Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[GweylTah]

Gweyltah - thats nonsense. The only reason some gaa people are against the stadium is because we are already well catered for and are not sure if we need another stadium. There's also no way the gaa will agree to a stadium in Belfast - big matches are based around a relaxed atmosphere before the game and each possible location in Belfast would mean having to pass close to loyalist areas and there would be the potential for attacks/trouble.

I stand by my point - with the GAA and supporters, it's either not wanted or not needed and would hardly ever be used, yet it effectively holds the whole thing to ransom.

It is mean-spirited in the extreme, and will be a horrensous waste of money (hundreds of millions of pounds of all of our money down the drain) when there are easier solutions and much more deserving causes to be addressed in our society.

[snatter]

Quote from: snatter on Today at 10:18:37 PM
No Sammy,

go back and read again - the design specifications were all agreed.
How can the design specifications be agreed if they haven't even been written yet?

Says who? You?
HTF are you to know what is and isn't written?
Are you some sort of lycra tighted patrolman of the skies, reading all post sent from Stormont to Glasgow?

Common sense dictates that if HOK are producing a detailed design proposal, then they would have to do do it based on a set of written specs.
I can't imagine them doing a detailed design on the basis of word of mouth, flowchart or jigsaw.
As said many times before, the associations are proceeding on the basis of the 35k / 42k capacity.
The architects HOK will produce a detailed design proposal.
It will be costed.
The associations will then individually have to decide to proceed / not proceed based on the design and cost.

Simple really.

[SammyG]

Quote from: snatter on Today at 10:18:37 PM
No Sammy,

go back and read again - the design specifications were all agreed.
How can the design specifications be agreed if they haven't even been written yet?

Says who? You?
HTF are you to know what is and isn't written?
Are you some sort of lycra tighted patrolman of the skies, reading all post sent from Stormont to Glasgow?

Common sense dictates that if HOK are producing a detailed design proposal, then they would have to do do it based on a set of written specs.
I can't imagine them doing a detailed design on word of mouth or a fuzzy idea.
As said many times before, the associations are proceeding on the basis of the 35k / 42k capacity.

You're making this up as you go along. I'll repeat again THERE ARE NO PROPOSALS or PLANS or BUDGET for a variable capacity. I know because we have done numerous Freedom of Information requests, had questions asked in Parliament and in the Assembly, had written answers from the various departments etc etc etc None of these have produced any plans or even as much as a briefing document. You can keep sticking your fingers in your ears and going la la la but that won't make Poots lies become truth.

[snatter]

I stand by my point - with the GAA and supporters, it's either not wanted or not needed and would hardly ever be used, yet it effectively holds the whole thing to ransom.

It is mean-spirited in the extreme, and will be a horrensous waste of money (hundreds of millions of pounds of all of our money down the drain) when there are easier solutions and much more deserving causes to be addressed in our society.

yeah, you're right. I don't believe those attendance figues quoted.
We all know that only about 670 people in a bog somewhere west of lisburn play it.
Yeah like why should any govenrment even begin to start accommodating some backward sport that attracts 500 000 spectators a year.
Lets give it to some sport that I watch that attracts only a tenth of that.
Let those other weirdos stand on a cold wet bank in some bog somewhere. Thats what they like.

Lets just ignore what the GAA HQ and GAA President have said - we all know they're liars and won't use it.

[snatter]

Quote from: snatter on Today at 10:30:50 PM
Quote
Quote from: snatter on Today at 10:18:37 PM
No Sammy,

go back and read again - the design specifications were all agreed.
How can the design specifications be agreed if they haven't even been written yet?

Says who? You?
HTF are you to know what is and isn't written?
Are you some sort of lycra tighted patrolman of the skies, reading all post sent from Stormont to Glasgow?

Common sense dictates that if HOK are producing a detailed design proposal, then they would have to do do it based on a set of written specs.
I can't imagine them doing a detailed design on word of mouth or a fuzzy idea.
As said many times before, the associations are proceeding on the basis of the 35k / 42k capacity.

