The "pointless" NFL

[Eamonnca1]

All this talk about "teams" not getting enough games if the league were abolished is irrelevant.  "Teams" consist of players, and the individual players on the teams are getting so many games in some cases that top players are burning out and retiring from inter-county far younger than they would be if the schedule weren't as packed.  John Mullane might still be playing for Waterford next year if the number of games per player were brought under control.

[Zulu]

It's not the number of games but the scheduling of them and the amount of training lads do compared to games played. IC players should get between 6 and 12 proper competitive games and club players should have around 20 games a year. The club scene is more complicated but there are fairly easy solutions to the IC season and the crossover of teams and competitions.

[Tyrone Dreamer]

The gaa better hope Donegal aren't successful for too long. McGuiness has already did his best to completely write off the McKenna Cup and is now out for the leagues as well. In fairness there has been a linkage between doing well (not necessarily winning them but certainly competing well in div 1) in the leagues and All Ireland success long before he came along.

I do understand the point though - it does seem a bit mad that counties play many more warm up games in the year than actual matches in the most important competition. Its also a bit crazy that the big teams don't meet more often in the main competition as well.

I've suggested before having 2 championships - an a&b. 2 groups of 8 in each championship. The top 4 go through to quarter finals. The b championship starts slightly earlier meaning the winner can play one of the 4th place teams in the main championship in a play off to get to the All Ireland Quarter finals meaning every team in Ireland still has a chance of winning it but gets to play at their own level. There would also be promotion relegation play offs. If this was marketed right I could see it being a real winner - the gaa could really push their season ticket scheme and maybe have like season tickets for the 3 home games. I think every team would play their 4th game as a double header in Croke Park so that its used plenty and their could be big weekends in it during the summer.

Maybe its a crazy idea but I think it could work. The provinicial championships could be played as a warm up. More certainty over fixtures would also help club games.

[heffo]

All this talk about "teams" not getting enough games if the league were abolished is irrelevant.  "Teams" consist of players, and the individual players on the teams are getting so many games in some cases that top players are burning out and retiring from inter-county far younger than they would be if the schedule weren't as packed.  John Mullane might still be playing for Waterford next year if the number of games per player were brought under control.

Will you stop the lights, with the exception of a certain bunch of players at a certain age who might be dual players playing college, club, county etc, most players don't get enough games

[deiseach]

All this talk about "teams" not getting enough games if the league were abolished is irrelevant.  "Teams" consist of players, and the individual players on the teams are getting so many games in some cases that top players are burning out and retiring from inter-county far younger than they would be if the schedule weren't as packed.  John Mullane might still be playing for Waterford next year if the number of games per player were brought under control.

Would that be the same John Mullane who played a grand total of two NHL games last year?

[deiseach]

John O'Brien had a very good article in the Sindo a few years back on the virtues of being happy with what we have:

Don't knock the back door -- it's the best system we have

The qualifiers free weaker counties from provincial shackles, says John O'Brien

19 JUNE 2011

It could be argued that the most electrifying moment of this year's All-Ireland football championship thus far came in Carrick-on-Shannon last Sunday when Mickey Quinn and Paddy McNaughton dipped their fingers into a linen sack and, one after the other, pulled out the names of Louth and Meath. A leaden summer dominated by the usual hysterical talk about declining skills and bad officiating had suddenly spat out a fixture worth getting worked up about.

It was a shot in the arm for the qualifier system, ten years old this summer, still unloved by many, only grudgingly accepted by the majority. Yet it threw up something the rigidly structured provincial championships could not: an unexpected gem that harked back to unfinished business from last year. A grudge match. It mightn't live up to the hype, of course, but the hype itself is something. God knows, the championship can do with every bit it can muster.

Not that it will salvage the qualifiers from the lowly position they occupy in people's affections. Any day now a giant is going to be toppled -- a Kerry or Cork or Tyrone -- and the inevitable cliché will ring out: "Sure the All- Ireland only begins in August anyway." The provincial championships, it is argued, have been irreparably devalued while the qualifiers are little more than a month-long accounting period from which the best teams will filter through for the real business of summer.

Such sentiments are fair enough, but a problem arises when the temptation becomes too strong to lump all the ills of the championship structure at the door of the qualifiers which weren't devised as a panacea in the first place. What they were was a heavily watered down version of the proposals put forward by the now defunct Football Development Committee in 1999. Instead of a wildly ambitious scheme to guarantee every county a minimum of 10 games came the tepid compromise of a second chance. A GAA solution to a GAA problem.

