Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[snatter]

Snatter, I don't see where you are going with this. The all party working group agreed on the idea of a stadium and combined conflict transformation centre, so I assume they had the backing of their parties in principle to do so. Each of those parties then has members coming out in favour of a stadium in Belfast which then leads one to assume that (i) none of the parties have an official policy and (ii) the principle of the conflict transformation centre was conceded, so it's not an obstacle to the building of the stadium. The opposition to the stadium is coming from the pro-Belfast lobby and OWC soccer supporters. Butler's press release is crude and self-serving but he's a politician and that's what they do best. But at the end of the day he was on the working group and he was also the one who was shafted by the unionists after Lisburn got city status so he's bound coming out batting for his own side (i.e. for what he negotiated on the working group and what he sees as in the best interests of the nationalists in the 'Lisburn' area that elected him.)   

Pretty obvious where I'm going, and my guess is that you'd worked it out by now.

Assuming that this PWC report stands up to scrutiny, then the only straw the rejectionists can now clutch at is the issue of the Conflict Centre.

The problem here is that the shinners have categorically linked the provision of a stadium to the building of the conflict centre. They claim one can not proceed without the other, given that they and the DUP have to agree (point clearly backed up by previous statement on sinn fein's website).

The shinners have done this despite the GAA making it clear that they strongly want this stadium.
As indeed have the IRFU and to a lesser extent the IFA.

If the shinners persist with this line, there is every chance that the DUP will not agree, and that no stadium will be built. Especially now that Edwin's buddies in the Paisley wing are losing influence to the Belfast based Robinson crew.

Surely it would be better for all three sports if the issue of the conflict centre was decoupled from the stadium, at least until after it was built.
If the resolution of the conflict centre was shelved for a year or two after the stadium is built, there would be no more grounds for rejectionists to veto the Maze.

Once the stadium's built, the NI fans would use it anyway.

If the shinners lifted their veto, the GAA stands more chance of getting the stadium we need.
If the shinners don't lift their veto, then its clear that the GAA's interests are once again being ignored by Sinn Fein.

[Donagh]

Pretty obvious where I'm going, and my guess is that you'd worked it out by now.

Assuming that this PWC report stands up to scrutiny, then the only straw the rejectionists can now clutch at is the issue of the Conflict Centre.

The problem here is that the shinners have categorically linked the provision of a stadium to the building of the conflict centre. They claim one can not proceed without the other, given that they and the DUP have to agree (point clearly backed up by previous statement on sinn fein's website).

The shinners have done this despite the GAA making it clear that they strongly want this stadium.
As indeed have the IRFU and to a lesser extent the IFA.

If the shinners persist with this line, there is every chance that the DUP will not agree, and that no stadium will be built. Especially now that Edwin's buddies in the Paisley wing are losing influence to the Belfast based Robinson crew.

Surely it would be better for all three sports if the issue of the conflict centre was decoupled from the stadium, at least until after it was built.
If the resolution of the conflict centre was shelved for a year or two after the stadium is built, there would be no more grounds for rejectionists to veto the Maze.

Once the stadium's built, the NI fans would use it anyway.

If the shinners lifted their veto, the GAA stands more chance of getting the stadium we need.
If the shinners don't lift their veto, then its clear that the GAA's interests are once again being ignored by Sinn Fein.

Snatter, my point is that the DUP have already agreed to the conflict centre - Poots was also on the all party working group. As for the GAA's interests being ignored, well this lifelong GAA member doesn't think we another stadium is needed, but if it puts a few unionist and OWC noses out of joint I'll go along for the ride.

[SammyG]

Assuming that this PWC report stands up to scrutiny,

It doesn't.

then the only straw the rejectionists can now clutch at is the issue of the Conflict Centre.

Truely pathetic.

The shinners have done this despite the GAA making it clear that they strongly want this stadium.
As indeed have the IRFU and to a lesser extent the IFA.

Yet again you make this assertion. And yet again I ask can you please show us anything that backs this up, press release, statement on website, interview by Nicky Brennan, anything?

