Irish mercenaries, unionist coat trailers and the Bard of Dunclug

[Evil Genius]

P.S. I'd enjoy your little victory whilst you can, for as the NIO points out "...The population of Northern Ireland is projected to increase by seventy thousand people (4%) over the five years from 2006 to 2011". With 55.77% of 70,000 amounting to 39,039, I'd say Unionism will hit the million mark some time towards the end of next year, or early 2010!

Yes, but whatever about the rest of your argument, this doesn't really stack up as the Protestant population is generally regarded as being in decline - so the majority of these extra 70,000 will likely be Catholic. Or neither.

I'm not going by the Protestant headcount, whether in decline or otherwise. And even if the Unionist population is decreasing as a percentage of the overall NI population, that merely means it will take a few months longer than I predicted for Unionism to pick up the extra 29k they need to hit the Magic Million Mark, from the population increase of 70k which NI is projected to receive by 2011.

Anyhow, I'm still waiting to hear from Donagh about how many Nationalists there are in NI, so keep the lines open!  

[Aoise]

Maguire01 in answer to your question, do I think that physical force republicanism was worth it? - Only in so far that we now have a society which is more or less based on the principle of equality and it is mere conjecture to suggest that we would have achieved it without it.  I can see the point that your making however I don't agree that we would have had the same outcome as the Unionist government already had 50 years to try and put things right before we had the onset of the troubles infact if anything at that stage things were getting worse for the catholic people of the six counties.  Physical force was the last resort for many nationalists and was more of a reaction to provocation than anything else.  I hate the fact that so many people lost their lives as a result of this situation but if your suggesting that things would have changed anyway, when the British and Irish governments had done nothing to control the fundamentalist fascism controlling the catholic people within our own country, then I think that is being very revisionist without any fact to base it on.  The reason why this is very relevent to this topic is because SF have now got to a stage where physical force is no longer utilised as observed by yesterdays parade.  A United Ireland can be fought on a political front, the search for democracy and equality had to be the first stage and that could not have been done without the use of physical force.  To me yesterdays protest was just an example that we've completed the first stage, now we have to focus on the long term objective and thats the constitutional question - politically!

BTW - how do you post quotes on this?

[Donagh]

P.S. I'd enjoy your little victory whilst you can, for as the NIO points out "...The population of Northern Ireland is projected to increase by seventy thousand people (4%) over the five years from 2006 to 2011". With 55.77% of 70,000 amounting to 39,039, I'd say Unionism will hit the million mark some time towards the end of next year, or early 2010!

Yes, but whatever about the rest of your argument, this doesn't really stack up as the Protestant population is generally regarded as being in decline - so the majority of these extra 70,000 will likely be Catholic. Or neither.

I'm not going by the Protestant headcount, whether in decline or otherwise. And even if the Unionist population is decreasing as a percentage of the overall NI population, that merely means it will take a few months longer than I predicted for Unionism to pick up the extra 29k they need to hit the Magic Million Mark, from the population increase of 70k which NI is projected to receive by 2011.

Anyhow, I'm still waiting to hear from Donagh about how many Nationalists there are in NI, so keep the lines open!  

You firstly asserted that there were 1 million unionists and then backed down to agree with me that there are 400k. Are you now saying there are a million again? If so where is your evidence?

[mylestheslasher]

I don't buy this either. If you consider that the majorty of people in the UK and the USA are against the current war in Iraq then I don't believe that this protest could have a negative effect on 95% of unionists. Surely, within Unionism, there is a large amount of people who are against the war in Iraq.

You miss one very important part of the equation, yes lots of people in the UK and USA are against the war but almost all are in favour of the troops and thats a very important disctinction.
Yesterdays protests would be construed as anti-troops and therefore not very popular to say the least.

Is that why numerous cities in the UK decided against similar parades?

So you think britsh troops are unpopular in the UK?

I see you also conviently left the US out of your reply, i wonder why??

The UK is the closest comparison to what happened in the Belfast. So can you tell me why similar parades were stopped in England? BTW, I don't oppose the parade because of the soldiers on the parade or their families or what side of the community they are from. I oppose the parade as I totally disagree with both the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and the mass murder of innocent people there. I oppose torture of prisoners, I oppose countries that throw the geneva convention into the dustbin when it suits them, I oppose evil sanctions on Iraq, I oppose dropping cluster bombs on residential areas. I don't see anything worth celebrating in any of this and I feel depressed that anyone would pat someone on the back and say "well done" for the job in Afghanistan and Iraq. If southern Irish troops were taking part I'd be protesting against them marching in Dublin too.  

