Sean Og wants pay for play

[sheamy]

ok lad, you and I could argue points from now til next year. We'd still probably disagree. It's clear we're both GAA people who feel strongly about the association.

I'll be honest. The GPA thing scares the bejasus outta me as to where it could put us in 20 years. I want my children to have the same experience that I did. I do not want us to be akin to the IRFU in any way shape or form.

We all take pride in the likes of Munster and Leinster doing well but their decision to go pro and promote an elite band of players flies 100% in what the GAA is about. They've destroyed their club structures and competitions. But they probably took the right decision for them. It's not for us. Never will be.

I agree some county boards build "bertie bowls". I hate that too. but I also have a very valid point about upgrading grounds to do with health and safety and ensuring facilities are there for future generations. It doesn't mean they don't also want player welfare.

There are those in the GPA who would like to see the games go pro. The title of this thread bears testamount to that. I don't believe all do. But we need to be very very vigilant in terms of this. It's an attractive carrot in many ways for the elite spectrum. TV rights money etc etc.

We've all seen what greed did to this country. Don't let it infect the most important organisation in this country. The GAA isn't perfect, never will be. But noone else has anything close.

[Zulu]

I've no doubt some lads would love to see it go pro and I can understand that but we can't afford it and there isn't a mechanism whereby we could. I support the GPA and I would have no problem with players getting paid if we could afford to and the competition structures didn't vary too far from what we have. But that isn't possible so we shouldn't be worrying about this and we shouldn't eye the GPA with suspicion and deal with them in a "if we give an inch they'll take a mile" manner. We should simply deal with player welfare in a mature and reasoned way because the IC players are very important and we'd be foolish to battle with our most talented and committed players on the basis of some doom merchants predicting the end of the GAA.

[sheamy]

I've no doubt some lads would love to see it go pro and I can understand that but we can't afford it and there isn't a mechanism whereby we could. I support the GPA and I would have no problem with players getting paid if we could afford to and the competition structures didn't vary too far from what we have. But that isn't possible so we shouldn't be worrying about this and we shouldn't eye the GPA with suspicion and deal with them in a "if we give an inch they'll take a mile" manner. We should simply deal with player welfare in a mature and reasoned way because the IC players are very important and we'd be foolish to battle with our most talented and committed players on the basis of some doom merchants predicting the end of the GAA.

This is the heart of the issue. You are happy to place the future of our organisation in the hands of economic matters. I am not. I think it is too important an institution to be directed purely by what is affordable and what is not. We have enough of that in our daily lives. The GAA is our escape from that.

This is the only difference between us and, at a guess, I would say it is at the source of most of the disagreements on here.

[Reillers]

I've no doubt some lads would love to see it go pro and I can understand that but we can't afford it and there isn't a mechanism whereby we could. I support the GPA and I would have no problem with players getting paid if we could afford to and the competition structures didn't vary too far from what we have. But that isn't possible so we shouldn't be worrying about this and we shouldn't eye the GPA with suspicion and deal with them in a "if we give an inch they'll take a mile" manner. We should simply deal with player welfare in a mature and reasoned way because the IC players are very important and we'd be foolish to battle with our most talented and committed players on the basis of some doom merchants predicting the end of the GAA.

This is the heart of the issue. You are happy to place the future of our organisation in the hands of economic matters. I am not. I think it is too important an institution to be directed purely by what is affordable and what is not. We have enough of that in our daily lives. The GAA is our escape from that.

This is the only difference between us and, at a guess, I would say it is at the source of most of the disagreements on here.

I don't want to see the GAA being anything other than an amateur association, that my opinion now, that like all other opinions could well change.
The GPA know that and that is not their priority. Despite some posters ramblings on here.

But as it is and probably will always be, we will never be able to afford it. Not when the Celtic Tiger was about, not now, we couldn't afford it when we were rolling in it, so to speak.

What I don't like is GAA players who play IC, is the fact that some, including most of the anti GPA lads on here, are blindly obsessed with the smallest of things they might get from playing from the game, a car, boots, free gear..etc. they play well enough, I will never begrudge anyone anything that they earn, not Joe Canning, Shefflin, Sean Og..etc. But a lot on here do. And, though they'll deny it completely, their hate of the GPA seems to be based purely on jealously and biterness, why should they earn something off it because we can't.

The IC players work like we do, they're not treated like kings, they're not raking in the money like some people on here think.
They're all struggling, like the rest of us, they don't earn money from it, either do we, they do get what they might earn from sponsorships or whatever, but they're good enough to do so, I'm certainly not going to hold anyone to that just because they're better than I am.

The GAA is an escape from everything, from everything else, but now? I don't know about you but it's hard to go in training, into the dressing room and look at places where people you grew up with, seeing where they used to sit, who up and left because they've emmigrated.
And that pull doesn't escape the IC players, or any of us. They are we, when it comes to the outside life, to unemployment, we are all out on our ear, all struggling, all deciding whether or not we should head off across the water.

So if an extra euro or so, from players welfare or whatever gives them a hand to stay, than well, I would have a fit over it. Times are tough and you do what you gotta do.

