Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[stiffler]

But try as I might, I really cannot see any neutral, feasible location which will satify all three sports, or an acceptable "one size fits all" stadium design, so that we will end up with something which in truth satisfies no-one very much, but costs a fortune.

The GAA, IFA and Ulster Rugby have already agreed on a neutral location that satisfys the three sports.

Its clear to say that one is not too happy at sharing resources with the GAA.

[SammyG]

But try as I might, I really cannot see any neutral, feasible location which will satify all three sports, or an acceptable "one size fits all" stadium design, so that we will end up with something which in truth satisfies no-one very much, but costs a fortune.

The GAA, IFA and Ulster Rugby have already agreed on a neutral location that satisfys the three sports.

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense. The GAA decided it would be the Maze and the government told rugby (who aren't going any way) and football to like it or lump it. There was no discussion about whether the site was neutral (it isn't by any measure it is in the middle of a loyalist heartland) and certainly no consideration of the requirements of the various sports.

Its clear to say that one is not too happy at sharing resources with the GAA.

Whats that supposed to mean?

[Evil Genius]

Mr. Sheard is one of the architects, not one of the people responsible for drawing up the business plan and NOT involved in any of the organisations who are responsible for deciding on the location of the stadium. It is their role to design a stadium that will accomodate everyones needs regarding capacity, which according to the statement from Ulster Rygby will have approx 20,000 on the lower teir which will not affect atmosphere.

I'm well aware of Sheard's role i.e. if the politicians come up with the money, he'll build them whatever they want. He's a Businessman, after all, and that's what businessmen do.

You seem to have missed my point, so I'll spell it out to you. Proponents of the Maze invariably point to nice, shiny Computer Generated Images to dazzle us all with the cleverness of their scheme. And if these images are expensively produced, by celebrated designers/Architects, so much the better.

However, I am merely pointing out the deception being inflicted on us of politicians pointing to the "endorsement" of their scheme by Architects who, when speaking candidly in another forum, reveal that they actually think such ideas as are being proposed here are a load of nonsense...    ...unless the money's* too good to turn down!  



* - OUR money, btw.  

[Evil Genius]

But try as I might, I really cannot see any neutral, feasible location which will satify all three sports, or an acceptable "one size fits all" stadium design, so that we will end up with something which in truth satisfies no-one very much, but costs a fortune.

The GAA, IFA and Ulster Rugby have already agreed on a neutral location that satisfys the three sports.

Its clear to say that one is not too happy at sharing resources with the GAA.

"Agreement" is it?

The GAA*, from a position of strength, "agreed" that it would not share any stadium with the other two sports if it were in Belfast; rather, it would only "agree" to share if it were located in their preferred location, and to their design requirement.

Rugby "agreed" on the basis that it will never have to share the stadium with anyone more than once or twice a year, which is no hardship if it keeps the Government sweet enough to go on coughing up the rest of the £8million Grant towards renovating Ravenhill.

And soccer is "agreeing" on the basis that if they're going to be shafted, they might as well bend over and make it as painless as possible.

I suppose if you really insist on believing that soccer's objection is to the principle of "sharing", rather than the wish to avoid being coerced into a scheme which will likely prove seriously harmful to their interests, then there is no way I'm going to change your mind. At least not after countless posts, running for pages and pages. 


* - I suppose I must repeat for the hundredth time that I don't blame the GAA for playing their hand cleverly.

[Deal_Me_In]

Sammy, EG, nifan,

We all know that you (NI soccer fans in general) are not in favour of the maze plans. The government has also made it clear that the proposed money will only be made available for a shared multi purpose stadium that all 3 sporting bodies agree upon in an agreed upon location. The GAA have vetoed any inner city Belfast location leaving the maze the only proposed alternative location.

I am not being hypocritical or anything as i am generally interested in your views. If the IFA were to veto the Maze proposal (as NI fans would wish then to do from my understanding), and no money given to any sporting association for refurbishments, where would NI play intternational matches? Scotland? England? Ravenhill? - unlikely as the rugby pitch is already heavily used and the ground do not meet UEFA requirements. 

My general thinking would be that its better to have a stadium in your own country, be that it is less accessable than an inner city location (less accessable because the majority of NI supporters are from the east of the provience or Belfast), than have to travel abroad for 3-4 hours by plane/boat to watch your team play (I said your because i have no interest in soccer be that NI, ROI etc)

[Donagh]

The GAA have vetoed any inner city Belfast location leaving the maze the only proposed alternative location.

Have they? When was this? I thought it was more a case that they weren't included in the Ormeau proposal. No other proposal that I know of has been put forward as a serious proposition.

[SammyG]

The GAA have vetoed any inner city Belfast location leaving the maze the only proposed alternative location.

Have they? When was this?

At the original Maze planning meetings, there were several options, Titanic Quarter, North Foreshore, Ormeau, Maysfield and Maze. The GAA refused to even discuss any Belfast site and used their veto.

I thought it was more a case that they weren't included in the Ormeau proposal. No other proposal that I know of has been put forward as a serious proposition.

You can keep repeating this but it won't make it true. Durnien has said several times that he will listen to any sport that wants to be included. He is a business man and the more times the ground is used the more money he makes.

