Margaret Thatcher....

[seafoid]

Better bury her somewhere secret or cremate her. Someone might do what they did to Cromwell and dig her up and hang her.

Maybe they'll bury her at sea a la Bin Laden.

I have to say that it is great that she died under a Tory Government. The UK is in a real economic mess in no small part thanks to George Osborne's policies and it might not take much to get people going.
The Tories can't help lionising her but they are 10 points behind Labour in the polls already. Labour doesn't have to do anything.   

[seafoid]

Looking forward to the Reading v Liverpool game on Sat 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37Cmzvt549Y

[Minder]

I'm no Tory but some people have short memories of what went on in Labours 15 years of government and the state of the economy when they left office. Labour were saying they would impose deeper cuts than the Thatcher era conservatives, before the last General Election. Tony Blair helped invent a war for fucks sake, a bigger rogue you won't find.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-margaret-thatcher

[Minder]

Better bury her somewhere secret or cremate her. Someone might do what they did to Cromwell and dig her up and hang her.

Maybe they'll bury her at sea a la Bin Laden.

I have to say that it is great that she died under a Tory Government. The UK is in a real economic mess in no small part thanks to George Osborne's policies and it might not take much to get people going.
The Tories can't help lionising her but they are 10 points behind Labour in the polls already. Labour doesn't have to do anything.

Yeah it was in great nick when Labour left office in 2010, what was the note ex-Treasury Secretary Liam Byrne left for his Tory successor ? "There is no money left".

[seafoid]

Better bury her somewhere secret or cremate her. Someone might do what they did to Cromwell and dig her up and hang her.

Maybe they'll bury her at sea a la Bin Laden.

I have to say that it is great that she died under a Tory Government. The UK is in a real economic mess in no small part thanks to George Osborne's policies and it might not take much to get people going.
The Tories can't help lionising her but they are 10 points behind Labour in the polls already. Labour doesn't have to do anything.

Yeah it was in great nick when Labour left office in 2010, what was the note ex-Treasury Secretary Liam Byrne left for his Tory successor ? "There is no money left".

The Tories decided on austerity alone, Minder. Not Labour.
Sure Labour made mistakes but they aren't in power now. Osborne promised to bring growth back.
He can't. Thank God the Tories are running the show now. This crisis will destroy the myth
that they are economically competent. 

[lawnseed]

hold on a fukn minute i specifically avoided this thread because i didnt want to be labled the typical bitter shinner. but carol thatcher has been welcomed to the thatcher home by "SIR" mark thatcher. this fuker is a lord, 'lord fukn thatcher' it just gets better by the day

[maddog]

hold on a fukn minute i specifically avoided this thread because i didnt want to be labled the typical bitter shinner. but carol thatcher has been welcomed to the thatcher home by "SIR" mark thatcher. this fuker is a lord, 'lord fukn thatcher' it just gets better by the day

Mark Thatcher should be labelled an international terrorist for trying to organise a coup in Equatorial Guinea. An a total clot for not being able to read a map.

[Tony Baloney]

Better bury her somewhere secret or cremate her. Someone might do what they did to Cromwell and dig her up and hang her.

Maybe they'll bury her at sea a la Bin Laden.

I have to say that it is great that she died under a Tory Government. The UK is in a real economic mess in no small part thanks to George Osborne's policies and it might not take much to get people going.
The Tories can't help lionising her but they are 10 points behind Labour in the polls already. Labour doesn't have to do anything.

Yeah it was in great nick when Labour left office in 2010, what was the note ex-Treasury Secretary Liam Byrne left for his Tory successor ? "There is no money left".

The Tories decided on austerity alone, Minder. Not Labour.
Sure Labour made mistakes but they aren't in power now. Osborne promised to bring growth back.
He can't. Thank God the Tories are running the show now. This crisis will destroy the myth
that they are economically competent.

All of which is true but Labour didn't help by emptying the coffers before they left office. If I was taking over a business I would prefer some money in the pot than starting off in debt. However Labour, like Ireland thought the good times were here to stay and adopted a spend, spend, spend policy. We know how that worked out. I am all for the welfare system but only if they got all the spongers off it and paid those who need it an amount they can live on. If someone has worked for years and paid NI contributions then 60 quid a week is some kick in the teeth.

