religious education in schools..

[ardal]

Have to say that I think it's partially because of the phasing out of RE; or less significance given to it, that social norms and value have taken a mighty kick in the gonads. I'm a basic non believer, not hater, but I do think RE helps to further enforce certain aspects of decency and respect which is increasingly lacking in many our our younger generation

Have they? 

Racism and homophobia are no longer acceptable attitudes. Political corruption was once considered a fact of life but nowadays is subject to one tribunal after another and the public is sick of it. Smoking indoors around non smokers was once considered acceptable but not anymore. People didn't used to pass any remarks about animal cruelty but nowadays people are horrified by it. There's more respect for the rules of the road than there used to be.

Seems to me like social norms and values have improved.

Seems to me that you're leaping before looking.

Norms and values in society are basic issues of respect, please, thank you, saying sorry, not attacking people because you want to take what they have, common courtesy; not car rage etc.

And are these basic values under threat or in retreat? I'm not seeing any indication that they are. People in the street are as polite now as they ever were. Since when did you need to be "saved" or "washed in the blood of the lamb" to adhere to values like that? Religion takes far too much credit for instilling virtues that are already instilled by human nature.

Tribunals? Who's been sentenced thus far and how many tribunals have we had and at what cost. Who has paid the cost?

As a people we complain a hell of a lot which is completely justified but then again actions speak louder than words

Huh? What's all this got to do with the price of fish?

Sorry Eamonnca but you introduced Tribunals as people doing something so if you don't know the price of fish, take a rod and go fishing with the kids; alternatively buy them a game for their X Box.

With regards to the general respect that society has for each other, why don't you put it on youtube as you attack someone in the street, or twitter me as I sit in the seat opposite you, sure what's the problem we can buy everything we want but what do we need?

PS My use of "you" is plural.

[muppet]

This is just another soapbox Muppet, call it what it is. Like every other thread started and finished by you and your brigade. This is an all out rant on Donal McKeown and the Catholic Church. More axe grinding.....

Integrated education isn't just about religion as McKeown pointed out. It's political, its cultural. If you go after one in today's Ireland, I'm afraid you lose them all.
If Irish culture doesn't matter to you in school then good luck to you and your kids. I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games.

"I'm sure you are a very engaged parent who spends countless hours educating your children on Irish History, Music, Language and Gaelic Games."

Here is where your mock-devoted pious facade crumbles. You assume because you blindly defend the Church that you are a better parent, that you can teach more about Irish history, Irish music, Irish language and gaelic Games than I can. And this without knowing anything about me. Your arrogance can't hide your hypocrisy.

No, you read that completely wrong, in fact the opposite of what I intended. I don't assume any of that. You might be a wonderful parent, who knows. You might be able to teach your kids all these things.
As for me I can't teach my kids about Irish history, Culture, Language or Gaelic games anywhere close to the level they would receive in a Catholic School. Pushing integrated education takes these things away from my children and others who aren't as gifted as you might be.

Am I supposed to believe that your short post, which started as a lecture, then moved to suggesting culture didn't matter to me before finally saying I was brilliant at teaching my children something which didn't matter to me?

I'm asking if you are (if you cared about it)? Because if you are (and you did care about it) then culture wouldn't matter in schools to someone like you - but what about everyone else?
I understand you don't care for religion, now you don't care for Irish culture.
Religion aside, many people here do care about Irish Culture - its the source of this discussion board. For me the GAA goes hand in hand with Irish Culture.

I would imagine that you are in a small minority who have no room in education for the preservation and promotion of Irish culture.
So basically

What sort of nutcase are you?

I think I should leave you to argue with yourself, as you simply make up things that I never said and attribute them to me.

[muppet]

So Iceman, what you're saying is that i have to bring my schoolbag into a chapel in order to find god? It's all terribly confusing this religion carry on.

He also thinks you need to be Catholic to be Irish, a church of the long gone Roman Empire and a representative of a foreign and hostile state, The Vatican City. A church imposed on us by another extinct and formally hostile foreign state, England.