Whenever these debates surface, we might usefully wonder whether we are asking the right questions anyway. All the fanciful talk of intricate round-robin systems, Champions League variations or shifting provincial boundaries merely underscores the reality that the system is an ass to begin with. The thing is it has more than a century behind it and isn't for turning in any meaningful way. For better or worse we're largely stuck with it.

Those who decry the qualifier system do so largely on the grounds that is has diluted the do-or-die nature of provincial games and compromised the sanctity of the championship. Michael Delaney, chief executive of the Leinster Council, has long been an ardent critic of the qualifiers and the feeling persists that the hankering for the traditional knockout format is stronger than most of us would bargain for.

And that's the thing. Before you start talking about fancy new systems, you need to figure out how radical you're willing to be. What is the point, for instance, of talking about more elaborate structures without a mind for the demands it would place on amateur players? If amateurism is a sine qua non going forward, forget notions of extending the present format. And if we accept that clubs are the bedrock of the GAA, then it could be argued that the All-Ireland championship is already big enough for its boots.

As for the qualifiers themselves, criticism tends to centre around two issues in particular. The first is that they are weighted strongly in favour of the most successful counties, a familiar refrain when the GAA introduces any innovation. To which there is really only one appropriate response: well, lordy. A championship stretched out over five months that culminates, more often than not, with the two best teams in the country fighting for silverware in Croke Park. By definition should a championship be designed to do anything else?

Those who have trouble with that might be better off coming up with fresh ideas. A handicap system as used in horse racing, perhaps. The best players carrying lead weights in their shorts or, if that is too uncomfortable, maybe the Gooch could play blindfolded or the Cork midfield forced to play with their bootlaces tied together. Leitrim could select their entire stock of able-bodied men under the age of 35, allowing them to field 20 players instead of 15.

Or maybe you could leave the qualifiers out of it and focus on the real problem. The GAA investing in weaker counties, particularly at schools and underage level, helping them to close the gap with the top teams.

The real value of Mick O'Dwyer's presence in Wicklow, for example, wasn't any quick-fix notion the great man brought, but the impetus he provided the county board to get busy on the ground where the real hard work needed to be done.

The impetus is the thing. It was a credit to Wicklow that they realised their thrilling run through the 2009 qualifiers wasn't an elixir in itself for years of neglect and poor results, but something to build on that would take time and a lot of energy. There isn't a system alive that can compensate for hard work and dedication. The qualifiers can provide an impetus that, for various reasons, hasn't always come from the provincial championships. It is up to the counties themselves how they use it.

The other major issue is the apparent iniquity of provincial winners being denied a second chance and the dismal record of provincial finalists in the final qualifying round. Is it harsh, as Mickey Harte has argued, that provincial winners exit the championship after their first defeat? Perhaps. Yet is there nothing to be said for the momentum and confidence a team accumulates during an unbeaten run through the province?

And more importantly, they will enjoy the privilege of an extended break while their opponents are often coming off the back of a hard game the previous week. That's a pretty sizeable advantage in our book.

The defeated provincial finalists have a stronger case. Yet the fault here lies with the needlessly elongated nature of the provincial championships. It has nothing to do with the qualifiers per se. The statistics show that of the 40 fourth-round qualifiers played to date, only 15 provincial finalists have advanced. That's a win rate of less than 40 per cent. On the surface that appears alarming but there is a reasonably satisfactory explanation.

Take, for example, the oft-cited three years when none of the beaten provincial finalists managed to win: 2003, 2004 and 2010. If you examine each contest individually none of them, with the exception of Fermanagh beating Mayo in 2004, could be legitimately regarded as shocks. The favourites held sway almost every time. Back to an earlier point: the strong teams getting stronger as the summer wears on. That's championship football for you. And maybe it suggests too that the best teams don't always contest provincial finals.

There's a bottom-line argument in all of this. You could tweak the system in as many ways as you like and the structural faults would just manifest themselves in other ways. And, as now, the system would still bear the brunt of the blame. The best course of action is simply to enjoy what is there and stop hankering for idealistic solutions that don't exist. The championship started with a whimper in Ballybofey last month. It comes alive in Breffni Park next Saturday.

Ah, July approaching. Mid-summer and not a single county out of the All-Ireland yet. The games coming thick and fast. The tantalising prospect of a minnow suddenly getting a hint of form and putting a few wins together back to back. New heroes, fresh narratives. Just think how great the qualifiers could be if we only learned how to love them.

