Margaret Thatcher....

[updown9194]

Just before the passage of the Act of Union, was Ireland being governed as a single entity or was it not?

It's actually plural - Act(s) of Union. Westminster and Grattan's Parliament had to vote for it both, hence 1800 and 1801 being used as a date.

(EDIT: Sorry, the date confusion is actually owing to the delay of it coming into effect.)

[lynchbhoy]

As yes Fear ón Srath Bán you should always ignore any contary opinion that contains a typo. Its how one demonstrates maturity and illustratse the integrity of one's argument.

Nally Stand's claims on population movement seem crazed and demented. Others have a good job in exposing that (see above)

Eamonnca1's claim on the governance of Ireland as a single unit are simply not true. He correctly points out that the parliament sat from 1297 until 1800 but he fails to recognise that it not rule Ireland and made little attempt to rule it as a single entity. He makes no mention of the Celtic kings, the brehon law or the english control of the Irish Parliament for most of this time and their use of it as a means of standardisng taxation. Something they failed to do because of the existance of the Celtic Kings and the brehon laws. Ireland definitively was not ruled as a single entity in this period, certainly not from within Ireland. My original point stands.

Rossfan might well be frustrated with the drawing of the border. There was always going to be frustration. My original point was around IRA terror. You will at least accept that the nuances of the border could never justify murder?

Splitting counties was an option. How seriously was it pushed by pro-treatyites/nationalists?

Seafoid's contention that a 6 county state is automatically gerrymandering is nonsense. As pointed out already there has never been a united Ireland and its not obvious that decisions have to me made on unitary all-ireland basis. Its never happened before. It also worth pointing out that there was a pro-union marjority in a 9 county Ulster. If it was a gerrymandered land-grab they could have taken all 9.

Of course there was no 6 county entity mention in earlier Irish history. The creation of NI did not seek its legitimacy in lore or history but in the democratic will of the majority.

Lynchboy makes the same mistake of just presuming that democracy only works on an All-ireland basis.

A majority in the 6 counties wanted to remain in UK. They remained in the UK. I call that democracy.

How any of this justify IRA murders I do not know. Republicans murdered over 2000 people post '69. Which deaths achieved the IRA's stated goals?

This is and what the loyalist/unionist problem has been from the outset. A real ostrich perspective of sticking theirs heads in the sand and willingly/knowingly ignoring reality and truth.

It is not democracy to cherry pick a selected section of an overall region where voting follows a certain way and exclude it from the overall vote.

I think lcohen is on the wum here as no one in the modern era could be as Neanderthally closed minded to believe that the gerrymandering annexing of the six counties was democratic.

I'd like to see how he/she can substantiate this , maybe with examples of this being legally done elsewhere - while not the same, we all know the continuing problems that the creation of the Israeli country has caused!

So if lcohen and loyalists/unionists believe in this method of democracy, we need only to stage the referendum for reunification of Ireland in counties Derry, Tyrone and Fermanagh- the result will determine whether we reunify or not. The other three counties will have to abide by this result.

I can't see why loyalists/unionists would object to this, as it is conforming to their precedent and application of democracy!

[johnneycool]

take it a step further and allow voting on a local council level.

That'd leave some mess of a place, but it too would be democracy at work!

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Seafoid's contention that a 6 county state is automatically gerrymandering is nonsense. As pointed out already there has never been a united Ireland and its not obvious that decisions have to me made on unitary all-ireland basis. Its never happened before. It also worth pointing out that there was a pro-union marjority in a 9 county Ulster. If it was a gerrymandered land-grab they could have taken all 9.

This snippet tells us all we need to know about what informs your particular perspective, alas.

• Ireland was a unitary state prior to the Norman invasion of 1169, not a very unified unitary state, but a homogeneous state in geographical, cultural, and traditional terms nonetheless. And judged by contemporary political entities, there was no state that was more unified in the world at that particular time (none of this disingenuous nonsense of comparing Ireland in the first millenium with political norms in the third).
• The 6 Counties were drawn up on a purely crude sectarian headcount basis (predicated on the threat or (copious) use of 'loyalist' violence, which is OK with you it seems) -- Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan would have been included, if the border bigots weren't fearful for their 'majority in perpetuity'. And nationalist Fermanagh and Tyrone were included in their carve-up since they thought their majority in the other 4 counties would always outweigh the nationalist preponderance therein; though they were wrong, as it's demographically dawning on them now.
• Should that eventuality come to pass, where the unionists are outvoted in the 6 Counties, and as looks very likely demographically now, they [some unionists] have indicated they won't accept that expression of wish of the new 'majority', and will either fight to resist or agitate to have the lines of partition redrawn -- you'll find no problem with that perspective either I assume?
  

