Tyrone Club Football and Hurling

[Knock Yer Mucker In]

There was a discussion on here a few months ago about players who played in both reserve and senior championship winning teams. Well we had Ciaran Lynch and Shane Cooney who played on both this year, and have their championship medals.

[na cleirigh]

i'd say you weren't wrong there with the 6 dungannon supporters but we never exactly have a big support and what do you expect when things were going so badly. Thats quite funny about derrytresk playing in senior the last time dungannon played in junior. I remember a few years ago our reserves played their seniors in a pre season friendly and won easy. Now its senior against senior, how times have changed!

[orangeman]

i'd say you weren't wrong there with the 6 dungannon supporters but we never exactly have a big support and what do you expect when things were going so badly. Thats quite funny about derrytresk playing in senior the last time dungannon played in junior. I remember a few years ago our reserves played their seniors in a pre season friendly and won easy. Now its senior against senior, how times have changed!

[/b]

Incredible !

Roddy - I thought you were throwing them ?? Maybe not !

[snappiered]

Orangeman i reckon Greencastle Eskra will be a draw. Sorts both out

[rrhf]

Orangeman I reckon you could have a scoop here. 

[orangeman]

Orangeman I reckon you could have a scoop here. 

Where's Ziggy - he's usually the man for the big scoops ! 

[ziggysego]

Orangeman I reckon you could have a scoop here. 

Where's Ziggy - he's usually the man for the big scoops ! 

Can't help you, never heard of Greencastke.

[amigo]

Orangeman I reckon you could have a scoop here. 

Where's Ziggy - he's usually the man for the big scoops ! 

Can't help you, never heard of Greencastke.

Very quiet for you ziggy!! You boys have the point sorted at this stage i'd say !!!

[tyrone86]

Orangeman i reckon Greencastle Eskra will be a draw. Sorts both out

Rumour has it that Tattyreagh's Kieran Taggart is refereeing it to prevent any skulduggery

[Doire abú]

also if there were top 4/bottom 4 playoffs, county players wouldnt have to be available for EVERY league game and we mightnt be in the position we find ourselves in. the rule they brought in where county men had to be available for every single league game was never going to work. a more workable solution would be them being available for 9-10 league games.

That would cause a problem - how do they pick which teams you play your county men against. Current Tyrone format is good when Tyrone are going poorly and bad when Tyrone are playing well. Someone suggested they should start leagues earlier but if that was case you would have alot of games played early and you would still have same problem of inactivity over the ideal months for playing football.

My proposal

* Retain the current 3 division meeting of 2 x 16s, and 1 x 17.
* Leagues to be played off weekly with 5 starred games to be worked around Tyrone's AI senior games, i.e. the weekend before or the weekend of.
* Some consideration to be made towards pairing teams with County players during these stared games. Example in div two this year Clann Na nGael to face Moy, In div one Cookstown v Coalisland. However the negative of this would that games be of lesser profile, and the crowd pulling fixtures of Errigal, Dromore, Carrickmore etc would be watered down due to the absence of the big name players.
* Consideration be given to one or two midweek fixtures. These games would be derby matches and teams should not be expected to travel greater than 10 miles on a week night. With a bit of marketing by the clubs concerned you could make these crowd pulling games, with the absence of counter attractions on a weekday night.
* Promotion to remain as previous years i.e. Championship winners, and league winners.
* Relegation to remain as usual i.e. the two lowest finishing teams in each of the divisions.
* In addition a play-off to be introduced. The play offs to include the teams that finish 2nd, 3rd and 4th in the promotion positions, and the team that finishes 3rd last in the relegation position.

It was obvious to me that the 3x16 (or 2x16 + 1x17) league system wasn't going to work if Tyrone were half successful this year. With the current Inter-County backdoor system currently in place meaning that the county team will be competing until July at least for the foreseeable future, with the possibility of that season being extended for up to a further two months.

