have a link to it?
Jaysus, have you no google?
looking for it now, in the mean time
http://www.dcu.ie/alumni/spring04/p30.html
Dmarsden why you use assuming it is not your own the name of a great GAA man as if to reinforce the view that he would in any way be supportive of your aims. Did you pay him image rights?
Why, do i look like him?
You tell me boss
Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:30:55 PM
Jaysus, have you no google?
looking for it now, in the mean time
http://www.dcu.ie/alumni/spring04/p30.html
tried looking for it quite a few times, but can't find anything really on it (bar the headline figure). Must go work now, but there doesn't seem to be much extra in that link you've provided. Aside from the report, which to my mind must have quite a few assumptions, you can start by detailing what expenses are unrecompensed - I am not against the grants at all, but I just don't believe either the report (which I presume refers to possible earnings and opportunities missed out on) or that any player is actually out of pocket due to playing gaa at intercounty level.
I also dont agree with the figure thats was bandied about regarding lost earnings. I feel it is too much but undoubtedly many Inter county players are left out of pocket by leaving early to get to training and , being unable to work at the weekends and in many cases having to take Fridays off as well to travel down for a saturday qualifier.
out a few pounds, if their life isnt appreciable improved by the facilites we put in place for them then they have one big choice they should make. You cant claim love of the jersey over love of the euro and then try and strike. I feel sorry for county players who think more of the money than the prestige and honour that the jersey gives them, but its their choice they should leave the GAA rather than try and destroy it, because thats what they are doing.
Quote from: M.Schofield on December 12, 2007, 01:25:59 PM
I also dont agree with the figure thats was bandied about regarding lost earnings. I feel it is too much but undoubtedly many Inter county players are left out of pocket by leaving early to get to training and , being unable to work at the weekends and in many cases having to take Fridays off as well to travel down for a saturday qualifier.
Very true. They are out of pocket.
Does the club player get mileage expenses for travelling to training, does he have to leave early too? Does he get all his gear and boots supplied? Does he get mileage expenses for matches? Does he get fed at matches? Does he get his physiotherapy paid? (some clubs won't, others will have fund raising nights where the players essentially pay for it then)
The county players do have to make a bigger commitment than club players, but they also have more extensive support structures around them than club players (disregarding the grants).
Guys very valid points but i suppose I should have quoted Bogball as my post was directed at himawhen he said that he doesnt belive county players are out of pocket. That was the only point I was trying to make, and I never mentioned the strike or the grant issue or whether IC players are more worthy than club players altho Radio I do agree that IC players make a substancially bigger commitment than club players.
An armagh defender, a Cork Goalkeeper and a Dublin forward go into a bar. Geezer says Donal Og, whos turn is it to get the drinks in. Agh says dessie sure arent we the only ones in the bar, he turns around to the barman and demands 3 pints on the house.
Quote from: M.Schofield on December 12, 2007, 01:38:49 PM
Guys very valid points but i suppose I should have quoted Bogball as my post was directed at himawhen he said that he doesnt belive county players are out of pocket. That was the only point I was trying to make, and I never mentioned the strike or the grant issue or whether IC players are more worthy than club players altho Radio I do agree that IC players make a substancially bigger commitment than club players.
I understand why they might be out of pocket, however there are several things to consider:
Firstly, IC players do not neccessarily make a bigger committment than club players - does your Leitrim hurler make more of a committment than a successful Kilkenny junior hurler? I don't think so, likewise a successful club footballer and a Kilkenny county footballer, these examples are extreme, however, I imagine it's much more widespread than many imagine.
Players in less successful counties may be out of pocket due to having to take time off and so on, not that likely, but they may be, players from successful counties, I very much doubt, employers tend to be more than generous with time off and tend to support the player where possible. Not in all cases, but I imagine in the majority. Players from successful counties tend to get many intangible benefits from their status, this includes in many cases jobs, promotions etc, not to mention some of the other benefits outlined by heganboy on another thread, but reproduced here for you all:
Quote from: heganboy on December 11, 2007, 05:19:32 PM
Now this imho could make for a more interesting debate within the gpa especially in the north. There are stories and innuendo and all the rest about cash being handed over to players for any auld excuse. Now that hmrc will be very aware of the 150 odd (allowing for wee 6 players resident in mexico) who are paying tax in the north receiving a taxable income from a foreign country, will the players want their affairs put in the spotlight?
Surely the scrutiny would end up (allegedly) actually putting them out of pocket.
Caveat, I'm not on record as stating that there are many county players who receive large cash incentives to play for their county, nor those who asked for large cash considerations to continue to play rather than retire. I am also not stating that there are county players receiving freebies (benefit in kind mr tax man) from their employers because of the attention being drawn to the company. I am also not stating that county players are driving round in company cars of companies the don't work for (undeclared income mr taxman). I am also not asking for the source of deposits on houses that have been acquired by county players as I'm sure they were all from the players well thought out and legal savings plans. I would also like to point out that at no stage did I even hint at former county players offering to come back for another year if a very lucrative financial package was put in place for the year. Those type of allegations would previously have been absolutely unprovable, and I would distance myself from them completely. However it would just take one hmrc audit to make for a very uncomfortable position for any player who may have been involved in anything that I am not stating that they did.
Looks like the managers may have a pass as there would be no public verification of payment, maybe that's why there's no GMA, the auld fella's are a bit cuter...
THE GREAT GAABOARD GRANT GROWL
When Dessie said he had a vision
True Gaels thought that he'd lost the plot.
They'd never take it on board we knew
Sure our council are a stubborn lot
Years passed since the grant's first mooting
In between Kerry nicked a couple more Sams
With Mayo on the end of their beatings
As Tyrone's titles were kind Kingdom alms.
They kept us waiting one March
Fifteen minutes we were made to stand
But we didn't mind this odd delay
And just listened to the Kinsale Pipe Band.
Dark Dessie then finally upped the anti
A strike was their action, 'nuclear!'
Would we be watching the cricket
Or the Ashes? – B'Jaysus the fear!
Our Nicky took wind from their sails
And said yes, you'll get Bertie's dosh
Dessie smiled, as did the genial Geezer
The season was saved, by gosh!
Twas Seany who started the ruckus
By posting the news on boul Toome
And as Dessie thought he'd had her settled
The Gaaboard ignited, Cyber-Boom!
Midlouth weighed in with a belter
And floored Hardstation with his fearsome Wee whelk
Bennyd proposed a new title
For the other gadderin at Derry's proud Elk.
Orangeman barged in all arms flinging
DMarsden dug deep the lighter pro-trench
Tram was taking no prisoners
Backed by Ziggy from the mid-Tyrone bench.
Darybo made an early appearance
But Bensars caught him clean, flush on.
Indiana wound up a haymaker
As pog sniped from his South Armagh bawn.
Drumanee fired all guns a-blazing
With Red Hand Luke fightin his side
Hardy weighed in with a right jab
And left Clubmember bleeding with pride.