[Nally Stand]

Nally Stand's claims on population movement seem crazed and demented.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qNDx0wXsLC8C&pg=PR41&lpg=PR41&dq=belfast+catholics+biggest+population+since+second+world+war&source=bl&ots=ewh8nVVZZC&sig=tMyr9bPwU1-Bli4QO6IG9h66Clo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xE52UbjNLaGT0AW464D4Dg&ved=0CFsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=belfast%20catholics%20biggest%20population%20since%20second%20world%20war&f=false
"Hundreds of homes belonging to Catholics were set alight and within days, Belfast witnessed the largest population displacement since the Second World War." The Dirty War, Martin Dillon


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/topics/troubles_everyday_life
"Northern Ireland saw the biggest population movement in Europe since the Second World War" Denis Murray, BBC Ireland Correspondent


http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/1/1/2/6/pages211262/p211262-14.php
"Loyalist rioting and violence in response to a peaceful civil rights campaign caused genuine threats to civic order and the most massive population shift in Europe since the end of the Second World War." Timothy D. Hoyt US Naval War College


http://www.socialistworld.net/pubs/tt/ch11.html
"After internment in 1971, the widespread intimidation resulted in the greatest population shift then seen in Europe since the second world war."


http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/frankiequinn/quinn94/
"By February 1973, 60,000 people – ten percent of the city's population – had moved out of their homes in what was, at the time, the biggest population displacement in Europe since World War Two."


http://www.theworkersrepublic.com/brendan-hughes-memoirs---review.html
Loyalist ethnic cleansing of Catholic/Nationalist areas in Belfast, had caused the largest population displacement in Western Europe, since World War 2

[LeoMc]

take it a step further and allow voting on a local council level.

That'd leave some mess of a place, but it too would be democracy at work!

You could be onto something there. For election purposes we are already divided into wards which can be shifted from constituency to constituency as boundaries are redrawn so we could take it right down to that level. Think of the benefits. All that extra border, think of the smuggling potential! It could be the kick start the economy needs. Why should them Armagh wans get all the diesel income.

[deiseach]

Joe Lee performs a magisterial demolition of Unionist pretensions to democracy in the opening chapter of his magnum opus, Ireland, 1912-1985: Politics and Society. The first fifteen pages are available on Google Books. It's well worth reading in its entirety, but a summary would be that the rhetoric of the Ulster Covenant and its supporters was quite clear that it didn't matter how many Papists there were. To accept 'democracy' would be to imply that one Catholic was worth one Protestant, and that would never do. And he quite rightly notes later on in the book that the greatest betrayal of all was allowing the Protestants of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan to be placed in the Hell on Earth that was the Rome-ruled Free State, all so Unionism could maintain hegemony over as large a territory as possible without ever having to worry that the mudmen might outbreed them as might have happened had partition included a nine-county Ulster.

[Rossfan]

Ahh now Nally - you're simply being "unhelpful" and shouldn't be bringing up all that oul guff about the past.
Sure we all know the 6 Cos was a lovely place till for no reason at all a crowd called the Provisional IRA started a mindless campaign of violence in 1971 or so.
And if any of us don't know that won't MichaeleenG, LCohen etc continue to point that out here plus of course the DUP,UUP, Wullie Frazer ( remember him ? ) PUP, Ulster(sic) this that and the other will also tell us.
When will they ever learn the blind , head in the sand bigots.

[LeoMc]

'The idea that partition was anti-democratic is absurd'.

So, if Derry wished to secede from the Union, along with Fermanagh and South Tyrone, then it would be fine?

Democracy was concieved by Greeks who used the term ochlocracy to distinguish it from 'mob rule'. Partition by its very nature was ochlocratic if you take into consideration the foundation of the UVF as a fairly clear spur towards British appeasement of northern loyalists.

The boundary commission was* due to report back on its plans to reduce from 18 parliamentary seats to 16 by the end of the year. That could be the easy way to do it

*Postponed to 2018 and to be based on the 2015 electoral register.

[Nally Stand]

The options of democrary, protest (e.g. the civil rights movement) and exposé (embarass the mis-rule internationally) were the obvious routes to go.

I think Burntollet Bridge and Bloody Sunday tick both those boxes. Funny enough, they didn't spark a revival in fortunes for the Catholic population. Any other suggestions?

2. The IRA of the trouble's era came into existence due the failure of political leadership in the Catholic/nationalist community. They filled tat gap with their poison. As a young boy the knock my door and the doors in my street trying to get lads involved in murder. I still regard that as child abuse.

Right!!! So the IRA came about due to a failure of political leadership among Catholics?!! What with the lack of voting rights for Catholics for so long and the gerrymandering of borders, you might have to remind me which of the Catholic political leaders caused the re-emergence of the IRA? Probably just a coincidence that it came about around the same time as 200 Catholic homes were burnt to the ground in this oh so democratic haven of yours.

3. Warrington happened. It was real. It was terrible. How did it advance the rights of Catholic or the unification of Ireland? Whether it typifies the IRA campaign is irrelvant unless you are are arguing that some IRA bombers were heroes and some were murderers.

Again, you present it in an attempt to present the IRA campaign as just being full of 'Warringtons'. Which is just dishonest, sensationalist bull.

