Sean Og wants pay for play

[cornafean]

Today's Irish Daily Mail :

"The GAA last night came under increasing pressure to consider paying players as two more inter -county players called for a controversial rethink. Kerry footballer Kieran Donaghy and Aisake O hAilpin have joined Aisake's brother Sean Og in calling for some form of professionalism in Gaelic games."

That's like something Alan Partridge would come up with.

[bingobus]

Zulu, I get what you saying but I think the IC players/CB forget how much they rely on the clubs for support. They majority go to IC matches because the club have players playing that they have the connection with. I know I wouldn't have missed in the past cause cause I had friends/flatmates/clubmates playing. Others go regardless of this.

But I think the direct connection and accessability between club and IC draws the majority of the crowd and generates the interest from an early age that lasts a lifetime. If this connection goes, so will the crowds imho.

Plus you would see the case where big club matches would be played directly in competition to IC matches, as the club player connection would be completely gone. Will the crowd follow there club team or go chasing the paid IC team?

[Cde]

here is no workable solution Zulu. One has to give and it will be the clubs. And the IC players know this and thats what I object too.

There's a workable solution to everything surely?

Professionalism will take it to another level. In fact as someone said you'd have two organisations. Alot of clubs rely on there 1/2 real quality Intercounty players. If it goes professional then these clubs will struggle.

I think that what you're talking about there is not maintaining clubs but maintaining success and I don't see why they have to be connected. Anyway if a small club lost its two best players it would weaken the team but bigger clubs might lose 5 or 6 players and be no less weakened so the competitiveness of the club scene could remain.

If we look at soccer, there are loads of people playing club soccer and there are levels there for everyone, yet the best players go pro why couldn't our club games survive if 30 -50 players left to play at a higher level? 

The point I'm making has less to do with professionalism anyway because that isn't possible but I do think we need to look at solutions to the issues bingobus has highlighted and I can assure you it is a lot worse in other counties.

Our IC season needs to be restructured,
the provincial championships need to be binned,
the Railway cup should never see the light of day again,
restrictions should be put in placed on how many IC teams a player can play for,
dual players should be forced to choose by playing both codes on the same weekend,
the AI's should be finished by August,
and the league should be connected to the championship.

There are some radical enough proposals there but all of tehm should be implemented as quickly as possible IMO as we need to get our heads out of our asses and realize that we can't be all things to all men. Rugby and soccer are getting their acts topgether and will replace us as the main sport if we aren't careful. At the moment our IC season is a series of glorified challenge matches until July or even August and our club scene is put on hold to facilitate that farce, we have manged to make a bollocks of both them which is no small feat.

But surly thats the point Zulu. If we look at the soccer they cant sustain a professional level here.  The few clubs in the Airtricity League are almost bankrupt except the ones that made money out of the property boom. Even the clubs in England which are getting 20 - 30K attendances every week are going bust.
How would we finance 32 IC teams here in Ireland, especially when some teams are only playing less than 10 games a year.

[orangeman]

here is no workable solution Zulu. One has to give and it will be the clubs. And the IC players know this and thats what I object too.

There's a workable solution to everything surely?

Professionalism will take it to another level. In fact as someone said you'd have two organisations. Alot of clubs rely on there 1/2 real quality Intercounty players. If it goes professional then these clubs will struggle.

I think that what you're talking about there is not maintaining clubs but maintaining success and I don't see why they have to be connected. Anyway if a small club lost its two best players it would weaken the team but bigger clubs might lose 5 or 6 players and be no less weakened so the competitiveness of the club scene could remain.

If we look at soccer, there are loads of people playing club soccer and there are levels there for everyone, yet the best players go pro why couldn't our club games survive if 30 -50 players left to play at a higher level? 

The point I'm making has less to do with professionalism anyway because that isn't possible but I do think we need to look at solutions to the issues bingobus has highlighted and I can assure you it is a lot worse in other counties.

Our IC season needs to be restructured,
the provincial championships need to be binned,
the Railway cup should never see the light of day again,
restrictions should be put in placed on how many IC teams a player can play for,
dual players should be forced to choose by playing both codes on the same weekend,
the AI's should be finished by August,
and the league should be connected to the championship.