Maximus donned his Roman artillery
Only to be pierced from Behind The Wire
Full Back smelt blood and threw uppers
And snapped Nag's head back into the mire.
Jinxy thought he'd scored a winner
But was met by a livid Bogball
Hegenboy saw a small opening
Shut closed by a Tyrone86's stone wall
RRHF led ruthlessly, feet first
DubsforSam caught the force on the head
His holiness used the Almighty
To put the discussion to bed
For 50 pages we dragged and we pulled
And just one thing became clear to all.
That despite all the biting and gouging
Not one budged over the wall.
Despite the slabbers and blabbers,
Name-calling and general points-scored,
Sure where would we be without it
Our unique and beloved gaaboard.
Guess I amn't such a GPA supporter after all if I don't get included.... :'(
Line 50....
Very good O'Neill! :D :D :D :D :D
O'Neill my key board salutes you ! Very good. :D :D ;D ;D ;D
O'Neill...your wasting your time on the board with a mind like that...I'll introduce to Mr Heaney...Seamus that is ;)
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 12, 2007, 12:57:45 PM
Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:30:55 PM
Jaysus, have you no google?
looking for it now, in the mean time
http://www.dcu.ie/alumni/spring04/p30.html
tried looking for it quite a few times, but can't find anything really on it (bar the headline figure). Must go work now, but there doesn't seem to be much extra in that link you've provided. Aside from the report, which to my mind must have quite a few assumptions, you can start by detailing what expenses are unrecompensed - I am not against the grants at all, but I just don't believe either the report (which I presume refers to possible earnings and opportunities missed out on) or that any player is actually out of pocket due to playing gaa at intercounty level.
you beat me to it Boggy
DMarsden - I also think this is all top level players - club and intercounty - that this refers to , if not, I dont see how there could be any differential.
I would love to see how people figure out how an intercounty player is worse off than a club player.
In actual fact due to intercounty players getting gear etc, I beleive and have done for quite some time, that the club players are actually financially worse off. So this whole gpa whinge is based on a lie.
Irish Examiner 13 December 2007
GAA scores a disastrous own goal by signing up to pay-for-play deal
By Diarmaid Ferriter
I HAD a dream the other night that quickly turned into a nightmare. A prominent Dublin barrister, Michael McDowell, formerly Minister for Justice, had somehow been returned to the Dáil and was appointed Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism.
Alongside Ryanair's chief executive Michael O'Leary, McDowell was presiding over a presentation at Ryan Park, formerly known as Croke Park. The occasion marked the end of the GAA's inter-county hurling championship and McDowell, who had controversially asserted at the start of the summer that some measure of inequality was necessary in the GAA to keep it competitive and profitable, was there to present large cheques to members of the winning Cork team, to the tune of €100,000 each.
The players on the Limerick team who had provided the opposition were somewhat downcast that their quest for another all-Ireland medal had been dashed, but there was considerable consolation in that they were each receiving a runners-up cheque for €50,000 each.
Outside Ryan Stadium, which had been sold by the GAA the previous summer to Michael O'Leary and promptly named after the late Tony Ryan, the founder of Ryanair, disgruntled grassroots members of the GAA were protesting loudly and held aloft banners and placards that denounced the privatisation of the national sporting heritage. A few of them had earlier thrown eggs at the Mercedes of Dessie Farrell who, as chief executive of the Gaelic Player's Association (GPA), led the negotiations that led to pay-for-play in the GAA.
I woke up as the din got louder and cursed my choice of bedtime reading the previous night — the three-page text of the agreement reached between the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism and the Irish Sports Council, GAA and the GPA.
Apparently, it is an agreement to recognise "the contribution of senior inter- county players and additional costs associated with enhancing team performance". The opening sentence proclaims: "Our senior inter-county players provide the window through which our National Games are viewed nationally and internationally." It recognises that successful teams prepare and train to the highest international standards for team sports and that "the current scheme of tax relief for professional sports people cannot be applied to Gaelic players because of their amateur status".
As a result, the minister intends to "introduce schemes to recognise the outstanding contribution of Gaelic inter-county players to our indigenous sport, to meet additional costs associated with elite team performance and to encourage aspiring teams and players to reach the highest levels of sporting endeavour".
It's a document that is full of euhemisms to avoid the use of the word "payment" but instead refers to "schemes", and it is a blatant attempt to copperfasten a two-tiered GAA.
The level of award available to teams "will be calculated on a sliding scale increasing with continuing involvement in the championships", ensuring the elite teams will be singled out for special treatment. The amount to be provided in 2008 to fund these "schemes" is €3.5 million, which might not seem like much, but this worrying development is not about the sums of money involved, but the beginning of the abandonment by the GAA of its amateur status. No matter how it is dressed up by the GAA or the Government, what it amounts to is the inauguration of the pay-for-play era.
The language of the agreement is completely at odds with the ethos of an amateur organisation and contains phrases such as "performance-based criteria". The section on "Player Responsibilities" reads like a job specification. Players need to "attend at least 80% of all training sessions", keep updated training logs and diaries and "demonstrate improvement through regular fitness testing".
The notions of choice and voluntarism, on which the GAA was built, do not get a look in and the contention that "all parties recognise the amateur status of the GAA and nothing in this agreement will undermine that amateur status" is disingenuous.
The GPA has also been Jesuitical in its use of language by maintaining that the agreement will actually ensure the survival of the amateur ethos of the GAA, while Dessie Farrell dismissed opponents within the GAA as a "disaffected rump".
That was an extraordinarily arrogant assertion. In truth, neither the GPA nor the GAA leadership knows what the GAA grassroots think of this new deal because they have deliberately refused to consult the rank-and-file members, a situation in stark contrast to the debate about the deletion of the GAA's Rule 42 to allow Croke Park to be used for the playing of non-GAA sports. Prior to that development, ordinary club members were given the opportunity to have their say, and there was a feeling that the groundbreaking decision they made was a democratic one.
The GPA, to its credit, has done a lot of work to ensure that GAA players are better treated, particularly in highlighting a harshness that was often evident in the way injured players were treated, and because of its efforts it is fair to assert that inter-county players are now treated a lot better than they used to be. But the GPA now has also ensured that respect for players will be measured through the payment of money and it has achieved this by pointing a gun to the head of the GAA top brass with its threatened strike action.
THE GAA responded by caving in to that threat and is now complicit in undermining the very things that have made it so special and unique in the modern sporting world and the sense that the organisation is an entity which we feel we hold in common ownership.
There will be further preoccupation on the part of the GPA with broadcasting rights and image rights. In reality, it is not concerned with the wider welfare of the organisation, but with the elite inter-county players who represent less than 1% of the GAA's playing population.
The exceptional skill, commitment and passion of those elite players are not doubted. But the most important point is that what they do is voluntary and is a choice they make.
