who turned down the visit to meet the queen at croke park?

[mylestheslasher]

If you really believe some of the rubbish you are posting and not on some sort of sick wind up then you are one disgusting person. I suspect you are just a windup merchant with too much time. You should have more respect for victims and their family's.

Jumping to conclusions again. What makes you think I wasn't affected by the troubles? Had that thought never crossed your jurrasic mind?

In what way were u effected?  Try to answer like an adult this time.

Irrelevant. You jumped to the conclusion that I wasn't affected, and as I've explained elsewhere my family was affected.

You see here's what pisses me off about the attitude I'm seeing all over this discussion. It's the all-or-nothing attitude. If you're not a Brit-hating provo fan then you must be a boot-licking grovelling loyalist who knows nothing about what happened in the troubles. Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe there's a happy medium?  Maybe it's possible to be a northern nationalist who had no love for the Brits (or the provos) when the troubles were in full swing but has moved on and can see the diplomatic significance of this visit?

Oh by the way, I saw this morning that 95% of the people had a positive view of the visit.  Looks like this place has an unusually high concentration of the "too early to move on" crowd.

Where did you see this 95% figure, in the Sunday independent? Who in their right mind would believe anything they print.

[pintsofguinness]

If you really believe some of the rubbish you are posting and not on some sort of sick wind up then you are one disgusting person. I suspect you are just a windup merchant with too much time. You should have more respect for victims and their family's.

Jumping to conclusions again. What makes you think I wasn't affected by the troubles? Had that thought never crossed your jurrasic mind?

In what way were u effected?  Try to answer like an adult this time.

Irrelevant. You jumped to the conclusion that I wasn't affected, and as I've explained elsewhere my family was affected.

You see here's what pisses me off about the attitude I'm seeing all over this discussion. It's the all-or-nothing attitude. If you're not a Brit-hating provo fan then you must be a boot-licking grovelling loyalist who knows nothing about what happened in the troubles. Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe there's a happy medium?  Maybe it's possible to be a northern nationalist who had no love for the Brits (or the provos) when the troubles were in full swing but has moved on and can see the diplomatic significance of this visit?

Oh by the way, I saw this morning that 95% of the people had a positive view of the visit.  Looks like this place has an unusually high concentration of the "too early to move on" crowd.

You seem to impose the same black and white attitude yourself, if you're not delighted that Ireland was graced with the presence of her majesty you are a dinosaur who won't move on.

[cadhlancian]

I'm with Nally on this one. Some of the 'move on' comments are disgusting and people that have that opinion obviously have a sheltered and nieive knowledge of what actually went on in the occupied 6 over the last few decades. People lost their lives simply due to the fact they were members of the GAA and their murders were directly aided and facilitated by Brittish forces. Tell those families to 'move on'. Discusting and shameful stuff. Sadly not suprising though.

Away and shite. How dare you jump to that conclusion about people you've never met and know nothing about. I'm a nationalist from the north, I'm GAA to the core, I know exactly what went on since I grew up with it, and I happen to think that "let's move on" is a perfectly valid thing to say. There's been enough hatred, enough targetting of people because they're GAA members, enough having to duck below the windows on the train home from matches in Dublin every time it goes through that hole in Portadown, and enough burning of GAA halls because people think we're evil. Enough, do you hear me? Enough!

You don't like the tone of the "move on" comments? Well I don't like the tone of the "don't tell me to move on" comments because they're presumptuous, jurassic, and some of them are so bitter and twisted they sound like they're coming out of the mouths of the Celtic shirt-wearing "no to foreign games" crowd. Don't get on your republican fundamentalist high horse with me, son.

You really do not have a clue do you? The fact that you say you are from the north makes it even worse. I'm not up on any 'republican fundamentalist high horse'. I'm simply saying that it is very wrong of you or anyone to tell others, who may have lost loved ones, when is the right time to 'move on'. Some wounds are still very raw.

You jumped to a conclusion that I am in favour of the Queen's visit therefore I know nothing about what happened in the north and led some sort of sheltered life. That's a contemptible statement and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Eamon , what about the family of Sean Brown? Should they move on? A father of 6 who was murdered by  the LVF in 1997, whilst locking the gates to Bellaghy GAA grounds? state sanctioned murder actually!

[Maguire01]

The 'moving on' is a very difficult issue and will be very sensitive for a lot of people.

But if victims of republican violence have had to move and deal with Sinn Fein governing them (or alteratively, be called a dinosaur), then is a visit by the Queen not just something that victims of loyalist and/or state violence will have to stomach, however hard, as part of the bigger picture?