There are some radical enough proposals there but all of tehm should be implemented as quickly as possible IMO as we need to get our heads out of our asses and realize that we can't be all things to all men. Rugby and soccer are getting their acts topgether and will replace us as the main sport if we aren't careful. At the moment our IC season is a series of glorified challenge matches until July or even August and our club scene is put on hold to facilitate that farce, we have manged to make a bollocks of both them which is no small feat.

Some good points made there but it's the delivery and the solution to these that is in question.

What would you replace the provincial championships with and are you advocating that IC players only play for their county and let the club scene carry on without them ?

[Zulu]

But surly thats the point Zulu. If we look at the soccer they cant sustain a professional level here.  The few clubs in the Airtricity League are almost bankrupt except the ones that made money out of the property boom. Even the clubs in England which are getting 20 - 30K attendances every week are going bust.
How would we finance 32 IC teams here in Ireland, especially when some teams are only playing less than 10 games a year.

We can't IMO but we should debate this fully and not simply say we can't when we don't really know. The point I was making however was more in relation to lower level soccer which provides regular games to thousands of moderately talented soccer players. We should be able to do that as well but we don't and the main reason is the connection between IC and club. There could be massive advantages to having an expanded IC season that can be played seperate to the club scene and if we can afford to pay those lads then all the better, but I don't think we could. I'm not arguing for a professional GAA and I am not in favor of it but I am not against it either.

Zulu, I get what you saying but I think the IC players/CB forget how much they rely on the clubs for support. They majority go to IC matches because the club have players playing that they have the connection with. I know I wouldn't have missed in the past cause cause I had friends/flatmates/clubmates playing. Others go regardless of this.

But I think the direct connection and accessability between club and IC draws the majority of the crowd and generates the interest from an early age that lasts a lifetime. If this connection goes, so will the crowds imho.

Plus you would see the case where big club matches would be played directly in competition to IC matches, as the club player connection would be completely gone. Will the crowd follow there club team or go chasing the paid IC team?

Well I think there would still be a connection in the way that lads would like to see a young player from their own club do well at the highest level, though I accept that the bond wouldn't be as great and may weaken as the years pass. However, there are other ways it could benefit both club and county, for example part of the contract for professional players would include some coaching in the schools and back with their own clubs. In addition, in terms of retaining players if you could get paid for it then lads might continue to play for thier clubs in teh hope that they might get selected.

As for supporting both club and county, well I think that county games can be played Friday, Saturday or Sunday (day or evening) and the clubs could play their games on the evenings or days when the county isn't playing and so aviod a clash.

And this is the point I'd make, we re too quick to find faults with things in the GAA and not half as egar to find solutions. I'm not pro- or anti-professionalism, I'm not pro- or anti-Monaghan/Armagh/Mayo/Dublin/Cork/etc. GAA, what I want is a progressive GAA that will be stronger nationally and locally in 100 years than it is now. If that means seperating club and county and going professional then I'm all for it, if it means the exact opposite then I'm all for that too.

Everything should be on the table and we should debate these things and be willing to question everything in the pursuit of the best way forward because what we've before won't necessarily work in the very differnet modern Ireland.

[Zulu]

Some good points made there but it's the delivery and the solution to these that is in question.

What would you replace the provincial championships with and are you advocating that IC players only play for their county and let the club scene carry on without them ?

On the provincial championships, I'd get rid of them and link the league and championship. You get seeded on the basis of your league performance and play the championship as a all Irealnd pure knockout competition. Start the league in April and finish in May and then play the championship in June, July and August. This gives a 3 month pre-season to prepare the players properly for the league, a structured season, regular games for all IC players and a realistic chance of silverware for 90% of teams (their league). The first two rounds of the championship is palyed on the basis of seedings but form QF onwards it is open draw, this gives us back the do or die element of the championship and guarantees more novel pairings, though we are still bound to get a fair share of local match ups.

With most counties out of the championship by mid July clubs will have 2 weeks of July, all of August, September and October to get their champiionships played before winter starts to set in.

As for the IC players playing only IC well yes in a professional GAA most certainly, in the above scenario IC players should still be able to play with their clubs but I think we have to look at that as well because having a fractured, stop, start club championship to accomodate IC players isn't being pro-club IMO.

[INDIANA]

But surly thats the point Zulu. If we look at the soccer they cant sustain a professional level here.  The few clubs in the Airtricity League are almost bankrupt except the ones that made money out of the property boom. Even the clubs in England which are getting 20 - 30K attendances every week are going bust.
How would we finance 32 IC teams here in Ireland, especially when some teams are only playing less than 10 games a year.