Last weekend, former players defended the new arrangement. Colm O'Rourke, for example, suggested that "if the amateur ethos of the GAA is dead, then it is not the players who did the damage — in fact, they are very late coming to the table", a reference to the widespread practice of payments to the managers of GAA teams.
In a similar vein, Colm Kearney, the former Down player, insisted that "the GAA could do well to acknowledge that the brown envelope syndrome already exists. It has been a feature of GAA life for decades in terms of payment, perhaps through intermediaries, of certain coaches and managers and other support staff".
Both Kearney and O'Rourke are, of course, correct in their assertions. But wouldn't it be better to launch a campaign against those practices rather than formalising an elite payment system in an organisation that supposedly cherishes the notion that everybody in it is equal?
O'Neill, you are an unappreciated genius :D
Quote from: ONeill on December 13, 2007, 11:46:21 PM
Line 50....
Well hardly surprised I get taken out illegaly... ;D
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 14, 2007, 04:29:40 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 13, 2007, 11:46:21 PM
Line 50....
Well hardly surprised I get taken out illegaly... ;D
And it was a Tyrone man too Dubsforsam, you must have started it ;)
Ill be ringing Feargal Logan the night
Payment and Rule 11 : perusing a case study of a small rural club in Fermangh and the effects the demand for money has had on the local Belleek GAA club will surely demonstrate that money is the root of all evil in the GAA. apparently this small rural club has been decimated since a few members of the club held the executive to ransom by demanding to be paid to manage the Belleek senior football team.
Quote from: his holiness nb on December 14, 2007, 04:39:17 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 14, 2007, 04:29:40 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 13, 2007, 11:46:21 PM
Line 50....
Well hardly surprised I get taken out illegaly... ;D
And it was a Tyrone man too Dubsforsam, you must have started it ;)
Well you know what happened.......He slipped trying to dive and thats why his feet caught me..... ;D
The best moment of my life. Getting mentioned in a poem by the great O'Neill. I'm all a glow. I think I'll print it in colour, wrap it up and give it to the woman as her Christmas box, with my line underlined in a sort of santa claus red. Bet she'd love that. And a bit of tinsel round it.
Joe Brolly mentioned an "imminent legal case" in respect of the grants and the GAA's 'amateur' code in his column in yesterday's Gaelic Life, though didn't elaborate on whether he himself was behind any impending litigation.
There may be trouble ahead...
I notice Jarleth taking a step back and appealing for unity in his article. Sensible.
QuoteBy John O'Brien
Sunday December 16 2007
Hopes that the thorny issue of player grants had been settled after last week's hastily agreed compromise by Central Council have receded, with the news that the decision to approve the payments in principle is to be challenged at the GAA's Disputes Resolution Authority.
The case is being taken by a group of grassroots' dissidents, including Tyrone man Mark Conway, Longford businessman Joe O'Brien and Donal McAnallen, brother of late Tyrone captain, Cormac.
According to the group, the payments are in contravention of the GAA's Rule 11 which governs the Association's amateur status. Nor, they contend, did Central Council have the authority to make a decision which they claim impacts on the GAA's official guide.
"The only body that can make an alteration to Rule 11 or any rule is Congress," Conway said yesterday.
For the GAA, and president Nickey Brennan in particular, it is a worrying development. Although details on how the funds would be disbursed were sketchy following last week's meeting, it was agreed that county boards would not be part of the process and it was this concession that shepherded the controversial scheme through a stormy session and averted the threat of a players' strike.
The GAA has claimed all along that as the money is not coming from them it doesn't impinge on Rule 11, and at the end of last week's meeting it was proposed that an amendment be added to the agreement saying that all parties involved "state their absolute commitment to the maintenance of the amateur status".
For their opponents, however, such words ring hollow. In their submission to the DRA, which they filed through Omagh solicitor Paddy Fahy on Thursday, the group cited Mark Vaughan's appeal against suspension by the Leinster Council in 2005. In its decision in Vaughan's favour the DRA stated: "The tribunal is bound to interpret the rules as they are, not as it might wish them to be, and to do otherwise would be an abdication of our obligation as an arbitral tribunal of law."
The group believes that just because the various parties reaffirmed their commitment to the amateur status that does not bind it in fact.
"As far as we're concerned it's a spurious comment," said Conway. "It's like Albert Pierrepoint putting a noose around someone's neck and saying: 'By hanging this person I am reaffirming my belief in the sanctity of life.' We might say it, we might put it on paper -- but people don't believe it. It doesn't stack up."
At the very least the case reflects the robustness of the opposition that exists towards the principle of GAA players receiving grants in any shape or form. Two weeks ago a crowd of 400 voiced their opposition at a meeting in Toome, Co Antrim, and a second meeting will take place at the Cavan Crystal Hotel on Wednesday evening. Though opposition remains centred in the north, a website established as a rallying point for dissenters has attracted 550 emails.
Last week, Conway resigned his positions with Club Tyrone and the GAA's National Audit Committee in protest at the grants and he was subsequently joined by McAnallen, who quit as secretary of the Higher Education Council, citing his disillusionment at the direction the Association was taking.
The case will be a landmark one. The DRA was established in 2005 largely to curb the growing trend of players seeking redress against suspension in the High Court -- and for a body of the Association, Central Council, to be taken to task on an issue relating to one of its own rules is an unprecedented development. Whether the DRA even has the jurisdiction to hear the case may be the first question to be decided on.
The group are hopeful the case will proceed and a decision will be made within seven days.
Concerns have been raised at several county conventions and they expect at least one motion to be brought to Congress in Sligo next April. "We'll take this as far as we can take it," said Conway. "This isn't going to go away."
- John O'Brien
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/grant-rebels-take-on-gaa-1248638.html
Nice to see mark getting a few more column inches. i was beginning to wory for him after the drama of his initial "resignation" had died down.
It's sad you feel the need to continuously attack someone who's done so much for the GAA.
Yes, everyone is equal but some are more equal than others
Quote from: DMarsden on December 16, 2007, 12:36:07 PM
Yes, everyone is equal but some are more equal than others
You're talking nonsense again, could you put that in English.
Quote from: DMarsden on December 16, 2007, 12:36:07 PM
Yes, everyone is equal but some are more equal than others
GPA members been a very god example
Quote from: DMarsden on December 16, 2007, 12:36:07 PM
Yes, everyone is equal but some are more equal than others
Which version of Animal Farm is that from ;)
In a mirror image of Republican politics -every one is out of step except the purist dissidents who cannot allow the evil vast majority to triumph.A rearguard action like the tactics of the past presidents in trying to stop the membership discussing/voting on Rule 42.
I wouldnt mind but pure amateurism is a Victorian English "Gentlemans" concept ;D devised to keep the riff raff at work in the mines,mills etc and not have them wasting productivity time by engaging in leasure pursuits.
That was reserved for "gentlemen"
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 16, 2007, 12:32:23 PM
It's sad you feel the need to continuously attack someone who's done so much for the GAA.
You mean the way you attack other people who have done so much for the GAA but you don't agree with????