We now need to look as to how feasible we can ask county reps to play in club league games. 15 appears to be too much, 11 still caused problems for a few clubs like the Moy and Clann na nGael who would claim that unlike the likes of Errigal, Dromore or Carrickmore were much more weakened by their county representatives not being present. However most others tended to get on with it.

The 4x12 setup certainly made leagues competitive but wasn't without its flaws. For a start if a club got off to a very bad start they played the rest of their league games without much care as the possibility of getting out of the relegation play-offs was doubtful before putting their energy into trying and secure their status in the play-offs. Also with automatic promotion and the title awarded to the division winners automatically, this could lead to claims for clubs in lower divisions who had reps on the county panel to say they were deprived potential success as their opponents could field their strongest 15 potentially each game when they couldn't. Especially in Division 2, round 22 led to some scenarios where a club could have ended up in promotion or relegation play-offs depending on results that day which made it a bit of a lottery. Finally, the 24 club Senior championship proved to obviously not be fruitful or as competitive as it was first hoped back in the late 90's.

Altogether most of the lower Senior, Intermediate and Junior clubs seemed to prefer the 4x12 system while the more competitive Senior clubs didn't. If the 4x12 system was to be reintroduced, I would look to see that a top four play-off for the league title takes place in all Divisions (no automatic promotion for the team that tops the table after 22 rounds) while for relegation also a bottom four but with a "quota" provision in that any club that fails to collect a certain amount of league points over the 22 rounds (say 8-10) would be automatically relegated; reach it and they would be entitled to enter play-offs instead. It would make teams have to aim for something after a bad start in the league without the comfort of play-offs no matter how well/badly they do. Even for clubs who have county reps available for only half of their games, 8-10 league points should be perfectly achievable and if not, should be relegated anyway.

My alternative proposal...

* Bring back a four division league but not with 12/13 teams in each. Instead have 14 teams in Divisions 1, 2 and 3 with 7 teams in a new Division 4. Games in Divisions 1, 2 and 3 played over a single round (13 games), Division 4 a double round (12 games). Two less league games than under the current format might (no certainty) be able to clear up the league season a little quicker.

* The introduction of a new championship below Junior, Junior B, in a similar fashion to that for Ladies football already in Tyrone (more details below).

* Intermediate, Junior and Junior B Championship winners will no longer gain the automatic right to be promoted in the league. However they will be guaranteed a place in the next tier of championship the following year regardless of what division they play in, even if relegated. Also if the situation should occur, winning the Senior championship will not stop the winners from being relegated in the league.

* Senior, Intermediate and Junior Championships shall take place with a maximum of 16 teams in each. The Senior championship shall be played by all teams in Division 1 (14), plus the current holders of the Senior and Intermediate Championships should they not be playing in Division 1. Intermediate Championship to be competed for by teams in Division 2 not eligible to play in the Senior Championship, plus the current holders of the Junior Championship should they be playing in Divisions 3 or 4. Junior Championship to be played for by teams in Division 3 not eligible for the Senior or Intermediate Championship, plus the current Junior B holders if they are playing in Division 4. Junior B Championship to be competed for by teams in Division 4 not eligible to play in any of the other championships.

* Leagues would be played with an automatic 2 up & 2 down in each division, with a further promotion-relegation play-off. 11th & 12th placed teams in Divisions 1, 2 & 3 face each other (11th place team has home advantage), winner stays in that division for the following year, loser goes into Interdivisional play-off. 3rd & 4th place team in Divisions 2, 3 and 4 (3rd place team has home advantage) face each other, loser remains in that division for next year, winner goes into Interdivisional play-offs between 1/2, 2/3 and 3/4.

* Championships to remain a straight knock-out. If Senior championship contains 15 teams, current SFC holders are granted a bye into the quarter-finals, 14 teams and the current Division 1 league holders also gain a bye. In other championships, any byes would be granted by order of the finishing of the previous years' league excluding relegated teams from the higher division e.g. The first bye in the Intermediate Championship would go to the 3rd or 4th placed team in least years' Division 2 that wasn't promoted.

