Collins or De Valera

[Evil Genius]

Obviously it's true what they say about "you people"* and sense of humour.

Explanation: Prosecute/persecute was my little attempt at a (bad) punning joke.

* Carsonites

I could hardly be expected to appreciate you were "punning", seeing as Wilde was both persecuted and prosecuted. Besides, my answer alluded to both possibilities. Either way, you were wrong. 

Your response reminds me of a Chinese man I knew (another bunch with no sense of humour) whose response to the three-legged chicken joke was to argue for half an hour that it made no sense as it was impossible for a chicken to have three legs. He was great fun at parties.

As a "Carsonite" [sic], I guess I'm used to being stereotyped. But a billion Chinese? Anyhow, how do you know I'm not ethnic Chinese myself? Don't you know that Cantonese is thought to be the 2nd most numerous "mother tongue" in NI after English? Unless all those Poles, Portugese and Lithuanians etc have since pushed it further down the list...

[Solomon Kane]

Collins and Dev were both fools. Britain was in the midst of a costly war, and at the same time were starting to do their damdest to get rid of Ireland. Churchill especially couldn't wait to see the back of the place. Without the War of Independance I believe there would have been an independant 32 county Ireland a few generations down the line, probably more at peace with itself, certainly not long after WWII. The "Empire" was truely starting to come apart at the seams after WWII, and in truth unlike some other colonies who had strategic or financial reasons for Britain having an interest in them all Ireland had to offer was cannon fodder. Irish recruits to the British Army would still have been plentiful enough after independance as it was steady work - there are even a sizeable number these days. The War of Independance seemed to sectarianise the situation a lot more than it had been previously, with protestant republicanism almost evaporating completely by the time the civil war was over.
Apart from anything else Dev was a cnut for signing the book of condolances for Hitler. Collins was at least smart enough to recognise the reality of the situation at the time - that many Irish people were totally opposed to leaving the UK and that it was the best deal he was ever going to get.     

[Hurler on the Bitch]

There are a lot of 'Trendy Bastards' who think that Collins was God. Thanks to Liam Neeson I feel. The fact is that the iconic pic of Collins in military uniform adorns many walls - remember, he never wore a uniform against the Brits and was only prosecuting a war against fellow Irishmen while in it!!! I wasn't a fan of Dev's either - mainly because of his glasses.

[Solomon Kane]

Carson was seen as a Lundy by many Unionists for "selling out" a fairly large Unionist population in Donegal.

[Chrisowc]

As a "Carsonite" [sic], I guess I'm used to being stereotyped. But a billion Chinese? Anyhow, how do you know I'm not ethnic Chinese myself? Don't you know that Cantonese is thought to be the 2nd most numerous "mother tongue" in NI after English? Unless all those Poles, Portugese and Lithuanians etc have since pushed it further down the list...

I see what you did there.

[Hurler on the Bitch]

Didn't he persecute Oscar Wilde as well.

Another myth. He was actually quite friendly with Wilde, on a personal/family basis. And he did not "persecute" (or even prosecute) Wilde. Rather, when Wilde brought a (hopeless) civil case against his real persecutor, the Marquis of Queensbury, Carson acted successfully for the defence.
Evidence given in Wilde's Civil case then laid him open to the criminal charges and conviction which eventually ruined him. Afaik, Carson actually tried to use his influence with the judiciary to achieve leniency for Wilde in the criminal case, but to no avail.

As Wilde said of Carson when news came through that he was to represent Queensberry against him: "No doubt he will pursue his case with all the added bitterness of an old friend."

[magpie seanie]

Collins was right. Republican rhetoric and idealism would have made aspects of the treaty hard to accept at the time though being pragmatic it was a good stepping stone. The great shame is that we started tearing ourselves apart rather than regrouping and working on freeing the 6 counties.