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 16, 2007, 04:28:54 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 16, 2007, 12:32:23 PM
It's sad you feel the need to continuously attack someone who's done so much for the GAA.
You mean the way you attack other people who have done so much for the GAA but you don't agree with????
Who have I attacked?
Greedy county players? Well excuse me for criticising those who bullied and blackmailed the GAA.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 16, 2007, 04:31:06 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 16, 2007, 04:28:54 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 16, 2007, 12:32:23 PM
It's sad you feel the need to continuously attack someone who's done so much for the GAA.
You mean the way you attack other people who have done so much for the GAA but you don't agree with????
Who have I attacked?
Greedy county players? Well excuse me for criticising those who bullied and blackmailed the GAA.
Dessie Farrell doesn't get anything from the grants and has given most of his life to the GAA etc.....people like Liam Griffen etc who support the grants and have given their life to teh GAA as much as Mark Conway or anyone like that.....people who haven't fought this issue for the last 5 years htat everyone has known about it...
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 16, 2007, 05:17:06 PMDessie Farrell doesn't get anything from the grants and has given most of his life to the GAA etc.....people like Liam Griffen etc who support the grants and have given their life to teh GAA as much as Mark Conway or anyone like that.....people who haven't fought this issue for the last 5 years htat everyone has known about it...
Would Dessie be working in a very high profile national job if it weren't for his committment to the GAA? Would he be paid a salary verging on 6 figures if it weren't for his committment to the GAA? Would he have the dubious honour of having the ear of the taoiseach? Would he have written and published his life story if it weren't for his committment to the GAA?
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 16, 2007, 05:41:09 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 16, 2007, 05:17:06 PMDessie Farrell doesn't get anything from the grants and has given most of his life to the GAA etc.....people like Liam Griffen etc who support the grants and have given their life to teh GAA as much as Mark Conway or anyone like that.....people who haven't fought this issue for the last 5 years htat everyone has known about it...
Would Dessie be working in a very high profile national job if it weren't for his committment to the GAA? Would he be paid a salary verging on 6 figures if it weren't for his committment to the GAA? Would he have the dubious honour of having the ear of the taoiseach? Would he have written and published his life story if it weren't for his committment to the GAA?
so what...big deal...get over it. Come the new season and in the committees I'll continue to volunteer...not a bother. I think I'm bright enogh to realise our club wont fall on some dick head grant from the government. Were much bigger and stronger than that.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 16, 2007, 05:59:45 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 16, 2007, 05:41:09 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 16, 2007, 05:17:06 PMDessie Farrell doesn't get anything from the grants and has given most of his life to the GAA etc.....people like Liam Griffen etc who support the grants and have given their life to teh GAA as much as Mark Conway or anyone like that.....people who haven't fought this issue for the last 5 years htat everyone has known about it...
Would Dessie be working in a very high profile national job if it weren't for his committment to the GAA? Would he be paid a salary verging on 6 figures if it weren't for his committment to the GAA? Would he have the dubious honour of having the ear of the taoiseach? Would he have written and published his life story if it weren't for his committment to the GAA?
so what...big deal...get over it. Come the new season and in the committees I'll continue to volunteer...not a bother. I think I'm bright enogh to realise our club wont fall on some dick head grant from the government. Were much bigger and stronger than that.
That's great Max, delighted to hear it, now, what does that have to do with my questions for DFS??
Edit - I understand now, you posted on the wrong thread.
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 16, 2007, 05:41:09 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 16, 2007, 05:17:06 PMDessie Farrell doesn't get anything from the grants and has given most of his life to the GAA etc.....people like Liam Griffen etc who support the grants and have given their life to teh GAA as much as Mark Conway or anyone like that.....people who haven't fought this issue for the last 5 years htat everyone has known about it...
Would Dessie be working in a very high profile national job if it weren't for his committment to the GAA? Would he be paid a salary verging on 6 figures if it weren't for his committment to the GAA? Would he have the dubious honour of having the ear of the taoiseach? Would he have written and published his life story if it weren't for his committment to the GAA?
Would county administrators be getting paid if it wasn't for teh GAA, would coaches/trainers/managers be getting paid but for the GAA, would students be getting grants if not for teh GAA???
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 16, 2007, 07:07:42 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 16, 2007, 05:41:09 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 16, 2007, 05:17:06 PMDessie Farrell doesn't get anything from the grants and has given most of his life to the GAA etc.....people like Liam Griffen etc who support the grants and have given their life to teh GAA as much as Mark Conway or anyone like that.....people who haven't fought this issue for the last 5 years htat everyone has known about it...
Would Dessie be working in a very high profile national job if it weren't for his committment to the GAA? Would he be paid a salary verging on 6 figures if it weren't for his committment to the GAA? Would he have the dubious honour of having the ear of the taoiseach? Would he have written and published his life story if it weren't for his committment to the GAA?
Would county administrators be getting paid if it wasn't for teh GAA, would coaches/trainers/managers be getting paid but for the GAA, would students be getting grants if not for teh GAA???
No, they wouldn't, but you or I didn't say "(Insert name of county administrator)... doesn't get anything from the grants and has given most of his life to the GAA", you did say that about Farrell, I was just pointing out that Farrell has got a damned good return from his GAA committment, whereas to my eyes, your original comment inferred that Dessie had sacrificed his life for the GAA and got nothing in return.
I love the way the GPA supporters launch an attack on those who don't support pay for play - Mark Conway is now being accused of courting the press and being an attention seeker ! A smokescreen or what ! :D :D ;D ;D
This Dessie Farrell who gave his life to the GAA for no reward...
Is he the same Dessie Farrell who was on a 3-man interview panel for the GPA Chief Executive job, along with Donal O'Neill and Frank McNamee, about 5 or 6 years ago, and gave the job to a certain Dessie Farrell?
Yes, indeed - various people were interviewed, before Dessie decided that Dessie was the best man for the job.
What a selfless act that was.
The Mayo panel immediately issued a press release congratulating him on his generosity.
:D :D :D That's a great way of getting a job !! By the way, is he actually paid by the GPA ? I don't want to know how much - but is Dessie paid ? Is it a full time post - I'm sure he has a lot of press statements to issue at the minute ON BEHLAF OF COUNTY PANELS ETC ? ;D ;D and Conor Mortimer ( sorry I forgot about him there for a minute ! )
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 16, 2007, 11:50:52 AM
QuoteBy John O'Brien
Sunday December 16 2007
Hopes that the thorny issue of player grants had been settled after last week's hastily agreed compromise by Central Council have receded, with the news that the decision to approve the payments in principle is to be challenged at the GAA's Disputes Resolution Authority.
The case is being taken by a group of grassroots' dissidents, including Tyrone man Mark Conway, Longford businessman Joe O'Brien and Donal McAnallen, brother of late Tyrone captain, Cormac.
According to the group, the payments are in contravention of the GAA's Rule 11 which governs the Association's amateur status. Nor, they contend, did Central Council have the authority to make a decision which they claim impacts on the GAA's official guide.