* Advantages as I see it - current championship model retained (though I would have no opposition to a model similar to that in Derry right now), clubs still entitled to have county panellists for all league games (I think this just might be manageable), a club's league season will not be over if they win a championship (except in those current cases where the championship holders can still win their league title) and will still try to aim to play in the highest division possible, a team that finishes second in the league can now be promoted along with automatic promotion/relegation while still allowing a top/bottom 4 situation to keep leagues as competitive as possible for longer. Clubs in lower leagues of Tyrone have a more competitive competition compared to the current setup in Division 3.

Current Championship system not proving very popular in Derry.

[billy the kid]

The Derry Championship is not a good template to be following.

1. Far to many games to be played and this causes alot of other teams to suffer. Eg Hurling clubs, the Derry county teams, and the season to be very long and drawn out. Eg Derry leagues are only finishing now and the Derry Football team were beat in the first round of the qualifiers.

2. It leads to dead rubber games where teams have nothing to play for in final round (already qualified or already out) and they can have the intensity of a charity match on boxing day.

3. The group system basically ensures that the top teams all make the QFs because they may be caught on the hop in a group game but will end up winning the other 2 and this removes the chances of a smaller club having an impact.

[bigfrank]

New thread for all this league talk,structures/formats etc

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[tonesfirstandlast]

The Derry Championship is not a good template to be following.

1. Far to many games to be played and this causes alot of other teams to suffer. Eg Hurling clubs, the Derry county teams, and the season to be very long and drawn out. Eg Derry leagues are only finishing now and the Derry Football team were beat in the first round of the qualifiers.

2. It leads to dead rubber games where teams have nothing to play for in final round (already qualified or already out) and they can have the intensity of a charity match on boxing day.

3. The group system basically ensures that the top teams all make the QFs because they may be caught on the hop in a group game but will end up winning the other 2 and this removes the chances of a smaller club having an impact.

The Derry  format is an excellent idea. It gives teams more high profile games and the top teams don't always get through eg Loup this year and Castledawson last year. The only objectors are the hurlers who whinge continuously about everything and county managers who would prefer that club would be done away with altogether.

[tyrone86]

It was obvious to me that the 3x16 (or 2x16 + 1x17) league system wasn't going to work if Tyrone were half successful this year. With the current Inter-County backdoor system currently in place meaning that the county team will be competing until July at least for the foreseeable future, with the possibility of that season being extended for up to a further two months.

We now need to look as to how feasible we can ask county reps to play in club league games. 15 appears to be too much, 11 still caused problems for a few clubs like the Moy and Clann na nGael who would claim that unlike the likes of Errigal, Dromore or Carrickmore were much more weakened by their county representatives not being present. However most others tended to get on with it.

The 4x12 setup certainly made leagues competitive but wasn't without its flaws. For a start if a club got off to a very bad start they played the rest of their league games without much care as the possibility of getting out of the relegation play-offs was doubtful before putting their energy into trying and secure their status in the play-offs. Also with automatic promotion and the title awarded to the division winners automatically, this could lead to claims for clubs in lower divisions who had reps on the county panel to say they were deprived potential success as their opponents could field their strongest 15 potentially each game when they couldn't. Especially in Division 2, round 22 led to some scenarios where a club could have ended up in promotion or relegation play-offs depending on results that day which made it a bit of a lottery. Finally, the 24 club Senior championship proved to obviously not be fruitful or as competitive as it was first hoped back in the late 90's.

Altogether most of the lower Senior, Intermediate and Junior clubs seemed to prefer the 4x12 system while the more competitive Senior clubs didn't. If the 4x12 system was to be reintroduced, I would look to see that a top four play-off for the league title takes place in all Divisions (no automatic promotion for the team that tops the table after 22 rounds) while for relegation also a bottom four but with a "quota" provision in that any club that fails to collect a certain amount of league points over the 22 rounds (say 8-10) would be automatically relegated; reach it and they would be entitled to enter play-offs instead. It would make teams have to aim for something after a bad start in the league without the comfort of play-offs no matter how well/badly they do. Even for clubs who have county reps available for only half of their games, 8-10 league points should be perfectly achievable and if not, should be relegated anyway.

