The "pointless" NFL

[deiseach]

Do you really expect to get a positive response with a comment like that?

Did you really expect a different response when you basically told me to take up with congress rather than discussing it here?

Okay, point taken. But if we're going to deal strictly with the rationality of comments, are you seriously suggesting that we should start the entire GAA season from scratch? If you were made King, you'd junk the entire season and rebuild it? Because to my mind that is lunacy. You're dealing with people here and you are going to piss off far more people who have their own particular GAA fiefdom than you would make people happy who are put out by some element of the current calendar.

[Orchardman]

This is one point where i agree heavily with zulu and others. I have little interest in league football, and it is a shame that i feel that way, as I love GAA for more than any other sport. But the fact is that it's just shadow boxing. Whenever managers have to feel inclined to say ' we are not getting carried away, still early in the season, blah blah' you would nearly think they are sorry for winning a few games incase they get a bit of false hype.

It has to be linked to the championship, and the whole thing condensed a bit more to allow for club time. If it continues to start in feb then it should all be over early august.

In saying that i'm a fan of the railway cup, even though i've only gone once, and will go to the final in croker if ulster are there.

[deiseach]

It has to be linked to the championship, and the whole thing condensed a bit more to allow for club time. If it continues to start in feb then it should all be over early august.

The Championship works. The League doesn't. The solution is to make the Championship more like the League?

[Zulu]

Do you really expect to get a positive response with a comment like that?

Did you really expect a different response when you basically told me to take up with congress rather than discussing it here?

Okay, point taken. But if we're going to deal strictly with the rationality of comments, are you seriously suggesting that we should start the entire GAA season from scratch? If you were made King, you'd junk the entire season and rebuild it? Because to my mind that is lunacy. You're dealing with people here and you are going to piss off far more people who have their own particular GAA fiefdom than you would make people happy who are put out by some element of the current calendar.

Again, I'm debating it here so I accept it becomes far more complicated in the real world but if we have to confine discussions to what we can realistically change or influence then we may as well close up these sites and end 90% of the conversations people have anywhere in the world. In saying that I think a number of things could be done that would improve the situation without major overhaul. Two of the things that we could do for a start would be to schedule minor, U21 and senior IC hurling and football at the same time so players could only play one code in a given year. Secondly, only allow players to play at one IC level, either minor, U21 or senior. This would mean all IC action could be condensed into 4 to5 months and could be structured whatever way we want. There may not be much club activity at this time but at least it would have it's window as would the Uni's or schools.

If it was up to me I would start from scratch and I couldn't care less who I'd piss off as anyone pissed off is looking after themselves and not the association which is what we should all be doing.

[Zulu]

It has to be linked to the championship, and the whole thing condensed a bit more to allow for club time. If it continues to start in feb then it should all be over early august.

The Championship works. The League doesn't. The solution is to make the Championship more like the League?

I disagree, the championship doesn't work, the league is the far better competition it's just not done right. I love the league, I have the games on TV and my computer on to check how other games are going yet come championship you might have 2 games on a weekend and if the televised game is poor then the weekend can feel a bit of a let down.

Besides, if you link the league to the championship by seeding teams based on league performance for an open knockout championship you have a season that builds to a crescendo. Supporters of teams going poorly can still speculate about who they might meet if they can get 3 points from the last 2 games etc. and once the league is over you'll have 4 league winners but even those who have gone poorly can go well in championship if they get a run going.

Would you not prefer to be heading to Walsh park or the Fraher field to see a well prepared full strength Waterford team take on a full strength Tipp in a game that actually matters, there'd easily be 15,000 at that on a nice April or May Sunday? The winner maybe securing an easier path to the All Ireland final, the loser destined to meet Kilkenny on the way and when the championship starts rather than having one game toopen it up we'd have 16 knockout games in football and 8 in the hurling the following weekend and big(isn) names sure to fall at the first hurdle.     

[Syferus]

The first step should be relatively obvious to everyone - move Sigerson and co. to pre-Christmas as well as finishing the club AIs before the turkey's cooked. This would also have the added effect of removing any need for colleges to compete in the inter-county pre-season tournaments, easing the pull on u21 players' time in January to March.

One step at a time.

[deiseach]

Again, I'm debating it here so I accept it becomes far more complicated in the real world but if we have to confine discussions to what we can realistically change or influence then we may as well close up these sites and end 90% of the conversations people have anywhere in the world. In saying that I think a number of things could be done that would improve the situation without major overhaul. Two of the things that we could do for a start would be to schedule minor, U21 and senior IC hurling and football at the same time so players could only play one code in a given year. Secondly, only allow players to play at one IC level, either minor, U21 or senior. This would mean all IC action could be condensed into 4 to5 months and could be structured whatever way we want. There may not be much club activity at this time but at least it would have it's window as would the Uni's or schools.

The problem with these suggestions is that hurling needs to be played in the summer. One of the reasons I'm a defender of the League is that if you abolished it you'd still have something to fill the gap like the Walsh Cup. So why not retain the League? Maybe it might work in football, which is more competitive than hurling as it is. But staging the championships in a window when there is no club activity? Someone is going to have to slop around on gluepot pitches in that scenario.

[Rossfan]

I go to all the NFL games ( Ros football that is) and can identify with some of the earlier pieces about the faithful shivering wooly hatted few that also go.
However it is "only" a pre real season tournament and will never be anything else.
I would suggest a short sharp League with smaller groups ( of 6) played in Feb/March and the finals the first weekend in April.
Provincial Championships in mid April to end of May as 4 stand alone competitions with some perk thrown in for the winners.
The All Ireland championship played either - A and B Championships in groups of 4 with Prov Champions seeded and given 2 hime games
or a knock out ( all 1 Championship or an A and B whichever) with Prov Champions seeded and given home draws till the Qtr Finals.
3 Week gap between rounds whether  Group or Knockout format to allow club championships to progress in all Counties.
If Group system start 2nd weekend in June
If k.o start last weekend in June.
Agree with playing minor and U21 same weekends as Senior IC but you'd have to go U20 rather than U21.

