Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[SammyG]

I was of the opinion that most people from a Unionist background would object to this shrine. I never said anyone who objected to the shrine / centre was less enlightened or neanderthal.

Err yes you did

"While I do think the hunger strikers should be commemorated, is the idea of the centre here, or even the history of what happened there, a possible reason for the less enlightened members of the NI fans to not wish the stadium to be located here?

I know they may give other reasons, and am not suggesting this is the reason that EG and Sammy are objecting, but it could be in the minds of the more neanderthal members of their support, being that its a place where history took place and heroes (in some peoples eyes) on the republican side were born.
"

My point was asking would objections to the shrine, or if the centre didnt go ahead, the history of the place, be a reason to stop NI fans wanting to have the stadium there.

I wasnt asking about your opinion on whether the centre was right, I'd presume most NI fans would be against it.

I was asking if its at the back of some peoples minds when opposing the Maze stadium, as most of the arguments seem to be about logistical problems.
Not so many people have stated the fact that its the maze as being a problem in itself.

That's because (for about the tenth time) it isn't a fact. The issues with the Maze site are about the logistics not about the terror shrine. Yet again you refuse to believe (or even read) what people say and just spout your opinions as 'fact'.

[T Fearon]

Sammy, Chris, Evil Genius etc. Question

How do you feel about the statue of the Dublin born UVF terrorist and illegal gun runner that stands outside the Parlianment Buildings at Stormont?

[his holiness nb]

Err yes you did

"While I do think the hunger strikers should be commemorated, is the idea of the centre here, or even the history of what happened there, a possible reason for the less enlightened members of the NI fans to not wish the stadium to be located here?

I know they may give other reasons, and am not suggesting this is the reason that EG and Sammy are objecting, but it could be in the minds of the more neanderthal members of their support, being that its a place where history took place and heroes (in some peoples eyes) on the republican side were born.
"

Read it again slowly, I said people who used objections to the centre/shrine as a reason for objecting the move to the maze were. I most definately did not say people who opposed the centre / shrine were less enlightened or neanderthal.

This is so clear I cringed reading your post Sammy  

My point was asking would objections to the shrine, or if the centre didnt go ahead, the history of the place, be a reason to stop NI fans wanting to have the stadium there.

I wasnt asking about your opinion on whether the centre was right, I'd presume most NI fans would be against it.

I was asking if its at the back of some peoples minds when opposing the Maze stadium, as most of the arguments seem to be about logistical problems.
Not so many people have stated the fact that its the maze as being a problem in itself.

That's because (for about the tenth time) it isn't a fact. The issues with the Maze site are about the logistics not about the terror shrine.

Did I say it was a fact? Despite your previous posts, I cant read minds. This is why I asked the question!  

Yet again you refuse to believe (or even read) what people say and just spout your opinions as 'fact'.

Spout my opinions as fact???
I asked a question  

And when did I refuse to believe what people say about not wanting to move here?  I think there are some very good reasons given for not going to the maze, none of which I have disputed. Feel free to point out where I have argued with ANY of the reasons given for not moving to the maze?

Seriously Sammy, you have come up with wild stuff here about me spouting opinions as fact and refusing to read what people say.
Show me where I argued with a reason given for not moving to the Maze?

[SammyG]

My point was asking would objections to the shrine, or if the centre didnt go ahead, the history of the place, be a reason to stop NI fans wanting to have the stadium there.

I wasnt asking about your opinion on whether the centre was right, I'd presume most NI fans would be against it.

I was asking if its at the back of some peoples minds when opposing the Maze stadium, as most of the arguments seem to be about logistical problems.
Not so many people have stated the fact that its the maze as being a problem in itself.

Did I say it was a fact? Despite your previous posts, I cant read minds. This is why I asked the question!  

Sorry but you clearly can't even read your own posts, never mind reading mine. You said it was a fact in the highlighted bit, and that 'fact' was the reason people opposed the Maze.

[The Watcher Pat]

I think that they should re-invest in Windsor park....this will allow Linfield to continue to dominate the football League due to the money they get paid for the international matches.......isn't this the hidden agenda

Of course this is the hidden agenda....

Whose hidden Agenda? All the other clubs are long since fed up with Linfield getting so much money from the IFA, under a ludicrously unfair contract. And the IFA has signed up to the Maze, at least in principle, so how does that fit in with an Agenda to keep NI at Windsor?

The place is a dump anyway, dont really know why else anyone would want to stay there when they have a chance to move into a new stadium...It really could only happen in this country...

