Video in Good Shepherd Chapel - Niamh Horan

[foxcommander]

I see what you did there. More reporting of a crime because society has become more and more aware that the law is on their side means the actual level of the said crime are higher in real terms. Good brains.

.....

The church gives (or tries to give) morals to people on how to live their lives better. Not all that preached them were good folk. The secular society doesn't offer much, just look after yourself and f%^k everyone else.

Class....don't believe in a faith tradition=don't give a fiddlers about anyone else   . Do you really think that or as Tony was suggesting to those opposing his view, are you just angry?

I'm not angry, I'm just telling it the way it is. Open your eyes and look how wonderful society is these days.
I've caught 12 year olds robbing a house, I see them drinking openly and engaging in adult behaviour outside junior discos. I've seen them assault adults on the streets. Teachers being assaulted in classrooms.

Is this a church problem or is it a problem with parents who aren't guiding their kids properly because they themselves have no moral compass.

[Lar Naparka]

LN
What part to you think the churches teachings/scripture had on this massive societal shift you talk about? Can the church take credit for any of it do you reckon?

I don't think everyone in the church is equally to blame but those who were aware of what was going on lacked influence and power.
I know the present archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, very well. IMO, he's a solid, honest individual and I couldn't imagine him trying too shield a child abuser. His predecessor, Desmond Connell refused to co-operate with the gardai when an investigation into child abuse in the diocese was launched. (As far as I can remember that was in the early noughties)
He maintained that Canon Law took precedence over civil law and refused to hand over relevant files. Then you had the extraordinary situation where the incoming bishop threatened to sue the outgoing one if he didn't comply with Garda requests.
In the end, Connell acquiesced with very much reluctance  and only because he knew it was only a matter of time until Diarmuid took over the diocese and would then have access to the documents in question.
Knowing Diarmuid, I'm certain he wasn't bluffing.
I mention al this because there were wide divergences of view amongst Church authorities and indeed priests and lay people.
BTW, very few if any seemed to be fully aware of the widespread abuse of children and women that was going on all around them.
If as girl was raped, often by a close relative or someone of influence in the locality, she was regarded as a "fallen woman" and either packed off to England or shoved into a Magdalene Home.
There were few like Diarmuid Martin back in the 50s and 60s and definitely sweet FA of them in times before that.
Sex was most definitely a taboo subject and even when a married woman had a baby she was regarded as being somehow "unclean" and had to undergo a cleansing ceremony before she could attend mass or take the sacraments again.
To try and answer you question, I'd say the Catholic Church back them lacked Christianity.
Have you heard of Jansenism?
The teachings of Jansen, a theologian from the 1600s, heavily influenced church thinking in Ireland to a larger degree than in any other European country.
The reason for this was that a large number of Irish students for the priesthood went to the seminary in Louvain where many of the staff held pro-Jansen beliefs. This was a Catholic version of Calvinism, pure and simple.
One had to come from a "posh" family to go to Louvain- Paddy Joe from over the mountain was lucky to get into All Hallows or Brendan's, Killarney.
The same PJ was likely to go no further up the promotion ladder than landing a curacy in some small parish or teaching ion some boarding school or other. If any of them became a PP in was in some isolated god-forsaken place that nobody else wanted.
Whereas the ones who were ordained in Louvain or Salamanca or the likes,  were the ones who went on to become canons and monsignors and the likes.
So you can see how the Jansenist priests carried a lot more clout than their numbers warranted.


The societal shift you speak of started in the mid to late 60s. The advent of TV was very much responsible for this.  If you are familiar with the works of Diarmuid Ferriter, the UCD historian who is pretty popular at the moment, you'll find that Church and State combined in an unholy alliance to keep power from the masses.
As a result, Ireland was a most conservative, introverted society from the time of the Famine or earlier for all I know.
I think the likes of Diarmuid Martin can take some credit for liberalising the church but then there were far more Connells than Martins back in the times we are referring to and it's been a long hard slog nce to get rid of them.
There are plenty of them still who yearn for the "good ol' days."

