Irish mercenaries, unionist coat trailers and the Bard of Dunclug

[Donagh]

"Backed down"? Bit of an overstatement there, Donagh.
For the record, I still contend there are 1 million Unionists in NI (or as near as dammit) and have clearly outlined my reasoning for doing so.
However, for the sake of argument, I accepted your assertion that there are only 400k Unionists in NI, since I wanted to hear from you how many Nationalists you think there are in NI.
so have you an answer for me on this?

What are you on? Are you saying there are 1 million unionists? Give me the hard evidence and less of your "reasoning" please.

OK, you are correct, There are only 400k Unionists in NI. And 300k Nationalists. Or am I wrong about this latter figure, as well?

Thank you. I neither know nor care how many nationalists there are in the north, but while we are in the game of demanding answers, I think you may have missed those queries I had regarding your other claims about unionism, it's ideology and history.

[ardmhachaabu]

Irish News, Newsletter.  I daresay the Telegraph got a few as well, whether they published them or not is a different matter.  There was also coverage on news items which showed spides in Celtic tops.  Of course though, you managed not to see any of them.  Good for you.

I have the Irish News in front of me now and there are none. Looked at the Tele earlier and there were none in that either. Have just looked through the Newsletter website and I can't see any there either. Could it be possible that you are mistaken?

Nope.

[Maguire01]

Irish News, Newsletter.  I daresay the Telegraph got a few as well, whether they published them or not is a different matter.  There was also coverage on news items which showed spides in Celtic tops.  Of course though, you managed not to see any of them.  Good for you.

I have the Irish News in front of me now and there are none. Looked at the Tele earlier and there were none in that either. Have just looked through the Newsletter website and I can't see any there either. Could it be possible that you are mistaken?

There's one hiding on page 5 of the Irish News - left hand side, under a coat.  

[Maguire01]

To give a parallel, has progress with regard to racial equality throughout the world been achieved through the violence of racial minorities?

In essence yes - look at the situation in South Africa would apartheid have been demolished without the use of physical force?  We now have a situation where once a terrorist in many people's eyes (Nelson Mandella) is now regarded as a force of right for those seeking rights of their own.  There are many examples of this on a racial front but also on a global front.  Would Hitler have been defeated without the use of physical force reaction - no, we would have been living in a very different world today if this reaction hadn't have been utilised!

So the whites in South Africa gave in due to violence. And the whites in the US gave in because the blacks were shooting whites and bombing cities? And you think without 'this violence', there would still be apartheid in SA and the US?

[Donagh]

Irish News, Newsletter.  I daresay the Telegraph got a few as well, whether they published them or not is a different matter.  There was also coverage on news items which showed spides in Celtic tops.  Of course though, you managed not to see any of them.  Good for you.

I have the Irish News in front of me now and there are none. Looked at the Tele earlier and there were none in that either. Have just looked through the Newsletter website and I can't see any there either. Could it be possible that you are mistaken?

Nope.

Well you said they were pictured in the Irish News and the Tele and they are not. As I was there and you were looking on from a distance, my tendency is to think you are mistaken.

[ardmhachaabu]

Maguire, my point is that Donagh was covering the truth.  See, while he was saying yesterday there were no spides in Celtic tops, that's exactly what I saw a lot of yesterday morning.  I couldn't say anything until I saw at least one image in the papers to say otherwise coz Donagh would have just said he didn't see it... much like he's doing now  

Donagh, I said Irish News and Newsletter.  The IN clearly shows a spide complete with Celtic top.  I can assure you he wasn't on  his own.  The Newsletter captured some as well.

[Donagh]

Irish News, Newsletter.  I daresay the Telegraph got a few as well, whether they published them or not is a different matter.  There was also coverage on news items which showed spides in Celtic tops.  Of course though, you managed not to see any of them.  Good for you.

I have the Irish News in front of me now and there are none. Looked at the Tele earlier and there were none in that either. Have just looked through the Newsletter website and I can't see any there either. Could it be possible that you are mistaken?