[sheamy]

Reillers, no probs with most of that. I've already stated and will again I have no problem with lads making a few quid out of playing the game at the highest level or whatever level if they do a deal with a sponsor or whatever. At the end of the day these lads are role models for our society and their images rights should not be taken from them. That has always existed in some shape or form, even from generations ago. We can all quote examples of fellas who would not be as successful as they are today had they not played Gaelic Games. We all have to do what we have to do.

I only refer you to my last post. That is the difference in the two "camps" here.

ps F**k the begrudgers (but this is not where I am coming from)

[Reillers]

Reillers, no probs with most of that. I've already stated and will again I have no problem with lads making a few quid out of playing the game at the highest level or whatever level if they do a deal with a sponsor or whatever. At the end of the day these lads are role models for our society and their images rights should not be taken from them. That has always existed in some shape or form, even from generations ago. We can all quote examples of fellas who would not be as succssful as they are today had they not played Gaelic Games. We all have to do what we have to do.

I only refer you to my last post. That is the difference in the two "camps" here.

ps F**k the begrudgers (but this is not where I am coming from)

BUt again, they argued hard in the Premiership soccer fiasco with your man John Terry, with the affair he had, now I've no time for these brats, or much for the game itself, but some papers went on about why should they been seen as role models, unfair pressure on them, they're just sportsmen..etc.
Which I think is bullshit because they get paid as much as they do, they should behave themselves and should act like the role models that they are to so many young lads across the globe.

So you could argue that it's a bit much to demand that a handful of amateur players do the same, they're not professional players..etc.
But they still do, they still wear their jersey, club or IC, with pride and as role models. And you never hear of them in the papers like you hear about some of those brats in the Premiership. They do it with more passion and respect it more because that jersey means more to them than it would ever to a soccer lad who goes where their biggest wage is.

But we demand a professional attitude, a professional performance, nothing but 100% and nothing, if you're from a top county, but success. Yet for a long time, and still today they are treated like crap, you can't expect them to be professional in every sense of the word and treat them like crap off the pitch. They're treated much better now, but they'd to fight tooth and nail for the most simple of things.

[sheamy]

Reillers, no probs with most of that. I've already stated and will again I have no problem with lads making a few quid out of playing the game at the highest level or whatever level if they do a deal with a sponsor or whatever. At the end of the day these lads are role models for our society and their images rights should not be taken from them. That has always existed in some shape or form, even from generations ago. We can all quote examples of fellas who would not be as succssful as they are today had they not played Gaelic Games. We all have to do what we have to do.

I only refer you to my last post. That is the difference in the two "camps" here.

ps F**k the begrudgers (but this is not where I am coming from)

BUt again, they argued hard in the Premiership soccer fiasco with your man John Terry, with the affair he had, now I've no time for these brats, or much for the game itself, but some papers went on about why should they been seen as role models, unfair pressure on them, they're just sportsmen..etc.
Which I think is bullshit because they get paid as much as they do, they should behave themselves and should act like the role models that they are to so many young lads across the globe.

So you could argue that it's a bit much to demand that a handful of amateur players do the same, they're not professional players..etc.
But they still do, they still wear their jersey, club or IC, with pride and as role models. And you never hear of them in the papers like you hear about some of those brats in the Premiership. They do it with more passion and respect it more because that jersey means more to them than it would ever to a soccer lad who goes where their biggest wage is.

But we demand a professional attitude, a professional performance, nothing but 100% and nothing, if you're from a top county, but success. Yet for a long time, and still today they are treated like crap, you can't expect them to be professional in every sense of the word and treat them like crap off the pitch. They're treated much better now, but they'd to fight tooth and nail for the most simple of things.

didn't we all boy, didn't we all...

[Reillers]

Reillers, no probs with most of that. I've already stated and will again I have no problem with lads making a few quid out of playing the game at the highest level or whatever level if they do a deal with a sponsor or whatever. At the end of the day these lads are role models for our society and their images rights should not be taken from them. That has always existed in some shape or form, even from generations ago. We can all quote examples of fellas who would not be as succssful as they are today had they not played Gaelic Games. We all have to do what we have to do.

I only refer you to my last post. That is the difference in the two "camps" here.

ps F**k the begrudgers (but this is not where I am coming from)

BUt again, they argued hard in the Premiership soccer fiasco with your man John Terry, with the affair he had, now I've no time for these brats, or much for the game itself, but some papers went on about why should they been seen as role models, unfair pressure on them, they're just sportsmen..etc.
Which I think is bullshit because they get paid as much as they do, they should behave themselves and should act like the role models that they are to so many young lads across the globe.

So you could argue that it's a bit much to demand that a handful of amateur players do the same, they're not professional players..etc.
But they still do, they still wear their jersey, club or IC, with pride and as role models. And you never hear of them in the papers like you hear about some of those brats in the Premiership. They do it with more passion and respect it more because that jersey means more to them than it would ever to a soccer lad who goes where their biggest wage is.