You're making this up as you go along. I'll repeat again THERE ARE NO PROPOSALS or PLANS or BUDGET for a variable capacity. I know because we have done numerous Freedom of Information requests, had questions asked in Parliament and in the Assembly, had written answers from the various departments etc etc etc None of these have produced any plans or even as much as a briefing document. You can keep sticking your fingers in your ears and going la la la but that won't make Poots lies become truth.

Well Sammy, that says more about you than me, the bbc, all mainstream media, the gaa, in fact everybody associated with this project put together.
If you're right and everybody else is wronmg, fair enough.

Just a word of warning - don't go trawling through that evil google thing - it lies as well.
And you know the day that the design proposal gets published - well everybody knows that's National Tell A Lie Day, and nothing reported then is true.
And that big concrete thing outside Lisburn in 7 years time - thats made of marshmallow and doesn't exist either.

Keep dreaming Sammy.  A nice wee 20k stadium of your own. Thats all Sammy wants for Chrtistmas

[Evil Genius]

Evil Genus,

Quote from: Donagh on Today at 04:26:08 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on Today at 04:01:32 PM

So still no comment on what I actually posted, then.  Roll Eyes


Told you before I don't read your long-winded inane bullshite posts.

To dismiss as "inane" or "bullshit" what you've not even read and to tell the writer to "f**k off" when you have no more proprietorial rights over this Board than anyone else is the very definition of bigotry (in my book).

And the first words of your reply to my last post were......wait for it........

So much bullshit.

fascinatingly hypocritical

No hypocrisy whatever. When I post, Donagh calls it "bullshit", whilst admitting that he hasn't even read it.

I read your post, concluded it was largely bullshit, and stated why.

Feel free to disagree with me, call my posts bullshit, if you like. But don't lump me in with the likes of Donagh, who wilfully refuses to debate anything difficult with which he disagrees, preferring instead just to dismiss it as worthless, whilst personally abusing the poster.

[snatter]

Evil Genus,

Quote from: Donagh on Today at 04:26:08 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on Today at 04:01:32 PM

So still no comment on what I actually posted, then.  Roll Eyes


Told you before I don't read your long-winded inane bullshite posts.

To dismiss as "inane" or "bullshit" what you've not even read and to tell the writer to "f**k off" when you have no more proprietorial rights over this Board than anyone else is the very definition of bigotry (in my book).

And the first words of your reply to my last post were......wait for it........

So much bullshit.

fascinatingly hypocritical

No hypocrisy whatever. When I post, Donagh calls it "bullshit", whilst admitting that he hasn't even read it.

I read your post, concluded it was largely bullshit, and stated why.

Feel free to disagree with me, call my posts bullshit, if you like. But don't lump me in with the likes of Donagh, who wilfully refuses to debate anything difficult with which he disagrees, preferring instead just to dismiss it as worthless, whilst personally abusing the poster.

bullshit

[Evil Genius]

You should have more confidence in yourselves and stop sniping at an organisation that has managed to make their games attractive family days out.
Accept the reality that GAA is currently more popular, move on, and start taking a good hard look at yourselves.

I have been watching NI for more years than I care to remember, including in home crowds of up to 45,000. I have every confidence that with the right stadium, built to the right design and in an appropriate location, NI could greatly increase its crowds. However, NI soccer fans are overwhelmingly in agreement that the Maze proposal is none of these things. Further, it will be hugely expensive, so that even a fraction of soccer's share would suffice either to purchase and rebuild Windsor, or make Ormeau Park (or another stadium in Belfast) financially viable for soccer (and rugby). In which case, I would be more than happy to see the GAA receive its cash share of the cost of the Maze, to do what it wishes.

As for the rest of your post, I have not been "sniping" at the GAA (on this topic, at least!), I admire the way they promote themselves to family audiences, I have no difficulty in accepting that it is more popular in NI than soccer (at least in terms of attendances) and as for taking a good hard look at ourselves, if you could bear to read through my posts on this Board  , I would hope you'll not find I've been blind to the inadequacies of the people who run (misrun, more like) my game.

