Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[snatter]

The relevance was that Evil Genus had drawn attention to what  he perceived to be small attendances at teh Antrim v Derry match. He surmised that the GAA would have no need for a large capacity.

I had to highlight the full attendance 2005 figures, and in doing so, I wished to highlight that Evil Genus's problem with capacity possibly lay in the inability of NI soccer to market itself and get its support base to actually turn up and watch a match.

Wrong. I made no comment whatever on the attendance at the Antrim v Derry, or any other GAA match. If the GAA considers that the Maze is appropriate for their crowds at the matches they allocate to it, then good for them. I am merely arguing the case for my sport.

As for the Gaa crowd figures you have quoted from 2005, I've not bothered to check the figures you gave for soccer by way of comparison. However, I think you've screwed up when talking about "the same period" for soccer. Presumably this is because your GAA figures are for the summer of 2005, when soccer has its close season? (I could point to crap GAA crowds in the middle of winter!  )

Not so, I googled NI international attendances for the whole of 2005. Out of fairness I even spent half an hour trying to get he Bass Irish Cup figures. I was shocked how low they were given the media coverage it gets. Feel free to amend if you can dig out any other matches I missed.

The gaa figures are official end of year stats published on their website as a pdf. If you really wanted them, I could dig around.
I only gave big matches because it is these big matches presumably that would be played in a big stadium.
Many winter nfl matches might be lucky to get 5 to 10k.

[SammyG]

Apologies, my arithmetic, IFA big match combined attendances (as shown in my earlier posts) should have been 47k, not 37k. Still way short of 500k, but wrong nonetheless.

More meaningless bullshit that totally ignores the facts.

Of course the England (and possbily Wales) figures would have been higher.

Correct

Last week SammyG reckoned that NI's natural support was itro 20/22k. Tonight he had it around 3/5k above the 2005 figures, ie max 18k.

When did I say anything about an 18K capacity? Sorry to get personal but I've got to ask are you on glue?

I believe he's undereestimating in order to scupper the MAze.

For the millionth time the issues with the MAze have nothing to do with capacity. It wouldn't matter if the capacity was 10K or 100K it would still be unworkable.

By highlighting the figures, I've being trying to draw out some sort of inner belief within you guys that you can actually fill the Maze.

No one will fill the Maze because it is NOT POSSIBLE to get 30-40K people to the Maze and back again.

You can't have it both ways - be so insignificant as to not be able to use the Maze, or be so important that all plans have to be done your way, or not at all.

Christ almighty you really couldn't make this shite up. The GAA are the only people calling for their way or no way, not the IFA. Also I repeat again CAPACITY IS NOT AN ISSUE.

That's what I've been trying to get at.

So you've made up a straw man argument and even though it's been refuted you contniue to discuss it. Brilliant, you really can't fault logic like that.

[GweylTah]

Snatter's rather worked-up by this matter - either on a wind-up, a vested interest, or in a panic (rather like Minister Poots) that the whole thing's about to be exposed (by experiened professional economists and planners) as an unviable and fraudulent and monumental disaster-in-waiting.

[snatter]

Quote from: snatter on Today at 11:42:18 PM
Apologies, my arithmetic, IFA big match combined attendances (as shown in my earlier posts) should have been 47k, not 37k. Still way short of 500k, but wrong nonetheless.

More meaningless bullshit that totally ignores the facts.

sammy,

what's bullshit and what's facts?

In my world, official attendances are facts.
I can't see bullshit here, only facts.

Feel free to navigate into the real world and prove / disprove these facts as you see fit.
I won't stay up waiting.

[SammyG]

Apparently this development was done using the same sort of plans that snatter has for the Maze  

[SammyG]

Quote from: snatter on Today at 11:42:18 PM
Apologies, my arithmetic, IFA big match combined attendances (as shown in my earlier posts) should have been 47k, not 37k. Still way short of 500k, but wrong nonetheless.

More meaningless bullshit that totally ignores the facts.

sammy,

what's bullshit and what's facts?

