Tyrone County Football and Hurling

[Tyrone Dreamer]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

[southtyronegael]

sure we cant beat mayo or kerry either and im sure we have a similar population and resources. not sure what u tryin to say.

[SkillfulBill]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available.  I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

[Club boi]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

Tell us about underage in your own club stg, who has broke through the ranks and came onto the tyrone panel in the last few years? Because from the outside looking in, underage in tyrone is not as healthy as it is portrayed.

The problem is simple and again I will reiterate what is it, we have about 100 footballers of the same calibre in tyrone. We dont have a brian dooher, stephen o neill, peter canavan type player, to name but a few. To prove my point how many tyrone players on the current panel would have got on in 2003/2005??

impossible to compare 03/05 team with now. one team was allowed to play football and show how good they could be, the other isnt. we are still delivering all irelands at underage, 2015 u21s and 2017 under 17s so must be doing something right although im not sure if its the acadamies or the clubs delivering this. i suspect its the clubs.

so your telling me its the same manager who in 2003 allowed players to play but in 2018 isnt allowing the players to play? Catch yourself on man and realise that its because of the class of footballers we have now on the county panel that we are currently 4th- 8th in Ireland on our day.

Yes that's what we're saying. No other manager in Ireland would've been allowed to continue with the last 10 years

And before you's start, I have on record praised Harte in the past, unfortunately he is on the verge of ruining his legacy

[BennyHarp]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available. I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

Just out of interest, of our starting 15, who (maybe bar Colm C) would you have on the Dublin starting team and who would you drop for him?

[Therealdonald]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available. I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

Just out of interest, of our starting 15, who (maybe bar Colm C) would you have on the Dublin starting team and who would you drop for him?

Are you suggesting that Colm C would make the Dublin team?

[SkillfulBill]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available. I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

Just out of interest, of our starting 15, who (maybe bar Colm C) would you have on the Dublin starting team and who would you drop for him?

Benny the truth of the matter is that not one of the current Tyrone senior squad would make the current Dublin team.

Let me ask you this.... Why is it that young Tyrone players who had the skills at youth levels to compete with and beat the best are incapable of developing into senior players who are as good as the best in Ireland....and who is responsible for our lack of ability to develop these players ?

[bigtogs]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available. I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

Just out of interest, of our starting 15, who (maybe bar Colm C) would you have on the Dublin starting team and who would you drop for him?

Benny the truth of the matter is that not one of the current Tyrone senior squad would make the current Dublin team.

Let me ask you this.... Why is it that young Tyrone players who had the skills at youth levels to compete with and beat the best are incapable of developing into senior players who are as good as the best in Ireland....and who is responsible for our lack of ability to develop these players ?

When can you get the answer to that question we may get the cure....

[BennyHarp]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available. I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

Just out of interest, of our starting 15, who (maybe bar Colm C) would you have on the Dublin starting team and who would you drop for him?

Are you suggesting that Colm C would make the Dublin team?

Possibly - current all star. Might have a chance if McCarthy shifted back.

[SkillfulBill]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available. I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

Just out of interest, of our starting 15, who (maybe bar Colm C) would you have on the Dublin starting team and who would you drop for him?

Are you suggesting that Colm C would make the Dublin team?

Possibly - current all star. Might have a chance if McCarthy shifted back.

Possibly but you still have not given me any ideas as to what could be happening to our players when the move into the senior ranks. I will open the question out to the rest of the posters on here. Any with possible theories to our inability to develop our players beyond youth level ?

[BennyHarp]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available. I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

Just out of interest, of our starting 15, who (maybe bar Colm C) would you have on the Dublin starting team and who would you drop for him?

Benny the truth of the matter is that not one of the current Tyrone senior squad would make the current Dublin team.

Let me ask you this.... Why is it that young Tyrone players who had the skills at youth levels to compete with and beat the best are incapable of developing into senior players who are as good as the best in Ireland....and who is responsible for our lack of ability to develop these players ?

There's a million and one reasons for this but I'd doubt if the reason is solely one man. Until 2015 we were very poor at U21 level and hadn't reached an AI final since 2003, so the question might be what is happening between minor and U21. The fact of the matter is that everyone is struggling to keep pace with Dublin. My take on things are that 3 or 4 years ago Mickey realised that we were never going to beat Dublin man to man after a few thumping at their hands in big games, (it was interesting to hear Enda McGinley say that the Dubs were the first team they came across to actually retreat and concede every kick out) and Mickey devised a game plan, based on the Donegal system (which had success against Dublin) that was designed to make us competitive against them. Unfortunately when it came to the crunch, Dublin just were too good and had us completely sussed and to be honest made us look foolish and out dated. I don't criticise Harte for his game plan - I understand his reasoning (even though, believe or not it frustrates the hell out of me to watch it at times) but I would criticise the inability to implement a plan B or C when plan A didn't work. Surely we should have known Dublin were prepared for plan A? Anyway, I think Mickey, more than anyone knows that his game plan was flawed against the top teams now - we could have papered over the Kerry and Mayo defeats by talking about key scores missed at crucial times, Bradley's and Skeet's goal chances v Kerry or McCurry's point attempt v Mayo or poor reffing decisions, McNulty's penalty decision v Kerry. But the Dublin game showed our limitations. Mickey knows it and I think that is partly why he was so prickly with Sidebottom and he isn't the type to admit his failings on national TV. So in answer to the question, I don't know why we don't have the players we had a few years ago - maybe it was just a once in a lifetime team and we are finding our level or maybe Mickey is the sole reason why we can't beat Mayo, Kerry and Dublin, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt again to see if by championship time we have a tweaked system which at least might make us, if not more competitive, at least better to watch.