"The only body that can make an alteration to Rule 11 or any rule is Congress," Conway said yesterday.
For the GAA, and president Nickey Brennan in particular, it is a worrying development. Although details on how the funds would be disbursed were sketchy following last week's meeting, it was agreed that county boards would not be part of the process and it was this concession that shepherded the controversial scheme through a stormy session and averted the threat of a players' strike.
The GAA has claimed all along that as the money is not coming from them it doesn't impinge on Rule 11, and at the end of last week's meeting it was proposed that an amendment be added to the agreement saying that all parties involved "state their absolute commitment to the maintenance of the amateur status".
For their opponents, however, such words ring hollow. In their submission to the DRA, which they filed through Omagh solicitor Paddy Fahy on Thursday, the group cited Mark Vaughan's appeal against suspension by the Leinster Council in 2005. In its decision in Vaughan's favour the DRA stated: "The tribunal is bound to interpret the rules as they are, not as it might wish them to be, and to do otherwise would be an abdication of our obligation as an arbitral tribunal of law."
The group believes that just because the various parties reaffirmed their commitment to the amateur status that does not bind it in fact.
"As far as we're concerned it's a spurious comment," said Conway. "It's like Albert Pierrepoint putting a noose around someone's neck and saying: 'By hanging this person I am reaffirming my belief in the sanctity of life.' We might say it, we might put it on paper -- but people don't believe it. It doesn't stack up."
At the very least the case reflects the robustness of the opposition that exists towards the principle of GAA players receiving grants in any shape or form. Two weeks ago a crowd of 400 voiced their opposition at a meeting in Toome, Co Antrim, and a second meeting will take place at the Cavan Crystal Hotel on Wednesday evening. Though opposition remains centred in the north, a website established as a rallying point for dissenters has attracted 550 emails.
Last week, Conway resigned his positions with Club Tyrone and the GAA's National Audit Committee in protest at the grants and he was subsequently joined by McAnallen, who quit as secretary of the Higher Education Council, citing his disillusionment at the direction the Association was taking.
The case will be a landmark one. The DRA was established in 2005 largely to curb the growing trend of players seeking redress against suspension in the High Court -- and for a body of the Association, Central Council, to be taken to task on an issue relating to one of its own rules is an unprecedented development. Whether the DRA even has the jurisdiction to hear the case may be the first question to be decided on.
The group are hopeful the case will proceed and a decision will be made within seven days.
Concerns have been raised at several county conventions and they expect at least one motion to be brought to Congress in Sligo next April. "We'll take this as far as we can take it," said Conway. "This isn't going to go away."
- John O'Brien
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/grant-rebels-take-on-gaa-1248638.html
It's interesting they have Pat Fahy as their solicitor. He has some record for winning cases and is probably one of the best defence solicitors in Ulster.
QuoteMark Conway is now being accused of courting the press and being an attention seeker
In fairness we all know how much the GPA avoid courting the press and their disdain for attention seeking! :D
QuoteJoe Brolly mentioned an "imminent legal case" in respect of the grants and the GAA's 'amateur' code in his column in yesterday's Gaelic Life, though didn't elaborate on whether he himself was behind any impending litigation.
Had a lengthy conversation about this yesterday with one of those directly involved in the legal action. Brolly is closely involved but is staying well back in recognition of the fact that he would become a target of opponents who would dismiss it as a publicity stunt by him. There is an active countrywide recruitment campaign underway as the opponents are very aware that the significant volume of opposition up to now has been originating from Ulster. That in itself could be an interesting process as there is little doubt in my mind that, in general (dangerous statement this I know but here goes) those involved in the GAA in Ulster do see the world in general differently to those elsewhere in Ireland.
I have to say that I'm still uncertain either way on this whole issue but I do hold the view that if there is a groundswell it will bring down the deal as it stands. I say so on the basis that the deal benefits, at most and stretching it, 2,000 people - many of whom were not that pushed in the first place and if it gets hot(ter) would have no appetite to be defending the case in their local town / village / club / pub.
The GPA has been created and continues to exist entirely due to the incapability and / or unwillingness of County Boards to look after their players correctly. I say that from personal experience and direct observation. For all the p[plaudits that Paraic Duffy got for his role as Welfare Officer, that hasn't changed. If it did, and it wouldn't take too much imagination to do so... much of the "we need somebody..." reasoning that makes the GPA as it is today relevant is gone. That is not to say that there shouldn't be some form of organisation to represent the interests of players, and that then raises the second interesting point which has probably been covered in the 50 odd pages that precede this one but I'll throw it in anyway - after this what is the role of the GPA and who will be at the front given that there is no new blood coming through. (If there is why is McGeeney at the top table and I heard first hand last week that they had previously asked a 50 something retiring TD to join their executive earlier this year - and he never kicked a ball in anger in his life)
Paddypastit -
With regards to the GPA's next challenges I have heard that the 3 main points of focus now will be -
1 - Reversing the seeding in the Munster football championship - which they have complained about already
2 - Reversing the situation Antrim find themselves in with regards the Liam McCarthy cup
3 - Ensuring teams in the Tommy Murphy Cup get a 2nd chance in the qualifiers....
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 16, 2007, 11:05:38 PM
Paddypastit -
With regards to the GPA's next challenges I have heard that the 3 main points of focus now will be -
1 - Reversing the seeding in the Munster football championship - which they have complained about already
2 - Reversing the situation Antrim find themselves in with regards the Liam McCarthy cup
3 - Ensuring teams in the Tommy Murphy Cup get a 2nd chance in the qualifiers....
Sorry, but the idea of the GPA attempting to try to get changes like this pushed through is a complete joke.
We have leaders, let them lead. We have players, let them play.
I would doubt that there is a sports organisation in the world that does not have some competition structure or other that some of the competing teams are not happy about for whatever reason.
We pride ourselves on being a truely democratic organisation (albeit that that ideology has been damaged with the way the grants issue has been pushed through) but players having power to dictate competition structures among other things is simply a step too far.
Quote from: orangeman on December 16, 2007, 08:30:59 PM
Mark Conway is now being accused of courting the press and being an attention seeker !
Isn't he?
Quote from: DMarsden on December 16, 2007, 11:33:41 PM
Quote from: orangeman on December 16, 2007, 08:30:59 PM
Mark Conway is now being accused of courting the press and being an attention seeker !
Isn't he?
I don't believe so, my opinion is that he's standing up for a principal he believes in, and this happens to be something the press are interested in.
To try and 'take him out' of the argument by trying to pedal this untruth is crass, belligerent and ignorant and does nothing for your own point of view
By all means try to argue your point, but resorting to these sort of tactics is just standard GPA fare these days and getting rather tiresome - does Dessie do media workshops for you people?
Targetting Farrell when you can't undermine his argument ring any bells stephenite?
