I mind reading about Padai O Se running from Ard a' Bhothair over An Clasach and round by Slea Head back home. Pete McGrath had our boys doing "The Big Stone", Boylan had the Meath lads doing the sand dunes, Val Kane used to torture us in "The Park".....has the sadism died out of pre season training.....it used to be that if you didnt puke it wasnt doing you any good...any thoughts??
Quote from: 5 Sams on December 14, 2006, 12:27:06 AM
I mind reading about Padai O Se running from Ard a' Bhothair over An Clasach and round by Slea Head back home. Pete McGrath had our boys doing "The Big Stone", Boylan had the Meath lads doing the sand dunes, Val Kane used to torture us in "The Park".....has the sadism died out of pre season training.....it used to be that if you didnt puke it wasnt doing you any good...any thoughts??
Is this what they mean by puke football ?
we used to go to Killbroney Park and everyone puked! one in all in
Kilbroney was a good oul session. a nice wee change of scenery. better than doin stinkin laps
speak for yourself bendover ;D
good one ballswasthere!!
Dear god that was a goodun Ballwasthere!! A real classic!! Can hardly breathe from laughing
Guess whos on top form the day lads! Keep em coming ballwasthere :-\
I hope that most teams by now realise that there is no need for that ridiculous run run run rubbish any more.
A few bits of physical training OK, but if you have overweight lads on the squad, then they should be sorted out as a smaller group and the entire team train on the skills, techniques and so on for the coming season.
This seems to be what GAA coaches are telling younger players now
and I can only hope that this goes for adult sides, though some will feel a GAA version of Catholic guilt if they are not killing themselves with laps and hill/beach/bog/water based running.
The Cavan squad when they got rid of Liam Austin in the late 90's a prime example.
Liam got the road as the squad were not happy with the amount of puke inducing training being metted out.
in 1992 the Mayo team were made push cars around car parks as part of their training.
We were the laughing stock of the nation at the time!
When in Boston the manager made us go up banks on or hands with team mate holding your feet (wheelbarrow)
Wasnt long after the shoulder op so i had a good excused to miss out,
should this not be a Harps thread?
Has anyone done pilates before the football season starts??
How did you find it? Did it benefit you?
kilbroney, castlewellan lake, and morloch beach, all puke inducing training sessions!!
We used to do a lot of pre-season in and around Murlough and some of the more inhospitable parts of Dundrum Bay. There is one sand dune just in off the beach at Murlough which is virtually vertical. One run up it and you will experience the worst feeling you will have ever felt in your life. No joke.
Did Kilbroney, The Park(thankfully not too often), Termofeckin sandunes, the island down on Muckno lake but of all the puke inducing pre-seasons, the worst was down here in Cork on the sand dunes of Inchadoney Beach. If ever a place was created for torture it was there.
There is one memory of the heavy training on Termofeckin beach which always makes me giggle. We were there loosening up when Big Joe says "see those two sticks in the distance jog down to them and back to warm up." Off we merrily went laughing, joking and having a good old time tripping the younger lads in the water as we ran. By the time we made it to the "two sticks" they were actually a ship wrecked boat!!! The were plenty of fcuks at that, took us 20 minutes. The same night we were doing laps of the dunes of about 600 metres. As hard as you could 5 laps. Each lap we went past Joe and Francie was always smiling, Joe says you boys are staying out here till I wipe the smile off his face. The fecker kept laughing!!!
Murlough sand dunes is the toughest training ever!!!!!
Pilates anyone??
Barnets Park in Belfast was a fecking nightmare for me, hated that place with a passion. Legs went to jelly in the car on the way down to it...Done the Kilbroney park a few times last year (tough but enjoyable)
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on January 05, 2009, 04:31:12 PM
Did Kilbroney, The Park(thankfully not too often), Termofeckin sandunes, the island down on Muckno lake but of all the puke inducing pre-seasons, the worst was down here in Cork on the sand dunes of Inchadoney Beach. If ever a place was created for torture it was there.
There is one memory of the heavy training on Termofeckin beach which always makes me giggle. We were there loosening up when Big Joe says "see those two sticks in the distance jog down to them and back to warm up." Off we merrily went laughing, joking and having a good old time tripping the younger lads in the water as we ran. By the time we made it to the "two sticks" they were actually a ship wrecked boat!!! The were plenty of fcuks at that, took us 20 minutes. The same night we were doing laps of the dunes of about 600 metres. As hard as you could 5 laps. Each lap we went past Joe and Francie was always smiling, Joe says you boys are staying out here till I wipe the smile off his face. The fecker kept laughing!!!
Hated the park. val kane and john rafferty loved it, thought there was nothing like it. i had the misfortune to be at the abbey shortly after the management read ger loughnanes book. needless to say i decided that selling football boots was more enjoyable on a saturday and stuck to that instead.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 14, 2006, 10:09:56 AM
I hope that most teams by now realise that there is no need for that ridiculous run run run rubbish any more.
A few bits of physical training OK, but if you have overweight lads on the squad, then they should be sorted out as a smaller group and the entire team train on the skills, techniques and so on for the coming season.
This seems to be what GAA coaches are telling younger players now
and I can only hope that this goes for adult sides, though some will feel a GAA version of Catholic guilt if they are not killing themselves with laps and hill/beach/bog/water based running.
The Cavan squad when they got rid of Liam Austin in the late 90's a prime example.
Liam got the road as the squad were not happy with the amount of puke inducing training being metted out.
I know it's not the norm nowadays as laps are not specific enough training for Gealic games anymore, but we really do kid ourselves about the fitness levels of most people who play top level at club anyway. Any decent athletics club 5K/10K runners cardio capabilities would put a "fit" GAA man to shame. Surely in football the lung busting runs up and down the pitch need players with similar speed endurance that 30m shuttle runs will never give you and more specific training to develop?
When Peter Mc Donald (Armagh manager) took Errigal Ciaran he took us to Slieve Gullian and made us run up it and most puked at some stage. Micky Harte took over from him the following year and when one of the lads aked him if we would be going to the forest his answer was ' when they start playing football in a forest then we will train in the forest' All of his training always involved a football..... A lesson in that I think..
While I agree the vast majority of your training should be done with the ball I think there is a place for forest, sand dune, etc. running in an overall training program. The thing about training is there isn't just one way to achieve your goals and the mistake many in the GAA make is to try and copy whatever the AI champions of the last year did. You have to plan your training program based on the type of players you have, the level you're playing at, the players main weaknesses/strengths, what is available to you (i.e a beach etc.) and many other things. With respect to MH, just because a man of his standing believes something doesn't mean it is right for all teams.
mid to late 80's
6 x 200m - 35 seconds
6 x 150m - 25 seconds
6 x100m - 15 seconds
followed by circuit training and med balls.
To this day i still maintain it was f**king insanity
Guess what we won- nothing. Only years later after doing sports science course, i realised it was a complete waste of time.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 05, 2009, 06:44:33 PM
mid to late 80's
6 x 200m - 35 seconds
6 x 150m - 25 seconds
6 x100m - 15 seconds
followed by circuit training and med balls.
To this day i still maintain it was f**king insanity
Guess what we won- nothing. Only years later after doing sports science course, i realised it was a complete waste of time.
Indiana, I know a team that won a brave few trophies over recent times using a similar method, without the circuits. :P(as they had no weights programme). it is all about a mixture of the old and new. you need a core stamina and you will not get that by shuttles, but the days of a quick stretch and 15 laps are well and truly consigned to the bin.
Quote from: illdecide on January 05, 2009, 05:15:57 PM
Barnets Park in Belfast was a fecking nightmare for me, hated that place with a passion. Legs went to jelly in the car on the way down to it...Done the Kilbroney park a few times last year (tough but enjoyable)
I had forgotten about Barnett's, sprinting up the gradually inclining road was a hateful way to finish off running round the grass.
Why won't he be able to run come summer?
Running 30km per week early in the season won't burn a player out come summer, in fact any IC footballer should be able to do that with little problem.
Quote from: Davitt Man on January 05, 2009, 04:00:19 PM
Has anyone done pilates before the football season starts??
How did you find it? Did it benefit you?
Davitt Man,
You resurrected a thread from way back in 2006! And nobody had the manners to answer you.... ;) ::)
Anyway the Kerry team are said to be mad into the Pilates. It improves core strength, flexibility and makes the muscles more supple.
I never
had the guts tried it but I have done some hot yoga a few times - different story altogether.
i'd love to try pilates but the site of a middle-aged retired footballer walking into a class full of women
does nothing for my confidence or my wife!
how would the kerry boys fit it into there regime? organised classes?
Never did it but I hope to start very soon, I've heard it is great and I think it will be worth the bit of slagging, anyway as a single man it might have additional benefits!!
tu che!!
where would you look about doing them?
heard a couple of armagh noys were into it...
tu che
the latest cult - will catch on next season with the rest - check out local sports centre!
highly recommended
would have thought that running straight 10K distances would be woeful for a box to box player who would need to run at 3/4 pace for most of the time and then recover before doing the same thing over and over. Surely interval running would be better
Well training for anyone has to take into account the specifics of the individual but even an amateur should be able to train 11 months of the year. If his program is good and he listens to his body then he should be fine, it is impossible for an IC coach to oversee various training programs so they generally do just one for everybody. However I always say to my players to tell me if they are feeling a bit run down and they can take a night or a week off if they need it. But it is up to the players to tell me as I can't monitor them all to that degree. It is hard to say what is the best program to employ, I know of teams that have been relatively successful without training at all and others that trained ferociously for 9 months. The problem I find with coaching GAA players is that you don't know what they have done outside of your sessions so sometimes you are doing more harm than good but you never know it.
Quotewould have thought that running straight 10K distances would be woeful for a box to box player who would need to run at 3/4 pace for most of the time and then recover before doing the same thing over and over. Surely interval running would be better
You need to do both IMO, I never do long distance runs in any session but if I might this season (in the first 4-6 weeks) then I'll do the long interval type runs you talk about Skull. In season it would be all shorter stuff and small sided games, in fact all my sessions are based around small sided games (even early in the year) and there is recent evidence to suggest this is as good as interval training for improving anaerobic capacity.
Yeah.....the variance in the natural fitness levels, strength, alcohol consumption of players makes it difficult at this time of year. Specific training for some boys should really be done but there is never enough people to split sessions to suit different groups. I do think that circuit training is a good way to get core strength into a team in the first 5/6 weeks.
I think long, stamina runs in your own time at this time of year are ideal. Lads really shouldn't be returning to pre-season training if they can't do 10km runs with a fair level of ease. Stamina runs can and should continue for the first six weeks of training but gradually tapering towards explosive type action. The biggest problem though is not knowing when to peak for. Teams can be in flying form for the start of the league and building up nicely towards championship. They might then play the first round in May but it could be August before they are out again. That's a major problem for most club teams and it is here that teams might look tired, in my opinion
QuoteThe whole core strength and gyms at the start of the season always has me asking, if it isn't maintained during the season is it worth doing at the start of the season. Especially the core work outs.
well, its up to managers to have proper time built into schedules to allow these AMATEUR players to do one or two weights sessions a week to maintain muscle strength and power. And also recovery days where they do no training
the recovery time between training sessions is more important, along with sensible progressions.
Well we all know that is too much for amatuers Zulu. Weights do not "have to" be done 12 month a year either speaking from experience. Amatuers can only do so much as you say and 2/3 nights traing and a match will get most boys in decent enough shape if they look after themselves. Of course you get the odd fellow who has time and a less than strenuous job to allow him to train better but they are far from the norm in the GAA and we should not expect the mass player population to be able to train at that level.
5Sams jesus you're putting me in bad form just thinking about another pre season! I would have run with anyone back in a bygone age but times have changed greatly!
I am a big supporter of all training being done on the field with footballs involved, I have no doubt that all that's needed can be done in this way.
I would suggest that in your early 30s the key thought is to avoid pre season as much as possible!
ah no,Its nothat time of the year again is it lads :-[ :'(
i wonder what Micky Graham will have us doing in a week or two.
right the first one to Bench 100KG gets a prize.
QuoteWeights do not "have to" be done 12 month a year either speaking from experience
I'm afraid they do, if you do weights for (lets say) 6 months and then stop you will lose much of what you gained within 2 to 3 months. Will it mean you can't play well? No, not necessarily but unless your weight training program is continued over the season there is hardly any point in starting one at all.
Zulu,
would you recommend, a few long runs (8-10K) before Training starts in a few weeks?
already gyming it 2 or 3 times a week anyway.
Well it depends BM are you in decent shape at the moment? If you aren't that distance is probably a bit far, however I'd recommend a bit of beach running or soft ground running, if you don't have a beach, at this time of year. Just run reasonable distances and work up to no more than 10km, i.e. ease your way up rather than pushing yourself to much too soon and stay off the road if you can. Are you on the squad this year?
which squad? :P County? nope not at this minute anyway. Who knows what the year might bring though.
Fitness is good.
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2009, 01:42:51 AM
Well it depends BM are you in decent shape at the moment? If you aren't that distance is probably a bit far, however I'd recommend a bit of beach running or soft ground running, if you don't have a beach, at this time of year. Just run reasonable distances and work up to no more than 10km, i.e. ease your way up rather than pushing yourself to much too soon and stay off the road if you can. Are you on the squad this year?
I dont know would I wholly agree with doing the 10k runs.
Its a bit one dimensional and would not help with speed and other aspects of fitness. It may provide a good base for midfielders but for the majority of players I would advise against it. I used to do long runs like that on treadmills and on the road and I didnt find it any good because you are doing it at the same pace all the time. Its hard to find the will power and really push yourself when your on your own.
IMO you will really only get fit on the terrain you are playing on. In that respect the road and treadmills are out for me. A lot has to be said for training and getting fit on the soft/fast ground if you are playing games on a similar surface during the year.
And I wouldnt be in favour of having the same gym regime during the height of summer as you would during the winter.
Like during the winter I would have shorter sets and heavier weights. Maybe gyming 3 times a week. During the summer I would only be gyming 1-2 times a week as you dont have the energy if you are training twice a week and have a game. Rest and sleep patterns are as important. Not getting to bed early and getting a good nights sleep can really effect recovery and energy levels.
I'd agree with the last paragraph, you can't lift heavy weights 12 months of the year round and you certainly can't lift heavy weights the week oa match. In fact you shouldn't lift any weights the week of a game. Core stability is as important and maybe more so and it is neglected by countless players who fail to see the benefits of it no matter what you say to them.
Strange
During the winter I'd always heard lift mid-weight weights but more reps to build actual strength in muscles
Then reduce reps and increase weight to improve muscle power during the main playing season??
I'd agree with that, that would be my thinking. IN the early part of the seaosn before the serious games start you should be looking to improve your power base and maintain it thereafter. You may get a window later on in the season improve further. But there no way you could do heavy weights during the mainstream of the season bar the odd session here and there which wouldn't make any improvements.
You have to do some form of weights to maintain your strength built up but it wouldn't be on the scale of the early season stuff.
Quote from: neilthemac on January 06, 2009, 10:36:12 AM
Strange
During the winter I'd always heard lift mid-weight weights but more reps to build actual strength in muscles
Then reduce reps and increase weight to improve muscle power during the main playing season??
I think its the opposite.
Heavy weights at low reps increase size, strength and power. Its the kind of strength you need when the ground is soft during the early months of the year.
Lighter weights done at higher reps increase endurance, shape and speed in muscles. Thats the kind of workout you need during the summer when the ground is faster.
I dont know about everyone else but a heavy weight session can knock a lot out of you. When training hard during the summer I only have the energy for lighter weight sessions. Staying solid and topping up on work put in during the winter.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 06, 2009, 10:40:16 AM
But there no way you could do heavy weights during the mainstream of the season bar the odd session here and there which wouldn't make any improvements.
The odd weights session during the season/summer I would do a heavy session and drop sets. Only if I knew I would get loads of rest and time to recover. Drop sets can have a great effect of getting back what would be lost from doing endurance work (for me anyway).
They cause the deep burn ;D :D
Would many of youse make use of circuits for pre season. Just started last nite again and feeling fecked the day.
Supersarsfiels - where do you go to circuits? I went to Omagh Leisure Centre a few Monday nights. Tough, but enjoyable.
Unfortunately I'm still plying my trade up in Belfast at the minute so was at the circuits in Stranmillis. But am moving back down to Omagh in the next month or so. The new Gym in the leisure centre looks well. Thinking about joining up there once I do move down.
Who takes the circuits in Omagh?
Joe Corey from Dromore. New fitness suite looks the part alright. I'd say it will be stuffed for a few weeks now.
supersarsfields, whats the story with the stranmillis circuits - ie price, time, can you just turn up? And where are they done - i only know the entrance to the college.
I've joined the pec, so might see what theirs are like first, but always hear of ones going to the stran circuits
yeah, low reps/high weight if you actually want hypotrophy
The training philosophy I always learned/heard was build the strength base first, then power...
I suppose two different fitness guys will tell ya two different things
Quote from: neilthemac on January 06, 2009, 02:42:37 PM
The training philosophy I always learned/heard was build the strength base first, then power...
Not disagreeing at all there. Your right.
If you are taking it seriously, after a good strength base you can work on power; doing heavy reps quickly/explosively or power lifting and cleans.
I have seen guys get too big from the gym, carrying too much muscle and size it really effected speed, agility and endurance.
Then there are people who are naturally more athletic and find it really hard to put on weight / muscle.