[deiseach]

Collins and Dev were both fools. Britain was in the midst of a costly war, and at the same time were starting to do their damdest to get rid of Ireland. Churchill especially couldn't wait to see the back of the place. Without the War of Independance I believe there would have been an independant 32 county Ireland a few generations down the line, probably more at peace with itself, certainly not long after WWII. The "Empire" was truely starting to come apart at the seams after WWII, and in truth unlike some other colonies who had strategic or financial reasons for Britain having an interest in them all Ireland had to offer was cannon fodder. Irish recruits to the British Army would still have been plentiful enough after independance as it was steady work - there are even a sizeable number these days. The War of Independance seemed to sectarianise the situation a lot more than it had been previously, with protestant republicanism almost evaporating completely by the time the civil war was over.
Apart from anything else Dev was a cnut for signing the book of condolances for Hitler. Collins was at least smart enough to recognise the reality of the situation at the time - that many Irish people were totally opposed to leaving the UK and that it was the best deal he was ever going to get.     

So what would have happened between 1920 and 1945 that would have made the Unionists, who took up arms in 1912 to subvert the will of the people of the United Kingdom for limited autonomy in Ireland, accept complete independence for Ireland?

[Son_of_Sam]

Has to be Mick

[Gnevin]

Voted for  Collins as we all know I believe Dev did a Dev 

[ziggysego]

Daddy or chips?

[Zapatista]

Collins was right. Republican rhetoric and idealism would have made aspects of the treaty hard to accept at the time though being pragmatic it was a good stepping stone. The great shame is that we started tearing ourselves apart rather than regrouping and working on freeing the 6 counties.

Fighting the war wasn't even pragmatic. Very little done by Republicans was pagmatic. Republican idealism and rhetoric was the only pragmatic part of it and the only part alive today. After all Republicanism was what it was supposed to be about. I can fully understand how it was hard to accept. I also think if the treaty had not have been signed there would have been no "tearing ourselves apart rather than regrouping".

[Solomon Kane]

Collins and Dev were both fools. Britain was in the midst of a costly war, and at the same time were starting to do their damdest to get rid of Ireland. Churchill especially couldn't wait to see the back of the place. Without the War of Independance I believe there would have been an independant 32 county Ireland a few generations down the line, probably more at peace with itself, certainly not long after WWII. The "Empire" was truely starting to come apart at the seams after WWII, and in truth unlike some other colonies who had strategic or financial reasons for Britain having an interest in them all Ireland had to offer was cannon fodder. Irish recruits to the British Army would still have been plentiful enough after independance as it was steady work - there are even a sizeable number these days. The War of Independance seemed to sectarianise the situation a lot more than it had been previously, with protestant republicanism almost evaporating completely by the time the civil war was over.
Apart from anything else Dev was a cnut for signing the book of condolances for Hitler. Collins was at least smart enough to recognise the reality of the situation at the time - that many Irish people were totally opposed to leaving the UK and that it was the best deal he was ever going to get.     

So what would have happened between 1920 and 1945 that would have made the Unionists, who took up arms in 1912 to subvert the will of the people of the United Kingdom for limited autonomy in Ireland, accept complete independence for Ireland?

They would have been left with no choice in the matter, but more than likely offered a new start in Britain or even Canada or Australia. The Brits wanted an exit strategy but had their hand forced in 1916. If Ireland would have torn itself apart in a sectarian conflict what difference would it have made from the civil war? Absolutely none to outsiders. Many ex-colonies ended up in a state of civil war or worse all over the world after they gained independance. If you think that anyone in Britain has anything to gain from Northern Ireland being part of the UK you are living in cloud cuckoo land. That however is unlikely to change for a very very long time.

[armaghniac]

The Brits wanted an exit strategy but had their hand forced in 1916.

What evidence is there of this "exit strategy". Identify something that indicates that Britain wanted Irish independence. They did nothing whatsoever to set up or even propose the type of arrangements now found in the 6 counties that would have defended unionist interests in a 32 county state.

[Zapatista]

.If you think that anyone in Britain has anything to gain from Northern Ireland being part of the UK you are living in cloud cuckoo land. That however is unlikely to change for a very very long time.

Gordon Brown made good use of the DUP in the 42 day detention vote in West Minister last month.