Nally made the following point earlier in the thread:

well I could put it like this, I know a local family who had a member murdered by loyalists. The dogs in the street know these loyalists were acting with security force collusion. That family has never been told the truth. How could I buy into the nonsense line that this visit moves people forward and still look into the eyes of anyone in that family?

By the same score, should Unionist politicians not be able to look straight into the eyes of victims in their communicty after going into government with SF?

By the way, this post isn't meant as 'whataboutery' - just making the point that 'we' all expect people to 'move on' to facilitate the bigger process. And it's going to be very difficult for a lot of people.

[pintsofguinness]

The 'moving on' is a very difficult issue and will be very sensitive for a lot of people.

But if victims of republican violence have had to move and deal with Sinn Fein governing them (or alteratively, be called a dinosaur), then is a visit by the Queen not just something that victims of loyalist and/or state violence will have to stomach, however hard, as part of the bigger picture?

Nally made the following point earlier in the thread:

well I could put it like this, I know a local family who had a member murdered by loyalists. The dogs in the street know these loyalists were acting with security force collusion. That family has never been told the truth. How could I buy into the nonsense line that this visit moves people forward and still look into the eyes of anyone in that family?

By the same score, should Unionist politicians not be able to look straight into the eyes of victims in their communicty after going into government with SF?

By the way, this post isn't meant as 'whataboutery' - just making the point that 'we' all expect people to 'move on' to facilitate the bigger process. And it's going to be very difficult for a lot of people.

I'm sure they are just the same maguire. I'm sure some can deal with it while others find it extremely difficult.  I suppose it helps them when no one questions their victim status or screams in their face to "move on". 

[Nally Stand]

The 'moving on' is a very difficult issue and will be very sensitive for a lot of people.

But if victims of republican violence have had to move and deal with Sinn Fein governing them (or alteratively, be called a dinosaur), then is a visit by the Queen not just something that victims of loyalist and/or state violence will have to stomach, however hard, as part of the bigger picture?

Nally made the following point earlier in the thread:

well I could put it like this, I know a local family who had a member murdered by loyalists. The dogs in the street know these loyalists were acting with security force collusion. That family has never been told the truth. How could I buy into the nonsense line that this visit moves people forward and still look into the eyes of anyone in that family?

By the same score, should Unionist politicians not be able to look straight into the eyes of victims in their communicty after going into government with SF?

By the way, this post isn't meant as 'whataboutery' - just making the point that 'we' all expect people to 'move on' to facilitate the bigger process. And it's going to be very difficult for a lot of people.

There are a few subtle differences:

1. People vote for SF, so SF have a democratic mandate to be in a power sharing executive as outlined in the GFA, voted for by the majority of the Irish people.
2. The IRA apologised to all it's non-combatant victims in 2002 and has never denied to those victims that it was an active participant in a conflict. It's 2011 and the British Government still has not done this.

[Applesisapples]

The 'moving on' is a very difficult issue and will be very sensitive for a lot of people.

But if victims of republican violence have had to move and deal with Sinn Fein governing them (or alteratively, be called a dinosaur), then is a visit by the Queen not just something that victims of loyalist and/or state violence will have to stomach, however hard, as part of the bigger picture?

Nally made the following point earlier in the thread:

well I could put it like this, I know a local family who had a member murdered by loyalists. The dogs in the street know these loyalists were acting with security force collusion. That family has never been told the truth. How could I buy into the nonsense line that this visit moves people forward and still look into the eyes of anyone in that family?

By the same score, should Unionist politicians not be able to look straight into the eyes of victims in their communicty after going into government with SF?

By the way, this post isn't meant as 'whataboutery' - just making the point that 'we' all expect people to 'move on' to facilitate the bigger process. And it's going to be very difficult for a lot of people.

There are a few subtle differences:

1. People vote for SF, so SF have a democratic mandate to be in a power sharing executive as outlined in the GFA, voted for by the majority of the Irish people.
2. The IRA apologised to all it's non-combatant victims in 2002 and has never denied to those victims that it was an active participant in a conflict. It's 2011 and the British Government still has not done this.

Nally the IRA apology was conditional, the British have apologised where appropriate e.g. Bloody Sunday. Sovereign Governments are not going to issue wide spread apologies. I believe we have got to where we can with all sides. It is time to move on but as I have stated previously there are some who aren't ready (on both sides) and who might never be ready. We should respect thier postion and try and help where we can. It is not however helpful as some in this forum suggest, to insist that they must move on or be left behind.

