Pre season training regimes

[INDIANA]

every programme is individual, thats why generalised team programmes are a waste of time. Over time you will find exercises that don't conform to your body shape,size or whatever. Don't continue to do an exercise that places undue stress on your body. However it should indicate a particular weakness in your body, that you need to correct. But not by doing an exercise that makes the problem worse.

[boojangles]

Do you do squats and deadlifts boojangles?

I do squats yes,wouldnt do much weights on the legs to be honest though as I find that they cause my knees alot of problems lately.but Im open to suggestions because maybe Im doing something wrong? im not being smart here but if your explaining anything to me, keep it simple because I honestly would not not understand alot of what you and JMohan(as interesting as it is) are discussing.The last proper weights programme I would have done was nearly 4 years ago under MartyMcElkannon.I would appreciate any suggestions tho Cheers.

[Zulu]

JM you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm working off old theories and am not up with the latest thinking, now while I wouldn't class myself as an strength and conditioning guru all my opinions are based on the most up to date information (that I'm aware of).

Your point about professional teams and distance running is not really applicable to club level GAA, these are professional athletes who are in good shape 12 months of the year. But a club footballer who may not have done a whole lot of physical training in 4 or 5 months will certainly benefit from some aerobic training. But the point is, and you don't seem to be accepting this, is doing some distance running will in no way harm your ability to play football. That's the bottom line, you can say there are other ways of developing your aerobic fitness and there are but they are not any better at improving aerobic capacity than a few weeks of running.

If you want to improve strength you have to lift heavy, if you are lifting heavy without a previous solid base of medium weight using medium reps you are in serious danger of injuring yourself and what does lifting  medium to heavy weights with medium reps lead to? - Hypertrophy. I could get into the science of this but we'd all only get bored but anyone who starts off lifting for strength is risking injury simple as.

And JM I don't know who told you that weights will improve aerobic fitness but it doesn't, not to any noticeable degree, one of the main adaption's needed to improve aerobic fitness is an increase in the size and number of mitochondria  and weights don't influence this at all.

Boojangles, the best thing is to ask an instructor at your local gym as you would need to be monitored and corrected as you go. But if you want you can just google those exercises and you'll get both a description and, often a video demo of the exercises. Though if you have a specific question I'll try and help you out.

[thirteen03]

Referring to Zulu and JMohan's debate on distance running, I don't think you're actually in disagreement. I think JMohan is right to say that distance running isn't much use for footballers. It's not even the best way distance runners improve their fitness. They use interval training and tempo runs more often and a distance run about once a week. But the distances Zulu is talking about (3-4 miles) would be classified as tempo runs i.e. at a pace that you're too out of breath to carry a conversation at for 20-30 minutes, and I think these would also be of use to a footballer.

Interval training raises your lactate threshold while tempo runs train you to work at close to your lactate threshold for longer. Because of the nature of football, where you're working then resting then working etc... i think having a higher lactate threshold is more desirable than being able to maintain a work rate close to your lactate threshold for longer. But this is just my opinion of what's best in general and the answer may be different for every footballer (see the point made by someone about explosive players vs always on the move players).

So, I think Zulu and JMohan are both right, and not in disagreement.
(note what I've said is very black and white and as someone pointed out there is a continuum between probably all types of training)

[Zulu]

thirteen03 maybe I'm not making myself clear but I'm only saying that distance or tempo running as you call it is fine in the 4-6 weeks of preseason training. It's like me saying that a guy who wants to run a marathon for the first time should start off with 3 - 5 mile runs in the first 3 or 4 weeks. Doing that won't allow him run a marathon but it will give him the initial foundation to start building up the distances required to run a marathon. I agree interval running is more specific to football but you will be doing plenty of that later so while you don't necessarily need to do the longer distance stuff it won't negatively impact upon your ability to play football, it won't make you slower and it will give the aerobic ability to recovery more quickly during your interval runs thus allowing you to put more into them and improve further.

[thirteen03]

Yep, I get what your saying and I agree totally. If advising someone between interval training and tempo runs before reading this thread I probably would have given interval training the nod, but you make some good points about tempo runs and I would now also encourage them.

I think some confusion arose through use of the term "distance running" which may have been thought to mean runs lasting an hour or more (I've done these as part of football training in the past!). I knew that's not what you meant but you were instead talking about what distance runners call "tempo runs", so I was trying to clear up some confusion.