I suppose everyone is looking for the happy medium.
Quote from: haranguerer on January 06, 2009, 01:23:14 PM
supersarsfields, whats the story with the stranmillis circuits - ie price, time, can you just turn up? And where are they done - i only know the entrance to the college.
I've joined the pec, so might see what theirs are like first, but always hear of ones going to the stran circuits
Yeah I was a member of the PEC for a few years there but it finished up at the start of Dec and never bothered renewing it as hopefully moving back to omagh over the next couple of months. But I enjoyed it, apart from the fact it was pricey.
The circuits in Stranmillis are very good. Always a decent crowd at them aswell. The circuits are held in a Gym at the college. You go in the entrance at the bottom of the hill, at the roundabout and then you go up the hill and to the right. The it's down a slight hill towards the gym. But usually there's always one's there so you could follow them. You can just turn up at any of the sessions. £3 a go. The Monday nites ones start at 6.30 then Tue, wed, Thur all start at 6.15 unless i'm mistaken. Goes for about 45 mins solid. Like alot of circuits, it's all about what you put in but there's plenty of variety.
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 06, 2009, 03:45:28 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 06, 2009, 01:23:14 PM
supersarsfields, whats the story with the stranmillis circuits - ie price, time, can you just turn up? And where are they done - i only know the entrance to the college.
I've joined the pec, so might see what theirs are like first, but always hear of ones going to the stran circuits
Yeah I was a member of the PEC for a few years there but it finished up at the start of Dec and never bothered renewing it as hopefully moving back to omagh over the next couple of months. But I enjoyed it, apart from the fact it was pricey.
The circuits in Stranmillis are very good. Always a decent crowd at them aswell. The circuits are held in a Gym at the college. You go in the entrance at the bottom of the hill, at the roundabout and then you go up the hill and to the right. The it's down a slight hill towards the gym. But usually there's always one's there so you could follow them. You can just turn up at any of the sessions. £3 a go. The Monday nites ones start at 6.30 then Tue, wed, Thur all start at 6.15 unless i'm mistaken. Goes for about 45 mins solid. Like alot of circuits, it's all about what you put in but there's plenty of variety.
And plenty to look at as well I'm reliably told ;)
QuoteNot disagreeing at all there. Your right.
If you are taking it seriously, after a good strength base you can work on power; doing heavy reps quickly/explosively or power lifting and cleans.
I have seen guys get too big from the gym, carrying too much muscle and size it really effected speed, agility and endurance.
Then there are people who are naturally more athletic and find it really hard to put on weight / muscle.
I suppose everyone is looking for the happy medium.
thats basically my outlook on it. i play other stuff as well as GAA and don't want to put on too much heavy muscle on my frame as it will affect flexibility etc. Just want to add small bit of muscle and improve strength of current muscles.
so once the playing seasons starts i'll be looking to develop power/speed in the muscles.
cheers
doing the correct weights will never slow anyone down. Don't neglect core stability and you won't get slow. Thats an old wives tale.
They are guys who must have been doing the incorrect weights for gaa players. Can't emphasiase the importance of core stability
in contact sports. Its amazing the amount of guys who neglect it.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 06, 2009, 04:20:13 PM
doing the correct weights will never slow anyone down. Don't neglect core stability and you won't get slow. Thats an old wives tale.
They are guys who must have been doing the incorrect weights for gaa players. Can't emphasiase the importance of core stability
in contact sports. Its amazing the amount of guys who neglect it.
Core is very important. I remember when I first started gyming about 3 years ago I completely ignored the core and it led to all sorts of problems. I used to get weak dull pains in my lower back when running and had bad posture. I think I had problems with tight glutes and hamstrings. The worst injury I got from a weak core was at the end of last year. I was doing decline sit-ups and my core wasnt strong enough to support my weight so something popped in my lower back that gave me a nasty sciatic nerve irritation. It didnt help that I played a match on it and I was fecked for a while. Im still not 100%.
I find core work is important to help in breaking tackles, and driving through without not spilling the ball and not buckling and losing your balance.
so what kind of drills are good for core work
You see this core stability thing gets to me. Mickey Moran said core stabilty is nonsense as in why concentrate on your core when you need your whole body to play Gaelic Football to the best of your ability.
He advocates this nutter:
http://www.completephilrichards.com/ (http://www.completephilrichards.com/)
Who is big into the Strong Man training and believes it is the best way to improve performance.
Personally I would agree on the premise that the whole body needs to be strong and not just the core which is why he uses string an training which Moran has been concentrating a lot on in recent seasons with Creggan I belive. To me the strong man training and Richards' nutritional philosophy leave a lot to be desired for an amateur athlete and while I am sure it works for professionals it is not a lifestyle choice I would like to make.
I was at a talk he gave where he was explaining the regime of using only organic and carefully prepared foodstuffs and when asked the question "Yeah this is all good but how is a man who is on the road from 7 in the morning to 6 in the evening supposed to follow this?" to which Phil replied "Well if he can't then he obviously doesn't have the requirements to be a winner!" At which point I decided his teachings weren't for me.
Someone asked about benefits of long runs (runs lasting 30 minutes to an hour or more). I'm more of a runner than a footballer myself and here's my understanding of it. The benefits of long runs are 1) To learn how it feels to run constantly for an hour, i.e. the stages you go through physically and mentally. This is why runners do a long run about once a week, but this benefit doesn't apply to footballers. 2) To burn fat. This is why boxers do long runs, so if you want to burn fat/loose weight long runs are a good way to do it.
However they can leave you tired for a day or more, which can affect the quality of your next training and your attitude to training, so if you don't need to loose weight I wouldn't advise them. Interval training is best to improve fitness. It's what distance runners from 1 mile to a marathon use. A good interval session, excluding warm up and cool down, can be done in around 30 mins, leaving time for skill work. Players should feel less sluggish between trainings and therefore look forward to the next one more. (And if your old school you can still push your players til they puke)
12x400m is a good starting point, starting together (which promotes racing) on 0:00, 3:00, 6:00, 9:00 etc... so your done in under 35 minutes. A fit footballer should be looking at getting all 12 runs close to 80 seconds. The faster guys may get close to 75 on a few. There are endless variations of interval sessions. Remember this improves fitness in the stamina sense of the word, footballers should also think about speed and agility (http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=speed+agility+training+football&search_type=&aq=f) training
Quote from: Davitt Man on January 06, 2009, 04:58:30 PM
so what kind of drills are good for core work
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/abdominalcorestrength1/qt/plank.htm
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/lr/core_exercises/254023/4/
etc
Google is your friend...
Moran is right in one sense that you must strengthen your whole body. There are countless guys who won't do core exercises because they want to be seen lifting macho style weights. just leaving yourself open to torn hamstrings and lower back problems. but ot say core exercises are rubbish , says a lot about him.
Some interesting points of view there lads, but the general feeling I get is that most of ye know a bit but not quite enough, i.e. someone said low reps and high weights leads to hypertrophy which isn't true that type of training is for strength. Another poster said 10K runs don't are one paced and don't train speed etc. and this is not necessarily the case either. In terms of your cardio fitness there a number of ways of going about it but I would recommend that anyone who wants to get a fitness base prior to the start of group training to do some distance running on a soft surface but mix it up a bit a progress slowly. For example start off running 3 mile runs at a comfortable pace, once you can start running 5 milers introduce some 1.5 miles and 3 mile runs at pace. Once team training begins any good coach will be doing primarily interval type training so now you'll be working your anaerobic fitness but you'll already have the aerobic work done which will help you recover from sprints quicker.
P.S. It's no harm to do a 5 mile run once every 2-3 weeks to keep your aerobic system ticking over
As for weights, well it's very hard to give advice as it is a very individual thing but in the off season you should most guys need to get bigger so you should lift weights that you can lift about 10 times for 3-4 sets and eat plenty. As the season gets closer you should be doing more strength type weights i.e. low reps high weights this will give you the strength to do the explosive type work which you will be doing in the summer, which is the olympic style lifting, medicine ball work and plyometric training.
I wouldn't recommend anyone just taking the above as gospel because like I say it is very individualised and you should be assessed for weaknesses before you give someone a program. Oh and do your core work all through, though I would advise against too many sit ups, try and do most of your core work standing up.
Zulu i don't know of any county team that lifts olympic style weights over the summer. At that stage surely its high reps , low weights for maintenance.
For lower body I would do some olympic weights and plyometric training and for the upper body I would be doing press ups (with claps), chip ups, and medicine ball work. Doing two sessions a week, I wouldn't do the olympic lifting on the week of a game but I would definitely do it during the summer. High reps low weight is for increasing endurance in the muscles but you'll already have that type of work done it won't maintain the benefits of previous work. But in fairness what I'm saying is probably more suited to a pro athlete.
I'm thinking of going back to play football (only reserves) for the first time in years, i intend to train with the club and do some work on my own to get my fitness up and lose some weight.
either;
going to spinning class at the gym
or go running the roads.
Which would benefit me more? a lad I know said it would be better to run 2-3 miles at a good pace, rather than slog over 6 or more??
Indiana i agree 100% with your posts....very like how my schedule is shaped. Those looking for advice....id go along
with what he has posted. Best of luck with pre-season and all the best for the new year.
Quote from: the milkman on January 06, 2009, 07:39:05 PM
I'm thinking of going back to play football (only reserves) for the first time in years, i intend to train with the club and do some work on my own to get my fitness up and lose some weight.
either;
going to spinning class at the gym
or go running the roads.
Which would benefit me more? a lad I know said it would be better to run 2-3 miles at a good pace, rather than slog over 6 or more??
I would suggest the road?
Mainly because the more miles you clock running up the more inches you will eventually lose. (my own equation "miles=inches" ;) :D )
Speaking from a little experience (I have to work hard at keeping weight off) I would use running as the better cardio option.
When I cycle in the gym or where-ever I dont think my heart rate gets as fast as it would if I was actually running. I find running a better whole body work out too.
Diet and eating habits are really important. Not eating after 8pm and eating the right things for energy levels that you will burn off with cardio.
There is hundreds of articles on that stuff online anyway.
One last point, running on the road can be very tough on the legs and joints. Make sure your runners are made for road running or training or you could get shin splints or sore knees or ankles.
Just a few quick points from a Mike McGurn talk a few months ago ...
You CAN lift weights all season long - doesn't mean you are ready to - It might be ok for a professional AFL/Rugby player not some GAA guy.
You need to build up to it, and many players do lift - some (top players) even up 2 days before a game - and some lift heavy - the key is to lift heavy, very fast and only one or two reps.
Light weights are not really much use to GAA players - except when starting out the season.
Hypertrophy overrated and is not very useful in sport. Size is useful for the gym but not much else. What he said was most people forget size (even if strength) still equals more weight to be carried around.
Aerobic TRAINING is overrated - Ie. distance running is not a good idea, as it slows players by converting fast to slow twitch fibres but it can be maintained through short games and proper games.
Distance running or 10k runs are pointless for GAA players. Interval runs are useful and small sided games are very good too.
There is a 'contiunuim' though, and difference between, keeping fitness and gaining it.
Interval runs may be needed to GAIN fitness, small sided games to maintain it.
BUT he said if you're an intercounty player playing 12 months of the year you may never need to do a 'fitness' sesssion as your fitness is maintained in games.
McGurn said core strength is very important, but the problem with core strength is that most core injuries come from cores weakened through too much sitting and too much driving.
[IMO - Anyone who tells you you don't need to do core work is an idiot - Or better still as Gerry McEntee who is doing about 2 hernia operations a day and ask him if he thinks you don't need core strength.]
As for olympic lifts - cop on. If any county team is doing Olympic Lifting they are retarded and probably doing them wrong. They are VERY dangerous to do if not trained properly. McGurn said he'd never teach an olympic lift to a GAA player - they don't need it.
---
Mickey Moran and John Morrison would be the last persons I'd be listening to for advice - apart from being good at conjuring up drills and talking absolute rubbish they've never won anything worthwhile. And any nutter who is not a doctor doing voodoo blood tests and pimping magic supplements is just another con-man.
As for Strongman training - To paraphrase Mickey Harte - when a the worlds Strongest man or a strongman wins the All Ireland then we'll do strong man training.
At the end of the day a sensible training coach and good footballers is hard to beat.
Look at the successful 'fitness' coaches who have trained good teams to win something - All Irelands -
- Fergal McCann - Tyrone
- John McCluskey - Queens & Armagh & Crossmaglen
- Pat Flanagan - Tralee IT & Kerry
- Paddy Tally - Tyrone
They all have had very good players and good managers with them.
Though I may have left some others out from around the country?
I don't see how aerobic training could be over rated every played needs some sort of stamina to get through a game and I also though you couldn't convert slow twitch fibres to fast twitch and vice versa. I thought you had a certain amount of each and you could improve them but not have more / lose one and gain the other.
Maybe Zulu could clear this up?
There are 3 types of fibres actaully from what I've read!
Fast, Slow and an inbetween type that convert based on the type of training you do.
So too much slow work transfers them to slow twitch and that is the difference between being able to run all day but not having the burst to catch someone.
Ignoring the positions - There are two broad types of GAA player in my opinion -
1. The perpetual mover
He relies on moving to give him a 1/2 yard or step on his marker - he can move and run all day but in a one on one sprint he's average or just ok. Dooher or the McEntees were examples. It's not that they're slow - they're just not pure fast or pure explosive.
2. The pure explosvie guy
He simply stands still and explodes when the ball comes to him - like Diarmuid O'Sullivan or Tommy Freeman
No we also need to consider some teams have styles based on one or the other which is also a factor. Tyrone predominantly move all day rather than stand and explode - which Kerry tend to do.
But those are BROAD generalisations - I think you get my point.
As for aerobic work being overrated - of course it is - for that reason. No modern county team does long runs - they build it up with other types of short bursts which in essence is aerobic when you look at it - it's just not LSSST - (Long Slow Steady State Training).
Quote from: JMohan on January 07, 2009, 12:44:41 PM
Look at the successful 'fitness' coaches who have trained good teams to win something - All Irelands -
- Peter Donnelly - Tyrone
Forgive my ignorance, but please elaborate?
Quote from: tyrone86 on January 07, 2009, 01:09:52 PM
Quote from: JMohan on January 07, 2009, 12:44:41 PM
Look at the successful 'fitness' coaches who have trained good teams to win something - All Irelands -
- Peter Donnelly - Tyrone
Forgive my ignorance, but please elaborate?
Ignorance was mine
:D
Sorry - my mistake
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2009, 06:18:10 PM
Some interesting points of view there lads, but the general feeling I get is that most of ye know a bit but not quite enough, i.e. someone said low reps and high weights leads to hypertrophy which isn't true that type of training is for strength. Another poster said 10K runs don't are one paced and don't train speed etc. and this is not necessarily the case either. In terms of your cardio fitness there a number of ways of going about it but I would recommend that anyone who wants to get a fitness base prior to the start of group training to do some distance running on a soft surface but mix it up a bit a progress slowly. For example start off running 3 mile runs at a comfortable pace, once you can start running 5 milers introduce some 1.5 miles and 3 mile runs at pace. Once team training begins any good coach will be doing primarily interval type training so now you'll be working your anaerobic fitness but you'll already have the aerobic work done which will help you recover from sprints quicker.
P.S. It's no harm to do a 5 mile run once every 2-3 weeks to keep your aerobic system ticking over
As for weights, well it's very hard to give advice as it is a very individual thing but in the off season you should most guys need to get bigger so you should lift weights that you can lift about 10 times for 3-4 sets and eat plenty. As the season gets closer you should be doing more strength type weights i.e. low reps high weights this will give you the strength to do the explosive type work which you will be doing in the summer, which is the olympic style lifting, medicine ball work and plyometric training.
I wouldn't recommend anyone just taking the above as gospel because like I say it is very individualised and you should be assessed for weaknesses before you give someone a program. Oh and do your core work all through, though I would advise against too many sit ups, try and do most of your core work standing up.
All excellent stuff lads,much appreciated.Il try to take what I can out of all your advice.Zulu you wouldnt mind expanding on the bold bit,about doing core work standing up.I do have problems with my groins which can effect me doing core work lying down.
I was just wondering lads, when do most of ye's start training??
were back on sunday the 18th, i thought we were a bit early but then ive heard of a couple of teams that are back this weekend!
The only olympic style lift for high end gaa players that could be useful is the hang clean. but thats considered to be a strictly olympic style lift, rather part of one. Like i said high end players, forget it at the lower levels. I agree with J Mohan though, in general olympic style lifts wouldn't have much benefit for Gaa players. but thats the only one of its type that i'd see as being useful.
I will refer ye to three websites
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=252 (http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=252)
http://exrx.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=c080279524955b16042b15267a2ddfb2 (http://exrx.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=c080279524955b16042b15267a2ddfb2)
ask all the questions you need to ask. most people on those two boards know what they are talking about
http://www.gaelicperformance.com/trainingtips.asp (http://www.gaelicperformance.com/trainingtips.asp)
some general GAA related stuff
enjoy
Milkman only came back to football last yr after a 6 yr absent. In 2007 I started of in the gym 2 nites a week doing about 3 mile each nite on the thread mill and lifting weights, sit ups etc. Was going ok started a 3 mile run on the roads on saturady mornings once I got to june my knees were killing me and then got this awful pain above my groin which meant I couldn't do sit ups etc could run a bit but the next day I would be in pain. Kept going to the gym doing the weights but Im only really gettin back into it know. My advice is take it slow and pace yourself.