[Minder]

Better bury her somewhere secret or cremate her. Someone might do what they did to Cromwell and dig her up and hang her.

Maybe they'll bury her at sea a la Bin Laden.

I have to say that it is great that she died under a Tory Government. The UK is in a real economic mess in no small part thanks to George Osborne's policies and it might not take much to get people going.
The Tories can't help lionising her but they are 10 points behind Labour in the polls already. Labour doesn't have to do anything.

Yeah it was in great nick when Labour left office in 2010, what was the note ex-Treasury Secretary Liam Byrne left for his Tory successor ? "There is no money left".

The Tories decided on austerity alone, Minder. Not Labour.
Sure Labour made mistakes but they aren't in power now. Osborne promised to bring growth back.
He can't. Thank God the Tories are running the show now. This crisis will destroy the myth
that they are economically competent.

All of which is true but Labour didn't help by emptying the coffers before they left office. If I was taking over a business I would prefer some money in the pot than starting off in debt. However Labour, like Ireland thought the good times were here to stay and adopted a spend, spend, spend policy. We know how that worked out. I am all for the welfare system but only if they got all the spongers off it and paid those who need it an amount they can live on. If someone has worked for years and paid NI contributions then 60 quid a week is some kick in the teeth.

Any polls there have been recently Labour voters have agreed the welfare state needs reformed, I think it's obvious and you don't have to be right winger to hold that view.

[LCohen]

Presumably if you don't believe the conspiracy theories (that the junta were entrapped into the war) then the war was not unavoidable. I'm not sure anbody credible believes that the british demilitarised the Falklands in order to entice an ontherwise peaceable right wing brutal junta with severe domestic issues to invade and the troops to turn right around and travel back across the world and win a war in time for an election. I think the idea that the election was called early to capitalise on her new found popularity (ultimately disasterous for the british people) is a lot more plausable.

By the time the Argentine forces had taken over Port Stanley, then military confrontation was perhaps pretty much unavoidable by that point (or perhaps even by the time they landed on the islands) as we were dealing with two hardcases here. However it isn't discredited that steps in diplomacy, which had been happening between the two governments for a few years prior, were likely not exhausted before an invasion took place. Up until that time the UK government not only reduced the amount of armed personnel on the islands, the British Nationality Act of 1981 also tightened the rights of Falklands residents to claiming the right of abode or to settle in the UK without showing due connection (though this didn't just affect them but also many others in what are now British Overseas Territories).

So we are agreed that at the time of the declaration of War that Britain had no option.

Your point that it was avoidable at an earlier stage is interesting. I can't prove that efforts at diplomacy were exhausted but to lend authority to your argument do you have any evidence that the Argie Junta were or would have yielded to diplomacy. I'm not aware of any evidence and on that basis it hard to accept that your point has any legs.

What was the Thatcher/Reagan relationship like at that time? We know what it was like later but back then was it strong enough?

Since Ronald Regan came into office about 18 months prior, one would assume that a decent rapport had been built up especially as both would share many points of ideology. Arguably Thatcher was even more forceful on some foreign policy matters than Regan was.

I'm not aware of any any evidence that Reagan and Thatcher hit it off from the off. In fact Reagan (for his own unpleasant reasons) was against UK's action in the Falklands. Thatcher embarrassed him into changing his mind. His impression of her from that moment is recognised as the key point in triggering their subsequent close political relationship.
Your original point hinges on the close relationship between the 2 individuals being used toprevent the war. That relationship did not exist at the time and consequently your argument is baseless.

A significant body of credible comemtators would point to the Argies true motives - a distracting attack against a foreign enemy. Debt foreclosue by that same enemy as a means of preventing an attack on that enemy is interesting. Have a strange feeling the argies would have launched their attack with greater ugency in that scenario.

Of course the Argentine Junta invaded as a distraction tacit against poor governance by them which resulted in being very unpopular with the Argentine public, so decided to play the ubernationalist card and invade the Falklands - which ended up as an "epic fail" and they were tossed out soon after. The thing about any attempt at debt foreclosure is that while it might have not stopped enough for an initial invasion, it would clearly not last as no money would be available to keep a meaningful occupation ongoing beyond the short term. It's also worth remembering that the then EEC countries were generally supportive of the UK as well with imposing economic sanctions on Argentina - though in Ireland's case they weakened their support to the UK after the Belgrano sinking.