[Nally Stand]

LCohens Quick Step Guide to Contemporary Irish History:

1. Ireland was democratically occupied
2. It was then democratically partitioned along sectarian democratic lines
3. Catholics were democratically discriminated against in voting rights and constituency boundaries were democratically gerrymandered
4. The democratic prohibiting of Catholics from participating in fair elections led to "the failure of the Catholic/Nationalist political leadership" (who ever these Catholic/Nationalist political leaders were) which caused the emergence of the IRA.
5. The IRA ruthlessly murdered thousands of innocent people for no reason whatsoever.
6. Nothing else happened and it was therefor all the IRA's fault.

[seafoid]

LCohens Quick Step Guide to Contemporary Irish History:

1. Ireland was democratically occupied
2. It was then democratically partitioned along sectarian democratic lines
3. Catholics were democratically discriminated against in voting rights and constituency boundaries were democratically gerrymandered
4. The democratic prohibiting of Catholics from participating in fair elections led to "the failure of the Catholic/Nationalist political leadership" (who ever these Catholic/Nationalist political leaders were) which caused the emergence of the IRA.
5. The IRA ruthlessly murdered thousands of innocent people for no reason whatsoever.
6. Nothing else happened and it was therefor all the IRA's fault.

I wonder if BallDeBeaver and Lcohen know each other.

[Rossfan]

LCohens  Many  Unionists Quick Step Guide to Contemporary Irish History:

1. Ireland was democratically occupied
2. It was then democratically partitioned along sectarian democratic lines
3. Catholics were democratically discriminated against in voting rights and constituency boundaries were democratically gerrymandered
4. The democratic prohibiting of Catholics from participating in fair elections led to "the failure of the Catholic/Nationalist political leadership" (who ever these Catholic/Nationalist political leaders were) which caused the emergence of the IRA.
5. The IRA ruthlessly murdered thousands of innocent people for no reason whatsoever.
6. Nothing else happened and it was therefor all the IRA's fault.

Fixed that for you 

[LCohen]

LCohens Quick Step Guide to Contemporary Irish History:

1. Ireland was democratically occupied
2. It was then democratically partitioned along sectarian democratic lines
3. Catholics were democratically discriminated against in voting rights and constituency boundaries were democratically gerrymandered
4. The democratic prohibiting of Catholics from participating in fair elections led to "the failure of the Catholic/Nationalist political leadership" (who ever these Catholic/Nationalist political leaders were) which caused the emergence of the IRA.
5. The IRA ruthlessly murdered thousands of innocent people for no reason whatsoever.
6. Nothing else happened and it was therefor all the IRA's fault.

You do have course know that I have never denied that Ireland was occupied via a plantation and wider military rule. If peolpe's sectarian stance influences their democratic choices then alas dividing a land mass on democratic lines will result in a division on sectarian grounds also.
ically occupied
Have I ever denied that Catholics were discriminated against?

When faced with mis-rule and discrimination I never denied that something had to be done. What I have argued is that there was no excuse for a campaign of murder. The failure of Catholic/Nationalist leadership was to not sustain the peaceful campaign and allowing the provos to put themselves forward as an alternative. I have never blamed Catholic/Nathionalist leadership for the abuses perpetrated by Unionist/Britich rule. I do blame for allowing that void that the provos sought to occupy.


Your 5th point is interesting. And begs the key question -Which IRA murders were worth it and achieved the IRA goals?5. Name names.

[LCohen]

The options of democrary, protest (e.g. the civil rights movement) and exposé (embarass the mis-rule internationally) were the obvious routes to go.

I think Burntollet Bridge and Bloody Sunday tick both those boxes. Funny enough, they didn't spark a revival in fortunes for the Catholic population. Any other suggestions?

2. The IRA of the trouble's era came into existence due the failure of political leadership in the Catholic/nationalist community. They filled tat gap with their poison. As a young boy the knock my door and the doors in my street trying to get lads involved in murder. I still regard that as child abuse.

Right!!! So the IRA came about due to a failure of political leadership among Catholics?!! What with the lack of voting rights for Catholics for so long and the gerrymandering of borders, you might have to remind me which of the Catholic political leaders caused the re-emergence of the IRA? Probably just a coincidence that it came about around the same time as 200 Catholic homes were burnt to the ground in this oh so democratic haven of yours.

3. Warrington happened. It was real. It was terrible. How did it advance the rights of Catholic or the unification of Ireland? Whether it typifies the IRA campaign is irrelvant unless you are are arguing that some IRA bombers were heroes and some were murderers.

Again, you present it in an attempt to present the IRA campaign as just being full of 'Warringtons'. Which is just dishonest, sensationalist bull.

Where peaceful protest does not work you seemingly argue it should cease. I assume you contend the IRA's campaign of violence and murder was successful from the off and throughout. A bizarre contention.

The fact that you can't address the Warrington issue head on is telling. Very.