But we demand a professional attitude, a professional performance, nothing but 100% and nothing, if you're from a top county, but success. Yet for a long time, and still today they are treated like crap, you can't expect them to be professional in every sense of the word and treat them like crap off the pitch. They're treated much better now, but they'd to fight tooth and nail for the most simple of things.

didn't we all boy, didn't we all...

Didn't? Don't..

[Zulu]

This is the heart of the issue. You are happy to place the future of our organisation in the hands of economic matters.

No I'm not, but I don't agree that a professional GAA (if it was economically viable) would be the death of the GAA as we know it. Like I said, it doesn't matter whether you or I want a professional GAA or what some of the GPA might like, a professional GAA isn't going to happen. Therefore, we shouldn't deal with the GPA as a group who are hell bent on creating a professional GAA and to prevent that happening we must fight them on every issue. The paranoia about professionalism should be put to bed and should be replaced by an outlook characterised by co-operation to achieve goals that are mutually beneficial to our IC players and the GAA as a whole.

[deiseach]

Therefore, we shouldn't deal with the GPA as a group who are hell bent on creating a professional GAA and to prevent that happening we must fight them on every issue. The paranoia about professionalism should be put to bed and should be replaced by an outlook characterised by co-operation to achieve goals that are mutually beneficial to our IC players and the GAA as a whole.

Well that's very nice, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get you. The GPA is only out for one thing - the welfare of its members. There's nothing wrong with that, that's what unions / lobby groups do. That means that if the GPA explicitly excludes something that would be good for their members but bad for the GAA as a whole, they're not doing their job right. Therefore it is impossible to believe any protestations that that's not what they want.

[Zulu]

Therefore it is impossible to believe any protestations that that's not what they want

They want what, professionalism? I know a few players that are GPA members and they don't think about professionalism from one week to the next though they would all like to get paid for playing GAA. They know it isn't possible and anyone with a modicum of sense knows it isn't possible so it shouldn't colour our dealings with an important component of our organisation.

[fearglasmor]

I wouldnt put too much pass on Sean Og's statement. A player coming to the end of his career and feeling a little hard done by that his younger brouthers got an opportunity to play professional sport while he didnt.

On the other hand I think it wrong for the GAA to recognise the GPA as being a body that represents players. Every player is a member of the GAA. The function of a union is to represent the interests of a specific group of people in opposition to a controlling authority. How can we reconcile players being members of both the contolling authority and the GPA.

[deiseach]

They want what, professionalism? I know a few players that are GPA members and they don't think about professionalism from one week to the next though they would all like to get paid for playing GAA. They know it isn't possible and anyone with a modicum of sense knows it isn't possible so it shouldn't colour our dealings with an important component of our organisation.

I think they want professionalism. Why wouldn't they want it, it'd be good for them. As for it being impossible, I think they doth protest too much. Of course it's possible. Whether it's desirable is another matter. If the GPA won't have that discussion - it is, after all, impossible - then it is they who are not contributing honestly to the debate

[Zulu]

So tell me how it is possible, how do we fund it, how would we do it for both codes, and how would we get it through congress? There are far too many fundamental issues that would need to be radically changed in GAA structures for it ever be a possibility and even if all that could happen there isn't a hope it would get through congress. Christ those lads won't even vote for sensible minor alterations let alone a massive organisation changing thing like going professional.

You also seem to think the GPA is a united body, it isn't. Just like this board has people who disagree on many issues the GPA is made up of players who will have vastly differing views. In saying that, I agree most players would like a professional GAA but so would I. I'd love to make my living from coaching GAA but I know it isn't possible and I don't think that it would be good for the GAA longterm so I couldn't support any moves to turn it professional. I think most players would have similar feelings, i.e. it would be nice for me but isn't sustainable and wouldn't be good for the GAA as a whole and therefore I won't actively seek it.

Not to get too dramatic about it but the cold war dragged on, in part, because two countries thought the other was out to get them, when in reality neither was the evil force they painted the other to be. We don't need to aggravation in the GAA between administrators and players, we need co-operation. Unless people can show me how a professional GAA can come into existence then I think it is time to stop talking nonsense about professionalism and get down to talking about the best way forward for the GAA. We have real problems like championship structures, lack of presence in many cities, refereeing standards etc. so we don't need to be sidetracked by paranoid delusions.

[deiseach]

You make some good points, Zulu, so I'm not going to relentlessly fisk what you say. Your observation re the GPA not being a monolith is particularly well made.

But I can't get away from the fact that that GPA is not doing it's job right if it is not exclusively thinking of the wellbeing of the its own membership. You say that we don't need aggravation between administrators and officials, but the GPA is in istself a source of aggravation. GPA members are all members of the GAA yet GAA administrators are not members of the GPA, so of course there is going to be friction. Issues like championship structures, lack of presence in many cities, refereeing standards . . . what exactly can the GPA bring to those issues that its members couldn't have done as members of the GAA? And why should we give their opinions more weight? To paraphrase the peasant in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, I didn't vote for you.

(One should note in the interests of full disclosure that I'm not a member of the association, so people can give my opinion zero weight  )

Saying that professionalism is a distraction isn't going to make the issue go away. People choose not to forget, and dismissing that as paranoid delusions isn't a good strategy for making them forget.