RG at arms length

[gallsman]

Doesn't appear want to take legal action against ex wife and mother of his children vs prepared to take legal vs sporting organisation.

Pretty easy to imagine how one could happily seek to do one and not the other. Describing it as mind boggling to choose such a path is the two madness here.

[gallsman]

Also you've been adamant that there's no legal avenue RG could pursue that would, as you put it "clear his name" in your eyes, so the fact you find out mind boggling that he's not pursuing such a legal avenue seems a touch disingenuous tbh. You, disingenuous? Never!

[general_lee]

Forget defamation proceedings, was there ever a robust statement released by RG outright denying the allegations? I know if I was completely innocent of something I was accused of, that would be my first course of action.

[tbrick18]

I thought I was very clear on my stance but i'll spell it out for you.

I am not in possession of the facts (neither are you) so how can I (or you) logically form a definitive opinion on if he should or should not be coaching?
What I do know is allegations were made, he was investigated by those with the facts and he wasn't charged with anything.

Ive already outlined my stance on what I think should happen if accused of something, but ill do it again for your benefit. Suspension until investigated within the rules of the organisation. At all times, following process of the rules, not feelings or opinions, facts. Then following the outcome of that investigation, apply the rules of the organisation. to either take action or not. If no rules exist to debar him, he should be allowed to continue.

if the gaa dont want people involved in the association who have allegations made about them then they need to create those rules.

Once again I'll say it, if he's guilty he should be in prison.
But I dont have the facts to find him guilty or innocent. Clear enough for you?

So let me ask you a question, how is it you are so certain RG is guilty?
Its starting to feel like you are somehow involved in the whole affair.

You are not clear and done very little to clear it up. I asked for a simple answer to a numbers of questions that would provide clarity. You have given wishy washy answers that directly contradict themselves.

If you are now using the excuse of ignorance and not being in a position to give an opinion (which you have) then what are you doing in this thread.

Jarlath Burns has given his opinion. He clearly finds the allegations credible and he clearly feels that Gallagher should not be coaching as a result.

The fact you are here angry about that shows you do have an opinion and it's leans in favour of the alleged abuser.

We are not talking about a criminal trial here. People like you are hiding behind criminal convictions and a legal system that consistently fails victims as the barometer here for the GAA. Nobody here is saying Gallagher should be in jail - the threshold will always be high to convict and that's to avoid miscarriages of justice which is understandable to a degree. It is a fact that it fails victims though.

The GAA issue is this simple, it comes down to whethee the GAA belive that allegations could be true. That's the barometer there, if they believe he could have done it then he shouldn't be involved.

The pro-Gallagher/alleged abuser crowd like yourself who ironically then pretend not to be are engaging in bad faith. None of you will comment on whether you think Nicola Gallaghers allegations are credible? You will defend Gallagher and support his right to keep working in the GAA but will no make reference to the victim or the other victims of domestic violence who feel actions need to be taken. The fact you don't address that question means you don't believe or find her allegations credible and I want to find out exactly why?

Why does the bar have to set so high (as in a criminal conviction) to stop someone in operating a role within an amateur organisation?You sound like the type of guy who would have made a great Catholic bishop in the 1960s and 1970s.

Finally why is Gallagher now taking legal action against Burns and the GAA for barring him over allegations made by his ex wife when he has taken no legal action against his ex wife? That for me is the big giveaway.

you ask for a black and white answer and I explained that I cannot give one because I dont have all the information. That's as clear as you're gooing to get I'm afraid.

Why are you so invested here? What is it that has you so convinced she is correct and he's an abuser?

I try to be objective about things and I for one don't believe the vast majority of things written on social media. Just because it seems convincing, and it does, doesn't make it fact. I look at the surrounding events where legal authorities have investigated and not even charged him, which in itself casts doubt on the allegations.

As you say, the legal system fails, a point which I agree with.
It would be very easy to say I think RG is fully innocent and shes a liar due to him not being charged. But, knowing the legal system does get it wrong I'm still erring on the side of caution and saying it could still be true, but I dont know for sure!