SO we agree that the Argies were the agressors and Uk had broad and growing international support at the time of the invasion.

She pretty much smashed the Munroe Doctrine dead by the finish.

It doubtful whether the original british occupation of the Falklands was a breach of the convention. The decision to re-militarise it in 1982 certainly was not a breach. How could it have been?

The original taking of the islands probably wasn't even though it was done after the doctrine declaration. As to 1982, that depends if in your view that the Argentine invasion seen the islands as being Argentine or not. The international political climate at the time concerning the Cold War meant such conflict worried the USA and they themselves tried to help broker a peace deal before siding with the British.

You seem a lot less certain that the Doctrine was breached and have failed to point out any evidence that it was breached. It mot a matter of "depending on your point of view." For your agrument to hold water you need to point out that it was was a breach of the doctrine because ...... (and insert some evidence).

In the end many British lives (leaving aside any Argentine ones - they should be left in the hands of their Junta really) were lost either though a naive overseas territory policy or a deliberate bit of international grandstanding. And for many British soldiers who fought to expel the Argentine forces, they later ended up being regarded as "the enemy within".

Naive? Explain how Britain could have ignored the islander' pleas?

One, as I pointed out above, the islanders themselves where mostly not full British citizens. Two, it could be argued that the Argentines did not and had no known plans to target civilian residents on the islands and had assurances been given by the Junta to not harm or expel them then international pressure would be maintained to ensure a more peaceful resolution but ultimately this crossed the point of no return. Third, there had been a continuing policy of decolonisation of many territories from former European powers at the time, and indeed this was one of the tactics that the Argentines tried to play on (clandestine radio broadcasts from them tried to give this impression). But the Argentine line of thinking and democratic wishes couldn't work together for obvious reasons.

Bizarre line of argument. An invasion by a foreign agressor taht promises not to harm civillians could never have been ignored. Firstly did any credible body believe the promise not to harm civilians on a long term basis. Surely the human rights record of the junta utterly explodes that line of argument. Secondly it would have remained and illegal and hostile occupation which can not be tolerated under international law. The pleas of the Islanders includes their pleas not to be subject to Argentian control (harmless or otherwise).
Which European countried de-colonised a foreign territory where the domocratic will was for them to stay?

Agree. And lets be clear I would rather she and the argentinian junta had never came to power

Well two wrongs certainly don't make a right.

Good cliché but its relevance here and to any point I've made escapes me.

[seafoid]

Better bury her somewhere secret or cremate her. Someone might do what they did to Cromwell and dig her up and hang her.

Maybe they'll bury her at sea a la Bin Laden.

I have to say that it is great that she died under a Tory Government. The UK is in a real economic mess in no small part thanks to George Osborne's policies and it might not take much to get people going.
The Tories can't help lionising her but they are 10 points behind Labour in the polls already. Labour doesn't have to do anything.

Yeah it was in great nick when Labour left office in 2010, what was the note ex-Treasury Secretary Liam Byrne left for his Tory successor ? "There is no money left".

The Tories decided on austerity alone, Minder. Not Labour.
Sure Labour made mistakes but they aren't in power now. Osborne promised to bring growth back.
He can't. Thank God the Tories are running the show now. This crisis will destroy the myth
that they are economically competent.

All of which is true but Labour didn't help by emptying the coffers before they left office. If I was taking over a business I would prefer some money in the pot than starting off in debt. However Labour, like Ireland thought the good times were here to stay and adopted a spend, spend, spend policy. We know how that worked out. I am all for the welfare system but only if they got all the spongers off it and paid those who need it an amount they can live on. If someone has worked for years and paid NI contributions then 60 quid a week is some kick in the teeth.

Any polls there have been recently Labour voters have agreed the welfare state needs reformed, I think it's obvious and you don't have to be right winger to hold that view.

So does plutocracy, Minder. There are far too many talentless people at the top in the UK creaming it while the majority have to tighten their belts.
The whole economic model is banjaxed.

60 quid a week when the Tories are sucking demand out of the economy and there are as a result no jobs is just wasting talent.

