Russia invades Ukraine Feb 2022

[seafoid]

Zelensky's right hand man has got the road over corruption allegations. Russia is totally in the wrong but Ukraine (government) are a shower of crooks.

It's the ordinary civilians in Ukraine and the soldiers Putin is using as cannon fodder who'll bear the brunt as per.   

Do you know of many governments that aren't corrupt?

Where there are people, there will be corruption.But there is a huge difference between Russia and the Nordic countries or Switzerland.

Ukraine has to work on corruption and rule of law in order to join the EU.

[seafoid]

https://www.ft.com/content/3c23910f-795c-4151-a47c-db4f0137fb40

Brussels has proposed a legally contentious workaround to raise up to €210bn for Ukraine backed by immobilised Russian state assets, including emergency powers that in effect strip Hungary and other dissenting countries of their veto. The proposal, which would mark a watershed moment for the EU by enabling sanctions to be imposed without unanimity, is a last-ditch attempt to ensure Kyiv's economic survival by bypassing potential opposition from Russia-friendly countries such as Hungary or Slovakia. The "reparations loan" would leverage up to €210bn of Russian assets immobilised by EU sanctions to fund Kyiv, which would not have to repay the loan until Russia pays reparations. EU countries would have to back the loan with national guarantees.


"Europe will remain [Ukraine's] strongest and most steadfast partner . . . we can equip them with the means to defend themselves and lead peace negotiations from a position of strength," said European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen. "The message to Russia is that the reparations loan is increasing the cost of war for Russia and invites Russia to the negotiating table to finally find peace," she added. Ursula von der Leyen said: 'Europe will remain [Ukraine's] strongest and most steadfast partner . . . we can equip them with the means to defend themselves' © Simon Wohlfahrt/Bloomberg The commission's proposal would attempt to lock Russian assets in the EU indefinitely through emergency powers. The legal measure aims to override countries such as Hungary potentially using a national veto on the rollover of sanctions, which expire every six months. The commission proposal would "prohibit, on a temporary basis, any direct or indirect transfer to or for the benefit of the Central Bank of Russia". Such restrictions, which mimic sanctions by ensuring Russian central bank assets remain immobilised in the EU, are justified as being "urgently required to limit the damage to the Union's economy". The extraordinary measures aim to overcome the main reservations of Belgium, which has vehemently opposed the plan because it fears being left on the hook as a result of most of the assets being held at Brussels-based central securities depository Euroclear. Belgium is worried it would have to repay the loan if the sanctions were lifted and the assets unfrozen, or in the event of a peace deal without agreement on reparations.

[Main Street]

PBP  statement at the time of Zelensky's Dail visit,

called "Putin's brutal invasion".

But it added 'that it had always rejected the idea of a military solution to this conflict and had opposed calls for military escalation'.

I take it that the super brains at PBP opine that defending your country from "Putin's brutal invasion" is a "military escalation"?
What else  do the PBP propose how a country can defend itself against such a "brutal invasion" other than by all military means at their disposal? And what do the PBP propose that Ukraine do instead of military action to defend itself against this "brutal invasion"?  sit down on the road holding sunflowers? or just surrender wholesale  to the demands of the "brutal invader"?
Possibly the PBP have the idea that the countries that support Ukraine should non-violently sanction the crap out of the "brutal invading" Russia, grab all their EU banked assets, block their floating potential toxic discharge  ships from sailing the oceans and do all within their means to scuttle Russia's economy in order to get them to back off Ukraine?

But will we ever know what the PBP actually have in mind to stop this "brutal invasion"?  What is this unspoken plan that the PBP have, apart from a vague bumper sticker slogan?

It's an odd thing for you to contend. Here's a serious question that will seriously undermine your credibility and the point you make. The people in Irish politics who are fanatics for Ukrainian militarism, the journalists from the mainstream media who are fanatical for Ukrainian militarism were some of the biggest advocates for doing nothing during sectarian pogroms in the north. Indeed the leader in the 26 went on live TV during the last general election and wholly blamed the IRA for the trouble.

This is where people like you badly let yourselves down. Your past positions show your current stance on Ukraine to be a phony one. It's nothing to do with invasions or imperialism or freedoms, you just think the West has the right to rule the world.

It will be interesting to see how outraged you get about the forthcoming happenings in Venezuela. The yanks up to their usual tricks again and it's not the first time in Venezuela yet you'll still probably deny they played a major role in destabilizing Ukraine and setting the motions in play for a change to a Western aligned gov which they knew would provoke Russia.

People should be aware that what has happened in Ukraine is a proxy war between two imperialist superpowers - Russia and the US - who are fervently supported by the EU/UK. The Ukrainians are the unfortunate victims in it all.

It's incredible that people can say with very valid grounds that say the Russians are an imperialist superpower, who have a dictator who should be trialled in the Hague as leader and who have committed war crimes in Ukraine yet still be accused of being pro Russian all because you are critical of the West and the US involvement in creating and throwing accelerant on a war in Ukraine.

