Collins or De Valera

[Evil Genius]

Collins and Dev were both fools. Britain was in the midst of a costly war, and at the same time were starting to do their damdest to get rid of Ireland. Churchill especially couldn't wait to see the back of the place. Without the War of Independance I believe there would have been an independant 32 county Ireland a few generations down the line, probably more at peace with itself, certainly not long after WWII. The "Empire" was truely starting to come apart at the seams after WWII, and in truth unlike some other colonies who had strategic or financial reasons for Britain having an interest in them all Ireland had to offer was cannon fodder. Irish recruits to the British Army would still have been plentiful enough after independance as it was steady work - there are even a sizeable number these days. The War of Independance seemed to sectarianise the situation a lot more than it had been previously, with protestant republicanism almost evaporating completely by the time the civil war was over.
Apart from anything else Dev was a cnut for signing the book of condolances for Hitler. Collins was at least smart enough to recognise the reality of the situation at the time - that many Irish people were totally opposed to leaving the UK and that it was the best deal he was ever going to get.     

So what would have happened between 1920 and 1945 that would have made the Unionists, who took up arms in 1912 to subvert the will of the people of the United Kingdom for limited autonomy in Ireland, accept complete independence for Ireland?

They would have been left with no choice in the matter, but more than likely offered a new start in Britain or even Canada or Australia. The Brits wanted an exit strategy but had their hand forced in 1916. If Ireland would have torn itself apart in a sectarian conflict what difference would it have made from the civil war? Absolutely none to outsiders. Many ex-colonies ended up in a state of civil war or worse all over the world after they gained independance. If you think that anyone in Britain has anything to gain from Northern Ireland being part of the UK you are living in cloud cuckoo land. That however is unlikely to change for a very very long time.

I don't think anyone can predict what would have happened had there been no War of Independence. But I see that War as being a classic example of the old Irish witticism where the American Tourist asks a local for directions to somewhere, only to meet the reply: "If I were you, I wouldn't start from here..."
That is, the key factor in determining Ireland's future was the Easter Rising. Before then, it seems clear that the British Government were going to honour their pledge of Home Rule, in some form or other. Of course, Ulster was going to be a problem, but Lloyd George was such a canny politician I feel he would have found some way of "finessing" the situation.
However, the Rising so inflamed feelings in every quarter, that a negotiated settlement on pre-WWI terms was now impossible.
In which case, Lloyd George had to deal with the situation in hand i.e. he couldn't start again from "somewhere else". That being so, he ultimately delivered a Settlement (the Treaty) which, from the British point of view, was the best achievable combination of principle and pragmatism.
Principle was served by the fact that of the three warring factions - pro-Treaty, anti-Treaty and Ulster Unionists - the anti-Treaty forces were the least powerful, so facing them down would be the least bloody outcome (there being no peaceful option available after the Rising).
And Pragmatism was served by the fact that if he denied Home Rule entirely, the escalating bloodshed would still have been Britain's responsibility, whereas if he had granted HR to all of Ireland, he would likely have had to face down the Ulster Unionists (whose Loyalty and Sacrifice during the Great War boosted their general popularity throughout GB).
Whereas, by implementing Partition, the bloodshed which was likely to arise (Civil War) would be the Free State's responsibility, not Britain's.
Further proof of this pragmatism and political ability of LG is to be found in the fact that Stormont was not originally intended to be a permanent "solution" to the Ulster question. As much as anything else, it was intended to secure Ulster's compliance with the Treaty "solution" and keep them out of any conflict, at least for the time being. Of course, Stormont soon became became a permanent fixture, but it is not coincidental that the Parliament Buldings which evenyually embodied that permanence were not actually opened until 1932 - 11 years on from the Treaty.

Therefore, from this Irish Unionist's perspective, regardless of who one considers to have been the "hero" of 1921, in my eyes, the clear "Villain" was De Valera, not for what he did in the Civil War, but for his part in the Rising.
And fwiw, whilst I know this will receive the shortest of shrift amongst Nationalists/Republicans today, I feel anyone who desires a truly United Ireland should reject Dev and the other leaders of the Rising even more firmly, since that event turned out to be the seminal event in hardening attitudes (unnecessarily, I might add) on every front (Ulster, Ireland, Britain), so that whatever else, there was never going to be a united Ireland in the lifetime of anyone who was around in 1916.

P.S. As for Solomon's conjecture (above), I don't necessarily agree or disagree with it, but would take the strongest issue with one point. Namely, a modern day "Flight of the Unionists" (to Canada or Australia etc) was never going to happen. After 300 years when many of their ancestors had forged on to the Americas, Australasia and beyond, those who were still left by 1921 weren't going anywhere. (And they still aren't, 400 years later!)
 

[his holiness nb]

I feel anyone who desires a truly United Ireland should reject Dev and the other leaders of the Rising even more firmly

EG, I gotta hand it to you, you would probably make a good argument that black is white 

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Dev, but have a great respect for Collins the military man.