In my world, official attendances are facts.
I can't see bullshit here, only facts.

Feel free to navigate into the real world and prove / disprove these facts as you see fit.
I won't stay up waiting.

The attendance figures are bullshit because you are refusing to factor in the FACT that half the ground is closed, due to a mixture of Government and IFA incompetence and new UEFA regulations. This has been explained to you several times but you  choose to ignore it. Had the capacity been available we would have had between 20 and 25K for all home matches. What would the attendance be at Ulster GAA matches if they were forced to be all-seater, with good line of sight for all spectators, provision for 'away' supporters etc?

[snatter]

Snatter's rather worked-up by this matter - either on a wind-up, a vested interest, or in a panic (rather like Minister Poots) that the whole thing's about to be exposed (by experiened professional economists and planners) as an unviable and fraudulent and monumental disaster-in-waiting

Good grief! Are the telepathists moving in on me as well?

I thought I was merely attempting to explore the reasons why so many of you guys are so frenzied in your opposition to a shared space multi sports stadium, accepatable to the governing bodies of all three main sports bodies, deliverable before the 2012 olympics.

I thought you would welcome an all too rare attempt at balancing the debate.
After all, the voice of the GAA fan isn't heard too often in this debate, despite having the largest attendances by far.

No sense of panic or being wound up here I assure you.
Thanks for your concern.
Keep studying the telepathy.

[Evil Genius]

No coincidence there - they never wanted a gaelic player about the place.

This is a disgraceful lie. Either produce your evidence that the people behind the Durnien proposal and its supporters - including Nationalist councillors and the local SDLP MP - are anti-GAA, or withdraw it.

Durnien is a developer who is solely concerned with making a profit: that's what developers do. He feels he's seen a gap in the market for a multi-use sports stadium in Belfast, whereby if BCC permits a section of its land (currently parkland) to be used for alternative leisure purposes, he can build a stadium without needing public subsidy and get his money back (with a hoped-for profit) from the operating of it. And the city of Belfast gets a new facility.

As such, Durnien frankly doesn't care which events are staged. However, since the GAA has made it abundantly clear that they are not interested in another stadium in addition to Casement anywhere in the city, they are simply not going to come on board. And whilst no-one is blaming the GAA for deciding that, neither can you blame Durnien for it, either.

Consequently, it appears Durnien hopes for Greyhound Racing, presumably staged 2 or 3 evenings a week year-round, to provide the bulk of the stadium's revenue, with additional income from soccer, rugby, pop concerts and God knows what else.

[SammyG]

I thought I was merely attempting to explore the reasons why so many of you guys are so frenzied in your opposition to a shared space multi sports stadium, accepatable to the governing bodies of all three main sports bodies, deliverable before the 2012 olympics.

Who is against any of those things?

I thought you would welcome an all too rare attempt at balancing the debate.
After all, the voice of the GAA fan isn't heard too often in this debate, despite having the largest attendances by far.

That would be interesting. When are you going to start?

[snatter]

Quote from: snatter on Today at 11:42:18 PM
Apologies, my arithmetic, IFA big match combined attendances (as shown in my earlier posts) should have been 47k, not 37k. Still way short of 500k, but wrong nonetheless.

More meaningless bullshit that totally ignores the facts.

sammy,

what's bullshit and what's facts?

In my world, official attendances are facts.
I can't see bullshit here, only facts.

Feel free to navigate into the real world and prove / disprove these facts as you see fit.
I won't stay up waiting.

The attendance figures are bullshit because you are refusing to factor in the FACT that half the ground is closed, due to a mixture of Government and IFA incompetence and new UEFA regulations. This has been explained to you several times but you  choose to ignore it. Had the capacity been available we would have had between 20 and 25K for all home matches. What would the attendance be at Ulster GAA matches if they were forced to be all-seater, with good line of sight for all spectators, provision for 'away' supporters etc?

They're not bullshit, they're official published attendance figures.
I accept that windsor is a decrepit, half santioned dump and that it is not allowed to hold more.