Quote from: DMarsden on December 16, 2007, 11:47:56 PM
Targetting Farrell when you can't undermine his argument ring any bells stephenite?
None whatsoever - I don't have to undermine his argument as I agree with some of it and have been consistent on that. He is a woeful figure head for the GPA with the media savvy of a spoon but that's a different argument altogehter
Quote from: paddypastit on December 16, 2007, 10:55:39 PM
QuoteJoe Brolly mentioned an "imminent legal case" in respect of the grants and the GAA's 'amateur' code in his column in yesterday's Gaelic Life, though didn't elaborate on whether he himself was behind any impending litigation.
Had a lengthy conversation about this yesterday with one of those directly involved in the legal action. Brolly is closely involved but is staying well back in recognition of the fact that he would become a target of opponents who would dismiss it as a publicity stunt by him. There is an active countrywide recruitment campaign underway as the opponents are very aware that the significant volume of opposition up to now has been originating from Ulster. That in itself could be an interesting process as there is little doubt in my mind that, in general (dangerous statement this I know but here goes) those involved in the GAA in Ulster do see the world in general differently to those elsewhere in Ireland.
I have to say that I'm still uncertain either way on this whole issue but I do hold the view that if there is a groundswell it will bring down the deal as it stands. I say so on the basis that the deal benefits, at most and stretching it, 2,000 people - many of whom were not that pushed in the first place and if it gets hot(ter) would have no appetite to be defending the case in their local town / village / club / pub.
The GPA has been created and continues to exist entirely due to the incapability and / or unwillingness of County Boards to look after their players correctly. I say that from personal experience and direct observation. For all the p[plaudits that Paraic Duffy got for his role as Welfare Officer, that hasn't changed. If it did, and it wouldn't take too much imagination to do so... much of the "we need somebody..." reasoning that makes the GPA as it is today relevant is gone. That is not to say that there shouldn't be some form of organisation to represent the interests of players, and that then raises the second interesting point which has probably been covered in the 50 odd pages that precede this one but I'll throw it in anyway - after this what is the role of the GPA and who will be at the front given that there is no new blood coming through. (If there is why is McGeeney at the top table and I heard first hand last week that they had previously asked a 50 something retiring TD to join their executive earlier this year - and he never kicked a ball in anger in his life)
Good post paddy, some good points there. Was the TD, Glennon?
DFS, those issues you say the GPA are going to address, why did they not address them before now? These are issues that were important last year too, did the leadership lack the vision? Did they just not have empathy with the Mayo hurlers/Wicklow footballers?
I believe the opposition to the Grants issue should be stopped. This has the potential to become an unnecessarily divisive issue which will have NO long term benefit to the GAA. It has originated from an essentially Ulster says NO mindset and we all know some examples for that:
Paisley says 'No to truck with the 'Road to Rome and C Haughey', SF says no to 'Stormont and Policing' and politically where are we now????
I don't think any part of the GAA has any intention of EVER agreeing to Pay for Play and that is the bottom line, and from a positive point of view, whether intentional or not the GPA and the 'Against the Grants pressure group' has consolidated that. The Government will be delighted to know that there is opposition to the Grants so that they will after this year 'drop it like a hot brick'. There are many elements within the GAA getting paid at different levels and this has been the situation for many years. Being a volunteer is very much a 'voluntary' decision, and I am one of those people but I also believe that each year there are fewer people WILLING to give of there energy and time for 'free'. However, I don't think that an internal revolution will change that fact. Our Association is very strong but it is still capable of imploding and how are Sporting and Political enemies would love to see that. It is a time for COOL and WISE heads to take control of the situation and look at the BIG picture. I think Enda Gormly's analysis was not far away and I also know that Mark Conway would certainly not want to see a 'fragmented' GAA.
Stolen from CES at the naomhgall website.
In days of olde in Ireland when life was harsh opponents of authority were forced to meet in backwoods and barns in the dead of night and spoke in whispers lest unseen ears might bear witness to their revolutionary intent. Times were hard and the evil authorities meted out such unimaginable cruelties to those who dared be a dissenter that generations have carried the scars. But times change and the backwoods and barns aren't used any more; indeed the smell of laundered diesel wafting from most country barns now would near be enough to kill a cow. So in today's materialistic world holed up in a penthouse suite of a top Dublin hotel for the past three months the hierarchy of the GPA have been meticulously planning their assault on the GAA authority and foot soldiers. "Here Dessie, that's room service. What do you want for lunch?" "I'll begin with the prawn cocktail, no, actually make that the smoked salmon, then roast sirloin of beef and, ah, I know I shouldn't but a bit of black forest gateaux to finish it off. Oh and the usual tea and coffee all round." "Sure no one drinks it." "Get it anyway. And Donal og get the drinks cabinet refilled." But what about the nutritionist Dessie?" "Bollocks to the nutritionist! Who's going to know and anyway sure can't we always find an excuse?" "But shouldn't we be acting as role models for the kids?" "Donal og what in the name of Jaysus is wrong with you? Sure aren't we showing the kids of Ireland how to squeeze for that extra buck?" "Euro". "What?" "It's euro Dessie". "For feck sake Donal og what's wrong with ye?" "Sorry Dessie I had been watching dvds of old matches yesterday but I'll shake it off." "Good man Donal og, we don't want to be showing any signs of weakness now. Anyway we better get these couple of issues dealt with. Kieran, Enda, turn that body building dvd off and come on over here". "Right Dessie, what's on the agenda? Here this is like a real meeting". "Now Kieran don't be thinking like that or the next thing you'll know you'll be out a few times a week without any personal benefit. Ever see the stress some of those real committee guys come under? And the abuse they get? Not for me, no thank you. That's for mugs. Anyway boys we have to sort out these journalists, ex-player pundits, all those website contributors and that troublesome crowd up north. Those bastards are always causing trouble for us down here in the Republic". "Now Dessie". "Sorry Enda forgot there but sure you know what I mean". "So what's the plan of attack Dessie?" "Well Kieran that's exactly the word, we'll attack those bastards with all we have. Enda you kick it off with that Paddy Heaney and Donal og get stuck into that fairy Brolly. Never liked him anyway, blowing kisses to the crowd when he scored. In fact it wouldn't do any harm if he got a threatening phone call. It's time to get nasty lads so don't hold back. As for the websites we'll work in relays using different names so it'll look like there's more of us. We'll keep bombarding the boards and get the rest of the lads to do the same. What about Kevin McGourty in Antrim?" "Dessie he's alright for talking most of the time but sure he can't spell". "Ok". "So what about that rump of malcontents up north Dessie?" "Brilliant Enda, that's what we'll call them but even better we'll call them a small rump and describe them like dissident republicans refusing to move with the times. Sure no one down here will want to know them. Right lads this meeting has been going on ten minutes, time to wrap it up. Everyone know what we have to do?" "Sure", "Aye", "What about that Jarleth Burns, who's tackling him?" "We'll just leave him for now Donal og, he's a wee bit big, We'll sort them other feckers out first". "No problem Dessie". "Right lads where's that fecking lunch? Phone the manager and tell him not to mess with us".
