Pre season training regimes

[BallyhaiseMan]

Boojangles has played at a high level Zulu, im sure he has 
we done no weights with Gerry O Rourke at all,only bodyweight exercises.
Id say Mickey will have us in the gym a good bit.

Olympic lifting,Clean,C and Jerk and Snatch would be outstanding for explosive movement,Jumping and acceleration,
The only problem is,Very few GAA players have the flexibility in their legs and lowerback to do them right as they require, you to get into a ATG (ass to ground)squat position.
I work with an American lad Ex College Football player,and outstanding powerlifter,Learned alot from him about it.

[JMohan]

I hate having to do this, but most of your comments Zulu appear to have been just criticisms for the sake of it and for the benefit of someone who might believe them I better correct them.

You CAN lift weights all season long - doesn't mean you are ready to - It might be ok for a professional AFL/Rugby player not some GAA guy.

That is partly true, anyone can lift weights 12 months a year, even beginners the problem is it might take you 2-3 years before you are ready to do Olympic type lifts.

Who was talking about Olympic lifts?
The quoute you took was out of context - We're talking about lifting all season long there.

You need to build up to it, and many players do lift - some (top players) even up 2 days before a game - and some lift heavy - the key is to lift heavy, very fast and only one or two reps.

As for olympic lifts - cop on. If any county team is doing Olympic Lifting they are retarded and probably doing them wrong. They are VERY dangerous to do if not trained properly. McGurn said he'd never teach an olympic lift to a GAA player - they don't need it.

That is a complete contradiction, all olympic style lifting is is rapidly lifting heavy weight. They have to taught properly but the should play an important role any footballers weights program.

Certainly not a contradiction. You seem to think that Olympic lifts are the only lifts or only exercises that can be done explosively.
I'll repeat myself - Olympic Lifts are great. For Gaelic Footballers they are very good, but not at all necessary, more importantly they take a long time to master and as part of a bigger picture of conditioning they may have a place - but that's up to the coach after he looks at the complete program.

Hypertrophy overrated and is not very useful in sport. Size is useful for the gym but not much else. What he said was most people forget size (even if strength) still equals more weight to be carried around.

I disagree would the Aussie Rules lads be too big to play football?

Again - you're looking at the superficial, what appears to be the case and what you see - not what they are doing.
AFL guys are not bulky as in NFL, they may be bigger as a side effect of training - but most AFL/Rugby/Soccer clubs now do not train for hypertrophy/size.
They train for strength, endurance and power and obvisouly size and muscle growth is a side effect - not to mention on average they are taller.

Aerobic TRAINING is overrated - Ie. distance running is not a good idea, as it slows players by converting fast to slow twitch fibres but it can be maintained through short games and proper games.

Complete and utter nonsense, there is still some debate about the extent that fibers can change type but slow long distance running will probably change Type 2 to Type 1 fibers and sprint type training will probably do the opposite. However running 3 - 6 miles (not that these are long runs anyway) 3 times a week for 6 weeks will not effect your fiber profile and even if it did the subsequent interval and short sprint work that you under go later in the season will change them back. Besides your fiber type is largely genetically determined and you'll never change from one to the other regardless of training so don't get bogged down in it.

I'm afraid you're getting confused here and rushing to criticise for the sake of it.... take a deep breath!
Numerous studies have shown that endurance work lowers power and force production. Is this because of fibre conversion? Yes, partly but it's also other factors. The bottom line is that endurance work will make you slower. Also switching fibre types isn't a slip of a button, it's a long term thing. You certainly have a genetic make up, but there is a great training factor - this is why people train at all. Donkeys will always be Donkeys - but you can make them far faster Donkeys.
Also true Interval work is not speed nor power work - by it's very nature (in the team sport context) so it will not act as a convert back to fast twitch.
Again to come back to the basic point - Endurance work lowers power and force production i.e. speed .... so as a general rule be very careful with endurance work.