Surely it would be better for all three sports if the issue of the conflict centre was decoupled from the stadium, at least until after it was built.
If the resolution of the conflict centre was shelved for a year or two after the stadium is built, there would be no more grounds for rejectionists to veto the Maze.

There are hiundreds of issues with the Maze (transport, infrastucture, facilities, pubs, hotels, capacity etc). For the millionth time, the terror shrine is not a significant issue (especially as it will be built any way).

Once the stadium's built, the NI fans would use it anyway.

How the fcuk can anybody use something that they can't get to?

If the shinners lifted their veto, the GAA stands more chance of getting the stadium we need.
If the shinners don't lift their veto, then its clear that the GAA's interests are once again being ignored by Sinn Fein.

Interesting that you think there is a link between SF policymakers and the GAA!!! If I'd made a comment like that I'd have got jumped on from a great height.

[saffron sam2]

Even EG, who is ten times the debater you are,

Jeepers, that is probably the worst insult I have ever seen on this board. What could SammyG have done to deserve such abuse?

[his holiness nb]

This is getting tiresome Sammy, the question was in my original post.

And that question was answered saying that it wasn't an issue and you replied that it was an issue and this was a 'fact'.

Stop asking me to re-read my own posts, I know what I meant myself! Jesus and you were giving out about me earlier claiming to know what you think!

I'll stop asking when you stop contradicting yourself.

My previous post clearly shows exactly what I meant by that statement, and that I was not stating it as fact that the stadium being in the maze was a problem.

No it doesn't it says the exact opposite.

To summarise, I do not argue with any of the points being made against the stadium being in the Maze, nor have I ever done so.
I was wondering if the stadium being in the maze was also a problem to some NI fans, hence I asked if it was. If I was sure enough to say its a fact that this was a problem, I wouldnt have asked the question!

Excellent

Then you made a pathetic attempt to twist my words to suggest I was saying for a fact that it was a problem, despite me starting this whole thing by asking IF it was.

I haven't twisted anything. I quoted your whole post, word for word.

Despite my clearly proving this to be untrue,

You've proven nothing of the sort. You've tried to explain what you meant by re-stating the same thing.

you still persist with the argument, whilst ignoring the evidence right in front of your eyes.

Pot and kettle

You know this is untrue and are deliberatly trying to be a pain in the hole rather than admit you took me up wrong.

HOw can I take yuou up wrong? You said it in black and white.

Sammy you have done this several times before, either took someone up wrong or lied, and when proven wrong refused to backtrack.
It shows poor character in my opinion and the sort of sneaky weasly character thats not worthy of debating with.

So you spout shite and when I pull you about it, it's me that has the problem!!! Brilliant you can't beat logic like that.

Even EG, who is ten times the debater you are, is willing to accept if he makes the occasional error, which he rarely does.

I'm happy to admit if I make a mistake but in this case you said something was a 'fact' when it was bullshit.

Grow up for f**k sake.

Pot and kettle again.

Ah I get it now, all this is deliberate, to wind me up. Its becoming clear now.

Either that or you are incredibly stupid.
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt 

[Chrisowc]

I detest the idea of a shrine to these people.  

Just to clarify Chris, as there seems to have been some confusion as to who I was referring to. Which people exactly do you mean?

I mean the people you were talking about.  The Hunger Strikers.

Not as a Northern Ireland fan, but as an ordinary member of the public.  The fact that I do so, does not make me any less enlightened than anyone else.  Nor does it make me a neanderthal.

I was of the opinion that most people from a Unionist background would object to this shrine. I never said anyone who objected to the shrine / centre was less enlightened or neanderthal.

My point was asking would objections to the shrine, or if the centre didnt go ahead, the history of the place, be a reason to stop NI fans wanting to have the stadium there.

I wasnt asking about your opinion on whether the centre was right, I'd presume most NI fans would be against it.

You asked the question would it be the 'less enlightened' people who would object to conflict centre/shrine/whatever.... You then implied that this could be an issue with the 'more neanderthal' members of Northern Ireland's support.

While I do think the hunger strikers should be commemorated, is the idea of the centre here, or even the history of what happened there, a possible reason for the less enlightened members of the NI fans to not wish the stadium to be located here?