Jaysus, whatever your viewpoint in this argument, that's shite.
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 17, 2007, 12:05:12 AM
Quote from: paddypastit on December 16, 2007, 10:55:39 PM
QuoteJoe Brolly mentioned an "imminent legal case" in respect of the grants and the GAA's 'amateur' code in his column in yesterday's Gaelic Life, though didn't elaborate on whether he himself was behind any impending litigation.
Had a lengthy conversation about this yesterday with one of those directly involved in the legal action. Brolly is closely involved but is staying well back in recognition of the fact that he would become a target of opponents who would dismiss it as a publicity stunt by him. There is an active countrywide recruitment campaign underway as the opponents are very aware that the significant volume of opposition up to now has been originating from Ulster. That in itself could be an interesting process as there is little doubt in my mind that, in general (dangerous statement this I know but here goes) those involved in the GAA in Ulster do see the world in general differently to those elsewhere in Ireland.
I have to say that I'm still uncertain either way on this whole issue but I do hold the view that if there is a groundswell it will bring down the deal as it stands. I say so on the basis that the deal benefits, at most and stretching it, 2,000 people - many of whom were not that pushed in the first place and if it gets hot(ter) would have no appetite to be defending the case in their local town / village / club / pub.
The GPA has been created and continues to exist entirely due to the incapability and / or unwillingness of County Boards to look after their players correctly. I say that from personal experience and direct observation. For all the p[plaudits that Paraic Duffy got for his role as Welfare Officer, that hasn't changed. If it did, and it wouldn't take too much imagination to do so... much of the "we need somebody..." reasoning that makes the GPA as it is today relevant is gone. That is not to say that there shouldn't be some form of organisation to represent the interests of players, and that then raises the second interesting point which has probably been covered in the 50 odd pages that precede this one but I'll throw it in anyway - after this what is the role of the GPA and who will be at the front given that there is no new blood coming through. (If there is why is McGeeney at the top table and I heard first hand last week that they had previously asked a 50 something retiring TD to join their executive earlier this year - and he never kicked a ball in anger in his life)
Good post paddy, some good points there. Was the TD, Glennon?
DFS, those issues you say the GPA are going to address, why did they not address them before now? These are issues that were important last year too, did the leadership lack the vision? Did they just not have empathy with the Mayo hurlers/Wicklow footballers?
Bogball - They have already complained about the decision to seed the Munster Championship a number of months ago....and have been in discussions about changing the rules for Antrim hurlers already....
Just reading on the RTE website, Colm Bradley, Fermanagh senior footballer had a motion put to Fermanagh AGM last night urging all counties to debate the grants issue thoroughly. The story is set to run for another while it seems.
That's the GPA supporters creating a smokescreen again !!!! :D ;D
Quote from: orangeman on December 17, 2007, 02:19:33 PM
Just reading on the RTE website, Colm Bradley, Fermanagh senior footballer had a motion put to Fermanagh AGM last night urging all counties to debate the grants issue thoroughly. The story is set to run for another while it seems.
The most sensible way IMO is to have this debated at congress and a vote taken, that they have tried to push through at Central Council level is fairly indicative of how the GAA have approached this issue and I really have to question their motives on this. Are they so beholden to sponsors and TV money that the thought of the strike allows them to sell off the family china?
I know the arguments that the decision to allow Central Council deal with this has been in the public domain for long enough but it's a moot point really, a lot of the ordinary members of our association are unaware at the best of times what is going on with the political machinations of the association at the highest level, they're too busy marking pitches and taking the kids training
The decision to go ahead with County Boards paying the grants should only be taken after a vote from congress allows it - probably not going to happen.
The compromise for me would be that congress allow for Central Council to hire a reputable accounting or consultancy firm to distribute the grants on behalf of the GAA.
Congress (ergo the members) need to be given the final say, as happened with Rule 42, but this is so much more important.
Quote from: Real Talk on December 17, 2007, 12:13:53 AM
I believe the opposition to the Grants issue should be stopped. This has the potential to become an unnecessarily divisive issue which will have NO long term benefit to the GAA. It has originated from an essentially Ulster says NO mindset and we all know some examples for that:
Paisley says 'No to truck with the 'Road to Rome and C Haughey', SF says no to 'Stormont and Policing' and politically where are we now????
This has got to be the weakest arguement I've heard on the issue.
Lies damn lies and statistics...
The report on the 100,000 Euro that county players stand to lose makes a number of interesting assumptions:
- that the county player will not be promoted because he puts in less hours on the job than a non county player
- that the county player is in a job where overtime accrues and is not paid for time spent at football related events
- that the county player gets no compensation monetary or otherwise for his efforts
I think that everyone of those assumptions is a fallacy, and undermines the report in itself.
I do feel that the GPA has been an agent for change for the better for the players, especially with calling the county boards to account for their treatment of injuries to players, and ensuring that training gear etc is funded by the board. However I think that they should have concentrated efforts on making sure club players were looked after before springing the pay for play/ grant issue. Hearts and minds and all that...
By the way I'd like to hear thoughts on managers getting paid, is this something that should be stamped out?
Quote from: heganboy on December 18, 2007, 01:42:39 PM
By the way I'd like to hear thoughts on managers getting paid, is this something that should be stamped out?
:D
Where've you been heganboy? Theres plenty of thoughts in the previous 50 odd pages without anybody regurgitating it. Hopefully the search facility is useful
I know its there in many forms, however its mostly been as an afterthought to the players thing, and in the mudslinging around "how dare he/she comment sure their club has been paying their manager for years"
I'll start one if there isn't one there.
Did the star ever print loan sharks letter that was debated here a month or so ago?
Quote from: tram on December 23, 2007, 09:19:42 PM
Tyrone ace to walk away from GPA
Double All-Ireland winning Tyrone defender Philip Jordan has said it is unlikely he will remain a member of the Gaelic Players Association as he is unhappy over its call for strike action and the move towards grants.
Thanks Philly, it's only your like, and your like only, that will guarantee the ethos of this association, the GAA, and all it stands for, and very proud I am that you're a fellow Tír Eoghain man. I salute you a chara, go raibh míle maith agat.
Fair play to Phillip, it's time for other lads in the same position to stand up and be counted.
Fair play to you Phillip for standing up and been counted.
Hopefully more players will come out and stand beside you.
I would love to see other players from other counties stand up
and show that this isn't a protest by the Ulster gaels.
Good luck and happy christmas.
Quote from: give her dixie on December 24, 2007, 11:53:02 AM
that this isn't a protest by the Ulster gaels.
I'm afraid the evidence to date is that it is very much the usual suspects from the usual Counties who are usually against any change of any sort.
Still Nollaig Shona díobh go léir.
just for the record i'm from dublin and i'm against it - and i've yet to meet anyone within my GAA circle in dublin who are for it -are we part of the usual suspects? you can't make ridiculous sweeping statements like that.