[T Fearon]

Johnnycool/Skull I think it is reasonable to say the Church has learned from its past mistakes and now has the most robust child protection policies of any institution in Ireland.

[The Iceman]

LN
What part to you think the churches teachings/scripture had on this massive societal shift you talk about? Can the church take credit for any of it do you reckon?

No replies to this

Did I ask the question in a far too civil a manner?

The shift to recognize the vulnerable in our society and protect them at all costs is a great one. One I'm proud to have lived through. I think we're all part of it? Regardless of colour, creed or religion? Your post implies the Church should get no credit Skull so to whom would you award the credit? Because society is made up of all of us - including the religious, including the Church.

The reality is that we're not going to solve anything here on the good old Gaaboard. I wish we could. The Church is broken but God remains. I believe it can only be fixed from within and no amount of screaming from the outside will make a difference.
At the parish level the protection of Children and the vulnerable in our communities is central to who we are as a Church - I've seen it . The good priests of these parishes are doing their best to make sure this never happens again while at the same time keeping their parish alive, engaging the people and trying to appease those who rightly so have axes to grind.
At the Diocesan and Arch-diocesan level the bishops and the cardinals who we all have no love for are slowly being pushed into the background and will disappear.
As all this continues to happen - lives are saved. Hopefully no more kids are destroyed, no more homes torn apart. Which is what we ultimately want right? I believe the victims will be compensated for eternity, the abusers and those who failed to protect the innocent will have their just rewards for eternity also.

We all want justice. We all want the sins of the past to be acknowledged and paid for- not just of the Church, but the British Government, the Irish state, those Cork bastards for killing Michael Collins and anyone else who has wronged us or society. But to embrace the present and reach ahead to the future, at some point we have to let go of the past......

[theskull1]

Encouraging story about Diarmuid Martin there Lar Naparka, so at a macro level there's a good example of a senior individual within the church structures manning up and understanding the importance to be "doing the right thing". Fair play to the man. I'm more interested in the global societal level though. I'll answer my own questions at that level

What part to you think the churches teachings/scripture had on this massive societal shift you talk about?  None in my opinion .....at best they reacted to public opinion and are still playing catch up as they protect the culpable/their coffers).
Can the church take credit for any of it do you reckon?    No, nothing intentional carried out by the church has moved society on in this regard, but the exposure of the church's shameful past making for good public discourse which has helped expose a shameful past in the hope it insulates future generations

The Church is being coerced to go with societies secular ethical & moral demands. The have lost the leadership role that they clung on to. That's evolution for you.

[give her dixie]

Are there nor several priests locked up? Comparisons with the British Govt are very valid. To mention just one incident, they will nor co operate with any Investligation into the Dublin bombings? Where were the mass protests on the streets of Dublin during the Queen's visit in 2011?

Tony, I will disagree with you 100% on your stance with Brady, but I will agree with you here on this point. Where indeed were the protests at the head of the state who murdered raped and pillaged at will here for centuries? How many British soldiers are in jail compared to priests?

Watching Corgi McGuinness and Michael D Higgings fawn all over her was and is sickening in the extreme. As Fox said earlier, a few words in Irish and all was forgiven.

As bad and horrendous as the crimes committed by those attached to the Catholic Church was here in Ireland, it pales in comparison to the crimes committed and still committing by the British state here in Ireland.

[The Iceman]

Encouraging story about Diarmuid Martin there Lar Naparka, so at a macro level there's a good example of a senior individual within the church structures manning up and understanding the importance to be "doing the right thing". Fair play to the man. I'm more interested in the global societal level though. I'll answer my own questions at that level

What part to you think the churches teachings/scripture had on this massive societal shift you talk about?  None in my opinion .....at best they reacted to public opinion and are still playing catch up as they protect the culpable/their coffers).
Can the church take credit for any of it do you reckon?    No, nothing intentional carried out by the church has moved society on in this regard, but the exposure of the church's shameful past making for good public discourse which has helped expose a shameful past in the hope it insulates future generations

The Church is being coerced to go with societies secular ethical & moral demands. The have lost the leadership role that they clung on to. That's evolution for you.

