Margaret Thatcher....

[LCohen]

Now lads could you not re-read your posts there and address some of the glaring errors?

The idea that partition was anti-democratic is absurd. There was a clear majority in a geographically contained area against separation from UK. That democratic expression was recognised in the settlement. Democracy at work

An international border was redrawn to reflect democracy suddenly gets called a "false political entity" - grow up. Must Yugoslavia be re-united against the democratic wishes of its people(s)?

The abuses of people brought about by both Democratic majority in NI and the British government are shameful. However they can only be used to justify the creation or actions of the modern provos if the actions of the provos could be said to have addressed those abuses. Explain to me how the bombings in Warrington, Omagh, Coleraine, Portadown (this list can go on and on) relieved the oppression of Catholics or achieved a United Ireland? They didn't and they couldn't. They were murders and attempts at murder and their perpetrators murderers. Somehow I am being told this is hypocrisy and a re-writing of history. Anyone care to explain how? 

Thatcher's contribution to the GFA ia a myth. I have  never argued otherwise.

[Nally Stand]

Now lads could you not re-read your posts there and address some of the glaring errors?

The idea that partition was anti-democratic is absurd. There was a clear majority in a geographically contained area against separation from UK. That democratic expression was recognised in the settlement. Democracy at work

An international border was redrawn to reflect democracy suddenly gets called a "false political entity" - grow up. Must Yugoslavia be re-united against the democratic wishes of its people(s)?

The abuses of people brought about by both Democratic majority in NI and the British government are shameful. However they can only be used to justify the creation or actions of the modern provos if the actions of the provos could be said to have addressed those abuses. Explain to me how the bombings in Warrington, Omagh, Coleraine, Portadown (this list can go on and on) relieved the oppression of Catholics or achieved a United Ireland? They didn't and they couldn't. They were murders and attempts at murder and their perpetrators murderers. Somehow I am being told this is hypocrisy and a re-writing of history. Anyone care to explain how? 

Thatcher's contribution to the GFA ia a myth. I have  never argued otherwise.

I'll repeat my questions:

1. Bearing in mind the conditions which Catholics in this newly created sectarian state lived in were a hell of a lot worse than in the south leading up to the tan war, how do you suggest it could have resolved itself?

2. Bearing in mind that the first british soldier killed (Hugh McCabe in 1969) was killed by the RUC, and that the first RUC officer to be killed (Constable William Arbuckle) was killed by loyalists, and that the first sectarian killings (of John Scullion and Peter Ward) were carried out by the UVF; and that the first bombings (in 1969) were carried out by loyalists and that the first of almost a thousand state killings (of Sammy Devenney, in front of his family; and of nine-year-old Patrick Rooney) were carried out by the RUC...and bearing in mind that the biggest population shift in Europe since the Second World War was of Catholics fleeing across the border for safety in the wake of the sectarian pogroms, why the do you think the IRA came to be?!!

I'll throw in another for good measure:

3. Do you expect to be taken seriously by using specific examples like Warrington to typify the entire IRA campaign?

P.s. Describing the conditions faced by Catholics as "shameful" but offering no reasoned alternative to the IRA campaign, sort of suggests an attitude of "yes you had it bad, but sorry, you should have just bent over and taken it."


As for the sectarian state being "democratic", I suggest it was about as democratic as the occupation of the whole of Ireland was. I wonder, if it was so democratic, why the entire population of Ireland never were allowed to vote on it as a unit. Hmmmm.

[Zulu]

Now lads could you not re-read your posts there and address some of the glaring errors?

The idea that partition was anti-democratic is absurd. There was a clear majority in a geographically contained area against separation from UK. That democratic expression was recognised in the settlement. Democracy at work

An international border was redrawn to reflect democracy suddenly gets called a "false political entity" - grow up. Must Yugoslavia be re-united against the democratic wishes of its people(s)?

The abuses of people brought about by both Democratic majority in NI and the British government are shameful. However they can only be used to justify the creation or actions of the modern provos if the actions of the provos could be said to have addressed those abuses. Explain to me how the bombings in Warrington, Omagh, Coleraine, Portadown (this list can go on and on) relieved the oppression of Catholics or achieved a United Ireland? They didn't and they couldn't. They were murders and attempts at murder and their perpetrators murderers. Somehow I am being told this is hypocrisy and a re-writing of history. Anyone care to explain how? 