[Jinxy]

JMohan I would disagree about hypertrophy being a side effect rather than an aim. The simple fact of the matter is that the capacity of a muscle to generate force is directly proportional to it's cross-sectional area. However this doesn't result in the guy with the biggest muscle being the strongest, just the same as the guy with the highest VO2 max doesn't always win the race. There are other factors involved such as motor unit activation etc. Hypertrophy definitely has a role to play in a proper periodised pre-season training programme as long as people don't lose the run of themselves as sometimes happens and the development of bigger muscles becomes an end in itself. I would also subscribe to the view that first you get bigger, then you get more powerful. Now big is a relative term. We're not talking about lads becoming musclebound. And yes, if lads skipped the hypertrophy phase and started doing power work (aside from the fact that they would probably half-kill themselves) they would inevitably get bigger too given time. But I still think it makes far more sense to have a hypertrophy phase before you start with the power stuff. This is just in general, obviously the subject of the training plan must be taken into consideration. The lower a training base you're coming from, the greater capacity you have to improve. A seasoned weight-trainer could well skip the hypertrophy phase after years of pre-seasons and loads of experience of olympic lifts etc. But I don't think there are many lads like that knocking around the GAA. Certainly not in my experience anyway. It's an interesting topic though and it's nice to see there are people that know their stuff when it comes to this end of things.

[JMohan]

Just a quick question about the jacknife crunch. I remember I had problems with my back last year and I aggrivated it doing jacknife crunches. Went to the chiropractor and she said they are unnecessary as they place undue stress on your back and you get just as good results doing a straight situp or a from the leg lift.

They are part of a core strengthening programme I'm doing at the minute and I don't think I'm going to risk them bbut just wondering if anyone more in the know than me had an opinion on them.

It's tricky Sir
Getting advice on the internet is akin to getting STD advice from a virgin, but as a general rule ... Crunches and basic variations of are fine as part of a balanced program.

[JMohan]

JM you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm working off old theories and am not up with the latest thinking, now while I wouldn't class myself as an strength and conditioning guru all my opinions are based on the most up to date information (that I'm aware of).

It's not for me to judge you - the internet is great for this - I could be a 9 year old for all you know ...

Your point about professional teams and distance running is not really applicable to club level GAA, these are professional athletes who are in good shape 12 months of the year. But a club footballer who may not have done a whole lot of physical training in 4 or 5 months will certainly benefit from some aerobic training.

Agreed. Aerobic ability is needed - I don't argue that at all. My point is the best method to choose is not distance running.

But the point is, and you don't seem to be accepting this, is doing some distance running will in no way harm your ability to play football.

Well this is where we differ. But like I said that's ok too!

That's the bottom line, you can say there are other ways of developing your aerobic fitness and there are but they are not any better at improving aerobic capacity than a few weeks of running.

Long term for a GAA there are - again this is where we differ

If you want to improve strength you have to lift heavy, if you are lifting heavy without a previous solid base of medium weight using medium reps you are in serious danger of injuring yourself and what does lifting  medium to heavy weights with medium reps lead to? - Hypertrophy.

Yes and no. We have a very different philosophy when it comes to training. I argue that you can lift heavy from very eraly on, once form and speed is managed - and for a large part avoid much hypertrophy. Yes, you always will have some 'hypertrophy'
, but it can be and is best to be avoided for most sports. Strength on the other hand is a different thing.

I could get into the science of this but we'd all only get bored but anyone who starts off lifting for strength is risking injury simple as.

I understand how you might think like that - but trust me on this phrase - you do not need a hypertrophy phase for athletes.

And JM I don't know who told you that weights will improve aerobic fitness but it doesn't, not to any noticeable degree, one of the main adaption's needed to improve aerobic fitness is an increase in the size and number of mitochondria  and weights don't influence this at all.

Ok, like I said before this isn't the main issue. But strength training can positively influence aerobic ability.
Is it as the preferred method? No.
The reason I made this point was to emphasise the point that Strength Training can positively influence aerobic ability but Distance running can't positively influence strength.
The main reasons strength training can assist and positively influence aerobic ability are through (1) improvements in running effecincy (2) Increasing general power output (3) Ventricular Hypertrophy
I won't pull you up on it but you're point about mitochrondria is not completely accurate either - but I know what you mean.

Boojangles, the best thing is to ask an instructor at your local gym as you would need to be monitored and corrected as you go. But if you want you can just google those exercises and you'll get both a description and, often a video demo of the exercises. Though if you have a specific question I'll try and help you out.

[JMohan]

Referring to Zulu and JMohan's debate on distance running, I don't think you're actually in disagreement. I think JMohan is right to say that distance running isn't much use for footballers. It's not even the best way distance runners improve their fitness. They use interval training and tempo runs more often and a distance run about once a week. But the distances Zulu is talking about (3-4 miles) would be classified as tempo runs i.e. at a pace that you're too out of breath to carry a conversation at for 20-30 minutes, and I think these would also be of use to a footballer.