The level of shilling and smear neo libs get involved in to deflect the role of the West in this conflict is mind-blowing.

So you are offering absolutely nothing to the question about what PBP opine as a response to in their words "Putin's brutal invasion", except irrelevant drivel.


 

[PadraicHenryPearse]

main street, how will the war end?

Russian collapse, you have being posting about this for 3 years, a change of US president? Dems gave up Crimea, not done enough for Ukraine when in power or Europe step up, again not done enough..  and how long more will it take for these to happen and how long more can Ukraine keep fighting without support needed to win a war.

negotiating from a position of strength is about 3 years old now too..

[seafoid]

main street, how will the war end?

Russian collapse, you have being posting about this for 3 years, a change of US president? Dems gave up Crimea, not done enough for Ukraine when in power or Europe step up, again not done enough..  and how long more will it take for these to happen and how long more can Ukraine keep fighting without support needed to win a war.

negotiating from a position of strength is about 3 years old now too..

The loan on Russian assets held in Belgium will fund Ukraine for 3 years. Sanctions on oil will hit Russia. Oil has funded the Russian war machine. Countries such as India have joined in. A combination of a strong Ukraine and a weakened Russia should move things on.

[Banks of the Bann]

main street, how will the war end?

Russian collapse, you have being posting about this for 3 years, a change of US president? Dems gave up Crimea, not done enough for Ukraine when in power or Europe step up, again not done enough..  and how long more will it take for these to happen and how long more can Ukraine keep fighting without support needed to win a war.

negotiating from a position of strength is about 3 years old now too..

It's really quite amazing that after everything Russia has done and said these past almost 4 years you still don't get it.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

maybe main street can answer

[Milltown Row2]

It ends like most wars, the weak generally concedes lose land, people, displacement

Sounds familiar?

[Hand of God]

PBP  statement at the time of Zelensky's Dail visit,

called "Putin's brutal invasion".

But it added 'that it had always rejected the idea of a military solution to this conflict and had opposed calls for military escalation'.

I take it that the super brains at PBP opine that defending your country from "Putin's brutal invasion" is a "military escalation"?
What else  do the PBP propose how a country can defend itself against such a "brutal invasion" other than by all military means at their disposal? And what do the PBP propose that Ukraine do instead of military action to defend itself against this "brutal invasion"?  sit down on the road holding sunflowers? or just surrender wholesale  to the demands of the "brutal invader"?
Possibly the PBP have the idea that the countries that support Ukraine should non-violently sanction the crap out of the "brutal invading" Russia, grab all their EU banked assets, block their floating potential toxic discharge  ships from sailing the oceans and do all within their means to scuttle Russia's economy in order to get them to back off Ukraine?

But will we ever know what the PBP actually have in mind to stop this "brutal invasion"?  What is this unspoken plan that the PBP have, apart from a vague bumper sticker slogan?

It's an odd thing for you to contend. Here's a serious question that will seriously undermine your credibility and the point you make. The people in Irish politics who are fanatics for Ukrainian militarism, the journalists from the mainstream media who are fanatical for Ukrainian militarism were some of the biggest advocates for doing nothing during sectarian pogroms in the north. Indeed the leader in the 26 went on live TV during the last general election and wholly blamed the IRA for the trouble.

This is where people like you badly let yourselves down. Your past positions show your current stance on Ukraine to be a phony one. It's nothing to do with invasions or imperialism or freedoms, you just think the West has the right to rule the world.

It will be interesting to see how outraged you get about the forthcoming happenings in Venezuela. The yanks up to their usual tricks again and it's not the first time in Venezuela yet you'll still probably deny they played a major role in destabilizing Ukraine and setting the motions in play for a change to a Western aligned gov which they knew would provoke Russia.

People should be aware that what has happened in Ukraine is a proxy war between two imperialist superpowers - Russia and the US - who are fervently supported by the EU/UK. The Ukrainians are the unfortunate victims in it all.

It's incredible that people can say with very valid grounds that say the Russians are an imperialist superpower, who have a dictator who should be trialled in the Hague as leader and who have committed war crimes in Ukraine yet still be accused of being pro Russian all because you are critical of the West and the US involvement in creating and throwing accelerant on a war in Ukraine.

The level of shilling and smear neo libs get involved in to deflect the role of the West in this conflict is mind-blowing.

So you are offering absolutely nothing to the question about what PBP opine as a response to in their words "Putin's brutal invasion", except irrelevant drivel.


 

Excuse me but you are a complete and utter hypocrite and you engage in bad faith. You won't address your contradictions which have been exposed and then you have ignored them.

You are expressing faux outrage. You do not care for Ukranians and you do not care for justice or peace. To cynically try and exploit those people for your own political agenda is quite disgusting.

I'll show the forum how big a hypocrite you are. You are ranting on about PBP not salivating over Zelensky who is certainly dubious in many respects.