Thatcher's contribution to the GFA ia a myth. I have  never argued otherwise.

That's an astonishing view. Ireland and Yugoslavia are entirely different situations. The island of Ireland was never a country of differing cultures or political identities until England displaced people from their lands and imposed a group of non-Irish people onto the land. The fact that their descendants want to remain part of Britain doesn't mean any part of the island of Ireland is anything other than Irish. To divide the island is certainly not democracy at work.

[Rossfan]

Now lads could you not re-read your posts there and address some of the glaring errors?

The idea that partition was anti-democratic is absurd. There was a clear majority in a geographically contained area against separation from UK. That democratic expression was recognised in the settlement. Democracy at work

Why then , genius, did "Democracy at work" not apply to the majority of people of Tyrone and Fermanagh ( 2 very "geographically contained areas" - whatever that might mean)?
Not to mention - Derry City, South Down, South Armagh.
Anyway the majority of the very geographically contained island of Ireland, a historic unit, ( after all the state then in existence was called the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland - previous to the "Act of Union it was always referred to as the Kingdom of Ireland))  voted for an Independent Republic in 1918 but that wish was overthrown by force of arms and terror.
Anyway not a lot can be done about all that now except wait for the numbers to stack up in the North

[red hander]

Now lads could you not re-read your posts there and address some of the glaring errors?

The idea that partition was anti-democratic is absurd. There was a clear majority in a geographically contained area against separation from UK. That democratic expression was recognised in the settlement. Democracy at work

An international border was redrawn to reflect democracy suddenly gets called a "false political entity" - grow up. Must Yugoslavia be re-united against the democratic wishes of its people(s)?

The abuses of people brought about by both Democratic majority in NI and the British government are shameful. However they can only be used to justify the creation or actions of the modern provos if the actions of the provos could be said to have addressed those abuses. Explain to me how the bombings in Warrington, Omagh, Coleraine, Portadown (this list can go on and on) relieved the oppression of Catholics or achieved a United Ireland? They didn't and they couldn't. They were murders and attempts at murder and their perpetrators murderers. Somehow I am being told this is hypocrisy and a re-writing of history. Anyone care to explain how? 

Thatcher's contribution to the GFA ia a myth. I have  never argued otherwise.

In all my years on this board that post is the biggest load of balls I've ever read, and that is saying something considering all the shite spouted by MnaG!

[seafoid]

NI was jerrymandered to give the unionists the best demographics. Like Lebanon for the maronites. Why wasn't it 9 counties?

[LCohen]

The gerrymandering comment is interesting. Was/is the problem the precise line of the border?

The reason it was not 9 counties was twofold:
1) Ther was not a majority (or close to a majority) in Cacan, Monaghan & Donegal seeking to remain in UK
2) The ancient provincial borders were irrelvant. It would have been madness to override democracy to preserve such an historic line in the sand.

In Fermanagh & Tyrone there were sizeable tranches of protestant/unionist people who wished to remain in UK. A lot of those people are still there. Unfortunately some desirable elements have resorted to ugly intimidation over the years that has seen their numbers reduce.

Geographically contained is self-explanatory. Enclaves dotted about the country would not be self contained.

Is Ireland an historic political unit? Really? has it it ever been governed as a single unit?

All current indicators indicate that the numbers in NI will not stack up any time soon. There is also the issue of numbers in the south stacking up simultaneously.

Nobody would argue that that the votes of the ethnic serbians across all of the yogoslavian states (which at a time wanted the former yugoslavia to survive as a single country) should have been used to defeat the nationalist desires of other former yougoslav republics. A more regional approach was required. It would have been madness to use an all ireland vote to enforce a united ireland against a sizeable body of people who formed a majority in a geographically contained area.

As far Nally Stand's questions:
1. The idea that violence was the answer or the only answer to the issues facing the catholic population of NI is crazy. Remember that republicism for a long time abstained from the democratic process and stood outside polling station berating Catholic for voting. Its hard to accept republican justifications of violence based on no access to democracy when they decided themselves to not get invole.