And in fact on a side note ... Strength training improves aerobic ability - but I suspect that will be a stretch too far for you!
1991, University of Maryland - strength training improved cycling endurance (independent of changes in oxygen consumption)

All excellent stuff lads,much appreciated.Il try to take what I can out of all your advice.Zulu you wouldnt mind expanding on the bold bit,about doing core work standing up.I do have problems with my groins which can effect me doing core work lying down.

Think balance work Boojangles, for example doing bicep curles or squats on one leg or doing weights on wobble boards, your core has to work extremely hard to keep you upright - which is what they actually are for. As others have said planks (and the many variations are excellent) as are medicine balls and swiss balls ( though some are suggesting these are over rated now).

We're discusing power and speed here and for that purpose training on wobble boards or unstable surfaces for athletes in contact sports (apart from occassional rehab for very specific issues) was more or less a fad and has now been dismissed as pretty much a gimmic for team contact sports or athletes looking to increase power output.

So this doesn't go on all week -
Instability reduces power output, impairs Peak concentric and eccentric power, Concentric force, Concentric velocity, Squat depth - (Drinkwater, Pritchett and Behm 2007 IJSPP)
Squat and dead lift have 50-70% greater trunk activation than performing unstable sidebridge and superman exercises - (Hamlyn and Behm 2007 JSCR)

[JMohan]

Zulu, the olympic lifts he's referring to are the ones Ballyhaise has alluded to. I can't see how a clean and jerk has any relevance for Gaelic Football. But a variation like a hang clean is beneficial for good players. So its more about varaitions than specific Olympic lifts.

I'd agree about the twitch. A guy born with a speed twitch will always be quicker than one who was born without one IF they undergo the same training methods.

In fairness Mc Gurn was interviewed by the All Blacks recently. I'm not saying he's an authority on the subject, but his views probably should be noted to some extent.

McGurn should know - after all he trains professionals
I agree - hang clean maybe - but to be honest clean and jerk isn't worth the hassle or risk.
As for slow and fast twitch ... it's not the actual fibres that are the real issue - it's the total change to a type of training.

[JMohan]

Indiana,
Hang Clean is good,
id also add in the Power Clean as being a terrific lift for GAA Players.

Olympic style lifts for me would be

a. a full clean.
b  Clean and Jerk.
c. Snatch.

all 3 very advanced lifts,Not sure id recommend them to anyone other than a very experienced lifter.

Jaysus Gerry O Rourke never had us doing them 
I would do a fair bit of free weights on my own but I never heard about any of this olympic lifting.Am I missing out? Or are you banned from giving away secrets to the opposition?

In a one word answer - No

Olympic Lifts are useful, but not at all necessary.
Olympic lifts allow and encourage the player to use power explosively, but this can be develop many other ways and far safer too, with no long learning phase.

Remember the Olympic Lifts are a technical lift competed in the Olympic Games, it takes a long while to master them properly. Incorrect use and incorrect training unless from a very qualified Olympic lifting coach is quite dangerous.
I'm sure there's plenty of lads around the country happy to try and do them and figure they can traing people in them .... delusion is wonderful.

The most important thing about Olympic lifting and best way to think about them is this ...
Olympic lifts as a general rule develop power.
But power is only a % of strength.
In other words - you need to be strong first to the get the most benefit from Olympic lifts.
Start with Squats and Dead lifts
Get strong and in time you can move to Olympic lifts
But in truth most intercounty players will never reach the levels requiring Olympic lifts

[JMohan]

Begorra I'm on fire this morning!

[Zulu]

JM I wasn't criticizing for the sake of it, far from it, i simply disagree with some of the points you (or McGurn) have made, I won't go back through everything you've said as we could go back and forth all week about the minutiae of different areas but I will make some points.

1. Endurance work will affect your speed but only if that is all you're doing and you're doing it over a long time. What I'm taking about is early season runs of between 3 and 6 miles these aren't long distances and can be done at pace if you're fit enough. The bottom line is 6 weeks of running 3 times a week for distances of between 3 and 6 miles will not slow you down in any way. That is a physiological fact and even if it wasn't like I said your training for the rest of the year would involve shorter, faster type training which would improve your speed again. And contrary to what you're saying distance running is still a part of many professional team sport training programs. I never employ one paced 'distance' running in any of my sessions but if a player asked me what he could do prior to coming back to training, I'd tell him to do a bit of running to get a good aerobic base.