The next part you seem to be purposefully ignoring. The gaa do not have the rules to disbar someone due to allegations of something in their private life.
If they do, apply them.
if they dont, make them and apply them.
But, where does that stop? Allegations of criminal behaviour? Actual criminal behaviour? Found guilty in a criminal court? Or just that someone "could" have done what they are accused of? Apply the same rules to all members or just management as you seem to imply? Who would be qualified within the gaa to investigate these allegations fairly?
JB sought to use his position to exert influence when the organisation he is meant to lead doesnt have the rules - thats certainly wrong.

You have said there that if he "could" have done he should be out.
Well technically, you "could" have done it so maybe you should be out too. Its a ridiculous comment to make. Any of us "could" do anything so to follow your rationale all it takes is for someone to make an accusation and they're out.

And for the record, I'm not angry and unlike some of your comments i have not made any personal attacks on you or anyone else. I just dont understand the lack of objectivity some have in cases like this.

You have a very clear view, you think he's guilty because the nature of the allegations are so shocking. You're welcome to your opinion, but you're only looking at one side of the debate and are excluding all other possibilities. 

[gallsman]

Forget defamation proceedings, was there ever a robust statement released by RG outright denying the allegations? I know if I was completely innocent of something I was accused of, that would be my first course of action.

When he threatened the legal action against Burns he said he "categorically denied" the allegations.

[Milltown Row2]

Forget defamation proceedings, was there ever a robust statement released by RG outright denying the allegations? I know if I was completely innocent of something I was accused of, that would be my first course of action.

When he threatened the legal action against Burns he said he "categorically denied" the allegations.

The other thing is costs, have you any idea how much it takes for legal procedures. I know of one friend that is currently paying £500 a month, there will be other additional fees but that is just to keep them, he's currently over two years paying that!

There's clearing your name and then there is being homeless with kids..

As for this one question on credibility of mrs Gallagher's post on fb, it could be true it could be false and maybe the answer could be somewhere in between, I believe she wrote what she felt was true.

I would never though take any post on social media as fully true unless there are other factors which back it up. In this case I've not seen the evidence or other factors, nor do I want to. This family have to live with the constant consequences of whatever happened.

Burns has extended the grief/trauma and taken a role that's not within his remit as I see the GAA president should be doing.

[tiempo]

There's clearing your name and then there is being homeless with kids..

Burns has extended the grief/trauma and taken a role that's not within his remit as I see the GAA president should be doing.

Key points that I agree with

I expect RGs kids are involved in underage GAA, the President has gone on a personal revenge mission against their dad, you'd imagine their view of the GAA doesn't align with the sloganeering Where We All Belong

Game Changer is a tool to beat people with, Jarlath decided RG should be the first offering with no regard for the collateral impact on the family unit

RG provides a layer of protection for his kids, JB with his actions has turned abuser for the want of a moral stand and publicity/optics

[nrico2006]

Wasn't ignored. Is subject to safeguarding checks. Was banned temporarily and ban was overturned. Jarlath decided he should be a poster boy for Game Changer. Keep digging

How and why was the ban overturned. That allegations are still there? What is it about her allegations you don't believe. As long as Gallagher is unable to put these allegations to bed he should be a pariah within the GAA.

Burns shouldn't have had to intervene but a number of clubs disgraced themselves in pursuing and using the services of Gallagher after these allegations surfaced. That's the biggest issue here. What message does that send to victims of domestic violence.

If court wouldn't change your mind, in what way can Gallagher put these to bed?

She has made detailed allegations but they haven't been proven. You ask why people dont find her credible, maybe it's simply that people start from a point of presuming innocence when there has been no history of breaking the law or committing offences. At that point, they are one person's views on an incident(s), that remain her views until they can be proven.

On her allegations, would the family court or other processes RG has went through been privy to NGs medical records to verify the multiple hospital admissions etc?

What age are the children? Are they old enough or eligible to be asked about anything that went on at home to verify her claims? Would this have been part of the aforementioned processes?

So you don't think Nicola Gallaghers claims are credible? I'd like to know what your opinion is there.

If there is any inkling that what she says is true then there is no way Gallagher should be involved in the GAA. There is plenty of precedent of sports stars being pretty much banished as a result of allegations made against them which they were either not charged or proven guilty. These were also professionals.