[snatter]

You should have more confidence in yourselves and stop sniping at an organisation that has managed to make their games attractive family days out.
Accept the reality that GAA is currently more popular, move on, and start taking a good hard look at yourselves.

I have been watching NI for more years than I care to remember, including in home crowds of up to 45,000. I have every confidence that with the right stadium, built to the right design and in an appropriate location, NI could greatly increase its crowds. However, NI soccer fans are overwhelmingly in agreement that the Maze proposal is none of these things. Further, it will be hugely expensive, so that even a fraction of soccer's share would suffice either to purchase and rebuild Windsor, or make Ormeau Park (or another stadium in Belfast) financially viable for soccer (and rugby). In which case, I would be more than happy to see the GAA receive its cash share of the cost of the Maze, to do what it wishes.

As for the rest of your post, I have not been "sniping" at the GAA (on this topic, at least!), I admire the way they promote themselves to family audiences, I have no difficulty in accepting that it is more popular in NI than soccer (at least in terms of attendances) and as for taking a good hard look at ourselves, if you could bear to read through my posts on this Board  , I would hope you'll not find I've been blind to the inadequacies of the people who run (misrun, more like) my game.

Evil Genus,

bullshit 

In which case, I would be more than happy to see the GAA receive its cash share of the cost of the Maze, to do what it wishes......I have no difficulty in accepting that it is more popular in NI than soccer (at least in terms of attendances)

Out of interest, in your scenario, should the amount given to each sport be
1. equal, irrespective of attendances and fanbase.
2. calculated in accordance with need, ie directly proportional to the crowds that each sport attracts
3. related to the development cost of each stadium, bearing in mind that GAA stadia are proportionally more expensive to build.

[stew]

Build her at the maze and they will come. 

Glentoran and ni supporters will have to travel a few mile to see their beloved team play the likes of Tasmania and the faroes and still not win, the GAA get to pick and choose when they play there and they have the most clout gven that they are the biggest draw out of everybody involved.

Oh and I await with baited breath for the time when big rab from owc takes the monument out by the root.................and he isnt joking.

get used to it sammy, the  maze stadium is on the way, i hope you enjoy your new abode.

[Evil Genius]

Evil Genus,

The GAA has made it perfectly clear that they would only consider the Maze

Prove it.
All you have to go on is media speculation and alleged quotes from NIO spokesmen to NI soccer fans.
To have chosen the Maze, the GAA must have considered the Belfast locations before rejecting them. Common sense really.

As for the Maze location, it is itself a compromise on the GAA's part.
Think about it, the GAA could have stormed in and reminded everybody that we are the future anchor tenant, that we will provide most money to maintain the venue in future.
It could have demanded that it be in Armagh, Dungannon, or somewhere handier, on current figures for the VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO WILL EVER USE THE STADIUM.
That it didn't shows a level of grace and compromise lacking in any input from NI soccer fans.

Think even harder - Look at those 2005 attendance figures again.
Do you really expect NI soccer fans to be able to demand that the stadium be located where they want, and to hell with the wishes of those who will use it most?
What makes an insignificant but vocal rump who attract 35k a year really think that they can dictate to an organisation that attracts 500 000 in the same year?
Jumped up little farts, the lot of you. Your over exposure in themedia has you thinking that you're more important than you really are.

OK, I'll re-phrase: the GAA made it clear that they would only accept the Maze from the four options presented to them. (And by the way, whatever their reasons for this, I have nowhere criticised them for using their position of strength to negotiate the deal which best suited them.) As for "Dungannon or somewhere handier", that is a red herring, since the Government never offered anywhere else, and would have refused had the GAA asked, since unlike the Maze, they do not already own suitable sites elsewhere.

As for the position of NI soccer fans, it is nothing to do with "good grace", never mind anti-GAA sentiment. For a whole variety of reasons, too long to go into here, the Maze proposal is very unsuitable to our requirements. And whether we be "anchor tenants" or otherwise, if we sign a long lease as tenants and find that the fans' fears are correct, we will end up with a financial noose round our neck which could throttle us.