2. While you're correct, Olympic type lifts aren't the only explosive exercises you can do, they are the best lower body explosive exercises (we're not taking about plyometrics here, just weight lifting) and it is only lower body that GAA players need to really work on. Medicine ball exercises are ideal for upper body explosiveness. And I never said the were necessary, there isn't any single exercise that's essential but they are invaluable and while difficult to learn properly doing them with an experienced partner will remove much of the risk.

3. You are mixing up hypertrophy with NFL size players, all the Irish players who went to Aussie Rules had to bulk up first and this is the mistake many GAA lads make, i.e. the fear that doing weights will make them bulky and cumbersome, this is simply not true. You can bulk up a bit without slowing down and bulking up is a big advantage for footballers, bigger muscles =greater strength and power. The key is to get the balance right and the main problem is most GAa lads are doing body building programs rather than sport specific ones.

And in fact on a side note ... Strength training improves aerobic ability - but I suspect that will be a stretch too far for you!
1991, University of Maryland - strength training improved cycling endurance (independent of changes in oxygen consumption)

JM I'm afraid you fall into the trap of taking a study as gospel, if I had the time or inclination I could find numerous studies that contradict each other in many areas of training. Now I'd have to see the study you refer to above before I could comment on it but I would suspect the strength training they were under going was high rep low weight stuff which might aid muscular endurance but weight training doesn't improve aerobic endurance. You always need to be careful when taking the results from studies as evidence of anything, for example if I did a similar study as the one you refer to and had 10 guys training by cycling and 10 guys training by cycling and weight training and the result was that the 4 most improved cyclists were from the weight/cycling group would that mean that weight training and cycling was better than cycling alone? Maybe, but it could also mean the 4 best athletes happened to be in the weight/cycle group or it could mean that they were slightly less fit and had more room for adaption i.e. it might have nothing to do with the weight training at all.

[BallyhaiseMan]

JMohan
just incase you thought i was,i wasnt offering to attempt to train anyone,im certainly no expert on any of this,
only do Powercleans and less frequently Full Clean.

Tried to do a snatch before,luckily with a light weight,the results were comical.

[BallyhaiseMan]

You Two obviously know your stuff,
But have to back Zulu's point on Endurance,
Our Closest relative sport in terms of similarity would the AFL,
Distance running is still a big part of their off-season and pre-season schedule.
"The Tan" being a good example.
all this talk has got me all excited about going to the gym now.

[JMohan]

JM I wasn't criticizing for the sake of it, far from it, i simply disagree with some of the points you (or McGurn) have made, I won't go back through everything you've said as we could go back and forth all week about the minutiae of different areas but I will make some points.

Fair enough, I'll keep the reponses short then.

1. Endurance work will affect your speed but only if that is all you're doing and you're doing it over a long time. What I'm taking about is early season runs of between 3 and 6 miles these aren't long distances and can be done at pace if you're fit enough. The bottom line is 6 weeks of running 3 times a week for distances of between 3 and 6 miles will not slow you down in any way. That is a physiological fact and even if it wasn't like I said your training for the rest of the year would involve shorter, faster type training which would improve your speed again. And contrary to what you're saying distance running is still a part of many professional team sport training programs. I never employ one paced 'distance' running in any of my sessions but if a player asked me what he could do prior to coming back to training, I'd tell him to do a bit of running to get a good aerobic base.

Distance running is not part of any successful teams training involved in a sport similar to GAA
You will get far more specific and better general conditioing for Gaelic Football with less negative affects by avoiding slow state steady running.
The idea of needing an 'aerobic base' for pre-season is outdated by current successful team practice
You appear to disagree with this and you're entitled to.