Gylfi Sigurdsson
Mason Greenwood (English FA)
Paddy Jackson (IRFU)

They were pretty much cancelled if you want to use that word, not on the basis of a conviction or a charge but on the basis of the allegations been very credible and that's the way it should be. What sort of message are you sending to victims when alleged abusers are allowed continue with such credible allegations.

Has Gallagher every actually firmly denied the allegations? I'm not aware he has. All I've seen is him hiding behind statements where he references no charges. Has he ever pursued legal action for defamation? Surely if someone falsely accuses you of something so grievous you do all in your power to clear your name.

Gallaghers approach seems to have been that he will take his time and hope that this blows over and it becomes yesterday's news rather than contest the allegations and clear his name.

Sigurdson and Greenwood were properly subject to procedurally fair investigations and decisions were made.  I dont think Jackson was although I could be wrong but like with Greenwood their non criminal conduct was so reprehensible that even by itself it justified the IRFU's and Ulster Rugby's, FA and Mann Utd's approaches (delete as appropraite).  That reprehensible conduct was never denied by either man.

But they were never proven of doing something.

I really can't stress enough the gravity or what Gallagher has been accused of. Something which I don't actually think I have seen Gallagher explicitly deny or something he hasn't taken legal action although for some reason he is more concerned about suing the GAA over barring him than he is about the person alleging him of these heinous act.

I think Gallagher lacks serious credibility here and given the level of domestic abuse and the list of victims in the north there is no way he should be involved in GAA right now.

At what point do you think he should be barred? A criminal conviction?

We're coming off decades of institutional abuse in the church where people turned a blind eye on allegations and failed to protect victims and shielded the perpetrators. There are many things I disagree with Burns on but I've great respect for his intervention here.

I think it's very disappointing how some people are happy to dismiss these allegations until it's proven certain. This isn't a criminal trial. It's the GAA, it's reputation and it's community role in showing that they take domestic violence seriously and having a profile in the GAA doesn't give you immunity to behave in a certain way.

Yes they were. They were proven that their conduct was reprehensible. It was not established their conduct was criminal but it doesn't have to be. You keep putting weight on RG not taking legal action against his ex wife. What legal action do you think he could take.

To say well there was allegations wrongly ignored by the church therefore we should believe all future allegations made by anyone without question is like me saying that because of the Salem witch trials we shouldn't believe any allegations. It doesn't and can't work like that. All allegations should be taken seriously. They should be investigated as fairly as possible and appropriate and consistent action should be taken.

At what point should he be barred. Once it's established his conduct was reprehensible and/or he presents as a risk to other members of the association. Ie following a proper investigation if that is what is concluded.

I haven't seen a single comment anywhere on this board, from the time the allegations were made until now that dismissed the allegations, or any expressions of hatred against women.

What I have seen is too many people ready to accept a Facebook post as absolute fact, whilst at the same time subsequent legal investigations are ignored by those same people.

Everyone agrees that the allegations are horrific.
Everyone agrees that if true, RG should be in prison.

Where the allegations lose SOME credibility is the fact they were investigated multiple times, by the authorities who will have had access to all information, with no action taken. Rg has refuted the allegations and he has custody of his children. Add to that his ex wife has addiction issues.

None of that means she made it up, but it also doesn't meant its entirely true.

The fact is that none of us know the real story so there is no way we can be sure of being 100% certain we know he did what he is accused of.
So it is unwise, and unsafe to have such certain views without knowing the facts.

Other domestic abuse cases, or lack of prosecutions should have no bearing on this case.

I think a lot of this is due to so many people having a dislike for RG before the allegations were made and so were happy to jump on a bandwagon.

JB seems to have formed a certain conviction and went outside the remit of his position, some would say abused his position, to push an initiative and promote his own agenda with the Facebook warriors.
This was certainly wrong imo.

So what's your stance here. It's very confusing what you're saying.

Can you clarify it for me with a yes/no response.

Do you want Gallagher free to coach or train in the GAA again? Yes/no.

Do you think people accused of allegations to the severity of Gallagher should be allowed continue in the GAA unless they have a conviction? Yes/No.

Do you find Nicola Gallaghers allegations to be credible? Yes/no.