Indiana,
Hang Clean is good,
id also add in the Power Clean as being a terrific lift for GAA Players.
Olympic style lifts for me would be
a. a full clean.
b Clean and Jerk.
c. Snatch.
all 3 very advanced lifts,Not sure id recommend them to anyone other than a very experienced lifter.
QuoteYou CAN lift weights all season long - doesn't mean you are ready to - It might be ok for a professional AFL/Rugby player not some GAA guy.
That is partly true, anyone can lift weights 12 months a year, even beginners the problem is it might take you 2-3 years before you are ready to do Olympic type lifts.
QuoteYou need to build up to it, and many players do lift - some (top players) even up 2 days before a game - and some lift heavy - the key is to lift heavy, very fast and only one or two reps.
QuoteAs for olympic lifts - cop on. If any county team is doing Olympic Lifting they are retarded and probably doing them wrong. They are VERY dangerous to do if not trained properly. McGurn said he'd never teach an olympic lift to a GAA player - they don't need it.
That is a complete contradiction, all olympic style lifting is is rapidly lifting heavy weight. They have to taught properly but the should play an important role any footballers weights program.
QuoteHypertrophy overrated and is not very useful in sport. Size is useful for the gym but not much else. What he said was most people forget size (even if strength) still equals more weight to be carried around.
I disagree would the Aussie Rules lads be too big to play football?
QuoteAerobic TRAINING is overrated - Ie. distance running is not a good idea, as it slows players by converting fast to slow twitch fibres but it can be maintained through short games and proper games.
Complete and utter nonsense, there is still some debate about the extent that fibers can change type but slow long distance running will probably change Type 2 to Type 1 fibers and sprint type training will probably do the opposite. However running 3 - 6 miles (not that these are long runs anyway) 3 times a week for 6 weeks will not effect your fiber profile and even if it did the subsequent interval and short sprint work that you under go later in the season will change them back. Besides your fiber type is largely genetically determined and you'll never change from one to the other regardless of training so don't get bogged down in it.
QuoteAll excellent stuff lads,much appreciated.Il try to take what I can out of all your advice.Zulu you wouldnt mind expanding on the bold bit,about doing core work standing up.I do have problems with my groins which can effect me doing core work lying down.
Think balance work Boojangles, for example doing bicep curles or squats on one leg or doing weights on wobble boards, your core has to work extremely hard to keep you upright - which is what they actually are for. As others have said planks (and the many variations are excellent) as are medicine balls and swiss balls ( though some are suggesting these are over rated now).
Zulu, the olympic lifts he's referring to are the ones Ballyhaise has alluded to. I can't see how a clean and jerk has any relevance for Gaelic Football. But a variation like a hang clean is beneficial for good players. So its more about varaitions than specific Olympic lifts.
I'd agree about the twitch. A guy born with a speed twitch will always be quicker than one who was born without one IF they undergo the same training methods.
In fairness Mc Gurn was interviewed by the All Blacks recently. I'm not saying he's an authority on the subject, but his views probably should be noted to some extent.
Oh absolutely Indiana, from what I hear he is excellent and undoubtedly knows his stuff, in fact I'm about to post on JM's other thread about getting tickets to his seminar. However I disagree with some of his views especially the view that aerobic training is over rated - that's too simplistic an analysis. You are in part correct about the Olympic lifts as it is primarily variations on Olympic lifts I was referring to but I think the snatch and power clean are vital components of the serious GAA athletes program.
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 07, 2009, 09:49:06 PM
Indiana,
Hang Clean is good,
id also add in the Power Clean as being a terrific lift for GAA Players.
Olympic style lifts for me would be
a. a full clean.
b Clean and Jerk.
c. Snatch.
all 3 very advanced lifts,Not sure id recommend them to anyone other than a very experienced lifter.
Jaysus Gerry O Rourke never had us doing them :D :D
I would do a fair bit of free weights on my own but I never heard about any of this olympic lifting.Am I missing out? Or are you banned from giving away secrets to the opposition????
Do you do squats and deadlifts boojangles?
Boojangles has played at a high level Zulu, im sure he has :P
we done no weights with Gerry O Rourke at all,only bodyweight exercises.
Id say Mickey will have us in the gym a good bit.
Olympic lifting,Clean,C and Jerk and Snatch would be outstanding for explosive movement,Jumping and acceleration,
The only problem is,Very few GAA players have the flexibility in their legs and lowerback to do them right as they require, you to get into a ATG (ass to ground)squat position.
I work with an American lad Ex College Football player,and outstanding powerlifter,Learned alot from him about it.
I hate having to do this, but most of your comments Zulu appear to have been just criticisms for the sake of it and for the benefit of someone who might believe them I better correct them.
QuoteQuoteYou CAN lift weights all season long - doesn't mean you are ready to - It might be ok for a professional AFL/Rugby player not some GAA guy.
That is partly true, anyone can lift weights 12 months a year, even beginners the problem is it might take you 2-3 years before you are ready to do Olympic type lifts.
Who was talking about Olympic lifts?
The quoute you took was out of context - We're talking about lifting all season long there.
Quote
QuoteYou need to build up to it, and many players do lift - some (top players) even up 2 days before a game - and some lift heavy - the key is to lift heavy, very fast and only one or two reps.
QuoteAs for olympic lifts - cop on. If any county team is doing Olympic Lifting they are retarded and probably doing them wrong. They are VERY dangerous to do if not trained properly. McGurn said he'd never teach an olympic lift to a GAA player - they don't need it.
That is a complete contradiction, all olympic style lifting is is rapidly lifting heavy weight. They have to taught properly but the should play an important role any footballers weights program.
Certainly not a contradiction. You seem to think that Olympic lifts are the only lifts or only exercises that can be done explosively.
I'll repeat myself - Olympic Lifts are great. For Gaelic Footballers they are very good, but not at all necessary, more importantly they take a long time to master and as part of a bigger picture of conditioning they may have a place - but that's up to the coach after he looks at the complete program.
QuoteQuoteHypertrophy overrated and is not very useful in sport. Size is useful for the gym but not much else. What he said was most people forget size (even if strength) still equals more weight to be carried around.
I disagree would the Aussie Rules lads be too big to play football?
Again - you're looking at the superficial, what appears to be the case and what you see - not what they are doing.
AFL guys are not bulky as in NFL, they may be bigger as a side effect of training - but most AFL/Rugby/Soccer clubs now do not train for hypertrophy/size.
They train for strength, endurance and power and obvisouly size and muscle growth is a side effect - not to mention on average they are taller.
QuoteQuoteAerobic TRAINING is overrated - Ie. distance running is not a good idea, as it slows players by converting fast to slow twitch fibres but it can be maintained through short games and proper games.
Complete and utter nonsense, there is still some debate about the extent that fibers can change type but slow long distance running will probably change Type 2 to Type 1 fibers and sprint type training will probably do the opposite. However running 3 - 6 miles (not that these are long runs anyway) 3 times a week for 6 weeks will not effect your fiber profile and even if it did the subsequent interval and short sprint work that you under go later in the season will change them back. Besides your fiber type is largely genetically determined and you'll never change from one to the other regardless of training so don't get bogged down in it.
I'm afraid you're getting confused here and rushing to criticise for the sake of it.... take a deep breath!
Numerous studies have shown that endurance work lowers power and force production. Is this because of fibre conversion? Yes, partly but it's also other factors. The bottom line is that endurance work will make you slower. Also switching fibre types isn't a slip of a button, it's a long term thing. You certainly have a genetic make up, but there is a great training factor - this is why people train at all. Donkeys will always be Donkeys - but you can make them far faster Donkeys.
Also true Interval work is not speed nor power work - by it's very nature (in the team sport context) so it will not act as a convert back to fast twitch.
Again to come back to the basic point - Endurance work lowers power and force production i.e. speed .... so as a general rule be very careful with endurance work.
And in fact on a side note ... Strength training improves aerobic ability - but I suspect that will be a stretch too far for you!
1991, University of Maryland - strength training improved cycling endurance (independent of changes in oxygen consumption)QuoteAll excellent stuff lads,much appreciated.Il try to take what I can out of all your advice.Zulu you wouldnt mind expanding on the bold bit,about doing core work standing up.I do have problems with my groins which can effect me doing core work lying down.
QuoteThink balance work Boojangles, for example doing bicep curles or squats on one leg or doing weights on wobble boards, your core has to work extremely hard to keep you upright - which is what they actually are for. As others have said planks (and the many variations are excellent) as are medicine balls and swiss balls ( though some are suggesting these are over rated now).
We're discusing power and speed here and for that purpose training on wobble boards or unstable surfaces for athletes in contact sports (apart from occassional rehab for very specific issues) was more or less a fad and has now been dismissed as pretty much a gimmic for team contact sports or athletes looking to increase power output.
So this doesn't go on all week -
Instability reduces power output, impairs Peak concentric and eccentric power, Concentric force, Concentric velocity, Squat depth - (Drinkwater, Pritchett and Behm 2007 IJSPP)
Squat and dead lift have 50-70% greater trunk activation than performing unstable sidebridge and superman exercises - (Hamlyn and Behm 2007 JSCR)
Quote from: INDIANA on January 07, 2009, 10:13:41 PM
Zulu, the olympic lifts he's referring to are the ones Ballyhaise has alluded to. I can't see how a clean and jerk has any relevance for Gaelic Football. But a variation like a hang clean is beneficial for good players. So its more about varaitions than specific Olympic lifts.
I'd agree about the twitch. A guy born with a speed twitch will always be quicker than one who was born without one IF they undergo the same training methods.
In fairness Mc Gurn was interviewed by the All Blacks recently. I'm not saying he's an authority on the subject, but his views probably should be noted to some extent.
McGurn should know - after all he trains professionals
I agree - hang clean maybe - but to be honest clean and jerk isn't worth the hassle or risk.
As for slow and fast twitch ... it's not the actual fibres that are the real issue - it's the total change to a type of training.
Quote from: boojangles on January 07, 2009, 10:44:40 PM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 07, 2009, 09:49:06 PM
Indiana,
Hang Clean is good,
id also add in the Power Clean as being a terrific lift for GAA Players.
Olympic style lifts for me would be
a. a full clean.
b Clean and Jerk.
c. Snatch.
all 3 very advanced lifts,Not sure id recommend them to anyone other than a very experienced lifter.
Jaysus Gerry O Rourke never had us doing them :D :D
I would do a fair bit of free weights on my own but I never heard about any of this olympic lifting.Am I missing out? Or are you banned from giving away secrets to the opposition????
In a one word answer - No
Olympic Lifts are useful, but not at all necessary.
Olympic lifts allow and encourage the player to use power explosively, but this can be develop many other ways and far safer too, with no long learning phase.
Remember the Olympic Lifts are a technical lift competed in the Olympic Games, it takes a long while to master them properly. Incorrect use and incorrect training unless from a very qualified Olympic lifting coach is quite dangerous.
I'm sure there's plenty of lads around the country happy to try and do them and figure they can traing people in them .... delusion is wonderful.
The most important thing about Olympic lifting and best way to think about them is this ...
Olympic lifts as a general rule develop power.
But power is only a % of strength.
In other words - you need to be strong first to the get the most benefit from Olympic lifts.
Start with Squats and Dead lifts
Get strong and in time you can move to Olympic lifts
But in truth most intercounty players will never reach the levels requiring Olympic lifts
Begorra I'm on fire this morning!
JM I wasn't criticizing for the sake of it, far from it, i simply disagree with some of the points you (or McGurn) have made, I won't go back through everything you've said as we could go back and forth all week about the minutiae of different areas but I will make some points.
1. Endurance work will affect your speed
but only if that is all you're doing and you're doing it over a long time. What I'm taking about is early season runs of between 3 and 6 miles these aren't long distances and can be done at pace if you're fit enough. The bottom line is 6 weeks of running 3 times a week for distances of between 3 and 6 miles will not slow you down in any way. That is a physiological fact and even if it wasn't like I said your training for the rest of the year would involve shorter, faster type training which would improve your speed again. And contrary to what you're saying distance running is still a part of many professional team sport training programs. I never employ one paced 'distance' running in any of my sessions but if a player asked me what he could do prior to coming back to training, I'd tell him to do a bit of running to get a good aerobic base.
2. While you're correct, Olympic type lifts aren't the only explosive exercises you can do, they are the best lower body explosive exercises (we're not taking about plyometrics here, just weight lifting) and it is only lower body that GAA players need to really work on. Medicine ball exercises are ideal for upper body explosiveness. And I never said the were necessary, there isn't any single exercise that's essential but they are invaluable and while difficult to learn properly doing them with an experienced partner will remove much of the risk.
3. You are mixing up hypertrophy with NFL size players, all the Irish players who went to Aussie Rules had to bulk up first and this is the mistake many GAA lads make, i.e. the fear that doing weights will make them bulky and cumbersome, this is simply not true. You can bulk up a bit without slowing down and bulking up is a big advantage for footballers, bigger muscles =greater strength and power. The key is to get the balance right and the main problem is most GAa lads are doing body building programs rather than sport specific ones.
QuoteAnd in fact on a side note ... Strength training improves aerobic ability - but I suspect that will be a stretch too far for you!
1991, University of Maryland - strength training improved cycling endurance (independent of changes in oxygen consumption)
JM I'm afraid you fall into the trap of taking a study as gospel, if I had the time or inclination I could find numerous studies that contradict each other in many areas of training. Now I'd have to see the study you refer to above before I could comment on it but I would suspect the strength training they were under going was high rep low weight stuff which might aid muscular endurance but weight training doesn't improve aerobic endurance. You always need to be careful when taking the results from studies as evidence of anything, for example if I did a similar study as the one you refer to and had 10 guys training by cycling and 10 guys training by cycling and weight training and the result was that the 4 most improved cyclists were from the weight/cycling group would that mean that weight training and cycling was better than cycling alone? Maybe, but it could also mean the 4 best athletes happened to be in the weight/cycle group or it could mean that they were slightly less fit and had more room for adaption i.e. it might have nothing to do with the weight training at all.
JMohan
just incase you thought i was,i wasnt offering to attempt to train anyone,im certainly no expert on any of this,
only do Powercleans and less frequently Full Clean.
Tried to do a snatch before,luckily with a light weight,the results were comical. ;D
You Two obviously know your stuff,
But have to back Zulu's point on Endurance,
Our Closest relative sport in terms of similarity would the AFL,
Distance running is still a big part of their off-season and pre-season schedule.
"The Tan" being a good example.
all this talk has got me all excited about going to the gym now. :)
Quote
JM I wasn't criticizing for the sake of it, far from it, i simply disagree with some of the points you (or McGurn) have made, I won't go back through everything you've said as we could go back and forth all week about the minutiae of different areas but I will make some points.
Fair enough, I'll keep the reponses short then.
Quote1. Endurance work will affect your speed but only if that is all you're doing and you're doing it over a long time. What I'm taking about is early season runs of between 3 and 6 miles these aren't long distances and can be done at pace if you're fit enough. The bottom line is 6 weeks of running 3 times a week for distances of between 3 and 6 miles will not slow you down in any way. That is a physiological fact and even if it wasn't like I said your training for the rest of the year would involve shorter, faster type training which would improve your speed again. And contrary to what you're saying distance running is still a part of many professional team sport training programs. I never employ one paced 'distance' running in any of my sessions but if a player asked me what he could do prior to coming back to training, I'd tell him to do a bit of running to get a good aerobic base.
Distance running is not part of any successful teams training involved in a sport similar to GAA
You will get far more specific and better general conditioing for Gaelic Football with less negative affects by avoiding slow state steady running.
The idea of needing an 'aerobic base' for pre-season is outdated by current successful team practice
You appear to disagree with this and you're entitled to.
Quote2. While you're correct, Olympic type lifts aren't the only explosive exercises you can do, they are the best lower body explosive exercises (we're not taking about plyometrics here, just weight lifting) and it is only lower body that GAA players need to really work on. Medicine ball exercises are ideal for upper body explosiveness. And I never said the were necessary, there isn't any single exercise that's essential but they are invaluable and while difficult to learn properly doing them with an experienced partner will remove much of the risk.
Olympic Lifts are whole body, not lower body - which is what they should be used for.
Lower body (power) is not only what GAA players should work on. Upper Body strength is very important - (in fact stop looking at the body as Upper vs Lower anyway)
Med Ball are not Upper Body only - in fact they are a better whole body exercise than Olympic lifts (pound for pound for the GAA player) as they have less training needed, remove risk of injury etc etc.
Quote3. You are mixing up hypertrophy with NFL size players, all the Irish players who went to Aussie Rules had to bulk up first and this is the mistake many GAA lads make, i.e. the fear that doing weights will make them bulky and cumbersome, this is simply not true. You can bulk up a bit without slowing down and bulking up is a big advantage for footballers, bigger muscles =greater strength and power. The key is to get the balance right and the main problem is most GAa lads are doing body building programs rather than sport specific ones.
No I'm not.
If you look at good professional strength training in professional sport (see myofibrillar vs sarcoplasmic) you'll see hypertrophy is a side effect not an aim (or very, very rarely).
Strength and Power matter in sport - not size.
QuoteAnd in fact on a side note ... Strength training improves aerobic ability - but I suspect that will be a stretch too far for you!
1991, University of Maryland - strength training improved cycling endurance (independent of changes in oxygen consumption)
They above study was simply as it says a side note showing you that strength training far from being negative is a very positive thing for aerobic ability.
