The Official Lisbon Treaty Thread

[stiffler]

Thanks Zapista, on that evidence its a (hypotethical) no vote for me.

Will the Lisbon treaty have the power to unify corporation tax rates in the EU?

I dont think Ireland should enter this treaty if it is to push up the 12.5% rate.

[Zapatista]

Thanks Zapista, on that evidence its a (hypotethical) no vote for me.

Will the Lisbon treaty have the power to unify corporation tax rates in the EU?

I dont think Ireland should enter this treaty if it is to push up the 12.5% rate.

As a no voter I might be bias.

Neither side can agree on what the treaty does on Tax rates.

Yes - No it will not effect our Tax rate as reland will retain a veto in relation to tax.

No - Irelands veto on Tax is not secured. + If the veto is secured there is an unwillingness amoungst Irelands repersentaion in the Eu to use a veto.

[stevo-08]

For those of us who have not been following the Lisbon treaty debate, could someone outline the 3 main reasons for voting yes and 3 for no.

Thanks.

If you believe the Yes Camp:
1. The EU has been good for Ireland
2. Will mean faster decision making via qualified majority voting (QMV)
3. We will maintain a veto in important negotiations such as the WTO agreement

If you believe the No Camp:
1. Creates an unelected president & foreign minister of europe
2. Reduces Ireland power in negotiations (Halves our voting rights & abolishes irelands commissioner for 5 years)
3. Opens the door to interference in tax and other key economic interests

As zapista said, some of the above can be countered by the other side. One of the biggest problems is that it's very unclear how some of the articles in the treaty will effect Ireland (such as the important Tax issue you mention). And I think that uncertainty might be the biggest obstacle for the YES camp to overcome.

[Zapatista]

Stevo, your no.1 on the Yes side is a big arguement for them but it has nothing to do with the treaty. The No side also agree that the EU has been and is good for Ireland.

[stevo-08]

Yep, I know that. I was just listing some of the main arguements the Yes & No side are putting forward. In hindsight, that probably wasnt answering stiffler's question.

Have to say, It made me mad listening to Brendan Butler yesterday rhyming off how much Ireland has benefited since joining the EU. As I said previously, some of their arguements sound like its a referendum on Opting out of the EU. But as you rightly say, that has nothing to do with this treaty.

[stiffler]

There is too much uncertainty attached with a opting in vote, the Yes vote needs to be made transparent to the voter, and then if the argument is strong enough, it will be passed.

However, from my understanding there is too much ambigouity in the reasons for voting Yes, and the people will choose to keep the status quo.

[Tankie]

i'm fairly unsure on the whole thing but I think I would Vote Yes instead of NO as all the unions and Main Parties are backing it. I was a strong Yes man at the start but not so much now but as one of the lads sai today - just look who is tell you to vote NO so that should make your mind up for you.

Just don't know anymore!

[stevo-08]

i'm fairly unsure on the whole thing but I think I would Vote Yes instead of NO as all the unions and Main Parties are backing it. I was a strong Yes man at the start but not so much now but as one of the lads sai today - just look who is tell you to vote NO so that should make your mind up for you.

Just don't know anymore!

Well if the vote was today, then it'd be a NO for me. And I cant see the Yes camp convincing me between today and next thursday either. I dont like the new QMV system, I dont like the new system for rotating the commissioners and I'm worried about the growing attention our tax system is getting from the likes of France (I know we have a veto but am sceptical about us being willing to use it). There's also some doubts about our neutrality status. As stiffler says, there's just too much uncertainty attached.

However, I fear that what you say about the Main Parties & Unions backing the treaty might swing alot of undecided if the turnout is high.

[Zapatista]

i'm fairly unsure on the whole thing but I think I would Vote Yes instead of NO as all the unions and Main Parties are backing it. I was a strong Yes man at the start but not so much now but as one of the lads sai today - just look who is tell you to vote NO so that should make your mind up for you.

Just don't know anymore!

All the unions are not backing it.

Can you explain to me why those saying No are more or less credible than those saying Yes?

[Treasurer]

2. Reduces Ireland power in negotiations (Halves our voting rights & abolishes irelands commissioner for 5 years)

Just a point on this - the number of commissioners is being reduced whether we vote yes or not - it has already been passed in the Nice treaty.  Voting Yes will actually defer this until 2014, but a no vote will mean a reduction will be introduced in 2009.  Under the Lisbon treaty, each member is treated equally in this reduction, this may not happen if the reduction is under the Nice treaty, as the format has not been decided and could even end up with larger states with permanent commissioners and smaller states being left with rotating representation.

[Zapatista]

2. Reduces Ireland power in negotiations (Halves our voting rights & abolishes irelands commissioner for 5 years)

Just a point on this - the number of commissioners is being reduced whether we vote yes or not - it has already been passed in the Nice treaty.  Voting Yes will actually defer this until 2014, but a no vote will mean a reduction will be introduced in 2009. 

I have no problem with the reduction of the commission. I do have a problem with a reduction in a commission which is a  powerful unelected body in which we have no representation for 5 out of 15 years and when they meet they meet in secret. The current model would work better with a reduction but the offer in the treaty makes a bad situation worse. The arguement that it is unworkable now is false. It is not good now but it is working. The Eu are making decision faster post enlargement. With 27 commissioners it is still smaller than the 33 ministers in Ireland which there is no uproar for change in. There needs to be a change in the commission but not merely for the sake of change.

[Treasurer]

The only point I'm making is that some people are harping on about the reduction and seem blissfully unaware that a reduction is on the cards regardless.

[muppet]

I think Trichet removed any doubt about the Lisbon Treaty vote with his comments yesterday. Its going south with our banking sector and the rest of the economy. I'd say Cowan would deck him if he met him today.

BTW the US military's problem is that they dont want another Federal superpower in Europe with one cohesive military. Buts thats another story.

[magickingdom]

as someone who would love to see a yes vote its sad to see in todays times poll about 50% of the no voters were in the 'i dont understand it' and 'i dont like being told what to do' category. their reasons for voting no had nothing to do with the treaty but no they were. i think its more a no to politics than europe and with the horseshit coming out of bertie at the mahon tribunal its hard to get people to say yes to anything. that doesnt make it right tho

[muppet]

as someone who would love to see a yes vote its sad to see in todays times poll about 50% of the no voters were in the 'i dont understand it' and 'i dont like being told what to do' category. their reasons for voting no had nothing to do with the treaty but no they were. i think its more a no to politics than europe and with the horseshit coming out of bertie at the mahon tribunal its hard to get people to say yes to anything. that doesnt make it right tho

Do you have a problem with the 'Yes but I dont understand it' and 'I do like being told what to do'?

Or better still the 'I'm telling you to vote yes but sure I haven't even read it meself'.

It may be the greatest piece of writing for the Irish since Father Ted but it there anyone who can tell my why? Lenihan on George Hook was ordering us to vote Yes 'because there is no plan B'. He cant even explain what plan A is.

I can understand the absence of a plan and can vote for that.

I cant understand that all of our main leaders agree on a plan that some haven't read, none can explain and certainly none appear to understand. They then attack any opponents for creating confusion.

Europe is on an unavoidable course to being a Federal Republic with a single army run by people who we will never get to elect.  We probably have that situation already (nothing else can explain to me why we give away our only natural resources for free).