Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[GweylTah]

No business case for the Maze then, after ALL this time.

Ain't gonna happen, of course that wouldn't stop Belfast City Council developing a stadium, with private backing, in a suitable location, or the existing venues and grass-roots sport can be invested in instead.

Good news.

[snatter]

No business case for the Maze then, after ALL this time.

Ain't gonna happen, of course that wouldn't stop Belfast City Council developing a stadium, with private backing, in a suitable location, or the existing venues and grass-roots sport can be invested in instead.

Good news.

Gwaytah,

its been said a million times befoer.
All three sports have an equal veto on any Govt backed shared space stadium proposal.
Any one of them can walk away at any time should it wish.
The Govt ahve made it clear that if they choose to do so, they will not get Govt assistance in developing an alternative stadium.

If Belfast City Council wish to subsidis any privately developed stadium, it had better make provision for GAA, or they're be one hell of a row.
Excluding the GAA from a publicy subsideised stadium won't be supported by nationalist councillors in Belfast, or their parties HQ's either.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

No business case for the Maze then, after ALL this time.

Ain't gonna happen, of course that wouldn't stop Belfast City Council developing a stadium, with private backing, in a suitable location, or the existing venues and grass-roots sport can be invested in instead.

Good news.

The planners might though!

[nifan]

Paisley is likely more concerned about having a GAA match on a Sunday in his vicinity, though ive no doubt him and marty will end up taking one in together soon.

[SammyG]

To be honest its pointless debating this one with you any further. All Clones attending GAA fans laugh at you guys whinging about going from Belfast to teh MAze, but you guys think it will be some sort of epic journey, taking half a day to get there.
I guess only a qualified traffic engineer would be able to accurately study journey times of those who would use any new stadium.

Sorry I missed this earlier, a qualified traffic engineer (in fact several) have looked at the proposals and have all deemed them to be unworkable, that is the whole point of this discussion. I'm not opposed to the Maze on some point of principle (in fact when it was first mentioned I supported it), I'm opposed because it won't work.

News to me.
Can you give me a link to their findings?
What were their assumptions on attendance numbers, the origin of most fans, and their mode of travel?

Still waiting............

See my post a couple of pages ago. I presume you've read it after your rant at me for missing a post yesterday. 

[stiffler]

from bbc.co.uk/ni:

DUP mixed messages over stadium 

One of the notorious H-blocks would be retained if the plan goes ahead
DUP minister Nigel Dodds says a stadium at the former Maze Prison site would not be acceptable if the complex also contained "a shrine to IRA terrorism".
He said unionists would not support the project if the green light was also given for a conflict transformation centre retaining one of the H-Blocks.



Has this got anything to do with the unionist support for a stadium for belfast?

[SammyG]

from bbc.co.uk/ni:

DUP mixed messages over stadium 

One of the notorious H-blocks would be retained if the plan goes ahead
DUP minister Nigel Dodds says a stadium at the former Maze Prison site would not be acceptable if the complex also contained "a shrine to IRA terrorism".
He said unionists would not support the project if the green light was also given for a conflict transformation centre retaining one of the H-Blocks.



Has this got anything to do with the unionist support for a stadium for belfast?

The stadium for Belfast has support from right across the community and support from both in and outside Belfast. It has absolutely nothing to do with political or relegious persuasion.

[Evil Genius]

its been said a million times befoer.
All three sports have an equal veto on any Govt backed shared space stadium proposal.
Any one of them can walk away at any time should it wish.
The Govt ahve made it clear that if they choose to do so, they will not get Govt assistance in developing an alternative stadium.

If Belfast City Council wish to subsidis any privately developed stadium, it had better make provision for GAA, or they're be one hell of a row.
Excluding the GAA from a publicy subsideised stadium won't be supported by nationalist councillors in Belfast, or their parties HQ's either.

Snatter,
This post arrives at the very heart of your case, so rather than become sidetracked by all the specific issues around the Maze etc, I will use just this post to argue why I disagree profoundly with your stance on this whole topic.

As I see it, you are arriving at the wrong conclusion, since you are starting from the wrong point. That is, you are conflating two proposals (the Maze and Ormeau) which, although related, are both separate.

For me, the key to solving this conundrum is to address each stadium on its own merits. After all, when the Government first raised the subject of a multi-sports stadium for NI, paid for from public funds, there was no mention of the Durnien (Ormeau Park) project. Instead, we are led to believe from what they have disclosed publicly of the project, that they started with a blank piece of paper as regards location, and eventually settled on 4 possible sites - three in Belfast, plus the Maze.