[Sky Blue]

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense. The GAA decided it would be the Maze and the government told rugby (who aren't going any way) and football to like it or lump it.

So Ulster Rugby aren't going to the Maze?

Ulster Rugby Statement : Maze Stadium
22 June 2007, 5:03 pm
By Anne Perry

Ulster Rugby CEO Michael Reid today made the following statement regarding recent press coverage regarding the MAZE stadium proposals.

"In light of certain media articles in the last 24 hours I would like to reiterate the position of Ulster Rugby as stated at the NI Assembly DCAL meeting held on Thursday afternoon at Stormont.
I would like to clarify the following points:

1. Ulster Rugby remain committed in principal to a stadium at the Maze / Long Kesh site.

2. Ulster Rugby has been actively involved in talks with the GAA and IFA through two Working Parties; the talks have focused on the Business Plan, Governance and Site Design of the Maze stadium.

3. To alleviate concerns about the crowd being "lost" in the Maze stadium the design team have proposed that the bottom tier of the stadium will hold 19/20 thousand supporters. This is an acceptable solution to Ulster Rugby as we feel a capacity of 19-20 thousand will provide a great atmosphere

4. There are some outstanding issues relating to Governance and the Business Plan for the Maze Stadium but all parties (Ulster Rugby, GAA, IFA) continue to meet with SIB, DCAL and PWC regularly to work towards a mutually satisfactory solution.

5. As stated by the Minister, Edwin Poots, the Maze Stadium is the only option on the table and therefore we are focusing all our efforts into the Maze Stadium. At no time has a business proposal or governance solution been made available in relation to a Belfast Stadium nor have Belfast City Council ever met with a representative from Ulster Rugby.

[snatter]

I thought it was more a case that they weren't included in the Ormeau proposal. No other proposal that I know of has been put forward as a serious proposition.

You can keep repeating this but it won't make it true. Durnien has said several times that he will listen to any sport that wants to be included. He is a business man and the more times the ground is used the more money he makes.

Donagh,

just for the record, Sammy's talking c**k and he knows it.
The GAA have always been excluded from the Ormeau development.
All design proposals have always been for a soccer sized pitch.

Here's a repost of a reply I made to Evil on 19th June:

Quote from: snatter on June 19, 2007, 10:15:58 PM

No coincidence there - they never wanted a gaelic player about the place.

This is a disgraceful lie. Either produce your evidence that the people behind the Durnien proposal and its supporters - including Nationalist councillors and the local SDLP MP - are anti-GAA, or withdraw it.

My evidence?
The plot is allegedly too small to accomodate gaelic games.
My source? None other than yourself earlier in this thread. As you said yourself

"And in any case, the proposed site is probably not big enough to stage Gaelic games,"

How therefore can my statement possibly be a lie?

If you deliberately develop a stadium on a plot that is too small to accomodate gaelic football, then it is clear that the development does not cater for gaelic. Pretty obvious I'd say.

Nowhere did I say that anybody was anti-GAA.

What I did say and I repeat:

afaik, at no stage were the GAA invited or approached in any way about the Durnian proposal.
To ignore the largest spectator sport in NI, and all the revenue they bring,  shows that they never had any intention of GAA involvment.
From the outset the Durnian proposal had a 22k capacity - much too low to be of any use to the GAA (again see 2005 figures), but just big enough to recreate another mini Windsor).

Oh, and as if you were in any doubt, and as Evil Genus has already pointed out in this thread - the Ormeau developemnt isn't (and never was) big enough to accommodate gaelic games.
Yep, despite being surrounded by open parkland, they managed to select a plot that was just too small.
No coincidence there - they never wanted a gaelic player about the place.

I make no apology for describing the durnien proposal an "orange dome".
If you deliberately exclude the most attended sport in Northern Ireland, then, rightly or wrongly, that is what it will be perceived as.
It is the exclusion of a whole section of the northern irish community that is the real disgrace.
Especially if the council ever gifted them 10's of millions.

Imho, this developer has made a strategic mistake in not attempting to court the GAA and persudade them that Ormeau (or another site) are suitable. They have missed out on an opportunity to avail of millions of once-off funding.

I can't explain why the development company has apparently chosen not to involve the GAA, only it can.

[Donagh]

The GAA have vetoed any inner city Belfast location leaving the maze the only proposed alternative location.

Have they? When was this?

At the original Maze planning meetings, there were several options, Titanic Quarter, North Foreshore, Ormeau, Maysfield and Maze. The GAA refused to even discuss any Belfast site and used their veto.

I thought it was more a case that they weren't included in the Ormeau proposal. No other proposal that I know of has been put forward as a serious proposition.

You can keep repeating this but it won't make it true. Durnien has said several times that he will listen to any sport that wants to be included. He is a business man and the more times the ground is used the more money he makes.

Have you the minutes of these meetings?

[Evil Genius]

Fao Donagh, Snatter, Deal Me In etc.

How many times does it have to be said, but the Maze and Ormeau are not "either/or" projects, so need to be considered separately, rather than conflated.