The majority of soccer's "stakeholders" (clubs, officials, supporters) do want to move into a new Stadium - it's just that they don't want to be forced to move to this particular new Stadium at the Maze, since it's the wrong size and design, in the wrong location, plus a hideously expensive waste of public money, when other possible alternatives in Belfast would be much more suitable and less expensive.

Maybe it's because the OWC'ers from Belfast don't want to travel to the Maze?

Utter bullshit. The best indicator of opinion was a survey of actual NI fans taken at the Wales game, when the overwhelming majority (90%) preferred Belfast over the Maze as a location. All of the Amalgamation Supporters Clubs, bar a couple, have expressed a preference for Belfast. Curiously, the pro-Belfast clubs cover the whole of NI, whereas the pro-Maze clubs are in, ahem, the Lisburn area. Further, there is a UTV poll running on this very subject which after nearly 3,000 votes, is presently showing 82% in favour of Belfast, versus 18% for the Maze. Oh, and the IFA commissioned a Poll of people in NI on this subject a while back, but have so far refused all calls to release the full findings. Meanwhile, they also refuse to honour a pledge to Poll just soccer supporters in NI. I wonder why?

Windsor park should be levelled to the ground and built up with social housing. Apparently there is a real need for social housing in that area.

Er, Windsor is owned by Linfield. They currently have neither the will nor the need to see it knocked down. Would you like to see public money being spent on buying it from them to build houses on a site which would be expensive, since it also has commercial value? Especially when the Government already owns a perfectly serviceable site at the Maze, on which they could build 10 times the number of social houses, a hell of a sight cheaper, if they really liked.

But hey, I'm sure soccer fans might go along with your plan to build at the Maze and demolish Windsor, so long as the same was done for Casement and Ravenhill. You know, Parity of Esteem and Shared Space etc...


You know, it might be easier for you to go on believing what suits your particular worldview, but it's not very bright, is it?  

Why would Soccer fans want Casement park or Ravenhill demolished? Partiy of esteem? Shared spaces? Oh that ok when it suits the Loyalist agenda....

[his holiness nb]

My point was asking would objections to the shrine, or if the centre didnt go ahead, the history of the place, be a reason to stop NI fans wanting to have the stadium there.

I wasnt asking about your opinion on whether the centre was right, I'd presume most NI fans would be against it.

I was asking if its at the back of some peoples minds when opposing the Maze stadium, as most of the arguments seem to be about logistical problems.
Not so many people have stated the fact that its the maze as being a problem in itself.

Did I say it was a fact? Despite your previous posts, I cant read minds. This is why I asked the question!  

Sorry but you clearly can't even read your own posts, never mind reading mine. You said it was a fact in the highlighted bit, and that 'fact' was the reason people opposed the Maze.

Jesus christ Sammy, you are getting desperately picky, I'll highlight one bit to help you out.

Not many people have said the fact that its in the maze is a problem in itself.

Meaning a) it is fact that the proposed stadium is in the maze and b) not many people have stated this is a problem.
So I asked if this could possible be a reason for objections. At no stage did I suggest it was a reason, I was just wondering, hence the question.

Surely even that must be simple enough for you to understand?

If I left out a comma or something in there somewhere I profoundly apologise 

[SammyG]

My point was asking would objections to the shrine, or if the centre didnt go ahead, the history of the place, be a reason to stop NI fans wanting to have the stadium there.

I wasnt asking about your opinion on whether the centre was right, I'd presume most NI fans would be against it.

I was asking if its at the back of some peoples minds when opposing the Maze stadium, as most of the arguments seem to be about logistical problems.
Not so many people have stated the fact that its the maze as being a problem in itself.

Did I say it was a fact? Despite your previous posts, I cant read minds. This is why I asked the question!  

Sorry but you clearly can't even read your own posts, never mind reading mine. You said it was a fact in the highlighted bit, and that 'fact' was the reason people opposed the Maze.

Jesus christ Sammy, you are getting desperately picky, I'll highlight one bit to help you out.

Not many people have said the fact that its in the maze is a problem in itself.

Meaning a) it is fact that the proposed stadium is in the maze and b) not many people have stated this is a problem.
So I asked if this could possible be a reason for objections. At no stage did I suggest it was a reason, I was just wondering, hence the question.

Surely even that must be simple enough for you to understand?