QuoteJM I'm afraid you fall into the trap of taking a study as gospel, if I had the time or inclination I could find numerous studies that contradict each other in many areas of training. Now I'd have to see the study you refer to above before I could comment on it but I would suspect the strength training they were under going was high rep low weight stuff which might aid muscular endurance but weight training doesn't improve aerobic endurance. You always need to be careful when taking the results from studies as evidence of anything, for example if I did a similar study as the one you refer to and had 10 guys training by cycling and 10 guys training by cycling and weight training and the result was that the 4 most improved cyclists were from the weight/cycling group would that mean that weight training and cycling was better than cycling alone? Maybe, but it could also mean the 4 best athletes happened to be in the weight/cycle group or it could mean that they were slightly less fit and had more room for adaption i.e. it might have nothing to do with the weight training at all.
Strength Training improves an athletes aerobic ability - there's no denying that I'm afraid and that was the point.
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 08, 2009, 04:20:42 PM
You Two obviously know your stuff,
But have to back Zulu's point on Endurance,
Our Closest relative sport in terms of similarity would the AFL,
Distance running is still a big part of their off-season and pre-season schedule.
"The Tan" being a good example.
all this talk has got me all excited about going to the gym now. :)
AFL is close, Rugby is too, Soccer is also - in different ways though
The more successful teams in all those sports do no long distance steady state running, sorry.
Sorry for the long posts - Zulu and others
The reason I posted on that is because they were just somethings that I believed years ago and then guys like McGurn, Moyna, Flanagan spoke at some talks or I read things by Connolly, McCloskey or Henessey or articles I changed the way I thought
But it took a long while
QuoteWe're discusing power and speed here and for that purpose training on wobble boards or unstable surfaces for athletes in contact sports (apart from occassional rehab for very specific issues) was more or less a fad and has now been dismissed as pretty much a gimmic for team contact sports or athletes looking to increase power output.
Sorry forgot to address this one, I wasn't referring to power and strength here, boojangles asked me about core work alternatives to sit ups and unstable surface exercises are very relevant to improving your core. Once you put yourself off balance your core works to keep you upright so any exercise that unbalances you is worthwhile exploring.
QuoteDistance running is not part of any successful teams training involved in a sport similar to GAA
You will get far more specific and better general conditioing for Gaelic Football with less negative affects by avoiding slow state steady running.
Firstly JM nobody is talking about 'slow steady state running', I repeat a 3 mile run isn't a slow steady state run, try run it in 18 minutes or less and you won't be having any conversations with your training partner. And in fairness you can't say that distance running isn't part of any successful team in the world or even this country, you simply don't know this. In fact I know of at least 2 county teams who are doing the kind of distances that I'm referring to as part of their program. The point here is that you don't have to do distance running, like I said I wouldn't do it in a team session myself but it won't harm you or slow you down if you do.
QuoteOlympic Lifts are whole body, not lower body - which is what they should be used for.
Lower body (power) is not only what GAA players should work on. Upper Body strength is very important - (in fact stop looking at the body as Upper vs Lower anyway)
Med Ball are not Upper Body only - in fact they are a better whole body exercise than Olympic lifts (pound for pound for the GAA player) as they have less training needed, remove risk of injury etc etc.
Correct they are total body exercises which is why they are so good but it is the lower body aspect of them that is really beneficial to GAA players. Pat Flanagan (former Kerry coach) had the Kerry lads on a primarily lower body weights program to improve their power and speed over short to middling distances. Again you are correct medicine balls are not only upper body exercises but they mainly focus on the upper body and are ideal for developing the explosive power needed in the upper body for fielding, hand passing, holding off opponents etc. Any muti joint exercise will have an impact on both upper and lower body I'm merely distinguishing for others reading this thread on what each exercise prioritizes.
QuoteIf you look at good professional strength training in professional sport (see myofibrillar vs sarcoplasmic) you'll see hypertrophy is a side effect not an aim (or very, very rarely).
Strength and Power matter in sport - not size.
Sorry now JM but that is nonsense, bigger muscles = greater strength that is a fact, and hyperthrophy is generally the goal in the earlier part of the season, are you telling me Setanta O'Halpin didn't get bigger when he went over to the Aussies. First you get big, then strong and finally you develop power.
QuoteStrength Training improves an athletes aerobic ability - there's no denying that I'm afraid and that was the point.
There is every point in denying it, strength training won't inhibit your aerobic training true but if anyone reading this thread thinks by doing weights they are improving their aerobic abilities (to any worthwhile degree anyway) they'd be wrong. I would doubt that there is any valid study which indicates that strength training alone improves aerobic capabilities.
Oh by the way JM I'm not having a go at you, I'm enjoying discussing this with you and I hope others are finding it interesting or at least useful but I feel you are taking some things at face value when it is far more complicated than that. My own policy is not to take anything as fact and if you had read as many scientific papers as I have on these issues you might see what I'm taking about. I meant to say it before but I would even tell lads not to take what I say as correct, very little IMO is entirely wrong or entirely right. Training the human body is an inexact science and in 10 years from now some of the things we believe now maybe turned on their head. But it is always good to hear alternative points of view, even if your entirely wrong about everything you say and I' entirely right. ;) :D :D
P.S. Do you know if mexicans like myself can go to that talk in Ardmore?
;D
Fair play to you - you're taking your beating like a man!
Quote
QuoteWe're discusing power and speed here and for that purpose training on wobble boards or unstable surfaces for athletes in contact sports (apart from occassional rehab for very specific issues) was more or less a fad and has now been dismissed as pretty much a gimmic for team contact sports or athletes looking to increase power output.
Sorry forgot to address this one, I wasn't referring to power and strength here, boojangles asked me about core work alternatives to sit ups and unstable surface exercises are very relevant to improving your core. Once you put yourself off balance your core works to keep you upright so any exercise that unbalances you is worthwhile exploring.
Yes.
There is alot of hype and gimmicry in the core area.
QuoteQuoteDistance running is not part of any successful teams training involved in a sport similar to GAA
You will get far more specific and better general conditioing for Gaelic Football with less negative affects by avoiding slow state steady running.
Firstly JM nobody is talking about 'slow steady state running', I repeat a 3 mile run isn't a slow steady state run, try run it in 18 minutes or less and you won't be having any conversations with your training partner. And in fairness you can't say that distance running isn't part of any successful team in the world or even this country, you simply don't know this. In fact I know of at least 2 county teams who are doing the kind of distances that I'm referring to as part of their program. The point here is that you don't have to do distance running, like I said I wouldn't do it in a team session myself but it won't harm you or slow you down if you do.
Well to be fair - give me a little credit - I wouldn't say it if I hadn't checked first and asked someone who would know.... and I'm 99.9% certain.
As regards county teams ... I just know of some of the more successful ones and I know they don't advocate it.
Quote
QuoteOlympic Lifts are whole body, not lower body - which is what they should be used for.
Lower body (power) is not only what GAA players should work on. Upper Body strength is very important - (in fact stop looking at the body as Upper vs Lower anyway)
Med Ball are not Upper Body only - in fact they are a better whole body exercise than Olympic lifts (pound for pound for the GAA player) as they have less training needed, remove risk of injury etc etc.
Correct they are total body exercises which is why they are so good but it is the lower body aspect of them that is really beneficial to GAA players. Pat Flanagan (former Kerry coach) had the Kerry lads on a primarily lower body weights program to improve their power and speed over short to middling distances. Again you are correct medicine balls are not only upper body exercises but they mainly focus on the upper body and are ideal for developing the explosive power needed in the upper body for fielding, hand passing, holding off opponents etc. Any muti joint exercise will have an impact on both upper and lower body I'm merely distinguishing for others reading this thread on what each exercise prioritizes.
I won't be pedantic about this .... but I don't agree completely
QuoteQuoteIf you look at good professional strength training in professional sport (see myofibrillar vs sarcoplasmic) you'll see hypertrophy is a side effect not an aim (or very, very rarely).
Strength and Power matter in sport - not size.
Sorry now JM but that is nonsense, bigger muscles = greater strength that is a fact, and hyperthrophy is generally the goal in the earlier part of the season, are you telling me Setanta O'Halpin didn't get bigger when he went over to the Aussies. First you get big, then strong and finally you develop power.
No. This was the old way of thinking.... get big, get strong and then get powerful.
Recently there is a big change away from this approach to just strength and power ignoring hypertrophy. If someone gets strong they MAY get bigger - but the rep ranges and effects are very different for size and hypertrophy.
QuoteQuoteStrength Training improves an athletes aerobic ability - there's no denying that I'm afraid and that was the point.
There is every point in denying it, strength training won't inhibit your aerobic training true but if anyone reading this thread thinks by doing weights they are improving their aerobic abilities (to any worthwhile degree anyway) they'd be wrong. I would doubt that there is any valid study which indicates that strength training alone improves aerobic capabilities.
Well there are. Will it exclusively improve aerobic ability - no. I'm just pointing out that weights will improve it (by left ventricular hypertrophy if you're interested in the mechanism)
QuoteOh by the way JM I'm not having a go at you, I'm enjoying discussing this with you and I hope others are finding it interesting or at least useful but I feel you are taking some things at face value when it is far more complicated than that. My own policy is not to take anything as fact and if you had read as many scientific papers as I have on these issues you might see what I'm taking about. I meant to say it before but I would even tell lads not to take what I say as correct, very little IMO is entirely wrong or entirely right. Training the human body is an inexact science and in 10 years from now some of the things we believe now maybe turned on their head. But it is always good to hear alternative points of view, even if your entirely wrong about everything you say and I' entirely right. ;) :D :D
Same here.
Respectful debate is the only way I'll convince you there are better and newer ways!
QuoteP.S. Do you know if mexicans like myself can go to that talk in Ardmore?
I have no idea - but I think it would be good to attend it!
I'd love to hear Zulu ask McGurn a few of his questions and see what he says!
Just a quick question about the jacknife crunch. I remember I had problems with my back last year and I aggrivated it doing jacknife crunches. Went to the chiropractor and she said they are unnecessary as they place undue stress on your back and you get just as good results doing a straight situp or a from the leg lift.
They are part of a core strengthening programme I'm doing at the minute and I don't think I'm going to risk them bbut just wondering if anyone more in the know than me had an opinion on them.
every programme is individual, thats why generalised team programmes are a waste of time. Over time you will find exercises that don't conform to your body shape,size or whatever. Don't continue to do an exercise that places undue stress on your body. However it should indicate a particular weakness in your body, that you need to correct. But not by doing an exercise that makes the problem worse.
Quote from: Zulu on January 07, 2009, 10:50:30 PM
Do you do squats and deadlifts boojangles?
I do squats yes,wouldnt do much weights on the legs to be honest though as I find that they cause my knees alot of problems lately.but Im open to suggestions because maybe Im doing something wrong? im not being smart here but if your explaining anything to me, keep it simple because I honestly would not not understand alot of what you and JMohan(as interesting as it is) are discussing.The last proper weights programme I would have done was nearly 4 years ago under MartyMcElkannon.I would appreciate any suggestions tho Cheers.
JM you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm working off old theories and am not up with the latest thinking, now while I wouldn't class myself as an strength and conditioning guru all my opinions are based on the most up to date information (that I'm aware of).
Your point about professional teams and distance running is not really applicable to club level GAA, these are professional athletes who are in good shape 12 months of the year. But a club footballer who may not have done a whole lot of physical training in 4 or 5 months will certainly benefit from some aerobic training. But the point is, and you don't seem to be accepting this, is doing some distance running will in no way harm your ability to play football. That's the bottom line, you can say there are other ways of developing your aerobic fitness and there are but they are not any better at improving aerobic capacity than a few weeks of running.
If you want to improve strength you have to lift heavy, if you are lifting heavy without a previous solid base of medium weight using medium reps you are in serious danger of injuring yourself and what does lifting medium to heavy weights with medium reps lead to? - Hypertrophy. I could get into the science of this but we'd all only get bored but anyone who starts off lifting for strength is risking injury simple as.
And JM I don't know who told you that weights will improve aerobic fitness but it doesn't, not to any noticeable degree, one of the main adaption's needed to improve aerobic fitness is an increase in the size and number of mitochondria and weights don't influence this at all.
Boojangles, the best thing is to ask an instructor at your local gym as you would need to be monitored and corrected as you go. But if you want you can just google those exercises and you'll get both a description and, often a video demo of the exercises. Though if you have a specific question I'll try and help you out.
Referring to Zulu and JMohan's debate on distance running, I don't think you're actually in disagreement. I think JMohan is right to say that distance running isn't much use for footballers. It's not even the best way distance runners improve their fitness. They use interval training and tempo runs more often and a distance run about once a week. But the distances Zulu is talking about (3-4 miles) would be classified as tempo runs i.e. at a pace that you're too out of breath to carry a conversation at for 20-30 minutes, and I think these would also be of use to a footballer.
Interval training raises your lactate threshold while tempo runs train you to work at close to your lactate threshold for longer. Because of the nature of football, where you're working then resting then working etc... i think having a higher lactate threshold is more desirable than being able to maintain a work rate close to your lactate threshold for longer. But this is just my opinion of what's best in general and the answer may be different for every footballer (see the point made by someone about explosive players vs always on the move players).
So, I think Zulu and JMohan are both right, and not in disagreement.
(note what I've said is very black and white and as someone pointed out there is a continuum between probably all types of training)
thirteen03 maybe I'm not making myself clear but I'm only saying that distance or tempo running as you call it is fine in the 4-6 weeks of preseason training. It's like me saying that a guy who wants to run a marathon for the first time should start off with 3 - 5 mile runs in the first 3 or 4 weeks. Doing that won't allow him run a marathon but it will give him the initial foundation to start building up the distances required to run a marathon. I agree interval running is more specific to football but you will be doing plenty of that later so while you don't necessarily need to do the longer distance stuff it won't negatively impact upon your ability to play football, it won't make you slower and it will give the aerobic ability to recovery more quickly during your interval runs thus allowing you to put more into them and improve further.
Yep, I get what your saying and I agree totally. If advising someone between interval training and tempo runs before reading this thread I probably would have given interval training the nod, but you make some good points about tempo runs and I would now also encourage them.
I think some confusion arose through use of the term "distance running" which may have been thought to mean runs lasting an hour or more (I've done these as part of football training in the past!). I knew that's not what you meant but you were instead talking about what distance runners call "tempo runs", so I was trying to clear up some confusion.
JMohan I would disagree about hypertrophy being a side effect rather than an aim. The simple fact of the matter is that the capacity of a muscle to generate force is directly proportional to it's cross-sectional area. However this doesn't result in the guy with the biggest muscle being the strongest, just the same as the guy with the highest VO2 max doesn't always win the race. There are other factors involved such as motor unit activation etc. Hypertrophy definitely has a role to play in a proper periodised pre-season training programme as long as people don't lose the run of themselves as sometimes happens and the development of bigger muscles becomes an end in itself. I would also subscribe to the view that first you get bigger, then you get more powerful. Now big is a relative term. We're not talking about lads becoming musclebound. And yes, if lads skipped the hypertrophy phase and started doing power work (aside from the fact that they would probably half-kill themselves) they would inevitably get bigger too given time. But I still think it makes far more sense to have a hypertrophy phase before you start with the power stuff. This is just in general, obviously the subject of the training plan must be taken into consideration. The lower a training base you're coming from, the greater capacity you have to improve. A seasoned weight-trainer could well skip the hypertrophy phase after years of pre-seasons and loads of experience of olympic lifts etc. But I don't think there are many lads like that knocking around the GAA. Certainly not in my experience anyway. It's an interesting topic though and it's nice to see there are people that know their stuff when it comes to this end of things.
Quote from: screenexile on January 08, 2009, 10:12:57 PM
Just a quick question about the jacknife crunch. I remember I had problems with my back last year and I aggrivated it doing jacknife crunches. Went to the chiropractor and she said they are unnecessary as they place undue stress on your back and you get just as good results doing a straight situp or a from the leg lift.
They are part of a core strengthening programme I'm doing at the minute and I don't think I'm going to risk them bbut just wondering if anyone more in the know than me had an opinion on them.
It's tricky Sir
Getting advice on the internet is akin to getting STD advice from a virgin, but as a general rule ... Crunches and basic variations of are fine as part of a balanced program.
Quote from: Zulu on January 08, 2009, 11:29:17 PM
JM you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm working off old theories and am not up with the latest thinking, now while I wouldn't class myself as an strength and conditioning guru all my opinions are based on the most up to date information (that I'm aware of).
It's not for me to judge you - the internet is great for this - I could be a 9 year old for all you know ...
Quote from: Zulu on January 08, 2009, 11:29:17 PMYour point about professional teams and distance running is not really applicable to club level GAA, these are professional athletes who are in good shape 12 months of the year. But a club footballer who may not have done a whole lot of physical training in 4 or 5 months will certainly benefit from some aerobic training.
Agreed. Aerobic ability is needed - I don't argue that at all. My point is the best method to choose is not distance running.
Quote from: Zulu on January 08, 2009, 11:29:17 PMBut the point is, and you don't seem to be accepting this, is doing some distance running will in no way harm your ability to play football.
Well this is where we differ. But like I said that's ok too! :)
Quote from: Zulu on January 08, 2009, 11:29:17 PMThat's the bottom line, you can say there are other ways of developing your aerobic fitness and there are but they are not any better at improving aerobic capacity than a few weeks of running.