Do you think allowing Gallagher to continue in the GAA with these claims following him around to be an insult to victims of domestic abuse? Yes/no.

I bet you will refuse to answer them and pretend you have no strong opinions while you continue to get exercised about Gallagher not being able to coach while simultaneously showing little concern for a woman who claims to be have been a victim of a decade or so of repeated violent beatings from Gallagher.

I thought I was very clear on my stance but i'll spell it out for you.

I am not in possession of the facts (neither are you) so how can I (or you) logically form a definitive opinion on if he should or should not be coaching?
What I do know is allegations were made, he was investigated by those with the facts and he wasn't charged with anything.

Ive already outlined my stance on what I think should happen if accused of something, but ill do it again for your benefit. Suspension until investigated within the rules of the organisation. At all times, following process of the rules, not feelings or opinions, facts. Then following the outcome of that investigation, apply the rules of the organisation. to either take action or not. If no rules exist to debar him, he should be allowed to continue.

if the gaa dont want people involved in the association who have allegations made about them then they need to create those rules.

Once again I'll say it, if he's guilty he should be in prison.
But I dont have the facts to find him guilty or innocent. Clear enough for you?

So let me ask you a question, how is it you are so certain RG is guilty?
Its starting to feel like you are somehow involved in the whole affair.

'Hand of God,', how are you so certain that he is guilty and why do you find her allegations credible?

[Hand of God]

'Hand of God,', how are you so certain that he is guilty and why do you find her allegations credible?

a) I am not certain he is guilty at all. I never said that. We are not talking about criminal trial here but her side much more credible than Gallagher.

b) 1.I find her credible as to not find her allegations credible you would need to believe she made these allegations up and was trying to destroy someone on the basis of vindictiveness.
2. Gallagher has to my mind never denied the allegations, never taken legal action on horrendous allegations of abuse. To my mind, any innocent person would fight tooth and nail to clear their name of these actions and if they are false to make sure the guilty part faced justice for trying to destroy your life on a lie.
3. The allegations are detailed, specific, numerous and one of them is actually corroborated by another named person - in this case the wife of a former teammate of Gallagher.
4. After the initial allegations came to the surface it more or less seems that this had been known of or at least rumoured/assumed for years locally.
5. Gallagher has consistently hid behind the legal process as his vindication. A system that has consistently failed victims over a decade in a jurisdiction with a horrific domestic violence issue.

Now can you tell me why don't find her allegations credible? And just for clarity - credible is more or less reason to believe there is a good chance what she is saying is true or at least partly true. This isn't a discussion on whether Gallagher should be jailed or convicted - that carries a very high threshold of certainty. This is a discussion on how the GAA deals with issues of serious allegations against its members.

For me the Gallagher one is arguably the most severe I have seen yet. The level of violence and the sustained periods and numerous incidents make it beyond the pale that he should be involved in the GAA for me if there is a remote chance it happened.

I honestly don't know whether he did or didn't do it. I have my opinions on whose story I believe more and the GAA have to apply judgement on this case.

Surely the onus is on the GAA to err on the side of caution in relation to their role as a community organisation and solidarity with domestic violence victims rather than to protect Rory Gallagher because he's one of their own?

[Hand of God]

Forget defamation proceedings, was there ever a robust statement released by RG outright denying the allegations? I know if I was completely innocent of something I was accused of, that would be my first course of action.

Exactly.

It's perplexing why some people think it's normal to take legal action against an amateur organisation for expelling you on the basis of accusations made against you while conversely taking no legal action against the person who made these allegations.

If a false allegation is made against me that so grievous as what has been alleged is, I will do everything in power to clear my name. People who try and destroy some with false allegations of that nature belong in jail and you want that to clear the damage that has been done to yourself.

Gallagher is happy to pay out legal fees for an action against the GAA but doesn't seem willing to take a legal action on clearing his own name.

I simply cannot understand that logic.

[Hand of God]

Forget defamation proceedings, was there ever a robust statement released by RG outright denying the allegations? I know if I was completely innocent of something I was accused of, that would be my first course of action.

When he threatened the legal action against Burns he said he "categorically denied" the allegations.