[muppet]

Nally the IRA apology was conditional, the British have apologised where appropriate e.g. Bloody Sunday. Sovereign Governments are not going to issue wide spread apologies. I believe we have got to where we can with all sides. It is time to move on but as I have stated previously there are some who aren't ready (on both sides) and who might never be ready. We should respect thier postion and try and help where we can. It is not however helpful as some in this forum suggest, to insist that they must move on or be left behind.

+1

In this regard, as I've said here recently, I think that the SF leadership handled this quite well.

[Nally Stand]

Nally the IRA apology was conditional, the British have apologised where appropriate e.g. Bloody Sunday.

The IRA apology was not conditional...

"Sunday 21 July marks the 30th anniversary of an IRA operation in Belfast in 1972 which resulted in nine people being killed and many more injured..... It is therefore appropriate on the anniversary of this tragic event, that we address all of the deaths and injuries of non-combatants caused by us.

We offer our sincere apologies and condolences to their families.

There have been fatalities amongst combatants on all sides. We also acknowledge the grief and pain of their relatives....The future will not be found in denying collective failures and mistakes or closing minds and hearts to the plight of those who have been hurt. That includes all of the victims of the conflict, combatants and non-combatants."

The British have apologised where appropriate e.g. Bloody Sunday.

No applesisapples, that is just an apology for the events of one particular day. There are hundreds of families out there bereaved by collusion. Britain has not even admitted involvement, never mind apologised to those families. When the Stevens Report into various accusations of collusion was concluded, the British Government released only 20 heavily edited pages of the 3,000 page report. That to me, is a long way of "Britain having apologised where appropriate". That is Britain continuing to cover up it's activities. Do victims of collusion not fall into this "appropriate for an apology" category?

It is time to move on but as I have stated previously there are some who aren't ready (on both sides) and who might never be ready. We should respect thier postion and try and help where we can. It is not however helpful as some in this forum suggest, to insist that they must move on or be left behind.

Agreed

[Maguire01]

The 'moving on' is a very difficult issue and will be very sensitive for a lot of people.

But if victims of republican violence have had to move and deal with Sinn Fein governing them (or alteratively, be called a dinosaur), then is a visit by the Queen not just something that victims of loyalist and/or state violence will have to stomach, however hard, as part of the bigger picture?

Nally made the following point earlier in the thread:

well I could put it like this, I know a local family who had a member murdered by loyalists. The dogs in the street know these loyalists were acting with security force collusion. That family has never been told the truth. How could I buy into the nonsense line that this visit moves people forward and still look into the eyes of anyone in that family?

By the same score, should Unionist politicians not be able to look straight into the eyes of victims in their communicty after going into government with SF?

By the way, this post isn't meant as 'whataboutery' - just making the point that 'we' all expect people to 'move on' to facilitate the bigger process. And it's going to be very difficult for a lot of people.

I'm sure they are just the same maguire. I'm sure some can deal with it while others find it extremely difficult.  I suppose it helps them when no one questions their victim status or screams in their face to "move on".

Who's victim status is being questioned? I assume you don't mean paramilitaries?

[Maguire01]

The 'moving on' is a very difficult issue and will be very sensitive for a lot of people.

But if victims of republican violence have had to move and deal with Sinn Fein governing them (or alteratively, be called a dinosaur), then is a visit by the Queen not just something that victims of loyalist and/or state violence will have to stomach, however hard, as part of the bigger picture?

Nally made the following point earlier in the thread:

well I could put it like this, I know a local family who had a member murdered by loyalists. The dogs in the street know these loyalists were acting with security force collusion. That family has never been told the truth. How could I buy into the nonsense line that this visit moves people forward and still look into the eyes of anyone in that family?

By the same score, should Unionist politicians not be able to look straight into the eyes of victims in their communicty after going into government with SF?

By the way, this post isn't meant as 'whataboutery' - just making the point that 'we' all expect people to 'move on' to facilitate the bigger process. And it's going to be very difficult for a lot of people.

There are a few subtle differences:

1. People vote for SF, so SF have a democratic mandate to be in a power sharing executive as outlined in the GFA, voted for by the majority of the Irish people.
2. The IRA apologised to all it's non-combatant victims in 2002 and has never denied to those victims that it was an active participant in a conflict. It's 2011 and the British Government still has not done this.

We could get hung up on subtle differences. But do you really think that the IRA apology made any significant difference to its victims? I'm not so sure it would have made it much easier for them to move on.

[pintsofguinness]

The 'moving on' is a very difficult issue and will be very sensitive for a lot of people.

But if victims of republican violence have had to move and deal with Sinn Fein governing them (or alteratively, be called a dinosaur), then is a visit by the Queen not just something that victims of loyalist and/or state violence will have to stomach, however hard, as part of the bigger picture?