[mylestheslasher]

Maguire01 in answer to your question, do I think that physical force republicanism was worth it? - Only in so far that we now have a society which is more or less based on the principle of equality and it is mere conjecture to suggest that we would have achieved it without it.  I can see the point that your making however I don't agree that we would have had the same outcome as the Unionist government already had 50 years to try and put things right before we had the onset of the troubles infact if anything at that stage things were getting worse for the catholic people of the six counties.  Physical force was the last resort for many nationalists and was more of a reaction to provocation than anything else.  I hate the fact that so many people lost their lives as a result of this situation but if your suggesting that things would have changed anyway, when the British and Irish governments had done nothing to control the fundamentalist fascism controlling the catholic people within our own country, then I think that is being very revisionist without any fact to base it on.  The reason why this is very relevent to this topic is because SF have now got to a stage where physical force is no longer utilised as observed by yesterdays parade.  A United Ireland can be fought on a political front, the search for democracy and equality had to be the first stage and that could not have been done without the use of physical force.  To me yesterdays protest was just an example that we've completed the first stage, now we have to focus on the long term objective and thats the constitutional question - politically!

BTW - how do you post quotes on this?

At the top right of each post is a "quote" button. Click on that instead of hitting reply and you'll get the comment window with the text you wanted to quote already there. You can then go in and highlight stuff on that post in bold or whatever. Evil Genius could give you a tutorial on it

[Aoise]

Maguire01 in answer to your question, do I think that physical force republicanism was worth it? - Only in so far that we now have a society which is more or less based on the principle of equality and it is mere conjecture to suggest that we would have achieved it without it.  I can see the point that your making however I don't agree that we would have had the same outcome as the Unionist government already had 50 years to try and put things right before we had the onset of the troubles infact if anything at that stage things were getting worse for the catholic people of the six counties.  Physical force was the last resort for many nationalists and was more of a reaction to provocation than anything else.  I hate the fact that so many people lost their lives as a result of this situation but if your suggesting that things would have changed anyway, when the British and Irish governments had done nothing to control the fundamentalist fascism controlling the catholic people within our own country, then I think that is being very revisionist without any fact to base it on.  The reason why this is very relevent to this topic is because SF have now got to a stage where physical force is no longer utilised as observed by yesterdays parade.  A United Ireland can be fought on a political front, the search for democracy and equality had to be the first stage and that could not have been done without the use of physical force.  To me yesterdays protest was just an example that we've completed the first stage, now we have to focus on the long term objective and thats the constitutional question - politically!

BTW - how do you post quotes on this?

At the top right of each post is a "quote" button. Click on that instead of hitting reply and you'll get the comment window with the text you wanted to quote already there. You can then go in and highlight stuff on that post in bold or whatever. Evil Genius could give you a tutorial on it

Thanks Myles - I think I'll give EG a miss though - don't want my head too wrecked on a Monday evening!

[ardmhachaabu]

Donagh, it was your contention in the post I quoted you from initially where you said there wasn't a Celtic top to be seen.

That is blatantly bullshit.  There are photos of eirigi ones in the local media clearly showing several punters towards the forefront of the eirigi ones who are wearing Celtic jerseys. 

I didn't suggest that eirigi had misbehaved in any way, from what I have heard of the speeches, the leaders would have had a different outcome if they had had their way.

Donagh, please reread and concentrate on the bit in bold.

[Evil Genius]

P.S. I'd enjoy your little victory whilst you can, for as the NIO points out "...The population of Northern Ireland is projected to increase by seventy thousand people (4%) over the five years from 2006 to 2011". With 55.77% of 70,000 amounting to 39,039, I'd say Unionism will hit the million mark some time towards the end of next year, or early 2010!

Yes, but whatever about the rest of your argument, this doesn't really stack up as the Protestant population is generally regarded as being in decline - so the majority of these extra 70,000 will likely be Catholic. Or neither.

I'm not going by the Protestant headcount, whether in decline or otherwise. And even if the Unionist population is decreasing as a percentage of the overall NI population, that merely means it will take a few months longer than I predicted for Unionism to pick up the extra 29k they need to hit the Magic Million Mark, from the population increase of 70k which NI is projected to receive by 2011.