[bigtogs]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available. I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

Just out of interest, of our starting 15, who (maybe bar Colm C) would you have on the Dublin starting team and who would you drop for him?

Benny the truth of the matter is that not one of the current Tyrone senior squad would make the current Dublin team.

Let me ask you this.... Why is it that young Tyrone players who had the skills at youth levels to compete with and beat the best are incapable of developing into senior players who are as good as the best in Ireland....and who is responsible for our lack of ability to develop these players ?

There's a million and one reasons for this but I'd doubt if the reason is solely one man. Until 2015 we were very poor at U21 level and hadn't reached an AI final since 2003, so the question might be what is happening between minor and U21. The fact of the matter is that everyone is struggling to keep pace with Dublin. My take on things are that 3 or 4 years ago Mickey realised that we were never going to beat Dublin man to man after a few thumping at their hands in big games, (it was interesting to hear Enda McGinley say that the Dubs were the first team they came across to actually retreat and concede every kick out) and Mickey devised a game plan, based on the Donegal system (which had success against Dublin) that was designed to make us competitive against them. Unfortunately when it came to the crunch, Dublin just were too good and had us completely sussed and to be honest made us look foolish and out dated. I don't criticise Harte for his game plan - I understand his reasoning (even though, believe or not it frustrates the hell out of me to watch it at times) but I would criticise the inability to implement a plan B or C when plan A didn't work. Surely we should have known Dublin were prepared for plan A? Anyway, I think Mickey, more than anyone knows that his game plan was flawed against the top teams now - we could have papered over the Kerry and Mayo defeats by talking about key scores missed at crucial times, Bradley's and Skeet's goal chances v Kerry or McCurry's point attempt v Mayo or poor reffing decisions, McNulty's penalty decision v Kerry. But the Dublin game showed our limitations. Mickey knows it and I think that is partly why he was so prickly with Sidebottom and he isn't the type to admit his failings on national TV. So in answer to the question, I don't know why we don't have the players we had a few years ago - maybe it was just a once in a lifetime team and we are finding our level or maybe Mickey is the sole reason why we can't beat Mayo, Kerry and Dublin, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt again to see if by championship time we have a tweaked system which at least might make us, if not more competitive, at least better to watch.

Sensible enough post.... We cant deny people are getting a little fed up with Mickey....where it is true or not true i dont know.... Mickey seems to have fingers in a lot of pies ie...sponsorship dilemma, fixture changes at short notice, Rte and puke football....

[southtyronegael]

all the more reason to get rid of him. what have we got to lose at this stage? even if we didnt get any all ireland finals it would be nice to watch a bit of decent football and id love to start going to games again.

[SkillfulBill]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available. I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

Just out of interest, of our starting 15, who (maybe bar Colm C) would you have on the Dublin starting team and who would you drop for him?

Benny the truth of the matter is that not one of the current Tyrone senior squad would make the current Dublin team.

Let me ask you this.... Why is it that young Tyrone players who had the skills at youth levels to compete with and beat the best are incapable of developing into senior players who are as good as the best in Ireland....and who is responsible for our lack of ability to develop these players ?

There's a million and one reasons for this but I'd doubt if the reason is solely one man. Until 2015 we were very poor at U21 level and hadn't reached an AI final since 2003, so the question might be what is happening between minor and U21. The fact of the matter is that everyone is struggling to keep pace with Dublin. My take on things are that 3 or 4 years ago Mickey realised that we were never going to beat Dublin man to man after a few thumping at their hands in big games, (it was interesting to hear Enda McGinley say that the Dubs were the first team they came across to actually retreat and concede every kick out) and Mickey devised a game plan, based on the Donegal system (which had success against Dublin) that was designed to make us competitive against them. Unfortunately when it came to the crunch, Dublin just were too good and had us completely sussed and to be honest made us look foolish and out dated. I don't criticise Harte for his game plan - I understand his reasoning (even though, believe or not it frustrates the hell out of me to watch it at times) but I would criticise the inability to implement a plan B or C when plan A didn't work. Surely we should have known Dublin were prepared for plan A? Anyway, I think Mickey, more than anyone knows that his game plan was flawed against the top teams now - we could have papered over the Kerry and Mayo defeats by talking about key scores missed at crucial times, Bradley's and Skeet's goal chances v Kerry or McCurry's point attempt v Mayo or poor reffing decisions, McNulty's penalty decision v Kerry. But the Dublin game showed our limitations. Mickey knows it and I think that is partly why he was so prickly with Sidebottom and he isn't the type to admit his failings on national TV. So in answer to the question, I don't know why we don't have the players we had a few years ago - maybe it was just a once in a lifetime team and we are finding our level or maybe Mickey is the sole reason why we can't beat Mayo, Kerry and Dublin, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt again to see if by championship time we have a tweaked system which at least might make us, if not more competitive, at least better to watch.