Jordan is an admirable character. But Jaysus, take the govn money and give it to your club. Clubs have been doing it for years.
What about his high profile club mate, did he not favour the strike action ???
Quote from: ONeill on December 24, 2007, 01:39:30 PM
Jordan is an admirable character. But Jaysus, take the govn money and give it to your club. Clubs have been doing it for years.
If he leaves the GPA he will still be receiving a grant though*, so it would make little difference. ???
*assuming the grant actually goes ahead.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 24, 2007, 02:53:04 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 24, 2007, 01:39:30 PM
Jordan is an admirable character. But Jaysus, take the govn money and give it to your club. Clubs have been doing it for years.
If he leaves the GPA he will still be receiving a grant though*, so it would make little difference. ???
*assuming the grant actually goes ahead.
when is this going to be decided?
Quote from: Carmen Stateside on December 24, 2007, 02:57:48 PM
when is this going to be decided?
Who knows.
There will undoubtedly be appeals of some sort from the losing side after the first decision is reached, so it really is up in the air.
Quote
I'm afraid the evidence to date is that it is very much the usual suspects from the usual Counties who are usually against any change of any sort.
You wish.
Quote from: tram on December 23, 2007, 09:19:42 PM
QuoteTyrone ace to walk away from GPA
Double All-Ireland winning Tyrone defender Philip Jordan has said it is unlikely he will remain a member of the Gaelic Players Association as he is unhappy over its call for strike action and the move towards grants.
Jordan is one of the first high profile intercounty players to come out heavily against the GPA following a growing disquiet amongst grassroots club people at the introduction of grants for intercounty players.
The wing back is currently a member of the players' body but says he is unlikely to renew his subscription in 2008 as he is unhappy with the direction that the organisation is moving.
"The whole threat of strike action has me turned against the GPA. The leadership of the GPA said they had a lot of support from the grassroots to go on strike, but it wasn't these people I listened to," revealed Jordan.
"I think there was no public support for strike action. They should have let it come to a strike because that would have been the death of the GPA.
"Personally, I voted against strike action and I am not in favour of grants. I would have played anyway."
Jordan feels that the grants could lead to further payment to players which could lead to the end of the amateur status of the GAA.
"My personal opinion is that what makes the GAA so great is the fact that you have to sacrifice so much to play football matches.
"I would never like to see that change and I think the grants could be the start of something bigger.
"I probably won't become a member of the GPA for the New Year now. The things they should have been focusing on have been forgotten about," Jordan told the News of the World.
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=87262
Read last week in the IDMoS that if he is receipt of a "grant" he will give it to the Moy.
I notice no mention of the fact that he critiscised some of the "public" objectors to the grants for their own hypocrisy in being members of clubs that pay the money to managers etc and now campaigning against players getting it!!!
Dessie will most likely come out and attepmt to say he wasn't a member in the first place or use some other form of smokescreen to deflect this news !
How many is that out of the GPA membership now that have dissented? Spitting your toys out of the pram because the collective membership didn't vote how you'd like is skin to leaving the country when the party you vote for doesn't win an election.
Fair play to Phillip Jordan - an exceptional, courageous and principled position from one of tyrones greatest ever stars, beleieve you me this is only the tip of the ice berg, more will follow, but it takes courage to be the first. Wait for flak and personal abuse from the unprincipled rabble on here, but sure they need insults, gagging nd character assassination to defend their arguement...As Harte pointed out in yesterdays paper "we must hand over this association, that we inherited from our forefathers, in a better state than when it was given to us." We are only a generation of trustees (loosest sense) and are lucky that we can have a say in our association but the say must not be for the furtherment of anyones self interest.
Make Mickey Harte GAA president NOW!!!!!!
Quote from: DMarsden on December 26, 2007, 06:07:06 PM
How many is that out of the GPA membership now that have dissented? Spitting your toys out of the pram because the collective membership didn't vote how you'd like is skin to leaving the country when the party you vote for doesn't win an election.
No, it's not. Jordan is obviously not comfortable with the GPA and does not want to be seen to be a member, he's not comfortable with the strike decision and thus has determined that this is a body he no longer wants to be part of. Call him a conscientous objector if you will.
We need people like Jordan to remain in the GPA. He can easily object from within. If all the members whom object to the GPA leave then the leadership will be able to claim 100% support from the membership. The fact that the GPA do not represent all players is ignored by it's supporters and lost to the wider public.
Take them down from the inside!!
Quote from: DMarsden on December 26, 2007, 06:07:06 PM
Spitting your toys out of the pram because the collective membership didn't vote how you'd like is skin to leaving the country when the party you vote for doesn't win an election.
So if the GAA at large decides the grants are a no go, and the county players will not receive them - will the GPA spit the dummy out?
Quote from: rrhf on December 29, 2007, 12:02:38 PM
Fair play to Phillip Jordan - an exceptional, courageous and principled position from one of tyrones greatest ever stars, beleieve you me this is only the tip of the ice berg, more will follow, but it takes courage to be the first. Wait for flak and personal abuse from the unprincipled rabble on here, but sure they need insults, gagging nd character assassination to defend their arguement...As Harte pointed out in yesterdays paper "we must hand over this association, that we inherited from our forefathers, in a better state than when it was given to us." We are only a generation of trustees (loosest sense) and are lucky that we can have a say in our association but the say must not be for the furtherment of anyones self interest.
Make Mickey Harte GAA president NOW!!!!!!
You must be delighted at being proven correct and reading all the abuse that Philip Jordan is getting on this board about his decision..... ::)
As for Mickey (I will break any rule I like as long as it suits Tyrone) Harte - yes he is a great role model...
But sure you can't get any bigger or beter role model than the Dublin manager - Pillar Caffrey - he's a member of an Garda Siochana isn't he ? You wouldn't see him breaking any rules either. ;)
Are not 99% of Managers breaking the amateur Rule? ;)
Quote from: orangeman on December 31, 2007, 02:00:03 PM
But sure you can't get any bigger or beter role model than the Dublin manager - Pillar Caffrey - he's a member of an Garda Siochana isn't he ? You wouldn't see him breaking any rules either. ;)
So what rules did Pillar Caffrey break then?
That shove in the back from Pillar or whatever it was in front of 82,000 spectators - is that enough of breaking a rule ? He was disciplined over it all the same - I think he got 1 month but it entitled him to apply for the grant on the basis that he had played some part in Dublin's quest for glory - he took an active part in the panel.
Fair play to the ofonebelief.org group. Great news in the Irish News paper today that no decision has been reached on the grants by the GAA. I have never been a fan of the various sub committees etc and appeal bodies within the GAA, but the ofonebelief group has illustrated how the procedures are there to protect the GAA from enemy forces from both within and outside its organisation. At l;east now club members will have their say if it is deemed neccessary to push this agenda any further. A victory for the grass roots and in years to come we will know why this was all neccessary.