The Official Lisbon Treaty Thread

[magickingdom]

as someone who would love to see a yes vote its sad to see in todays times poll about 50% of the no voters were in the 'i dont understand it' and 'i dont like being told what to do' category. their reasons for voting no had nothing to do with the treaty but no they were. i think its more a no to politics than europe and with the horseshit coming out of bertie at the mahon tribunal its hard to get people to say yes to anything. that doesnt make it right tho

Do you have a problem with the 'Yes but I dont understand it' and 'I do like being told what to do'?

Or better still the 'I'm telling you to vote yes but sure I haven't even read it meself'.
It may be the greatest piece of writing for the Irish since Father Ted but it there anyone who can tell my why? Lenihan on George Hook was ordering us to vote Yes 'because there is no plan B'. He cant even explain what plan A is.

I can understand the absence of a plan and can vote for that.

I cant understand that all of our main leaders agree on a plan that some haven't read, none can explain and certainly none appear to understand. They then attack any opponents for creating confusion.

Europe is on an unavoidable course to being a Federal Republic with a single army run by people who we will never get to elect.  We probably have that situation already (nothing else can explain to me why we give away our only natural resources for free).

no one in those categories...

the anti nice campaigners told similar lies to the anti lisbon campaigners 'it'll cost you/you will lose money, power, etc  yet 6 years on with the irish economy growing at between 4-6% per year (twice eu average) none of these liars are being asked to explain themselves. your last paragraph is a similar bunch of lies

[muppet]

as someone who would love to see a yes vote its sad to see in todays times poll about 50% of the no voters were in the 'i dont understand it' and 'i dont like being told what to do' category. their reasons for voting no had nothing to do with the treaty but no they were. i think its more a no to politics than europe and with the horseshit coming out of bertie at the mahon tribunal its hard to get people to say yes to anything. that doesnt make it right tho

Do you have a problem with the 'Yes but I dont understand it' and 'I do like being told what to do'?

Or better still the 'I'm telling you to vote yes but sure I haven't even read it meself'.
It may be the greatest piece of writing for the Irish since Father Ted but it there anyone who can tell my why? Lenihan on George Hook was ordering us to vote Yes 'because there is no plan B'. He cant even explain what plan A is.

I can understand the absence of a plan and can vote for that.

I cant understand that all of our main leaders agree on a plan that some haven't read, none can explain and certainly none appear to understand. They then attack any opponents for creating confusion.

Europe is on an unavoidable course to being a Federal Republic with a single army run by people who we will never get to elect.  We probably have that situation already (nothing else can explain to me why we give away our only natural resources for free).

no one in those categories...

the anti nice campaigners told similar lies to the anti lisbon campaigners 'it'll cost you/you will lose money, power, etc  yet 6 years on with the irish economy growing at between 4-6% per year (twice eu average) none of these liars are being asked to explain themselves. your last paragraph is similar bunch of lies

Merely my opinion. No one is in a position to say whether it is true or not until we can look back.

Except of course that or Government have given away (as recently as 2006) our natural resources for free. That is completely true. Assuming that they couldn't still be taking brown envelopes in 2006 what explaination is there for a reasonable intelligent man like Dempsey selling billions of euros worth of gas for nothing?

[muppet]

What I know is that (according to Cowan) this is 90% of the Constitution that failed.

I also know that constitutions are usually associated with countries not just merely a continental quilt of countries.

I also remember a time when leaders (for better or worse) were all elected. Even recently I remember a time when elections were seen as a time when 'the voice of the people' would be heard.

All I hear now is that we have to vote yes. If we dont it will be seen like the French and the Dutch(?), i.e. a mistake to be corrected by the government.

'There is no plan B' Lenihan means 'dont you dare vote no'.

[Farrandeelin]

What annoys the hell out of me is that we are the only country that is voting on this treaty. If (as all the 'yes-men' say) this is better for democracy in Europe, why the hell aren't the other countries voting for it as well? It's probably because they know bloody well it'd be rejected, like the EU constitution treaty was in France and Holland. I haven't been following the last 7/8 pages of this debate so I don't know if anyone else feels the same as me.

[Donagh]

'There is no plan B' Lenihan means 'dont you dare vote no'.

Actually there is: http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/2008/06/lisbonwho-says-theres-no-plan-b.html

For any northerners interested in how this all affects us up here, there's a public debate on Monday evening in Conway Mill at 7pm

http://www.caeuc.org/index.php?q=node/304

As well as the three speakers listed there, the DUP have agreed to put someone forward and they are waiting to hear back from the PUP.

[Treasurer]

What annoys the hell out of me is that we are the only country that is voting on this treaty. If (as all the 'yes-men' say) this is better for democracy in Europe, why the hell aren't the other countries voting for it as well? It's probably because they know bloody well it'd be rejected, like the EU constitution treaty was in France and Holland. I haven't been following the last 7/8 pages of this debate so I don't know if anyone else feels the same as me.

We're the only country whose constitution requires a referendum on it.

[stevo-08]

What annoys the hell out of me is that we are the only country that is voting on this treaty. If (as all the 'yes-men' say) this is better for democracy in Europe, why the hell aren't the other countries voting for it as well? It's probably because they know bloody well it'd be rejected, like the EU constitution treaty was in France and Holland. I haven't been following the last 7/8 pages of this debate so I don't know if anyone else feels the same as me.