The Roman Catholic Church, the church that would have us ruled by London and Rome.

No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.

I'll speak for myself thank you.

My main argument with Iceman is simply that the best argument for Catholic Schools to remain, isn't for the promotion of Gaelic Games as he suggested.

The 2nd best argument isn't that we need them to preserve Irish culture. We don't. The Church is about its own culture, end of. They promoted their culture, Latin masses etc, we promoted our culture, not the other way round. If you examine all Catholic Church records of births, marriages & deaths going back as far as you can, you will not find a single one in the Irish language. Why? Their leadership doesn't even consider itself subject to our laws, never mind our culture.

The best argument for Catholic schools, as I've already said, is that there is a demand for them and that demand should be met.

[brokencrossbar1]

No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.

Absolutely right. It's gas how people only see in Catholic schools throughout the 20th century a regime of brainwashing, harsh both physically and mentally. This is fair enough on its own merits - it was brainwashing and it was harsh - but any serious analysis of the education system in the North has to take into account the regime that would have being operating in an integrated system. Anyone who thinks that the Nationalist community would have emerged intact from a system which would have been proceeding from the  principle that Northern Ireland was as British as Finchley is fooling themselves. Of course, maybe those people advocating such a system wanted everyone to receive such an education, but they should be honest about it.

The irony is deiseach that the Provisionals and SF were actually in favour of integrated education as far back as the early 70's but they could not adopt it as an overt policy as to do so would go in direct conflict with the singularly most influential body in the nationalist community, the RC church. 

[ONeill]

The Catholic schools I attended tried to bate the culture out of you.

[muppet]

No you and Muppet are deliberately misrepresenting what he is saying. The facts on the ground are that CCMS schools incorporate a more cultural Irish ethos in a similar way to the state schools reflecting British cultural norms. This is because that since partition the body overseeing the Catholic sector were the only statutory body in the state which maintained or permitted some degree of Irish identify - merely because the Church was organised on a 32 country basis. If it wasn't for the Catholc Church and the schools northerners wouldl all be cheering on "our boys" and waving union jacks at jubbilee street parties. Times have moved on yes and a new setup is required but the Catholic Church deserves some credit for allowing the space of Irish culture to survive in the north when it would have been easy to lump in on the side of the state as it did in so many other countries.

Absolutely right. It's gas how people only see in Catholic schools throughout the 20th century a regime of brainwashing, harsh both physically and mentally. This is fair enough on its own merits - it was brainwashing and it was harsh - but any serious analysis of the education system in the North has to take into account the regime that would have being operating in an integrated system. Anyone who thinks that the Nationalist community would have emerged intact from a system which would have been proceeding from the  principle that Northern Ireland was as British as Finchley is fooling themselves. Of course, maybe those people advocating such a system wanted everyone to receive such an education, but they should be honest about it.

The irony is deiseach that the Provisionals and SF were actually in favour of integrated education as far back as the early 70's but they could not adopt it as an overt policy as to do so would go in direct conflict with the singularly most influential body in the nationalist community, the RC church.

Jebus lads, if the Brits ever introduced any auld Penal Laws we'd be Morris Dancing at the crossroads every night, wouldn't we?

[Eamonnca1]

Sorry Eamonnca but you introduced Tribunals as people doing something so if you don't know the price of fish, take a rod and go fishing with the kids; alternatively buy them a game for their X Box.

With regards to the general respect that society has for each other, why don't you put it on youtube as you attack someone in the street, or twitter me as I sit in the seat opposite you, sure what's the problem we can buy everything we want but what do we need?

PS My use of "you" is plural.

What are you waffling about?

[mylestheslasher]

In my opinion, this is how school should work. Kid starts school at 9 and finished at 3. They do maths, irish, english etc. At 3 there is an hour for religious education of a type chosen by the school (catholic if the majority are catholic). A teacher or priest or whoever is employed for that hour. Parents who want this education should cover the cost of the teacher, insurance, heat etc during this hour. During normal hours there should be a general religious class educating on the different religions of the world, their differences and likenesses. Preperation for communion or any other religious activity should be done outside normal school hours. Under no circumstances should any school be under the patronage of any church nor have some bishop or priests as the head of that school unless they are voted in as a chairman like in any other committee. Seems a reasonable approach to me but I am sure the religious nazis would have another view on this.