I know they may give other reasons, and am not suggesting this is the reason that EG and Sammy are objecting, but it could be in the minds of the more neanderthal members of their support, being that its a place where history took place and heroes (in some peoples eyes) on the republican side were born.

[his holiness nb]

Chris, as I clarified. I did not say that objecting to the centre /shrine would make you neanderthal or less enlightened.
I would fully expect the majority of NI fans to object to this centre.
I said using the objections to the centre as a reason for also objecting to the stadium locating there would be.

Hope that clarifies, but if it helps I will withdraw my comment about people being neanderthal and less enlightened. Perhaps that was a bit harsh.

[Chrisowc]

Fair enough

[snatter]

Chris, as I clarified. I did not say that objecting to the centre /shrine would make you neanderthal or less enlightened.
I would fully expect the majority of NI fans to object to this centre.
I said using the objections to the centre as a reason for also objecting to the stadium locating there would be.

I do think that SF and all shades of Unionism should drop their linkage between Stadium and Conflict Centre.
Lets judge the case for the stadium on its own merits.

If the PWC report stands up to scrutiny (ffs Sammy how about waiting until its published officially, in full before dissing it), then we should proceed with full haste.

Its clear, after years of searching, that Belfast hasn't identified a more suitable location, so lets get on with it.

[Chrisowc]

Chris, as I clarified. I did not say that objecting to the centre /shrine would make you neanderthal or less enlightened.
I would fully expect the majority of NI fans to object to this centre.
I said using the objections to the centre as a reason for also objecting to the stadium locating there would be.

I do think that SF and all shades of Unionism should drop their linkage between Stadium and Conflict Centre.
Lets judge the case for the stadium on its own merits.

Due to SF's stance, the stadium and shrine are inextricably linked.  Although going by Donagh's latest contribution (and he has his finger on the pulse ) this appears to more of a wind up than an actual desire to commemerate their comrades.

[Donagh]

Due to SF's stance, the stadium and shrine are inextricably linked.  Although going by Donagh's latest contribution (and he has his finger on the pulse ) this appears to more of a wind up than an actual desire to commemerate their comrades.

No one does zero sum games better than that section of our community which has bigotry ingrained within their culture, and the rest of us the world over like to revel in a little schedenfraude every time unionism is made to squirm when they are dragged a little bit further out of their sectarian trenches or in the case of OWC, their sectarian cesspit. BTW, the DUP is every bit as much to blame for linking the stadium and conflict centre - it seems that just like every other brand of unionism they are more dedicated to feathering their own nests that reflecting the concerns of the dumb asses that vote of them. 

[Chrisowc]

Thats why I don't vote.

At least you can be proud that your vote helped your own particular brand of muppets stick to their principles and in no way feather their nests for personal gain.

[Donagh]

Thats why I don't vote.

At least you can be proud that your vote helped your own particular brand of muppets stick to their principles and in no way feather their nests for personal gain.

You shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know Chris, will bite you in the arse eventually.

[Chrisowc]

Thats why I don't vote.

At least you can be proud that your vote helped your own particular brand of muppets stick to their principles and in no way feather their nests for personal gain.

You shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know Chris, will bite you in the arse eventually.

The people I don't know who I make assumptions about will bite me on the arse

Do you vote?

[ardmhachaabu]

Due to SF's stance, the stadium and shrine are inextricably linked.  Although going by Donagh's latest contribution (and he has his finger on the pulse ) this appears to more of a wind up than an actual desire to commemerate their comrades.

No one does zero sum games better than that section of our community which has bigotry ingrained within their culture, and the rest of us the world over like to revel in a little schedenfraude every time unionism is made to squirm when they are dragged a little bit further out of their sectarian trenches or in the case of OWC, their sectarian cesspit. BTW, the DUP is every bit as much to blame for linking the stadium and conflict centre - it seems that just like every other brand of unionism they are more dedicated to feathering their own nests that reflecting the concerns of the dumb asses that vote of them. 

Recognise the hypocrisy in this post Donagh?

You are criticising others for being bigoted when you are, well, being bigoted.