Election 2011 Offical Thread.

[muppet]

A Republican and on the right? I would say it is possible in the simplest definition of "Republican", but "Irish Republicanism" has developed into a political ideology in it's own right and is grounded in the left.

It will remain a fringe group with that thinking.

Look at the lunacy of the wealth tax proposal for example. What has that got to do with Republicanism?

[Poc me]

Muppet I hardly think John Mitchell could be aligned to the extreme left or indeed any of the leaders in the 18th/19th century. egalitarians yes, but hardly communists. The 19th century rebellions were driven by Nationalism as the core objective but nationalism tends to be associated with right wing politics in other parts of the world. I do agree though that revolutionary politics in Ireland is aligned to the left as is most revolutionary politics. The problems in the past were not class struggles, they were national struggles against an oppressor. The Irish people are conservative at heart, a trait replicated in other largely agrarian societies (I appreciate that Ireland is becoming less agrarian over the past 30 years).

The last 'revolution' was 1917-1921 and the outcome was a very clerical, conservative state that was cemented in the Constituion (with the privileged position of the CHurch). Not the traits of a left wing revolution.

The outcome is one thing. 1916 was the trigger and those leaders weren't hiding their left leanings.

The question is today can you be a Republican and on the right? Because it certainly doesn't look like it.

Mayo GHU thinks you can be a republican on the right!  FF are a right wing party (based on capitalist principles) and claim to be the republican party.

Personally speaking I think you can be slightly on the right and still be a republican. You can be anti-monarchy, in favour of an egalitarian society and ensure that there are equal rights etc. People ahve lost sight of what political ideologies actually stand for. In the north for example and SDLP member probably wouldn't want to be declared republican as it may align them with SF but they would be republican in political objectives (SDLP members may well see themselves as Republican but feel aggrieved that they can't call themselves such).

[Bogball XV]

Muppet I hardly think John Mitchell could be aligned to the extreme left or indeed any of the leaders in the 18th/19th century. egalitarians yes, but hardly communists. The 19th century rebellions were driven by Nationalism as the core objective but nationalism tends to be associated with right wing politics in other parts of the world. I do agree though that revolutionary politics in Ireland is aligned to the left as is most revolutionary politics. The problems in the past were not class struggles, they were national struggles against an oppressor. The Irish people are conservative at heart, a trait replicated in other largely agrarian societies (I appreciate that Ireland is becoming less agrarian over the past 30 years).

The last 'revolution' was 1917-1921 and the outcome was a very clerical, conservative state that was cemented in the Constituion (with the privileged position of the CHurch). Not the traits of a left wing revolution.

Mitchell was hardly egalitarian, he fought for the south in the american civil war and the shinners have only recently joined the left front, was that not one of the driving factors behind the split from Labour (the Workers Party) originally?

[Poc me]

Muppet I hardly think John Mitchell could be aligned to the extreme left or indeed any of the leaders in the 18th/19th century. egalitarians yes, but hardly communists. The 19th century rebellions were driven by Nationalism as the core objective but nationalism tends to be associated with right wing politics in other parts of the world. I do agree though that revolutionary politics in Ireland is aligned to the left as is most revolutionary politics. The problems in the past were not class struggles, they were national struggles against an oppressor. The Irish people are conservative at heart, a trait replicated in other largely agrarian societies (I appreciate that Ireland is becoming less agrarian over the past 30 years).

The last 'revolution' was 1917-1921 and the outcome was a very clerical, conservative state that was cemented in the Constituion (with the privileged position of the CHurch). Not the traits of a left wing revolution.

Mitchell was hardly egalitarian, he fought for the south in the american civil war and the shinners have only recently joined the left front, was that not one of the driving factors behind the split from Labour (the Workers Party) originally?

Bogball, the egalitarian thing was directed at the 18th/19th century leaders as a group. Yes Mitchell was in modern terms a racist. However, it should be noted that egalitarianism in that period was largely for white people. Sure weren't the writers of the US Declaration egalitarian in there own minds yet were against the freedom of the slaves (t. Jefferson was one of the largest slave holders in America).

YOu can't really compare modern day egalitarianism to 18th/mid-19th century egalitarianism. In saying that though there were people in Ireland who would ahve been obviously in favour of the Union side and fought on the Union side in the US Civil War.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Sinn Fein just keeps on saying 'Yes' to teachers
By Katherine Donnelly


Thursday February 17 2011

SINN Fein has been caught out giving different answers to teachers over how much it would spend on education if it was in government.

The party's pledges of a huge increase in education spending have left it red-faced, after its differing answers left an unexplained gap of €1.5bn.

It has promised the Irish National Teachers Organisation (INTO) that education spending will rise to 6pc of national income, officially termed GDP.

But when the party was asked by the Teachers Union of Ireland (TUI) if it would increase education spending to 7pc of national income, Sinn Fein also replied: "Yes." The difference between the party's conflicting pledges is about €1.5bn a year.

The current Government's spend on education as a proportion of national income is less than 5pc and among the lowest in the developed world.