We can't IMO but we should debate this fully and not simply say we can't when we don't really know. The point I was making however was more in relation to lower level soccer which provides regular games to thousands of moderately talented soccer players. We should be able to do that as well but we don't and the main reason is the connection between IC and club. There could be massive advantages to having an expanded IC season that can be played seperate to the club scene and if we can afford to pay those lads then all the better, but I don't think we could. I'm not arguing for a professional GAA and I am not in favor of it but I am not against it either.

Zulu, I get what you saying but I think the IC players/CB forget how much they rely on the clubs for support. They majority go to IC matches because the club have players playing that they have the connection with. I know I wouldn't have missed in the past cause cause I had friends/flatmates/clubmates playing. Others go regardless of this.

But I think the direct connection and accessability between club and IC draws the majority of the crowd and generates the interest from an early age that lasts a lifetime. If this connection goes, so will the crowds imho.

Plus you would see the case where big club matches would be played directly in competition to IC matches, as the club player connection would be completely gone. Will the crowd follow there club team or go chasing the paid IC team?

Well I think there would still be a connection in the way that lads would like to see a young player from their own club do well at the highest level, though I accept that the bond wouldn't be as great and may weaken as the years pass. However, there are other ways it could benefit both club and county, for example part of the contract for professional players would include some coaching in the schools and back with their own clubs. In addition, in terms of retaining players if you could get paid for it then lads might continue to play for thier clubs in teh hope that they might get selected.

As for supporting both club and county, well I think that county games can be played Friday, Saturday or Sunday (day or evening) and the clubs could play their games on the evenings or days when the county isn't playing and so aviod a clash.

And this is the point I'd make, we re too quick to find faults with things in the GAA and not half as egar to find solutions. I'm not pro- or anti-professionalism, I'm not pro- or anti-Monaghan/Armagh/Mayo/Dublin/Cork/etc. GAA, what I want is a progressive GAA that will be stronger nationally and locally in 100 years than it is now. If that means seperating club and county and going professional then I'm all for it, if it means the exact opposite then I'm all for that too.

Everything should be on the table and we should debate these things and be willing to question everything in the pursuit of the best way forward because what we've before won't necessarily work in the very differnet modern Ireland.

There is no way a club structure without IC players will work -none. I've seen the numbers at AIL plummet to near extinction because of it. The LOI is insolvent. Every professional structure in this country has literlally been unworkable. Rugby has 2 and a half professional teams despite being awash with money.

Good example. Last Wednesday night Vincents played Na Fianna in the SFL with all county players playing. PLace was packed. Couldn't get into Mobhi Road. Na Fianna got a huge crowd in the bar afterwards.
The same fixture took place in Vincents last year during the summer with no county players. Barely 50 people there. As I said the club scene will die a sorry death without them.

[Tony Baloney]

The hard fact is the GAA are breaching no contracts. Every county player gets involved in full knowledge of the term and conditions. If they don't like the T&C they are quite within their rights to walk away and let someone else fill their place.

[Zulu]

It's dying a death as it is Indiana, you seem to be equating the health of the club scene with crowds, I on the other hand equate with playing numbers and a good structure. My playing days are coming to an end but I know I'd prefer to play and train with 25 other lads on a regular basis with games set in stone (more or less) than training with 14 lads for a game some time in the future which is as of yet unfixed and could be cancelled a week before it if the county team draw a championship game.

The hard fact is the GAA are breaching no contracts. Every county player gets involved in full knowledge of the term and conditions. If they don't like the T&C they are quite within their rights to walk away and let someone else fill their place.

They might get someone to replace them but nobody will watch.

[Logan]

Ok ... My Solution for Professional GAA is go to a Super 12.

Split the Country into 12 (Ancient Domains) Teams and play a Hurling and Football Super League

Champions League style - Home and Away fixtures with Play offs, 22 Games and play-off's.



Big style, money, girls, cheer leaders and fireworks ... let's go for the money boys!
There's SO many benefits to it.

There'll be no grass roots, but who really cares about that?

[Zulu]

I presume that's tongue in cheek Logan?

There's no way we could do both codes as professional sports and I see no reason why the GAA would be unique in world sport in that the lower levels would disintegrate if there was a professional tier.