[Donagh]

Dev was Chief. Collins should have stood by him no matter what. In war, men have been shot for less. Ah that's right...

[Zapatista]

Dev, but have a great respect for Collins the military man.

Was he not more of an assasin?

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Dev, but have a great respect for Collins the military man.

Was he not more of an assasin?

Zap you sound like Kevin Mayers now. 

[Zapatista]

Dev, but have a great respect for Collins the military man.

Was he not more of an assasin?

Zap you sound like Kevin Mayers now. 

Kevin Myers can spell assasin.

[Evil Genius]

I feel anyone who desires a truly United Ireland should reject Dev and the other leaders of the Rising even more firmly

EG, I gotta hand it to you, you would probably make a good argument that black is white 

Is that it? Just one line plucked from a carefully constructed case. No analysis of that case? No effort to put forward a counter argument?

Don't tire yourself out.

[Chrisowc]

Dev was Chief. Collins should have stood by him no matter what. In war, men have been shot for less. Ah that's right...

Donagh! Where have you been?  I've missed you.

I see the Ulster Unionists will now be in cahoots (as the big man would say.  The Rev, not God) with the Conservative party.  Just wondering where that leaves Fianna Fail? 

[his holiness nb]

I feel anyone who desires a truly United Ireland should reject Dev and the other leaders of the Rising even more firmly

EG, I gotta hand it to you, you would probably make a good argument that black is white 

Is that it? Just one line plucked from a carefully constructed case. No analysis of that case? No effort to put forward a counter argument?

Don't tire yourself out.

EG, I was complimenting your writing skills. Very impressed at how you pieced that together, whether I agree or not is irrelevant, it was a compliment.

The bit I highlighted is to prove this, a highly silly looking statement on its own, but the whole argument made it look quite practical. You nearly even had me beleiving it.
Take the compliment when you can EG, I dont throw you many  

[Evil Genius]

EG, I was complimenting your writing skills. Very impressed at how you pieced that together, whether I agree or not is irrelevant, it was a compliment.

Take the compliment when you can EG, I dont throw you many  

Fair enough, I shall accept that in the spirit it was given

The bit I highlighted is to prove this, a highly silly looking statement on its own, but the whole argument made it look quite practical. You nearly even had me beleiving it.

To contend that the whole argument must be false, since one line extracted from it is ostensibly silly, is inverted logic if ever I saw it.
Context is everything, so your tactic is not just meaningless, it is positively misleading. This suggests to me that you are unable to find fault with my basic thesis.

Or do you disagree that after the Rising, the Unionists in Ulster were never going to be persuaded to throw their lot in with their Nationalist fellow-Irishmen on any terms, now that those Nationalists had now embraced the extreme, violent ideals (Pearse's "blood sacrifice" etc) of the new Republican leadership?
"Now and in time to be,
Wherever green is worn,
Are changed, changed utterly:
A terrible beauty is born"

[Donagh]

Donagh! Where have you been?  I've missed you.

Thanks Chris, you were the only one to even notice I was gone. 

I was out in South America expressing solidarity on your behalf with the oppressed indigenous and poor of Peru, Columbia and Bolivia. While there I was lucky enough to be able to take part in some anti-globalisation direct action. From the 1st pic you can see I was able to share some of our local expertise and tactics in such situations:



From the 2nd pic you can see that there was a sharing of knowledge as the locals demonstrated to me that rather than erecting one static barricade, in fact the better option is to flood the road with sharp rocks over distance thereby negating the oppositions (in this case a not unlike RUC paramilitary force) from rushing you in a surprise attack.



However the real learning on my part came when the Columbian activists allowed me to try out some of their recently acquired technology:

I see the Ulster Unionists will now be in cahoots (as the big man would say.  The Rev, not God) with the Conservative party.  Just wondering where that leaves Fianna Fail? 

The garden centre Prods will still look to the Fianna Fail mafiosi as their way of greasing the wheels of capitalism, after all what Brits give with one hand they take with another (passport checks between Larne and Stranraer) 

[Fiodoir Ard Mhacha]

Has to be, has always been, will always be Michael Collins. Dev chickened out in '21, took the Oath in '27, took to power in '32, took to uber-Catholicism in '37 and took a nice idle stand-by til '75 when he died in his bed, aged 93.

[Chrisowc]

The garden centre Prods will still look to the Fianna Fail mafiosi as their way of greasing the wheels of capitalism, after all what Brits give with one hand they take with another (passport checks between Larne and Stranraer) 

Good job.  I say UK authorities will be stepping up spot checks along the Irish border too

I take it the areas you were in were too remote to hijack buses

[Donagh]

Good job.  I say UK authorities will be stepping up spot checks along the Irish border too

I take it the areas you were in were too remote to hijack buses

Nah, no buses. I was frigging half way there to explaining how to hijack trains (a la the Lurgan boys) in my pigeon Spanish when they told me the trains stopped running 60 years ago