Long term for a GAA there are - again this is where we differ
Quote from: Zulu on January 08, 2009, 11:29:17 PMIf you want to improve strength you have to lift heavy, if you are lifting heavy without a previous solid base of medium weight using medium reps you are in serious danger of injuring yourself and what does lifting medium to heavy weights with medium reps lead to? - Hypertrophy.
Yes and no. We have a very different philosophy when it comes to training. I argue that you can lift heavy from very eraly on, once form and speed is managed - and for a large part avoid much hypertrophy. Yes, you always will have some 'hypertrophy'
, but it can be and is best to be avoided for most sports. Strength on the other hand is a different thing.
Quote from: Zulu on January 08, 2009, 11:29:17 PMI could get into the science of this but we'd all only get bored but anyone who starts off lifting for strength is risking injury simple as.
I understand how you might think like that - but trust me on this phrase - you do not need a hypertrophy phase for athletes.
Quote from: Zulu on January 08, 2009, 11:29:17 PMAnd JM I don't know who told you that weights will improve aerobic fitness but it doesn't, not to any noticeable degree, one of the main adaption's needed to improve aerobic fitness is an increase in the size and number of mitochondria and weights don't influence this at all.
Ok, like I said before this isn't the main issue. But strength training can positively influence aerobic ability.
Is it as the preferred method? No.
The reason I made this point was to emphasise the point that Strength Training can positively influence aerobic ability but Distance running can't positively influence strength.
The main reasons strength training can assist and positively influence aerobic ability are through (1) improvements in running effecincy (2) Increasing general power output (3) Ventricular Hypertrophy
I won't pull you up on it but you're point about mitochrondria is not completely accurate either - but I know what you mean.
Quote from: Zulu on January 08, 2009, 11:29:17 PMBoojangles, the best thing is to ask an instructor at your local gym as you would need to be monitored and corrected as you go. But if you want you can just google those exercises and you'll get both a description and, often a video demo of the exercises. Though if you have a specific question I'll try and help you out.
Quote from: thirteen03 on January 09, 2009, 12:13:58 AM
Referring to Zulu and JMohan's debate on distance running, I don't think you're actually in disagreement. I think JMohan is right to say that distance running isn't much use for footballers. It's not even the best way distance runners improve their fitness. They use interval training and tempo runs more often and a distance run about once a week. But the distances Zulu is talking about (3-4 miles) would be classified as tempo runs i.e. at a pace that you're too out of breath to carry a conversation at for 20-30 minutes, and I think these would also be of use to a footballer.
I don't see any benefit in running that distance at a slow steady pace.
The term tempo runs is also generally used for shorter distances in team sports - though it varies according to sport so it's no biggie
Quote from: thirteen03 on January 09, 2009, 12:13:58 AM
Interval training raises your lactate threshold while tempo runs train you to work at close to your lactate threshold for longer. Because of the nature of football, where you're working then resting then working etc... i think having a higher lactate threshold is more desirable than being able to maintain a work rate close to your lactate threshold for longer.
I was waiting for LA to be brought into the debate!
Don't get me started on it
Quote from: thirteen03 on January 09, 2009, 12:13:58 AM
But this is just my opinion of what's best in general and the answer may be different for every footballer (see the point made by someone about explosive players vs always on the move players).
Yes the bottom line is that play philosophy is very important here too
Quote from: thirteen03 on January 09, 2009, 12:13:58 AMSo, I think Zulu and JMohan are both right, and not in disagreement.
(note what I've said is very black and white and as someone pointed out there is a continuum between probably all types of training)
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:05:42 AM
JMohan I would disagree about hypertrophy being a side effect rather than an aim.
Well you can disagree - but it still doesn't change the fact that training for strength and training for hypertrophy are too completely different things
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:05:42 AMThe simple fact of the matter is that the capacity of a muscle to generate force is directly proportional to it's cross-sectional area.
1. That's not entirely correct
2. A muscles ability to generate force is not the same as an athletes - ie. intra and intermuscular strength
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:05:42 AMHowever this doesn't result in the guy with the biggest muscle being the strongest,
Exactly - size is a by product
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:05:42 AMjust the same as the guy with the highest VO2 max doesn't always win the race. There are other factors involved such as motor unit activation etc.
Yes - and they are FAR more important.
Focus on those
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:05:42 AMHypertrophy definitely has a role to play in a proper periodised pre-season training programme
Aha - BINGO -
1. The problem is that your idea of a periodised plan is wrong.
2. Persiodisation for team sports is dead
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:05:42 AMas long as people don't lose the run of themselves as sometimes happens and the development of bigger muscles becomes an end in itself. I would also subscribe to the view that first you get bigger, then you get more powerful.
No ... old school thinking.
Hypertrophy has very little (i.e. nothing) to do with it - I'm saying Get strong then get powerful.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:05:42 AMNow big is a relative term. We're not talking about lads becoming musclebound. And yes, if lads skipped the hypertrophy phase and started doing power work (aside from the fact that they would probably half-kill themselves) they would inevitably get bigger too given time. But I still think it makes far more sense to have a hypertrophy phase before you start with the power stuff.
No it doesn't. Do strength then do power ... well actually do both together - but lets keep it simple here for now or I'll really lose you all ;)
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:05:42 AMThis is just in general, obviously the subject of the training plan must be taken into consideration. The lower a training base you're coming from, the greater capacity you have to improve. A seasoned weight-trainer could well skip the hypertrophy phase after years of pre-seasons and loads of experience of olympic lifts etc.
First part correct.
Olympic lifts has very little to do with it
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:05:42 AMBut I don't think there are many lads like that knocking around the GAA. Certainly not in my experience anyway.
You're not looking in the right places then! :)
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:05:42 AMIt's an interesting topic though and it's nice to see there are people that know their stuff when it comes to this end of things.
Quote from: Zulu on January 09, 2009, 12:26:41 AM
thirteen03 maybe I'm not making myself clear but I'm only saying that distance or tempo running as you call it is fine in the 4-6 weeks of preseason training.
Ok
Try this ... rather than running 3K
What is wrong with running 6 x 400m at an easy pace with long recoveries?
Quote from: Zulu on January 09, 2009, 12:26:41 AM
It's like me saying that a guy who wants to run a marathon for the first time should start off with 3 - 5 mile runs in the first 3 or 4 weeks. Doing that won't allow him run a marathon but it will give him the initial foundation to start building up the distances required to run a marathon.
You see this is the first mistake - people think stamina and then look for the best stamina runners and try and use their rpinciples of training when it's something completly different
Quote from: Zulu on January 09, 2009, 12:26:41 AM
I agree interval running is more specific to football but you will be doing plenty of that later so while you don't necessarily need to do the longer distance stuff it won't negatively impact upon your ability to play football, it won't make you slower and it will give the aerobic ability to recovery more quickly during your interval runs thus allowing you to put more into them and improve further.
You said you don't need to do it - exactly
It will not make you faster - it will prevent you getting faster
It will only encourage over use injuries
It will still have the same aerobic benefits - but added speed benefits?
Am I starting to convince you?
:)
Quote from: thirteen03 on January 09, 2009, 12:53:27 AM
Yep, I get what your saying and I agree totally. If advising someone between interval training and tempo runs before reading this thread I probably would have given interval training the nod, but you make some good points about tempo runs and I would now also encourage them.
I think some confusion arose through use of the term "distance running" which may have been thought to mean runs lasting an hour or more (I've done these as part of football training in the past!). I knew that's not what you meant but you were instead talking about what distance runners call "tempo runs", so I was trying to clear up some confusion.
Somebody better define the length and distance of the tempo run first or just like distance running we'll get caught up in it!
Ok let me post a proper post here and clarify a few things as it seems a few here are starting to get a little confused...
I was very, very lucky to spend a full day just before Christmas day when i was supposed to be shopping with one Irish international team fitness coach, his friend who was one of the countries top fitness coaches - oh and (multiple) All-Ireland winner and a third guy I had never heard of before. One of them has been mentioned on here before.
They were all home on holidays for a few days before the Christmas games started and catching up with each other before heading away. So I knew one and met him for breakfast to ask him some training questions and the other two turned up they didn't mind me staying on and we chatted had breakfast, that went into lunch and then dinner just shooting the breeze and I'd ask a question and they'd debate it among themesleves and agree on most things but listening to them was incredible. I just happened to be there to meet one of them I asked after 3 hours could I get a notepad a pen and take notes! I'm sure you've been places where this kind of thing happens unexpectedly.
They were happy to help me, answer (stupid) simple questions and even helped me with names, books and people to look up.
To be honest they lost me on many things and got very detailed but a lot things I thought was correct about they told me I was way wrong.
From my notes ...
- One there are many ways to Rome
- Sports Science is evolving
- There is a BIG difference between the real world and Sports Science
- The real world - practice of sport at the highest level - is ahead of sports science in academia - so take what you learn in college with a pinch of salt
- Some top teams - soccer - have terrible training regimes but they just buy good players
- Distance running is not used anymore
- Some teams have tried NO preseason running in Rugby - one even came second in Europe one year
- Hypertrophy is not used by many of the top teams as an aim in training anymore
- Aerobic exercise in the form of distance work or similar is counter productive - cortsiol, injury, fibre type, stress
- You don't need olympic lifts - there's better ways
- There is no right or wrong - just better and wiser
- Bang-for-buck was a phrase used alot
- VO2 max is a waste of time
- It's all about power
- Power = Strength x Speed
I have lots of other stuff written down like about about supplements and most being a waste of money, exercises to do and what to avoid.
One of them made a very interesting prediction.
- He said that he thought there would be MORE injuries in the first few months of this year as a result of the break this winter than ever before - that will be interesting to watch
- Interestingly too - He also said Burn-out was a complete 'scam'
- He claimed that burnout (and at this stage was quoting high level reserach and biology/physiology/pyschology making my eyes twist) was more to do with improper coaching than any number of games.
I should point out all the guys had trained (or advised first hand) inter-county level GAA footballers so it wasn't a case of just saying what they would do, they actually have done - so that was helpful.
Interesting Side note
The third guy left first and when he left the other two asked me did I know who he worked with - of course I didn't even know his name before that morning - but it turns out he works for the two top rugby and soccer teams in the world! I mean top - and is regarded as one of the smartest fitness advisors in the world. Very humble and very very smart guy. But it was amazing who differently he looked at the way we train.
Of course I went home delighted to the raging missus who hadn't seen me all day with no Christmas shopping done after all that!
It was a bit like spending a day picking the brains of Mick O'Dywer, Alex Ferguson or Big Joe about football - but in a fitness sense. Certainly chnaged the way I looked at things. And some of the stories were brilliant too.
Of course all that means nothing - and at the end of the day what does it mean? - but it was very interesting to see the way they looked at training compared to the way I did - very differently
Now better do some work
This thread had been quite an education guys so well done and thanks! :)
Some great responses and kudos to you guys for keeping it a healthy debate and not starting to tear shreds off each other.
I have a few burning questions to finish off....
About three years ago when I first started gyming I was 11 & 1/4 stone.
Im now just over 13 stone which is more than efficient size/hypertrothy for my height, which is almost 5-11.
Im not carrying much fat at the minute but I will get leaner as the training starts back.
I change my program every 6-10 weeks, depending on the time of year and goals.
What I want to start working on is developing 'power' as I have the strength at this stage IMO.
At the moment I have three workouts: Chest & back, Arms and Shoulders, and Legs.
Depending on how much time I have, I may do abs and core work and stretching 2-3 times a week with those workouts.
I would normally do 3 sets of reps 10-8-6.
10 reps lifting moderate weight, 8 lifting a heavier weight and 6 or less of a weight I find really hard.
The odd time I might do a drop-set workout to get the very last out of the muscles, by finishing each exercise with multiple (12-15) light reps of a light weight.
I used to take protein supplements when I was gyming last year and the year before but I dont need them as much now.
My understanding is that, to develop the power I need to be doing heavy to heaviest weights... explosively or in an explosive manner ?
EG when benching, I bring the bar down slowly and then push the bar with as much might/speed I can manage.
In the same way I plan to do jump squats instead of normal squats ?
If I apply the explosive technique to all exercises have I got the right idea when trying to develop power?
Or do you do drop-sets all the time?
Is there any other highly recommended exercises for power?
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 09, 2009, 11:46:05 AM
This thread had been quite an education guys so well done and thanks! :)
Some great responses and kudos to you guys for keeping it a healthy debate and not starting to tear shreds off each other.
I have a few burning questions to finish off....
Couldnt agree more.Some lads on this board could do with reading this thread if only to see how a topic should be debated.
Abbeysider just a quick question,Are you playing Inter-County football?
One can't relly give out advice on the internet for 2 reasons ...
1. I could be a complete idiot
2. It's completely irresponsible for any practiconer of substance
Specifically to training ...
1. There's far too many variables to get from a web or email chat
2. The changes are too frequent etc
many more ..
In general terms ....
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 09, 2009, 11:46:05 AM
In the same way I plan to do jump squats instead of normal squats ?
Hmmm - yeh - you can and if you are going to - do them with a smith machine for safety and with lighter weight making sure the core is tight and posture good.
Not my preferred choice.
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 09, 2009, 11:46:05 AM
Is there any other highly recommended exercises for power?
Med Ball throws, Explosive throws or Hill sprints
Again all this is just for entertainment - it's hard to be anyway exact.
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 09, 2009, 11:46:05 AM
This thread had been quite an education guys so well done and thanks! :)
Some great responses and kudos to you guys for keeping it a healthy debate and not starting to tear shreds off each other.
Well all credit to the lads for keeping it amicable ...
It's great to have a respectful debate where you can share information - in fact if it started(s) to get heated or agressive I'd just walk - Why would you bother anyway?
Quote from: boojangles on January 09, 2009, 12:27:48 PM
Abbeysider just a quick question,Are you playing Inter-County football?
No definitely, not boojangles! I wish I was good enough though ;)
I play at a very modest level but enjoy fitness and the gym
I wouldn't recommend jump squats for Gaa players. You'd want to be very strong at ordinary squats before trying those. And to be honest I think they are unecessary for Gaa players. Many people do jump squats incorrectly, I've often seen it in the gym and they should be largely reserved for professional players in my view.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 09, 2009, 01:20:20 PM
I wouldn't recommend jump squats for Gaa players. You'd want to be very strong at ordinary squats before trying those. And to be honest I think they are unecessary for Gaa players. Many people do jump squats incorrectly, I've often seen it in the gym and they should be largely reserved for professional players in my view.
I thought that jump squats with a relatively light weight on a Barbell or Dumbbells will help increase your vertical leap if you are doing a jump program.
I have read that in a few places. But obviously there are lots of additional exercises that go with it.
Quote from: JMohan on January 09, 2009, 01:05:15 PM
One can't relly give out advice on the internet for 2 reasons ...
...
Thats grand, ill research it on my own anyway.
But I will keep in mind: Power = Strength x Speed
Ill try and apply that a bit more
JMohan, if you're going to argue that a muscles capacity to generate force isn't directly proportional to it's cross-sectional area, could you cite some articles that support this? We all know that there are strength gains in the first few weeks of a training programme without any corresponding increase in muscle size, which is of course down to the neural aspect, but all other things being equal a bigger muscle will generate more force than a smaller muscle.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:40:38 PM
JMohan, if you're going to argue that a muscles capacity to generate force isn't directly proportional to it's cross-sectional area, could you cite some articles that support this?
Well I would if that was the point of my argument ...
What I am saying is that ...
For an athlete, in this specific case - a GAA player - muscle size is NOT the most important factor nor is it the determing factor in strength and power development or expression.Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 01:40:38 PM
We all know that there are strength gains in the first few weeks of a training programme without any corresponding increase in muscle size, which is of course down to the neural aspect, but all other things being equal a bigger muscle will generate more force than a smaller muscle.
It doesn't end after a few weeks either - If you are keen to expand this look at things such as preferential hypertrophy, variations in hypertrophy adpatation such as myofibrillar hypertrophy and like I say that's just the mechanical adaptation - not even looking at neural or inter muscluar coordination.
Bottom line - you do not need to develop hypertrophy to develop strength or power.
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 09, 2009, 01:38:46 PM
Quote from: JMohan on January 09, 2009, 01:05:15 PM
One can't relly give out advice on the internet for 2 reasons ...
...
Thats grand, ill research it on my own anyway.
But I will keep in mind: Power = Strength x Speed
Ill try and apply that a bit more
Develop strength in the gym and use Hill Sprints to coordinate power
If you want to pm me I'm open to it my good man
Quote from: JMohan on January 09, 2009, 02:04:19 PM
Bottom line - you do not need to develop hypertrophy to develop strength or power.
That's true, but ultimately you will be limited in the extent that you can increase both if the muscle doesn't get any bigger.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 02:30:21 PM
Quote from: JMohan on January 09, 2009, 02:04:19 PM
Bottom line - you do not need to develop hypertrophy to develop strength or power.
That's true, but ultimately you will be limited in the extent that you can increase both if the muscle doesn't get any bigger.
Sorry my dear man - you'll have to explain that for me - I'm struggling to understand what you mean - could be just I'm getting brain numb!
Any factor which influences the force generating capacity of a muscle will, by extension, influence the power generating capacity of a muscle.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 02:54:49 PM
Any factor which influences the force generating capacity of a muscle will, by extension, influence the power generating capacity of a muscle.
Yes - but that's stating the obvious
Stop looking narrowly at the muscle - look at the whole body and the influencing factors.