The Church is not being coerced into anything skull I'm afraid that's a sweeping statement which is just wrong. Societies secular demands will not influence the church or its teaching. The church's teaching (whether those inside have abided by it or not) has remained the same.
The church's shame is not in it's teaching, but in it's need to protect itself as an institution and putting that in front of the living out of it's teachings. That was and is the failure of the Church.
Please don't forget the Church has made a huge contribution to society and is heavily responsible for our advancement on many levels. The education system, the advancement of languages, hospitals, care for the sick and elderly, the advancement of science....the list goes on and on.....
You would have everyone believe otherwise - as if the "human species" evolved and has now surpassed any "God" which our ancestors believed in and the "unintelligent" of today still cling to right?

[theskull1]

TF/GHD

We, I'm sure all agree that the political classes are corrupt and self serving and isn't the church as an institution taking its lead from them? Delaying, obfuscating, denying, letting the sands of time blow until such times that a scripted apology gets read out way down the line. Those responsible for any atrocities and any subsequent cover up get away scot free. We're then told to move on. That's the way it goes and the church is playing it the same way. Maybe that's the way of the world, but I thought you spiritual guys were more interested in the moral and ethical positions being played out making sure your beloved institution does the right thing as they should be representing the views of the congregation? Right? It would seem that I'm wrong in that regard.


IM
I'm not going to deny the positive influences of the church (although I'm not an historian who would have full knowledge about the church over the centuries and how they controlled the masses) over the last couple of centuries. No one said they haven't done good things so I'm unclear why you suggest that I've implied otherwise.

Public exposure the the church scandal has moved society up a notch on the evolutionary scale.

[give her dixie]

TF/GHD

We, I'm sure all agree that the political classes are corrupt and self serving and isn't the church as an institution taking its lead from them? Delaying, obfuscating, denying, letting the sands of time blow until such times that a scripted apology gets read out way down the line. Those responsible for any atrocities and any subsequent cover up get away scot free. We're then told to move on. That's the way it goes and the church is playing it the same way. Maybe that's the way of the world, but I thought you spiritual guys were more interested in the moral and ethical positions being played out making sure your beloved institution does the right thing as they should be representing the views of the congregation? Right? It would seem that I'm wrong in that regard.


IM
I'm not going to deny the positive influences of the church (although I'm not an historian who would have full knowledge about the church over the centuries and how they controlled the masses) over the last couple of centuries. No one said they haven't done good things so I'm unclear why you suggest that I've implied otherwise.

Public exposure the the church scandal has moved society up a notch on the evolutionary scale.

You hit the nail on the head with that statement. Those that tell us to move on are those who have the most to hide.

[The Iceman]

TF/GHD

We, I'm sure all agree that the political classes are corrupt and self serving and isn't the church as an institution taking its lead from them? Delaying, obfuscating, denying, letting the sands of time blow until such times that a scripted apology gets read out way down the line. Those responsible for any atrocities and any subsequent cover up get away scot free. We're then told to move on. That's the way it goes and the church is playing it the same way. Maybe that's the way of the world, but I thought you spiritual guys were more interested in the moral and ethical positions being played out making sure your beloved institution does the right thing as they should be representing the views of the congregation? Right? It would seem that I'm wrong in that regard.


IM
I'm not going to deny the positive influences of the church (although I'm not an historian who would have full knowledge about the church over the centuries and how they controlled the masses) over the last couple of centuries. No one said they haven't done good things so I'm unclear why you suggest that I've implied otherwise.

Public exposure the the church scandal has moved society up a notch on the evolutionary scale.

I think if you read the context of the thread that the "spiritual" guys are in agreement with the "condemned to hell" guys (joke) that The Church hierarchy needs to own up, speak up and make it all right. But if you read further the spiritual guys are also in agreement that we don't know how that works out or what that looks like. Or even what would be enough. Or how this will impact the institution of the church... all things none of us can grasp and i'm sure you don't care about but decisions that impact billions of people....