Can you show us a post you made where you were horrified about Micheal Martin going over to Israel amidst a genocide, pointing at holes in a ceiling and shaking the hand of a war criminal?

Can you show us a post where you expressed revulsion at MM and his party hosting the ambassador of a state committing war crimes and perpetuating a genocide at his annual party conference?

Can you show us your disgust at the Irish govt consistently delaying and watering down the OTB from coming into being when they had sanctions on Russia almost immediately.

You don't have a backbone, you don't have any point of principle here. You are a disgraceful propagandist of imperialism and western supremacy

[Hand of God]

So once again you just ignore everything that refutes the argument you're attempting to make and move the conversation along to more bullshit.

The most cynical thing about tankies is that they dress up their support of Russia as concern for Ukrainians. Utter ghouls, the lot of them.

As long as the Ukrainian people want to stand up to Russia, I will support them. As for any Ukrainian who doesn't want to fight, I don't blame them either, but at least I do know who to blame, that has pushed Ukraine to such desperate measures.

As for going to the frontlines, yeah, thats's another tankie favourite, as if you can't support the right of a nation to fight annihilation without picking up a rifle yourself.

Interestingly it's usually a certain type of pro-Palestinian that uses this argument, despite the irony being that haven't set foot in the West Bank or Gaza in their lives. Or done anything to help Palestine other than slabber online. Someone else put it perfectly on this board elsewhere, 'mouthy c*nt', I think the expression was. HoG fits the description perfectly.

You can call me a "mouthy ****" all you want. You're the ethno supremacist fascist here and a cowardly one at that. Why don't you go out your life on the line for Ukraine rather than demanding the lives of innocents are given up because the US and Western states want to have their puppets in charge.

You are sounding like a unhinged conspiracy theorist with the incessant propaganda and smears you spread.

[Banks of the Bann]

Some simple truths:

Russia's goal in this war is the destruction of Ukraine as a sovereign, independent state.

Russia has not changed their goal despite the  war turning into a disaster for them.

They won't accept any agreement that will make this goal more difficult/impossible in the future.

They will accept an 'agreement' that leaves Ukraine a sitting duck.

Security assurances for Ukraine on paper are worthless.

Whatever is agreed, if anything, will be broken by Russia at some point in the future.

[Banks of the Bann]

So once again you just ignore everything that refutes the argument you're attempting to make and move the conversation along to more bullshit.

The most cynical thing about tankies is that they dress up their support of Russia as concern for Ukrainians. Utter ghouls, the lot of them.

As long as the Ukrainian people want to stand up to Russia, I will support them. As for any Ukrainian who doesn't want to fight, I don't blame them either, but at least I do know who to blame, that has pushed Ukraine to such desperate measures.

As for going to the frontlines, yeah, thats's another tankie favourite, as if you can't support the right of a nation to fight annihilation without picking up a rifle yourself.

Interestingly it's usually a certain type of pro-Palestinian that uses this argument, despite the irony being that haven't set foot in the West Bank or Gaza in their lives. Or done anything to help Palestine other than slabber online. Someone else put it perfectly on this board elsewhere, 'mouthy c*nt', I think the expression was. HoG fits the description perfectly.

You can call me a "mouthy ****" all you want. You're the ethno supremacist fascist here and a cowardly one at that. Why don't you go out your life on the line for Ukraine rather than demanding the lives of innocents are given up because the US and Western states want to have their puppets in charge.

You are sounding like a unhinged conspiracy theorist with the incessant propaganda and smears you spread.

I have demanded nothing.

Ukraine has never asked for others to go and fight for them, they have only ever asked for support, which I have given.

You have given your support to child murdering, rapist Russia. You don't care about dead civilians in Ukraine  or anywhere else.

You're no better than a flag-waving Zionist.

You leech off Palestininan suffering to feed your anti-western ideology.

[seafoid]

Some simple truths:

Russia's goal in this war is the destruction of Ukraine as a sovereign, independent state.

Russia has not changed their goal despite the  war turning into a disaster for them.

They won't accept any agreement that will make this goal more difficult/impossible in the future.

They will accept an 'agreement' that leaves Ukraine a sitting duck.

Security assurances for Ukraine on paper are worthless.

Whatever is agreed, if anything, will be broken by Russia at some point in the future.

You could add that Ukraine is just the start. Putin wants to recreate the Soviet Union.

[Genocide Organ]

You could add that Ukraine is just the start. Putin wants to recreate the Soviet Union.
[/quote]

I don't buy that - at all. Where's the evidence?

Meanwhile, EU wants an army so pushes that narrative.

[Armagh18]

You could add that Ukraine is just the start. Putin wants to recreate the Soviet Union.

I don't buy that - at all. Where's the evidence?

Meanwhile, EU wants an army so pushes that narrative.
[/quote] Would it be surprising if he tried for more if he got Ukraine?