My alternative proposal...

* Bring back a four division league but not with 12/13 teams in each. Instead have 14 teams in Divisions 1, 2 and 3 with 7 teams in a new Division 4. Games in Divisions 1, 2 and 3 played over a single round (13 games), Division 4 a double round (12 games). Two less league games than under the current format might (no certainty) be able to clear up the league season a little quicker.

* The introduction of a new championship below Junior, Junior B, in a similar fashion to that for Ladies football already in Tyrone (more details below).

* Intermediate, Junior and Junior B Championship winners will no longer gain the automatic right to be promoted in the league. However they will be guaranteed a place in the next tier of championship the following year regardless of what division they play in, even if relegated. Also if the situation should occur, winning the Senior championship will not stop the winners from being relegated in the league.

* Senior, Intermediate and Junior Championships shall take place with a maximum of 16 teams in each. The Senior championship shall be played by all teams in Division 1 (14), plus the current holders of the Senior and Intermediate Championships should they not be playing in Division 1. Intermediate Championship to be competed for by teams in Division 2 not eligible to play in the Senior Championship, plus the current holders of the Junior Championship should they be playing in Divisions 3 or 4. Junior Championship to be played for by teams in Division 3 not eligible for the Senior or Intermediate Championship, plus the current Junior B holders if they are playing in Division 4. Junior B Championship to be competed for by teams in Division 4 not eligible to play in any of the other championships.

* Leagues would be played with an automatic 2 up & 2 down in each division, with a further promotion-relegation play-off. 11th & 12th placed teams in Divisions 1, 2 & 3 face each other (11th place team has home advantage), winner stays in that division for the following year, loser goes into Interdivisional play-off. 3rd & 4th place team in Divisions 2, 3 and 4 (3rd place team has home advantage) face each other, loser remains in that division for next year, winner goes into Interdivisional play-offs between 1/2, 2/3 and 3/4.

* Championships to remain a straight knock-out. If Senior championship contains 15 teams, current SFC holders are granted a bye into the quarter-finals, 14 teams and the current Division 1 league holders also gain a bye. In other championships, any byes would be granted by order of the finishing of the previous years' league excluding relegated teams from the higher division e.g. The first bye in the Intermediate Championship would go to the 3rd or 4th placed team in least years' Division 2 that wasn't promoted.

* Advantages as I see it - current championship model retained (though I would have no opposition to a model similar to that in Derry right now), clubs still entitled to have county panellists for all league games (I think this just might be manageable), a club's league season will not be over if they win a championship (except in those current cases where the championship holders can still win their league title) and will still try to aim to play in the highest division possible, a team that finishes second in the league can now be promoted along with automatic promotion/relegation while still allowing a top/bottom 4 situation to keep leagues as competitive as possible for longer. Clubs in lower leagues of Tyrone have a more competitive competition compared to the current setup in Division 3.

Fair play Fionn, a lot of thought put into it, a few radical suggestions in it and certainly discussion worthy.

I think the problem is, was and will be for ever and ever is that for the majority of clubs in the County don't want to look at the bigger picture and their own interests are paramount. Until the perennial mid to lower 1B and Division 2 clubs realised that there was the potential there for a run in the Ulster and All-Ireland club series in the Intermediate and Junior ranks, there was a tremendous resistance to change from the 4x12 system on the grounds the clubs didn't want their status to drop. It is this mentality, particularly in the lower divisions, which is the chief reason why you'll never see the League & Championship link severed in Tyrone. If a team screws up the first couple of league games then the 'backdoor' of the Championship remains.

Case in point, take Killyman. Under your system Killyman would have been playing Division 3 Football this year, yet competing in the Senior Championship, which would have been completely untenable. Playing Division 1 football brought them on tremendously later on in the year and was just reward for their efforts in last years Intermediate Championship, rather than a 1 off game against the Fianna then back to dogfight of Junior Football.