The other thing is costs, have you any idea how much it takes for legal procedures. I know of one friend that is currently paying £500 a month, there will be other additional fees but that is just to keep them, he's currently over two years paying that!

There's clearing your name and then there is being homeless with kids..

As for this one question on credibility of mrs Gallagher's post on fb, it could be true it could be false and maybe the answer could be somewhere in between, I believe she wrote what she felt was true.

I would never though take any post on social media as fully true unless there are other factors which back it up. In this case I've not seen the evidence or other factors, nor do I want to. This family have to live with the constant consequences of whatever happened.

Burns has extended the grief/trauma and taken a role that's not within his remit as I see the GAA president should be doing.

Nonsensical post. You are talking about Gallagher ending up homeless with kids through taking a legal case against his wife.

He is currently taking a legal action against the GAA. He doesn't seem to be worried about being homeless with kids when it comes to allowing him to be involved in the GAA so it would seem odd that he would if it came to clearing his name.

I feel most normal people would be more worried about not being known as a wife beater than being able to coach a GAA club so why is one the other one taking precedent for Gallagher. What you are saying makes no sense.

This is also a prime example of how opinionated you are on matters you don't know the full ins and outs of.

Strange you still can't offer us an opinion of whether you think Nicola Gallahger's allegations are credible. You'll offer an opinion on pretty much everything else.

I think it's clear now you don't believe but don't tell us why.

[general_lee]

Forget defamation proceedings, was there ever a robust statement released by RG outright denying the allegations? I know if I was completely innocent of something I was accused of, that would be my first course of action.

When he threatened the legal action against Burns he said he "categorically denied" the allegations.

So not his first course of action? He released a statement immediately after the Facebook post but didn't deny the accusations.

[tiempo]

RG was not charged and won custody, probably his aim and doesn't want or need to engage further proceedings with the ex wife

Jarly enters stage left to punch down on behalf of a sports national governing body, RG has the right to proceed as he sees fit

[gallsman]

Forget defamation proceedings, was there ever a robust statement released by RG outright denying the allegations? I know if I was completely innocent of something I was accused of, that would be my first course of action.

When he threatened the legal action against Burns he said he "categorically denied" the allegations.

So not his first course of action? He released a statement immediately after the Facebook post but didn't deny the accusations.

He said the allegations had been "investigated and dealt with" from what I recall.

I have my doubts about RG as much as the next man but this apparent attitude of "sure he didn't even come out and flatly deny it immediately, isn't that really incriminating?!" is very, very dangerous.

[Milltown Row2]

Forget defamation proceedings, was there ever a robust statement released by RG outright denying the allegations? I know if I was completely innocent of something I was accused of, that would be my first course of action.

When he threatened the legal action against Burns he said he "categorically denied" the allegations.

The other thing is costs, have you any idea how much it takes for legal procedures. I know of one friend that is currently paying £500 a month, there will be other additional fees but that is just to keep them, he's currently over two years paying that!

There's clearing your name and then there is being homeless with kids..

As for this one question on credibility of mrs Gallagher's post on fb, it could be true it could be false and maybe the answer could be somewhere in between, I believe she wrote what she felt was true.

I would never though take any post on social media as fully true unless there are other factors which back it up. In this case I've not seen the evidence or other factors, nor do I want to. This family have to live with the constant consequences of whatever happened.

Burns has extended the grief/trauma and taken a role that's not within his remit as I see the GAA president should be doing.

Nonsensical post. You are talking about Gallagher ending up homeless with kids through taking a legal case against his wife.

He is currently taking a legal action against the GAA. He doesn't seem to be worried about being homeless with kids when it comes to allowing him to be involved in the GAA so it would seem odd that he would if it came to clearing his name.

I feel most normal people would be more worried about not being known as a wife beater than being able to coach a GAA club so why is one the other one taking precedent for Gallagher. What you are saying makes no sense.

This is also a prime example of how opinionated you are on matters you don't know the full ins and outs of.

Strange you still can't offer us an opinion of whether you think Nicola Gallahger's allegations are credible. You'll offer an opinion on pretty much everything else.

I think it's clear now you don't believe but don't tell us why.

Claiming I don't know the ins and outs while claiming you don't?!

There's daft then there is hand of god!