Benny that is a very well thought out and rational post to my question and I suspect you do know the reason as to our lack of ability to allow these players reaching their full potential. I think you do Mickey a disservice by under estimating one man's ability to influence the direction of Tyrone football over the last Ten years. One man is solely responsible for the tactics and style of play that Tyrone has developed. There has only been one constant in the set up and the buck does stop with the manager. I have no doubt had Tyrone been at the top of the pile over the period and developed our players to their full potential then the County manager would have been rightfully lauded for it. I admire the fact that you continue to have faith in Mickey but I and many like me no longer believe in him. last year's pathetic surrender in croke park was the final straw and our Division 1 campaign to date is further evidence.

[Club boi]

i dont believe a county the size of tyrone with all they underage structures and quality club football should be happy just winning ulsters.

We have only a fraction of the population of Dublin, less playing numbers, less money, don't get to play all our games at home (saving money and helping with familiarity), much less u21 success in recent years which is more relevant than minor and we don't have multiple clubs winning and competing for provincial and all ireland club titles that they have. So under what logic should we be expecting to win All Ireland's ahead of them?

That is some nonsense we didn't have any provincial and all ireland club success when we where winning all Ireland's. There is no connection between clubs success at provincial or all ireland level and county success of if there was Armagh Derry would have many more all ireland senior titles than 1. This is typical of the drivel on this board. Fact is having a competitive club scene is a plus for county as it means you have a wider pick of talent available. I don't buy this nonsense that Tyrone don't have the footballers the problem is the negative diatribe that the county senior management has inflicted on the county for 10 years which has seeped into the youth structures and club scene. The Mickey excusers on this board make me laugh with their inability to front up and admit the king has no clothes. Fools.

Just out of interest, of our starting 15, who (maybe bar Colm C) would you have on the Dublin starting team and who would you drop for him?

Benny the truth of the matter is that not one of the current Tyrone senior squad would make the current Dublin team.

Let me ask you this.... Why is it that young Tyrone players who had the skills at youth levels to compete with and beat the best are incapable of developing into senior players who are as good as the best in Ireland....and who is responsible for our lack of ability to develop these players ?

There's a million and one reasons for this but I'd doubt if the reason is solely one man. Until 2015 we were very poor at U21 level and hadn't reached an AI final since 2003, so the question might be what is happening between minor and U21. The fact of the matter is that everyone is struggling to keep pace with Dublin. My take on things are that 3 or 4 years ago Mickey realised that we were never going to beat Dublin man to man after a few thumping at their hands in big games, (it was interesting to hear Enda McGinley say that the Dubs were the first team they came across to actually retreat and concede every kick out) and Mickey devised a game plan, based on the Donegal system (which had success against Dublin) that was designed to make us competitive against them. Unfortunately when it came to the crunch, Dublin just were too good and had us completely sussed and to be honest made us look foolish and out dated. I don't criticise Harte for his game plan - I understand his reasoning (even though, believe or not it frustrates the hell out of me to watch it at times) but I would criticise the inability to implement a plan B or C when plan A didn't work. Surely we should have known Dublin were prepared for plan A? Anyway, I think Mickey, more than anyone knows that his game plan was flawed against the top teams now - we could have papered over the Kerry and Mayo defeats by talking about key scores missed at crucial times, Bradley's and Skeet's goal chances v Kerry or McCurry's point attempt v Mayo or poor reffing decisions, McNulty's penalty decision v Kerry. But the Dublin game showed our limitations. Mickey knows it and I think that is partly why he was so prickly with Sidebottom and he isn't the type to admit his failings on national TV. So in answer to the question, I don't know why we don't have the players we had a few years ago - maybe it was just a once in a lifetime team and we are finding our level or maybe Mickey is the sole reason why we can't beat Mayo, Kerry and Dublin, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt again to see if by championship time we have a tweaked system which at least might make us, if not more competitive, at least better to watch.

Benny that is a very well thought out and rational post to my question and I suspect you do know the reason as to our lack of ability to allow these players reaching their full potential. I think you do Mickey a disservice by under estimating one man's ability to influence the direction of Tyrone football over the last Ten years. One man is solely responsible for the tactics and style of play that Tyrone has developed. There has only been one constant in the set up and the buck does stop with the manager. I have no doubt had Tyrone been at the top of the pile over the period and developed our players to their full potential then the County manager would have been rightfully lauded for it. I admire the fact that you continue to have faith in Mickey but I and many like me no longer believe in him. last year's pathetic surrender in croke park was the final straw and our Division 1 campaign to date is further evidence.

+ 1 SkillfulBill