Did you know in Germany to avail of a specific church you declare that you are a member and pay an extra "church tax" which pays for the upkeep of that church through government funding. You won't be married or confirmed etc unless you pay the tax. I think that is a great idea. Imagine how many people in Ireland would save a few pound from drinking or smoking to pay for the upkeep of their church.

[The Boy Wonder]

Bishop Martin's views on school patronage which most Catholics would support :
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/catholics-must-let-go-of-schools-martin-1.1254624

However if Myles and his ilk had their way we "religious nazis" would have to go back to the hedge schools of the penal days.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

In my opinion, this is how school should work. Kid starts school at 9 and finished at 3. They do maths, irish, english etc. At 3 there is an hour for religious education of a type chosen by the school (catholic if the majority are catholic). A teacher or priest or whoever is employed for that hour. Parents who want this education should cover the cost of the teacher, insurance, heat etc during this hour. During normal hours there should be a general religious class educating on the different religions of the world, their differences and likenesses. Preperation for communion or any other religious activity should be done outside normal school hours. Under no circumstances should any school be under the patronage of any church nor have some bishop or priests as the head of that school unless they are voted in as a chairman like in any other committee. Seems a reasonable approach to me but I am sure the religious nazis would have another view on this.

Did you know in Germany to avail of a specific church you declare that you are a member and pay an extra "church tax" which pays for the upkeep of that church through government funding. You won't be married or confirmed etc unless you pay the tax. I think that is a great idea. Imagine how many people in Ireland would save a few pound from drinking or smoking to pay for the upkeep of their church.

If Irish people had to pay Church tax, the census would be 95% atheist.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Bishop Martin's views on school patronage which most Catholics would support :
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/catholics-must-let-go-of-schools-martin-1.1254624

However if Myles and his ilk had their way we "religious nazis" would have to go back to the hedge schools of the penal days.

No you can learn the real subjects in a real school, you can tell your fairytails along the hedgerows.

[Syferus]

The principal in Nathy's during my time (a priest, of course) was found to have been claiming a wage for a dead former staff member for years. Actually made me like him more, though I didn't like him much to begin with.

Fact is a lot of the reason we still have so many Catholic schools is because the State gets free priest teachers and Church-subsidised expenditure. It was always rubbed into us in Nathy's that we were getting significantly less from the State as Community Colleges and the like.

[Eamonnca1]

The principal in Nathy's during my time (a priest, of course) was found to have been claiming a wage for a dead former staff member for years. Actually made me like him more, though I didn't like him much to begin with.

Fact is a lot of the reason we still have so many Catholic schools is because the State gets free priest teachers and Church-subsidised expenditure. It was always rubbed into us in Nathy's that we were getting significantly less from the State as Community Colleges and the like.

Um, what? You suddenly liked him when you found out he was a thieving, lying fraud? What does a priest have to do before you people will stop licking their taws and defending them? Rape a child or somethi ... oh.

[deiseach]

Jebus lads, if the Brits ever introduced any auld Penal Laws we'd be Morris Dancing at the crossroads every night, wouldn't we?

Probably. But if the goal was to preserve our cultural identity in the North in the face of Unionist propoganda and we had a choice between Catholic schools and Penal Laws, which would you choose?

[Billys Boots]

In my opinion, this is how school should work. Kid starts school at 9 and finished at 3. They do maths, irish, english etc. At 3 there is an hour for religious education of a type chosen by the school (catholic if the majority are catholic). A teacher or priest or whoever is employed for that hour. Parents who want this education should cover the cost of the teacher, insurance, heat etc during this hour. During normal hours there should be a general religious class educating on the different religions of the world, their differences and likenesses. Preperation for communion or any other religious activity should be done outside normal school hours.

This is generally what happens in Educate Together schools.