When these were presented to the three main sports, the GAA indicated (as is their right) that they weren't willing to countenance any stadium in Belfast. Therefore, since the Government had committed itself to an "all or none" approach, the Maze was it. Now as it happens, I think this unfair, since in practical terms, the IFA is unable to exercise any like veto (they're skint), and the URFU frankly doesn't care either way, since they will not be staging any more than one or two games per season at the Maze, if that. (In the meantime, since they are awaiting the last of a Government grant to refurbish Ravenhill, they will go along with whatever the Government says)

And when you examine further the reason why the Government has adopted this "All or None" approach, it simply doesn't stand up, either. To borrow a phrase, their (stated) motive is "Shared Space". Now in itself, this is an entirely laudable and desirable outcome. However, no-one has been able to come with a satisfactory explanation as to why combining all three sports in one stadium will lead to such an outcome. After all, the three different "constituencies" for GAA, Rugby and Soccer will never be attending the stadium at the same time, for the same events; in that respect, they are "ships that pass in the night".
Indeed, you as good as accepted that point when you posted:

"Whilst agreeing with you that there won't initially be much mixing of the tribes at the different sports' events, it is feasible that, in time, both tribes may start to attend what was previously regarded as predominantly the other sides sports"

As I see it, by taking a fraction of the money being spent on the Maze, the Government could achieve much greater cross-community sports participation etc by allocating it to the three sports only on condition that it be spent on projects which demonstrate this ideal. For example, money could be made available for coaching in schools, parks, leisure centres, public playing fields etc so long as they invited members of clubs from all three sports to attend. Or clubs could be given grants to send kids on combined sports tours together. Tickets for events in one sport could be made available at subsidised rates to clubs from the other two sports. Multi-sports festivals involving all three codes could be organised during school holidays, or at Bank Holidays etc. With a bit of creativity, there are any number of schemes which could be devised which would physically bering people together in a sporting environment. But instead, we are expected to spend money on a stadium and "cross our fingers".

Anyhow, whether you agree on the effectiveness of the Maze as achieving "Shared Space" or not, it is only fair that the stadium should also be acceptable to all three sports as regards their own sporting needs. Now as I said, GAA seems happy enough and Rugby isn't much bothered either way, since it hardly affects them.

However, having addressed the proposal and heard what the Government has to say, the overwhelming opinion within soccer is that not only does it not meet our needs, but it is actively "wrong" for us in very many aspects. I don't want to rehash what these aspects are (Design, Capacity, Infrastructure, Access and above all Location), but the more we look at it, the more we are convinced it is a bad deal for soccer. And our fears are further exacerbated by every objective study into the issue to date - the most recent of these being the University of Ulster Report.

Consequently, there is a real prospect that if, under Government pressure, we sign up to a long Lease to play our games at the Maze, and the crowds are insufficient to pay our rent, then this could bankrupt the sport. And for all that we have a duty towards the concept of Shared Space etc, it is entirely unreasonable for any Government to hold a gun to our head and demand that we commit suicide, merely in order to suit another of their "Vanity Projects".

And that, without resort to anti-GAA sniping, or references to politics, or neutral areas, or any other of the more controversial aspects, is why the overwhelming majority of soccer fans are opposed to the Maze.


This then brings us separately to the Durnien (Ormeau) Proposal. Soccer desperately needs a new international standard stadium. We do not have the money for one, nor is there any realistic prospect of raising the money ourselves. In such circumstances, you might have thought that the Government coming along and promising to build a new Stadium for "free" at the Maze, which we could use, would be the "Answer to a Maiden's Prayer".
However, for the reasons alluded to above, it is anything but.

Therefore, when a number of private developers spotted what they saw as a "gap in the market" (i.e. for a multi-sports arena in Belfast) and approached BCC, we have a right to be interested.

For its part, BCC considered three separate proposals, and concluded that Durnien's Ormeau Park could be feasible. Durnien's basic premise was that if BCC allowed him access to a part of Ormeau Park beside the Leisure Centre, he would build a multi-use arena, at no cost to either the ratepayer of taxpayer, and recoup his investment by operating the arena.
Such a proposal is not actually costing BCC any money, since (unlike the Maze) the land has no intrinsic value whatever, since they would never get permission to develop it for commercial, or even social, purposes. Instead, all they would be doing would be allowing the land to be used for one leisure purpose (arena) instead of another (parkland).

Now you are concerned that there may be no place for GAA in Durnien's scheme. However, there is no room for angling, athletics, motor-sports, swimming, hockey, tennis, pigeon-racing, or a million and one other sports and pasttimes carried out in NI.
Nor does there have to be, since Durnien is not asking for any public money to be spent on his scheme.
(Besides which, the GAA have made it abundantly clear that they have no interest in a new stadium in Belfast. That is their right, but they cannot complain about the consequences of a decision which they've taken of their own free will.)

Of course, the GAA may complain that if the IFA doesn't commit commercial suicide agree to sign up to the Maze, then the GAA will lose out on the benefit they might have received by seeing the Maze built.
But aside from the fact that the IFA can hardly be expected to compromise its own interests merely for the sake of another sport, what this overlooks is that it is the Government which bound itself when it adopted the "All or None" approach, so it can just as easily unbind itself.

That is, instead of spending £100m+ on a speculative project which is looking increasingly unviable commercially (Millennium Dome, anyone?), there is no good reason why it cannot do what I and many others have suggested as an alternative.

Namely, allow the money to be spent by the sports organisations themselves, on condition that they dedicate it to schemes and activities which have a clear cross-community benefit.