As for the Junior B suggestion, it's fine in Ladies football when you have new clubs emerging on a regular basis with many rookie adult footballers, however, I would suggest that the junior clubs in the county would perceive this as a slap in the face. Even if you look at Division 3 this year, the 3 clubs that made the greatest improvement was the bottom 3 from 2007. The previous year, Castlederg went from bottom of Junior in 06 to denying your neighbours the Division 3 league title, beating them at the tail end of the season and subsequently finishing second or third - all in the space of one season.

As for counter proposals, it's absolutely futile. Me personally, I always enjoyed playing games  on Friday night and another on Sunday as it got you out of a nights training that week, but alas player burnout concerns override everything now. However, I think a greater priority isn't to stop clubs finishing off leagues now, it's to have the 1500 odd lads not on a County panel playing regularly at the height of the summer rather than weeks upon weeks on inactivity. Perhaps a League Cup without County players and with a greater incentive than just bragging rights would be a start.

[orangeman]

It was obvious to me that the 3x16 (or 2x16 + 1x17) league system wasn't going to work if Tyrone were half successful this year. With the current Inter-County backdoor system currently in place meaning that the county team will be competing until July at least for the foreseeable future, with the possibility of that season being extended for up to a further two months.

We now need to look as to how feasible we can ask county reps to play in club league games. 15 appears to be too much, 11 still caused problems for a few clubs like the Moy and Clann na nGael who would claim that unlike the likes of Errigal, Dromore or Carrickmore were much more weakened by their county representatives not being present. However most others tended to get on with it.

The 4x12 setup certainly made leagues competitive but wasn't without its flaws. For a start if a club got off to a very bad start they played the rest of their league games without much care as the possibility of getting out of the relegation play-offs was doubtful before putting their energy into trying and secure their status in the play-offs. Also with automatic promotion and the title awarded to the division winners automatically, this could lead to claims for clubs in lower divisions who had reps on the county panel to say they were deprived potential success as their opponents could field their strongest 15 potentially each game when they couldn't. Especially in Division 2, round 22 led to some scenarios where a club could have ended up in promotion or relegation play-offs depending on results that day which made it a bit of a lottery. Finally, the 24 club Senior championship proved to obviously not be fruitful or as competitive as it was first hoped back in the late 90's.

Altogether most of the lower Senior, Intermediate and Junior clubs seemed to prefer the 4x12 system while the more competitive Senior clubs didn't. If the 4x12 system was to be reintroduced, I would look to see that a top four play-off for the league title takes place in all Divisions (no automatic promotion for the team that tops the table after 22 rounds) while for relegation also a bottom four but with a "quota" provision in that any club that fails to collect a certain amount of league points over the 22 rounds (say 8-10) would be automatically relegated; reach it and they would be entitled to enter play-offs instead. It would make teams have to aim for something after a bad start in the league without the comfort of play-offs no matter how well/badly they do. Even for clubs who have county reps available for only half of their games, 8-10 league points should be perfectly achievable and if not, should be relegated anyway.

My alternative proposal...

* Bring back a four division league but not with 12/13 teams in each. Instead have 14 teams in Divisions 1, 2 and 3 with 7 teams in a new Division 4. Games in Divisions 1, 2 and 3 played over a single round (13 games), Division 4 a double round (12 games). Two less league games than under the current format might (no certainty) be able to clear up the league season a little quicker.

* The introduction of a new championship below Junior, Junior B, in a similar fashion to that for Ladies football already in Tyrone (more details below).

* Intermediate, Junior and Junior B Championship winners will no longer gain the automatic right to be promoted in the league. However they will be guaranteed a place in the next tier of championship the following year regardless of what division they play in, even if relegated. Also if the situation should occur, winning the Senior championship will not stop the winners from being relegated in the league.