[Zulu]

Uni's are only back in September and December is out due to exams/course work deadlines etc., on top of that the weather can be extremely bad in November and December so that ability to play all games is far from guaranteed. The competitions are fine where they are, though maybe they could be brought forward a bit to early February. No reason the U21 couldn't be played in April or May if you weren't allowed to also play senior. Another benefit of this would be the ability of players to develop physically, psychologically and tactically/skills while not having to train with the seniors. 

[deiseach]

Would you not prefer to be heading to Walsh park or the Fraher field to see a well prepared full strength Waterford team take on a full strength Tipp in a game that actually matters, there'd easily be 15,000 at that on a nice April or May Sunday? The winner maybe securing an easier path to the All Ireland final, the loser destined to meet Kilkenny on the way and when the championship starts rather than having one game toopen it up we'd have 16 knockout games in football and 8 in the hurling the following weekend and big(isn) names sure to fall at the first hurdle.   

15,000 in Fraher? Ahem. Leaving that aside, I already have that in the Munster championship. We play our enemies of long-standing in a game that really matters. The winner gets a tilt at the Munster title and an easier path to September and the loser gets a second chance in a match with a real knockout feel. I'm not completely set against the concept of an open draw, but one game in the Championship? We might as well go back to the old system.

[Zulu]

The problem with these suggestions is that hurling needs to be played in the summer. One of the reasons I'm a defender of the League is that if you abolished it you'd still have something to fill the gap like the Walsh Cup. So why not retain the League? Maybe it might work in football, which is more competitive than hurling as it is. But staging the championships in a window when there is no club activity? Someone is going to have to slop around on gluepot pitches in that scenario.

But hurling isn't played in the summer now, the majority of games are played in the winter/spring. I don't want to abolish the league I want to get rid of pointless games and if you link the league to the championship you make every game important. Waterford hurlers would get a minimum of 8 proper games (7 league games and 1 championship) in reality they should always win their first game unless they have a really bad league so they (and the supporters) get 9 proper games at regular intervals, the footballers get something similar and all played from April onwards when the weather is good. The clubs will know when they are playing and both U21 championships will be over so the CB can plan some sort of club structure, if Waterford got knocked out of the championship in round 2 (the QF in this system) then club activity can swing into action with all of July, August and September to themselves.

15,000 in Fraher? Ahem. Leaving that aside, I already have that in the Munster championship. We play our enemies of long-standing in a game that really matters. The winner gets a tilt at the Munster title and an easier path to September and the loser gets a second chance in a match with a real knockout feel. I'm not completely set against the concept of an open draw, but one game in the Championship? We might as well go back to the old system.

Ok you're not going to get 15K into Fraher field but the point I'm making is linking the league means we can all get serious games on our doorsteps in nice weather which will make for much bigger crowds and media attention.

To see some of the recent attendances and attitude of teams to provincial championships then you'd question who much they matter anymore but the system I'm proposing provides many more important games, greater variation and a return to the do or die games of teh old championship while giving all teams a better more structured season.

[deiseach]

Most inter-county matches are played in the spring, but most hurling matches are played in the summer and it's no coincidence that the games that everyone thinks matters are played in the summer. Playing seven or eight games, most of which are going to be bloodbaths, to set up a knockout competition where you are only guaranteed one game . . . well, it certainly doesn't seem like an improvement on the current model to me. As for clubs being able to plan around a fixed season, there's nothing stopping them doing that anyway. To me, that's the crux of the matter in the GAA - the cavalier manner in which club championships are treated. They don't postpone games in Kilkenny because they're having a good run in the championship. We had the scenario in Waterford once where a football match was postponed because the Minor hurlers were doing well, even though said hurler wasn't playing football at the time! People get too hung up on the structures of competitions as a solution to the GAA's ills when the problems often run deeper and are not going to be solved by cosmetic changes to the calendar.

[Zulu]

Not sure how you make out most hurling games are played in the summer, Waterford will play a most of their league games in March and April and they've played all their Walsh cup games in the winter so if they lose their Munster championship first round they may only play a further 2 or 3 games so even if, with May league encounters, they play more summer games, it ain't by much.

Why do you say the league games would be bloodbaths? And the championship always ends up at knockout anyway, the current system only guarantees teams 2 games but up to that point they play semi serious games. My format guarantees them 8 games, all serious, surely a better format for players and supporters.

There's plenty stopping them from running a proper club championship, I'm not overly familiar with Kilkenny but they are a small (in reality one code) county so it's easier for them to run off their club season. What about Dublin or Cork for example, they don't know when their football or hurling teams will be playing bar the first round, if they win they go one route if the lose it's another and then throw in the U21 hurling to the mix and clubs are seriously squeezed.

I saw that but Waterford have always been a disaster, even before the hurlers got good and I'd know as I played championship there for a few years.

[Eamonnca1]

... the championship doesn't work...

Attendances and viewing figures would suggest otherwise.

[Zulu]

Only if you take those as a barometer of success and even then attendances are down on what they were before, recession or not. Besides I'm not suggesting the current system has no positives, of course it does, and any alternative would have negatives. It isn't about finding the perfect format, just a better one. I'd wager if my system (which I'm not saying is the only way, or even the best way, forward) was implemented you'd have bigger crowds, bigger TV viewership and more media hype than you do currently.