Irish mercenaries, unionist coat trailers and the Bard of Dunclug

[delboy]

Thanks for opening the thread again Donagh.

So why aren't you protesting against the British Army up at Whiterock this morning?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7707742.stm

If they were engaging in another coat-trailing exercise by marching up it I would be. As they're not, I won't be.

If its a coat trailing exercise surely the sensible thing is not to step on it or is it some sort of pavlovian response with you guys

[delboy]

To give a parallel, has progress with regard to racial equality throughout the world been achieved through the violence of racial minorities?

In essence yes - look at the situation in South Africa would apartheid have been demolished without the use of physical force?  We now have a situation where once a terrorist in many people's eyes (Nelson Mandella) is now regarded as a force of right for those seeking rights of their own.  There are many examples of this on a racial front but also on a global front.  Would Hitler have been defeated without the use of physical force reaction - no, we would have been living in a very different world today if this reaction hadn't have been utilised!

So the whites in South Africa gave in due to violence. And the whites in the US gave in because the blacks were shooting whites and bombing cities? And you think without 'this violence', there would still be apartheid in SA and the US?

I absolutely do especially with reference to South Africa.  Listen - I'm no advocate of violence however to use the analogy of our canine friend - if you punch and kick a dog long enough sooner or later it will bite the arm off you and what more could you expect?  I ask you, what was being done in 1967 in the North when Catholics were being shot dead in their homes (prior to IRA reactionary violence), those who were'nt business class could not vote, nationalists were not allowed to have another identity other than British and families were being evicted to the streets to let single protestant women move in?  Have we revised history so much that these social facts are now ignored - as I said earlier, 50 years of neglect and co-ercion was always going to have a breaking point!

So you don't think the passage of 41 years, the formation of a modern europe etc would have produced a single jot of movement for the good.
Left to there own devices i think the civil rights movement would have got where we are now a hell of a lot quicker than any armed conflict, lets face it the conflict was used as the justification for the removal of a huge amount of civil rights. 

[Zapatista]

This is a chicken and egg discussion.

[red hander]

To give a parallel, has progress with regard to racial equality throughout the world been achieved through the violence of racial minorities?

In essence yes - look at the situation in South Africa would apartheid have been demolished without the use of physical force?  We now have a situation where once a terrorist in many people's eyes (Nelson Mandella) is now regarded as a force of right for those seeking rights of their own.  There are many examples of this on a racial front but also on a global front.  Would Hitler have been defeated without the use of physical force reaction - no, we would have been living in a very different world today if this reaction hadn't have been utilised!

So the whites in South Africa gave in due to violence. And the whites in the US gave in because the blacks were shooting whites and bombing cities? And you think without 'this violence', there would still be apartheid in SA and the US?

I absolutely do especially with reference to South Africa.  Listen - I'm no advocate of violence however to use the analogy of our canine friend - if you punch and kick a dog long enough sooner or later it will bite the arm off you and what more could you expect?  I ask you, what was being done in 1967 in the North when Catholics were being shot dead in their homes (prior to IRA reactionary violence), those who were'nt business class could not vote, nationalists were not allowed to have another identity other than British and families were being evicted to the streets to let single protestant women move in?  Have we revised history so much that these social facts are now ignored - as I said earlier, 50 years of neglect and co-ercion was always going to have a breaking point!

So you don't think the passage of 41 years, the formation of a modern europe etc would have produced a single jot of movement for the good.
Left to there own devices i think the civil rights movement would have got where we are now a hell of a lot quicker than any armed conflict, lets face it the conflict was used as the justification for the removal of a huge amount of civil rights. 

You can't make an omlette without breaking eggs

[lynchbhoy]

To give a parallel, has progress with regard to racial equality throughout the world been achieved through the violence of racial minorities?