Hence what question? You didn't ask a question you said that it was a 'fact' that the Maze was a problem in itself. This fact is nothing of the sort it is a figment of your imagination, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

[Evil Genius]

Sammy, Chris, Evil Genius etc. Question

How do you feel about the statue of the Dublin born UVF terrorist and illegal gun runner that stands outside the Parlianment Buildings at Stormont?

Since it has no relevance whatever to soccer in NI, and no-one is proposing building a Stadium at Stormont, I fail entirely to see the relevance of your question to just about any aspect of this thread.

Start another thread about Carson's statue, if you like (though I daresay it will be another in the seemingly endless list of "clever" threads you start, which receive numerous viewings, and precisely no replies  )

[his holiness nb]

Hence what question? You didn't ask a question you said that it was a 'fact' that the Maze was a problem in itself. This fact is nothing of the sort it is a figment of your imagination, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Read this a little slower this time Sammy..

Not many people have said the fact that its in the maze is a problem in itself.

Meaning a) it is fact that the proposed stadium is in the maze and b) not many people have stated this is a problem.
So I asked if this could possible be a reason for objections. At no stage did I suggest it was a reason, I was just wondering, hence the question

[Evil Genius]

I think that they should re-invest in Windsor park....this will allow Linfield to continue to dominate the football League due to the money they get paid for the international matches.......isn't this the hidden agenda

Of course this is the hidden agenda....

Whose hidden Agenda? All the other clubs are long since fed up with Linfield getting so much money from the IFA, under a ludicrously unfair contract. And the IFA has signed up to the Maze, at least in principle, so how does that fit in with an Agenda to keep NI at Windsor?

The place is a dump anyway, dont really know why else anyone would want to stay there when they have a chance to move into a new stadium...It really could only happen in this country...

The majority of soccer's "stakeholders" (clubs, officials, supporters) do want to move into a new Stadium - it's just that they don't want to be forced to move to this particular new Stadium at the Maze, since it's the wrong size and design, in the wrong location, plus a hideously expensive waste of public money, when other possible alternatives in Belfast would be much more suitable and less expensive.

Maybe it's because the OWC'ers from Belfast don't want to travel to the Maze?

Utter bullshit. The best indicator of opinion was a survey of actual NI fans taken at the Wales game, when the overwhelming majority (90%) preferred Belfast over the Maze as a location. All of the Amalgamation Supporters Clubs, bar a couple, have expressed a preference for Belfast. Curiously, the pro-Belfast clubs cover the whole of NI, whereas the pro-Maze clubs are in, ahem, the Lisburn area. Further, there is a UTV poll running on this very subject which after nearly 3,000 votes, is presently showing 82% in favour of Belfast, versus 18% for the Maze. Oh, and the IFA commissioned a Poll of people in NI on this subject a while back, but have so far refused all calls to release the full findings. Meanwhile, they also refuse to honour a pledge to Poll just soccer supporters in NI. I wonder why?

Windsor park should be levelled to the ground and built up with social housing. Apparently there is a real need for social housing in that area.

Er, Windsor is owned by Linfield. They currently have neither the will nor the need to see it knocked down. Would you like to see public money being spent on buying it from them to build houses on a site which would be expensive, since it also has commercial value? Especially when the Government already owns a perfectly serviceable site at the Maze, on which they could build 10 times the number of social houses, a hell of a sight cheaper, if they really liked.

But hey, I'm sure soccer fans might go along with your plan to build at the Maze and demolish Windsor, so long as the same was done for Casement and Ravenhill. You know, Parity of Esteem and Shared Space etc...


You know, it might be easier for you to go on believing what suits your particular worldview, but it's not very bright, is it?  

Why would Soccer fans want Casement park or Ravenhill demolished? Partiy of esteem? Shared spaces? Oh that ok when it suits the Loyalist agenda....

I don't want to see Casement or Ravenhill demolished. But you were suggesting that someone - presumably the Government, since LFC have no desire to do so - should demolish Windsor and replace it with social housing. Again, I must presume this would be as some sort of wierd quid pro quo for the Government building a soccer stadium at the Maze. Therefore, on the basis of "Sauce for the Goose etc", why not do the same to Casement or Ravenhill - though I think all three are utterly bizarre suggestions.

Perhaps it might be better if you just posted "I hate Unionists/soccer/Linfield/Windsor/the IFA etc, they're all a shower, so there".

It wouldn't necessarily add to the debate; then again, neither do your regular posts, but at least we'd all have the benefit of knowing exactly where you stand.  