I don't see any benefit in running that distance at a slow steady pace.
The term tempo runs is also generally used for shorter distances in team sports - though it varies according to sport so it's no biggie

Interval training raises your lactate threshold while tempo runs train you to work at close to your lactate threshold for longer. Because of the nature of football, where you're working then resting then working etc... i think having a higher lactate threshold is more desirable than being able to maintain a work rate close to your lactate threshold for longer.

I was waiting for LA to be brought into the debate!
Don't get me started on it

But this is just my opinion of what's best in general and the answer may be different for every footballer (see the point made by someone about explosive players vs always on the move players).

Yes the bottom line is that play philosophy is very important here too

So, I think Zulu and JMohan are both right, and not in disagreement.
(note what I've said is very black and white and as someone pointed out there is a continuum between probably all types of training)

[JMohan]

JMohan I would disagree about hypertrophy being a side effect rather than an aim.

Well you can disagree - but it still doesn't change the fact that training for strength and training for hypertrophy are too completely different things

The simple fact of the matter is that the capacity of a muscle to generate force is directly proportional to it's cross-sectional area.

1. That's not entirely correct
2. A muscles ability to generate force is not the same as an athletes - ie. intra and intermuscular strength

However this doesn't result in the guy with the biggest muscle being the strongest,

Exactly - size is a by product

just the same as the guy with the highest VO2 max doesn't always win the race. There are other factors involved such as motor unit activation etc.

Yes - and they are FAR more important.
Focus on those

Hypertrophy definitely has a role to play in a proper periodised pre-season training programme

Aha - BINGO -
1. The problem is that your idea of a periodised plan is wrong.
2. Persiodisation for team sports is dead

as long as people don't lose the run of themselves as sometimes happens and the development of bigger muscles becomes an end in itself. I would also subscribe to the view that first you get bigger, then you get more powerful.

No ... old school thinking.
Hypertrophy has very little (i.e. nothing) to do with it - I'm saying Get strong then get powerful.

Now big is a relative term. We're not talking about lads becoming musclebound. And yes, if lads skipped the hypertrophy phase and started doing power work (aside from the fact that they would probably half-kill themselves) they would inevitably get bigger too given time. But I still think it makes far more sense to have a hypertrophy phase before you start with the power stuff.

No it doesn't. Do strength then do power ... well actually do both together - but lets keep it simple here for now or I'll really lose you all

This is just in general, obviously the subject of the training plan must be taken into consideration. The lower a training base you're coming from, the greater capacity you have to improve. A seasoned weight-trainer could well skip the hypertrophy phase after years of pre-seasons and loads of experience of olympic lifts etc.

First part correct.
Olympic lifts has very little to do with it

But I don't think there are many lads like that knocking around the GAA. Certainly not in my experience anyway.

You're not looking in the right places then!

It's an interesting topic though and it's nice to see there are people that know their stuff when it comes to this end of things.

[JMohan]

thirteen03 maybe I'm not making myself clear but I'm only saying that distance or tempo running as you call it is fine in the 4-6 weeks of preseason training.

Ok
Try this ... rather than running 3K
What is wrong with running 6 x 400m at an easy pace with long recoveries?

It's like me saying that a guy who wants to run a marathon for the first time should start off with 3 - 5 mile runs in the first 3 or 4 weeks. Doing that won't allow him run a marathon but it will give him the initial foundation to start building up the distances required to run a marathon.

You see this is the first mistake - people think stamina and then look for the best stamina runners and try and use their rpinciples of training when it's something completly different

I agree interval running is more specific to football but you will be doing plenty of that later so while you don't necessarily need to do the longer distance stuff it won't negatively impact upon your ability to play football, it won't make you slower and it will give the aerobic ability to recovery more quickly during your interval runs thus allowing you to put more into them and improve further.

You said you don't need to do it - exactly
It will not make you faster - it will prevent you getting faster
It will only encourage over use injuries
It will still have the same aerobic benefits - but added speed benefits?

Am I starting to convince you?

[JMohan]

Yep, I get what your saying and I agree totally. If advising someone between interval training and tempo runs before reading this thread I probably would have given interval training the nod, but you make some good points about tempo runs and I would now also encourage them.

I think some confusion arose through use of the term "distance running" which may have been thought to mean runs lasting an hour or more (I've done these as part of football training in the past!). I knew that's not what you meant but you were instead talking about what distance runners call "tempo runs", so I was trying to clear up some confusion.

Somebody better define the length and distance of the tempo run first or just like distance running we'll get caught up in it!

[JMohan]

Ok let me post a proper post here and clarify a few things as it seems a few here are starting to get a little confused...