[fearglasmor]

For jaybus sake. I dont know what age you lads are but I'm old enough to know that for the last 40 years the league has never really mattered from a football or hurling perspective. All sorts of different formats have been used down the years and regardless, teams will work their way through it in whatever way suits them with their thoughts fixed firmly on May or June and the start of the real competition.

But what has changed is the GAA's never ending move towards professionalism. Not for the players, God forbid, but for the administrators and the real estate. Years ago no one gave a suit about the standard of play in February. Now its an issue because its vital that The GAA is in the media, generate interset means generate money to feed the hungry monster on Jones Road. For guck sake they even have Kildare playing home games in Dublin to generate more "interest"

One way or another it will all end in tears for somebody.

[deiseach]

For jaybus sake. I dont know what age you lads are but I'm old enough to know that for the last 40 years the league has never really mattered from a football or hurling perspective. All sorts of different formats have been used down the years and regardless, teams will work their way through it in whatever way suits them with their thoughts fixed firmly on May or June and the start of the real competition.

But what has changed is the GAA's never ending move towards professionalism. Not for the players, God forbid, but for the administrators and the real estate. Years ago no one gave a suit about the standard of play in February. Now its an issue because its vital that The GAA is in the media, generate interset means generate money to feed the hungry monster on Jones Road. For guck sake they even have Kildare playing home games in Dublin to generate more "interest"

One way or another it will all end in tears for somebody.

You're a firm believer in this notion of Headquarters being like Goldman Sachs, a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money (h/t to Matt Taibbi). In the case of the GAA though it just isn't true. Yes, the GAA has to make money to package the games in a manner it didn't have to in the past when it could rely on a captive audience. I think of the ghastly facilities we used put up with back in the day and say a prayer of thanks for all the money that has been generated to install such luxuries as running water. But in what way are the administrators filling their boots at the expense of the downtrodden players? The way some people go on about the supposed joys of working for Croke Park I'm amazed more players don't pack it in to take up a lucrative career in counting beans for the GAA.

[fearglasmor]

You're a firm believer in this notion of Headquarters being like Goldman Sachs, a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money (h/t to Matt Taibbi). In the case of the GAA though it just isn't true. Yes, the GAA has to make money to package the games in a manner it didn't have to in the past when it could rely on a captive audience. I think of the ghastly facilities we used put up with back in the day and say a prayer of thanks for all the money that has been generated to install such luxuries as running water. But in what way are the administrators filling their boots at the expense of the downtrodden players? The way some people go on about the supposed joys of working for Croke Park I'm amazed more players don't pack it in to take up a lucrative career in counting beans for the GAA.

No I think you picked me up wrong there. I'm not saying administrators are filling their boots at players expense. They are trying to fill the Associations boots, thats their"job". I am saying that the professional structures now set up for the administration and management of the GAA require a level of financial servicing that it never did before. And this is why it does matter now if the league is suit. Not to the teams or their managers or even the supporters,  but to the organisation as a whole. I think you are basically agreeing wih me that

the GAA has to make money to package the games in a manner it didn't have to in the past

All I'm saying is nothing has changed in 40 years in regard to the standard of play in the leagues. But the importance of the perception of it has changed massively. And thats down to financial requirements.

[Zulu]

You're a firm believer in this notion of Headquarters being like Goldman Sachs, a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money (h/t to Matt Taibbi). In the case of the GAA though it just isn't true. Yes, the GAA has to make money to package the games in a manner it didn't have to in the past when it could rely on a captive audience. I think of the ghastly facilities we used put up with back in the day and say a prayer of thanks for all the money that has been generated to install such luxuries as running water. But in what way are the administrators filling their boots at the expense of the downtrodden players? The way some people go on about the supposed joys of working for Croke Park I'm amazed more players don't pack it in to take up a lucrative career in counting beans for the GAA.

No I think you picked me up wrong there. I'm not saying administrators are filling their boots at players expense. They are trying to fill the Associations boots, thats their"job". I am saying that the professional structures now set up for the administration and management of the GAA require a level of financial servicing that it never did before. And this is why it does matter now if the league is suit. Not to the teams or their managers or even the supporters,  but to the organisation as a whole. I think you are basically agreeing wih me that

the GAA has to make money to package the games in a manner it didn't have to in the past

All I'm saying is nothing has changed in 40 years in regard to the standard of play in the leagues. But the importance of the perception of it has changed massively. And thats down to financial requirements.