There's one hiding on page 5 of the Irish News - left hand side, under a coat.  

Is that the young one where you can see a single stripe just above some boys head? I squinted at that but am not convinced. Besides he's ahead of the banner of which all the protesters were asked to stay behind. Looks like a some wee lad having a nosey. Very different profile from the protesters.  

[Donagh]

The IN clearly shows a spide complete with Celtic top.  I can assure you he wasn't on  his own.  The Newsletter captured some as well.

What page? Listen let's agree to disagree. From a distance you may have seen a few spides in the vicinity of the protest. I was on the protest and can assure you, the vast vast majority on the protest were not. There may have been a few arseholes hanging around the fringes in the hope that the media hype of trouble would come to pass, but there were none involved in the protest. I had spotted a few dicks with hoodies and covered faces in the bus stop opposite Divis tower before the protest started but they weren't involved and soon pissed off when they realised it wasn't their thing. As I mentioned before, about four, probably drunk spides joined the back of the crowd when we were at PSNI lines and started shouting "f**k Sin Fein" but they were quickly dealt with and sent on their way.

[Aoise]

To give a parallel, has progress with regard to racial equality throughout the world been achieved through the violence of racial minorities?

In essence yes - look at the situation in South Africa would apartheid have been demolished without the use of physical force?  We now have a situation where once a terrorist in many people's eyes (Nelson Mandella) is now regarded as a force of right for those seeking rights of their own.  There are many examples of this on a racial front but also on a global front.  Would Hitler have been defeated without the use of physical force reaction - no, we would have been living in a very different world today if this reaction hadn't have been utilised!

So the whites in South Africa gave in due to violence. And the whites in the US gave in because the blacks were shooting whites and bombing cities? And you think without 'this violence', there would still be apartheid in SA and the US?

I absolutely do especially with reference to South Africa.  Listen - I'm no advocate of violence however to use the analogy of our canine friend - if you punch and kick a dog long enough sooner or later it will bite the arm off you and what more could you expect?  I ask you, what was being done in 1967 in the North when Catholics were being shot dead in their homes (prior to IRA reactionary violence), those who were'nt business class could not vote, nationalists were not allowed to have another identity other than British and families were being evicted to the streets to let single protestant women move in?  Have we revised history so much that these social facts are now ignored - as I said earlier, 50 years of neglect and co-ercion was always going to have a breaking point!

[Maguire01]

To give a parallel, has progress with regard to racial equality throughout the world been achieved through the violence of racial minorities?

In essence yes - look at the situation in South Africa would apartheid have been demolished without the use of physical force?  We now have a situation where once a terrorist in many people's eyes (Nelson Mandella) is now regarded as a force of right for those seeking rights of their own.  There are many examples of this on a racial front but also on a global front.  Would Hitler have been defeated without the use of physical force reaction - no, we would have been living in a very different world today if this reaction hadn't have been utilised!

So the whites in South Africa gave in due to violence. And the whites in the US gave in because the blacks were shooting whites and bombing cities? And you think without 'this violence', there would still be apartheid in SA and the US?

I absolutely do especially with reference to South Africa.  Listen - I'm no advocate of violence however to use the analogy of our canine friend - if you punch and kick a dog long enough sooner or later it will bite the arm off you and what more could you expect?  I ask you, what was being done in 1967 in the North when Catholics were being shot dead in their homes (prior to IRA reactionary violence), those who were'nt business class could not vote, nationalists were not allowed to have another identity other than British and families were being evicted to the streets to let single protestant women move in?  Have we revised history so much that these social facts are now ignored - as I said earlier, 50 years of neglect and co-ercion was always going to have a breaking point!

You say you're no advocate of violence here, but then you pretty much advocate it.

No one is ignoring these social facts. They were what spawned the Civil Rights movement - that was a breaking point.

[Aoise]

To give a parallel, has progress with regard to racial equality throughout the world been achieved through the violence of racial minorities?