I was very, very lucky to spend a full day just before Christmas day when i was supposed to be shopping with one Irish international team fitness coach, his friend who was one of the countries top fitness coaches - oh and (multiple) All-Ireland winner and a third guy I had never heard of before. One of them has been mentioned on here before.
They were all home on holidays for a few days before the Christmas games started and catching up with each other before heading away. So I knew one and met him for breakfast to ask him some training questions and the other two turned up they didn't mind me staying on and we chatted had breakfast, that went into lunch and then dinner just shooting the breeze and I'd ask a question and they'd debate it among themesleves and agree on most things but listening to them was incredible. I just happened to be there to meet one of them I asked after 3 hours could I get a notepad a pen and take notes! I'm sure you've been places where this kind of thing happens unexpectedly.
They were happy to help me, answer (stupid) simple questions and even helped me with names, books and people to look up.
To be honest they lost me on many things and got very detailed but a lot things I thought was correct about they told me I was way wrong.

From my notes ...
- One there are many ways to Rome
- Sports Science is evolving
- There is a BIG difference between the real world and Sports Science
- The real world - practice of sport at the highest level - is ahead of sports science in academia - so take what you learn in college with a pinch of salt
- Some top teams - soccer - have terrible training regimes but they just buy good players
- Distance running is not used anymore
- Some teams have tried NO preseason running in Rugby - one even came second in Europe one year
- Hypertrophy is not used by many of the top teams as an aim in training anymore
- Aerobic exercise in the form of distance work or similar is counter productive - cortsiol, injury, fibre type, stress
- You don't need olympic lifts - there's better ways
- There is no right or wrong - just better and wiser
- Bang-for-buck was a phrase used alot
- VO2 max is a waste of time
- It's all about power
- Power = Strength x Speed

I have lots of other stuff written down like about about supplements and most being a waste of money, exercises to do and what to avoid.

One of them made a very interesting prediction.
- He said that he thought there would be MORE injuries in the first few months of this year as a result of the break this winter than ever before - that will be interesting to watch
- Interestingly too - He also said Burn-out was a complete 'scam'
- He claimed that burnout (and at this stage was quoting high level reserach and biology/physiology/pyschology making my eyes twist) was more to do with improper coaching than any number of games.

I should point out all the guys had trained (or advised first hand) inter-county level GAA footballers so it wasn't a case of just saying what they would do, they actually have done - so that was helpful.

Interesting Side note
The third guy left first and when he left the other two asked me did I know who he worked with - of course I didn't even know his name before that morning - but it turns out he works for the two top rugby and soccer teams in the world! I mean top - and is regarded as one of the smartest fitness advisors in the world. Very humble and very very smart guy. But it was amazing who differently he looked at the way we train.

Of course I went home delighted to the raging missus who hadn't seen me all day with no Christmas shopping done after all that!

It was a bit like spending a day picking the brains of Mick O'Dywer, Alex Ferguson or Big Joe about football - but in a fitness sense. Certainly chnaged the way I looked at things. And some of the stories were brilliant too.

Of course all that means nothing - and at the end of the day what does it mean? - but it was very interesting to see the way they looked at training compared to the way I did - very differently

Now better do some work

[AbbeySider]

This thread had been quite an education guys so well done and thanks! 

Some great responses and kudos to you guys for keeping it a healthy debate and not starting to tear shreds off each other.
I have a few burning questions to finish off....

About three years ago when I first started gyming I was 11 & 1/4 stone.
Im now just over 13 stone which is more than efficient size/hypertrothy for my height, which is almost 5-11.
Im not carrying much fat at the minute but I will get leaner as the training starts back.

I change my program every 6-10 weeks, depending on the time of year and goals.
What I want to start working on is developing 'power' as I have the strength at this stage IMO.
At the moment I have three workouts: Chest & back, Arms and Shoulders, and Legs.
Depending on how much time I have, I may do abs and core work and stretching 2-3 times a week with those workouts.

I would normally do 3 sets of reps 10-8-6.
10 reps lifting moderate weight, 8 lifting a heavier weight and 6 or less of a weight I find really hard.
The odd time I might do a drop-set workout to get the very last out of the muscles, by finishing each exercise with multiple (12-15) light reps of a light weight.

I used to take protein supplements when I was gyming last year and the year before but I dont need them as much now. 

My understanding is that, to develop the power I need to be doing heavy to heaviest weights... explosively or in an explosive manner ?
EG when benching, I bring the bar down slowly and then push the bar with as much might/speed I can manage.
In the same way I plan to do jump squats instead of normal squats ?

If I apply the explosive technique to all exercises have I got the right idea when trying to develop power?
Or do you do drop-sets all the time?

Is there any other highly recommended exercises for power?