Nally made the following point earlier in the thread:

well I could put it like this, I know a local family who had a member murdered by loyalists. The dogs in the street know these loyalists were acting with security force collusion. That family has never been told the truth. How could I buy into the nonsense line that this visit moves people forward and still look into the eyes of anyone in that family?

By the same score, should Unionist politicians not be able to look straight into the eyes of victims in their communicty after going into government with SF?

By the way, this post isn't meant as 'whataboutery' - just making the point that 'we' all expect people to 'move on' to facilitate the bigger process. And it's going to be very difficult for a lot of people.

I'm sure they are just the same maguire. I'm sure some can deal with it while others find it extremely difficult.  I suppose it helps them when no one questions their victim status or screams in their face to "move on".

Who's victim status is being questioned? I assume you don't mean paramilitaries?

Those killed or maimed by British state forces where they have refused to admit any wrong doing and those killed due to collusion.  The same ones who never received any meaningful investigation in to their deaths never mind any justice.

[Maguire01]

The 'moving on' is a very difficult issue and will be very sensitive for a lot of people.

But if victims of republican violence have had to move and deal with Sinn Fein governing them (or alteratively, be called a dinosaur), then is a visit by the Queen not just something that victims of loyalist and/or state violence will have to stomach, however hard, as part of the bigger picture?

Nally made the following point earlier in the thread:

well I could put it like this, I know a local family who had a member murdered by loyalists. The dogs in the street know these loyalists were acting with security force collusion. That family has never been told the truth. How could I buy into the nonsense line that this visit moves people forward and still look into the eyes of anyone in that family?

By the same score, should Unionist politicians not be able to look straight into the eyes of victims in their communicty after going into government with SF?

By the way, this post isn't meant as 'whataboutery' - just making the point that 'we' all expect people to 'move on' to facilitate the bigger process. And it's going to be very difficult for a lot of people.

I'm sure they are just the same maguire. I'm sure some can deal with it while others find it extremely difficult.  I suppose it helps them when no one questions their victim status or screams in their face to "move on".

Who's victim status is being questioned? I assume you don't mean paramilitaries?

Those killed or maimed by British state forces where they have refused to admit any wrong doing and those killed due to collusion.  The same ones who never received any meaningful investigation in to their deaths never mind any justice.

I'm not sure their victim status is being questioned.

[Orangemac]

According to the examiner tyrone,fermanagh, derry and antrim didn't get an invite. Instead fuhrer cooney told them he was the only one allowed to comment on the visit. It also says Cavan, monaghan & donegal didn't show up although it doesn't say whether they were actually invited.

This seems to be the way Cooney has been running the GAA. I have no problem with the Queen coming to Croke Park but each county board should have the right to decide whether they attended this or not AND the right to express their opinion on this.

The GAA prides itself on how democratic it is but it has resembled a communist version of democracy over the last few years.

[Applesisapples]

Nally the IRA apology was conditional, the British have apologised where appropriate e.g. Bloody Sunday.

The IRA apology was not conditional...

"Sunday 21 July marks the 30th anniversary of an IRA operation in Belfast in 1972 which resulted in nine people being killed and many more injured..... It is therefore appropriate on the anniversary of this tragic event, that we address all of the deaths and injuries of non-combatants caused by us.

We offer our sincere apologies and condolences to their families.

There have been fatalities amongst combatants on all sides. We also acknowledge the grief and pain of their relatives....The future will not be found in denying collective failures and mistakes or closing minds and hearts to the plight of those who have been hurt. That includes all of the victims of the conflict, combatants and non-combatants."

The British have apologised where appropriate e.g. Bloody Sunday.

No applesisapples, that is just an apology for the events of one particular day. There are hundreds of families out there bereaved by collusion. Britain has not even admitted involvement, never mind apologised to those families. When the Stevens Report into various accusations of collusion was concluded, the British Government released only 20 heavily edited pages of the 3,000 page report. That to me, is a long way of "Britain having apologised where appropriate". That is Britain continuing to cover up it's activities. Do victims of collusion not fall into this "appropriate for an apology" category?

It is time to move on but as I have stated previously there are some who aren't ready (on both sides) and who might never be ready. We should respect their postion and try and help where we can. It is not however helpful as some in this forum suggest, to insist that they must move on or be left behind.

Agreed

The IRA apology does not include British combatants and is therefore conditional as is the British apology. The point I am making is that a Sovereign Government can't issue the type of apology you want norwill the IRA issue the grovelling apology Willie Frazer demands. But I believe the words of the queen and the words you have quoted are sufficient at this time. It maybe that in 20 years time things will be different and a more wholesome and all encompassing apology is given by all.