We're the only country whose constitution requires a referendum on it.

But thats just another problem I have with this treaty. It's basically a rehash of the EU constitution which was rejected by the French & Dutch. I just wonder what the results would be if every country had a referendum on it. But sure that'd be too democratic.

[Tankie]

i'm fairly unsure on the whole thing but I think I would Vote Yes instead of NO as all the unions and Main Parties are backing it. I was a strong Yes man at the start but not so much now but as one of the lads sai today - just look who is tell you to vote NO so that should make your mind up for you.

Just don't know anymore!

All the unions are not backing it.

Can you explain to me why those saying No are more or less credible than those saying Yes?

I was diving home today and say a NO poster saying to Vote NO and not give Europe a chance to control our taxes. I think we can all agree that that is pure scaremongering and that is why i think alot of people sitting on the fence will go Yes.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I was diving home today and say a NO poster saying to Vote NO and not give Europe a chance to control our taxes. I think we can all agree that that is pure scaremongering and that is why i think alot of people sitting on the fence will go Yes.

The European Court of Justice will have final say in all such matters, not us, the Irish, in our own jurisdictional parliament. You call it scaremongering, I'd call it a reality-check.

[magickingdom]

I was diving home today and say a NO poster saying to Vote NO and not give Europe a chance to control our taxes. I think we can all agree that that is pure scaremongering and that is why i think alot of people sitting on the fence will go Yes.

The European Court of Justice will have final say in all such matters, not us, the Irish, in our own jurisdictional parliament. You call it scaremongering, I'd call it a reality-check.

the european court of justice will have no say in our taxes. tell me you already knew that and are taking the piss.

[Tankie]

I was diving home today and say a NO poster saying to Vote NO and not give Europe a chance to control our taxes. I think we can all agree that that is pure scaremongering and that is why i think alot of people sitting on the fence will go Yes.

The European Court of Justice will have final say in all such matters, not us, the Irish, in our own jurisdictional parliament. You call it scaremongering, I'd call it a reality-check.

We have a VETO on Taxation! every knows this but the NO try argue that our government may not use it - that has nothing to do with the treaty!

Thats total crap you are taking about the EU Court of Justice being able to force it on us.

[stevo-08]

I was diving home today and say a NO poster saying to Vote NO and not give Europe a chance to control our taxes. I think we can all agree that that is pure scaremongering and that is why i think alot of people sitting on the fence will go Yes.

The European Court of Justice will have final say in all such matters, not us, the Irish, in our own jurisdictional parliament. You call it scaremongering, I'd call it a reality-check.

We have a VETO on Taxation! every knows this but the NO try argue that our government may not use it - that has nothing to do with the treaty!

Thats total crap you are taking about the EU Court of Justice being able to force it on us.

Tankie, The NO camp have agreed that we have a Veto but I think it's only fair for them to point out that a Veto isnt the "Be All, End All" that the Yes camp are making it out to be. This has everything to do with the Treaty. If passed, can you say for certain that at some stage in the future we wont be forced to change our taxes?? I certainly cant.

[Tankie]

I was diving home today and say a NO poster saying to Vote NO and not give Europe a chance to control our taxes. I think we can all agree that that is pure scaremongering and that is why i think alot of people sitting on the fence will go Yes.

The European Court of Justice will have final say in all such matters, not us, the Irish, in our own jurisdictional parliament. You call it scaremongering, I'd call it a reality-check.

We have a VETO on Taxation! every knows this but the NO try argue that our government may not use it - that has nothing to do with the treaty!

Thats total crap you are taking about the EU Court of Justice being able to force it on us.

Tankie, The NO camp have agreed that we have a Veto but I think it's only fair for them to point out that a Veto isnt the "Be All, End All" that the Yes camp are making it out to be. This has everything to do with the Treaty. If passed, can you say for certain that at some stage in the future we wont be forced to change our taxes?? I certainly cant.

What part of a VETO are you missing? if we have a VETO we can say NO to taxation.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

I (unfortunately) don't have a vote in this referendum. But if I had I'd vote yes. Not on the issues of the Treaty per se (although I'd admit that's what we should vote on) but because the EU has been good to this country and I believe that means we have a responsibility to make it work, to allow it to have the positive effect in other European countries that it has had in ours, even though there may be some short term pain involved. Let's sow what we have reaped.

[Zapatista]

the anti nice campaigners told similar lies to the anti lisbon campaigners 'it'll cost you/you will lose money, power, etc  yet 6 years on with the irish economy growing at between 4-6% per year (twice eu average) none of these liars are being asked to explain themselves. your last paragraph is a similar bunch of lies

6 years is a short time in the birth of a Nation. I would say the No to Nice camp where right. We are losing money now (fishermen have no jobs) and with the Lisbon treaty there is a loss of more power. We have US troops in Shannon becuase we allowed it in Nice and we have water charges for schools as enforced from the EU. There is certainly as much evidence to say they were right as there is to say they were wrong.

as someone who would love to see a yes vote its sad to see in todays times poll about 50% of the no voters were in the 'i dont understand it' and 'i dont like being told what to do' category. their reasons for voting no had nothing to do with the treaty but no they were. i think its more a no to politics than europe and with the horseshit coming out of bertie at the mahon tribunal its hard to get people to say yes to anything. that doesnt make it right tho

Not understanding the treaty has everything to do with the treaty. Even more since it was delibertly made difficult to understand.