I couldn't be arsed searching the exacts dates/timetable, but the sequence of events was as follows.

The Government decided (without consultation, btw) that it was going to fund a multi-sports stadium on a single site, but only on condition that all three sports came on board together.

They studied a number of different sites, eventually coming down to four - three in Belfast, plus the Maze. The GAA used their veto to exclude any site in Belfast, so this left the Maze. Now as it happens, had soccer been in a strong enough position to exercise a veto, I'm sure it would have vetoed the Maze (i.e. insisted on Belfast), but they are in no position to say this. Rugby couldn't give a stuff, since they won't be playing more than 1 or 2 games a season at the Maze (max), but went along since they don't want to piss off the Government over an £8 million grant to refurbish Ravenhill (where they'll continue to play 95% of their matches).

Entirely separately and at a later date, a number of private developers (possibly prompted by the Maze issue), came to the conclusion that there was a gap in the market for a multi-use arena in Belfast, whether in addition to the Maze, or instead (should the Maze not get built).
Belfast City Council considered these and selected Durnien's proposal for Ormeau. The attraction of this was that (unlike the Maze), neither the Ratepayer nor the Taxpayer was going to have to pay any money towards it (i.e. Durnien would borrow the money to build and pay it back from the procceds of operating it - hopefully leaving a profit)
BCC would be required to make a site available, but Ormeau is acceptable, since it has no value due to the impossibility of getting permission even to sell it (never mind develop it) and the particular location sought by Durnien is little used, but next to an existing Leisure Centre.

As regards the use to which Ormeau would be made, Durnien is a Developer, so he doesn't give a damn what activities are staged, he will accept those which are likely to be most profitable. As such, he has never ruled out GAA, but realistically, he knows this will not happen since the GAA has made it abundantly clear that it has no intention whatever of playing in any Belfast stadium (other than Casement) so there is no point "knocking on a locked door". ).
(There is one further complication, which is that even if the GAA were amenable, they would require a bigger playing area and seating capacity, which would push up building costs etc, which would affect the profitability of the whole scheme).

Consequently, Durnien has come up with a proposed design which depends primarily for its hoped-for profitability on Greyhound Racing, which can be staged 3 or 4 times a week. However, on its own, this (presumably) would be insufficient to repay the construction costs and turn a profit, so he's looking for additional activities. And of these, by far the most likely is soccer, but only since GAA won't consider Belfast and Rugby is happy where it is.

Therefore, neither Durnien, BCC or the IFA is setting out to "do down" the GAA over Ormeau; it and the Maze are two entirely different proposals and should be considered as such.

Of course, if Durnien were somehow to entice the IFA into Ormeau, that would finish the Maze. However, he and BCC cannot be blamed should that happen, since neither of them has any responsibility towards the Maze, nor were they the ones who insisted on a shared stadium. Neither do they intend spending millions of taxpayers/public money on a scheme for which there is absolutely no evidence of taxpayers' demand - not that they were ever asked.

And if anyone from the GAA feels aggrieved by the IFA suiting themselves and moving to Ormeau, thereby blocking their use of the Maze, they should remember that there is absolutely nothing to stop the Government from changing its own rules and dividing  the Maze money between the three sports as "compensation".

That way, all three sports would get a massive boost, each would be able to make the arrangements that best suit themselves, the taxpayer would be saved millions on a potential White Elephant, and the Maze could be turned over for much needed affordable, cross-community housing, whilst also engendering hundreds of millions of pounds capable of being spent on schools and hospitals etc.

Can somebody please tell me what is wrong with any of that?

[SammyG]

The GAA have vetoed any inner city Belfast location leaving the maze the only proposed alternative location.

Have they? When was this?

At the original Maze planning meetings, there were several options, Titanic Quarter, North Foreshore, Ormeau, Maysfield and Maze. The GAA refused to even discuss any Belfast site and used their veto.

I thought it was more a case that they weren't included in the Ormeau proposal. No other proposal that I know of has been put forward as a serious proposition.

You can keep repeating this but it won't make it true. Durnien has said several times that he will listen to any sport that wants to be included. He is a business man and the more times the ground is used the more money he makes.

Have you the minutes of these meetings?

No we've been refused access to them (despite several FoI requests), however the details were revealed by Tony Whithead of the SIB, in answer to questions at several fans forums.

[Donagh]

No we've been refused access to them (despite several FoI requests), however the details were revealed by Tony Whithead of the SIB, in answer to questions at several fans forums.

So it's very possible you're talking rubbish then?

[SouthArmaghBandit]

"but Ormeau is acceptable, since it has no value due to the impossibility of getting permission"

I'd like to see you get permission for a stadium there! The locals have deep pockets and will fight it tooth and nail for years.

[SammyG]

No we've been refused access to them (despite several FoI requests), however the details were revealed by Tony Whithead of the SIB, in answer to questions at several fans forums.

So it's very possible you're talking rubbish then?

Well Whitehead repeated it on several occaisions and it has never been challenged by either Poots and Co or the GAA, so I'd be very surprised if it was rubbish. Whitehead is a cheerleader for the Maze so he's hardly likely to make statements that will damage the Maze, if they're untrue.