And down to the fact that all sports now have bigger seasons and more coverage. I can't believe some of the responses here not a sane thought among them. We can all disagree on issues but generally you can see where someone is coming from even if you don't agree with it but some of you boys have lost the plot altogether.

This is a quick summary of the season (in general terms).

Jan to March - Sigerson, U21 IC football, Fitz, pre-season IC tournaments, latter stages of club AI, half of national league, Railway cup. A handful of players could be involved in all of these while most club players have done nothing but start training. 2 of those 'competitions matter not a jot, RC and McKenna cup etc. One of them is only semi important, the league,our second biggest competition btw and 3 of them mark the end of the season while over lapping with the start of another.

April to May - Leagues conclude and IC championships start, who the hell knows what goes on at club level but the reigning AI champs who just finished their season are now back training again. Some championship games probably played but no idea when the next ones will be. U21 IC hurling cranking up now too.

June to September - Senior IC championship runs along as does U21 IC hurling but club season grinds to a halt in many counties.

September to November - Sigerson and Fitz start up, club All Ireland trundles back into existence as counties scramble to finish their championships in time.

You're right lads, it's a wonder more sports don't do it this way. The perfect system!

[deiseach]

Utter nonsense, first off this is a discussion board so discussing these things is exactly what we do here or did you miss that memo? Next time you offer an opinion on the Waterford hurling team or management I'll be sure to direct you to the correct mechanisms to change the management or hoe to get the job yourself, Jesus!!

Oh, by all means put it on a discussion board. But it's a little cheeky to snarkily say that "Congress has always been a place for logical thought alright" while putting it up here, the greatest repository of inane thought outside of Bedlam.

[Zulu]

While discussion boards undoubtedly veer wildly from the thoughtful and intelligent to the bizarre and frankly stupid, sometime within the one post, they are places for like-minded people to discuss issues so posting something daft is no crime. Congress on the other hand is supposed to be the guardian of the association yet it's clear many delegates turn up ill informed on many issues, some don't care about other issues and if a select band of people want something to go through or not they'll generally get their way. A group that can reject new rules trailed yet pass a hand pass rule that was never trailed is one whose credibility can justifiably be questioned.

[deiseach]

And down to the fact that all sports now have bigger seasons and more coverage. I can't believe some of the responses here not a sane thought among them. We can all disagree on issues but generally you can see where someone is coming from even if you don't agree with it but some of you boys have lost the plot altogether.

Do you really expect to get a positive response with a comment like that?

This is a quick summary of the season (in general terms).

Jan to March - Sigerson, U21 IC football, Fitz, pre-season IC tournaments, latter stages of club AI, half of national league, Railway cup. A handful of players could be involved in all of these while most club players have done nothing but start training. 2 of those 'competitions matter not a jot, RC and McKenna cup etc. One of them is only semi important, the league,our second biggest competition btw and 3 of them mark the end of the season while over lapping with the start of another.

April to May - Leagues conclude and IC championships start, who the hell knows what goes on at club level but the reigning AI champs who just finished their season are now back training again. Some championship games probably played but no idea when the next ones will be. U21 IC hurling cranking up now too.

June to September - Senior IC championship runs along as does U21 IC hurling but club season grinds to a halt in many counties.

September to November - Sigerson and Fitz start up, club All Ireland trundles back into existence as counties scramble to finish their championships in time.

You're right lads, it's a wonder more sports don't do it this way. The perfect system!

No one is claiming it's perfect, but every one of its quirks is there for a reason. What comparison do we have in other sports for the Sigerson/Fitzgibbon? I'm sure rugby has an inter-varsity competition but I doubt I'm alone in not knowing how it works, who competes for it, when it takes place or who the winners of it were. Given all that, I'd say the GAA has nothing to learn from other sports. You mention the Under-21 and Club championships. These are relatively recent entries to the calendar without the pedigree of (say) the provincial championships yet they are wildly popular and with good reason. Personally I don't see the point of the Railway Cup but if fifteen lads want to get together and don the colours of their cúige then why would I want to stop them? Call me insane (you already have), but I can see a reason for all of them. If we were starting from first principles, we wouldn't have a system as messy as we do. But we're not starting from first principles, and suggestions of grand plans for the reformation of the GAA are inevitably doomed.