It's not just simply increase size and all is better - it's a complex balance.
Here's a few other points to consider ...
- Once you increase size - you have to carry it
- Muscle needs energy to survive - energy costs rise
- Inter and intra coordination changes etc etc
- If you develop fibres they must be fast twitch
- The wrong fibre type training become a negative
People think size is important -
Forget about hypertrophy and train for strenght and power
Be lighter, very strong and fast = powerful
JM I'm finding it difficult to see where you're coming from, you suggest most of your info comes from listening to, talking to experts or reading books yet you seem to have a fairly good understanding of the science which leads me to believe you have or are studying in this area. However you also say some things which, with respect, lead me to suspect that you don't really have that in-depth understanding of these things that is needed (no offense). For example, those fitness coaches you spoke to during Christmas agreed there are 'many ways to Rome', yet to can't seem to accept that 6 weeks of aerobic work is a good method of improving early season fitness as part of an overall training program. You even incorrectly suggest that this will slow you down or that you may suffer from over use injuries and this is just plain wrong, the fact is any type of activity which raises your heart rate sufficiently high whether it is running, indoor soccer or tennis will benefit a footballer and certainly will do him no harm if done only in the early part of the season. You also use a rugby team as an example of a team which doesn't do 'distance' running, well rugby is a very different sport and they never did too much distance stuff in that sport. You are comparing a sport with a low aerobic requirement with a sport that has a fairly high aerobic requirement.
I also feel many of your opinions are more suited to the professional game, for example your view that hypertrophy can be skipped, I don't accept it can or in fact that it is, all rugby players for example are doing weights from a young age so they have undergone hypertrophy and therefore you may be able to focus on strength and power with them. However I think that it would be irresponsible for any coach to start a 23 year old GAA player with no weight lifting experience on a strength program without first developing a base.
I also can't understand how slow 400m runs with long rest periods in between reps can benefit any field athlete, though maybe i have misunderstood you on this one.
Quote from: JMohan on January 09, 2009, 03:15:11 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 02:54:49 PM
Any factor which influences the force generating capacity of a muscle will, by extension, influence the power generating capacity of a muscle.
Yes - but that's stating the obvious
Stop looking narrowly at the muscle - look at the whole body and the influencing factors.
It's not just simply increase size and all is better - it's a complex balance.
Here's a few other points to consider ...
- Once you increase size - you have to carry it
- Muscle needs energy to survive - energy costs rise
- Inter and intra coordination changes etc etc
- If you develop fibres they must be fast twitch
- The wrong fibre type training become a negative
People think size is important - Forget about hypertrophy and train for strenght and power
Be lighter, very strong and fast = powerful
Could you clarify what you mean by developing fibres? Do you mean changing type 2 oxidative fibres to type 2 glycolytic?
Just want to make sure we're not talking about hyperplasia.
You won't change fiber type to any great degree when training for GAA, your fiber profile is what it is for the most part anyway. But you'll only really change fiber type if you sprint train only or if you distance run only, when training for GAA your not doing enough of either to effect real chnage's IMO.
I'd agree with you to be honest.
You're largely stuck with the hand you've been dealt.
Quote from: Zulu on January 09, 2009, 03:24:43 PM
JM I'm finding it difficult to see where you're coming from, you suggest most of your info comes from listening to, talking to experts or reading books yet you seem to have a fairly good understanding of the science which leads me to believe you have or are studying in this area. However you also say some things which, with respect, lead me to suspect that you don't really have that in-depth understanding of these things that is needed (no offense). For example, those fitness coaches you spoke to during Christmas agreed there are 'many ways to Rome', yet to can't seem to accept that 6 weeks of aerobic work is a good method of improving early season fitness as part of an overall training program. You even incorrectly suggest that this will slow you down or that you may suffer from over use injuries and this is just plain wrong, the fact is any type of activity which raises your heart rate sufficiently high whether it is running, indoor soccer or tennis will benefit a footballer and certainly will do him no harm if done only in the early part of the season. You also use a rugby team as an example of a team which doesn't do 'distance' running, well rugby is a very different sport and they never did too much distance stuff in that sport. You are comparing a sport with a low aerobic requirement with a sport that has a fairly high aerobic requirement.
I also feel many of your opinions are more suited to the professional game, for example your view that hypertrophy can be skipped, I don't accept it can or in fact that it is, all rugby players for example are doing weights from a young age so they have undergone hypertrophy and therefore you may be able to focus on strength and power with them. However I think that it would be irresponsible for any coach to start a 23 year old GAA player with no weight lifting experience on a strength program without first developing a base.
I also can't understand how slow 400m runs with long rest periods in between reps can benefit any field athlete, though maybe i have misunderstood you on this one.
I'm getting tired of all the splitting of posts. :)
No offense taken I don't expect it to be easy to follow - or even accept.
To clarify - I think there are better ways than using distance running to prepare for GAA. Obvisouly if you want to use distance running go ahead.
The rugby example is just one example - and the problem with using examples is once one person says one thing someone else gives another example and it becomes a 'my daddy is bigger than your daddy' thing. But the point is that distance running is not used in pro sport.
Rather than simply say I'm 'plain wrong' - consider it and see if you can see any merit in what I'm saying and try and understand.
Talking about a 23 yo GAA player starting weights etc is taking small examples which we could argue about all day - and I'm afraid here doesn't give me enough space to explain in detail the approach - but it is possible to keep reps low, build strength and not need a base.
When I mean slow I mean approx 70%
Inter county vs club is very different of course - but the principles should be the same in general
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 04:04:05 PM
Quote from: JMohan on January 09, 2009, 03:15:11 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 02:54:49 PM
Any factor which influences the force generating capacity of a muscle will, by extension, influence the power generating capacity of a muscle.
Yes - but that's stating the obvious
Stop looking narrowly at the muscle - look at the whole body and the influencing factors.
It's not just simply increase size and all is better - it's a complex balance.
Here's a few other points to consider ...
- Once you increase size - you have to carry it
- Muscle needs energy to survive - energy costs rise
- Inter and intra coordination changes etc etc
- If you develop fibres they must be fast twitch
- The wrong fibre type training become a negative
People think size is important - Forget about hypertrophy and train for strenght and power
Be lighter, very strong and fast = powerful
Could you clarify what you mean by developing fibres? Do you mean changing type 2 oxidative fibres to type 2 glycolytic?
Just want to make sure we're not talking about hyperplasia.
I simply mean that you must train in a manner that preferentially recruits fast twitch fibres
Quote from: Zulu on January 09, 2009, 04:24:29 PM
You won't change fiber type to any great degree when training for GAA, your fiber profile is what it is for the most part anyway. But you'll only really change fiber type if you sprint train only or if you distance run only, when training for GAA your not doing enough of either to effect real chnage's IMO.
To a large extent yes - but look at the proportion of training - overall
Is it more inclined to
develop fast or slow twitch?
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 04:49:30 PM
I'd agree with you to be honest.
You're largely stuck with the hand you've been dealt.
Agreed - however like I said a few posts back
1. If you don't accept improvements can be made - why bother training at all? Lets just do genetic tests and see who is the best athlete?
2. You can't make a donkey into a race horse but you can sure make a donkey a lot faster donkey!
Obvisouly we're starting to go round in circles a little here, but if you look at what I've said and then go look for the research to see if it's possible or ask people who are training successful teams I think it will come together for you.
If not you're welcome to pm me.
Have a good weekend guys and thanks for a great debate!
Quote from: JMohan on January 09, 2009, 05:03:47 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2009, 04:49:30 PM
I'd agree with you to be honest.
You're largely stuck with the hand you've been dealt.
Agreed - however like I said a few posts back
1. If you don't accept improvements can be made - why bother training at all? Lets just do genetic tests and see who is the best athlete?
2. You can't make a donkey into a race horse but you can sure make a donkey a lot faster donkey!
My comment about being stuck with the hand you're dealt with was purely in relation to fibre type.
You are of course right that everyone can improve greatly with training.
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.htmll (http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.htmll)
any information you will EVER need about training - power, strength, endurance
broken down by muscle groups, different machines availablem nutrition, whatever
JM you might be gone for the weekend so you might not see this post but with respect, I feel some of your post are a bit condescending (though I'm sure this isn't what you intend). Your coming across a bit like a guy looking at a bunch of cave men banging rocks together to get a spark while your lighting fags with a zippo. I think you are suggesting some of us are a bit close minded and should maybe open up to new research well I'm going to take your advice and do a bit of research over the weekend might I suggest you do the same because in my experience there is generally research that contradicts your beliefs regardless of what they are. Have a good weekend.
Quote from: AbbeySider on December 14, 2006, 02:00:02 PM
in 1992 the Mayo team were made push cars around car parks as part of their training.
We were the laughing stock of the nation at the time!
what makes you think anything has changed?
hows it goin lads,
been readin this thread closely the last wshile and its a very interesting one, few posters seem to know there stuff, not trying to change the subject but could anyone give me a few ideas on re-strenghtening the muscles weakened by tearing the medial ligament of the knee, any sort of rehab would be appreciated.
thanks
3000 i think you should see a physio.It would be impossible for anyone to give you a rehab program without seeing you and testing your knee out and talking to you about it.
Ah something I know a bit about. I think if all has healed you will need general knee strengthening. The session I do at the minute incorporates the following:
One legged squats 3 sets of 12 reps at a slightly difficult weight. This mainly for the quads, glutes an hamstring.
Dead lift around 60-70kg 3 sets of 10. Again for the quads, glutes and hamstring.
One legged Calf raises off a step, 3 sets of as many as you can until you fail.
Bridging lying flat on the ground with 2 legs bent on the swiss ball, then lift your ass and push the ball out and back in usually 3 sets of 12 to work the hamstrings.
Pelvic dip. Stand on a step with your affected leg keeping the back straight. Now drop your other leg and pull it back up to cebtre yourself again. 3 sets to fail. This works on your adductors.
I wouldn't do all these sets in a row though as it can be touh at the start I would work through each exercise once and then repeat them all again.
Depending on how far into your rehab you are you might look into mor impact work suh as siamese squats, jumping lunges and some hopping exercises. If you want some of those I can give you a few of those as well.
As BB has said though you will need to see a physio to get a more personalised programme for yourself to get back properly. Knee's are a hoor of a thing and i you're not completely right when yo ucom back you can do serious damage!
Happy Monday guys ...
Ok, yeh got a few questions and pm's, about my posts and it's a debate on a number of fronts - Happy to debate the only problem is getting time to explain/defend everything.
As far as being condescending - far from it Sur - and that smacks a little of paranoia - I am confident in what I am saying and I know that sooner or later you'll come around to my way of thinking! :)
In all seriousness though Zulu, don't take any offense, just lightening the tone of the posts so we don't get too serious - and fair play to you - it's great to be able to debate without any bitching or bullshit - even if you completely disagree with me.
I laughed at the zippo and fags analogy though - hilarious image!
Ok ... had a few more pm's on this ...
Science or Practice
Science is great as a resource - but practice of science is where it matters most and while we can all quote papers and references it is not helpful really as it confuses the issue. Many scientific papers in the area of sports science are drawn from studies conducted on aging sedentary people and the conclusions are not directly applicable to the real world not to mention sometimes late to press.
Practice on the other hand is at the business end of sport. It's where the science meets the real world. However even in the real world there is a lot of poor practices - even at top clubs. The bottom line is that there is no one solution to fit all. So i think people coaching must do four things ...
1. Understand basic science
2. Understand the approaches of the top teams
3. Make up our own mind from testing both in practice
4. Keep an open mind to change
It must also be noted that science is not exact nor concrete. Even today concepts we have about training are being challenged and changed.
Hypertrophy is not the best training approach to be adopted in Gaelic Football
I'm talking about the BEST approach - not a good approach or a useful - I mean the BEST approach, and if you ask me is hypertrophy such an approach - certainly not.
Training for hypertrophy is non-sensical in my humble opinion. Like I've previously stated, general hypertrophy means the player gets bigger and heavier.
Does a hypertrophied player get stronger? Of course - and more powerful? Yes. Heavier? Yes.
However do they pound for pound get stronger, faster and more powerful? NO!!!!!
And that's what matters.
Problems with Hypertrophy
There are a number of issues with general hypertrophy.
Getting a player heavier means that certain muscle groups grow - possibly those not needed as much and provide extra muscle - not needed to the same degree as others. If we choose to go down this route we need to understand the greater loading on the body and the fact it's very costly in terms of energy expenditure and demand, which increases even more during a game, which means a far greater calorific intake is needed increasing organism stressors not to mention the loading on joints - even if marginal. Such a hypertrophy now needs more capilarisation to support slower twitch fibres not needed to the same degree as faster twitch fibres which you've probably neglected in the search for general size. This is concept is promoted by bodybuilding and such sports where they don't consider that players need to cover ground and support the new muscle. Then we have coaches here worried about time under tension and getting different hypertrophy styles mixed up.
The Best Approach
A better approach is to attempt to maintain a weight close to that which the body is used to which means that joints don't need to adapt to increase in weight nor the pulmonary system to support it. Develop strength overall by focusing on and specifically hypertrophy of specifically fast twitch fibres - NOT general all over hypertrophy and hypertrophy of slower twitch fibres which have little benefit. This means the body as a unit can generate more force and therefore since body-weight is kept the same - be faster - much faster.
Note: I haven't even mentioned neural considerations. Nor will I as that is a completely different mine field.
Regarding fibre type and changing fibre type. You are more or less born with certain fibre types - which don't change a whole pile in percentage terms - BUT they do change in volume and more importantly than any of this is the fact the third type of fibre are nearly termed 'intermediate' and can be influenced to act more as fast twitch - IF training is such designed.
Making the Workhorse a faster workhorse
You see you can't really change a fibre as such - science regards it as impossible to change a cell - though there are some 'grey' examples. But we can convert the function/action of the fibre.
Someone said you only affect fibre if you're doing marathons or sprints all the time - but this is a bit narrow viewed. What does a Full Foward do? Sprint! That's it. Nothing else really.
So how do we get faster? We help make the slower player more explosive
- By developing the fibres he needs most - fast twitch
- By avoiding over emphasis of slow twitch fibres - (avoiding slow or distance running)
- 'Converting' the intermediate fibres to mimic fast twitch or take on their characteristics
Get Big then Get Strong then Get Power? ..... NO!
Someone suggested get bigger and then get more powerful - this is not the optimal approach due to the nature of the fibres developed. In order to get size you would have developed mostly slower twitch fibres and these would have limited if arguably any use to you when trying to develop power. This is backwards. These people usually quote periodisation as the reason or proof - this is a false and extinct concept.
The Supercar
Look at the manufacture of supercars. They don't build the biggest thing they can and then put the biggest engine in it do they? No, why? Because it's the weight issue. Instead they get the most powerful engine they can and get the leanest function design and chassis they can and put it all together. Then they take everything out that is not needed to leave it as functionally light as possible - the way a footballer should be.
Does Size Matter?
Of course people think you need to be big to hit guys - (there is not as much contact as there was in the older days) - if you're fast enough you won't get hit as much! Also the heavier you are the more it will cost you as the game continues so that in the final quarter this is why heavier guys tend to slow.
I'd rather have a fast mobile explosive wiry team than a big cumbersome team any day ...
The Misinterpreted 'Aerobic base'
Actually this is as fictious as the 'Get big, get strong, get power' idea.
This does depend on what level we're talking about to some degree. If someone playing 4th division or whatever wants to go for road runs, well away you go. I don't regard it as the BEST approach. I'm not saying you'll die or anything - it's just not the most 'specific' or useful approach to developing fitness for football.
Someone mentioned a while back that the Aerobic content of football and rugby are very different - yeh but we can say that about positions in GAA. What similarity is there between a Full Forward and Midfielder? Well you'd be amazed at how many positions are similar. In fact a top intercounty footballer in the full forward line could easily have a lower aerobic capacity than a rugby player of similar standard.
The biggest issue with most players today is that they do so much volume of all types of training - they don't develop speed to any great degree.
I'm not sure if that has convinced you - I have tried!
No matter - best of luck at whatever training approach you take on and stay healthy.
That's a good post and while I disagree with some of it I'd be nit picking if I were to get into the detail of it. However I have to correct you on one or two points...
QuoteMany scientific papers in the area of sports science are drawn from studies conducted on aging sedentary people
That really isn't true but applying any scientific work to the field is questionable.
Without going into the details of your post on hypertrophy and aerobic training I feel you are missing the point, there is a process there where you you develop one aspect first and then build on that. I think you are skipping an important training goal by advocating what your saying. But the reality is if we invited 10 genuine experts (i.e. the top guys in the world) they wouldn't agree on many things either and this as must be taken into consideration by everyone. Training is very individual and there is much we still don't know so as you say there is no absolute right or wrong.
QuoteQuote from: Zulu on January 13, 2009, 08:56:32 PM
That's a good post and while I disagree with some of it I'd be nit picking if I were to get into the detail of it. However I have to correct you on one or two points...
QuoteMany scientific papers in the area of sports science are drawn from studies conducted on aging sedentary people
That really isn't true but applying any scientific work to the field is questionable.
Well, if you look at alot of studies referenced for both strength and aerobic areas these are the only available populations for many long term studies - but the point being not all studies are equal.
QuoteWithout going into the details of your post on hypertrophy and aerobic training I feel you are missing the point, there is a process there where you you develop one aspect first and then build on that. I think you are skipping an important training goal by advocating what your saying.