In essence yes - look at the situation in South Africa would apartheid have been demolished without the use of physical force?  We now have a situation where once a terrorist in many people's eyes (Nelson Mandella) is now regarded as a force of right for those seeking rights of their own.  There are many examples of this on a racial front but also on a global front.  Would Hitler have been defeated without the use of physical force reaction - no, we would have been living in a very different world today if this reaction hadn't have been utilised!

So the whites in South Africa gave in due to violence. And the whites in the US gave in because the blacks were shooting whites and bombing cities? And you think without 'this violence', there would still be apartheid in SA and the US?

I absolutely do especially with reference to South Africa.  Listen - I'm no advocate of violence however to use the analogy of our canine friend - if you punch and kick a dog long enough sooner or later it will bite the arm off you and what more could you expect?  I ask you, what was being done in 1967 in the North when Catholics were being shot dead in their homes (prior to IRA reactionary violence), those who were'nt business class could not vote, nationalists were not allowed to have another identity other than British and families were being evicted to the streets to let single protestant women move in?  Have we revised history so much that these social facts are now ignored - as I said earlier, 50 years of neglect and co-ercion was always going to have a breaking point!

I completely agree with this guy

as you have seen from the start of this threat, the mindset of many like the bard of dunclug is such that amicable relations and so on are still not forthcoming from a large majority of unionists it seems who are still trying to live in the old apartheid-like ways. So peaceful means were not going to cut it against such mindsets and aggression towards innocent nationalists. They didnt get anyone anywhere for decades. However a few decades of violence (unfortunately)seems to have (sadly) raised the stakes that caused the change and allowed nationalist people to finally become part of the same level as the opressing fraternity enjoyed. Peaceful means only received aggressive violence from the unionist/loyalist establishment.

it matters not who wore what jerseys to a protest, or how many protestants/catholics are in NI as the English Gov wants to jettison NI back to Ireland and this will happen once economic factors are right and the majority of people changes from protestant to catholic - (as I have said all along).
Nothing will stop this eventual unification....apart from the south not being able to afford it initially!

the bard has 'done a runner' now and his protests that 'it wasnt me' are a bit hard to believe given his sectarian posts previously.

[nifan]

how can it not matter how many prods and catholics there are if you then say we are waiting til there are more catholics than prods?

[his holiness nb]

Dont forget the bard is an elected representative of the Unionist people too.

[nifan]

Dont forget the bard is an elected representative of the Unionist people too.

Looking at the other elected representatives up here it cant be a surprise.

[Main Street]

how can it not matter how many prods and catholics there are if you then say we are waiting til there are more catholics than prods?

Good question.
Come on Lynchboy 

[his holiness nb]

Dont forget the bard is an elected representative of the Unionist people too.

Looking at the other elected representatives up here it cant be a surprise.

Ah but wishing murder on someone for opposing a march on a website, thats shocking, even by Northern Politicians standards.

[nifan]

Its disgraceful yes, but again looking at politicians up here more than a few have dodgier pasts than a few shocking comments on a website!

[mylestheslasher]

May I ask a question of the posters that support the parade. Do you agree with the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? Its a simple question - answers please.

[lynchbhoy]

how can it not matter how many prods and catholics there are if you then say we are waiting til there are more catholics than prods?

Good question.
Come on Lynchboy 

democracy
while the majority in NI want to remain part of the 'union' neither the English gov, the Irish gov or supporters of unification can force this to go ahead.
in short the answer is 'Democracy'.

[nifan]

thats not an answer to any question.
You said the number of prods/catholics doesnt matter only to say that the important thing is when there are more catholics than prods.
That doesnt make any sense.

Are the numbers important or not?

[Zapatista]

it matters not who wore what jerseys to a protest, or how many protestants/catholics are in NI as the English Gov wants to jettison NI back to Ireland and this will happen once economic factors are right and the majority of people changes from protestant to catholic - (as I have said all along).

My take on this was that it doesn't matter right now about the numbers as the Brits have made their decision on the future. They are just waiting on an excuse to implement that decision. He then concludes this will happen when the numbers change.