* Senior, Intermediate and Junior Championships shall take place with a maximum of 16 teams in each. The Senior championship shall be played by all teams in Division 1 (14), plus the current holders of the Senior and Intermediate Championships should they not be playing in Division 1. Intermediate Championship to be competed for by teams in Division 2 not eligible to play in the Senior Championship, plus the current holders of the Junior Championship should they be playing in Divisions 3 or 4. Junior Championship to be played for by teams in Division 3 not eligible for the Senior or Intermediate Championship, plus the current Junior B holders if they are playing in Division 4. Junior B Championship to be competed for by teams in Division 4 not eligible to play in any of the other championships.

* Leagues would be played with an automatic 2 up & 2 down in each division, with a further promotion-relegation play-off. 11th & 12th placed teams in Divisions 1, 2 & 3 face each other (11th place team has home advantage), winner stays in that division for the following year, loser goes into Interdivisional play-off. 3rd & 4th place team in Divisions 2, 3 and 4 (3rd place team has home advantage) face each other, loser remains in that division for next year, winner goes into Interdivisional play-offs between 1/2, 2/3 and 3/4.

* Championships to remain a straight knock-out. If Senior championship contains 15 teams, current SFC holders are granted a bye into the quarter-finals, 14 teams and the current Division 1 league holders also gain a bye. In other championships, any byes would be granted by order of the finishing of the previous years' league excluding relegated teams from the higher division e.g. The first bye in the Intermediate Championship would go to the 3rd or 4th placed team in least years' Division 2 that wasn't promoted.

* Advantages as I see it - current championship model retained (though I would have no opposition to a model similar to that in Derry right now), clubs still entitled to have county panellists for all league games (I think this just might be manageable), a club's league season will not be over if they win a championship (except in those current cases where the championship holders can still win their league title) and will still try to aim to play in the highest division possible, a team that finishes second in the league can now be promoted along with automatic promotion/relegation while still allowing a top/bottom 4 situation to keep leagues as competitive as possible for longer. Clubs in lower leagues of Tyrone have a more competitive competition compared to the current setup in Division 3.

Fair play Fionn, a lot of thought put into it, a few radical suggestions in it and certainly discussion worthy.

I think the problem is, was and will be for ever and ever is that for the majority of clubs in the County don't want to look at the bigger picture and their own interests are paramount. Until the perennial mid to lower 1B and Division 2 clubs realised that there was the potential there for a run in the Ulster and All-Ireland club series in the Intermediate and Junior ranks, there was a tremendous resistance to change from the 4x12 system on the grounds the clubs didn't want their status to drop. It is this mentality, particularly in the lower divisions, which is the chief reason why you'll never see the League & Championship link severed in Tyrone. If a team screws up the first couple of league games then the 'backdoor' of the Championship remains.

Case in point, take Killyman. Under your system Killyman would have been playing Division 3 Football this year, yet competing in the Senior Championship, which would have been completely untenable. Playing Division 1 football brought them on tremendously later on in the year and was just reward for their efforts in last years Intermediate Championship, rather than a 1 off game against the Fianna then back to dogfight of Junior Football.

As for the Junior B suggestion, it's fine in Ladies football when you have new clubs emerging on a regular basis with many rookie adult footballers, however, I would suggest that the junior clubs in the county would perceive this as a slap in the face. Even if you look at Division 3 this year, the 3 clubs that made the greatest improvement was the bottom 3 from 2007. The previous year, Castlederg went from bottom of Junior in 06 to denying your neighbours the Division 3 league title, beating them at the tail end of the season and subsequently finishing second or third - all in the space of one season.

As for counter proposals, it's absolutely futile. Me personally, I always enjoyed playing games  on Friday night and another on Sunday as it got you out of a nights training that week, but alas player burnout concerns override everything now. However, I think a greater priority isn't to stop clubs finishing off leagues now, it's to have the 1500 odd lads not on a County panel playing regularly at the height of the summer rather than weeks upon weeks on inactivity. Perhaps a League Cup without County players and with a greater incentive than just bragging rights would be a start.


There were clubs who didn't even field for the first round - needless to say they didn't field for the other matches.

Out of curiosity, can anyone name me the winners of the league cups for all divisions ??