In fact, I would go further and say that even half the Maze money would produce a huge boost to the wellbeing of all three codes, thereby leaving a very significant amount to be spent on pressing social needs, such as schools and hospitals. That way, the entire population of NI would benefit, not just the sports fans, which is fitting, since it is our money they're spending, after all.

One further benefit would accrue, which alone would produce the greatest benefit of all. Namely, by abandoning the stadium at the Maze, not only could this allow a thousand much-needed houses to be built on the site itself, but this would produce potentially hundreds of millions of pounds of extra revenue for the Government (i.e. from the Developers), which could be used to build further housing.

By insisting that all such housing will only be allowed if it is made available equally to both communities in NI, the Government will be achieving more in practical terms for the concept of "Shared Space" than a thousand sports stadia could ever produce.

And if that's not a good note on which to sign off from this thread, I don't know what is!

Onwards and Upwards!

(And Bollocks to the Maze  )

[An Fear Rua]

are any of the tabloids serialising EGs book?

[Evil Genius]

are any of the tabloids serialising EGs book?

I've no idea. I don't read the Tabloids, since they don't deal with serious discussion, whole sentences or even big words.

Rather than just join in the endless, repetitive and essentially pointless level of slagging to which this thread has degenerated, I thought I'd take the time to write a considered post, since the topic is important to me and I think it merits serious attention. I had also hoped to elicit a serious response from other shades of opinion.

Do you have a serious opinion on what I posted? I'd be interested to hear from you if you do, since that was what I thought Discussion Boards were for.

Otherwise, you risk looking a bit of a tit if the above comment is the best you can come up with...

[stiffler]

-Block stadium swipe 'pointless' 

One of the notorious H-blocks would be retained if the plan goes ahead
Culture minister Edwin Poots has dismissed criticism by DUP colleague Nigel Dodds of the planned stadium at the former Maze prison site.
Mr Dodds said unionists would not support it if the green light was also given for a conflict transformation centre retaining one of the H-Blocks.

The North Belfast MP warned of an "IRA shrine", but Mr Poots said the H-Blocks are listed buildings and here to stay.

The Lagan Valley MLA said a stadium would take the focus from the H-Blocks.

"If people don't want any development at the Maze, those maintained structures will still be there, irrespective of whether there's a stadium developed there," he told Radio Ulster's Inside Politics.


The plans for the Maze stadium
"There's far greater potential for a shrine to be developed if that's the only thing left of the site."

A 35,000-seater stadium for soccer, GAA and rugby is planned for the Maze/Long Kesh site, but opponents argue the stadium should be built in Belfast instead.

[GweylTah]

Well said, Evil Genius, a well thought out contribution and hard to argue with though, as I've said before, you're a better person than me, I couldn't be bothered wasting the energy to put forward such detailed arguments when you just get spewed with insults and ignorance from serial closed minds and prepared scripts.

[snatter]

At some point in the coming weeks, the architects (HOK) will unveil the finalised stadium plans.
The following statement is notable in that it's the first to shed light on the actual design.
No mention of SammyG's favourite moving stands, instead it looks like multiple tiers will be used to make the stadium look less empty instead.


http://www.emeraldrugby.com/news_detail.asp?id=3117

Ulster rugby statement on Maze Stadium
27/06/2007 - 02/07/2007

By Anne Perry


Ulster Rugby CEO Michael Reid today made the following statement regarding recent press coverage regarding the MAZE stadium proposals.

"In light of certain media articles in the last 24 hours I would like to reiterate the position of Ulster Rugby as stated at the NI Assembly DCAL meeting held on Thursday afternoon at Stormont.
I would like to clarify the following points:

1. Ulster Rugby remain committed in principal to a stadium at the Maze / Long Kesh site.

2. Ulster Rugby has been actively involved in talks with the GAA and IFA through two Working Parties; the talks have focused on the Business Plan, Governance and Site Design of the Maze stadium.

3. To alleviate concerns about the crowd being "lost" in the Maze stadium the design team have proposed that the bottom tier of the stadium will hold 19/20 thousand supporters. This is an acceptable solution to Ulster Rugby as we feel a capacity of 19-20 thousand will provide a great atmosphere

4. There are some outstanding issues relating to Governance and the Business Plan for the Maze Stadium but all parties (Ulster Rugby, GAA, IFA) continue to meet with SIB, DCAL and PWC regularly to work towards a mutually satisfactory solution.

5. As stated by the Minister, Edwin Poots, the Maze Stadium is the only option on the table and therefore we are focusing all our efforts into the Maze Stadium. At no time has a business proposal or governance solution been made available in relation to a Belfast Stadium nor have Belfast City Council ever met with a representative from Ulster Rugby.

[T Fearon]

WTF is the debate on this issue continuing?

Consider the following

1.The Maze/Long Kesh has won an unprecedented unanimous agreement from IFA, GAA, and URFU

2.The couple of dozen OWC Whingers allied to a bunch of meglomaniacal micro economists from Jordanstown have failed, I repreat failed, to identify one viable alternative Belfast location.

3.The plans have been drawn up, contractors identified etc,so ffs get the ball rolling at the Maze now

[scottish-dub]

they should have built it on the outskirtd of dublin