In essence yes - look at the situation in South Africa would apartheid have been demolished without the use of physical force?  We now have a situation where once a terrorist in many people's eyes (Nelson Mandella) is now regarded as a force of right for those seeking rights of their own.  There are many examples of this on a racial front but also on a global front.  Would Hitler have been defeated without the use of physical force reaction - no, we would have been living in a very different world today if this reaction hadn't have been utilised!

So the whites in South Africa gave in due to violence. And the whites in the US gave in because the blacks were shooting whites and bombing cities? And you think without 'this violence', there would still be apartheid in SA and the US?

I absolutely do especially with reference to South Africa.  Listen - I'm no advocate of violence however to use the analogy of our canine friend - if you punch and kick a dog long enough sooner or later it will bite the arm off you and what more could you expect?  I ask you, what was being done in 1967 in the North when Catholics were being shot dead in their homes (prior to IRA reactionary violence), those who were'nt business class could not vote, nationalists were not allowed to have another identity other than British and families were being evicted to the streets to let single protestant women move in?  Have we revised history so much that these social facts are now ignored - as I said earlier, 50 years of neglect and co-ercion was always going to have a breaking point!

You say you're no advocate of violence here, but then you pretty much advocate it.

No one is ignoring these social facts. They were what spawned the Civil Rights movement - that was a breaking point.

Yes and look what happened to that it was beaten into the ground - your right that was breaking point, it was the torchpaper for what followed.  If civil rights had have been accepted in the nature that it was intended then I don't believe the troubles would have become a reality again as I say - reaction!

I do stand by what I said, I do not advocate violence but I do believe that if a people have no other means by which to defend themselves then they are entitled to use means that wouldn't ordinarily have been used.  That said, I do think the troubles degenerated into a sectarian war which many republicans did not want, including Gerry Adams and Bobby Sands who even at a very early stage recognised that sectarian tit for tat just played into the hands of the constitutional holders.  They  advocated an economic war with economic targets and when I speak of violence I suppose I recognise this as a legitimate reaction to what was happening in Ireland>

[Zapatista]

This thread has taken the direction I thought it might. EG has managed to turn it into a numbers game to justify his position in defence of British Nationalism. The numbers quoted whether they are accurate or not can't justify the actions carried out by the RIR. Be it in Ireland or Afghanistan there is no moral justification for the murder and torture of those people. The support of for the RIR among Unionists is misdirected by the Butchers apron. It is not support for the brave men and women of the RIR but support for an illusion of Birish superiority. The defenders of the RIR parade are no more than brain washed fools being used and abused as justification for the RIR to defend and continue in their murder and torture. The numbers (or lack of) out supporting the protest do not take away from the act itself or its meaning.

There is no moral justification for the behaviour of the British in Ireland or in Afghanistan. The support for these actions is taken from something entirely different- British Nationalism. This thread has lost its direction due to the inability of British Nationalists to put up a moral defence. The defence is then taken from somewhere different. You can take the support of British Nationalism as justification and convince yourself it actually is justification but you are not being honest with youself. Sometimes the truth does hurt so we stop looking for it or look for ways of denying it. We are often unable to come to terms with the fact that we have been fooled and lied to and we have innocently defended those lies for such a long time we are now part of the problem. That is exactly what we have with the support shown for the RIR.

[Donagh]

I'm tending to agree with you. The decent into ritual tribalism by some and a silly game of spot the non-existent Celtic shirt by others are surely indications this thread has come to and end. Thread locked. If anyone has a reason as to why it should be reopened send me a PM.

[Chrisowc]

Thanks for opening the thread again Donagh.

So why aren't you protesting against the British Army up at Whiterock this morning?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7707742.stm

[Donagh]

Thanks for opening the thread again Donagh.

So why aren't you protesting against the British Army up at Whiterock this morning?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7707742.stm

If they were engaging in another coat-trailing exercise by marching up it I would be. As they're not, I won't be.