[Logan]

Yes and no.

IF (and it's a big if) the GAA decided to go professional - that's the only way it could work.

The country could support 12 Football teams of 30 players (360 players) and 8 Hurling teams of 30 players (240) on a salary of 50k a year.

That would be 600 players on an average of 30k = 18 million.

Now a rookie would come in on 18k a year, a quality player might hit 50K plus all his endorsements - surely the GAA could manage that kind of money initially?

Imagine how the standard of play would improve and how the TV would have to improve to present it.
There would be alot more investment on all sides.


Grass roots would be a concern though - you'd have to rely more and more on the Government to support them - but not much more different than soccer or rugby are now.

[Zulu]

Don't think a dual code professional system could work, the only way professionalism is possible would be to go with football and leave hurling as an amateur sport. If you're professional you'd have to maximise your propmotional opportunities and the one organization couldn't do it for both codes. In addition for a county like Limerick, they'd need to get in a good few non-Limerick men to make them competitive and I don't think Limerick folk would support that team with any real loyalty. Football might work with restrictions on the amount of transfers allowed into a county, not sure if that is possible but we'd have to retain the majority of squad members coming from each county itself for it to be a runner IMO. Unlike rugby they are competing against foreign teams so any reasonable Irish representation allows us to easily support them, I don't think a Tyrone team made up of primarily Armagh, Derry and Down men would easily generate support from any of those counties.

In saying that less teams means greater quality and bigger potential fan bases so you'd never know, which brings me back to my original point. We should discuss these things even if we all accept they are unlikely in the foreseeable future because we need to think about what the future might hold rather than simply saying x, y or z definitely won't work because none of us know what will or won't work for sure.

[Rossfan]

I read of an interview with Mick O'Connell ( pre 2002 player from Kerry) where the interviewer asked him( expecting a resounding NOOOO)  would he have liked if the GAA was professional to which he replied "of course I would. Standards  would have risen as players could devote all their time to the game "

Would be interested to read that interview Rosfan - where did you read it. Sounds at odds with anything I ever heard Mick O'Connell say on the subject. Are you sure you are not mixing him up with the other Kerry Micko who would probably look for back pay if professionalsim ever came in!!!

Can't remeber what paper it was in ...about 10 years ago but it sticks in my mind because I would have expected him to say NOOOOO!!!! as well.
Mind you he was a perfectionist so it would be logical to expect him to be in favour of anything which would improve the quality of the game.

The other Micko would lose a fortune if professionalism ever came in ...imagine all the Tax/PRSI and Levies he's have to pay 

[Logan]

Don't think a dual code professional system could work, the only way professionalism is possible would be to go with football and leave hurling as an amateur sport. If you're professional you'd have to maximise your propmotional opportunities and the one organization couldn't do it for both codes.

Dual code would work fine.
It would be more about how many Hurling teams you'd have.
You'll only really get 6 or max 8 big Super hurling teams in the country. I think you could support them financially.

In addition for a county like Limerick, they'd need to get in a good few non-Limerick men to make them competitive and I don't think Limerick folk would support that team with any real loyalty.

You're thinking about counties - forget about that.
I'm talking about a Super league of 12 teams - big areas and huge populations
Think of bigger catchment areas emcompassing places like Meath&Westmeath. An area like that could easily support 30 players finanically.

Football might work with restrictions on the amount of transfers allowed into a county, not sure if that is possible but we'd have to retain the majority of squad members coming from each county itself for it to be a runner IMO. Unlike rugby they are competing against foreign teams so any reasonable Irish representation allows us to easily support them, I don't think a Tyrone team made up of primarily Armagh, Derry and Down men would easily generate support from any of those counties.

Again, stop thinking county.
And even if you think about it, if it's marketed right people will support who they want to or like - especially once there is a transfer system in place and salary cap.

Once a year have the State of Origin game too - awesome strategy!

In saying that less teams means greater quality and bigger potential fan bases so you'd never know, which brings me back to my original point. We should discuss these things even if we all accept they are unlikely in the foreseeable future because we need to think about what the future might hold rather than simply saying x, y or z definitely won't work because none of us know what will or won't work for sure.

Exactly!

I do think it's possible on that scale and I think it would be great for the game at the top table.

Grass roots would be an issue still though.