No. This is where we disagree.
You are of the opinion, correct me if I'm wrong, we need to complete stages before we move to another - this is in my opinion outdated, not correct nor the BEST approach.
We can develop physical attributes simultaneously and to a far greater degree than you suggest. The human body doesn't work in stages or in blocks, it is alot more malable than that and provding there is some logic and repsect for it, strength, power etc can be developed more or less simultaneously.
QuoteBut the reality is if we invited 10 genuine experts (i.e. the top guys in the world) they wouldn't agree on many things either and this as must be taken into consideration by everyone. Training is very individual and there is much we still don't know so as you say there is no absolute right or wrong.
Agreed.
Well you've heard the saying that if you brought 10 experts into one room and 10 students into another - the students would fight on everything and the experts would agree on all!
QuoteNo. This is where we disagree.
You are of the opinion, correct me if I'm wrong, we need to complete stages before we move to another - this is in my opinion outdated, not correct nor the BEST approach.
We can develop physical attributes simultaneously and to a far greater degree than you suggest. The human body doesn't work in stages or in blocks, it is alot more malable than that and provding there is some logic and repsect for it, strength, power etc can be developed more or less simultaneously.
JM I agree that the body doesn't necessarily work in blocks or stages, any form of training will lead to adaptations in various spheres but I believe that the safest way is to look at it in terms of stages. And I certainly believe this to be the case for amateurs because they may have so many weaknesses that to do it the way you suggest will put them at risk of injury. I think at this stage we agree on more than we disagree but there isn't any program that ticks all the boxes so for any lads looking for advice, my advice would be to question everything and listen to your own body.
What about these supplements that are recommended. I know of a few county teams that are on "legal" supplements. What would any of you recommended
Reminds me of a great one from the Legend Scullion when taking us a few years back. We started taining in November for the following season and he was giving us a few lifestyle tips like drinking "Orange Mi Wadi with a pinch of salt" and then he went on
"I dunno if any of yis are on it or been on it before and if it's been any use til youse but I've heard great things about this Creatine and youse should see Mickey (The Phamacist on the panel) about getting yourselves setup if you want til. Eamon Burns was with the County for a whole he could likely tell you about it!"
Eamon replies "You are on it too Scullion!"
"Was I? Well f**k it didn't do me any harm so go on ahead lads!"
Quote from: tieroan on January 14, 2009, 02:40:46 PM
What about these supplements that are recommended. I know of a few county teams that are on "legal" supplements. What would any of you recommended
- A large proportion of supplements are 'tainted' - if you're a county player you don't want to be another Aidan O'Mahoney (not in terms of guilty or not - but simply you don't want the hassle of trying to prove you're not)
- As a county player you do need to make sure what you are using comes from a very well recognised company that tests it's products.
- Most tainted supplements are not purposely tainted - they are just made by companies in factories that don't wash down their lines properly/fully and cross contamination occurrs.
- Many so called 'experts' reguritate and simply 'see-monkey do-monkey' when it comes to supplements and don't look for proof
- There is quite little peer-reviewed quality reserach to support many/most sport supplements
- There is some proof that after hard training such as weights using a protein/carbohydrate mixture may help recovery and performance
- Taking it after all sessions can increase fat gain since they are usually high in calorie and sugar content
- Creatine (just since it was mentioned above) is only needed at 3 grams post work, no loading phase is needed and is usually included anyway in most post training products
- Best benefits will be made from spending time concentrating on correcting diet and working on healthy food habits
- The problem with most other supplements is that no doctor is doing any testing - e.g. blood testing on them to see if they are having a positive or negative effect - it's a gamble
- Even the good old multi vitamin isn't proven beyond doubt
The only other supplements worth considering or that have any proof associated with them are ...
- Fish Oil - 3 to 6 grams per day at night - Good for general health and inflammation
- Glucosamine & Chrondrition - to protect joints and longer term health
In my opinion ...
Some young non-well known county player from a weaker county will innocently fail a test in the next 3 years by either
- using a product such as a magic fat-loss supplement from a non-compliant company
OR
- by using a non cleared cough mixture
.... and will be made a very strict example of. I sincerely hope not, but I see this as happening - Aidan O'Mahony is just a warning in my humble experience.
Quote from: JMohan on January 14, 2009, 07:52:40 PM
The only other supplements worth considering or that have any proof associated with them are ...
- Fish Oil - 3 to 6 grams per day at night - Good for general health and inflammation
- Glucosamine & Chrondrition - to protect joints and longer term health
In my opinion ...
Some young non-well known county player from a weaker county will innocently fail a test in the next 3 years by either
- using a product such as a magic fat-loss supplement from a non-compliant company
OR
- by using a non cleared cough mixture
.... and will be made a very strict example of. I sincerely hope not, but I see this as happening - Aidan O'Mahony is just a warning in my humble experience.
IMO there isnt actually enough information for players as to what supplements are safe and what is not safe.
I used to take Whey Protein a few years ago because I needed the extra protein in my diet because of gym work and training.
I find I dont need it anymore as I dont get as sore.
But I found out recently that products such as "No-Explode" and "Nitro Bolan" have been taken off the Irish shelves. Now a few years ago if you wanted to you could have easily mad the mistake and got these from any health food or health supplement shop. I dont know what in them, but the nutritionist in the shop told me this week that they were taken off the shelves.
I had a link before to a GAA handbook that described what was banned.
I cant understand anyone wanting to take creatine to help with GAA performance, it fills muscles full of water, makes you bigger and heavier and hence slower which is if opposite effect you may want.
Lads on another slightly different note, I know hydration is a major part for a training regime. I know there are certain drinks that are better for you with regards to hydration such as the isotonic drinks etc. Now I was wondering, is an isotonic drink that much of an improvement on water?
Now as a big fan of me cups o tae, I was told years ago that they could have a negative effect on hydration due to caffeine in the tea. Now I know that while it wouldn't be as good as pure water would it have an actual negative effect?
Have a look at this about hydration.
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/hydrationandfluid/a/ProperHydration.htm
As for the caffeine thing well I was always led to believe that it was a diuretic and made you lose more water than you were gaining much like alcohol and that drinking caffeine would cause you to become dehydrated but apparently through recent study this is not the case although most articles say to drink it in moderation.
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2009, 12:22:13 PM
Lads on another slightly different note, I know hydration is a major part for a training regime. I know there are certain drinks that are better for you with regards to hydration such as the isotonic drinks etc. Now I was wondering, is an isotonic drink that much of an improvement on water?
Now as a big fan of me cups o tae, I was told years ago that they could have a negative effect on hydration due to caffeine in the tea. Now I know that while it wouldn't be as good as pure water would it have an actual negative effect?
Water is fine for GAA type activities, you don't need isotonic drinks. Drink plenty of water on a regular basis but in our climate and considering the duration of a football match, dehydration shouldn't impact too much on a player.
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2009, 12:22:13 PM
Lads on another slightly different note, I know hydration is a major part for a training regime. I know there are certain drinks that are better for you with regards to hydration such as the isotonic drinks etc. Now I was wondering, is an isotonic drink that much of an improvement on water?
Now as a big fan of me cups o tae, I was told years ago that they could have a negative effect on hydration due to caffeine in the tea. Now I know that while it wouldn't be as good as pure water would it have an actual negative effect?
We spoke to a dietitian that said the if you mix orange juice or fruit juce with water you get the same hydration effect as isotonic drinks.
Im not sure how true that is. But the isotonic drinks contain more carbs with I suppose provides more energy.
I also hear that a pint of water with a pinch of salt is good to re-hydrate and replace lost salts after training.
Tea and Coffee have caffeine which is a diuretic and will make you more dehydrated and in effect you will pass more liquid than you consume. Also tea promotes anxiety in some people.
However, I know of people who are fond of the Red Bull type drinks before rugby matches or GAA training/matches. There is also supplements out there loaded with caffeine for energy. I have never tried any of that stuff so I cant offer an opinion but I dont think I would take red-bull before training. Its better suited to vodka. ;) :D
lads michael phelps has 3 cups of coffee for breakfast. I don't buy this idea one cup of coffee a day is going to make a major impact on hydration. I wouldn't drink one directly before a match or training , but having one the the same day will have little or no impact on your performance. that i can guarantee.
I don't see an issue with whey protein or ordinary protein. I found creatine a complete waste of time. Simply doesn't work for everyone's metabolism. In the name of god don't go buying anything on the internet or anything in a health shop that looks iffy.
Vast amounts of these products are spiked. Most county teams have any product tested in a laboratory, they simply have to in the current climate.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 15, 2009, 03:54:40 PM
lads michael phelps has 3 cups of coffee for breakfast. I don't buy this idea one cup of coffee a day is going to make a major impact on hydration. I wouldn't drink one directly before a match or training , but having one the the same day will have little or no impact on your performance. that i can guarantee.
I would agree there. Im not really used to drinking coffee but I have had the odd cup in the mornings if I was feeling tired or was having problems concentrating. Dont think it particularly dehydrates you if you continue drinking water during the day.
Speaking of Phelps, I was thinking about his diet too today, and its crazy. I think most GAA footballers/hurlers watch what they eat and try and eat healthy. I know of footballers who dont eat red meat. I know of footballers who boil their sausages. But other athletes seem to eat what they like for energy which is a contradiction to what we are told.
I for one hardly ever eat anything fried and try to eat as healthy as possible, even cutting down on red meat. If training hard, the most I manage is two dinners in a day. However a guy at work with us competes in Iron Man Triathlons and he eats a crazy amounts of food. He does 2 runs a week, both 11k. He cycles 15k and swims 2k a week. I asked him about energy levels, which he said is mostly psychological but what he had today (so far) is unreal; On his rest day....
A full Irish breakfast (yes a full big fry-up), 4 slices of white toast, 1 bowl of cornflakes, 2 bowls of porridge, orange Juice, 2 bananas. He said he will have a full dinner for lunch, and a full dinner this evening and maybe a sandwich or two later. On training days he also takes energy drinks and even more food.
All that food, especially the type of food goes against every impulse of healthy eating I have.
Quote
The Michael Phelps Diet....
Coming in at a mere 12,000 calories ( Yes, Twelve Thousand )
Breakfast: Three fried-egg sandwiches loaded with cheese, lettuce, tomatoes, fried onions and mayonnaise. Two cups of coffee. One five-egg omelet. One bowl of grits. Three slices of French toast topped with powdered sugar. Three chocolate-chip pancakes.
Lunch: One pound of enriched pasta. Two large ham and cheese sandwiches with mayo on white bread. Energy drinks packing 1,000 calories.
Dinner: One pound of pasta. An entire pizza. More energy drinks.
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 11:09:37 AM
Quote from: JMohan on January 14, 2009, 07:52:40 PM
The only other supplements worth considering or that have any proof associated with them are ...
- Fish Oil - 3 to 6 grams per day at night - Good for general health and inflammation
- Glucosamine & Chrondrition - to protect joints and longer term health
In my opinion ...
Some young non-well known county player from a weaker county will innocently fail a test in the next 3 years by either
- using a product such as a magic fat-loss supplement from a non-compliant company
OR
- by using a non cleared cough mixture
.... and will be made a very strict example of. I sincerely hope not, but I see this as happening - Aidan O'Mahony is just a warning in my humble experience.
IMO there isnt actually enough information for players as to what supplements are safe and what is not safe.
Agree completely - which is then why nut jobs jump in on the bandwagon promoting and selling snake oil.
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 11:09:37 AM
I used to take Whey Protein a few years ago because I needed the extra protein in my diet because of gym work and training.
Good common sense
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 11:09:37 AM
I find I dont need it anymore as I dont get as sore.
I wish everyone used as much cop-on
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 11:09:37 AM
But I found out recently that products such as "No-Explode" and "Nitro Bolan" have been taken off the Irish shelves. Now a few years ago if you wanted to you could have easily mad the mistake and got these from any health food or health supplement shop. I dont know what in them, but the nutritionist in the shop told me this week that they were taken off the shelves.
Simply because of the things I suggested above - if they are not made by reputable companies who test - why would you take the chance.
That's apart from the fact that you don't know if they do any good!
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 11:09:37 AM
I had a link before to a GAA handbook that described what was banned.
I cant understand anyone wanting to take creatine to help with GAA performance, it fills muscles full of water, makes you bigger and heavier and hence slower which is if opposite effect you may want.
Well, there is some benefits - strength increase being one, cellular hydration another - but the bottom line is that it's not the most important thing to worry about in preparing a player!
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2009, 12:22:13 PM
Lads on another slightly different note, I know hydration is a major part for a training regime. I know there are certain drinks that are better for you with regards to hydration such as the isotonic drinks etc. Now I was wondering, is an isotonic drink that much of an improvement on water?
Now as a big fan of me cups o tae, I was told years ago that they could have a negative effect on hydration due to caffeine in the tea. Now I know that while it wouldn't be as good as pure water would it have an actual negative effect?
The first rule of training is - if a player is happy doing something be VERY careful about making a change.
In his old book Joe Lennon even wrote about a fellow player who'd swim the day before a game - crazy in most peoples eyes - but who knows the effect on him if he didn't!
With coffee and tea the diuretic effect is minimal really for a 70 min game. There may be a more negative effect (phelgm) with some players from the milk.
The caffiene benefits may outway it - but in reality it's marginal really.
Water is fine, maybe a small mix of sugar in water with possibly some sodium helps - but to be honest Gataroade and Lucozade sport etc are just sugar drinks and not as beneficial as the hype suggests.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 15, 2009, 03:54:40 PM
lads michael phelps has 3 cups of coffee for breakfast. I don't buy this idea one cup of coffee a day is going to make a major impact on hydration.
Agreed
Quote from: INDIANA on January 15, 2009, 03:54:40 PMI wouldn't drink one directly before a match or training , but having one the the same day will have little or no impact on your performance. that i can guarantee.
I actually would be of the opposite opinion
Quote from: INDIANA on January 15, 2009, 03:54:40 PMI don't see an issue with whey protein or ordinary protein. I found creatine a complete waste of time. Simply doesn't work for everyone's metabolism. In the name of god don't go buying anything on the internet or anything in a health shop that looks iffy.
Agreed
Quote from: INDIANA on January 15, 2009, 03:54:40 PMVast amounts of these products are spiked. Most county teams have any product tested in a laboratory, they simply have to in the current climate.
Well they should - but I doubt many even know that - I know some don't.
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 04:39:55 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 15, 2009, 03:54:40 PM
lads michael phelps has 3 cups of coffee for breakfast. I don't buy this idea one cup of coffee a day is going to make a major impact on hydration. I wouldn't drink one directly before a match or training , but having one the the same day will have little or no impact on your performance. that i can guarantee.
I would agree there. Im not really used to drinking coffee but I have had the odd cup in the mornings if I was feeling tired or was having problems concentrating. Dont think it particularly dehydrates you if you continue drinking water during the day.
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 04:39:55 PMSpeaking of Phelps, I was thinking about his diet too today, and its crazy.
Believe half of what you hear and read
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 04:39:55 PMI think most GAA footballers/hurlers watch what they eat and try and eat healthy. I know of footballers who dont eat red meat. I know of footballers who boil their sausages. But other athletes seem to eat what they like for energy which is a contradiction to what we are told.
Genetics are one major factor
Nutrition is overrated in some athletes
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 04:39:55 PMI for one hardly ever eat anything fried and try to eat as healthy as possible, even cutting down on red meat. If training hard, the most I manage is two dinners in a day. However a guy at work with us competes in Iron Man Triathlons and he eats a crazy amounts of food. He does 2 runs a week, both 11k. He cycles 15k and swims 2k a week. I asked him about energy levels, which he said is mostly psychological but what he had today (so far) is unreal; On his rest day....
A full Irish breakfast (yes a full big fry-up), 4 slices of white toast, 1 bowl of cornflakes, 2 bowls of porridge, orange Juice, 2 bananas. He said he will have a full dinner for lunch, and a full dinner this evening and maybe a sandwich or two later. On training days he also takes energy drinks and even more food.
All that food, especially the type of food goes against every impulse of healthy eating I have.
Yes - BUT the difference is calories in vs calories out
And regardless of what some might say you can't change this basic law of physics/biology
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 04:39:55 PM
Quote
The Michael Phelps Diet....
Coming in at a mere 12,000 calories ( Yes, Twelve Thousand )
Breakfast: Three fried-egg sandwiches loaded with cheese, lettuce, tomatoes, fried onions and mayonnaise. Two cups of coffee. One five-egg omelet. One bowl of grits. Three slices of French toast topped with powdered sugar. Three chocolate-chip pancakes.
Lunch: One pound of enriched pasta. Two large ham and cheese sandwiches with mayo on white bread. Energy drinks packing 1,000 calories.
Dinner: One pound of pasta. An entire pizza. More energy drinks.
Remember as well - because it's a primarily endurance activity - the training - there is a need (and demand by the mind) for huge volumes of carbs
Quote from: Zulu on January 15, 2009, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2009, 12:22:13 PM
Lads on another slightly different note, I know hydration is a major part for a training regime. I know there are certain drinks that are better for you with regards to hydration such as the isotonic drinks etc. Now I was wondering, is an isotonic drink that much of an improvement on water?
Now as a big fan of me cups o tae, I was told years ago that they could have a negative effect on hydration due to caffeine in the tea. Now I know that while it wouldn't be as good as pure water would it have an actual negative effect?