Anyhow, I'm still waiting to hear from Donagh about how many Nationalists there are in NI, so keep the lines open!  

You firstly asserted that there were 1 million unionists and then backed down to agree with me that there are 400k. Are you now saying there are a million again? If so where is your evidence?

"Backed down"? Bit of an overstatement there, Donagh.
For the record, I still contend there are 1 million Unionists in NI (or as near as dammit) and have clearly outlined my reasoning for doing so.
However, for the sake of argument, I accepted your assertion that there are only 400k Unionists in NI, since I wanted to hear from you how many Nationalists you think there are in NI.
so have you an answer for me on this?

[Donagh]

Donagh, it was your contention in the post I quoted you from initially where you said there wasn't a Celtic top to be seen.

That is blatantly bullshit.  There are photos of eirigi ones in the local media clearly showing several punters towards the forefront of the eirigi ones who are wearing Celtic jerseys. 

I didn't suggest that eirigi had misbehaved in any way, from what I have heard of the speeches, the leaders would have had a different outcome if they had had their way.

Donagh, please reread and concentrate on the bit in bold.

Only if you would like to do the same:

"Perhaps you would like to post these photos or tell me who published them. I said I didn't see any Celtic tops and as I was telling the truth, it wasn't bullshit. I also mentioned the same to a few mates who were up from Dublin and they confirmed it also. Now we were all in amongst the crowd and perhaps didn't notice those on the outside as you may have done, but we were mingling for about half an hour beforehand and didn't see any."

Not that I don't believe you or anything, but I'm curious as I didn't see any and would like to see for myself.

[Donagh]

"Backed down"? Bit of an overstatement there, Donagh.
For the record, I still contend there are 1 million Unionists in NI (or as near as dammit) and have clearly outlined my reasoning for doing so.
However, for the sake of argument, I accepted your assertion that there are only 400k Unionists in NI, since I wanted to hear from you how many Nationalists you think there are in NI.
so have you an answer for me on this?

What are you on? Are you saying there are 1 million unionists? Give me the hard evidence and less of your "reasoning" please.

[ardmhachaabu]

Irish News, Newsletter.  I daresay the Telegraph got a few as well, whether they published them or not is a different matter.  There was also coverage on news items which showed spides in Celtic tops.  Of course though, you managed not to see any of them.  Good for you.

[Maguire01]

Maguire01 in answer to your question, do I think that physical force republicanism was worth it? - Only in so far that we now have a society which is more or less based on the principle of equality and it is mere conjecture to suggest that we would have achieved it without it.

Well i can hardly prove that that is what would have happened - you asked for my opinion.

To give a parallel, has progress with regard to racial equality throughout the world been achieved through the violence of racial minorities?

[Evil Genius]

"Backed down"? Bit of an overstatement there, Donagh.
For the record, I still contend there are 1 million Unionists in NI (or as near as dammit) and have clearly outlined my reasoning for doing so.
However, for the sake of argument, I accepted your assertion that there are only 400k Unionists in NI, since I wanted to hear from you how many Nationalists you think there are in NI.
so have you an answer for me on this?

What are you on? Are you saying there are 1 million unionists? Give me the hard evidence and less of your "reasoning" please.

OK, you are correct, There are only 400k Unionists in NI. And 300k Nationalists. Or am I wrong about this latter figure, as well?

[Donagh]

Irish News, Newsletter.  I daresay the Telegraph got a few as well, whether they published them or not is a different matter.  There was also coverage on news items which showed spides in Celtic tops.  Of course though, you managed not to see any of them.  Good for you.

I have the Irish News in front of me now and there are none. Looked at the Tele earlier and there were none in that either. Have just looked through the Newsletter website and I can't see any there either. Could it be possible that you are mistaken?

[Aoise]

To give a parallel, has progress with regard to racial equality throughout the world been achieved through the violence of racial minorities?
[/quote]

In essence yes - look at the situation in South Africa would apartheid have been demolished without the use of physical force?  We now have a situation where once a terrorist in many people's eyes (Nelson Mandella) is now regarded as a force of right for those seeking rights of their own.  There are many examples of this on a racial front but also on a global front.  Would Hitler have been defeated without the use of physical force reaction - no, we would have been living in a very different world today if this reaction hadn't have been utilised!