I contend that with 45k NI jersies sold, your fanbase is more than capable of making a sizeable dent in any 35k stadium.
If Tyrone V Armagh can get 65k, surely you guys can hit 30k no problem?
What's wrong with your confidence?

[SammyG]

I contend that with 45k NI jersies sold, your fanbase is more than capable of making a sizeable dent in any 35k stadium.
If Tyrone V Armagh can get 65k, surely you guys can hit 30k no problem?
What's wrong with your confidence?

This is the last time that I'm going to repeat this. I'll put it in block capitals in bold, if you still choose to ignore it then I give up.

CAPACITY IS NOT THE ISSUE

[snatter]

The relevance was that Evil Genus had drawn attention to what  he perceived to be small attendances at teh Antrim v Derry match. He surmised that the GAA would have no need for a large capacity.

I had to highlight the full attendance 2005 figures, and in doing so, I wished to highlight that Evil Genus's problem with capacity possibly lay in the inability of NI soccer to market itself and get its support base to actually turn up and watch a match.

Wrong. I made no comment whatever on the attendance at the Antrim v Derry, or any other GAA match. If the GAA considers that the Maze is appropriate for their crowds at the matches they allocate to it, then good for them. I am merely arguing the case for my sport.

As for the Gaa crowd figures you have quoted from 2005, I've not bothered to check the figures you gave for soccer by way of comparison. However, I think you've screwed up when talking about "the same period" for soccer. Presumably this is because your GAA figures are for the summer of 2005, when soccer has its close season? (I could point to crap GAA crowds in the middle of winter!  )

Evil Genus,

you're right it wasn't you, but GweylTah who made the comments. apologies - this thread is getting a bit hectic for one lone gaa man to stand up against the owc tide at the minute.

Regardless, it in no detracts from my reply to Sammy - I had to give GweylTah fully balanced figures to prove that the GAA could easily utilise the Maze.

[snatter]

I contend that with 45k NI jersies sold, your fanbase is more than capable of making a sizeable dent in any 35k stadium.
If Tyrone V Armagh can get 65k, surely you guys can hit 30k no problem?
What's wrong with your confidence?

This is the last time that I'm going to repeat this. I'll put it in block capitals in bold, if you still choose to ignore it then I give up.

CAPACITY IS NOT THE ISSUE

It is with GweylTah, as evidenced earlier in this thread.
Somebody by the name of SammyG got pretty heated over capacity as well.
He kept denying reality, thinking that HOK weren't going to design a dual capacity 35k/42k stadium. Silly boy.

He gopt so worked up he kept referring to official attendance figures as bullshit.

[Evil Genius]

Out of interest, in your scenario, should the amount given to each sport be
1. equal, irrespective of attendances and fanbase.
2. calculated in accordance with need, ie directly proportional to the crowds that each sport attracts
3. related to the development cost of each stadium, bearing in mind that GAA stadia are proportionally more expensive to build.

Frankly, I'm not bothered which of those methods one chooses, or some other. I would be quite happy to leave it to an independent panel to determine. This is because the Maze will unquestionably cost over £100million of taxpayers' money. If we were to take half of that - say £50 million - then any reasonable share for soccer would be adequate either to get Ormeau Park off the ground, or purchase/re-develop Windsor, or upgrade Blanchflower Park etc to suit the needs of soccer.

And when GAA and rugby receive their share, I will be entirely pleased for both those sports.

Most of all, as a taxpayer, I will be delighted for my fellow taxpayers for the considerable saving we will all make from not being saddled with "NI's Millennium Dome".

[SammyG]

Somebody by the name of SammyG got pretty heated over capacity as well.
He kept denying reality, thinking that HOK weren't going to design a dual capacity 35k/42k stadium. Silly boy.

Here you go again with the bullshit. The issue of the 'moving stands' has nothing to do with the capcity it is to do with the fact that there is no plan and no budget to build stands that move and no other stadia that have moving stands. It wouldn't matter if you were talking about 10K/20K or 35k/42K or 75K/100K it still won't work.

Silly boy indeed.