2. While you're correct, Olympic type lifts aren't the only explosive exercises you can do, they are the best lower body explosive exercises (we're not taking about plyometrics here, just weight lifting) and it is only lower body that GAA players need to really work on. Medicine ball exercises are ideal for upper body explosiveness. And I never said the were necessary, there isn't any single exercise that's essential but they are invaluable and while difficult to learn properly doing them with an experienced partner will remove much of the risk.

Olympic Lifts are whole body, not lower body - which is what they should be used for.
Lower body (power) is not only what GAA players should work on. Upper Body strength is very important - (in fact stop looking at the body as Upper vs Lower anyway)
Med Ball are not Upper Body only - in fact they are a better whole body exercise than Olympic lifts (pound for pound for the GAA player) as they have less training needed, remove risk of injury etc etc.

3. You are mixing up hypertrophy with NFL size players, all the Irish players who went to Aussie Rules had to bulk up first and this is the mistake many GAA lads make, i.e. the fear that doing weights will make them bulky and cumbersome, this is simply not true. You can bulk up a bit without slowing down and bulking up is a big advantage for footballers, bigger muscles =greater strength and power. The key is to get the balance right and the main problem is most GAa lads are doing body building programs rather than sport specific ones.

No I'm not.
If you look at good professional strength training in professional sport (see myofibrillar vs sarcoplasmic) you'll see hypertrophy is a side effect not an aim (or very, very rarely).
Strength and Power matter in sport - not size.

And in fact on a side note ... Strength training improves aerobic ability - but I suspect that will be a stretch too far for you!
1991, University of Maryland - strength training improved cycling endurance (independent of changes in oxygen consumption)

They above study was simply as it says a side note showing you that strength training far from being negative is a very positive thing for aerobic ability.

JM I'm afraid you fall into the trap of taking a study as gospel, if I had the time or inclination I could find numerous studies that contradict each other in many areas of training. Now I'd have to see the study you refer to above before I could comment on it but I would suspect the strength training they were under going was high rep low weight stuff which might aid muscular endurance but weight training doesn't improve aerobic endurance. You always need to be careful when taking the results from studies as evidence of anything, for example if I did a similar study as the one you refer to and had 10 guys training by cycling and 10 guys training by cycling and weight training and the result was that the 4 most improved cyclists were from the weight/cycling group would that mean that weight training and cycling was better than cycling alone? Maybe, but it could also mean the 4 best athletes happened to be in the weight/cycle group or it could mean that they were slightly less fit and had more room for adaption i.e. it might have nothing to do with the weight training at all.

Strength Training improves an athletes aerobic ability - there's no denying that I'm afraid and that was the point.

[JMohan]

You Two obviously know your stuff,
But have to back Zulu's point on Endurance,
Our Closest relative sport in terms of similarity would the AFL,
Distance running is still a big part of their off-season and pre-season schedule.
"The Tan" being a good example.
all this talk has got me all excited about going to the gym now.

AFL is close, Rugby is too, Soccer is also - in different ways though

The more successful teams in all those sports do no long distance steady state running, sorry.

[JMohan]

Sorry for the long posts - Zulu and others 

The reason I posted on that is because they were just somethings that I believed years ago and then guys like McGurn, Moyna, Flanagan spoke at some talks or I read things by Connolly, McCloskey or Henessey or articles I changed the way I thought

But it took a long while

[Zulu]

We're discusing power and speed here and for that purpose training on wobble boards or unstable surfaces for athletes in contact sports (apart from occassional rehab for very specific issues) was more or less a fad and has now been dismissed as pretty much a gimmic for team contact sports or athletes looking to increase power output.

Sorry forgot to address this one, I wasn't referring to power and strength here, boojangles asked me about core work alternatives to sit ups and unstable surface exercises are very relevant to improving your core. Once you put yourself off balance your core works to keep you upright so any exercise that unbalances you is worthwhile exploring.

Distance running is not part of any successful teams training involved in a sport similar to GAA
You will get far more specific and better general conditioing for Gaelic Football with less negative affects by avoiding slow state steady running.