Or put it another way, if the Government insisted on siting the stadium in e.g. an area of Belfast where GAA fans would feel unsafe travelling to and from, would you expect the GAA to sign up to that? Of course not. However, the difference is that whilst the GAA is in a position to manage without a new stadium, soccer is not. Therefore, it is only natural that we should resent the Government (not the GAA) for forcing us into a stadium which we don't want and can't afford.

As for our being "jumped up little farts", 90% of the fans I've discussed it with would accept if a modest fraction of the overall cost of the Maze (all our taxes, by the way) were allocated towards soccer, so that we could build a modern, but modest stadium, of a design to our choosing, in a location which best enables us to increase our support. If that were done, no reasonable soccer fan could or should deny GAA and rugby receiving their share pro rata, to spend as they wish.

And best of all, the majority of people in NI who are not sports fans (or who are, but have more pressing priorities) would benefit from the overall saving being spent on education, health and the like.

P.S. I don't know where you got your 35k a year figure for NI attendances, but its both wrong in itself, plus it fails to take into account those matches which would have sold many more tickets, had UEFA not imposed severe restrictions on attendances at Windsor. For example, if we were allowed to stand, as with e.g. GAA or Rugby, attendances from that alone would have been half as big again (at least)

[SammyG]

Keep dreaming Sammy.  A nice wee 20k stadium of your own. Thats all Sammy wants for Chrtistmas

Wrong on capacity, wrong on who I think should be accomodated but sure you seem to be wrong on most things, so it's hardly a surprise.

[snatter]

However, the difference is that whilst the GAA is in a position to manage without a new stadium, soccer is not.

I've never quite got my head around this.
Whats to stop the IFA fundraising and borrowing in the same way that the GAA does?

The gaa never stopped investing in grounds just because for most of the last century the Brit govt gave them sweet fa.
Why the dependency culture?
Why not consider doing it yourselves?

[Evil Genius]

The relevance was that Evil Genus had drawn attention to what  he perceived to be small attendances at teh Antrim v Derry match. He surmised that the GAA would have no need for a large capacity.

I had to highlight the full attendance 2005 figures, and in doing so, I wished to highlight that Evil Genus's problem with capacity possibly lay in the inability of NI soccer to market itself and get its support base to actually turn up and watch a match.

Wrong. I made no comment whatever on the attendance at the Antrim v Derry, or any other GAA match. If the GAA considers that the Maze is appropriate for their crowds at the matches they allocate to it, then good for them. I am merely arguing the case for my sport.

As for the Gaa crowd figures you have quoted from 2005, I've not bothered to check the figures you gave for soccer by way of comparison. However, I think you've screwed up when talking about "the same period" for soccer. Presumably this is because your GAA figures are for the summer of 2005, when soccer has its close season? (I could point to crap GAA crowds in the middle of winter!  )

[snatter]

P.S. I don't know where you got your 35k a year figure for NI attendances, but its both wrong in itself, plus it fails to take into account those matches which would have sold many more tickets, had UEFA not imposed severe restrictions on attendances at Windsor. For example, if we were allowed to stand, as with e.g. GAA or Rugby, attendances from that alone would have been half as big again (at least)

Apologies, my arithmetic, IFA big match combined attendances (as shown in my earlier posts) should have been 47k, not 37k. Still way short of 500k, but wrong nonetheless.

Of course the England (and possbily Wales) figures would have been higher.
Last week SammyG reckoned that NI's natural support was itro 20/22k. Tonight he had it around 3/5k above the 2005 figures, ie max 18k. I believe he's undereestimating in order to scupper the MAze.
By highlighting the figures, I've being trying to draw out some sort of inner belief within you guys that you can actually fill the Maze.

You can't have it both ways - be so insignificant as to not be able to use the Maze, or be so important that all plans have to be done your way, or not at all.
That's what I've been trying to get at.
There's an inconsistency at the base of your argument.