[SammyG]

Hence what question? You didn't ask a question you said that it was a 'fact' that the Maze was a problem in itself. This fact is nothing of the sort it is a figment of your imagination, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Read this a little slower this time Sammy..

Not many people have said the fact that its in the maze is a problem in itself.

Meaning a) it is fact that the proposed stadium is in the maze and b) not many people have stated this is a problem.
So I asked if this could possible be a reason for objections. At no stage did I suggest it was a reason, I was just wondering, hence the question

Read you post again, you didn't ask anything, you made a statement, which you claimed was a 'fact'. There are no questions anywhere in your post.

[his holiness nb]

This is getting tiresome Sammy, the question was in my original post.

Stop asking me to re-read my own posts, I know what I meant myself! Jesus and you were giving out about me earlier claiming to know what you think!

My previous post clearly shows exactly what I meant by that statement, and that I was not stating it as fact that the stadium being in the maze was a problem.

To summarise, I do not argue with any of the points being made against the stadium being in the Maze, nor have I ever done so.
I was wondering if the stadium being in the maze was also a problem to some NI fans, hence I asked if it was. If I was sure enough to say its a fact that this was a problem, I wouldnt have asked the question!

Then you made a pathetic attempt to twist my words to suggest I was saying for a fact that it was a problem, despite me starting this whole thing by asking IF it was.

Despite my clearly proving this to be untrue, you still persist with the argument, whilst ignoring the evidence right in front of your eyes.
You know this is untrue and are deliberatly trying to be a pain in the hole rather than admit you took me up wrong.

Sammy you have done this several times before, either took someone up wrong or lied, and when proven wrong refused to backtrack.
It shows poor character in my opinion and the sort of sneaky weasly character thats not worthy of debating with.

Even EG, who is ten times the debater you are, is willing to accept if he makes the occasional error, which he rarely does.

Grow up for f**k sake.

[Evil Genius]

Even EG, who is ten times the debater you are, is willing to accept if he makes the occasional error, which he rarely does.

Oi! I never make mistakes, because I'm a Genius.

And even if I did, I'd never admit it, because I'm Evil.

So there. 

[his holiness nb]

Even EG, who is ten times the debater you are, is willing to accept if he makes the occasional error, which he rarely does.

Oi! I never make mistakes, because I'm a Genius.

And even if I did, I'd never admit it, because I'm Evil.

So there. 

Maybe you could use the "genius" side to explain to Sammy what I have tried to make clear and is obvious to all bar him.

Jaysus its the one topic I'm not argueing with you lot on and a simple question gets me all sorts of accusations!

[SammyG]

This is getting tiresome Sammy, the question was in my original post.

And that question was answered saying that it wasn't an issue and you replied that it was an issue and this was a 'fact'.

Stop asking me to re-read my own posts, I know what I meant myself! Jesus and you were giving out about me earlier claiming to know what you think!

I'll stop asking when you stop contradicting yourself.

My previous post clearly shows exactly what I meant by that statement, and that I was not stating it as fact that the stadium being in the maze was a problem.

No it doesn't it says the exact opposite.

To summarise, I do not argue with any of the points being made against the stadium being in the Maze, nor have I ever done so.
I was wondering if the stadium being in the maze was also a problem to some NI fans, hence I asked if it was. If I was sure enough to say its a fact that this was a problem, I wouldnt have asked the question!

Excellent

Then you made a pathetic attempt to twist my words to suggest I was saying for a fact that it was a problem, despite me starting this whole thing by asking IF it was.

I haven't twisted anything. I quoted your whole post, word for word.

Despite my clearly proving this to be untrue,

You've proven nothing of the sort. You've tried to explain what you meant by re-stating the same thing.

you still persist with the argument, whilst ignoring the evidence right in front of your eyes.

Pot and kettle

You know this is untrue and are deliberatly trying to be a pain in the hole rather than admit you took me up wrong.

HOw can I take yuou up wrong? You said it in black and white.

Sammy you have done this several times before, either took someone up wrong or lied, and when proven wrong refused to backtrack.
It shows poor character in my opinion and the sort of sneaky weasly character thats not worthy of debating with.

So you spout shite and when I pull you about it, it's me that has the problem!!! Brilliant you can't beat logic like that.

Even EG, who is ten times the debater you are, is willing to accept if he makes the occasional error, which he rarely does.

I'm happy to admit if I make a mistake but in this case you said something was a 'fact' when it was bullshit.

Grow up for f**k sake.

Pot and kettle again.