Firstly JM nobody is talking about 'slow steady state running', I repeat a 3 mile run isn't a slow steady state run, try run it in 18 minutes or less and you won't be having any conversations with your training partner. And in fairness you can't say that distance running isn't part of any successful team in the world or even this country, you simply don't know this. In fact I know of at least 2 county teams who are doing the kind of distances that I'm referring to as part of their program. The point here is that you don't have to do distance running, like I said I wouldn't do it in a team session myself but it won't harm you or slow you down if you do.

Olympic Lifts are whole body, not lower body - which is what they should be used for.
Lower body (power) is not only what GAA players should work on. Upper Body strength is very important - (in fact stop looking at the body as Upper vs Lower anyway)
Med Ball are not Upper Body only - in fact they are a better whole body exercise than Olympic lifts (pound for pound for the GAA player) as they have less training needed, remove risk of injury etc etc.

Correct they are total body exercises which is why they are so good but it is the lower body aspect of them that is really beneficial to GAA players. Pat Flanagan (former Kerry coach) had the Kerry lads on a primarily lower body weights program to improve their power and speed over short to middling distances. Again you are correct medicine balls are not only upper body exercises but they mainly focus on the upper body and are ideal for developing the explosive power needed in the upper body for fielding, hand passing, holding off opponents etc. Any muti joint exercise will have an impact on both upper and lower body I'm merely distinguishing for others reading this thread on what each exercise prioritizes.

If you look at good professional strength training in professional sport (see myofibrillar vs sarcoplasmic) you'll see hypertrophy is a side effect not an aim (or very, very rarely).
Strength and Power matter in sport - not size.

Sorry now JM but that is nonsense, bigger muscles = greater strength that is a fact, and hyperthrophy is generally the goal in the earlier part of the season, are you telling me Setanta O'Halpin didn't get bigger when he went over to the Aussies. First you get big, then strong and finally you develop power.

Strength Training improves an athletes aerobic ability - there's no denying that I'm afraid and that was the point.

There is every point in denying it, strength training won't inhibit your aerobic training true but if anyone reading this thread thinks by doing weights they are improving their aerobic abilities (to any worthwhile degree anyway) they'd be wrong. I would doubt that there is any valid study which indicates that strength training alone improves aerobic capabilities.

Oh by the way JM I'm not having a go at you, I'm enjoying discussing this with you and I hope others are finding it interesting or at least useful but I feel you are taking some things at face value when it is far more complicated than that. My own policy is not to take anything as fact and if you had read as many scientific papers as I have on these issues you might see what I'm taking about. I meant to say it before but I would even tell lads not to take what I say as correct, very little IMO is entirely wrong or entirely right. Training the human body is an inexact science and in 10 years from now some of the things we believe now maybe turned on their head. But it is always good to hear alternative points of view, even if your entirely wrong about everything you say and I' entirely right.  

P.S. Do you know if mexicans like myself can go to that talk in Ardmore?

[JMohan]

 
Fair play to you - you're taking your beating like a man!

[JMohan]

We're discusing power and speed here and for that purpose training on wobble boards or unstable surfaces for athletes in contact sports (apart from occassional rehab for very specific issues) was more or less a fad and has now been dismissed as pretty much a gimmic for team contact sports or athletes looking to increase power output.

Sorry forgot to address this one, I wasn't referring to power and strength here, boojangles asked me about core work alternatives to sit ups and unstable surface exercises are very relevant to improving your core. Once you put yourself off balance your core works to keep you upright so any exercise that unbalances you is worthwhile exploring.

Yes.
There is alot of hype and gimmicry in the core area.

Distance running is not part of any successful teams training involved in a sport similar to GAA
You will get far more specific and better general conditioing for Gaelic Football with less negative affects by avoiding slow state steady running.