[Orior]

LN
What part to you think the churches teachings/scripture had on this massive societal shift you talk about? Can the church take credit for any of it do you reckon?

I don't think everyone in the church is equally to blame but those who were aware of what was going on lacked influence and power.
I know the present archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, very well. IMO, he's a solid, honest individual and I couldn't imagine him trying too shield a child abuser. His predecessor, Desmond Connell refused to co-operate with the gardai when an investigation into child abuse in the diocese was launched. (As far as I can remember that was in the early noughties)
He maintained that Canon Law took precedence over civil law and refused to hand over relevant files. Then you had the extraordinary situation where the incoming bishop threatened to sue the outgoing one if he didn't comply with Garda requests.
In the end, Connell acquiesced with very much reluctance  and only because he knew it was only a matter of time until Diarmuid took over the diocese and would then have access to the documents in question.
Knowing Diarmuid, I'm certain he wasn't bluffing.
I mention al this because there were wide divergences of view amongst Church authorities and indeed priests and lay people.
BTW, very few if any seemed to be fully aware of the widespread abuse of children and women that was going on all around them.
If as girl was raped, often by a close relative or someone of influence in the locality, she was regarded as a "fallen woman" and either packed off to England or shoved into a Magdalene Home.
There were few like Diarmuid Martin back in the 50s and 60s and definitely sweet FA of them in times before that.
Sex was most definitely a taboo subject and even when a married woman had a baby she was regarded as being somehow "unclean" and had to undergo a cleansing ceremony before she could attend mass or take the sacraments again.
To try and answer you question, I'd say the Catholic Church back them lacked Christianity.
Have you heard of Jansenism?
The teachings of Jansen, a theologian from the 1600s, heavily influenced church thinking in Ireland to a larger degree than in any other European country.
The reason for this was that a large number of Irish students for the priesthood went to the seminary in Louvain where many of the staff held pro-Jansen beliefs. This was a Catholic version of Calvinism, pure and simple.
One had to come from a "posh" family to go to Louvain- Paddy Joe from over the mountain was lucky to get into All Hallows or Brendan's, Killarney.
The same PJ was likely to go no further up the promotion ladder than landing a curacy in some small parish or teaching ion some boarding school or other. If any of them became a PP in was in some isolated god-forsaken place that nobody else wanted.
Whereas the ones who were ordained in Louvain or Salamanca or the likes,  were the ones who went on to become canons and monsignors and the likes.
So you can see how the Jansenist priests carried a lot more clout than their numbers warranted.


The societal shift you speak of started in the mid to late 60s. The advent of TV was very much responsible for this.  If you are familiar with the works of Diarmuid Ferriter, the UCD historian who is pretty popular at the moment, you'll find that Church and State combined in an unholy alliance to keep power from the masses.
As a result, Ireland was a most conservative, introverted society from the time of the Famine or earlier for all I know.
I think the likes of Diarmuid Martin can take some credit for liberalising the church but then there were far more Connells than Martins back in the times we are referring to and it's been a long hard slog nce to get rid of them.
There are plenty of them still who yearn for the "good ol' days."

What a great post. It is weird thinking that I lived through some of that. Your post put some explanation to the context in which I was reared. Thank you

[T Fearon]

I want to see all those guilty of paedophilia put in jail, but I refuse to accept the Church is hindering that process. What sort of information does it have that would be material and could not be sourced elsewhere? Like it hardly has a log of activity relating to every paedophile priest?

[Pangurban]

Good posts Ice-Man

[foxcommander]

You are saying the mindset was different, I am saying people know when something is wrong and that was the same in the 50s and 60s so don't try to patronise me or justify any of these crimes by saying it was a different time and place.

Build a time machine and go fix it then.

[Zip Code]

You are saying the mindset was different, I am saying people know when something is wrong and that was the same in the 50s and 60s so don't try to patronise me or justify any of these crimes by saying it was a different time and place.

Build a time machine and go fix it then.

An equally stupid post!