Water is fine for GAA type activities, you don't need isotonic drinks. Drink plenty of water on a regular basis but in our climate and considering the duration of a football match, dehydration shouldn't impact too much on a player.
A few very important points there
1. MOST hydration research is done on athletes in the states ... we don't get near the same heat
2. Most research is on endurance athletes running for longer
The craziest thing was the 'Lucozade sports keeps you going for 33% longer' ....
... Read the study - it was an endurance runner they tested - little relevance to sports like GAA!!!
Sales pitch
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 12:50:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2009, 12:22:13 PM
Lads on another slightly different note, I know hydration is a major part for a training regime. I know there are certain drinks that are better for you with regards to hydration such as the isotonic drinks etc. Now I was wondering, is an isotonic drink that much of an improvement on water?
Now as a big fan of me cups o tae, I was told years ago that they could have a negative effect on hydration due to caffeine in the tea. Now I know that while it wouldn't be as good as pure water would it have an actual negative effect?
We spoke to a dietitian that said the if you mix orange juice or fruit juce with water you get the same hydration effect as isotonic drinks.
True
And Cheaper
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 12:50:08 PMIm not sure how true that is. But the isotonic drinks contain more carbs with I suppose provides more energy.
Yeh, some protein might be helpful, but it's fine
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 12:50:08 PMI also hear that a pint of water with a pinch of salt is good to re-hydrate and replace lost salts after training.
Yes, sodium, plus has the added benefit of promoting and encouraging you to drink more
(The same reasons Ronald puts so much salt on his food in McDonalds - makes you drink more Coke)
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 12:50:08 PMTea and Coffee have caffeine which is a diuretic and will make you more dehydrated and in effect you will pass more liquid than you consume. Also tea promotes anxiety in some people.
The dehydration is a bit overplayed
Tea generally has the opposite effect in fact - but of course too many can do that
Coffee certainly can - well caffiene - but in high doseages
AND - it's VERY individual - some people have completely opposite reactions to coffee and tea.
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 15, 2009, 12:50:08 PMHowever, I know of people who are fond of the Red Bull type drinks before rugby matches or GAA training/matches. There is also supplements out there loaded with caffeine for energy. I have never tried any of that stuff so I cant offer an opinion but I dont think I would take red-bull before training. Its better suited to vodka. ;) :D
Again
Caffiene is individual
If you are going to use it - use the no sugar one
Quote from: Zulu on January 15, 2009, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2009, 12:22:13 PM
Lads on another slightly different note, I know hydration is a major part for a training regime. I know there are certain drinks that are better for you with regards to hydration such as the isotonic drinks etc. Now I was wondering, is an isotonic drink that much of an improvement on water?
Now as a big fan of me cups o tae, I was told years ago that they could have a negative effect on hydration due to caffeine in the tea. Now I know that while it wouldn't be as good as pure water would it have an actual negative effect?
Water is fine for GAA type activities, you don't need isotonic drinks. Drink plenty of water on a regular basis but in our climate and considering the duration of a football match, dehydration shouldn't impact too much on a player.
True - most/many hydration studies were done ...
- by Gatorade/Lucozade
- in hot countries
- in endurance sports
- for long periods of testing
However a small amount of sugar/glucose is fine and may have a small effect
Certainly not make you go 33% longer though!
Quote from: screenexile on January 15, 2009, 12:38:20 PM
Have a look at this about hydration.
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/hydrationandfluid/a/ProperHydration.htm
As for the caffeine thing well I was always led to believe that it was a diuretic and made you lose more water than you were gaining much like alcohol and that drinking caffeine would cause you to become dehydrated but apparently through recent study this is not the case although most articles say to drink it in moderation.
Unless you get Starbucks on tap you'll be fine
Another controversial statement coming up ... ;D
The effect of hydration is over played in sport - there is a greater danger of someone over hydrating than under-hydratingI believe there have been more records of people dying from over hydration than dehydration.
Also - the whole weight thing is a bit issue - I'd rather be a little lighter with no fall in performance than heavier....
I'd agree that the hydration issue is massively overstated in terms of field sports in temperate climates.
The sports drinks manufacturers fund much of the research in this area so people need to read between the lines.
If a study says something improved someones performance take a very close look at the exercise protocol used.
I think the days of teams running around race tracks is nearly gone!
I know Kilkenny & Dublin used to do this!
Anyone ever tried those caffine kicks??? A mate in work who plays rugby at a relatively high level uses them before every training session or match and he swears by them....
I tried them twice and to be honest i did feel they had an impact, i was flyn through the whole training and felt great however when i got home i got cramp and then couldnt sleep for ages that nite.... the negatives definetly outweighed the positives so they werent for me... but he swears by them and now there is another few lads i know who think there magic!
Quote from: JMohan on January 15, 2009, 09:26:33 PM
The effect of hydration is over played in sport - there is a greater danger of someone over hydrating than under-hydrating
I believe there have been more records of people dying from over hydration than dehydration.
How much is over hydrating?
Id say I drink about 7 pints of water a day at work alone, and maybe 2-3 more in the evening. Thats on days im not training... Sometimes I think im addicted to the water but it could be the air conditioning in the office. When I first started here they actually had to remove the Tipperary water fountain and get in a filtered system because I was drinking so much! At work they make a joke of it and say they budgeted for electricity... budgeted for basic kitchen supplies... but didnt budget for the amount of water I would drink... :D
Is it possible to drink too much water?
There is that old wives tale suggesting that you are flushing out nutrients by drinking too much water. ???
I dont know if that is possible though....
I wouldn't worry about over hydrating, it's not a serious concern for most people and what your drinking wouldn't affect your sporting performance.
Quote from: Hank Everlast on January 16, 2009, 08:45:47 AM
Anyone ever tried those caffine kicks??? A mate in work who plays rugby at a relatively high level uses them before every training session or match and he swears by them....
I tried them twice and to be honest i did feel they had an impact, i was flyn through the whole training and felt great however when i got home i got cramp and then couldnt sleep for ages that nite.... the negatives definetly outweighed the positives so they werent for me... but he swears by them and now there is another few lads i know who think there magic!
Exactly - look at the long versus short term effects - especially over a campaign/season/match
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 16, 2009, 10:03:10 AM
Quote from: JMohan on January 15, 2009, 09:26:33 PM
The effect of hydration is over played in sport - there is a greater danger of someone over hydrating than under-hydrating
I believe there have been more records of people dying from over hydration than dehydration.
How much is over hydrating?
Id say I drink about 7 pints of water a day at work alone, and maybe 2-3 more in the evening. Thats on days im not training... Sometimes I think im addicted to the water but it could be the air conditioning in the office. When I first started here they actually had to remove the Tipperary water fountain and get in a filtered system because I was drinking so much! At work they make a joke of it and say they budgeted for electricity... budgeted for basic kitchen supplies... but didnt budget for the amount of water I would drink... :D
Is it possible to drink too much water?
There is that old wives tale suggesting that you are flushing out nutrients by drinking too much water. ???
I dont know if that is possible though....
Like I said the chances are slim - but possible.
If you're spending more time holding your piece or a water bottle than working then you're drinking too much.
Just enjoy your water.
You can test for it - but it's not fool proof.
Someone spoke about caffiene as a diuretic - but drinking water is one of the most diuretic things you can do also!!!
The problem of flushing nutrients is very real and also can cause cramping due to re-distribution and disposal of nutrients.
Water is good for you etc - but overrated.
Its like the common misconception that you lose most body heat through your head - WRONG. its lost equally from your whole body
the experiments that concluded the above statement were conducted by the Russians during the 1940s and 1950s and have been discarded. The tests were miscued
So don't believe anything a sports drink company says! sure even kellogs claim coco pops are full of calcium - course they are when you add milk!!
couple of lads in my club definetely over hydrating before games,
Constantly Pissing beside the fence maybe 2 or 3 times during the warm-up. :D
thought i'd bump this thread for the time of year agian.
Anyone got a good preseason training programme (weights & cardio) for gaelic footballl?
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 25, 2009, 11:59:46 AM
thought i'd bump this thread for the time of year agian.
Anyone got a good preseason training programme (weights & cardio) for gaelic footballl?
Not at all trying to be smart, but if I were you I would engage with your gym instructor.
When paying membership in a gym you might as well avail of their expertise.
Tell them what you want to train for, be it size, strength or power (for field sports/Gaelic games) and they would be able to help.
In fact, if their worth their salt, insist on getting a functional screening & fitness testing, including body fat index, and testing strength etc so they can better design a program.
I know some people feel shy or are afraid to approach a gym instructor, but you shouldn't.
some good stuff on here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq5TVy3rw4E&feature=related ...... You and another teammate could do this sorta stuff. I found it on the Armagh gaa site... V good site for coaches.
Quote from: JMohan on January 16, 2009, 02:20:45 PM
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 16, 2009, 10:03:10 AM
Quote from: JMohan on January 15, 2009, 09:26:33 PM
The effect of hydration is over played in sport - there is a greater danger of someone over hydrating than under-hydrating
I believe there have been more records of people dying from over hydration than dehydration.
How much is over hydrating?
Id say I drink about 7 pints of water a day at work alone, and maybe 2-3 more in the evening. Thats on days im not training... Sometimes I think im addicted to the water but it could be the air conditioning in the office. When I first started here they actually had to remove the Tipperary water fountain and get in a filtered system because I was drinking so much! At work they make a joke of it and say they budgeted for electricity... budgeted for basic kitchen supplies... but didnt budget for the amount of water I would drink... :D
Is it possible to drink too much water?
There is that old wives tale suggesting that you are flushing out nutrients by drinking too much water. ???
I dont know if that is possible though....
Like I said the chances are slim - but possible.
If you're spending more time holding your piece or a water bottle than working then you're drinking too much.
Just enjoy your water.
You can test for it - but it's not fool proof.
Someone spoke about caffiene as a diuretic - but drinking water is one of the most diuretic things you can do also!!!
The problem of flushing nutrients is very real and also can cause cramping due to re-distribution and disposal of nutrients.
Water is good for you etc - but overrated.
cant rem where how or why - but recall someone saying that drinking 21 litres of water could have life threatening problems
maybe I was watvhing too much csi or some other carp !!
In a temperate climate 2 and a half litres- 3 litres a day is plenty for an IC player in my opinion. Anymore than that is excessive and not needed. For most people 2 litres a day is fine and its healthy to drink a decent amount of water a day. But when I read stories of lads drinking 8 pints of water a day i get worried.
PS a litre= 1.8 pints
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 16, 2009, 10:03:10 AM
There is that old wives tale suggesting that you are flushing out nutrients by drinking too much water. ???
I dont know if that is possible though....
It's not an old wives tale. Drinking too much water can dilute the sodium too much causing hyponatremia. However you'd need to drink treble what you're currently drinking to be at risk, or drink the 7 pints in a short space of time.
Quote from: blanketattack on December 07, 2009, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 16, 2009, 10:03:10 AM
There is that old wives tale suggesting that you are flushing out nutrients by drinking too much water. ???
I dont know if that is possible though....
It's not an old wives tale. Drinking too much water can dilute the sodium too much causing hyponatremia. However you'd need to drink treble what you're currently drinking to be at risk, or drink the 7 pints in a short space of time.
Milder effects can also impact on performance
Right lads I had joined a gym over here in Liverpool and they give ya a free personal training session every three months. But I had mine last nite. And he raised a few points that I'd like to get a bit of information on.
Firstly my prime target when i joined in Jan was weight loss after a rather indulgent Christmas!! So I was usually trying to do 30 mins running first of in the gym. Wasn't running anything great usuall had 6k done in 29 mins or so. But this guy maintains that even for weight loss interval training is still the best option. He reckons doing a 15min run and bumping it up to 16-16.5k for a minute, three times in the 15 will be better for you than the 30min slog. I know that interval training is the best for sport training but is he right that it'll have the same effect on weight loss?
Next came the weights. I would have been a big fan of the machine weights, mostly because their easy to use and I feel more confident with them. again he rubbished this saying that for football training free weights were much better as you could use the whole body rather than isolated muscles. So he gave me a few different things like squats with dumbells, Press-ups with different hand positions, couple of different lifts with the bar bells etc. and he says there's no point doing the machines unless I was looking to bulk up/ show of certain muscles.
Next he moved on to the diet. I'd eat healthy enough as I work from home so have plenty of time to cook a decent feed rather than take aways or easy cook meals. But he's taken me of cereal in the mornings and telling me to eat two eggs with one slice of brown toast as the only major change. I quizzed him on how we used to be told not to eat too many eggs but he said that's rubbish and that I shouldn't worry about eating too many eggs, which kinda surprised me.
So just to see what some of you guys here who are in to all this thinks of this advise? Is he right enough about everything or should I be taking it with a pinch of salt?
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 10, 2010, 10:19:11 AM
Right lads I had joined a gym over here in Liverpool and they give ya a free personal training session every three months. But I had mine last nite. And he raised a few points that I'd like to get a bit of information on.
Firstly my prime target when i joined in Jan was weight loss after a rather indulgent Christmas!! So I was usually trying to do 30 mins running first of in the gym. Wasn't running anything great usuall had 6k done in 29 mins or so. But this guy maintains that even for weight loss interval training is still the best option. He reckons doing a 15min run and bumping it up to 16-16.5k for a minute, three times in the 15 will be better for you than the 30min slog. I know that interval training is the best for sport training but is he right that it'll have the same effect on weight loss?
Next came the weights. I would have been a big fan of the machine weights, mostly because their easy to use and I feel more confident with them. again he rubbished this saying that for football training free weights were much better as you could use the whole body rather than isolated muscles. So he gave me a few different things like squats with dumbells, Press-ups with different hand positions, couple of different lifts with the bar bells etc. and he says there's no point doing the machines unless I was looking to bulk up/ show of certain muscles.
Next he moved on to the diet. I'd eat healthy enough as I work from home so have plenty of time to cook a decent feed rather than take aways or easy cook meals. But he's taken me of cereal in the mornings and telling me to eat two eggs with one slice of brown toast as the only major change. I quizzed him on how we used to be told not to eat too many eggs but he said that's rubbish and that I shouldn't worry about eating too many eggs, which kinda surprised me.
So just to see what some of you guys here who are in to all this thinks of this advise? Is he right enough about everything or should I be taking it with a pinch of salt?
I would thoroughly agree with everything he said.
Dont worry about the eggs as you will burn off the cholesterol when your training. And I think egg whites contain 84% protein which is a good source to help build and repair muscle.
So ya reckon two a day is grand. Have to say I'd be happy enough with that as I'd far rather a poached egg than an auld bowl of cereal any day of the week.
He sounds spot on, from what I've heard doing various training regimes.
As regards the eggs - I'm glad to hear him say that, cos I'm taking about 6 a day. They're such a handy, good meal: poach three for breakfast, then three in the evening before gym. We're doing a routine at the min, and we've been told to get plenty of calories down us!
Quote from: haranguerer on February 10, 2010, 01:18:42 PM
He sounds spot on, from what I've heard doing various training regimes.
As regards the eggs - I'm glad to hear him say that, cos I'm taking about 6 a day. They're such a handy, good meal: poach three for breakfast, then three in the evening before gym. We're doing a routine at the min, and we've been told to get plenty of calories down us!
Be careful, 6 a day, seven days a week is excessive.You need to be working very hard both aerobically and anaerobically to burn off all the cholesterol of 42 egg yokes in a week. And there isnt even that many calories in an egg. About 70-80 I think.
A very healthy alternative is "Heart Healthy" scrambled eggs or omletes where you make them from egg whites alone without yokes or maybe one yoke and three egg whites.
And dont add salt and butter or its pointless.
The link between dietary cholesterol and blood cholesterol is overstated.
Eggs have an undeserved bad rep.
Had the first outdoor training there on sunday and im still hurting from it >:(. Thats what i get for doing nothing for 3 months :-\
You can eat loads of eggs, just don't eat the yolk everytime, i sometimes make scrambled end with 4 eggs, only use one yolk though. Its the part with the colestrol
Don't worry about the cholesterol in the eggs.
Quote from: Jinxy on February 10, 2010, 08:13:23 PM
Don't worry about the cholesterol in the eggs.
Your encouraging 6 eggs a day, which is 42 a week?
ffs...
What? ???
None of my comments have been addressed to haranguer.
I'm talking about the link between eggs, dietary cholesterol and serum/blood cholesterol.
any of your clubs looking for any pre-season games in the next few weeks perhaps midweek or on a sunday?
senior derry club looking for a few games. pm me if interested!
Just seen this now Abbeysider, I'll take it on-board. Never really passed much remarks on my diet - part from obviously avoiding chips, pizzas etc. It seems that while there is some debate as to how bad eggs are for you, my intake might be excessive even if they're not as bad as originally believed.
Pity, cos they're great :-\
Quote from: haranguerer on February 22, 2010, 01:45:48 PM
Just seen this now Abbeysider, I'll take it on-board. Never really passed much remarks on my diet - part from obviously avoiding chips, pizzas etc. It seems that while there is some debate as to how bad eggs are for you, my intake might be excessive even if they're not as bad as originally believed.
Pity, cos they're great :-\
If you use mostly egg whites in scrambled eggs and omelettes and you will be fine as its the white of the egg that contains the protein and is low in fat.
Eggs may not be bad for you, but in excessive amounts (and yolks) it wouldnt be great.
(http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cholesterol/HQ00608)
(posting a link but im sure you could find counter arguments)