The TUI has asked its members to support candidates from parties "which have given sincere and positive responses" to a series of questions on education policy, including spending.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

FG 16
Labour 7
Greens 5
FF 3
Sinn Fein -6

[Poc me]

Labour 16
SF 14
Green 3
FG 0
FF -14

[muppet]

I honestly think any solution to the current crisis will need parties and ideologies from both the left and the right.

Cuts will have to happen thank to the reckless spending by the previous Government (Labour/SF will find it hard to live with that). But cuts alone won't save us and taxes will increase (FG will find it hard to live with that).

Rather than having one group trying to get the others to pay for everything, a joint approach where all sides pay their way is probably the only solution. Even then the banks are so screwed we might not be able to afford it.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

I honestly think any solution to the current crisis will need parties and ideologies from both the left and the right.

Cuts will have to happen thank to the reckless spending by the previous Government (Labour/SF will find it hard to live with that). But cuts alone won't save us and taxes will increase (FG will find it hard to live with that).

Rather than having one group trying to get the others to pay for everything, a joint approach where all sides pay their way is probably the only solution. Even then the banks are so screwed we might not be able to afford it.

Have you seen the Labour adds attacking FG because they are going to be increasing taxes??

[muppet]

I honestly think any solution to the current crisis will need parties and ideologies from both the left and the right.

Cuts will have to happen thank to the reckless spending by the previous Government (Labour/SF will find it hard to live with that). But cuts alone won't save us and taxes will increase (FG will find it hard to live with that).

Rather than having one group trying to get the others to pay for everything, a joint approach where all sides pay their way is probably the only solution. Even then the banks are so screwed we might not be able to afford it.

Have you seen the Labour adds attacking FG because they are going to be increasing taxes??

Remember Michael McDowell's master stroke that stopped FF getting a majority? They still went into Government together. After the election all the manifestos will be irrelevant and they will do a deal. Politics is a scummy arena when you think about it.

[AZOffaly]

Here we go with the first of the Munster predictions. 4 Constituencies predicted, which brings us up to 87 seats in total. Obviously 44 would have you at an overall majority at this stage, but FG are still hovering 10% under that magical mark. Sinn Fein's predictions are wildly optimistic, but even so, It appears that we are predicting a FG/LAB coalition at the end of this. FF would probably be happy enough with 19 seats at this stage.

87 seats predicted
Fine Gael - 35
Fianna Fail - 19
Sinn Fein - 17
Labour - 11
Others - 5



the 4 Munster predictions

[Bogball XV]

Tonight's prime time was the best programme I've seen on the election thusfar.  Joan and Noonan both came across reasonably well and their ideas on the default (sorry restructuring) were reasonable, although FG don't seem prepared to push for much of a haircut, possibly that's just the rhetoric that Angela told Enda he has to pedal so as to not unsettle the bond markets over the next few months?
Despite this, having either FG or Labour in govt on their own is not something I'd be in favour of, I'd be happy enough for FG to get about 60 seats and Labour to take 40 and let them fight out the details on spending cuts that way (not that such things matter in the short term, but in the longer term it'd be good to have a programme where we actually balance our income and expenditure).

It was very heartening as well to hear that Noonan reckons the eurobond will happen, as imo, without that we are truly fcuked.

[muppet]

Tonight's prime time was the best programme I've seen on the election thusfar.  Joan and Noonan both came across reasonably well and their ideas on the default (sorry restructuring) were reasonable, although FG don't seem prepared to push for much of a haircut, possibly that's just the rhetoric that Angela told Enda he has to pedal so as to not unsettle the bond markets over the next few months?
Despite this, having either FG or Labour in govt on their own is not something I'd be in favour of, I'd be happy enough for FG to get about 60 seats and Labour to take 40 and let them fight out the details on spending cuts that way (not that such things matter in the short term, but in the longer term it'd be good to have a programme where we actually balance our income and expenditure).

It was very heartening as well to hear that Noonan reckons the eurobond will happen, as imo, without that we are truly fcuked.

Agreed, although I think both will come in a little higher.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Tonight's prime time was the best programme I've seen on the election thusfar.  Joan and Noonan both came across reasonably well and their ideas on the default (sorry restructuring) were reasonable, although FG don't seem prepared to push for much of a haircut, possibly that's just the rhetoric that Angela told Enda he has to pedal so as to not unsettle the bond markets over the next few months?
Despite this, having either FG or Labour in govt on their own is not something I'd be in favour of, I'd be happy enough for FG to get about 60 seats and Labour to take 40 and let them fight out the details on spending cuts that way (not that such things matter in the short term, but in the longer term it'd be good to have a programme where we actually balance our income and expenditure).

It was very heartening as well to hear that Noonan reckons the eurobond will happen, as imo, without that we are truly fcuked.

Do you honestly see Gilmore/Burton/Shortall being able to make large cuts in public sector spending and facing down the unions??

[Hound]

Two of the big union honchos, Jack O'Connor and David Begg, have both been very critical of FG in recent days. They're scared of FG getting too far ahead and not needing Labour.