[Zulu]

And down to the fact that all sports now have bigger seasons and more coverage. I can't believe some of the responses here not a sane thought among them. We can all disagree on issues but generally you can see where someone is coming from even if you don't agree with it but some of you boys have lost the plot altogether.

Do you really expect to get a positive response with a comment like that?

This is a quick summary of the season (in general terms).

Jan to March - Sigerson, U21 IC football, Fitz, pre-season IC tournaments, latter stages of club AI, half of national league, Railway cup. A handful of players could be involved in all of these while most club players have done nothing but start training. 2 of those 'competitions matter not a jot, RC and McKenna cup etc. One of them is only semi important, the league,our second biggest competition btw and 3 of them mark the end of the season while over lapping with the start of another.

April to May - Leagues conclude and IC championships start, who the hell knows what goes on at club level but the reigning AI champs who just finished their season are now back training again. Some championship games probably played but no idea when the next ones will be. U21 IC hurling cranking up now too.

June to September - Senior IC championship runs along as does U21 IC hurling but club season grinds to a halt in many counties.

September to November - Sigerson and Fitz start up, club All Ireland trundles back into existence as counties scramble to finish their championships in time.

You're right lads, it's a wonder more sports don't do it this way. The perfect system!

No one is claiming it's perfect, but every one of its quirks is there for a reason. What comparison do we have in other sports for the Sigerson/Fitzgibbon? I'm sure rugby has an inter-varsity competition but I doubt I'm alone in not knowing how it works, who competes for it, when it takes place or who the winners of it were. Given all that, I'd say the GAA has nothing to learn from other sports. You mention the Under-21 and Club championships. These are relatively recent entries to the calendar without the pedigree of (say) the provincial championships yet they are wildly popular and with good reason. Personally I don't see the point of the Railway Cup but if fifteen lads want to get together and don the colours of their cúige then why would I want to stop them? Call me insane (you already have), but I can see a reason for all of them. If we were starting from first principles, we wouldn't have a system as messy as what do. But we're not starting from first principles, and suggestions of grand plans for the reformation of the GAA are inevitably doomed.

Do you really expect to get a positive response with a comment like that?

Did you really expect a different response when you basically told me to take up with congress rather than discussing it here?

No one is claiming it's perfect, but every one of its quirks is there for a reason.

No they're not, they're there because we've maintained the basic structure of the GAA, the senior IC and club championships while adding layers to them and other competitions yet never looked at the overall structure. At the start you could play both club and county at senior level and both codes too if you were so inclined. But all these competitions were played on a winner takes all scenario so you could have played senior IC and club football and hurling yet played no more than 4 to 8 games, there was no league, no IC U21, Sigerson and Fitz were confined to a few Universities and played over a weekend, nor was there a club All Ireland. So as we added competitions, expanded others and made all of them some kind of round robin/second chance format we never looked at player eligibility or how these competitions dove tailed with the others. Now we have an utter mess of a season which at club level in particular is a complete disaster.

What comparison do we have in other sports for the Sigerson/Fitzgibbon? I'm sure rugby has an inter-varsity competition but I doubt I'm alone in not knowing how it works, who competes for it, when it takes place or who the winners of it were. Given all that, I'd say the GAA has nothing to learn from other sports.

If you play rugby for your University then you transfer from your club for that period, so all Uni rugby players have a full league and cup competitions to play in while not having to play with anyone else. Not saying that's the right way for the GAA but that's the way they do it in Irish rugby afaik. All sports have things to learn from each other.

You mention the Under-21 and Club championships. These are relatively recent entries to the calendar without the pedigree of (say) the provincial championships yet they are wildly popular and with good reason. Personally I don't see the point of the Railway Cup but if fifteen lads want to get together and don the colours of their cúige then why would I want to stop them? Call me insane (you already have), but I can see a reason for all of them.

Outside of the Railway cup I don't want to get rid of any of them either, and I don't recall implying I did but I do want to give them there own space and restrict eligibility for players who are playing on too many teams. This is both for their own good, the supporters who pay into games and the efficient running of competitions for all GAA players.

If we were starting from first principles, we wouldn't have a system as messy as what do. But we're not starting from first principles, and suggestions of grand plans for the reformation of the GAA are inevitably doomed.

Currently yes but that goes back to my point of sanity and logic, you yourself agree we wouldn't have the current system if we tore it up and started again so only fools continue on a path they know not to be the best yrt that is what we are doing in the GAA.

[HiMucker]

Im with Zulu here