Firstly JM nobody is talking about 'slow steady state running', I repeat a 3 mile run isn't a slow steady state run, try run it in 18 minutes or less and you won't be having any conversations with your training partner. And in fairness you can't say that distance running isn't part of any successful team in the world or even this country, you simply don't know this. In fact I know of at least 2 county teams who are doing the kind of distances that I'm referring to as part of their program. The point here is that you don't have to do distance running, like I said I wouldn't do it in a team session myself but it won't harm you or slow you down if you do.

Well to be fair - give me a little credit - I wouldn't say it if I hadn't checked first and asked someone who would know.... and I'm 99.9% certain.
As regards county teams ... I just know of some of the more successful ones and I know they don't advocate it.

Olympic Lifts are whole body, not lower body - which is what they should be used for.
Lower body (power) is not only what GAA players should work on. Upper Body strength is very important - (in fact stop looking at the body as Upper vs Lower anyway)
Med Ball are not Upper Body only - in fact they are a better whole body exercise than Olympic lifts (pound for pound for the GAA player) as they have less training needed, remove risk of injury etc etc.

Correct they are total body exercises which is why they are so good but it is the lower body aspect of them that is really beneficial to GAA players. Pat Flanagan (former Kerry coach) had the Kerry lads on a primarily lower body weights program to improve their power and speed over short to middling distances. Again you are correct medicine balls are not only upper body exercises but they mainly focus on the upper body and are ideal for developing the explosive power needed in the upper body for fielding, hand passing, holding off opponents etc. Any muti joint exercise will have an impact on both upper and lower body I'm merely distinguishing for others reading this thread on what each exercise prioritizes.

I won't be pedantic about this .... but I don't agree completely

If you look at good professional strength training in professional sport (see myofibrillar vs sarcoplasmic) you'll see hypertrophy is a side effect not an aim (or very, very rarely).
Strength and Power matter in sport - not size.

Sorry now JM but that is nonsense, bigger muscles = greater strength that is a fact, and hyperthrophy is generally the goal in the earlier part of the season, are you telling me Setanta O'Halpin didn't get bigger when he went over to the Aussies. First you get big, then strong and finally you develop power.

No. This was the old way of thinking.... get big, get strong and then get powerful.
Recently there is a big change away from this approach to just strength and power ignoring hypertrophy. If someone gets strong they MAY get bigger - but the rep ranges and effects are very different for size and hypertrophy.

Strength Training improves an athletes aerobic ability - there's no denying that I'm afraid and that was the point.

There is every point in denying it, strength training won't inhibit your aerobic training true but if anyone reading this thread thinks by doing weights they are improving their aerobic abilities (to any worthwhile degree anyway) they'd be wrong. I would doubt that there is any valid study which indicates that strength training alone improves aerobic capabilities.

Well there are. Will it exclusively improve aerobic ability - no. I'm just pointing out that weights will improve it (by left ventricular hypertrophy if you're interested in the mechanism)

Oh by the way JM I'm not having a go at you, I'm enjoying discussing this with you and I hope others are finding it interesting or at least useful but I feel you are taking some things at face value when it is far more complicated than that. My own policy is not to take anything as fact and if you had read as many scientific papers as I have on these issues you might see what I'm taking about. I meant to say it before but I would even tell lads not to take what I say as correct, very little IMO is entirely wrong or entirely right. Training the human body is an inexact science and in 10 years from now some of the things we believe now maybe turned on their head. But it is always good to hear alternative points of view, even if your entirely wrong about everything you say and I' entirely right.  

Same here.
Respectful debate is the only way I'll convince you there are better and newer ways!

P.S. Do you know if mexicans like myself can go to that talk in Ardmore?

I have no idea - but I think it would be good to attend it!

I'd love to hear Zulu ask McGurn a few of his questions and see what he says!

[screenexile]

Just a quick question about the jacknife crunch. I remember I had problems with my back last year and I aggrivated it doing jacknife crunches. Went to the chiropractor and she said they are unnecessary as they place undue stress on your back and you get just as good results doing a straight situp or a from the leg lift.

They are part of a core strengthening programme I'm doing at the minute and I don't think I'm going to risk them bbut just wondering if anyone more in the know than me had an opinion on them.