[passedit]

Thatcher proposed sending Northern Ireland Catholics to the Republic
Margaret Thatcher once horrified her advisers when she suggested shipping Catholics from Northern Ireland to the Republic as solution to the Troubles.


Riots : Belfast. August 1969. Barricades in Divis Street, a man talks to troops over the barricade. (16/8/69)



The Iron Lady made the bizarre proposal in 1985, just a year after she was nearly killed in the IRA's Brighton bomb.

In late-night talks with her advisers, the Baroness said the Oliver Cromwell-style approach would not only solve the Troubles but content nationalists who "wanted to be" in the south.

The divisive recommendation was revealed by British diplomat Sir David Goodall, then adviser to Prime Minister Thatcher.

In 2001 he told a BBC documentary: "She said, if the northern [Catholic] population want to be in the south, well why don't they move over there?

"After all, there was a big movement of population in Ireland, wasn't there?

Sir David added: "Nobody could think what it was.

"So finally I said, are you talking about Cromwell, prime minister?

"She said, that's right, Cromwell."

Cromwell — dubbed the Butcher of Ireland — was responsible for the slaughter of tens of thousands in the 1640s and 1650s. His forces hounded virtually all Catholic landowners from Ulster through Parliamentary invasion.

The 15th political leader is seen as a hate figure among nationalists — much like Lady Thatcher, whose death saw republican street parties across the province.

The Conservative Prime Minister's "outrageous" plan did not stop at reviving the memory of Cromwell. She also called for the province's border with the Republic to be redrawn because it was too difficult to patrol.

Sir Charles Powell, her then private secretary, also told the programme: "She thought that if we had a straight line border, not one with all those kinks and wiggles in it, it would be easier to defend."

Despite being told of the folly of her idea, Thatcher refused to abandon it and called for a "security zone" on both sides of the border to help the British Army and RUC prevent IRA terrorists slipping over the border after attacks.

[johnneycool]

Better bury her somewhere secret or cremate her. Someone might do what they did to Cromwell and dig her up and hang her.

Maybe they'll bury her at sea a la Bin Laden.

I have to say that it is great that she died under a Tory Government. The UK is in a real economic mess in no small part thanks to George Osborne's policies and it might not take much to get people going.
The Tories can't help lionising her but they are 10 points behind Labour in the polls already. Labour doesn't have to do anything.

Yeah it was in great nick when Labour left office in 2010, what was the note ex-Treasury Secretary Liam Byrne left for his Tory successor ? "There is no money left".

The Tories decided on austerity alone, Minder. Not Labour.
Sure Labour made mistakes but they aren't in power now. Osborne promised to bring growth back.
He can't. Thank God the Tories are running the show now. This crisis will destroy the myth
that they are economically competent.

All of which is true but Labour didn't help by emptying the coffers before they left office. If I was taking over a business I would prefer some money in the pot than starting off in debt. However Labour, like Ireland thought the good times were here to stay and adopted a spend, spend, spend policy. We know how that worked out. I am all for the welfare system but only if they got all the spongers off it and paid those who need it an amount they can live on. If someone has worked for years and paid NI contributions then 60 quid a week is some kick in the teeth.

Any polls there have been recently Labour voters have agreed the welfare state needs reformed, I think it's obvious and you don't have to be right winger to hold that view.

A few years back we were being told that regulation of the financial sector was a must by all the experts yet Cameron and his mates have fought any tightening of regulation in any manner, even using his veto in Europe.

There's a lot wrong with the British economy but the ruling classes aren't being asked to make any sacrifices, if anything they're better off.

Can anyone explain how reducing the high end income tax bands on personal incomes will create more employment, other than maybe more gardeners, nanny's and cleaners?

[sheamy]

"Peter Mandelson said today that the only thing Margaret Thatcher ever told him was that the Irish were "all liars" and not to be trusted."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/thatcher-dubbed-all-irish-liars-mandelson-says-591549.html

Live coverage coming up on TV3 so all the liars can pay their respects.

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/live/1/

[BennyHarp]

"Peter Mandelson said today that the only thing Margaret Thatcher ever told him was that the Irish were "all liars" and not to be trusted."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/thatcher-dubbed-all-irish-liars-mandelson-says-591549.html

Live coverage coming up on TV3 so all the liars can pay their respects.

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/live/1/

Why are TV3 showing this live??