The options of democrary, protest (e.g. the civil rights movement) and exposé (embarass the mis-rule internationally) were the obvious routes to go. But is actually more fundamental than that. You need to be certain that you have exhautsed these options before you resort to killing people. You need to certain that any individual act of vilence will either achieve your political goal or edge you closer. The IRA have never had that justification.

2. The IRA of the trouble's era came into existence due the failure of political leadership in the Catholic/nationalist community. They filled tat gap with their poison. As a young boy the knock my door and the doors in my street trying to get lads involved in murder. I still regard that as child abuse.

3. Warrington happened. It was real. It was terrible. How did it advance the rights of Catholic or the unification of Ireland? Whether it typifies the IRA campaign is irrelvant unless you are are arguing that some IRA bombers were heroes and some were murderers.

I am interpreting your comment of "yes you had it bad, but sorry, you should have just bent over and taken it" as that of an idiot. I lived and live in a republican area. Murdering protestants, mudering police, bombing towns can not be justified. I am not actually required to put forward an alternative (though I have answered your questions above).

If are perpetrating or justifying the violence it is up to to prove that its virtues. You have failed to do so. 

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

The gerrymandering comment is interesting. Was/is the problem the precise line of the border?

The reason it was not 9 counties was twofold:
1) Ther was not a majority (or close to a majority) in Cacan, Monaghan & Donegal seeking to remain in UK

Sorry, you can't even get the name of the Ulster county right, and I've stopped reading, right there.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

The gerrymandering comment is interesting. Was/is the problem the precise line of the border?

The reason it was not 9 counties was twofold:
1) Ther was not a majority (or close to a majority) in Cacan, Monaghan & Donegal seeking to remain in UK

Sorry, you can't even get the name of the Ulster county right, and I've stopped reading, right there.

The C & V are right beside each other on the keyboard.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

There are plenty reasons to hate Thatcher but "UK PM stands up to IRA" is not one of them.

I agree. Her f**k up of Sunningdale. Her hatred of the Irish. The fact she contemplated ethnically cleansing Northern Ireland and creating British army security zones either side of the Irish border are ones though.

[gallsman]

and bearing in mind that the biggest population shift in Europe since the Second World War was of Catholics fleeing across the border for safety in the wake of the sectarian pogroms

Is that true?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

and bearing in mind that the biggest population shift in Europe since the Second World War was of Catholics fleeing across the border for safety in the wake of the sectarian pogroms

Is that true?

More than the Balkans during and after the various wars?
East Germans to West Germany?
Ethnic minorities in European Soviet Union to the Steppe and Siberia?
Irish to Britain?
Turks to Germany?
Munster, Connacht, midland, border county folk to Dublin, Kildare, Meath, Wicklow, Louth?
Africans, Asians, West-Indians to European countries?
Brits and Irish to Australia?
Middle-Eastern and North Africans to Europe?
Brazilians to Gort?
Brits to south of Spain?
Russians to Western Europe, Scandinavia, USA, Australia?
Tyrone students to the Holylands?
Irish and Welsh to Liverpool?
Germans, Italians, Maltese, Cypriots, Turks, Croats, Serbs, Greeks to Australia?
Scots to Canada and New Zealand?
Asians to Bradford, Walsall, Birmingham?
Brits to Celtic Tiger Ireland?
Irish to Glasgow?
Poles, Lithuanians, Lativians, Estonianas to Germany, Sweden, Finland, UK, Ireland etc?
Algerians to Italy?
Brits to Canada?
Irish to the United States?
Population shifts in the Caucasus?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

The gerrymandering comment is interesting. Was/is the problem the precise line of the border?

The reason it was not 9 counties was twofold:
1) Ther was not a majority (or close to a majority) in Cacan, Monaghan & Donegal seeking to remain in UK

\

Sorry, you can't even get the name of the Ulster county right, and I've stopped reading, right there.

The C & V are right beside each other on the keyboard.

Thanks for that clarification... D'oh! (So yjsy'd PL yjrm?)

[qubdub]

Relative to it's size and population it doesn't seem that far fetched.

[stew]

and bearing in mind that the biggest population shift in Europe since the Second World War was of Catholics fleeing across the border for safety in the wake of the sectarian pogroms

Is that true?

Nope, revistionist shite!